Selects: Child Labor: Not Funny

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Hey, everybody, this is Josh, and for this week's Select, I've chosen our August 2021 episode on child labor.

It's one of those rare episodes that contains a mention of an episode that we should do that we actually did, the newsie strike.

So it's significant for that reason.

And it is a fairly bleak episode, as you might guess, but it also goes to show how far we've come.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast.

I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W.

Chuck Bryant and Jerry's out there hovering around in the digital

weird audio ether.

And this is stuff you should know.

This is gonna be a good, uplifting, fun one, a bouncy light one.

I think so.

And it's, you know hot off the presses from our uh

my daughter just wrote this episode for us yeah yeah in record time too i was impressed

you didn't pay her did you no uh but it's funny i went to look up you know i've talked before about you know the fact that i started working when i was 13 at a barbecue restaurant uh-huh and uh minimum wage when i started working was three dollars and 35 cents an hour wow we how far we've come

yeah not far They've doubled it in the past whatever, 40 years.

Isn't that nuts, dude?

Yeah, and we'll get to that, but I have a list of kind of where we ended up with minimum wage along the years.

But yeah, JJ's barbecue, $3.35 an hour, baby.

Wow.

That's pretty great.

My first

job was even younger than that.

I was like nine or 10 when I was a paper boy.

Yeah, I mean, I couldn't have made more than, because I was only, it's not like I was working every night.

I was working weekends.

I probably made like less than $50 a week.

But I mean, you're 13.

What were you spending it on?

13 in like a good, clean Christian kid.

You weren't spending that on anything.

Archie Comics.

It buys a lot of Archie comics.

Yeah, it does.

Yes, it does.

Although they have a lot of variations.

So you could easily spend $50 a week on Archie Comics.

Back then, though, those things were cheap.

I was living high on the hog.

So it sounds like it, man.

So our buddy Dave helped us out with this one, Dave Ruse.

And he makes a really good point that you and I sitting around talking about, you know, you made 50 bucks a week.

I was a paper boy.

Like whatever stresses and troubles that we ran into post, you know, 1970 something,

as far as our first jobs go when we were younger, that does not qualify as child labor.

That's that's not really what we're talking about here today.

It's called a kid having a job.

Exactly.

It's called, you just stop your griping right now because there are actual kids out there who are like real deal child laborers who work in like dangerous conditions for little to no pay, who don't get to play, who may not socialize with other kids their age.

They may live and work in a mining camp with nothing but adults and grown-ups.

Like

they would kill for a JJ's barbecue job, basically.

Yeah, and this is a good time to be talking about that in particular because this is 2021 as the International Year for the Elimination of Child Labor.

And as you'll see throughout this episode, we've made a lot of strides here in the U.S.

But like you said, it's not

that way everywhere, and it should be.

And I should say.

It's probably a little off the mark to say that a child laborer would kill for a better job.

They would probably kill to just not have to work at all in general and just to get to be a kid.

And I think ultimately for people who are activists against child labor, that's the goal.

It's to not like get better working conditions for six-year-olds.

It's to like just make six-year-olds not have to work any longer.

And we'll talk about how to solve that, how that

International Year for the Elimination of Child Labor aims to do that.

They have some pretty pragmatic ideas.

And so hopefully

this episode will have a nice bow on the end, but we're going to have to slog through some misery to get there, Chuck.

Take it away.

There's no better place to slog through misery than the founding of this country.

Way back in the old days when the new world was new and settlers came over and they very much believed.

And why did I think this was Ed?

You said this is Dave?

Yeah, I'm almost positive it was Dave.

What was Ed?

It reads like a Dave to me, but oh man, if it's Ed, I'm sorry.

Sorry to both of us.

Well, sure.

We need to get those guys together one day.

I I think the university.

Or maybe we should keep them far apart.

Yeah, exactly.

They might turn against us.

Yeah, so they believe very much that the idol's hands were the devil's workshop, that old saying.

And, you know, this is one of those, it was kind of hard for me to,

you know, let's just lop off, you know, developing nations today, which is clearly awful.

I found myself as an adult more and more with the cultural relativism thinking, like, obviously five-year-olds shouldn't be working in factories.

But when I read about like 12 and 13 year olds working hard back then, I was kind of like,

it's not great, but it was, that's just kind of how it was at the time.

If you had parents that were farmers, you're not going to, you know, be just hanging out until your sweet 16th birthday, having a good time.

You're going to be working from a pretty young age.

And I found myself more and more thinking like, you know, in certain situations, that wasn't the worst thing.

But then you get to the industrial Revolutions, and that's what things really got bad.

But kind of early on, that's really what we were talking about:

a lot of kids working on the farms, a lot of boys working on the farm, girls working in the house alongside their sisters and mom.

And this kind of started when they were about 13 years old.

They were sort of expected to either go work and get a job and work full-time or to become an apprentice, an unpaid apprentice, to work for food and board and training.

And I think also, in addition to that Protestant work ethic of

just completely in the fabric of America that was just coming out in you, it's also this idea of like, what else are you going to do?

It's not like you can sit around and play video games or watch TV or do almost anything else except just play outside.

But, Chuck, I went back and looked to see if it was always this way.

And apparently, in medieval England, you played basically until you hit puberty, and then you started to get put to work.

When you hit puberty at four, right?

More like 14, but like there was like a childhood, and it seems to have been somewhat wiped out by that Protestant work ethic that the Puritans brought over.

Or at the very least, it was set back a little more, you know, age-wise, where you started working maybe a little sooner than you would have had you been in medieval England at the time.

Right.

I think I guess I'm just trying to draw a line between

life in the 1640s and then life in 1938 when we eventually did something about it in the U.S.

Yeah, no, totally.

And there is an enormous distinction between that because it was, it was like widespread, but it just, it seemed like they were mostly working with their families and it was just kind of the way that things were.

That was how life was.

Yeah, to try and like keep your family alive.

It's not like,

you know, they were, they were trying to just all survive, basically.

Right.

And that's actually the reason why it's still around in other parts of the world today.

It's not even necessarily like a work ethic where children should work because idle hands are the devil's playthings, like the Puritans thought.

It said it's like,

this is an extra worker we can have go out and make money to keep the rest of the family alive.

Yeah.

We just don't have a choice in not doing that.

And that's what drives it still today.

Right.

When the Industrial Revolution came around,

and we're talking about basically cotton factories in a big, big way,

there were a lot of little kids working there, and people like George Washington and Alexander Hamilton thought that was awesome.

They did.

And like, we're going to be skewered for even suggesting that Hamilton said this, but he did.

He said that women and children in America would be, quote, rendered more useful by manufacturing establishments than they otherwise would be.

And I think what he was saying is like

i'm not even going to paraphrase what he was saying i think it's it you can understand it on its face yeah he's saying what you know they're not doing much use for us these kids and he's mainly talking about kids here who would otherwise quote who would otherwise be idle uh this isn't lynn mel manuel miranda saying this we all love him no this isn't he didn't say this in a charming rap No, this is the real Alexander Hamilton.

And again, it was just a different time.

But even way back then, in the early 1800s, not everyone thought this was a great thing.

There was a future mayor of Boston named Josiah Quincy.

Damon Joe Quimby

who toured a cotton factory, a cotton spinning factory, and they had, you know, four-year-olds working there all the way to 10,

maybe 10, 12 hours a day for anywhere from 12 to 25 cents a day, not an hour.

Right.

And he said,

compassion calls us to pity these little creatures plying in a contracted room among flyers and cogs at an age when nature requires for them air, space, and sports.

There was a dull dejection in the countenance of all of them.

And,

you know, we'll get to some of these photos of some of these kids later on.

When you look at them, they look like beaten-down miniature adults.

Yeah.

Yeah, they really do.

They look like us.

Exactly.

They look ready to retire.

They look unhappy.

They look,

yeah, just beaten down.

But they're miniature and they're kids, they're children.

And it's really upsetting to see that, a photograph of that.

I'm sure it's even more upsetting to see it in real life.

And that's actually how

a lot of change came through is just people being exposed to seeing that and kind of being shocked, having their conscience shocked.

But as

potentially like bad as it was for the children of colonial America who were forced to work,

it got way, way worse when the second industrial revolution kicked off, the one powered by steam and steel and railroads and little hands and unbridled capitalism.

When you inject unbridled capitalism into

an economy that allows for child labor, you can imagine that things are going to get much, much worse for the children before it finally gets better.

That's right.

And things did get worse.

When all of a sudden you have a robust steel industry and coal mining industry,

you have railroads that need this stuff in a big, big way.

And they,

you know, partially kind of ran out of workers and partially just saw what was right underneath their noses, which is these kids who they, at this point, they had long known that they could work and farm and work hard.

So they said, you know what?

A lot of these families in rural America, farming dried up a bit, so they moved to the city.

A lot of it was immigrant labor as

millions of people came into the country from Europe fleeting their poverty, famine-stricken countries.

And no matter where they came from, it was all under the thumb of the Robber Barons, which was, I can't remember when we did it.

It feels like a few, two or three years ago, but a pretty good podcast on the Robber Barons.

Yeah, and we also talked about them in our book.

We talked about keeping up with the Joneses.

They played a big role in that too.

But yeah, so like these, the Robber Barons got rich through innovation, through consolidation, through some pretty clever stuff.

A lot of them invented new techniques or processes or procedures.

So like they definitely were doing something.

They were being productive, but they also got to be filthy rich off of the backs of immigrant labor, child labor that they directly exploited.

And

it was basically like

there was just nobody looking out for anybody else at this time.

It was just such a period of such enormous economic insurgence that

there weren't anybody, or there wasn't anybody who was sitting there saying, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, everybody, we need to stop and really think about this and do this in a much more directed, smarter, healthier way for our society.

It was like,

it was like, just go, go.

Let's see where this takes us.

And a lot of people got trampled underfoot, and that definitely included children laborers or child laborers.

That's right.

And I think that's a good good time for a break.

Yay?

Yay.

That's two yays.

Any nays?

So we'll be back and we'll talk a little bit about what some of these jobs might have been in the late 19th century for these kids right after this.

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I wonder how many gallons of coffee everyone who has listened to this show since the beginning has heard me drink.

I didn't even hear you drinking.

Oh, you didn't?

When I said, uh-uh, I had a mouthful of cafe.

Oh, interesting.

I have no shirt on.

Nice.

That's awesome, man.

You just topped mine.

You said that's not true.

I think you should have left it mysterious, Chuck, because there were a few people out there who were about to email and say, I was offended that Chuck said he wasn't wearing a shirt.

Yeah.

No, I put it on right before he recorded.

I had it off.

It's a little hot.

I felt like I needed to dress up, put the t-shirt on.

Right.

Are you wearing one of those tuxedo shirt t-shirts?

I think you ever had one of those.

Did you ever have one?

No, I didn't.

No, I didn't either.

You didn't?

You didn't wear them with your rainbow suspenders?

No,

that stuff was a little too cutesy even for me.

Gotcha.

Okay.

What about the one

that looks like I would wear it?

Okay.

What about one that looks like a like a ripped like chest and abdomen?

Have you ever worn a t-shirt like that?

No, those are fun though.

For certain people.

They're fun.

They're also like really good at boosting your ego quietly.

Sure.

There's nothing like me looking in a mirror at my beer belly covered in spray-painted abs.

It really works.

Your brain, the brain is so dumb that it falls for it every time, I can attest.

All right, so we were going to talk about what some of these jobs might be, and it kind of really depended on where you were living.

If you lived in a city or if you lived in a company town where they had these factories, you were going to be working in factories.

If you lived out in the rural areas, you're going to be working on farms.

And most Americans still lived on farms at the time.

So

most child labor took place on farms.

But if you were on that farm, you're going to be picking cotton and tobacco.

You're going to be be picking a lot of stuff and doing all the sort of

stuff that goes on after the picking, which is.

Stemming, DC.

Yeah.

All that stuff.

Shucking.

And stuff I did when I was a kid.

We had a big, big garden, and my mom took us to the cannery.

And it was awful.

I hated it.

She took you to the cannery, like, for a sightseeing trip or for work?

To can.

So, like, there was a cannery that your mom went to.

You guys had so much stuff you had to go to a second location to can it?

There was a cannery in DeKalb County,

a sort of industrial cannery for the people.

Okay.

And we would take green beans and corn, and

we made preserves and all kinds of stuff.

And they had like, and you know, you could can your own junk there.

Sounds like a lot of utopia.

And yeah, and we would, you know, put Sharpie, like beans on the can on Sharpie and put it in the pantry.

Huh, that's really interesting.

It's really interesting.

I had no idea that there was a cannery in DeKalb County.

Yeah, not too far from where I live now, actually.

It's like 15 minutes away, probably.

Do you shudder every time you pass it?

I do a little, actually.

I don't pass it much, but it's over near the dog pound where you can go adopt a dog.

And so I think we adopted Nico there.

And I drove by the cannery and just like, ugh.

Yeah, I'll bet.

It was hot.

Well, you were lucky you weren't five or six and left there to work all day, every day, aren't you?

Yes.

You know?

For almost no money.

Yeah.

Pennies for a bucket of whatever you shucked or shelled or did whatever, peeled.

Yeah, working at a cannery would probably not have been very fun.

There were also furnace stoking jobs available, whether you wanted them or not.

What else, Chuck?

Well, kids did work in canneries.

They also worked in textile mills.

They had bobbin boys and bobbin girls.

This one doesn't sound so bad to me, but I'm sure I'm missing something something that makes it atrocious well i mean they would climb up on the machine and remove the bobbins the full bobbins and replace them with empty ones so i don't think that was like the worst job in the world but uh when you're doing that for 10 or 12 hours a day and you're six it's right it's probably a bit of a buzzkill yeah yeah i have an a problem inherently with child labor in general not

like having a job like you or i had first jobs i got no problem with that but child child any kind of child labor even if it is kind of cush comparatively.

No, I agree.

That one wasn't terrible.

It may have been dangerous, though.

I don't know.

There's no way.

It's how those bobbins were.

Yeah, there's no way it wasn't dangerous.

It had to have been dangerous.

We're talking about the 19th century in industry.

It was dangerous in some way.

There was no OSHA.

No.

No one knew that it was.

If you did live in the city and did work around factories,

you would do that.

But there were also plenty of other jobs.

You could deliver, like be essentially, they call them telegraph boys, sort of delivering, you know, emails basically by hand to people all over town.

You could shine shoes.

You could sell newspapers like you did.

I didn't stand on the street corner.

I was in a newsie, which we'll talk a little more about newsies in a second.

I was a delivery boy and not a really great one either.

I frequently overslept and was not good at delivering papers.

My mom and my oldest sister would have to do my route once in a while.

Is this a bike deal?

Yes.

Okay.

And

the thing is, is like they also make you shake down the people for their delinquent subscriptions.

So I was like a strong arm guy, too, for the Toledo Blade as well.

I want my $2.

Basically, that's exactly right.

And that was right in my wheelhouse, too.

I was like, this hits a little too close to home for me to laugh at that kid.

I know what he's going through.

I've had to put my foot in somebody's door before to get their $2.

Didn't ask for a dime.

Yeah, I haven't seen that in a while.

Oh, that was a good movie.

Yeah.

Classic.

If you lived in the mountains of Appalachia, you might have been a breaker boy

or a mule handler.

And breaker boys will get, I guess we can go ahead and tell everyone what that is.

Sure.

You would sit around and break apart lumps of coal into uniform pieces all day long.

Yep.

And break dance on your brakes.

Yeah, breaker boys.

But that was it.

And they wouldn't let you wear wear gloves while you were a breaker boy, too, because they're like, no, no, you can't break these things as uniformly if you wear gloves, you stupid kid.

So

you have to basically absorb all of this coal dust into your skin, get all sorts of little cuts and calluses and all that by the time you're six, seven, eight,

and just do this.

This is your life now.

Welcome to Pennsylvania.

Right.

Then let's say you managed to escape all forms of formal jobs.

Your parents, they didn't make you go to the factory.

You did live in the city, so you didn't have to work on a farm.

And you might think you just had it

made in the shade.

Not so, because there was plenty of jobs that you could do right there from your cruddy little tenement apartment, like weaving baskets or making paper flowers or hand rolling cigars and cigarettes all day long and selling them.

Yeah, it was like, you know, your whole family worked on a farm, or if you lived in a tenement, your whole family worked, you know, in what are called tenement industries.

So there was basically not a lot of escape.

I get the impression that you basically had to have wealthy parents to not be forced into child labor at the time.

Yeah, and I might have mentioned this once before.

My mom did a thing for a little while where

we would

make money doing like stuffing envelopes.

Mm-hmm.

Did you remember that stuff?

I do.

And I don't even remember what it was for.

I guess they were for companies.

Okay.

I want to say Easter Seals had people do that too, but I'm sure they didn't pay.

They're notorious.

They're not cheap.

So this would be like a company that would have like a packet they would send out that had like five things in it.

I gotcha.

And we would be responsible for getting all that stuff in huge boxes, assembling it all into the envelopes that they could mail, and we would get paid as a family to do that.

That's cute.

That's super late 70s, early 80s.

Like I can see your mom talking on the princess phone, making all the arrangements for them to ship that to her and getting the instructions, you know, and then hanging up and that 50-foot-long cord just kind of coils up on its own quietly on the floor.

Yeah, and I didn't mind that so much because I made a little money, and that's something I could do while I watched television.

Yeah, totally.

Totally.

Which is the perfect job, as we all know.

Yeah, not exactly a high-pressure job, it sounds like.

I wouldn't even know if that qualifies as a tenement industry, to tell you the truth.

No, not in the 1970s.

No.

You had a lot of jobs, though, as a kid.

Good for you.

That Protestant always wanted my own money.

Protestant work ethic shining through like like a city upon a hill.

Should we talk newsies?

Yeah, we should.

And I think also the newsy strike that we're going to mention deserves its own episode, at least shortly,

if not its own episode.

Okay, so

yeah, let's just not talk about newsies.

No.

No, I thought the same thing.

And the more I got into the strike, I was like, this is just too much.

We got to do something.

But the idea was that little boys would buy a stack of newspapers wholesale for about 50 cents per 100.

Girls too.

I saw girls that did it too.

Oh, girls did it too.

All right.

And they sold them for a penny apiece.

So they would make half a penny per paper

selling in the big cities, especially New York City, of course.

And then eventually in 1899, they did go on strike.

And it was a big deal.

It kind of ground,

I mean, it didn't grind them to a complete halt, but it really disrupted their flow in getting newspapers into the hands of people.

dude that their sales over this two-week strike went down two-thirds yeah like they brought the they brought Pulitzer Pulitzer and Hearst to their knees basically these newsies did and they got some concessions too yeah and I think the deal was is that morning subscribers were generally subscribers or the morning paper was generally for subscribers but it was that afternoon paper that second edition that the newsies really raked it in on because most people didn't subscribe to that.

Right.

And so they really weren't selling any second editions hardly.

And the one big concession they got, which was huge, was they got them to agree to full buybacks on unsold papers, which is a really, really big deal.

But it also really kind of goes to show you how much the

newspaper barons believed newsies were scrappy enough that they wouldn't just sit around and be like, I don't have to sell these.

You know, I don't have to worry about this.

You know, they'll be bought back anyway.

I don't have to work to sell them.

Well, but buyback just means they give them back the money they paid for them.

It's not like

they would make any money.

They would just, in fact, it incentivized them, I think, to take out more papers

and sell more papers because they knew they wouldn't be stuck with them.

Yeah, totally.

We'll probably edit that part out.

So one of the things you mentioned was making cigars like in your family's one-room apartment in, say, New York or something like that, right?

Yeah, and that was apparently really bad.

In that, not only did you work long hours for very little pain, cramped working conditions with your family on top of everything else,

you would frequently come down with nicotine poisoning as a little kid because you're rolling cured, sometimes you're handling uncured tobacco,

and you're ingesting lots of nicotine through your skin at the time, like, you know, in a single day and so you might be nauseated you might be dizzy you might turn green it can get worse than that too you actually can suffer respiratory distress as well and apparently this is a big problem still with child laborers in zimbabwe because i think about 20 years ago that country doubled down on their tobacco production and now it's like one of the biggest

the biggest exports of Zimbabwe.

But it's also a very poor country, so they use child labor a lot.

And so children are still to this day being exposed to tobacco.

And they're rolling, they're handling tobacco, they're rolling stuff, they're rolling cigars, they're sorting it.

They're just the kids and tobacco should not be in the same room together, basically.

Yeah, you know, it never occurred to me that

I guess it would be a transdermal ingestion, right?

Yeah, totally.

But sure.

I mean, you put tobacco on bee stings and all kinds of things.

So of course it's going to get into their skin.

Yeah, and having gotten myself sick on tobacco a time or two in my life, I can tell you it is not pleasant.

And to do it against your will just because you're handling it for your job that you don't even want is, that sounds torturous, actually.

Yeah, I love that story.

Should you retell it for people who haven't heard it?

Are you talking about eighth grade in the tree fort?

Was that when you smoked a whole pack of cigarettes and got sick?

It was more like a pack and a half.

Okay.

It was right after I first started smoking, and I was like,

I was like, I really like how this makes me feel.

Let's see how like 30 of these things make me feel.

And I was sitting there reading comic books up in the tree fort in the woods that my friends and I had built.

And

I just went too far, man.

I felt so bad.

Oh, man.

Like, green.

Like, I felt like I looked green.

It was, it was bad news.

That's one of those moments where you like, you really wish you could have like

video footage.

Kind of.

Of what that looked like.

I kind of hope when I die, it's a little bit like defending your life.

So they can show, I'll be like, show me that one.

We can go over the other stuff, but I really want to see that clip.

Yeah, Rip Torn will be there.

Yeah.

The upshot of this, though, is do not ever start smoking.

I, I deeply regret ever having started smoking as a kid, as an adult.

It doesn't matter.

Like, just don't ever start smoking and do yourself a real favor.

You did a great job quitting, though, and you never looked back.

Nope, I didn't.

Good job.

It was surprisingly easy.

Because I was worried.

Hold on, one more thing.

I think if there are people out there who are considering smoking right now and are worried about the time they're going to have, one of my big worries was that I was going to spend every day of the rest of my life wishing for a cigarette.

And that's just not how it goes.

Like you, you spend a week, two weeks, if it's really bad, maybe three weeks really longing for a cigarette, and then it starts to get easier and easier.

And then eventually you're grossed out by the thought of cigarettes and people smoking cigarettes around you, and you don't ever want to see one again.

So, if that's what's keeping you from quitting, don't let it because that's not how it is.

I like that.

Good PSA.

Thanks, man.

Thanks.

I think before we break, maybe we'll just go over some of these final stats here.

At the basically the peak, and about 1900,

by 1890, one out of every five kids under 16 was working.

1.7 million kids under 16

was 6% of the total workforce in the 1900 census.

And that's just kids who were registered to work in these factories.

Like that does not include these kids rolling cigars in their house or the kids on the family farm.

So it was much, much higher than that.

Yeah, because I think two-thirds of kids

in general in the country worked in agriculture.

So yeah, if they were not counting agriculture, they missed out on a lot of kids in that number.

And that's still a staggering number in and of itself, 1.7 million.

Yeah, and if you're wondering back then what effect this had on education, just a snapshot from Philadelphia in 1900, 15% of 13-year-old boys had left school to work.

And I think half of 15-year-old boys were not in school anymore because they were working.

Or the and like a significant portion because they were naughty.

Right.

Yeah, and they just didn't want to do anything.

But get this, this is the staggering one to me.

17-year-old boys, only 10% of them were still in school in 1900 in Philadelphia.

That does not bode well for the future of

an economy.

And I think that actually is one reason why public education became so much more compulsory.

And one reason why people came around to anti-child labor laws is the idea that, no, there's a lot more that they could be doing than just working in a factory almost literally their entire lives.

Like, we can do better and we can build

a better society and a better economy if we invest in their education instead of robbing them of it.

All right.

I guess we'll take a break and talk about when that started in earnest.

And it wasn't just then when you mentioned it.

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So, Chuck,

it turns out that there were, so the progressive era is one of my favorite eras, or I should say the people from the progressive era are some of my favorite people, like Frances Perkins.

Although she was a second or third wave progressive reformer, but she was inspired by some of these earlier ones who were working on things like

fair wages, like a minimum wage, minimum or maximum work days or working hours.

And then they also trained their sites on things like ending child labor, or at the very least,

really restricting the amount of work a kid could do, especially

in regards to them being in school, too.

The idea was to put school first, and then if the kid had the wherewithal or their parents really needed the money or something like that, they could let them work in addition to school.

But the school needed to come first.

And this is really radical.

I mean, it seems radical.

We had kids rolling cigars in their one-room apartment in New York their whole lives.

And now all of a sudden some people are coming up and be like, no, no, no, kids should be in school and then maybe working, preferably not working.

So how do we make that happen?

Yeah, it was a very big deal.

And most of these, or a lot of them, were women, people like Jane Addams and Julia Lathrup and Lillian Ward,

anti-poverty measures.

And this is stuff that...

you know, they would also go on to champion women's rights and women's rights in the workforce and women's rights to vote.

So it was the whole progressive movement was kind of tied up in all these, you know, radical ideas about, you know, being fair and good, decent human beings.

Right.

Yeah.

Radical stuff.

So

here's the problem is you've got these robber barons and these factory owners and then these industrialists who are like, wait a minute, we got a good deal going because we don't have to pay these kids much.

They're probably not going to unionize.

Like the Newsies thing was definitely an anomaly.

Yeah.

That didn't happen much.

And he said they were like,

we got a good thing going.

And so we're going to lobby against this as hard as we can.

But surely they were unsuccessful, right?

No, they were successful.

They did.

They blocked a lot of legislation early on for this kind of regulation.

Federally, states,

you know, it kind of depends on where it was, but states did establish child labor commissions.

And some states had some minimum ages, minimum or maximum hours, and minimum wages.

It was, they were sparse.

I couldn't find what states passed it, but for the most part,

there was a, probably, for the most part, though, there was a lot of pushback and enough pushback among the states, the residents of the states, that not a lot got passed.

So there was that progressive movement that started, say, in like the 1890s.

And it had to, it basically, like any progressive movement, it ran full steam ahead, hit a huge wall of industry, and then had to slowly just keep pushing and pushing and chugging and chugging and keeping at it for a few decades before it was successful.

And one of the ways that it became successful, or the way that it kept pushing at it after it hit that wall of industry, is a group called the National Child Labor Committee formed.

And I think they formed back in 1904.

And they were basically, they became a lobbying group to lobby against the lobbying against child labor laws that ended child labor.

Yeah.

Yeah, and they had a pretty smart way to get attention.

And that was in hiring a photographer named Louis Hine

to go around and sneakily document what was going on with his camera.

He worked as a sociologist and a teacher and then later became a photographer or was also a photographer.

And

I think he himself was a kid who was working 12, 13 hour days.

So he was like, let me start taking pictures of these kids.

And maybe that, because, you know, that's worth a thousand words, they say.

At least.

And he took 5,000.

Yeah.

So that means that he took 50,000 words.

No.

5,000?

I'm just kidding.

500?

No, I know.

Trying to undermine your confidence in your math.

It was totally wrong.

It was purposefully wrong, though.

Let me just do that real quick.

Do to do, carry the one.

He took 5 million words.

That's a lot of words.

And if you go back, you've probably seen a bunch of these pictures.

If you've seen pictures of very unhappy kids outside of a coal mine or standing on mountains of shucked oysters or standing around factory machines like little men sure adults, they were probably Lewis Hines' photos.

Yeah, I mean, 5,000 photos all archived in the Library of Congress, from what I understand.

And he had like a really great eye to begin with.

So like they're really great photographs in and of themselves.

But, you know, you don't have to sit there and

try to really contemplate it.

It just hits you immediately what you're looking at and how sad what you're looking at is.

And so, he and the National Child Labor Committee got these into newspapers.

And, like you said,

he was very sneaky.

He would pose as different things.

One of them made sense to me, the industrial machinery photographer.

Okay.

Yeah.

Got that.

But what excuse would a Bible salesman have for taking photographs of the kids at the factory?

I could not find that to save my life.

I mean, the only thing I would could think is that got him in the door.

And then maybe he was like, and I just love kids.

And can I take some pictures?

But I don't know.

And this is a time before Stranger Danger, I guess.

So they were like, sure.

I mean, they're child laborers.

I don't care about them.

Yeah.

He also

wore a special jacket where he had the buttons on the jacket aligned in known measurements.

So if he went over and stood, like he would take a kid's picture and he would ask, you know, they're documented like their names and their ages and stuff as best he could, but he would go stand next to them if he felt like he couldn't outright ask what their age was to kind of tip off that maybe he was not a Bible salesman.

Right.

And, you know, if the kid went up to the second or third button, he would know roughly how tall they were or no, he would know how tall they were, then roughly how old they were.

Right.

The other thing they were giants.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

I'm sure, you know, he didn't get them all right.

But, you know, you can't win them all.

But the other thing that made that jacket special, Chuck, was that the lining was made of a t-shirt of a ripped chest and abdomen.

And it would make him feel really good about himself when he put that jacket on.

Oh, that's good.

Nice call back.

When did things finally change, though?

Well, they started to kind of change.

Like these pictures shocked the conscience of the the nation when they when they saw them, when they made them into newspapers and they were accompanied by muck-raking articles about how bad these conditions were and, you know, shame on you, America, for turning a blind eye to this kind of thing.

But it wasn't like an instantaneous switch was thrown.

It still took decades.

I think the first proposal for anti-child labor

legislation came in 1906.

Senator Albert Beveridge of Indiana was the first to propose it.

It got taken up in 1916 by the Keating Act that was actually passed, but the Supreme Court shut it down.

And then there was some more legislation that there was a constitutional amendment actually that got passed but wasn't ratified by the states.

And then it wasn't until the Great Depression and the New Deal that it finally got passed.

And I think if it were just the New Deal, it wouldn't have gotten passed.

But the Great Depression changed things socially enough that it opened the door for an end to child labor in America.

Yeah, like ironically, I think massive unemployment with so many adults out of work, they couldn't turn around and just hire kids to do these jobs for lower wages.

It was, I mean, even at a time when a bad look didn't really matter as much as it does today,

they even knew that that was a really bad look and that they probably couldn't do something like that.

So

eventually, the

Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, thank you, Francis Perkins, her old buddy.

That's right.

Among others.

This finally set a national minimum wage for the very first time, maximum number of hours for workers, and then child labor limitations, notably that if you are under 16, you cannot work in manufacturing and you cannot work in coal mining at all because they're just too dangerous.

Another couple of things it did, it established overtime, time and a half.

Oh, yeah.

So if you went over 40 hours a week, you could only work up to 44, but you could work four hours at time and a half.

And that very first minimum wage was 25 cents an hour.

Man.

1939, it went up to 30.

45, it went up to 40.

In 1956, it finally reached $1.

Ka Ching.

And it didn't crack $6 until 2008.

I know, dude, it's just shameful.

Isn't that nuts?

We definitely need to do a minimum wage episode too because it's just not as cut and dried as yeah it's raise the minimum wage like there's just it like there's a lot to it and i really want to do one on that yeah i hadn't really kept up with it because i before i got salary jobs i worked as a waiter for

15 or 20 years or something so or as a pa on uh movie sets and tv sets and that's not a hourly thing either so like i hadn't had a an hourly rate job since college So I didn't really know, you know, kind of how it changed over the years.

I did not know it was 2008 when they cracked $6.

That's really low.

It really is.

It's very, it's, that's just not okay.

And it's still at seven something right now.

It's not $7.75.

No, it's $7.25, actually.

I think it, yeah, that's the national minimum wage, right?

Yeah.

Again, some of the states are raising stuff slowly but surely, but that's the federal one still.

Wait, this says Alabama doesn't have a minimum wage.

Is that right?

Is that possible?

Yeah, that's possible, man.

And I have to look into that.

That's on the fly.

So, yeah, we'll do a whole one on minimum wage for sure coming up.

But you said that the Fair Labor Standards Act was

passed in 1938,

and it still basically governs child labor.

And one of the things that it does, Chuck, is it divides child labor into agricultural and non-agricultural jobs?

And with agriculture or non-agricultural jobs, there's like a pretty decent amount of protections.

Like kids can't work in hazardous stuff until they're 18, things like blasting, mining, forest firefighting, that kind of stuff.

That if you're under 16, you can only work a maximum of three hours a day during the school year.

There's some exemptions.

Did you see the thing about home-based wreathmaking?

Yeah, so you cannot, non-agriculturally, you cannot work if you're under 14 at all.

Like, I could not have worked as a bus boy at 13.

Right.

Supposedly, but I still did.

Right.

Unless that was passed since then, because this thing's been ratified a million times.

Or

not ratified, but.

amended.

But yeah,

if you're a child actor, you can work if you're under 14, obviously.

If you're a newsie, you can still deliver newspapers if you're under 14.

And home-based wreathmakers.

Dude, so weird.

It is weird.

And not only is it home-based wreathmaking is exempted from child labor laws in the United States, it has to be a specific kind of wreath.

It has to be mostly evergreen wreaths.

Wow.

So if you're making wreaths and it has to be at home, if you're having your kid make wreaths at home and they're not mostly evergreen, that's illegal.

And if they're making things out of evergreen that are not wreaths, like say garland, that's illegal.

Specifically,

homemade wreaths that are mostly evergreen.

It's really, really interesting.

It's one of the most bizarre facts we've ever talked about on this episode on this show.

Yeah, for sure.

I'm going to keep that one in my pocket.

Totally.

But agricultural, though, they have like very little protection, like almost shamefully little protections.

Yeah, if you're 16 years old and you live on your family farm, they can work you.

There's no limit on how many hours they can work you.

You can work jobs that the Department of Labor considers hazardous.

I think 14-year-olds also can work unlimited hours if it's outside the school day.

And then kids as young as 12, I think actually 12 and younger, can work with parental consent.

Yeah, like

basically unlimited hours or at least up to 72 hours.

And that's during the school year as well.

And as a result of this, 55% of child farm workers graduate from high school here in, you know, the 2020-ish.

Yeah, in the United States, we're talking about, and the hundred thousand of them are injured on the job every year, child farm laborers.

Yeah, so they're trying to get all this changed.

Yeah, they're basically saying, like, look, just take these things that we apply to non-agricultural jobs and apply it to agricultural problems solved.

And that would solve a lot of problems.

I'm sure it would create a lot of problems that you and I are unaware of, not being farm folk.

But it would solve a lot of the child labor problems that child labor activists have issues with.

It would do nothing for

the much more rampant problems that are endemic around the world with child labor, where a lot of it resembles basically how America was with child labor at the, you know, during the Gilded Age.

Yeah, 158 million kids are estimated to be the victims of child labor around the world.

The good news is that's down 30% from 20 years ago.

But the bad news is, is that's a lot of kids.

And I think 71% of those are in agriculture, harvesting, fishing, herding, stuff like that.

But there are a lot of kids around the world that still like work in coal mines.

Yeah.

Like

that's too narrow for an adult.

It's too dangerous.

You go in there and do it instead.

And they'll work with like, they'll work at Wildcat gold mines.

So they're having to like separate gold with mercury.

So they're getting mercury poisoning at a young age, which really messes with you developmentally.

On tobacco farms in places like Zimbabwe, not only are they having to get, you know, nicotine poisoning, they're also being poisoned by toxic pesticides that are used on the crops and stuff, too.

So like these kids are working in like deplorable working conditions.

And

there's just some really basic stuff that needs to change that would just free the children of the world, the world around,

from

what is essentially like indentured servitude right now.

Yeah, and there's four kind of basic things that the ILO says we can do around the country.

And like you said at the very beginning, they're very pragmatic.

They all make sense and they would really make a difference.

And the first is expand access to education,

get kids in school.

and

get rid of fees to be in school and

put them,

if they're in a school situation, they're way less likely likely to join the workforce.

That's what our friends at Co-Ed do.

They're like helping get kids off of family farms and into schools by removing any barriers between them and school.

Yep.

It's all through education.

It's a great, great organization.

Yep.

What else?

And that's, by the way, the cooperative.

I always say that word wrong.

Cooperative for education.

Yeah.

Look them up.

We've championed them for years.

And we got

a little fun thing coming up that we're doing with them that you guys might be interested in.

So stay tuned for that.

Yeah.

Let me see.

What's the next one?

Help families meet basic needs.

This could be a universal basic income.

It could be a monthly stipend, but basically, so families don't have to send their kids out to work to provide at the most basic level.

Yeah.

And a way that you can help that is through Kiva

by lending, making micro loans to people so that they have the capital to grow from initially.

There's also, like, if you make make sure that adults are getting better wages and pay and their rights are protected, it makes their children less likely to be forced into the workplace to begin with.

Because it's not, again, there's not like adults the world round saying, you know, our kids need to be working because they're lazy.

Like, their kids need to be working because the adults aren't getting paid enough.

And if you make sure that you're, you know, if you're a Western company and you make sure that you're paying everybody a fair wage,

there's a good chance that you can eradicate child labor from your supply chain.

Yeah.

And then the last thing is just enforcement.

They can put all the laws that they want on the books, but unless someone's going to actually work on enforcement, then it really doesn't matter much.

So that's really sort of the last step is

funding for enforcement.

Yeah.

And Germany actually just passed a law recently that demands that its companies examine, do due diligence, and examine their supply chains to see if there's child labor involved and to do something about it.

That doesn't have like as much teeth as Human Rights Watch was saying that they wish it had, but it's a good first step.

And hopefully the way that, you know, progressive nations will start moving.

That's right.

Two things.

Big shout out.

I can't remember his name, but the young listener who was mowing the lawn for his dad and rode in to request this episode.

Oh, that's right.

I think he prompted this episode.

So hats off to you, young

I hope you can kick up your heels for a little while.

And then also, this was indeed a Dave Ruse joint.

So thanks again to Dave for this one.

Right?

That's right.

Since Chuck said that's right, everybody, it means it's time for listener mail.

I'm going to call this,

I think it's just thanks.

Hey, guys, riding in from Louisville, Kentucky to say how much I love the show.

Even though Josh said the KFCM center was in Lexington.

I'll never live that down.

Your correction put a smile on my face, knowing that there are other stuff you should know fans near me.

I work in long-term care and use your podcast in many different ways.

I help people with cognitive impairments set up their tablets and such for enrichment, socialization, and stimulation.

And one of the first activities I show them is how to access entertainment for the educational podcast.

Everyone can find something they want to learn about on stuff you should know.

I also help people find ways of remembering new information and use your short stuff episodes for those with shorter attention spans.

And finally, my own enjoyment is a factor.

I listen to many different podcasts during my drive to and from work, but only stuff you should know has the ability to get me into a different headspace.

I attribute that to Josh and Chuck.

None of these topics would be nearly as interesting without you guys.

I've cried and laughed, sometimes both, all in all of your episodes, even the really mathy ones.

I feel you on that one, Chuck.

And Josh.

Yeah.

Oh, that was a dig.

That wasn't a dig.

Are you a math guy?

No, no, but I like to think I am.

Okay.

Sorry about that.

The episode on snake handling is a personal favorite.

I appreciate an episode.

I love the show and everyone that works on it.

Thanks for keeping it going.

I hope to see y'all in Kentucky.

And that is from Ellie.

Well, thanks again, Ellie.

And if you want to get in touch with us like Ellie did, you can write us an email.

Send it off to stuffpodcasts at iHeartRadio.com.

Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

For more podcasts on iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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