Short Stuff: Oedipus Complex

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Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff.

Josh, Chuck, Jerry, not Dave, but Dave.

And this is Short Stuff.

Yeah, the one in which we

continue to lay wood onto Sigmund Freud.

What?

As a lot of people do.

Yeah.

I mean, his spirit, at least.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, here's the deal with Sigmund Freud.

He,

and I think this, this thing that you put together from Britannica and Very Well Mind and Psych Central and Simply Psychology and other places,

I think it kind of nails it where like maybe we should just think of Freud as kind of an innovative, perhaps even great mind and thinker.

and not like a rigorous scientist

because a lot of the stuff in his psychoanalysis and his theories was not, it was just stuff based on anecdotal things he saw in the cases he worked on.

Sometimes, just like a single case would make him say, Oh, well, here's what this is, I think.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, he would just theorize based on conjecture.

He never applied the scientific method to any of his theories.

He just thought and talked out loud and smoked cigars.

And he came up with interesting explanations, right,

for

things he observed, for like actual real things.

And one of the actual real things that he observed is that a lot of times little kids are mean and hostile to one parent and can't be separated from the other parent.

And he came to kind of recognize that usually they were attached to the opposite sex parent and were mean to the same sex parent.

And that formed the basis of what came to be known as the Oedipus complex, which is far and away his most famous theory among a lot of very famous theories that he came up with.

But just like all the other ones, it's essentially conjecture.

Yeah.

I mean, when you think, if you know nothing about Freud, you probably have made a joke about like somebody wanting to sleep with their mother.

Yeah.

I mean, there's a penis in.

Yeah.

What is it?

I'm not going to tell you.

So we should just quickly go over the Greek myth of Oedipus, in which it was so named for.

Oedipus was abandoned at birth and then fulfilled a prophecy killing his father, the king, and marrying his mother, the queen, whom he did not know

because he was abandoned at birth.

That was his father and his mother.

He ended up having four kids with his mother.

And after learning this,

Queen Jocasta

hanged herself and Oedipus gouged out his eyes.

Perhaps appropriate action.

Yeah.

In his case, at least.

Yeah.

So grossed out, he gouged out his own eyes.

And to be clear, to the Greeks, the point of this myth was not like, how gross is this?

It was

like, it was about how, like the inevitability of fate and the inability of humans to like change their fate or their destiny because he was, this was a prophecy that he ended up fulfilling despite trying really hard not to, right?

Freud was like, I like that really gross part.

I'm going to use that.

to describe these feelings that little kids have toward their parents.

I like the idea, though, that someone's writing this myth and they're like, oh, boys, I got one for you.

This one's so gnarly.

Gnarly.

What's it about?

Oh, you just wait.

Yeah.

I'm not going to.

Is it about destiny?

Ah, whatever.

Sure.

Sure.

So, yeah.

I mean, that's where Freud picked it up.

I mean, it is perfectly suited in that sense.

Yeah, and we'll describe kind of directly from the Simply Psychology website what the edible complex is.

And it occurs during the phallic stage of development, ages three to six, in which the source of libido, or the life horse, is concentrated in the erogenous zones of the child's body.

And during this stage, children experience an unconscious feeling of desire for their opposite-sex parent and jealousy and envy toward their same-sex parent.

Okay.

It makes sense.

It's a little

jargony.

I also found one from Encyclopædia Britannica.

It's a little more lay person-geared.

They say the Oedipus complex in psychoanalytic theory is a desire for sexual involvement with the parent of the opposite sex and a concomitant sense of rivalry with the parent of the same sex.

But it's a crucial stage in the normal development process, according to psychoanalytic theory, at least.

Yeah, that part is pretty key.

And what's also key is that Freud based this on a case,

one case study of a four-year-old patient that he anonymized as little Hans.

Apparently, little Hans was brought in by his father and had recently seen the collapse of a horse pulling a heavy cart that really traumatized him.

Could traumatize anybody.

Sure.

And he developed a fear of horses.

So Hans's father said, you know what?

He's developed all these really specific anxieties.

He feels really uneasy without mom around.

And he's really fixated on male genitalia, especially horse genitalia.

And Freud was like, yes, yes, I see.

Very interesting.

Yeah.

I'm sorry, everybody.

So he basically said, this all just makes total sense.

Check this out, Hans's father.

All of this comes from a foundational animosity that he has towards you, his dad.

And the reason that he's afraid of horses, because the horses represent you, his dad, and he's afraid that you, his dad, are going to castrate him because he secretly wants to sleep with his mother, even though he's four years old.

And Freud's sycophantic secretary jumped to his feet and started applauding uncomfortably loudly.

Yeah, which this, you know, if you went into a,

you know, a shrink today and you heard something like this, you'd say, thank you for your time.

I'll be going to see someone else.

You could actually probably file suit for something like that.

Yeah, you probably could.

But at the time, this turned out to be like the foundational legacy of Freud's psychoanalysis, which is just, you know, bananas to think about.

Should we talk about girls first and take a break or a break and then girls?

Let's talk about girls.

Okay, because there are such things as girls, and Freud was like, Well, I guess I should probably talk about the girls too.

He didn't come up with the name Electra Complex.

That was Carl Jung.

But he did take the Oedipal complex and apply it to girls and basically said, same thing, but do the old switcheroo with the parents.

The girls want to sleep with their father and they hate their mother.

But the whole thing is not to do with castration anxiety.

It's penis envy in girls.

That's right.

And what I mentioned is the first key.

And by the way, I realize how creepy that sounded when I said, let's talk about girls.

Okay.

Okay, good.

His proposal was, and this is very key, was that a kid that does not undergo this experience of the Oedipal complex will not fully mature sexually.

And they will be stuck for life.

They're going to be stuck identifying with the opposite sex parent parent, and they will never be able to have a normal, socially acceptable

love life and desires for people who aren't in their family.

Yeah, he basically said that an incomplete development through the Oedipal complex is the basis of homosexuality.

That's how he would have put it at the time.

And then the other problem of it is you're stuck.

in that portion of your development, doomed to forever like go through it, even though you're never going to get past it.

And he said that guys like that turn out to be real Norman Bates types.

And all of his colleagues were like, Who is Norman Bates?

And Freud was like, Just wait, just wait, because he's going to knock your socks off when he comes along in the early 60s.

I guess we take our break now.

Yes.

All right, we'll be back right after this.

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Learning things with chuck and josh.

Okay, Chuck, so we're back.

So the big question is, is all of this weird, gross stuff correct?

Answer me.

Well,

most

psychologists today and

the world of psychology as a whole are pretty

bashful about even talking about this.

They're like, can we just kind of forget all that stuff?

We've moved on.

It's completely discredited.

Most of Freud's theories are pretty discredited at this point.

But that's not to say that there isn't some support for this still.

No, there have been papers that have come out that seem to very strongly support the presence of Freud's Oedipus complex.

And one came out in 2009.

It was published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B.

And it made international news when it was published because they studied the similarities, the physical characteristic similarities between men's mothers and their wives.

And they measured everything as like jaw length.

They did everything.

And

they were coming up with correlations in like the 92nd percentile.

So essentially, like photocopies between mom and wife.

And they were like, see, guys really want their moms.

What you going to do?

Dogs going to hunt kind of thing.

And like I said, it made international news.

And

luckily, some other scientists were like, let me see your data.

And went through it.

And they're like, this does not support your conclusions at all.

Yeah, here's the thing.

I'm going to go out on a limb.

Hold on to your hats.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, I've seen plenty of examples where

kids end up

married to someone that is maybe in some way like a really good parent that they had of the opposite sex, or maybe of the same sex, even.

I don't necessarily think it's the looks thing.

But like, if you're like a really awesome dad and you're like super fun and funny and

maybe you have a certain job, like and your daughter goes on to marry somebody who has got like a great sense of humor and has maybe have a similar interest as something your father did.

Like, I think that can be a thing.

I don't think it's always a thing,

but it's just sort of when you're raised with a parent that you look, look up to and love and admire, you may seek out people like that in your life.

And I think that's kind of all that is.

I think similarly, and maybe even more frequently or commonly, people

inadvertently or unconsciously seek out people who are like their parents in the worst ways.

Yeah.

Or sometimes completely seek out the opposite.

Yes, but that's more conscious.

Yeah, maybe so.

But yeah, I see what you mean for sure.

Yeah.

So again, there have been, there was another paper in the 80s that studied rats that basically said, like, yes, these rats at least have Oedipus complexes that carry on.

So luckily, psychology came up with some other stuff that says like, okay, kids do stuff like this when they're young, but we don't think it's the Oedipus complex.

And luckily, things like attachment theory, which we did an entire episode on that was pretty good,

have come along.

Way less creepy.

Way less creepy.

They've come along and offered pretty good structures for understanding child development that is just much less icky than Freud's.

So you're just going to summarize that rat study?

You're not going to talk about rat ejaculation?

Do you want me to?

No, I think we should just leave that right there.

Okay, cool.

So I think more than ever, Short Stuff is out.

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