20. The Hostage (Tony Kiritsis)

Support for swindled comes from Simply Safe.

For the longest time, I thought home security meant an alarm going off after someone broke in.

But if the alarm is already blaring, it's too late.

The damage is done.

That's a reactive approach, and it leaves you with that awful feeling of violation, even if the intruder runs away.

That's why I switched to Simply Safe.

They've completely changed the game with Active Guard outdoor protection.

designed to stop crime before it starts.

Their smart, AI-powered cameras don't just detect motion.

They can tell you when there's a person lurking on your property.

That instantly alerts SimplySafe's professional monitoring agents in real time.

And here's the game changer.

The agents can actually intervene while the intruder is still outside.

Talk to them through two-way audio, hit them with a loud siren and spotlight.

and call 911 if needed.

It's proactive security, and that's real security.

I trust SimplySafe because there are no long-term contracts, no hidden fees, and a 60-day money-back guarantee.

They've been named best home security systems by U.S.

News and World Report for five years in a row, and I can see why.

Get 50% off your new SimplySafe system at simplysafe.com/slash swindled.

That's 50% off your new SimplySafe system by visiting simplysafe.com/slash swindled.

There's no safe like SimplySafe.

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Before we get started, I want to give a special thanks to Alan Berry and Mark Enoch, the directors of Dead Man's Line, the true story of Tony Karitsis.

It's a documentary about the subject of this episode.

Alan and Mark have given Swindled full access to the resources they use to make their film, including audio, which has never been available anywhere else until now.

You can thank Alan and Mark by streaming their incredible documentary on iTunes or Amazon.

Hearing the audio is one thing, but seeing the actual footage of the situation as it plays out and hearing firsthand from people who were at the scene was a whole different experience.

You'll see what I mean.

For more information about the film, visit deadmansline.com.

Enjoy the show.

motion.

You may leave, you may leave.

Dang, he told you women can leave.

Six men stay.

Everyone else leaves.

The December 14th, 2010, Panama City, Florida School Board meeting was proceeding according to plan.

The first half was spent honoring local students for their achievements during the school year before the floor was opened up to questions from the general public.

One member of the small group of citizens in attendance, 56-year-old Lynn Haven resident Clay Allen Duke, proclaimed that he had a motion.

Duke stood up from his seat and walked calmly to the closest wall.

and spray painted the letter V in red with a circle around it.

It was the same symbol used in the movie V for Vendetta, in which an anarchist freedom fighter attempts to ignite a revolution through terrorist acts against a fascist regime.

Clay Duke fancied himself somewhat of an anarchist.

He was very anti-government, and he was what people sometimes referred to as a prepper, a lifestyle that he had been practicing since their irrational panic of Y2K.

Duke kept a stockpile of weapons and ammunition at his mobile home, convinced or hoping that civilized society was on its last leg.

Clay Duke was also a convicted felon.

He had served three years in prison for aggravated stalking after he was arrested in 1999 when he attempted to ambush his ex-wife at her home.

Duke was spotted by his ex-wife while he was hiding in the woods between the trees, wearing a mask and a bulletproof vest.

When she confronted him, Duke threatened to kill her, whoever else was in the house, and himself.

She jumped in her car and tried to drive away, and he shot out her rear tire with a rifle.

While in prison, Clay Duke was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, but he was determined not to let it hold him back.

After his release in 2004, Duke enrolled in a massage school and became a licensed massage therapist, but for some strange reason, he had trouble finding and keeping clients.

He was soon unemployed and struggling to make ends meet.

He became completely reliant on the income of his new wife, Rebecca, which is why Clay Duke found himself at the school board meeting that day.

He had the date circled on his calendar at home.

Clay Duke had a bone to pick.

After putting the final touches on his work of art, Duke set the can of spray paint on the podium, reached into his pants, and pulled out a 9mm pistol.

He approached the front of the room and ordered everyone to leave except for the six, quote, assholes sitting on the school board dais.

Duke aimed the pistol at Superintendent Bill Husfelt and told him, I'm gonna die to the case.

You see, uh,

our benefits for us

were broke.

You see what I'm saying?

Please explain, please, sir.

Please explain, please.

I'm not sure if you can work the worst board.

While Clay Duke's back was turned, Ginger Littleton, one of the female board members who had been ordered to leave, pokes her head back into the room.

In the video, you can see Ginger twisting the handle of her purse tightly around her hand while quietly approaching Duke from behind.

When she gets in range, she swings her purse at Duke's right hand that is holding the gun.

She misses, and Clay Duke angrily pushes her to the ground and calls her a stupid bitch.

But he doesn't shoot her.

He lets her escape the room again and refocuses his attention to Superintendent Husfeld.

Tell me what she did.

They're called the police in his speaker.

I know that, but tell me what your wife did.

I'm going to die.

Tell me what your wife did.

If you're going to kill yourself or kill us or whatever, at least let us know what's going on.

Because I'll be very honest with you.

I swear, I don't know who your wife is or what she did.

I don't.

I don't want to die like anybody else doesn't.

Mr.

Husfeld signed the papers, I'm sure, but he doesn't know her.

What's the situation?

I'm just asking, what did she do?

Was she a teacher?

Was she a paraprofessional?

Did she work in the classroom?

Did she work in the cafe?

Was she a bus driver?

I don't know.

Rebecca Duke was a Panama City school teacher.

She taught English to children with special needs.

She was fired after a 97-day probationary period for not performing up to standards.

And Superintendent Bill Husveldt signed off on it, which Clay Duke felt was contradictory to Husveldt's campaign promises.

Duke accused the superintendent of gutting the school system, which led to people like his wife being laid off.

Husveldt had also re-implemented a sales tax, which Duke felt created a heavier burden for the poor.

And Clay Duke was poor.

Now that neither he nor his wife had jobs, the couple had been living on Rebecca's unemployment benefits.

Unemployment benefits, which, according to Duke, had just run out.

The holidays were approaching, and Clay Duke was frustrated and angry, and he could no longer afford his bipolar medication.

A week before the school board meeting, Duke posted what he referred to as his testament on Facebook.

It read, quote, Some people, the government-sponsored media, will say I was evil, a monster.

No, I was just born in a country where the wealthy manipulate, use, abuse, and economically enslave 95% of the population.

Rich Republicans, rich Democrats, Same, same.

Rich.

They take turns fleecing us, our few dollars, pyramiding the wealth for themselves.

The 95%,

the us and US of A, are the neo-slaves of the Global South.

Our masters, the wealthy, do as they like to us.

Superintendent Bill Husfeld denied breaking his campaign promises.

but he did take sole responsibility for terminating Rebecca Duke, and he pleaded with Clay Duke to let the others go.

A request that fell on deaf ears.

Just a warning, what you're about to hear is violent and disturbing.

Okay.

I don't remember, and I don't know who she is, but let them go.

I'm the one that did it.

I mean, they don't sign the papers.

I'm the only one that signs them.

But you're obviously upsetting me.

So why are they here?

Let me See, here's what I don't want to happen.

I don't want anybody to listen, just listen to me for a minute.

I don't want anybody to get hurt, and I've got a feeling that what you want is the cops come in and kill you because you're mad because you say you're going to die today.

But why?

This isn't worth it.

This is a problem.

Please don't.

Please don't.

Please.

I'm going to get

you.

Clay Allen Duke fired his gun four times, standing only a few feet in front of Bill Husfeld.

The other board members dove for cover behind the dais.

In the midst of the chaos, Duke had not noticed that Mike Jones, the school security officer, had snuck into the back of the room and taken position behind a table.

Jones opened fire on Clay Duke and hit him twice, which made him fall to the ground, incapacitated but conscious enough to return a fire.

Duke shot six rounds in the direction of the security officer before putting the barrel of the gun against his temple and taking his own life.

This is school security officer Mike Jones describing the emotions he experienced during the incident.

I think that

the thing that sticks in my mind most of all is

during the gun battle.

I tried to get this gentleman to come outside with me and to draw him away from the school board and the superintendent and

that didn't work.

And

when I was planning my engagement and

I saw that first shot and I knew the superintendent fell backwards and all the board members fell backwards and then he and I engaged in the gun battle that I'd lost the superintendent and I'd let him down.

And I love him and the board and I love the school system and that was the only thing that came to my mind.

And

when the superintendent came from behind that counter and Franklin Harrison and he came and hugged my neck, that's when I lost it, like I am now.

I could

just cry.

I cried Chick-Flicks to y'all.

But just to see him, it was like seeing a newborn baby for the first time.

I knew

I'm not lying to you, and I can't get that out of my mind.

That's the picture that I see the most.

I don't see the shots being fired, I don't see the bullets.

I see him and coming from behind that desk, and I knew that it was okay.

And

you know,

I'm not a hero, folks.

I'm just done my job and yes, you are.

And uh.

In total, Clay Duke fired 11 bullets at the school board members and the security officer.

He missed every single one of them.

There were no injuries.

A fact that Clay Duke's wife, Rebecca, points to as proof that it wasn't Clay's intention to hurt anyone.

She revealed that Clay was a trained shooter and an excellent marksman and suggested that he must have missed on purpose, just to scare them.

Rebecca also referred to Clay as a loving husband and family man who was only trying to stand up for his wife.

She said Clay was fed up with the complacency of the working class and disgusted by the ever-growing wealth inequality between the haves and the have-nots.

He was upbeat.

He was, you know, he was happy.

You know, that holidays, like everybody else, he gets blue.

I talked to him

Sunday night on the phone

because I have, I was down here for

well, today we'll make a week in a day because I was

down here trying to fill out applications and trying to get in some interviews so that I could actually say, honey, guess what?

I got a job, you know, everything's gonna be okay.

But

evidently, I didn't get that chance.

And

I'm sorry about that.

Because I love my husband.

He's really a gentle giant.

He's actually

tender and he's loving his actions the way that what he did was, you know, wrong in the eyes of the law and society, probably.

But basically,

he loved me.

He loved his family.

And he was just trying to

have people stop.

As he would say, dump on me and get me an answer so that I can move on, so we can move on.

That's what he was trying to tell you, tell everybody

is that

the world is focusing too much on money and we've stopped caring about one another.

We're intelligent people.

Let's just stop being little zombies and just going along with the flow.

He wants

the other, as he calls them, the other

95%

of us

to actually work together so we can have our middle class back because we deserve it.

We deserve it as much as what the rich, as he calls it, has.

We deserve it as well.

Klay Duke's story is a familiar story, one in which a man at his wit's end fights back against a perceived oppressor.

Even if the perceived slights exist only in the mind of the slighted.

It's a story in which the little little guy finally stands up to the man, even when the most likely outcome is self-destruction.

That's the story of Clay Allen Duke and the overwhelming pressure of being poor in America.

And it's the story of Anthony G.

Karitsis and his dying American dream.

A former car salesman seeks vengeance for a real estate deal gone sour by taking the president of a mortgage company hostage at gunpoint on this episode of Swindled.

They bribed government officials to find accounting for clear violations of the state law clearly unethical.

Dummied up its books and records to hide themselves.

Support for swindled comes from Simply Safe.

For the longest time, I thought home security meant an alarm going off off after someone broke in.

But if the alarm is already blaring, it's too late.

The damage is done.

That's a reactive approach, and it leaves you with that awful feeling of violation, even if the intruder runs away.

That's why I switched to Simply Safe.

They've completely changed the game with Active Guard outdoor protection, designed to stop crime before it starts.

Their smart, AI-powered cameras don't just detect motion.

They can tell you when there's a person lurking on your property.

That instantly alerts SimplySafe's professional monitoring agents in real time.

And here's the game changer.

The agents can actually intervene while the intruder is still outside.

Talk to them through two-way audio, hit them with a loud siren and spotlight, and call 911 if needed.

It's proactive security, and that's real security.

I trust SimplySafe because there are no long-term contracts, no hidden fees, and a 60-day money-back guarantee.

They've been named best home security systems by U.S.

News and World Report for five years in a row, and I can see why.

Get 50% off your new SimplySafe system at simplysafe.com/slash swindled.

That's 50% off your new SimplySafe system by visiting simplysafe.com/slash swindled.

There's no safe like SimplySafe.

Dozen Seat Arena, which is the base for the three professional sporting teams, a beautiful art museum, the world's largest children's museum, and of course the well-known Indianapolis 500-mile speedway.

Richard Hall was running late for work on the morning of Tuesday, February 8th, 1977.

Dick, as his friends called him, had an 8 a.m.

meeting with a loan customer named Tony Karitsis.

And Tony was not someone that you wanted to keep waiting.

Dick Hall was the president of a real estate and insurance agency and mortgage company named Meridian Mortgage that his father Millard had founded 45 years earlier during the Great Depression.

Millard was still involved with the business but had migrated south to Florida for the winter, leaving his son in complete control.

Dick finally made it to work after trudging through the freezing cold and the piles of snow on the ground.

He found Tony waiting for him in the reception area of the Hall Management Corporation's offices in the heart of downtown Indianapolis.

He noticed that Tony had a roll of sight plans in one hand.

His other arm was in a sling and he was wearing a short-sleeved shirt with no coat.

A curious choice considering the weather.

On the table in front of Tony sat a white box that was about five feet long.

Dick assumed that it must have contained additional development plans for Tony's property.

Dick Hall led Tony into his father's office to spread the sight plans across the large conference room table.

Tony shut the door behind them and told Hall that he needed some privacy to adjust his underwear.

Dick understood, as any human being that wears underwear would.

He turned his back to Tony and focused his attention on the plans in front of him.

The plans were for the commercial development of 17 acres of land on the northwest corner of Lynnhurst Drive and Rockville Road.

Tony Caritzis had purchased the land with a $110,000 commercial loan.

he had secured from the Halls about five years earlier.

Dick Hall looked up from the plans to see Tony with a wild look in his eyes, and he was pointing a small silver handgun in his face.

Tony told Dick that he had done him wrong, and he told him that he planned to let the whole world know about it.

Tony Karitzis handcuffed Hall's hands in front of him, and he pulled a sawed-off shotgun from the white box and wired the muzzle to Hall's neck, which was wired to the trigger by way of a ring on Tony's index finger.

A system that Tony referred to as a dead man's line, which he had learned about from an episode of Hawaii 5-0.

It was a system that would ensure instant death for Dick Hall if something happened to Tony.

The dead man's line ensured that no snipers could take Tony out.

There would be no ambushes, no hostage running away.

Tony Karitsis was in complete control.

He dialed 9-1-1 to begin the next phase of his plan.

Hello?

Yes, sir.

You'll have to speak up.

Is this the police?

Yes, it is.

Sir, this is a dire emergency.

A real serious thing.

I've just taken a prisoner.

It's not a crank call.

I'm a man that these people are trying to bankrupt.

They have fucked me around for four years.

Now,

I want you to send two police officers to this address, and I'll tell you what you can tell them.

I've got a 12-gauge sawdust automatic shotgun.

I've got a deathman line on the trigger.

There's three shots in the fucking gun.

There's one in the chamber and the man with a gun on his neck, wrapped around it with a cable, is holding the fucking safety in his hand.

And if anybody gangs on me, gangs that gun, makes a fast fucking move, we'll die right here.

My name is Tony Carrines.

I'm going to have my fucking revenge.

They fucked me around for four years.

A deliberate setup.

Millions of fucking dollars involved, and they know it.

Let me tell you something, sir.

You tell those guys to play through because this is the real fucking McCoy.

Say hi, Dick.

Say you're okay.

Don't do shit.

You want to say you're okay?

You want to forget about it?

Say you're okay.

Yeah, I'm all right.

Now, let me tell you something.

I don't want to die.

There's no fucking suicidal cell in my fucking body.

But I'm a mad, green, murder fucker.

And if you, if I left time, I'd tell you, you'd be mad too.

I'll put it to you this way.

If somebody sets you up, they take everything you've got.

Every fucking thing you've got.

Like a fucking mafia.

Or worse.

Now they put you in a hole and you don't know how to get out of it.

No, they didn't put me in a fucking hole.

They shut me up.

There's a fucking difference.

Man Man climbs down a fucking hole in God, but anybody can be lied to.

I've got to tell you how fucking badly I feel about

fucking with you guys, I guess.

It's kind of hard for the average fucking goddamn to understand this, but it ain't hard for my fucking friends to understand it, because they've seen me die before fucking years.

Okay, we just want you to kind of keep calm as you can, because you don't know.

Shit, maybe I'm God.

There ain't a fucking nerve in my body.

You bet your fucking life on that, because I tell you, these cockseckers working they would deal with me.

I'd have to kill somebody else would have killed them a long time ago.

Hey, let me tell you, I know I'm what a fucking wrong one was dead in fucking street, but I'll tell you one fucking thing.

I didn't come up here to bite down.

In the 25-minute phone call with the Indianapolis Police Department, Tony Karitzis did his best to explain the situation, and he requested two officers meet him on the fourth floor of the office building at 129 East Market Street to discuss his demands.

Tony also tried to explain to the officer on the phone his reasoning for taking Dick Hall hostage.

He insinuated that Dick and his father had screwed him over on the loan.

Tony's theory was that the Halls had been sabotaging potential purchases of the land so that they could eventually foreclose on the property and keep it for themselves.

Tony accused the Halls of luring interested developers away from his land in favor of other locations on the market, an accusation based more on paranoia than fact.

The truth was that the Halls were only interested in getting their money back.

The company had already extended the two-year loan more than once when it became apparent that Tony could not afford to repay it.

Tony refinanced the loan a final time in February 1976, which required him to pay $130,000 on the original $110,000.

An agreement that Tony could have easily satisfied if he had sold the land, which had been appraised for almost $600,000 in October 1975.

And there were willing buyers, but for some unknown reason, Tony Karitsis refused to sell.

The terms of the refinance required the loan to be paid in full on March 1st, 1977, which was less than a month away.

In the four years since the loan's inception, Tony had paid nothing on the principal.

He was staring foreclosure in the face.

and he had no intention of letting the halls and meridian mortgage take from him what he believed was rightfully his.

Even though he admitted to being afraid, Dick Hall had remained calm in the office with the shotgun pressing against his skull.

He tried to persuade Tony to give up on the plan a few times, but stayed quiet for the most part, only speaking when it was demanded of him.

Partly consoled by the fact that Tony kept repeating that it wasn't his intention for anybody to get hurt, including himself.

Still, Dick had never seen anyone as angry as Tony Karitsis.

And Dick didn't feel like he had done anything wrong to cause that anger.

And there was nothing he could do or say to convince Tony otherwise.

So he would just have to wait and see how it all played out.

More than an hour and a half would pass before Tony Karitsis would make his next move.

The cops never came into the building.

So Tony marched Hall out of his office onto the streets of downtown Indianapolis.

Tony originally intended for him and his hostage to escape in the car that he drove to the office, but that plan was derailed when Tony accidentally broke the key off in his ignition earlier that morning.

Instead, Tony aimlessly paraded Dick Hall for over five city blocks while trying to come up with another idea.

This is Officer David Kaufman sharing his first-hand observations from the scene.

It was wired around his fingers and around his arm, so if he let go of it, it would still pull the trigger.

He had a cable around a man's throat attached to the shotgun so there's no way to get the shotgun away from the man's head.

So I told him

whatever you want just let me know.

He didn't say anything about his intentions?

He said that he was going to get everything he wanted or he would shoot the man.

That's about all.

He never did tell me exactly what he wanted.

He just kept walking.

Did Mr.

Hall say anything as you were walking along the road?

No.

He appeared to be fairly calm for the situation.

He did what he was told and walked when he was told to walk and stopped when he was told to stop.

Would you describe the suspect as being extremely nervous?

No.

He knew what he was doing.

For the situation, I say he's fairly calm.

He knew exactly what he was doing.

The juxtaposition between the two men was striking.

Dick Hall was quiet and reserved, tall and slender.

Tony was short and stocky with a fiery temper and a dirty mouth.

He was verbally berating and abusing the on-looking police officers who were trying to maintain their distance, all the while demanding the use of one of their police cruisers.

At one point during their stroll, both Tony and Dick slipped on the ice and fell to their knees, almost activating the dead man's line.

Tony couldn't believe that the gun didn't go off.

His contraption had not worked as intended, which only made him more angry.

As the two men approached an empty cop car to make their getaway, a loud bang startled the already nervous crowd that had gathered.

A rubbernecker rubbernecker driving a Lincoln Continental east on Washington Street had driven directly into a telephone pole.

Even Dick Hall had to keep himself from laughing at the comedic tragedy of it all.

Tony crawled into the passenger seat of the police car from the driver's side and pulled Dick Hall in behind him.

With the shotgun pointed directly in his face, Dick was ordered to drive west on Washington Street with the lights flashing.

Well, Tom, right now, the suspect and his victim are proceeding westbound on Washington Street in an Indianapolis police car with red lights flashing.

The car is number 2-132.

It was proceeding west on demand from the kidnapper, apparently, as a consequence of part of the hostage situation that developed about an hour ago.

Around 9:30 a.m., eight miles west of downtown, the police car driven by hostage Dick Hall pulled into the entrance of Crestwood Village, a red brick apartment community where Tony Karitzis lived.

Dick parked the car, and Tony led him up the stairs to his third-floor apartment.

Inside, Tony sat Dick at his dining room table opposite of the shotgun, which was propped up on phone books and pointed directly at him.

Tony began making phone calls to seemingly almost everyone he knew.

He called brothers and half-brothers, friends and family.

He even called Dick Hall's wife Ibby to let her talk to her husband, maybe for the last time.

Eventually, Tony removed the wire from Dick's neck and moved him to the bathroom floor where he was handcuffed to a long, heavy chain.

Hours passed before Tony slid a plate of salami and cheese under the bathroom door and said,

Dick, eat up off the plate like the goddamn dog that you are.

From outside, a complex set of wires could be seen dangling in the window of Tony's apartment.

Police were negotiating with Tony through his front door when he alerted them to the fact that the whole place was booby-trapped.

Indianapolis.

We are back in contact with Doug O'Brien.

And Doug, you say you have gotten a recent advisory from Chief of Police Eugene Gallagher.

Can you give us that situation?

That's correct.

Gallagher tells us that the apartment apparently is wired somehow to be set off by nitroglycerin.

And they're advising everybody to stay away from the east side of this building because if the nitro is in fact there, and it does if in fact it does go, it's going to blow out the east side of this three-story apartment building.

There are officers trying to negotiate with the gunmen and there is a SWAT team right outside the building awaiting for any eventualities.

Over 500 residents were evacuated from their homes and put up in hotels, which allowed the police department and the media who were venturing into unknown territory to set up their bases in unoccupied apartments.

The evacuation also allowed the police to continue negotiating with Tony Karitsis from a safe distance of the explosive material.

Instead of communicating with Tony through the doorway of his apartment, they began talking to him through the television and the radio, which he was constantly monitoring.

And Tony talked back through repeated phone calls with a well-known Indianapolis talk show personality named Fred Heckman at WBIC.

In his first conversation with Heckman, it would be broadcasted over the airwaves.

Tony listed his grievances and began making his demands.

44 years.

Nobody has had the adversity that I've had.

But in spite of that, and without arrogance and without putting my friends down and without being egotistical, I am the strongest man mentally that I know.

The average guy that would have gone through this would have already had a heart attack and or a stroke.

These guys are lucky they're dealing with me.

because some nervous Norman would have already shot them.

Now I'll tell you what these people tried to do, sir.

It's almost indescribable.

To the average man, he will not be, he will be unable to comprehend it.

These people betrayed, they set me up, they schemed to ruin a life, a human life, my life.

You've got 100 armed officers around here trying to get a shot at me.

They had a couple hundred down on the street yesterday morning.

I dared them to shoot me.

I didn't go down there to be a buffoon.

I went down there for vengeance.

And by God, I'll have vengeance.

And I'll tell you something right on here.

They made that statement last night.

Not bad, but completely and totally inadequate.

They're going to say we had to do this because he had our son with a gun on his head.

He was going to blow him up.

Now, let me tell you something.

I'm going to walk out here a free man.

They're not going to book me.

They're not going to mug me.

They're not going to pin me.

And they're not going to take me to a psychologist because I don't need one.

Now,

you goddamn right I planned it.

I planned it the first day I signed that that mortgage in 1972, December the 19th.

I told these man, this man and his father, in their office over a period of four years, repeatedly, almost explicitly, that I would kill any man that set me up with this kind of greed.

I'm not a rich man.

I'm a poor man.

I never wanted to be rich.

It didn't bother me.

I could go plodding along here, being poor, working like a dog, and breaking even and be happy as a dog in dog heaven.

But nobody, sir, nobody is going to set me up and take everything that I own.

I've made a lot of sacrifices in my time.

I'm a 34-year-old man.

I've never been drunk.

I've never been married.

I've never been engaged.

I've never gone steady.

I forsook marriage because I had a lot of responsibility.

Fuck these people.

They played God and lost.

I'm a man that's fighting for everything that I own, sir.

Do you have a wife and family, Fred?

I sure do, Tony.

How many kids you got?

We have five.

How old are you, Fred?

Oh, they range in age between 12 and 28.

You better believe I do.

Let's say they suck you up, and they said, We're gonna take your car, and we're gonna take your house, and we're gonna take your wife, and we're gonna take your children, and then they're gonna laugh at you.

Would you be ready to kill Heckman?

Be awfully mad, sir.

Would you be ready to kill Heckman?

I don't know whether I'd be ready to kill, but I'd be.

Don't be ready to kill.

Don't lie.

Don't lie.

Why do you lie?

You'll kill them a minute.

They have ruined my life.

But I'm a mean motherfucker.

They aren't going to intimidate me, and they aren't going to humiliate me.

I've been a goddamn fatsy all my life.

I told this motherfucker up here, after all they've done, that I stopped going to hate him, but I could sure as hell kill him.

Now, as I say, they're going to document everything that they have done.

Okay, Tony, I'll tell you what.

We're going to stop the tape here.

What I will do, and you can listen if you want, I'm going to bring your thing.

in an earlier phone call with Deputy County Prosecutor George Martz, Tony outlined exactly what his demands were.

1.

He wanted an immediate cancellation of the $130,000 loan held by Meridian Mortgage, accompanied with an admission of wrongdoing and a sincere public apology.

2.

Tony wanted a signed document from Meridian Mortgage promising him $5 million.

And 3.

He wanted a guarantee of full immunity from any prosecution or psychiatric evaluation.

The first two were easy.

Meridian had agreed to cancel the loan, and they were willing to give the man anything he wanted in exchange for Dick's life.

They even had a personal friend of Tony's read the public apology from Meridian on television.

The immunity deal, however, was going to take some work.

Work that would have to continue into the next day.

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In Indianapolis, a man named Anthony Karitsis is still holding hostage a real estate executive.

The drama is in its second day and our man, Mike Jackson, is there.

What kind of a man is Anthony Karitsis?

Friends of his who have come out to the apartment complex to dissuade him from doing anything rash say he is an emotional man, a man prone to anger.

Police say he has a record mainly for beating people up.

One policeman who didn't want to be identified, a man who said he grew up with Carissas, says he is a good friend and a bad enemy.

On the second day, Dick Hall was brought back into the dining room by Tony, who was becoming more erratic and paranoid by the minute.

Sometimes he would become overcome with anger and unable to control his emotions.

Other times he was comfortable enough to leave Dick at the table unattended.

He would be screaming threats of murder and revenge one minute, small talk and friendly conversation the next.

The two men were killing time and listening to the radio for any new developments.

Good evening.

I'm in a room near the police headquarters outside the apartment of Tony Karitz's, where he's holding Dick Hall hostage.

We've been requested airtime by the Marion County Public Prosecutor's Office in order to give an address by Deputy County Prosecutor George Martz, an address apparently aimed at Tony Karitzas himself.

Now here's Mr.

Martz.

Thank you.

At this time, I would like to read

a letter from the Office of the Prosecuting Attorney of Marion County, James F.

Kelly, Prosecutor.

This document is dated February 9, 1977.

It's entitled Letter of Immunity Granted to Anthony George Caristas.

Mr.

Anthony George Caristas.

The Marion County Prosecutor, James F.

Kelly, does hereby confer and grant to Anthony George Caristas

immunity from prosecution with reference to the abduction of Richard Hall

and all subsequent acts done or alleged to have been done are caused by the said Anthony George Charistas.

This document is signed by James F.

Kelly,

authorized by David L.

Remstead.

Mr.

Kelly has been contacted by myself on two occasions today,

the last time approximately 10 minutes ago.

He is fully aware of this agreement.

And you have his assurance that the terms of this agreement will be strictly enforced.

Tony Karitsis had received a public apology, a promise of $5 million,

and now, full immunity from prosecution under the condition that Dick Hall would be released without incident.

Tony Karitsis had gotten exactly what he wanted.

Tony Karitsis had won.

The immunity agreement was sent to Tony's lawyer for review, and whenever Tony received word that it was legit, Dick Hall would be released.

But just as things seemed to be progressing towards a non-violent solution, there was a moment later that night when all progress seemed to be lost.

On the radio, Tony heard a news anchor say something that made him believe that the cops are planning to take him out.

Tony picked up his phone and dialed a sleeping Fred Heckman.

How you doing, LeFran?

Those motherfuckers just broadcast something on your fucking radio station.

Now they're trying to lie about it, Fred, and I don't like it with a fuck.

Don't tell me what I heard.

What do you think, Tony?

Tony, I heard it, and they said it, and now they're going to act like I was hearing things.

Tony,

Tony, I just got.

I just got you.

Hey, I just got h I'm home, Tony.

I don't know.

I just called you and had you call me, right?

I heard a yell.

Okay.

You heard what I heard, right?

No, I didn't, Tony.

I was sound asleep.

Hey, you know I don't lie to you now.

You know I don't lie to you.

I haven't lied to you yet.

Yeah.

Hey, Tony, you're ready.

Mr.

Heckland, please.

I respect you.

You've been a hell of a man.

Thank you, sir.

Those cocksuckers are on us.

Johnny, get two of them across the front hall now.

Right now.

Let's go down here shut, Fred.

It's goddamn short.

I'll have ventures and nothing else.

And I ain't gonna take a chance on it.

Now!

Okay, Tony, listen.

Yeah, it's Fred.

Yeah.

No kidding.

Yeah.

What is it we said?

Well, I don't know.

Olbi actually said it for him so he can tell you.

Can I speak to Obese?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

What was this you said?

I don't really remember.

It was some general comment about how a bomb squad individual had indicated earlier on to the effect that if Karitsis became incapacitated, they could probably get inside the room without setting it off.

Tensions heightened as Tony Karitsis went silent for the rest of the night and the hostage situation moved into its third day.

The only people who knew what was happening in that apartment were Tony Karitsis and Dick Hall.

Everyone breathed a sigh of relief the following morning when Tony called Fred Heckman to apologize for his anger the day before.

Tony said he was fed up with the media talking about how to save Dick Hall without any concern for Tony Karitzis.

Tony also expressed concern for the pending immunity deal.

I'm very apprehensive about what they might drum up on this immunity thing and give me some kind of a

false thing, you know, then when I walk out there to arrest me, and I'm going to tell you, Mr.

Heckman, they might get that job done.

But if they do, heaven help them.

After the deal was given a thumbs up by his lawyer, Tony rewired the shotgun to Dick Hall's neck and prepared for his victory speech.

A press conference would be televised from the apartment complex's clubhouse.

The media and law enforcement were already swarming the place, waiting for the man of the hour to arrive.

At about 10.20 p.m., the door to Tony's apartment opened.

The two men emerged in the same formation as a few days before on the streets of Indianapolis, with Dick Hall walking slowly in front, with Tony close behind, prodding him with the barrel of his gun.

As soon as Tony entered the crowded room, he demanded that the cameras be turned on.

He wanted everyone he knew to see him relish his victory.

Read that, pal.

Read it.

He handed a prepared statement to Dick Hall and demanded him to read.

else.

I want it on all three national channels.

I've got friends all over the country.

You read it.

February 10th.

Where are the cameras?

I want them to see this guy.

God damn it, you guys are those Kodaks, get out of the way.

You guys be good and quiet.

We'll let this gentleman read that.

They goddamn near made me blow his goddamn brains out.

I'm the only motherfucker mean enough to have withstood this without having a goddamn stroke or a heart attack.

Okay,

read it.

February 10, 1977.

This statement is being made to try and state the items that Mr.

Karitsis alludes to as being the illegal...

Hold it, hold it.

I want this goddamn thing understood.

I'll read it.

February 10th, 1977.

I want a glass of water.

This statement is being made to try and state the items that Mr.

Carissus alludes, and I don't like that word.

I charge and they're not.

What followed was a 20-minute rant that featured every human emotion known to man.

Tony anointed himself a quote, goddamn national hero.

He remained angry and defiant as he refuted the Hall statement line by by line.

He called Dick and his father names and repeated the claim that they had fucked him over.

Minutes later, Tony was teary-eyed and apologetic and greeted members of the audience whom he recognized.

He also revealed that the bombs in his apartment were nothing more than two jugs of gasoline.

At times, it seemed like Tony was preparing to blow Hall's head off on national TV.

In fact, many of the networks covering the event ended their broadcasts prematurely to prevent airing the inevitable.

Police Chief Eugene Gallagher, who was standing next to Tony throughout the duration of his statement, had a concealed firearm in his pocket and a plan to intervene.

Gallagher revealed later that he had a handkerchief in his other pocket that he would pull out to signify of his intention to take the shot.

Gallagher claimed he had started to reach for the handkerchief multiple times before Tony's speech was over.

Luckily, the press conference ended without incident, and Dick Hall was unwired from the the shotgun.

Tony used the opportunity to prove that the gun was actually loaded by shooting it into the sky through an open door.

Look at what I tell you.

I stuck one of these in your ear for three days, and you had one in mine for four and a half years.

I'm sorry, man.

Here, Bob, you Harry?

Tony wants to talk to you.

Harry, baby, just got the signed paper.

It's all over, man.

I got five million dollars.

You tell Ma, and I'll be down there.

Just don't worry about it.

You okay?

No, hell, I'm free, man.

I'm free.

Chuck, baby.

Are we done, honey?

Yeah.

Get him off of there, Mark.

Now it's time.

Jesus Christ, I've seen Boy Scouts work quicker than that.

Hold that for me.

I never dropped it.

Hold it.

Hook it to that one.

Wait a minute.

Wait a minute.

Watch that.

Now pivot back on there.

There you go.

Watch it off your hand, Tony.

You know what I'd like to do?

Don't shake it.

Open that goddamn door.

Get out of the the way.

Of course, the media waiting outside heard the shot and feared the worst.

They weren't sure if the story had just taken a tragic turn until Prosecutor George Martz appeared to deliver the good news.

Is Paul out of danger?

Sure.

We got him.

We got him.

He's okay.

Where's Tony?

I have no idea.

I don't know.

I don't give a shit.

What happened?

I don't know what I can't explain the shot, but

I'll find out.

The hostage is out.

He's okay.

After 63 grueling hours, the hostage was free.

Dick Hall's nightmare was over, with nothing worse than a little blood on his collar and a lack of sleep.

Dick was loaded into an ambulance and taken to a hospital for evaluation before he was allowed to return home to his family.

It's been a long ordeal, and my family and I are extremely grateful to God for a safe solution in this ordeal.

And we're most appreciative of all those thoughts and prayers that were with us.

And we can't express enough our gratitude.

Tony Karitsis, on the other hand, was not free.

He was arrested immediately after his speech and charged with 11 counts that included kidnapping, armed robbery, and intent to kill.

Get me out of this goddamn place.

I'm sorry, man.

Are you arrested?

I talked to you, and we had our plan, right?

You talked about a cheap shot.

No, Tony, you got a child.

I got you on the phone, and I told you I was going to bring that man out, and you said okay.

No, Tony, you told me you was going to lay that shotgun down up there facing the wall and bring him in.

You talked about a cheap shot.

Now, didn't you?

You talk about a cheap shot.

No, that's what you told me, Tony.

The immunity agreement between Tony and the prosecutor's office turned out to be worth less than the paper it was printed on.

Kuritzis found out the hard way, that any promises made under the threat of a gun are not legally binding.

Immunity cannot be granted

to an accused.

A document was typed up and given to him, which would have granted him immunity.

so long as the prosecutor's office honored the terms.

I'll say this, there was never any intention on the part of the prosecutor's office to honor the terms.

Why was he given a grant?

Was this just an arrangement to get him out of the room?

That's pure and simply it.

What's his status at this point?

Is he what's his bail?

Is he going to play it?

What's that?

He's presently in jail, and the total bond is $850,000.

Meridian Mortgage also released a statement to publicly announce that any promises or comments made by the company during the hostage crisis were false and were only intended to save DeCall's life.

Tony Karitsis had been screwed over by the man once again.

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I did to Dick Hall was a terrible thing, a horrible thing.

I didn't want to do it, and I tried not to do it.

At that point, he burst into tears.

Defense attorney Niles Stanton then led him through a narration about his early family life.

His voice quivering, Karitsa said he loved his father in spite of his strictness.

He began pushing an ice cream cart 12 hours a day at the age of nine.

At times he broke down completely and needed time to compose himself.

Karitsis told a different story of the abduction of his sister, saying he was being pushed out by the family.

Things became very cruel.

He was very hurt by what Effie and his brothers did.

The jury stared at the defendant as he told of a vow he made over his mother's casket, promising to take care of the family.

He dropped a class ring in the coffin.

He said he made a cross on the wall in his own blood the day he broke the oath.

That was the day the family threw him out of the trailer park.

And we might add, Clyde, that the courtroom was packed all day.

I'll bet.

The Caritas trial began on October 3rd, 1977.

Witness after witness took the stand to reveal the checkered past of the man responsible for the kidnapping.

Although he had never been convicted of a crime, Tony had a history of violence.

A few years earlier, Tony had pulled a gun on two of his brothers, and he had terrorized his sister with an axe and held her captive for two days while he negotiated with his family.

Although he was initially resistant to the idea, Tony's defense team convinced him that the easiest path to acquittal was to plead insanity.

The prosecution argued that the Halls had behaved honorably in their dealings with Tony, and the defense never disputed that argument.

In fact, they agreed with that argument and suggested that only a crazy person would believe otherwise.

The defense's case was helped further when Tony Karitzas took the stand.

He apologized for his actions, but it was obvious that he sincerely believed that Dick Hall and his father had cheated him.

It was obvious that he was extremely paranoid.

Mr.

Karitzas, please rise and face the men, sir.

The form of the verdict is:

we, the jury,

find the defendant Anthony G.

Karitzas not guilty by reason of

just a minute, Mr.

Law.

We further find that the defendant Anthony G.

Karitzis committed the act charged in count three of the information

and that at the time the defendant was insane, is therefore not guilty by reason of insanity.

Please be seated.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry, sorry, Your Honor.

The Tony Karitsis verdict marked the first time that an acquittal had been broadcast live on national television.

The verdict was also announced over the public address system during an Indiana Pacers basketball game at Market Square Arena.

and the majority of the crowd started cheering when they heard it.

Tony Karitsis had become a cult of personality.

His entertaining rants and relatable misfortunes had elicited empathy from the public.

Nobody likes bankers, and everybody loves an underdog.

Even if the underdog is a misguided madman who was ruled legally insane.

The public support and idolization of Tony Karitsis continues to this day.

Read the comments of any YouTube video about the case, and you will find the prevailing sentiment to be that Dick Hall had it coming.

Even though Tony Caritzes had been found not guilty, he was not free to go home.

After refusing to submit to a psychological evaluation, he was held in contempt of court and incarcerated in various mental health facilities for the next 11 years.

The land that he had fought to protect was eventually foreclosed on and sold at a public auction where it was purchased for $180,000 by a loan bidder named Meridian Mortgage.

Tony was released from the Central State Hospital in January 1988.

He went on to live a fairly quiet life, with the exception of the 101 lawsuits he filed against former Indiana governors and other administrators related to his 11 years of detention.

Tony was also arrested in 1997 for attacking a neighbor with a baseball bat in a dispute over a driveway.

But other than that, he mostly kept to himself.

On January 28, 2005, Tony Karitsis was found dead in his apartment.

He was 71 years old.

In response to the Karitsis verdict and the similar John Hinckley trial for the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, in cases where the defendant pleads not guilty by reason of insanity, the burden of proof was shifted from the prosecution to the defense.

In other words, instead of requiring the prosecution to prove that the defendant is sane, the defense would now be required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused is legitimately insane.

Throughout the early 80s, nearly every state in the Union adopted this new law.

Soon after Dick Hall returned to the normal routine of his life, everything seemed to fall apart.

Within three years of the kidnapping, his father and both of his older brothers died.

Dick started drinking again.

He was arrested for driving while intoxicated.

His businesses collapsed due to a financial recession and a cooling real estate market.

He nearly lost the family home, and his wife Ibby filed for divorce in 92.

Yet, Dick Hall has said that the most difficult moment of the whole ordeal for him was when his seven-year-old daughter came home from school one day and told him that her friend's mother said Dick Caritza should have, quote, blown your head off.

Dick Hall tried to put the hostage event behind him.

He rarely talked about it with Ibby or his children, a decision that he says he still regrets to this day.

He ignored the media coverage of the Karitsis trial, but was kept abreast of the happenings from people who recognized him in public.

Dick Hall did not speak about the event publicly until he released his memoir in 2017 at 81 years old.

He says at this point, those three days as a hostage are little more than a blur in his memory.

But he does admit that every now and then, in his mind, he can still see the wild eyes of Tony Karitsis.

And I'm not trying to be corny.

I may be a flag waver, but I wave it a hell of a lot better than John Wayne, I'll tell you that.

Swindled is written, researched, produced, and hosted by me, a concerned citizen, with music by Ethan Helfrich.

Thanks again to Alan Berry and Mark Enoch, the directors of Dead Man's Line.

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I'm Saruti from Red Handed, the true crime podcast asking the questions no one else is asking.

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