Inside the ICE Deportation Tool

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I'm your host, Joseph, Joseph, and with me are 404 Media co-founders Emmanuel Mayberg.

Hello.

And Jason Kebler.

Hello.

Good to be here.

Thank you for having me

on your own podcast.

I nearly said Sam's name by accident just because my coffee hasn't kicked in.

I was just reading the script, Ray, Ray, Straight.

Let's get straight into it.

One story that Jason wrote, and then it'll relate to a story that we haven't actually published yet.

And I hope we publish it by the time this comes out.

But the first one inside a powerful database ICE uses to identify and deport people.

So quick context on what has happened with ICE recently in the US for those who don't know or need a primer.

I mean, ICE agents recently arrested a green card holding student at his interview to become a US citizen.

There was another case where plainclothes officers picked up a student off the street for deportation, despite the State Department finding no evidence she was linked to anti-Semitism or Hamas as claimed.

And then the American and the El Salvadorian presidents deflected when they were asked who was going to return a man who was mistakenly deported to a foreign mega prison, well, in El Salvador.

And Trump has also called for deporting U.S.

citizens to the country as well.

That sort of all of the context is happening everywhere.

We find a way into this story in the best way that we know, and that is by looking sort of the technical infrastructure behind all of this.

And Jason, you wrote this piece about a database called Investigative Case Management System, or ICM, which serves as the core law enforcement case management tool for ICE.

and specifically Homeland Security Investigations, although as we discuss, it's a little bit broader than that.

So, fill us in.

What does this database and more broadly a search tool do exactly?

Yeah, so I mean, I think I guess I'll just caveat the whole conversation with the discussion around immigration enforcement and the revoking of visas and you know, actions against universities and protesters and social media searches of college students and things like that.

Like,

that's the context in which all of this is happening.

It's very difficult unless you're an immigration expert to keep track of everything that is happening right now because there's like

dozens of ongoing court cases.

There's a recent Supreme Court ruling about a Brego Garcia, who's a Maryland man who's in the El Salvadorian mega prison.

And I think, like you said, the strategy that we have for covering this is sort of figuring out what technical infrastructure might be powering

these uh

like the detentions more or less or like how how is ice identifying people who it wants to deport and then what is the technical infrastructure underneath that and so

it's not like uh donald trump was inaugurated in january and suddenly he built like a very powerful surveillance infrastructure.

It's like ICE has been doing really advanced surveillance.

Customs and Border Patrol has been doing really advanced surveillance.

DHS more broadly, which is the bigger

department that both ICE and Customs and Border Patrol and a few other agencies fall underneath, have been building up this surveillance apparatus since DHS was founded after 9-11.

And what we wrote about was this database called the Investigative Case Management System, which I believe was created in like maybe 2013, 2014.

Like it's been around for more than a decade,

but it has gotten more powerful over the last few years.

And what it does is it allows

HSIS, which is Homeland Security Investigations.

Sorry, HSI.

It allows HSI.

There's so many acronyms, but it allows HSI.

There's so many acronyms.

And I cover DHS specifically a lot.

And there's so many acronyms inside the acronyms, you know.

Right.

So it was created for for Homeland Security Investigations, which is like an investigative arm of ICE, which is immigration and customs enforcement, to search like a bunch of different databases that the government has.

And it's like a data warehouse, I guess you'd call it, where,

you know, customs and border protection has dozens and dozens of different databases.

It pulls all of them in.

And if you want to search for, let's say, every blonde person who is in the system, it will show that to you.

And then you can filter that.

So you can say, like, their port of entry was, you know,

at

the San Diego border crossing.

You can say they are on a specific type of visa, for example.

There's also

filters for different types of body marks, meaning scars or tattoos.

And we know that the Trump administration has been looking at, you know,

they have like a scorecard essentially, determining whether people who have specific types of tattoos should be deported.

And so this is like a mechanism that we know of that would allow for the types of pickups that we have seen over the last few months.

Yeah.

And

as you said, this has been around for some time.

And we'll talk about the Palantir connection shortly.

And, you know, other people have covered it.

The Intercept has done some really good coverage.

I mean, a few years ago at this point, but that was very, very useful for our own article.

But what

did you see

exactly

that provided a little bit more insight into what this database is and how it works?

And of course, I appreciate you have to be careful here in what you describe exactly, but you got some more insight, basically, into how it functions.

Yeah, so the existence of this database is not a secret.

And as you mentioned, the intercept did an article a few years ago that was pretty good.

And then when this database was created, they had to do something called a privacy impact assessment, which is where you file a report with,

I believe, like a government oversight.

It's internally into DHS.

Yeah.

Whenever there's like, oh, we're going to start selling location data, I think they have to do a privacy.

threshold one first and that determines whether you need to then do a privacy impact assessment and then you do that and it's like oh this this is all of the data that's going to be in here.

And is it going to impact people?

Is it going to include biometrics?

And yeah, it's like an internal process, which is supposed to provide checks and balances.

So you don't have agencies just running around buying all of the fancy surveillance tech they could

they want.

You know, there's some sort of measure there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They need to determine like whether it's constitutional or make an argument as to why this technology is needed.

So we'll talk more about that in a second.

But basically, I had a source who showed us different parts of this database and sort of how it works.

And so we were able to see the types of categories of information that can be filtered by.

And to be clear, it's hundreds of different

characteristics, including like biographical information, but then also, again, like port of entry,

where the U.S.

government believes this person may live,

you know, automated license plate reader data.

So if they have a car registered to them, like and they're driving around, like where they were last spotted, things like that.

I'm just going to read from the article because I think the specifics are probably helpful.

So

it says 404 media saw a recent version of the database, which allows filtering according to hundreds of different categories, which include things like resident status and entry status, which includes like refugee, border crossing card, non-immigrant alien, refused admission, temporary protective status alien, student visa, things like that.

And then it also includes, quote, unique physical characteristics, examples, scars, marks, tattoos, criminal affiliation, location data, license plate reader data, country of origin, hair and eye color.

race, social security number, birthplace, place of employment, driver's license status, bankruptcy filings, and hundreds more.

And then I had a source, the original source who talked to me described it as a database that has, quote, tables upon tables of data that can be used to build like really powerful reports.

So again, you can imagine wanting, like the Trump administration wanting to filter all student visas who are going to a specific college, who came from a specific country, who have a specific marking or something like that.

that.

Like there's different ways that you can slice and dice the reports up that make it like really, really powerful.

Yeah.

And the data isn't really being created by ICM.

It is more pulling all this different stuff together.

So it connects, as you say, in the piece to other DHS and federal databases, including one with all the student visas in it or details about those people who have those visas.

Real-time maps associated with ICE's location tracking tools, which obviously I found particularly interesting,

given it could be smartphone location data, but I guess we don't really know the license plate stuff.

And then very importantly, and again, this was kind of supported by the Intercept's coverage, information from other federal agencies.

And the Intercept reported that, you know, that's the DEA, the FBI,

the ATF, and potentially even the CIA as well.

So this all comes together.

And it seems like it started for one purpose and then it's merged into another when other parts of ICE have started to get access.

What do you know

about specifically ICE's enforcement and removal operations, which is the part that deports people?

Do they have access?

Like it seems so, right?

They do have access.

And again, The tricky thing here is we don't know specifically what database and what tools ICE is using right now to pick people up off the street and to identify people who should, you know, quote unquote, should be detained.

And I spoke to three different experts who said, it's really important that we do know which parts of ICE have access to this and exactly how they are identifying people because

the fundamental like underlying bedrock of privacy within the government is

If you interact with one part of the government for one purpose, that data sharing across agencies is like a really big potential privacy violation.

And soon after we've reported this, or actually the morning that we published this,

the IRS announced that it would be sharing data with ICE.

And so

like that's a perfect example where you have people who are paying taxes and they're paying taxes under this idea that they're like contributing to society and following the rules and

they're interacting with this like civilian part of the government and then you have that part of the government sharing that information with a law enforcement uh you know entity that that then can use it against them and so again this was created uh for hsi which does you know it's i mean they do security investigations they do everything exactly they do i think that they fashion themselves as like we do really

like we're catching like cartels and we're catching like really big-time drug traffickers and things like that.

And then they can, like, refer a case to ERO, which is enforcement and removal operations.

But the privacy impact assessments say that

enforcement and removal operations also has access to this database, but perhaps under a little bit more limited basis.

But then, also, government lawyers have access to it.

And it seems like over the last few years, more and more parts of the government have gotten access to this database.

And the database has gotten more powerful as more agencies have poured data into it.

Yeah.

And of course, the privacy impact assessments you're referring to, I mean, one dates from 2016, which is almost ancient history by this point.

Like it lays out the foundation of what this is, but who knows in 2025 exactly who has access?

And of course, it'd be very interesting to see a list of that.

Well, I also said at the beginning of this, like we built this apparatus a long time ago, sort of not knowing exactly what it would be used for, how it would be used.

And, you know, this was built under either Obama or perhaps even, I think it was built under Obama or maybe Bush.

And here we are, like 20 years later.

And one of the things in the privacy impact assessment was like

this data is going to pull information from people who are not suspected as being criminals.

And one of the potential privacy impacts is people who are not supposed to be investigated

could be investigated either mistakenly or on purpose by

an administration that is really hawkish on immigration.

And that's exactly what we're seeing now.

And that's what the experts I spoke to told me.

And then I think this is probably where you're going, but this database is powered by Palantir,

which Palantir, you know, is Peter Thiel-founded surveillance company that serves as this very like powerful front end,

like a search tool that allows people to search through different databases.

Palantir has done like, we've done a lot of reporting on Palantir over the years.

I think you're more of an expert on what Palantir can and cannot do or whether, or what its different tools can do.

But yeah, there's like, quite a lot of money that goes into this.

I think it was like a $95 million

contract for five years.

So I don't know.

That's a pretty big database and a pretty big contract.

Yeah.

Linking all of that data together in a usable format takes a lot of cash and actually requires a lot of resources as well.

And yeah, so that leads on to my piece, which should be out by the time we air this.

Forgive me if the headline has changed because I haven't approved this with you guys yet, but this is the one I have in my Google document.

ICE just paid Palantir tens of millions for, quote, complete target analysis of known populations, end quote.

And this is part of the same contract you just mentioned, Jason, the 90, the 95 million.

But what you can do if you search through U.S.

procurement databases is you see updates to that contract because, oh, they start doing this, and then maybe they add something on, or they tweak something, and you see the money's amount,

the amount of money being exchanged.

But also there's sometimes little notes next to whatever that change is.

And I was going through the ones for ICE and Palantir and most of them are boring.

Under the Biden administration, they're all just, this is for updates, this is for maintenance, whatever.

And then a couple from March and April of this year are much more explicit.

And I think this relates to sort of the shifting of the priorities of different administrations that you alluded to.

So, one of the sections of these contracts says the payment is to, quote, deploy new targeting and enforcement prioritization, self-deportation tracking, and immigration lifecycle process capabilities, end quote.

That is a lot of jargon, a lot of corporate speak, but the shifting priorities jumped out to me and the self-deportation stuff as well, which is what the Trump administration is trying to get some people to do.

And then another one said, quote, modification for data analytics to support support complete target analysis of known populations.

And again, I'm still writing this, but the experts I've spoken to, that's already very, very

concerning to them.

And I think

why I wanted to write this and why it stood out was that, you know, sometimes you have stories where it's like, oh, the tech company provides the underlying infrastructure for a project or a government program or something.

And in some ways, that can be very passive.

You know, oh, it's run on AWS.

It's run on Microsoft servers or something like that.

And that can still be very newsworthy, but it's not necessarily the most active thing in the world.

I think it's pretty clear here from these contract notes that Palantir is like actively working on and making updates to the technical infrastructure that's underpinning these mass deportations.

It's not just giving them a server to go run their tool on.

They are helping them.

At least that is what's alluded to in the contracting memos.

And they haven't responded to a request for comment yet.

But of course, if they do,

we'll include that in the piece.

Yeah, it's also like these things that were built a long time ago that you probably haven't heard about or that

just haven't been in the news for a long time because they're from 2012 or they're from 2017 or whatever.

Still being used, still being updated, still like a really big deal in this sort of new context.

So I think that's important to note.

For sure.

All right, we'll leave that there.

Keep an eye out for the new piece when it drops, and we're definitely going to keep following this.

When we come back, we're going to talk about the AI that calls your elderly parents

if you can't be bothered.

We'll be right back after this.

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Okay, our next story is from Joe, and the headline is, I tested the AI that calls your elderly parents if you can't be bothered.

Great headline, great little stunt story, but also a very interesting story.

Tell me about this service.

What is InTouch?

In Touch,

and yeah, you're right.

It's a stunt story.

We love those.

I mean,

sorry, that's derogatory.

It's a good story that includes a stunt and a stunt that includes one of our moms, which I always find funny.

Yeah,

I'm fine with it.

I know people may get like, they may bristle it.

having their story described by that, but like

I'm fine with it because it's one thing to write about it.

It's another to show people, oh, this is what it's like.

So InTouch is a company, I guess a startup as I think we call it.

And what they do is they promise to call your parents with an AI generated voice

if you're too busy or you're unable to do so.

I framed it as can't be bothered.

That is, of course, my read on it.

And I think the read of my mum, who we'll get into as well.

But I think the the best way to hear about InTouch is just to sort of read the marketing copy on their website.

So, what they say is: busy life, you can't call your parent every day, but we can.

In Touch is not just a call, it sparks meaningful, mind-stimulating conversations with your parent through daily engaging calls.

In Touch helps your parent build new habits that stimulate their mind, support their emotional well-being, and reassure you.

I mean, it is what it says, It delivers what it says.

That's what it does.

What are they pitching as the result?

What do they hope to accomplish by doing this?

If there's anything aside from the fact that it saves you the time of calling your parents, yeah, they don't market it aggressively as

this will save you time.

It's like much more, you know,

allegedly empathetic in that it's more, oh, you're helping your parents or your grandparents grandparents or whoever.

So, on the site, they say that their tool will support mental fitness, and that's through stimulating their memory.

You know, you can chat to them about old stories or old events in their life.

They may want to talk about engaging discussions.

So, maybe they'll play a game or it'll ask questions and that sort of thing, and potentially sharpen their mind.

So, there's all of that sort of stuff.

And then it even starts to talk about,

you know, dementia potentially as well, and reducing loneliness.

And

I spoke to the founder and they said it was a way to connect with

some of their family members that they're not able to contact all of the time.

So it's sort of an all-in-one solution for keeping in touch with

engaging

them as well and potentially, you know, actually solving some health issues as well.

Although, of course, I mean, that's not proven.

It's not like medically approved or anything like that.

It's just an AI tool.

Yeah, I think what's interesting about that point is that I believe there is a lot of research that shows the

detrimental impact of loneliness to your health, especially in old age.

Like, as you say,

reduced social connections are associated with like more cases of dementia and all that.

But I don't believe there's any research that exists that would say that this would be a sufficient replacement for like actual connections with human beings and community.

So that's a really good point.

What is the process for signing up?

Like if I want to do this for my parents,

what do they need from me?

It's actually pretty simple.

And I obviously didn't really get into this because it's not really the point of the story.

But the sign-up process is actually pretty smooth in that there is this 14-day free trial and

you create an account, you give it the phone number you want to dial, you tell it, oh,

I'm the son or the gra or this is my grandparent or my parent or whatever.

You give it the phone number.

You also give it some topics that you may want the automated

system to bring up.

I think I brought up, oh yeah, my fictional grandparent called Patrick loves Mario and hates Sonic.

I don't know.

I I was looking for something inflammatory, you know, obviously.

And I think I brought up Mario speedrunning as well.

I kind of choked when it asked me, what do you actually want to talk about?

So you do all that.

And then it actually gives you a prompt as well, like, hey, these calls,

you should tell your parent beforehand they're going to receive a call from an AI, which is obviously, I mean, duh.

Yes, you should absolutely do that.

And imagine if you didn't.

It gives you a little script like, oh, hey, mom, I've signed you up to this service, it will call you between 9 a.m.

and 12 p.m.

And it's just so I can make sure that you're okay.

And you do all that, and then it places an initial call,

and

it sort of develops from there.

And I guess now would actually be a good time to listen to one of those calls, which would last about a minute.

I think I did trim the audio, but this was the first call I received from the AI.

And I am an AI companion.

Arrange for us to have a chat from time to time.

I assume they have told you about me.

Is that right?

Yes.

It's wonderful to meet you.

I understand this might feel new or a bit weird, and that's completely okay.

Everyone feels like this at the beginning.

There's no right or wrong way to chat with me.

We can talk about anything, your memories, hobbies, history, geography, food recipes, or even play word games together.

Does that sound good to you?

Or do you want to know more about what I do?

I'd like to know more about what you do.

Let me think for a second.

I'm part of a friendly service designed to talk to wonderful people like yourself.

Our calls usually last around five to ten minutes.

just for fun.

Sometimes I can also share messages from your family.

They've told me how much they care about you.

Oh, and one last thing, since I'm still learning every day, sometimes I might misunderstand something or make a mistake.

If that happens, just let me know.

I really appreciate your patience.

Does that sound good to you?

That sounds good.

So that was the call.

Emmanuel, did you listen to?

The audio.

I think Jason did.

I don't think I heard an actual call.

Dude, the calls are really good.

The calls are like,

you're very earnest with them, is what I would say, because I really feel like it's the closest thing I've come to hearing you

speak to a therapist.

Yeah, you don't hear me talk to anybody apart from you.

That's going to be the very, very different context.

And then one of our subscribers left a comment that was like, I wish there was a service where Joseph would phone up my parents or something.

And I was like, oh, okay.

I guess.

I'm just chatting to an AI.

I don't know.

What did you make of the call, Jason?

Was it unsettling?

Like, I mean, the AI bit, not me, although.

So I found it to be sad in that I knew what it was for.

I knew what it was.

And I think

I can see the reason that this tool exists, like theoretically, where there's a lot of like elderly folks who

are very lonely and perhaps are beginning to experience something like dementia or alzheimer or something like that where they end up telling the same stories over and over and over again you know i've had several grandparents who uh have had alzheimer's and

talking to them can be really difficult because you just have to You have to have like endless patience, essentially.

And so here's a tool that has endless patience.

It will talk to them forever.

For $29.90 a month, it has endless patience.

For $29.99 a month.

And I don't know if you can leave it on 24-7 or not.

I will also say my grandparents didn't sleep very much as they got older.

Like they were sleeping like two, three hours a day.

So I don't know.

Maybe if this robot wants to talk to them for 20 hours a day, that is possible.

That would be

interesting to know.

But

regardless, it's pretty like dystopian because,

you know, it's like you're just outsourcing this emotional labor and what is supposed to be like a time to bond with your family to a robot.

But I guess what I'll say is that I appreciated that the voice in question was not trying to be your voice.

Like it was good that it was

very clearly to me like a robotic voice and not trying to be super

like warm and human like.

For some reason, that made it a little bit better for me.

That was my first question when Joe flagged the service.

That was like, does it train on your voice to make it sound like you?

Which would be even more black mirrory, but I agree with Jason.

Joe, so you actually talked to an expert about aging and technology, about this service.

What did they think about it?

Yeah.

And I'll just read out their quote really because it's very succinct.

But I am not an expert in

aging and technology.

Like I didn't feel like I felt like I had to have some outside input on this one.

So one person I spoke to, they said, quote, in general, while AI tools may offer supplemental support for older adults, their use must be approached with humility, honesty, and a deep understanding of the symbolic power of human presence and caregiving relationships.

Technology may speak, but it cannot yet care in the way that human relationships can.

That's a pretty good quote.

It comes in via remote.

I'm like, damn, that's actually really, really well written.

Thank you for that.

But I think that goes to the point that you make, Emmanuel, which is like,

about impersonating voices because that would be insane.

Like, this is already dystopian, but that would be even crazier.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, you could do it with your own voice today, though.

It's like the technology is here with other tools, yeah, with other tools.

And it's like, I don't know what this company plans on doing, but that could easily be like a premium tier that they offer tomorrow.

Like, the technology is easily here for sure.

And when you first filed this piece, I got to the end and I was like, how dare you not include a quote from the only expert I care about hearing from, which is your mom, M-U-M mom what did she have to say about this service yeah I don't like doing that I feel like I've done it once before when it was like testing out security tools to oh see how user-friendly they are and it's like mom can you try this to see if you can manage this encryption encrypted email service or something it's a good sign if she can but here yeah it was just to ask how would you feel

if you know your child and I didn't even say specifically me I kind of wanted to disassociate myself somehow.

But like, if your child was to hypothetically use this AI service,

how would you feel?

And, you know, she spoke about the coldness of the voice, which on one side, Jason was like, that's kind of a positive.

And I think my mum didn't react very well to it.

But then at the end of the article, she says, quote, I would feel terrible.

that they referring to children are not bothered about phoning me themselves.

And I think that sums it up, right?

And you can have, as the founder of this company, you could have the best intentions in the world.

You could really think you found a use case.

And maybe for some people, you have, you know, but hey, the people in my family are like rejecting this.

They don't want anything

to do with this.

And I think that's an absolutely

valid response.

Someone has added something to the Google Doc, which is insane.

Wait, before that, I wanted to ask, I have to ask, because it's like part of the pitch in the marketing copy is like, if you can't find the time to call your parents, which is, I don't know, it can be like 15 minutes, you know what I mean?

To like call your mom,

which

I understand it's not everyone's, everyone's favorite thing to do all the time, but it's also not hard to do.

I call my mom like once a week at least.

And I don't know.

I think 404 media's position officially is you should call your mom and not have a robot do it.

Do you guys, do you guys do it like, I don't know, once a week-ish?

Yeah, something like that.

And I think that's the editorial style.

And I would just say that.

I think it's like if you have a good relationship with your parents

where you like them.

So we don't get fools.

Yeah, if they're monsters,

if they're monsters, you don't need to call them.

But if you like them,

please find time to do so.

15 minutes, not a big deal.

It's like...

Everyone has 15 minutes.

I don't talk to my parents every week on the phone, I would say, but a little more often than that, or a little bit less often than that.

But they're always very happy when I do.

My mom also listens to this podcast, so I consider that to be, I consider that to be me calling her because she gets the updates on my life.

She gets through phones.

You can't do that.

You should be like, oh, yeah, I call my mom every week, and it's because she just listens to the 45-minute podcast.

She's like, what's new in your life?

And I'm like, I'm reporting about ICE.

Like, what more do you need?

Didn't you hear it on the first 20 minutes of the 404 media podcast?

I often bet you guys text, right?

Yeah, I text.

My dad actually called me right before this, by the way, because he drives a lot for work.

And so he calls me while he's bored on the road.

And he called me right before this.

And I was like, I cannot talk.

I have to go on the podcast.

Dude, we should have live brought him in, you know?

Well, he was telling me about how there's like, he was mad about the service fees on

some baseball tickets that he purchased.

Oh, okay.

okay

pretty best we don't then um before we get to this thing in the google doc which i still can't tell is a joke or not and i'm going to defer to you to punt it or do it what i would say is that rather than using an ai tool to optimize calling your parents what about all that time you've saved optimizing your job using chat gpt or presumably what people do using you're supposed to use that time to do more work oh not call your because i was gonna say you're supposed to 10 extra output based on what you

and then you.

But that is a great point.

It's like, if you have an AI assistant doing your job for you, you should have more time to call your parents.

To do more human shit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then you get the AI to do the human shit.

Like, what are you going to do the rest of your life?

All right.

Somebody do this last week.

This is real.

This is absolutely real.

You don't remember this?

The question is more of a statement.

Emmanuel, tell us about when you paid a service to break up with your wife for you,

which was very similar to this, I feel.

Yeah, so this is 10 years ago now,

but there was something going viral on Twitter, I believe, which was a service you pay to break up with your girlfriend.

And

with

my then-girlfriend's consent,

I used this service.

Then girlfriend, now wife and mother of my child.

I paid them $30 to break up with my girlfriend.

And I'm looking at the vice story, unfortunately, just because of like,

you know, how bad the internet is at archiving things.

All the images in the story are gone.

But I was kind of chatting her at the same time she was getting the call from this service who did it, which, by the way, in 2015 was a human, like an actual person.

And we have a recording of this somewhere.

An actual person called.

My girlfriend and was like, hey, Emmanuel is no longer interested in seeing you and he's ending the relationship.

And today that would be AI, probably, right?

Like he could probably relaunch the service as an AI audio.

Has never done that?

I guess

it's so low-hanging fruit that people are like, not even going to make a company for that, you know?

But the product didn't work because you got married.

So the product sucked.

Yeah, I guess so.

All right.

Leave it there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

I genuinely couldn't understand if that was a joke or not.

Okay, I'm going to go read that in a minute.

We will leave that there.

If you're listening to the free version of the podcast, that will now play us out.

But if you are a paying 404 media subscriber, we're going to talk about the hack of notorious message board 4chan.

We're going to bring on our new regular contributor, Matthew Golt.

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