Rise of Nero

Speaker 1 Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated in the Tudorberg Forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland? Or what made Alexander truly great?

Speaker 1 With a subscription to History Hit, you can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists.

Speaker 1 You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week covering everything from the ancient world to World War II.

Speaker 1 Just visit historyhit.com/slash subscribe.

Speaker 3 Dashing through the store, Dave's looking for a gift.

Speaker 2 One you can't ignore, but not the socks he picks.

Speaker 3 I know, I'm putting them back.

Speaker 4 Hey, Dave, here's a tip: put scratchers on your list.

Speaker 5 Oh, scratchers, good idea.

Speaker 6 It's an easy shopping trip.

Speaker 3 We're glad we could assist.

Speaker 7 Thanks, random singing people.

Speaker 8 So be like Dave this holiday and give the gift of play.

Speaker 9 Scratchers from the California lottery. A little play can make your day.

Speaker 10 Please play responsibly. Must be 18 years or older to purchase play or claim.

Speaker 11 Hey guys, it's Paige from Giggly Squad, and if you're anything like me, holiday shopping has officially started. And you know where I'm going? Ulta Beauty.

Speaker 11 They have the cutest gift sets right now, like the Sol de Janeiro, Shea Rosa, and Cheer Perfume Mist Trio. It smells so good.
I've been missing it everywhere. On me, on the street, on my pillow.

Speaker 11 It's a whole vibe. I'm obsessed with the Tarte Kindness Cafe Collector set.
It's packed with everyday makeup must-haves, and it's honestly too cute to wrap.

Speaker 11 And if you you need a cozy little self-care moment, the Moroccan Oil Hand Care Essentials kit is luxe, hydrating, and smells delicious. Don't worry if you can't decide right now.

Speaker 11 An Ulta Beauty gift card is the perfect gift for everyone. So whether you're gifting your bestie or yourself, make the season yours and head to Ulta Beauty today.
Ulta Beauty gifting happens here.

Speaker 3 Okay,

Speaker 11 only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line.

Speaker 3 But first.

Speaker 3 There,

Speaker 11 the last one.

Speaker 11 Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that

Speaker 11 refreshes.

Speaker 1 Hey everyone, another Ancients episode for you today on the Rise of Nero. Nero, of course, one of the most infamous names from ancient history today.

Speaker 1 But it's boring the rise really wanted to do this because it feels lesser talked about than the big events of Nero's reign, such as the Great Fire of Rome or the persecution of Christians.

Speaker 1 So it will be interesting to hear in the comments

Speaker 1 whether your thoughts about Nero have changed at all after listening to the story of his earlier years.

Speaker 1 Now our guest today, very excited about this one, is the acclaimed historical fiction author Con Iguldon. Now, we were very excited to get Con on.

Speaker 1 I've been reading his books since I was very, very young. For instance, his series on Genghis Khan.

Speaker 1 So, it was a pleasure to meet him in person. We did this interview in person a couple of weeks back.
He was delightful.

Speaker 1 And as you're about to hear, he knows a lot about the Emperor Nero, about early Imperial Rome, because his newest book is all about the rise and early reign of Nero.

Speaker 1 So, without further ado, ado, let's get into it.

Speaker 1 In 54 AD, a 16-year-old Nero became the new ruler of Rome. The ailing Emperor Claudius, his stepfather, had died in suspicious circumstances, but the succession plan was clear.

Speaker 1 Rather than his own son, Britannicus, Claudius had decided that Nero, his adopted son, would be the next emperor. All thanks to the conviction of Nero's cunning mother, Agrippina the Younger.

Speaker 1 Having Agrippina by his side, alongside high-standing tutors like the famous philosopher Seneca, there was great hope for the teenage Nero.

Speaker 1 With family links stretching back to Augustus and Julius Caesar, here was a young, energetic emperor to rejuvenate the Julio-Claudian dynasty after years of scandal and murder.

Speaker 1 But that's not what happened. Within 15 years of his accession, Nero was dead.

Speaker 1 The Julio-Claudian dynasty ended, civil war erupted, and Nero would forever be remembered as one of Rome's worst and most evil emperors.

Speaker 1 From the great fire of Rome to his persecution of Christians, there are so many infamous episodes in Nero's story that have come down to us today. But what do we know about his earlier years?

Speaker 1 What was it like growing up as part of this dysfunctional imperial family where betrayal and murder was rife? And just how prominent a role did his mother play in his rise to the emperorship?

Speaker 1 This is a story of betrayals, of scandals and poisonings that have come to define the Julio-Claudian dynasty. This is the rise of Nero with today's guest, Con Iggledon.

Speaker 1 Con, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

Speaker 12 My pleasure.

Speaker 1 And this period in Roman history, it feels almost like a soap opera. You've got the stories of poisonings, of backstabbings, of members of the imperial family falling left, right, and center.

Speaker 1 It's another of those kind of Game of Thrones-esque moments in ancient history full of these incredible stories.

Speaker 12 It is.

Speaker 12 I mean, I think in some ways it's the origin of an awful lot of the family dispute quarrel fiction that has, you know, taken so many fantasy authors and historians, you know, to transports of delight in the 2,000 years since.

Speaker 12 This is the original. This is the mother load.

Speaker 1 And what makes the Julio-Claudian dynasty, of all Roman dynasties, what makes them so uniquely dysfunctional at this time?

Speaker 12 I mean, I don't think they were uniquely dysfunctional. It's just that because they influenced us in so many ways, I mean, right up to the Americans still having a Senate, for example.

Speaker 12 So we don't really take into account other dynasties that had similar levels of dysfunction. For example, the Egyptians with Cleopatra and married to her own brother and so on.

Speaker 12 So, or, you know, the Persian Achaemenid, you know, where one brother hired Spartans to come and fight for him against his other, you know, his brother who was going to be king and tried to kill him with a single blow on a single morning and failed.

Speaker 12 I mean, that kind of thing doesn't influence as many modern societies.

Speaker 12 So we don't sort of see it as our origin tales and there is an element of that and it's partly because of course unlike Genghis and to some extent unlike including Nero the Romans wrote their own history and so you can read the letters of Seneca you can read the histories of the time and very you know personalized personal records and that makes them real in a way that some other cultures are not as real to they're as real but they're not as personally important to us I did sort of regret saying uniquely dysfunctional as soon as you mentioned mentioned that, but I guess, as I said,

Speaker 1 is it the level, the detail, the depth of our surviving sources for this particular period and the richness in the stories that they have that makes this episode stand out a bit more compared to others?

Speaker 12 Well, I mean, first of all, the big first engine of it is Julius Caesar. Because, you know, we know there's a Roman society for centuries before, but for some reason we're not as interested in that.

Speaker 12 And then you get

Speaker 12 Julius Caesar turning a republic into effectively a one-man state, and he becomes dictator for life and has the right to wear red shoes which the last pope wouldn't do by the way even though he was pontifex maximus and the new pope is apparently going to wear the red shoes i don't know i love that because it's 2000 years old but that's the first big change when one man of extraordinary charisma and ability and let's face it battle talent because he never lost a battle he turned a functioning society into something else and the next few generations are echoes of him to a degree in the sense that they didn't do they didn't achieve as great a change by any means.

Speaker 12 But then they also have this extraordinary thing, which

Speaker 12 we don't exactly admire, but we can be awed by, the level of wealth that is accumulated by one man if he's sitting at the very top.

Speaker 12 When you hear of someone like Nero getting a statue 110 to 120 feet high of Apollo, but it had Nero's face with gold rays and

Speaker 12 set in a garden where rose mist sprayed at you as you walked down the alleys.

Speaker 12 I mean this sort of thing is awe-inspiring and it might be appalling and irritating when you think of poverty at the same time and all the rest of it. But my goodness, it does make a good story.

Speaker 1 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 And with the surviving sources that you have, I mean, what types of sources survive from the period of Nero and just before him that allow writers like yourself to go into such depth, so much colourful detail with the story of Nero?

Speaker 12 I mean, the first tragedy is what's missing, first of all, because there are entire key works missing. Nero's mother, Agrippina, wrote an autobiography that hasn't survived.
It hasn't reached us.

Speaker 12 The end of Tacitus, Nero's death, that's missing as well. So when you're reading a historian like Tacitus, and he's very good, he's exactly the one I wanted.
He was alive during Nero's life.

Speaker 12 His uncle, I think Agricola, was in Britain at the time.

Speaker 12 So he was a good source for the Boudicca or Bodicea, however you want to pronounce it. And so you've got this wonderful, almost first-person accounts of some of the key issues.

Speaker 12 And then you've got a gap because the end of Nero's life is just missing.

Speaker 12 So suddenly suddenly I'm forced to go to Suetonius who is a late well I mean he's most famous for being sort of the the the Sunday sport version of history and loving every scurrilous nine-in-a-bed romp um sort of sexualized story he loved all of that and he loved that much more than the detail so he hardly mentions boudica for example but he will mention the fact that Tiberius scrubbed a man's face with a lobster.

Speaker 12 I mean, this is the kind of detail that he loved.

Speaker 12 So it was very irritating to have to go to Suetonius for that because his end of Nero had Nero running through, you know, nightfall, running through Rome, knocking on doors, trying to get anyone to help him.

Speaker 12 In a Macbeth sense, having been abandoned by all of his friends and colleagues and no one answered the knock.

Speaker 12 And you know with near certainty that that is a fictional made-up scene, but it's a cracking sort of bit of drama. I just wish there were a couple of alternatives.

Speaker 12 And I like alternatives because then I can pick the best one.

Speaker 1 Because you have a very interesting approach to this as a historical fiction writer, as you said, understanding the sources that have survived from this time, deciding what to trust, what information to embellish, what information to reinterpret as well.

Speaker 1 I guess all those things must go through your mind when looking at the likes of Tacitus and Suetonius, Seneca, you mentioned earlier, surviving inscriptions and creating a story from it.

Speaker 12 Yeah, I mean, there are, bias is absolutely a key part of interpreting the sources.

Speaker 12 You get somebody, for example, well, After the death of Nero, you've got four people taking over the famous sort of year of four emperors that lasted about three years.

Speaker 12 And the first one is Galba, who had no right whatsoever to take over the power of Rome. He was about 70-odd or 78, I forget.
And he was already dying, and he was a placeholder, but he had legions.

Speaker 12 So he was someone that he had physical force behind him. And then after him, Otho, Nero's childhood friend.
who had again no right to sit the throne of Rome at all, but he had some support.

Speaker 12 And of course, those two, when it came to writing Nero's story, when it came to revising the histories or seeing how what his legacy was going to be, I wouldn't trust Otho in charge of those records.

Speaker 12 Otho's wife was one seduced and then married by Nero, for example. So would you trust a man you'd cuckolded with the personal record of your life? I don't think you would.

Speaker 12 And that's the you do get a sort of a split there because after Nero's death, there were three fake Neroes who turned up claiming to be him.

Speaker 12 And they were welcomed by crowds in Rome because he was a popular leader with the crowds. But the story was already diverging.

Speaker 12 And the further you get away, when you get to Josephus or Josephus, he was made a slave by Rome and then he was freed by Vespasian, who was the last in the year of the four emperors.

Speaker 12 So you're already into the narrative that has been established then. He's a regime historian to some extent, as is Cassius Dio.
And you get the story has been set up.

Speaker 12 We all know how bad Tiberius was, and he does appear to have been an absolute monster. And then, of course, you get Caligula, who was so horrific that four years went by before

Speaker 12 his own people stabbed him to death with no plan, which goes to show that it was an extraordinary act of sudden violence rather than something they planned for.

Speaker 12 And then you get Nero slotting into that sort of route fairly easily. And I think I do believe that it's not completely an unfair portrayal.
I think that would be wrong to say that.

Speaker 12 But I am more aware of him as a...

Speaker 12 tragic figure because he was 16 when he became emperor, because his mother pushed him into being emperor at 16 and because his uncle was Caligula his other uncles were two of them were murdered his mother was married at 13 to a man of 30 in a brutal marriage his grandmother was exiled blinded died in exile his grandfather was murdered Germanicus I mean he was surrounded I mean in terms of psychological damage and I try not to get too wrapped up in this kind of thing because it's a different society with different rules and different ideas of damage actually

Speaker 12 but in terms of psychological damage, Nero had almost no chance at all at a normal life. And I think that's an important part of the story.

Speaker 12 And that should be the way I try and tell the story because it's the only way to understand what happened to him.

Speaker 1 And it's similar with Caligula before him as well. It has also that very traumatic childhood.

Speaker 12 Caligula, dear God. I mean, he obviously he spent time.
I've stood on Capri on in the ruins of Tiberius' palaces, and I've looked down to where he threw people off and all the rest of it.

Speaker 12 And, you know, and some of the horrors that I won't repeat on radio, because honestly, they are unrepeatable horror.

Speaker 12 I think Tom Holland said in his recent translation that it was the worst sentence he'd ever sort of read in,

Speaker 12 you know, go and find it if you want to, but it's, yeah, he was a sort of, let's say, a Jimmy Savile of ancient Rome with ultimate power.

Speaker 12 And he had in his power from the age of, I think, about 18 to 24, something like that, this young man, Gaius Caesar, who was known as Caligula because he dressed in a, you know, a set of armor, little boot, but his damage.

Speaker 12 was profound. Of course it was.
What he saw, what he took part in, what happened to him. It's horrific.

Speaker 12 And the extraordinary thing about Caligula, also about Nero, and it applies, is that both of them tried very hard to walk the straight and narrow. Caligula was doing reasonably well.

Speaker 12 He got married, his wife got pregnant, he was showing no real sign of the dangerous psychopath he was about to become until his wife died in childbirth. And he lost the child and he lost his wife.

Speaker 12 And then the first one of his early stories is that he called her father in Solanus, the senator, and said, I want you to take a message to her and cut the old man's throat.

Speaker 12 So that he whispered the message and killed him so that he would take the message across the veil to his

Speaker 12 daughter. And that's the Caligula we all know and fear.
And the man who held Rome in abject terror for the next, it will take about three years

Speaker 12 before they went, his own Praetorians stabbed him to death. So these are...
appalling stories, but it's interesting that there is a story arc.

Speaker 12 They're not just men who started bad, stayed bad, and died bad. That, to be honest, as a writer, would not be that interesting to me.

Speaker 12 There is always an interesting arc when someone tries very hard, like Macbeth again. He's not just a monster.
He's a man who tries to do something and then get away with it and

Speaker 12 his guilt destroys them both. That is true for Caligula and Nero as well as Macbeth.

Speaker 1 And I feel this is the right topic to really explore that, covering the early story of Nero, where that becomes more clear to see, even in the surviving sources. Who are his mum and dad?

Speaker 1 Do we know much about their characters?

Speaker 12 We know a fair bit. Some things are absent and missing, as I said, but I mean, you know, it depends which one.
I was starting with his mother, Agrippina. I mean, she had a fairly happy childhood.

Speaker 12 Her father was the general Germanicus. Her mother was also called Agrippina.
And she and her, let's get it right, three brothers, two sisters, and herself. So there's what was that, six of them.

Speaker 12 They had a sort of idyllic Roman childhood. Her mother was a descendant of Augustus's sister, if I've got that right.
So there was a bloodline.

Speaker 12 And Germanicus, I think, was adopted by Tiberius at one point was that there was a chance that they were the imperial family in fact they were too obviously the imperial family because

Speaker 12 someone decided to take them out of the running and so the the violence began with the death of the father and we know germanicus was murdered not because it was obvious in any way but because his wife the agrippina the elder believed he was murdered and unfortunately accused people of being involved in it and picked Tiberius as one of the people to name.

Speaker 12 And that was a really awful error. It would be the equivalent of naming Henry VIII publicly and expecting to get away with it.
So, of course, she was picked up.

Speaker 12 And the story is that she was beaten so badly, she was blinded in one eye and then exiled to an island, and she never came back.

Speaker 12 It's one of the first things that when her son Caligula became emperor, one of the first things he did was go with his sister Agrippina to that island and bring the ashes back because this kind of thing mattered.

Speaker 12 But

Speaker 12 having lost first Germanicus and then Agrippina the Elder, the children were vulnerable. And they were still in the bloodline that could put one of them on the throne.

Speaker 12 So they were the most vulnerable children in creation. And two of them died in fairly horrific ways, the older brothers.
You know, they were the most vulnerable. The daughters less so.

Speaker 12 I mean, all three daughters survived. But the oldest two sons, one of them, I think, was starved to death.
And we know he was starved to death.

Speaker 12 because although it was claimed as a natural death, when they opened his stomach, it had straw inside it where he'd been trying to eat his mattress.

Speaker 12 So we know it wasn't a deliberate, you know, Romans have a funny attitude to suicide, as I'm sure you know.

Speaker 12 It was much more acceptable. It's impossible to oppress a man if you tell him to do something and he doesn't want to.

Speaker 12 He can step out and it's considered a completely honorable thing to do, and therefore it's extremely common.

Speaker 12 But the forced suicide, where you are effectively given the knife and or even have it held for you, you know, is also a key part of politics at the time.

Speaker 12 And I try not to judge that kind of thing, by the way, because, I mean, I have pretty strong views on suicide. I don't know whether it's, you know, ever acceptable or not.
And for me, it isn't.

Speaker 12 But I understand completely that I can't judge their society by my views. And I don't, you know, Seneca was forced to commit suicide, you know, Socrates and so on.

Speaker 12 You have, this is a common part of the stories of it's amazing how many lives it ends. And for me, it's not my place to judge.

Speaker 1 And in regards, so that's Agrippina the Younger, so the mother of Nero, who has all of this heritage, this link to Augustus, and then I guess through that to Julius Caesar.

Speaker 1 So the real pedigree on that side of the family. Nero's father, Lucius Ahinobarbus, is he slightly different?

Speaker 12 I mean it's funny in terms of the bloodline, he's descended from both Mark Antony

Speaker 12 and also another,

Speaker 12 I think he had the same name. Ahinobarbus means bronze beard.
So the chances are one of their relatives had a big bushy red beard. Nero is still sometimes shown with red hair and it is a possibility

Speaker 12 the way these nicknames, I mean, Plato, after all, means broad-shouldered. It wasn't his name.
We don't know what his name actually was.

Speaker 12 There are lots of little moments like that in Roman history where someone's given a name that has to do with their physical characteristics.

Speaker 12 But the Ahina Barbas that was his ancestor was the admiral for Mark Antony during the wars with Octavian and Cleopatra and so on. So, you know, he came from sort of fairly good stock.

Speaker 12 He was, you know,

Speaker 12 of a fairly decent family. I don't think they had a lot of money.
You know, to some extent, he was marrying up when he married Agrippina.

Speaker 12 But it is worth pointing out that it was an unhappy marriage he was ahina barbas was 30 when he married agripina at 13.

Speaker 12 wow and i assume she was pre-menstrual because they didn't have children uh as presumably everyone hoped for and i think near nero was certainly the only one born but i think that happened about seven years into the marriage so you know theirs was not a happy union and he died fairly early on we don't know how it's one of the it's what when i talk about historical fiction as crime fiction there's an awful lot of deaths that you don't know exactly how and it's partly because if it's an emperor you never say oh i was in the room i was involved in strangling tiberius or something like that you know no one is stupid enough to ever put their name to that but there's an awful lot of it's also pre mostly pre-post-mortem sometimes you know a little rudimentary one goes on but we don't know why someone died and also in those days people just died sometimes so it's very difficult to know whether it was a wound that went septic or sudden septic shock or some disease that they couldn't handle some viral load goodness knows what so um nero's father Hinobarbas, died when Nero was, I think, about three.

Speaker 12 Wow, okay. Andrew.
And very early. And it is one of those interesting things, just again, to get onto modern psychological take.
And I shouldn't, I should avoid it, but it's

Speaker 12 hard to ignore these patterns. That when I look at, let's say, ruthless high achievers, usually they've lost their father at a key age.
Usually, by the way, it's between 11 and 15.

Speaker 12 It's not as young as three. Young as three can leave you, you know, they have no concept of what a father is.

Speaker 12 Whereas 11 to 15, they have a concept and they can never again feel the pat on the shoulder that says, Well done, son, and they can never therefore feel approved of.

Speaker 12 And that means they often overachieve. It's a surprisingly common pattern throughout history.
Now, whether this affected Nero or not, I don't know. He had a second father who also died.

Speaker 12 Was Agrippina involved in his death or not? It's very hard to say. Claudius was his third father, and Claudius died suddenly when it looked as if he was about to disinherit Nero as heir.

Speaker 12 So I would say that one is as near certain as humanly possible. And after all, Agrippina didn't muck about on the night Claudius died, Nero was emperor the following morning announced.

Speaker 12 The motive is so clear there that I'm pretty I'm comfortable saying that she definitely did away with Claudius, but whether she did away with the others, I don't know.

Speaker 12 In terms of being a black widow, however, whose husbands kept dying, yes, but she was the sister of Caligula, for goodness sake, from that awful damaged family.

Speaker 1 How could she not be completely ruthless and a Roman operator at the highest level with no moral qualms whatsoever we're going we've got a few years to cover before we get to the end of Claudius and the the accession of Nero but still very good taste of what's to come you mentioned there how it was several years into the marriage of uh henobarbus and agrippini the younger before nero is born i mean can you let us know a bit about when nero is born and the political context the world in to which he is born into i mean what date are we talking about when are we talking about it was a d 37 when he was born.

Speaker 12 By the way, I'm comfortable that we use AD and BC good because

Speaker 12 the BCE CE business drives me up the wall.

Speaker 1 I don't mind people using it on the podcast, but I prefer, I usually say AD.

Speaker 12 It's just get your own origin point. You know, it's unbelievable.
Because

Speaker 12 I'm enough of a lover of history to know that the French Revolution had their own dating system. The Chinese obviously do today.
The Russians, you know, did. Just pick your own origin point.

Speaker 12 You can't have the same origin point where BCE turns to CE and then just claim it's especially common era. I mean, dear God, that's so Orwellian.

Speaker 12 You know, just in language use, that offends me enormously. But yes, okay, in case you go back.
Sorry, yes, back to the

Speaker 12 AD 37. And he's, let me see, now he's emperor at 16, which is what, 54.
Yeah, because he was born very late in the year. So AD 37, Tiberius is still on the throne, but...
not an active participant.

Speaker 12 These are the years when he's gone to Capri. He's lost in his own perverse pleasures, perverse orgies.
God knows what you would call that, the sickness at the end of his life.

Speaker 12 And he's left a friend, a man called Sir Janus, in control in Rome.

Speaker 12 And it's funny, as an example of power corrupting, Sir Janus obviously starts to assume airs and graces that Tiberius certainly didn't intend. So he has statues made to himself and he has coins.

Speaker 12 Coins are an interesting record of the period, the way people's faces appear on them.

Speaker 12 Agrippina appears in the background of some and then facing Nero on one of the coins and it's a sort of rise in power and Sir Janus really made himself too obvious in his new exciting authority and eventually Tiberius heard about it and came back and he, because he was still emperor, he was a vicious old spider at that point, but nonetheless he was still capable of giving the order and he had Sejanus strangled and thrown down the Gaimonian steps, if I remember rightly, where it was a fairly common sort of of public, you know, the body would bounce down the steps and then the crowd would fall on them and, you know, beat them and tear them to pieces.

Speaker 12 And it was a pretty public way of disposing of an enemy and making it perfectly clear this one would not be coming back or have anyone claim to be them. This one was definitely dead.

Speaker 12 You know, then you get the problem of what to do with Tiberius's succession, but he didn't live very long after that. And we don't know exactly what happened to Tiberius.

Speaker 12 You know, he was the rumor was, and these have to be rumors, because no one is going to admit being in the same room as an emperor who went to sleep alive and doesn't wake up.

Speaker 12 So we think he was smothered in his bed, and we think the head of the Praetorians, I think it was called Macron,

Speaker 12 was involved. And we think Caligula was either present or, for all we know, he was jumping up and down on him.
It's not the kind of thing that you would be.

Speaker 12 that he ever admitted to, but another violent event in his past that would be something to resurface and come back as trauma. Yeah, very possibly.
Certainly, he was the obvious one who benefits.

Speaker 12 And whenever you get one obvious person who benefits, then you say, well, you know, there's your motive.

Speaker 12 So Caligula becomes emperor, I think, aged about 24 odd. And as I say, started off, you know, very well.
But that's the world into which Nero is born.

Speaker 12 Agrippina, at this point, is still married to Ahina Barbas. Yeah, first marriage.

Speaker 1 And so infant Nero, I know Caligula doesn't last very long, but infant Nero, then his uncle. His uncle was on the throne.
His uncle is Caligula. So

Speaker 1 he's close to the royal family when he's an infant. But things you mentioned already, Agenobarbus dies when Nero is only three years old.
And Agrippina as well, she doesn't fare so well.

Speaker 12 No, she doesn't. Well, she was banished and sent away by Tiberius.
And then when Claudius, obviously her brother, becomes emperor, he brings her back from banishment.

Speaker 12 And her mother was banished and sent away to an island and never came home. So the idea of her being banished, that would have been an incredibly dark period for her.

Speaker 12 She would not have expected to come home. And then the impossible happens.

Speaker 1 This episode is sponsored by Ruler.

Speaker 1 Finding a therapist who not only has time for new clients but also actually takes your insurance can feel impossible. Deciding to reach out and ask for help is huge.

Speaker 1 To then be hit by wall after wall can be so demoralizing.

Speaker 1 Many therapists don't take insurance packages at all, which means that you're stuck paying the full cost out of pocket or paying for an expensive monthly subscription. That's where Ruler comes in.

Speaker 1 They partner with over 100 insurance plans, making the average co-pay just $15 per session.

Speaker 1 Now that's real therapy from licensed professionals chosen based on your particular situation at a price that actually makes sense.

Speaker 1 You use your insurance benefits to maintain your physical health, so why wouldn't you do the same for your mental health?

Speaker 1 Thousands of people are already using Ruler to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. Visit ruler.com slash ancients to get started.

Speaker 1 After you sign up, you'll be asked how you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you.
That's rula.com slash ancients.

Speaker 1 You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget.

Speaker 13 Hey there, it's Ryan Seacrest for Safeway. Flu season is here, and our pharmacies have you covered with a free flu shot with most insurance plans.
Plus, it's cough and cold season.

Speaker 13 And now, through December 2nd, stock up on all the season's essentials and get ready for relief with discounts on items like Mucinex Cold and Flu Kickstart, Musinex Fast Max products, VIX Daquil and Nyquil combo pack, Alca Celsur Plus, also Airborne and Afrin.

Speaker 13 Offers end December 2nd. Restrictions apply and offers may vary by location.
Visit Safeway.com for more details.

Speaker 3 Dashing through the store, Dave's looking for a gift.

Speaker 2 One you can't ignore. Run out out the socks he picks.

Speaker 3 I know I'm putting them back.

Speaker 4 Hey Dave, here's a tip. Put scratchers on your list.

Speaker 5 Oh scratchers, good idea.

Speaker 6 It's an easy shopping trip.

Speaker 3 We're glad we could assist.

Speaker 7 Thanks random singing people.

Speaker 8 So be like Dave this holiday and give the gift of play.

Speaker 9 Scratchers from the California lottery. A little play can make your day.

Speaker 10 Please play responsibly. Must be 18 years or older to purchase play or claim.

Speaker 11 Hear that? It's holiday cheer, arriving at Oldsa Beauty with gifts for everyone on your list. Treat them to fan-favorite gift sets from Charlotte Tilbury and Peach and Lily.

Speaker 11 Go all out with timeless fragrances from YSL, Ariana Grande, and Carolina Herrera.

Speaker 11 And you can never go wrong with an Ulta Beauty gift card. Head to Ulta Beauty for gifts that make the holidays brighter and even more beautiful.
Ulta Beauty. Gifting happens here.

Speaker 1 So Ahenobarbus, he dies when Nero is just three years old. And for Agrippina the younger as well, I mean, with Caligula, it's not all good news for her either.

Speaker 12 No, I mean, the point about this, at that point, Nero, her son, who was still then called Lucius, he hadn't had his sort of imperial name added, he was the only official blood heir of the Julian lion.

Speaker 12 And therefore, Caligula, when he had his tragedy, when he gets married and has a child, I don't know if it was a son, because it died in childbirth.

Speaker 12 I'm not sure whether that's recorded, but when he lost his child and he suffered through this appalling, bloody moment of savagery, then he was very uncomfortable with his sister having the only male blood heir of the line.

Speaker 12 And that's where he ends up. banishing her to an island, which was a horrific thing to do because their mother had been banished and had never come back.

Speaker 12 So, for Agrippina, it must have been the end of the world. She was separated from her son.
He went to live with an aunt, I think it was called Domitia,

Speaker 12 and an aunt who lived in near poverty because she'd had the first thing Caligula did, he took the estates and money away,

Speaker 12 partly because he was a profligate spender, but partly as a punishment.

Speaker 12 So he sent his sister away to an island and he sent the little boy, who can only have been, let's say, three, three or four, to live with an aunt and a barber and a male ballet dancer.

Speaker 12 I mean, she had lodgers. This was, you know, Nero's years of poverty.
And that should have been the end for Agrippina. That should have been the end of the line.

Speaker 12 I suppose, in theory, Caligula could have married, you know, or had endless children at that point. And he would have established his line.

Speaker 12 And like his own mother, Agrippina would have been a forgotten figure in history.

Speaker 12 But the extraordinary thing happened that only four years into Caligula's reign, his Praetorians panicked, murdered him on the spot on the Palatine Hill, and with no plan whatsoever.

Speaker 12 And then they had to look around for anyone. And they found Claudius, his uncle, the character who had survived Caligula's court by allowing himself to be a figure of mockery.

Speaker 12 He was a sort of baldric of the court, if you like. And

Speaker 12 in theory, a pathetic figure, but actually much brighter than he appeared, but he deliberately appeared unthreatening. And so they made him emperor.

Speaker 12 And one of the first things he did was forgive the Praetorians. Very sensible man.
He gave them an amnesty. After all, they had murdered an emperor.
They could do it again.

Speaker 12 So that was pretty sensible. And then one of the next things he did was to bring Agrippina, his niece, back from exile.
And she was restored to the bosom of her child.

Speaker 12 And you can only imagine how relieved she must have been.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. And it's so interesting, that period with the killing of Caligula and then Claudius rising to the fore.
And Agrippina, she's back from being exiled.

Speaker 1 And then how long is it before she then takes another step to then actually marry the Emperor Claudius?

Speaker 12 Well, I mean, she's around Claudius for some time. He's already married at this point, I think, to Messalina.
Yes. And who knows?

Speaker 12 It might not have come to anything, but there was this extraordinary moment where, again, Nero is still the only surviving blood heir of the line.

Speaker 12 And therefore, he's both uniquely dangerous to those who would consider they want their own children to be, but and also uniquely vulnerable because he's still a very young child.

Speaker 12 And you get this extraordinary story of assassins sent to his home to kill him in his bed. Wow.
And does this ring true?

Speaker 12 It obviously reminds you of Hercules a little bit, the strangling snakes in the crib, because, and there is that, that snake is on the cover of Tyrant.

Speaker 12 The story goes that the assassins saw a snake on his bed, a large reptile, and they were so afraid that they

Speaker 12 didn't dare to approach and they retreated or were caught retreating because obviously their presence was noticed. So the alarm went up.

Speaker 12 And then they found, I think it was a snake skin in the end, where a snake had shed its skin

Speaker 12 on the child's bed.

Speaker 12 So that skin was then incorporated into a resin bracelet which Nero wore for most of the rest of his life as a symbol of his extraordinary survival but Agrippina appeared to believe that that was the assassins had been sent by Messalina Claudius's wife and that was why that from that moment on I mean Messalina had her card marked and you know their struggle for power involved Agrippina winning and Messalina dying and that was you know part of her story because I think from the very beginning Agrippina after all why wouldn't she look at the possibility of power?

Speaker 12 She wasn't too worried about a sexual relationship with her uncle.

Speaker 12 She hadn't grown up with him, and I think was capable of manipulating any man, regardless of what the social morrows at the time would have been.

Speaker 12 But it was pretty acceptable as, you know, brother and sister know that would be the limit. As it brother and sister was acceptable in Egypt, but not in ancient Rome.

Speaker 12 But back to Nero, he survived the snake and kept the skin on its wrist for the rest of his life. And Agrippina slowly got closer to Claudius.

Speaker 12 And her ability to manipulate Claudius is one of the most extraordinary parts of this story.

Speaker 12 And it's, I say, my, when I started out writing, I said to my mother, I want to be a writer, and she said, you can't be a writer. She said, you don't know enough about people.

Speaker 12 And at the time, I said, oh, rubbish, I'll write about dragons. But actually, she was obviously right.

Speaker 12 If it's something like Genghis Karl's wife is kidnapped and he goes after them and he murders the people who kidnapped, you need to believe that that is... actually possible.

Speaker 12 Historical fiction is hugely useful in this way because the things we know really happened provide their own motive. You can say, well, that did happen, therefore it could happen.

Speaker 12 And it gives me, it's a sort of virtue of a circle in that sense. When you get someone like Agrippina working with Claudius, and he does things that are beyond belief.

Speaker 12 He allows her to adopt the title of empress, for example, which is impressive, but not as impressive as allowing her to call herself Augusta, which is a phenomenally high-level, high-status title.

Speaker 1 That's following in the footsteps of people like Livia, you know, decades before.

Speaker 12 Exactly. And it establishes her as a major force in the empire.
He allowed her to set up an awning in the Senate house on one of the side doors so that there was cloth.

Speaker 12 And that meant that she could be in there listening to any debate, but it also meant that they didn't know when she was in there and when she wasn't.

Speaker 12 So it meant she could overhear everything that went on in the most private sanctum of government in the whole empire. And that gave her an extraordinary power.

Speaker 12 Then you get this moment that is beyond belief. He had a son, Britannicus, named for the conquest of Britain.
And he accepts reasoning by Agrippina that Lucius, her son, should be the official heir.

Speaker 12 And the moment he does that, poor Britannicus, his days are numbered. This was a man, remember, who was quivering behind a curtain while he heard Caligula being murdered.

Speaker 12 So why did he, a man who had grown up with all the same violence and understanding and witnessing it that Agrippina had, but he seemed completely oblivious to the danger he had just put himself in and his son Britannicus in, and that if it wasn't true, it would completely defy belief.

Speaker 1 Do you think from the beginning, it's one of those kind of big questions, that Agrippina, when she is getting closer to the Emperor Claudius, you know, she's won against Messalina, and Messalina's story is one for its own podcast episode in its own right.

Speaker 1 Do you think she has this idea from the start? to secure her own position is to, as will ultimately happen, to move son, Lucius, who will be Nero, to become the heir of Claudius.

Speaker 1 Do you think she has that ambition from the off?

Speaker 12 My answer is yes.

Speaker 12 And I think that because of the fact that we know, what we know about her history shows that if you ever needed someone to learn the lessons of how power works, this is a woman who learned those lessons.

Speaker 12 And she understood that, first of all, it's a lot easier to push down than it is to push up. It is easier to be in a position of power.
It is less stressful. It is more enjoyable.

Speaker 12 Life is, you know, it is better if you are the one on top. But also, you are the one who can choose to exile her mother or exile herself.
You are the one who can choose to bring you back.

Speaker 12 And that is, her understanding of that is, I think, perfect. And therefore, it is her only possible solution is to get as much power as possible.
And that means, yes.

Speaker 12 You know, they needed a male leader that is sort of understood in those old terribly sexist days of ancient Rome.

Speaker 12 She understood that, but she clearly intended to rule through her son with all of the the titles that she had and the way she appears on coins where she slowly becomes more and more prominent on those coins and the various titles and so on.

Speaker 12 The household that she runs, the way she interferes with lawmaking, the way she manipulates Claudius. This is a woman who wanted power.
Nero was a pawn in this and he was 16 years old.

Speaker 12 It is worth any mother of a 16-year-old boy.

Speaker 12 will know that you are at that crux period where he's both a little sweetie on any given day and then he can be an absolute monster on the same afternoon and reduce you to tears and my goodness can you imagine if you gave that boy ultimate power over life and death how badly that was going to go for agripina i mean like when i was 16 from the age of 16 to 30 which is his reign there were the normal checks and balances getting turned down by a girl is an obvious one getting turned down by a job I had one of the worst job interviews I've ever had.

Speaker 12 And at the end of it, he said, that was one of the worst job interviews I have ever witnessed. Would you like me to tell you what you did wrong? And I said, well, yes, please.

Speaker 12 And then he was kind enough to do that. And I got the next job interview.
These are the experiences of a normal life, the checks and balances, the smack around the face, being punched in the face.

Speaker 12 I mean, you know, this sort of thing, that all happened between 16 and 30. I won't mention his name.

Speaker 1 Life lessons.

Speaker 12 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 12 But Nero had none of these because at the end of the day, he was both more protected than any 16-year-old has any right to be with soldiers willing to step in and say, no, you won't be doing that.

Speaker 12 Also for the people who might have threatened him. But also he had access to wealth, power, and an entire empire willing to do his bidding.
And that is corrupting. Of course it is.

Speaker 12 It should be no surprise to us at all, but that it doesn't mean, again, I go back to my defense of him.

Speaker 12 I think that that is seeing a very young man who could have walked a better path being corrupted is a tragedy rather than... another monster like Tiberius.

Speaker 1 So Gon, if we go a few years before Nero becomes the new emperor, let's say when he's around 13 years old, so 50 AD, which I believe that's the setting of this new book or the beginning of it.

Speaker 1 At that time, Nero is a young teenager. Yes, Oke's had this very difficult, albeit kind of protected upbringing, I guess you could say, right at the center of the imperial family.

Speaker 1 But do we know much about the education? If Agrippina has these big plans for Nero, Does she also ensure that Nero receives the best possible education because of that?

Speaker 12 She went to great lengths to to give him the correct sort of education. I mean, the funny thing is it did get away from her a bit because he ended up as, I think, what's the word? A Philohellene?

Speaker 12 A lover. A Philhellene, or something.
Yeah, a lover. Philohellene.
A lover of Greek culture, for example, the plays and the poetry and so on.

Speaker 12 Much more than really, they were completely comfortable with. You know, the Romans had an idea of the Greeks as slightly a feat.
They were very impressed by them.

Speaker 12 They certainly pinched all of their gods and architecture. And an awful lot of their plays were performed in Rome.

Speaker 12 But on the whole, they saw saw themselves as a sort of more stoic manlier version of the ancient world than the Greeks poncing about.

Speaker 12 They didn't manage to keep that under control with Nero because he ended up an extraordinary lover of Greece and that will no doubt be down to his tutors. There were a couple of Greeks chosen.

Speaker 12 Seneca was the main sort of architect of his education. He was the one put in charge and then he picked others.
There was a librarian from Alexandria, I seem to remember, who was

Speaker 12 and then to some extent know not so much the details of what was taught, but from his later life, we know what he loved. And therefore, that has to, this is where the interests started.

Speaker 12 And he was given Seneca for the sort of classical education part and Burrus, who was the head of the Praetorian Guard at the time, for moral education, physical education, you know, getting the kid fit.

Speaker 12 And the two of them together ran a sort of school. for Nero and one or two of his close friends, Otho, was there.
I can't remember the other one.

Speaker 12 Oh, there was a third one who Seneca used to write letters worrying about him. So this is, you know, we know a fair bit about what went on and the sort of things that were taught.

Speaker 12 And it's partly because we know they were taught rhetoric, for example, because every young Roman of a certain social class was taught how to speak in public because it was considered absolutely vital to be able to make an argument and to know their classics, to know their Horace and all the rest of it, and their Homer.

Speaker 1 to Greek. And to Latin ethics, yes.

Speaker 12 Yes, well, exactly. I mean, this is part of the education.
As I say, they went a bit far with Nero because he ended up loving acting probably more than anything else.

Speaker 12 I mean, well, actually, to the exclusion of proper ruling. I mean, he was, at the end of the day, a bad ruler, not because he was particularly monstrous, but because he was never interested.

Speaker 12 He never even wanted to be in Rome. I mean, he spent more years out of Rome in Greece than just about anybody.

Speaker 12 And he would take, I mean, he won literally thousands of prizes in Greece for competitions for poetry, music. He was very good, as far as we can tell, a liar player.

Speaker 12 I mean, other liar players laid their liars at his feet, including his own tutor, his liar tutor, I think was called Turpinus. And they did that to show that he was the master.
And they were no fools.

Speaker 12 You know, this was the most powerful young man of the age. They were flattering him beyond belief.
But that's what he loved to do. And he went...

Speaker 12 as far as employing large numbers of people to come and be his supporters in the theatre and they developed different types of clapping.

Speaker 12 I mean famously they tried the hollow-handed clap, which I won't demonstrate as I'm right next to a microphone, and then the flat-handed clap, a different sound, and also the third one was a buzzing of bees.

Speaker 12 It is always interesting to me when you hear audiences clapping that if the buzzing of bees had taken off, we might be doing that to this day.

Speaker 12 But, you know, the clapping was what, and then, you know, because he was a...

Speaker 12 He was already a spoiled young man, he would look out for anyone not clapping with sufficient enthusiasm or anyone falling asleep.

Speaker 12 Vespasian, the later emperor, was one of those who, I think he drifted off or he yawned or he did something along those lines. Good idea.

Speaker 12 In a public performance and got really got strips torn off him. I think he was sent to Judea as a punishment.

Speaker 12 You know, that's the reason he was out there dealing with revolution out there is because he'd fallen asleep during one of Nero's recitals. But, I mean, the results for the Greeks, it was fantastic.

Speaker 12 Nero started the

Speaker 12 canal between the Isthmus. Iths or something horrible.

Speaker 12 Yes, Corinth area.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 12 Yes, that bit, you know, between mainland Greece and the the peloponnese and he i mean it's a lot of people have started it before and failed and he did it with a golden shovel and it it also it also failed because a philosopher at the time said he will never pass through it and he was very annoyed about this but in fact he didn't he did die before it so yet again it exists today the corinth canal or whatever it's called but he was not the one uh to do it But the result of all of his Greek adventures, and he was there for years and attended the Olympics and race chariots and everything else.

Speaker 12 And yes, he fell off the chariot and had to finish the race on foot. But I believe that counted.
They still gave him the prize. And he rewarded them with obscene amounts of money.

Speaker 12 And the result was eventually, just before he left, he said that he would excuse them from all future tax payments to Rome, all of Greece.

Speaker 12 And he said, other men have freed cities, I have freed a nation. And that is, and it didn't last, unfortunately, because he was, I think he died a few years after that.
It was about 60,

Speaker 12 63, 64, something like that AD. And he died about 67.

Speaker 12 Yeah. So

Speaker 12 it was great for them for a short while. He excused all of Greece from paying taxes.
So he had some good motives.

Speaker 1 You can imagine what Seneca would have been thinking at that time in his grave. Or I don't know if he dies just after that or just before.

Speaker 12 I think it was before, yeah.

Speaker 1 Just before. I mean, forgive my complete ignorance around this.
So Seneca, I know he's a philosopher, and you mentioned his letters there.

Speaker 1 Do we know much else about his character and what he would have relayed to the young Nero?

Speaker 12 We know, we know, because his letters exist. And again, these are extraordinarily intimate documents because Seneca was discussing various topics topics of the day.

Speaker 12 And as I say, he worried about one of Nero's friends and whether he was growing up properly. And we know he was asthmatic.
So as I'm asthmatic myself, I found him a character I cared about, I suppose.

Speaker 12 But he would, for example, discuss slavery, which I found interesting enough. In fact, it did inspire me to write a second book on.

Speaker 12 It's set roughly in the same period, but it deals with a freed slave. Because Seneca's point was that if you can be freed from slavery, you can buy yourself out.

Speaker 12 If you can be put back into slavery for debt or a particular crime, then they are not a sub-class. They are us, and therefore they should be treated with a certain respect.

Speaker 12 For 2,000 years ago, that's an extraordinarily advanced comment on this social class of slaves in Rome.

Speaker 12 And I found him, yeah, as a result, an absolutely sort of fascinating man, way ahead, a polymath way ahead of his time.

Speaker 12 He also had an affair with, I think, one of Agrippina's sisters, and that's why he was banished for a short time.

Speaker 12 You know, I'm not saying he wasn't red-blooded and all the rest of it, but he was an extraordinary, yeah an extraordinary mind to be put in charge of someone like Nero and I guess over time you have to say well he failed though didn't he because you know Nero didn't turn out to be the great hope of of the new century and all the rest of it but he did his very best and as I say I think power corrupts to a degree that not even a man like Seneca could stop But it brings us back to the point you were mentioning earlier, like with Caligula, the early stories of Caligula, where actually there's the good side of it more, or the more kind of the looking, trying to find the silver lining.

Speaker 1 It always feels with Seneca being one of the tutors and one of the biggest name tutors of Nero.

Speaker 1 Into the early years of Nero's reign, his name is almost something that becomes associated with Nero by people trying to say, well, actually, there were these, you know, these early signs of potential promise on this figure before it all goes to pot.

Speaker 12 Absolutely. I mean, that is what makes it a tragedy.
As I say, if they'd started, if Nero and Caligula had started bad and ended up bad, there'd be no story for me to tell. It would be uninteresting.

Speaker 12 Not a topic I would have picked to tell. And for years, I avoided Caligula, actually, in any sort of sense, because I thought it would be that.
And that's what I think we all understand.

Speaker 12 Who's the greatest monster of ancient Rome? Oh, that's easier. That's Caligula.
Therefore, there's no real story to tell. Because human beings need, it's a story arc.

Speaker 12 And whether it ends in redemption or tragedy, you need change over time to be picked as an interesting story to tell.

Speaker 12 Luckily, and I've said this many times in public speeches, that for me, history is a collection of the stories that survive.

Speaker 12 And they are often the stories that teach us something that have change inherent within them and it's how human beings pass on our values it's how we like to do it so for me the stories of uh caligula and nero are interesting because they had that potential and it was squandered keeping on as tutors if we go over to burrus quickly one of the the heads of the praetorian guard of course seems to also have an influence on the teenage Nero before he becomes emperor.

Speaker 1 I mean, how do you portray Nero's relationship with Burrus in the book? What did you think about Burrus from the sources sources that survive and how he plays into this story?

Speaker 12 I mean,

Speaker 12 to some extent, and I'm not being funny now, you know, this is going to sound sort of silly or trivial, but whenever you portray a relationship of any kind in a book, it is, of course, influenced by my understanding of the world.

Speaker 12 So if I've ever had male mentors, which I have, my father would be an obvious one, then I know what was important to me and I know, you know, his approval of me and how it was important, how I was rude to him and so on and so on.

Speaker 12 And like it or not, when you're dealing with history,

Speaker 12 you have the bare bones of it laid out and you

Speaker 12 might say that Seneca was banished and came back or that Burris was with him for these years and so on and

Speaker 12 how Burris died and so on. But you are going to have to

Speaker 12 create scenes with conversations that are written nowhere. And it's going to have to be a, say in this case, a mentor of an older male with a younger male who has power.
And that's always dangerous.

Speaker 12 There's any number of variations through history where, you know,

Speaker 12 the mentor has not been able to rein in the young man because everyone knows that young man effectively is the final arbiter and has ultimate power. So the mentor fails.

Speaker 12 But it's an interesting relationship because it could go either way.

Speaker 12 So for me, when I'm reading about Burris and I'm reading about his, you know, the relationship with Agrippina and how she saw him and how he presumably took took the role seriously and wanted Nero to be a noble, decent young man,

Speaker 12 which makes Burris a patriot, by the way, because therefore he cared about Rome.

Speaker 12 You know, I can draw conclusions from one aspect and the fact that Burris took up the role in the first place makes him someone who cared about the future of Rome.

Speaker 12 And that instantly starts to inform the way I create these scenes, because I have, therefore, not a toxic relationship.

Speaker 12 I have a supportive relationship of an older man who, to be head head of the Praetorians, a man, you know, given double pay for being an elite soldier.

Speaker 12 I mean, it's equivalent of head of the SAS, effectively.

Speaker 12 Some of the legions at the time would hate me to say that, but nonetheless, they thought the Praetorians were sort of, you know, ridiculously pompous forces.

Speaker 12 But nonetheless, they were meant to be elite forces, and he was the number one.

Speaker 12 So think of him as a special forces guy who was given this task of raising an important young man in the absence of normal father figures is, yeah, the relationship is related by me in those terms.

Speaker 12 And then it has to be, I think, internally consistent. And if that sounds ridiculously silly and overwrought and too detailed, that's how I think when I'm creating these characters.
It has to work.

Speaker 12 It has to be internally consistent. It has to be characters that you and I will recognize because

Speaker 12 they're as intelligent as us, they just happened to be 2,000 years ago, but they cared about very often the same things.

Speaker 3 Dashing through the store, Dave's looking for a gift.

Speaker 2 One you can't ignore, but not the socks he picks.

Speaker 3 I know, I'm putting them back.

Speaker 4 Hey, Dave, here's a tip. Put scratchers on your list.

Speaker 5 Oh, scratchers, good idea.

Speaker 6 It's an easy shopping trip.

Speaker 3 We're glad we could assist.

Speaker 7 Thanks, random singing people.

Speaker 8 So be like Dave this holiday and give the gift of play.

Speaker 9 Scratchers from the California lottery. A little play can make your day.

Speaker 10 Please play responsibly. Must be 18 years or older to purchase play or claim.

Speaker 11 If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key and that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Granger.

Speaker 11 Granger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers.

Speaker 11 Plus, you can rely on Granger for easy reordering so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800-GRANGER, clickgranger.com, or just stop by.
Granger for the ones who get it done.

Speaker 1 And I guess another relationship that you'd have to tackle, and I know that you must tackle, is, of course, the one between the young, the teenage Nero and Britannicus before what you've already mentioned, Agrippina convinces Claudius to name her son, Lucius, who will be Nero as heir rather than Britannicus.

Speaker 1 But for those years previously, you know, as these two young boys are growing up in the palace, I mean, do we actually have any information from the sources

Speaker 1 about their relationship?

Speaker 12 Very little. It's one of the things

Speaker 12 I did have to invent an entire scene for this in the book, because you had a situation where...

Speaker 12 Claudius has a son and heir, Britannicus, and Agrippina is trying to persuade him to make Lucius her son the heir. And he does so.
And we've we've talked about how extraordinary that moment is.

Speaker 12 But then all the history records is that Claudius was thinking about undoing that and making Britannicus the heir as well. Now, we don't know why.
So for that to happen, I had to manufacture a scene.

Speaker 12 And I did it with

Speaker 12 Nero injuring Britannicus, causing him to be injured on a racetrack. And because I needed Claudius to lose patience with Nero and with Agrippina's protection of him.

Speaker 12 And I needed him to say, you know what, I'm not going to make him my heir anymore. I'm going to make Britannicus my heir because that's the night then where Claudius is, well, is killed.

Speaker 12 And that's, and Nero becomes emperor. And I needed a sort of climactic scene to move those relationships on because the information isn't there.
It's just one of the gaps I have to fill.

Speaker 12 There are always gaps and gaps to fill.

Speaker 12 I mean, I wrote a scene.

Speaker 12 You know, every, well, we all know that Claudius visited Britain in the invasion of Britain.

Speaker 12 He didn't go across with the first troops, but he went across, I think, a few weeks later, and he was there for about about two weeks.

Speaker 1 With his elephants, yep, yep.

Speaker 12 Exactly, with the four wonderful elephants. So, and the point is he was there, and there's no record of everyone else who was there with him.

Speaker 12 So, I mean, we know the names of the legions that were there, but not, you know, the hangers-on and all the rest of it, or how many of his praetorians he took, or whether there are any members of the court whatsoever.

Speaker 12 So, I thought, well, okay, I need to carry on conversations with Agrippina and the boy Nero here. And if she goes, then he would go.
So I'm going to put them in.

Speaker 12 And that's, for me, perfectly acceptable because it doesn't change history.

Speaker 12 It's the kind of thing that might have happened but wouldn't have been recorded and it allows me to move the plot on to the point where he asks her to marry him and that that's a key sort of plot point because you have to tell it in in some way i mean this is you know this is the the joy of historical fiction but it's also occasionally the the sort of thing that gets people writing emails to me and is chariot racing is because of course that becomes big in the story of Nero, especially when he goes to Greece all those years later.

Speaker 1 But do we think chariot racing is a big part of Nero's story, even in these early years? I read somewhere that actually his dad, Lucius Ahinobarbas, was a chariot racer.

Speaker 12 Yes, I mean, I remember hearing that as well. And obviously, it's a big part of Nero's life.
And he raced various ones from the sort of four-horse chariots to the extraordinary 10-horse chariot.

Speaker 12 But yes, in terms of the amount of weight 10 horses would feel, the answer is, well, none at all, really. So it's the formula one of ancient Rome.
Nothing would have moved faster than that.

Speaker 12 And genuinely, to race... 10 horses on a tiny lightweight chariot was to put your life at risk, which is important because it's, all right, it's a playboy sort of activity.

Speaker 12 It's like racing Ferraris, but it is still physically testing himself in a way that, frankly, playing the lute does not.

Speaker 12 It's important because, you know, he was a young man taught by Burris and he was a young man who had a physical side to him. He wasn't an, although he loved Greece, he wasn't an a feat.

Speaker 12 sort of scholar alone. He had this physical aspect to him.
And, you know, from his father, it was a huge gambling thing in Rome. They had the four teams, the greens and the whites and so on.

Speaker 12 And it was, you know, the Circus Maximus was filled to capacity on certain days. And it's a huge part of Roman life.
And he would have been part of that.

Speaker 12 So it explains perhaps one of the reasons why he was so popular, why he was missed after his death, because he wasn't just a distant scholar like Claudius would have been.

Speaker 12 He was a man who actually, you know, put himself at risk for fun. That's worth noticing.

Speaker 1 I guess you could also imagine, though, with perhaps the more low-see kind of conservative senators, I know they don't have as much power as they used to.

Speaker 1 Wasn't there this idea that sometimes the competers, the sportsmen, the celebrity sportsmen of the time, although they had a lot of following, like the gladiators, they were still seen as actually being beneath them in a sort of way.

Speaker 12 See, that's one of the things I remember from Burris, that this was their big problem with Nero, because everything he liked to do was considered low class.

Speaker 12 And that doesn't come through in the modern world.

Speaker 12 particularly chariot racing is one of them it was not considered it was all very well to bet on it that's fine and to own teams that's perfectly fine.

Speaker 12 But not to race the blooming horses yourself, that's considered to be sort of a common man's pursuit and beneath, certainly beneath the airs and graces of an emperor.

Speaker 12 But oddly, the truth is, I say oddly, but I suppose we're not too surprised to hear acting is also considered a low pursuit. But also music, poetry, everything he loved to do was considered.

Speaker 12 beneath him.

Speaker 12 And that meant that, you know, Burris was constantly struggling with the fact that everything Nero wanted to do and had the power to do and the influence and the people who would support him to do were not what he should be doing if he was to be a proper, decent, restrained, stoic Roman leader.

Speaker 12 So that was part of their sort of, you know, struggle between the two of them. So yeah, there's a lot of low status stuff that Nero loved.

Speaker 1 In regards to marriage, when the young teenage Nero, you mentioned earlier in the chat how his mother is married when she's just 13 years old. Is it a similar age that Nero is first married?

Speaker 12 Well, the first marriage is to his technically his sister, Octavia, who was not a blood relative. Well, she was, but, you know, she wasn't his actual sister.

Speaker 12 It wasn't, as I said, you don't marry brother and sister. And that was obviously a political thing arranged by Agrippina.

Speaker 12 She managed to break off the engagement with another Solanus son and damaging that family and setting off a sort of tricky chain of events. She had to then keep doing damage limitation for some time.

Speaker 12 But Nero didn't want to be married to Octavia, didn't love her didn't want to be around her and then he does act in a in a pretty awful cowardly way I mean it is one of the least likable aspects of his character that he wouldn't just do something he would say if he wanted someone killed for example he would banish them first always banish them first and then out of sight he would wait for a period of time and he would send someone to finish them off and you know it's it's cowardly at the end of the day it's not the way a leader is meant to be and it allows him a little bit of deniability.

Speaker 12 So I mean, he just did this over and over. I mean, Seneca was killed at a distance.
Octavia was killed at a distance. It's very rare, actually, with Britannicus that Britannicus died in front of Nero.

Speaker 12 So it makes me wonder whether that wasn't, you know, whether that was Nero, because Britannicus suddenly choked. I mean, the story about Britannicus is that everyone knew about poisons.

Speaker 12 And he had, you know, so therefore they had tasters, but he was given food that was extremely hot. I think it was soup or something.
And then the poison was in the cold water.

Speaker 1 That was it, yes.

Speaker 12 but whether that was nero or not it would that if that was nero it'd be a little bit surprising because usually he did things at one remove he would move you away first and he did that with octavia he sent her into uh exile and then had somebody to go and uh you know and finish her off and i think if i remember rightly her head was delivered back to nero it's pretty pretty horrific especially as he's still a teenager at this point or yeah well i can't continue

Speaker 12 exactly when that was but uh yes i mean it would be in the 50s he would be in the 50s

Speaker 12 i mean he wanted to move on he wanted at that point i think he wanted uh Otho's wife, Poppea.

Speaker 12 He rather fancied her.

Speaker 1 Well, shall we keep on this idea then of poisonings and get to when Nero actually does become the emperor?

Speaker 1 Because what are the stories, these extraordinary stories behind the death of Emperor Claudius?

Speaker 12 Well, again, you don't know how completely true some of this is, but there was a doctor called La Custa, a woman, a Gaulish woman, if I remember rightly.

Speaker 12 The story is that, if I've got the details right, that Claudius was poisoned. It was something in his food.
And as I said

Speaker 12 just before the interview started, people die in Italy every year from eating the wrong mushrooms. So there are some very powerful mushrooms out there.

Speaker 12 And we've had Augustus die with his favorite mushrooms. It's a fairly common way of dispatching your enemy.
But they have a good knowledge of poisons. You know, they would have been available to them.

Speaker 12 But the idea was that he was poisoned in his food and then began to sick it up. And La Custa, his doctor, was summoned.
And she gave him a feather to put down his throat to make him vomit.

Speaker 12 But there was more poison on the feather. So that as she poked it down his throat, you know, he was dosed higher and higher.
And he had, therefore, I mean, he had no chance whatsoever.

Speaker 12 Burrus wasn't there, by the way, because he came later. This was very much Agrippina acting to secure her son.

Speaker 12 And that was because Claudius, you know, was saying, stuff it, I'm going to make Britannicus my heir. So he made himself a threat to Agrippina and a threat to Lucius in that moment.

Speaker 12 And therefore, he had to go.

Speaker 1 But in that context, the fact that Claudius was dabbling, according to the sources of renaming Britannicus, his actual son as his heir, is that why you think that there is the most plausibility of all like kind of the stories of doing away with people by Agrippina around this time, that her involvement in the death of Claudius could well have a strong historical reality?

Speaker 12 It's the one I believe more than any other.

Speaker 12 I mean, even Tiberius even was an old man, and old men die, especially in Rome when a single tooth abscess can carry you away so but this is the one claudius was not particularly old he was in relatively good physical health he was uh uh you know uh hadn't suffered in any way that we've had revealed to us and yet he's suddenly dead at the most extraordinarily useful moment where nero is just 16 and can be announced that day as rome wakes up at dawn the following morning as the new emperor and you know if i remember rightly they didn't they get the praetorians in as well to surround the uh or out on the streets because they didn't want any riots or any unrest or anyone saying, you know, the emperor's been murdered or anything like that.

Speaker 12 They got the clamp on to Rome very early on. And that suggests a fair element of planning.
And the fact that they were so successful, yes, it's who benefits? Is it cui bono?

Speaker 12 You always look for the person who benefits the most, and that was clearly Agrippina and Nero.

Speaker 1 And Nero swiftly becomes the new emperor.

Speaker 1 Is it quite a straightforward succession? There's no Britannicus shouting from the rooftop saying, oh, you should be the next emperor instead of.

Speaker 12 No, Britannica. This is the tragedy of Britannicus.
he doesn't seem to have been a threat at all.

Speaker 12 He may have been, he may have become a threat because so many, we've had so many families split down two lines. And again, you go back to the Persian kings, was it Cyrus? I forget the other one.

Speaker 12 You know, brothers killing brothers.

Speaker 12 Actually,

Speaker 12 it's the historical context that is important because it's like Richard III and the princes.

Speaker 12 Once you have seen, let's say, a dozen of these stories, you realize it is so completely ordinary to do away with the people who might rise up and kill you that you need to almost establish a new moral sort of structure.

Speaker 12 So, okay, the son of Julius Caesar with Cleopatra, he was killed by, was it Octavian? He was about 17 years old. And

Speaker 12 he was called Ptolemy Caesarean. So he had Caesar and he had Ptolemy in his name.
He could have grown to rule an empire that included Rome and Egypt and all the rest of it, but they clobbered him.

Speaker 12 Was it Augustus who got it? Yes, it was Octavian, Augustus, you got him. And that's the point.
This was ordinary behavior.

Speaker 12 You do not allow someone called Ptolemy Caesarean, the incredibly dangerously named Ptolemy Caesarean, to survive. And that goes for all of Agrippina's brothers as well.

Speaker 12 They all had, if you look at their names, it's Caesar and Augustus.

Speaker 12 And they've all got names that, frankly, is shouting from the rooftops, this person is a potential danger to anyone else who might want to rule in Rome.

Speaker 12 So I think, yes, it is ordinary behavior to do it. And Nero, in fact, if Britannicus had said anything, he would have been making himself extremely vulnerable.

Speaker 12 So I think at the very beginning, anyway, he's completely quiet. And then he doesn't live too long, but we don't know.
We don't know who is responsible for Britannicus killed.

Speaker 12 I think I won't say how I went for it in the book, but it was, yeah, there are a few possible choices.

Speaker 1 I don't want to give too much away from your book, of course, and we won't go any further in the story.

Speaker 1 But it's interesting when Nero becomes emperor and Britannicus dies soon after, as you've already highlighted earlier, as it's already shown, even in the 40s, Nero is the clearest surviving male link to Augustus and thus Julius Caesar before him.

Speaker 1 So he is the one, you know, if you're looking at legitimacy in this still, it feels a bit experimental kind of imperial, new imperial Roman world.

Speaker 12 He's the one. Experimental because, I mean, Julius Caesar never called himself an emperor.
He couldn't have done. Neither did Augustus.
He called himself, was it Princeps or, you know, the first

Speaker 1 among equals.

Speaker 12 Yeah, first among equals. And I think Tiberius was the first who actually called himself an emperor.
So this is a very new institution in the the world, and it isn't bedded in.

Speaker 12 And to some extent, the bloodline is accepted that there can be adoptions because, I mean, Tiberius was Augustus' adopted son rather than his direct bloodline. But the bloodline is still important.

Speaker 12 And that's the extraordinary thing that happens after Nero and why I'm always interested in the historical reliability of sources.

Speaker 12 Because once he's gone, the first person was Galber, the second person was Otto, the third person was Vitellius. None of those have any real right to rule in Rome.

Speaker 12 So they have a very strong reason to rewrite the history, much as the Tudors rewrote Richard III and made him into more of a monster than he was.

Speaker 12 And then you get Vespasian and the Flavians, who actually turned out to be a pretty good emperor. And, you know, things are reset.

Speaker 12 But even he, he was the, you know, the sponsor of Josephus or Josephus. And therefore, you still have the implication that history is rewritten.

Speaker 12 In fact, Claudius was told by one of his wives, and it wasn't Agrippina, I'm telling you, it was at Messalina, that he shouldn't go back and interfere with the Roman archives because there were too many hands on it already.

Speaker 12 And it's just a little reminder that the things that survive 2,000 years to us are to some extent the things they want us to know, not the things that actually went on.

Speaker 12 And you are always slightly hamstrung by this difficulty that history has to be seen through filters.

Speaker 1 A nice way to end this one, Con, is, and I think it links into what you mentioned to me before we started recording, which is some extraordinary coinage from this time.

Speaker 1 I mean, what, right at the beginning of Nero's reign, given how important and integral Agrippina has been to his rise, does it feel like right at the beginning, you've got Seneca, you've got Burris, and Nero's got his mother right there.

Speaker 1 Is it a mother-son team at that time? Are they very much united? And is that shown in how they promote themselves?

Speaker 12 It is. I mean, I don't think it's really a world we can imagine.
The fact that people didn't know what the emperor looked like, except through coins.

Speaker 12 Obviously, there were no images or very few paintings that anyone else would ever see.

Speaker 12 So you've got a sort of world where where these people up on the Palatine Hill were distant and almost, you know, divine figures. So the best way to put that image out there was through coins.

Speaker 12 It's the one place where you could sit and stare at someone's face in profile. And Agrippina actually turns up on an early coin with two of her sisters, I think during the reign of Caligula.

Speaker 12 Yes, Caligula.

Speaker 12 But she's a sort of, they're all little spindly figures. I mean, they do the best they can, but there's no sense of the face.
And then she turns up.

Speaker 12 It was behind Claudius. So she was on, it was one of the first coins that showed two people.
So, you know, their actual faces. So Claudius was there, and then she was behind him, almost like a shadow.

Speaker 12 I mean, you know, predicting the future in that way. And then when Nero becomes emperor, she is facing him as an equal, which is extraordinary.

Speaker 12 And I seem to remember that coin also had Augusta on it, you know, as proof of her extraordinary status in the empire. And that, of course, was the thing that was...
too much.

Speaker 12 You know, she pushed too much. She thought of herself as she clearly thought of herself as the equal.
The visual representation, I think, proves that.

Speaker 1 and that was too much for her son who was actually in name and reality the emperor it's fascinating also i didn't realize that agrippina is actually on three generations of coinage of three different emperors well there you go con we'll leave it there because that is also a lovely cliffhanger to kind of tee up what will happen over the next few years with nero and his mother agrippina which forms a big part of your new book tell us a little bit about tyrant I've had people say to me on the first book, you've called it Nero, but he's hardly in it, which is true to a degree.

Speaker 12 but to understand nero you had to understand his mother so i sort of wrote the prequel first because as we've gone through in this i mean the the background with caligula and all the rest of it is vital to understanding the whole family is vital to understanding the rule of nero but this is his actual story as he comes into being emperor and comes into uh you know the main part of his life and then the third one which is called inferno so you can probably guess um there's certain elements of truth in that.

Speaker 1 Oh, yes,

Speaker 12 there could be some fire in there.

Speaker 12 And that was one of the most joyous books i you know was able to write this is honestly the best historical material i've ever come across in terms of sheer joy for me and for example i mean i don't know we haven't got a lot of time but i mean i'll just say i i got to deal with saint peter in one and knowing that he was executed in rome made me really think about the process of how people were accused of being christian and how they were then taken out and executed and so on and i suddenly realized that the most famous part of peter's story is the fact that he denied Christ three times.

Speaker 12 And he was executed for being a Christian, which means that they asked him, are you a Christian?

Speaker 12 And in an extraordinary redemptive moment, he must have said yes because they executed him. And therefore, we have a moment that is not canon, is not part of Christian

Speaker 12 beliefs across the world. But my goodness, it must have happened.
And that is the perfect joy of historical fiction, that sometimes you can see something that isn't common knowledge, but is true.

Speaker 1 Con, this has been such a fantastic chat. Tyrant is out now, I believe.
It is, yes. Brilliant, fantastic.

Speaker 1 And I look forward to the next one in the to Inferno coming out, I'm sure, in a year or two's time. Con, just go to me say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.

Speaker 12 My pleasure. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1 Well, there you go. There was Con Iggledon talking through the rise of Nero.

Speaker 1 It was such a pleasure to interview him in person and to hear all about his upcoming historical fiction series all about the rise and reign of Nero. I hope you enjoyed the episode.

Speaker 1 Please follow the ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.

Speaker 1 If you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating as well, well we'd really appreciate that.

Speaker 1 Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.

Speaker 1 Now that's enough from me, and I will see you in the next episode.

Speaker 3 Dashing through the store, Dave's looking for a gift.

Speaker 2 One you can't ignore, but not the socks he picks.

Speaker 3 I know, I'm putting them back.

Speaker 4 Hey, Dave, here's a tip: put scratchers on your list.

Speaker 5 Oh, scratchers, good idea.

Speaker 6 It's an easy shopping trip.

Speaker 3 We're glad we could assist.

Speaker 7 Thanks, random singing people.

Speaker 8 So be like Dave this holiday and give the gift of play.

Speaker 9 Scratchers from the California lottery. A little play can make your day.

Speaker 10 Please play responsibly. Must be 18 years or older to purchase play or claim.

Speaker 1 This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash?

Speaker 1 Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at progressive.com.
Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.

Speaker 1 Potential savings will vary, not available in all states.