The Iliad

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Speaker 11 It's one of the greatest epics in history. A 24-book story regarded as one of the most influential pieces of literature ever written.

Speaker 22 The Iliad.

Speaker 11 Centered around just before the end of the fabled the legendary Trojan War, the Iliad covers the stories of famous heroes of mythology like Achilles, greatest of the Greek warriors, Agamemnon, the king of Mycenae and leader of the Greeks, but also the rival of Achilles.

Speaker 11 Trojans like Hector, Prince of Troy, Priam the king, Hecuba the queen, not to mention Paris, another prince whose golden apple judgment sparked the Trojan War.

Speaker 11 And his lover, Queen Helen, Helen of Sparta or Helen of Troy, the face that launched a thousand ships. Beautifully written, the Iliad features several famous episodes from the Trojan War.

Speaker 11 How Achilles refused to fight for the Greeks and sulked in his tent after Agamemnon took his slave girl Briseus for his own, before the death of Achilles' greatest friend Patroclus sends Achilles back into battle, berserk.

Speaker 11 Something that climaxes with his great duel against Hector outside the walls of Troy.

Speaker 11 The Iliad is a complex tale of wrath and resistance, of friendship and honor, of fate and prophecy, of gods and heroes. And today on the ancients, we're going to explore it.

Speaker 11 I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Now the Iliad is a massive topic for us to cover in one episode.

Speaker 11 We're going to tackle it as best we can and we wouldn't have time to explore it book by book from book 1 to 24. We're going to do it thematically.

Speaker 11 We're going to explore everything varying from the origins of the Iliad some 3,000 years ago to the main characters of the epic and how complex their stories are, and much more.

Speaker 11 Now, my guest today is Professor Edith Hall from Durham University.

Speaker 11 A leading academic on ancient Greek literature and philosophy, including the Iliad, Edith has a new book coming out about the Iliad and how apocalyptic some of its language is.

Speaker 11 I really do hope you enjoy.

Speaker 11 Edith, it is great to have you back on the podcast.

Speaker 23 And I'm thrilled to be back here again.

Speaker 11 And last time we did the massive topic of Atlantis, we've got you on for another big one today. The story of the Iliad.
First of all, Edith, what exactly is the Iliad?

Speaker 22 The Iliad is one of the oldest Greek epics. It is probably the oldest, depending on how old Hesiods are.
It's older than the Odyssey slightly.

Speaker 22 It was probably put together in the form we've got it in the middle of the 8th century BCE,

Speaker 22 but it had been in development since at least the 14th century. And it is over 16,000 lines long and they're long lines.

Speaker 22 They're a particular meter called the ductylic hexameter, which has six beats and is quite a long line. It's much longer than say the iambic pentameter we're used to in Shakespeare.

Speaker 22 And it tells the story of of a 40-day period towards the end of the 10-year Trojan War.

Speaker 11 16,000 lines

Speaker 11 of epic poetry and has its origins more than 3,000 years ago. It is such an extraordinary epic poem to have survived so long and still be so important for the mindset of so many people today.

Speaker 22 It's quite remarkable. It just sort of cultural longevity.

Speaker 22 I mean, one of the reasons for that, though, was that it was, once it was actually written down, this is what happened in in the middle of the eighth century.

Speaker 22 It became the absolutely standard fare of ancient education for then more than a thousand years.

Speaker 22 So we know, for example, that young Athenian aristocratic boys were expected to know it off by heart, the whole thing, off by heart.

Speaker 22 I mean, you know, it's just incredible, but they were expected to know it off by heart if they had a good education. And it's that remained so throughout the Roman Empire, all the way through.

Speaker 22 This meant it survived in numerous manuscripts in Byzantium when it was lost to the West for about a thousand years between about 400 CE and pretty much when the Turks invaded Constantinople in the middle of the 15th century.

Speaker 22 But thank heavens, enough manuscripts before that happened, and they destroyed half the libraries, enough manuscripts had been got out to Italy.

Speaker 22 to mean that they rolled off the printing presses pretty early on in the history of printing.

Speaker 22 So by around 1550, there were hundreds of printed copies and people were very energetically beginning to translate it, not just into Latin, because then the lingua franca was Latin, but quite early into modern languages.

Speaker 22 And as soon as that happened, everybody started doing operas and paintings and plays and parodies. it became once again an absolute staple of certainly upper class education.

Speaker 22 So that's why it's as big as it is. Actually, until quite recently, it wasn't as big as the Odyssey.

Speaker 22 If you actually think quantitatively, in terms of world culture, there were far more versions of the Odyssey.

Speaker 22 The Odyssey was exported all over the planet, you know, by the Jesuits and things like that.

Speaker 22 The Iliad did not make so much of an impact, but it just had a quite astonishing revival in the 21st century.

Speaker 22 And I think it's now absolutely as familiar as the Odyssey for the first time since antiquity.

Speaker 11 Edith, you mentioned how young Athenians would have to learn the Iliad off by heart. Does that reflect how important epic poems like the Iliad were to ancient Greek culture?

Speaker 22 Yes, it's an entire encyclopedia of their civilization and values. I think they were written down because of Greek colonization.
So not many people really did know them completely off by heart.

Speaker 22 If you were going off to found, as they were in the archaic age, the 8th, 7th, 6th century, to found colonies on the far northern coast of the Black Sea or in Marseille or in Egypt, you know, all over the Mediterranean Black Sea periphery, then you needed to take your canonical poems with you.

Speaker 22 I think that that was the spur for them getting written down. So you could take your huge papyrus rolls of the Iliad, the Odyssey and Hesiod.

Speaker 22 because they told you everything that you really needed to know. They told you how to do a sacrifice.

Speaker 22 They told you how to fight the enemy. They told you how to arm yourself.

Speaker 22 They told you how to be a heroic male who was going around intrepidly bonking enemies on foreign shores on the head. They were the cultural encyclopedia.

Speaker 22 And at Athens, we know that every year at the Panathenaeus, the big all-Athenian festival in the summer from the sixth century, you know, they were recited all the way through.

Speaker 22 The Iliad was recited all the way through by teams of bards every summer. It actually takes about three days to do that.

Speaker 11 But it's so interesting, Edith, how, as you mentioned, with that kind of Greek colonization period when you get lots of ancient Greek settlers and communities emerging and trading posts emerging at their height from what is Afghanistan today all the way to eastern Spain, that the one thing in common to show that there is that kind of Greek culture there could be.

Speaker 11 that no matter where you were, someone would know the Iliad, would be able to recite it or have a copy of it.

Speaker 11 And it was almost a symbol that, yes, we've gone really far away from maybe like the heart of ancient Greece and Athens and places, but we still remember the values and these stories.

Speaker 22 You take with you this cultural heritage, and the Iliad, of course, because it's about a united effort by Greeks, even though the word Greek doesn't occur in it yet, it enumerates all these mainland Greek cities and some of the islands that sent forces to Troy.

Speaker 22 So, for an awful lot of Greeks, wherever they went in the world, they could trace their ancestry. They believed their own ancestors had been on the Greek side at Troy.

Speaker 22 So it's an extraordinarily long genealogy that you're taking with you wherever you went.

Speaker 11 Before we explore the story main characters and some really interesting themes from the Iliad, Edith, I feel we must mention the author of the Iliad, Homer, but there always seems to be a bit of debate around this character as well.

Speaker 11 Do we think that the Iliad was the work of one man called Homer?

Speaker 22 I don't. In my head, the pattern is that the story got gradually elaborated.

Speaker 22 It's in 24 books now, but it's got slightly more than that identifiable individual stories that rather than being three days recitation, you could sing of a particular battle during the war, or you could sing the funeral of Patroclus, or you could sing the row between Achilles and Agamemnon, or you could sing the moment that Achilles meets his mother, Thetis.

Speaker 22 You can cut it down into individual like lays,

Speaker 22 and I think that's how it was probably performed it got elaborated and elaborated i think we're probably talking not tens but hundreds of individual bards they call rhapsodes stitches of song who performed it all over the through the dark ages of greece and

Speaker 22 for whatever reason and as i said i think it's got a lot to do with colonization somebody put it all together in the mid-18th century. Now that might

Speaker 22 have been an individual genius because the structure is wonderful there's real artistry in how it's been all put together if you like the final stitcher whether he was called omyros or not i don't know it's a very peculiar name it means a hostage and about 10 different places in ancient greece claimed to be the homeland of homer

Speaker 22 so I don't think we've got any sense of who this individual was, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there wasn't a master hand in putting it all together because it's it's very aesthetically satisfying and so the timeline well the story the poem the epic poem that is the iliad you mentioned there so it's divided into 24 books is it are they almost like different scenes in the story it narrates a 40-day period so and it's syncopated so we're not talking a convenient day a book sort of thing Sometimes you have a sort of 10-day gap.

Speaker 22 They go out to gather wood on the mountains for nine days for the funeral at the end of Patroclus in book 23. And Priam sends his guys out to the mountains for several days.

Speaker 22 Sometimes there's a whole battle that rages across the middle of the poem, which takes up three or four books, just one battle. So it doesn't neatly fit into temporal units.
It does.

Speaker 22 neatly fit into sort of thematic and dramatically unified individual episodes.

Speaker 11 And you say that it's 40 days, so 40 days might seem like quite a long time, but in regards to the Trojan war that it's set, is this actually quite a small amount of time within the larger war?

Speaker 22 So the war is sort of 10 years, and I think we're meant to feel this is in about eighth or ninth year.

Speaker 22 Once Achilles kills Hector, which is, of course, the climax, the final showdown, like the shootout in a Clint Eastwood movie that you've been waging. That's in book 22 of 24.

Speaker 22 Just Just as in the Odyssey, when Odysseus finally kills all the suitors, it's in book 22 of 24.

Speaker 22 So you've got that sort of whole build-up that is coming.

Speaker 22 But it allows 40 days, it's an interesting unit, apart from the number 40, which often gets is important, a lot of storytelling, you know, it's like nights in the wilderness and that kind of thing.

Speaker 22 But it allows a real psychological build-up because Achilles is called the wrath of Achilles, really. The first word is wrath.
Wroth, sing me muse of Achilles, right?

Speaker 22 It's the 40 days that he was incredibly angry.

Speaker 22 He's first angry with Agamemnon, he's angry with Agamemnon for almost all of that, but then he gets even angrier with Hector because Hector's killed his best friend or lover, however we like to see it, Patroclus.

Speaker 22 So he actually transfers his anger in book 90 from Agamemnon to Hector. But once he's killed Hector, we know that his own death is not far off.

Speaker 22 That is set up for us in his conversations with his mother, the sea goddess Thetis.

Speaker 22 So it's a kind of dot, dot, dot ending. And also the very last word is the very last line is thus ended the funeral of horse taming of Hector.

Speaker 22 It's horse taming is the last word, which immediately makes you think of the wooden horse, that the Trojans will not be horse tamers for long.

Speaker 22 So it's very much makes you think of the imminent ending of the war and also the death of Achilles. I mean, that's a brilliant structure.

Speaker 22 So it's not a corny American movie where we've got to be told exactly what happened to everybody. It's left on this ambiguous but very dark funeral note.

Speaker 11 And once again, to say into the average Joe Bloggs, when you might think about the Trojan War, yes, you think about the Trojan horse, but actually...

Speaker 11 In Homer's Iliad, the Trojan horse isn't, that story isn't in there. It's in a different story, which is interesting.
No.

Speaker 11 And I would also like, you mentioned some of those interesting characters there that we're going to explore, Achilles, absolutely, Hector, Patroclus, Agamemnon.

Speaker 11 But before we get to them, Edith, as this is set for a particular 40-day period near the end of the Trojan War, are there any mentions in the Iliad kind of reminding people of what happened before then, either why they're there, why they're on the plains of Troy, or what's happened in those years previously?

Speaker 11 Is there any attempt to explain, well, what came before this in the last episode episode kind of thing?

Speaker 22 Yes, but very slight and very late. We don't mention the judgment of Paris, which is what started it all, because he so offended Hera and Athena when he chose Aphrodite.

Speaker 11 With the golden apple, yeah.

Speaker 22 Yeah, which meant that he was then allowed to run away with Helen because he chose the most beautiful woman in the world.

Speaker 22 The judgment of Paris is not mentioned until book 24, and then only very briefly, right at the end. Paris, we do have Helen in the story.
I mean, she's a very important character.

Speaker 22 And we're very aware, you know, Paris and Helen have sex in book three.

Speaker 22 So that thorn in the side of the Greeks, that their beautiful Helen is actually at it inside Troy, is there. But this poem is not very much interested in the past.

Speaker 22 For example, we don't hear about the sacrifice of a Viginia,

Speaker 22 all those preparations. We do hear about a couple of omens, but

Speaker 22 it's pretty pretty much in the now, and we don't get any real predictions of the future, except just once we're told that the plains of Troy will be completely flattened and obliterated as if nothing had ever been there, which is pretty horrific.

Speaker 22 We hear what the gods and the rivers are going to do after the war to obliterate Troy, but you're very much in the moment.

Speaker 22 You're in this terrible psychological warfare going on between these, all of them, arrogant, aggressive narcissists, basically,

Speaker 22 on the Greek side anyway. And that's something we could talk about is how much more pleasant the Trojans are.

Speaker 11 Absolutely. Well, we'll get to that very quickly as we will explore the figure, interesting figure of Achilles, first of all.

Speaker 11 And just side note, the sacrifice of Iphigenia is Agamemnon's daughter, isn't it? And he sacrifices her to get the favourable winds.

Speaker 22 Fleets are becalmed by Artemis for reasons. I mean, none of this is in the Iliad.
and it's explained differently.

Speaker 22 So in order to get the winds to sail for Troy, he had to sacrifice his daughter, Iphigenia. That sets up, you know, the audience of the Iliad knows that when Agamemnon gets home, he's for it.

Speaker 22 His wife's going to kill him, but none of that is in the poem.

Speaker 11 None of that is in the poem, though. I just want to clarify, as you mentioned that earlier.
Right. Okay, let's explore Achilles.
He really does feel like the main character, doesn't he?

Speaker 11 What is his story in the Iliad? It feels like, as you say, it's this kind of unhinged vengeance fury arc that he has.

Speaker 22 Well, he does.

Speaker 22 And the scenes of his, when he goes berserk, literally berserk, he's a berserker on the battlefield and loses it in the bloodlust are very, very exciting.

Speaker 22 But those are actually delayed all the way through until we get to the last four, five books. He's kept in his tent nursing his grievance for almost all of the poem.
And in fact, we're on his side.

Speaker 22 One of the reasons this poem is so good is it throws us, when you start it throws us straight into a crisis in the Achaean camp they're called Achaeans not Greeks in the Achaean camp because they're all dying of plague because their ridiculous king Agamemnon has decided it's okay

Speaker 22 to kidnap the priestess of the local the daughter the local priest of Apollo because he fancies her And Apollo's not having this, so he's killing them all off.

Speaker 22 And there's a crisis, what are we going to do? And there's a meeting, and Achilles is

Speaker 22 being terribly insulted by Agamemnon. Agamemnon agrees grudgingly to give this young woman back to her father, Chrise.

Speaker 22 But he says, Hmm, what's the next prettiest girl in camp? Oh, I know, it's the one that Achilles has got, Briseis. I'll have her, right?

Speaker 22 I'm kingier than you. There's actually this adjective,

Speaker 22 we have a word for being kingy,

Speaker 22 and there's a superlative, basilutatos i am the kingiest here oh yeah the most king the superlative of king look at that i'm the kingier well it's an adjective i'm the most kingly i'm the kingiest i'm gonna have briseus and achilles quite understandably says you what

Speaker 22 and what you have is a row which sets up this really political theme because agamemnon is by heredity the most powerful king only because he's the son of the son of the sun By far, the better warrior is Achilles.

Speaker 22 He is by far the best warrior on the Achaean side, and he's the best warrior in the poem, and he's the best warrior in the world.

Speaker 22 And he has gone round and got lots and lots and lots of gold and booty from all the little towns they've already conquered in northwest Turkey, as it is now.

Speaker 22 How do you treat your best lieutenant who has helped you to wage war incredibly successfully and lucratively? You insult him. You take his girlfriend.
So Achilles lays it all out.

Speaker 22 He says, You may be kingier than me, but I'm much more soldiery than you. Okay.

Speaker 22 But it's absolutely thrilling because we're still having debates about whether we should abolish the House of Lords, hereditary peers.

Speaker 22 These are still issues, whether you should be able to rise on merit or whether you just, it's all about what sort of class and family you're born into. So it's burningly political.

Speaker 22 And we're all on Achilles' side.

Speaker 22 So

Speaker 22 Homer, let's just call all these poets for shorthand Homer, makes sure that although he behaves appallingly, we really get why he's so angry with his boss. We've all had,

Speaker 22 everybody has had a boss at some point who is less able than they are.

Speaker 22 And it is incredibly aggravating having to take orders from them and being exploited and mistreated by them. We've all been in that situation.

Speaker 22 Or we felt like that about a parent being arbitrary, right? There is no human in the world who has not been in Achilles' psychological situation.

Speaker 22 So that is the genius of it, that even though his behavior becomes utterly reprehensible, we're on his side for most of the poem.

Speaker 11 Does it add to the kind of complexity of Achilles' character? It almost feels like there's a dilemma that, yes, he has been mistreated.

Speaker 11 It's like his personal honor perhaps in his eyes has been attacked through agamemnon's actions but at the same time you know he is also has other friends amongst the greeks he's been fighting alongside the achaeans in the camp for years by this point

Speaker 11 and yet the person overall in charge the commander-in-chief has has sliced him in this way is there a dilemma as to what he will do whether he will fight or whether he will not fight is that a big part of the story Absolutely.

Speaker 22 And I'm absolutely willing him to stay in his tent and not help the overlord. The Achaean camp is a pretty dire, violent, aggressive, shouty place.
You know, there's lots of rows, lots of aggression.

Speaker 22 The one scene of real peace in the Achaean camp is Achilles' beautiful tent. He's got these soldiers who would give their lives for him, the Myrmidons.
He has absolute loyalty from his men.

Speaker 22 because unlike Agamemnon, he will always lead from the front. You know, he'll take every risk they do.

Speaker 22 He'll do anything for them and the myrmidons he withdraws from the war as well so they spend their time achilles plays the lyre he becomes a poet who sings songs patroclus his boyfriend has got pet dogs and they they retire to their tents and actually have this rather idyllic thing it's ambiguous about homoeroticism they are madly in love with each other, Achilles and Patroclus, but actually they both sleep with women in this tent.

Speaker 22 So they're having this idyllic time, sort of sex and music and all the rest of it, while all the other Achaeans are not doing very well on the battlefield because they haven't got Achilles.

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Speaker 11 And how central then is Patroclus to Achilles' whole story and his story arc in the Iliad?

Speaker 22 Well, he's crucial. And again, the artistry of Homer, Patroclus most unusually, has the attribute of gentleness.
And we're told everybody loved him because he was so gentle.

Speaker 22 This is paradoxical in an Iliadic warrior. But for example, Briseis

Speaker 22 loves him. She's Asiatic.
She loves this friend when she's given back to Achilles. And we learn that she says she really loved him because he was kind to her.

Speaker 22 He was actually kind to a captive slave girl and because he said he would help her to get Achilles to marry her, which would move her up from being bride of the spear, as they used to call it in 19th century translations, basically a rape victim.

Speaker 22 you know, war rape.

Speaker 22 If she actually got married, she should secure her future. So you've got this person who's given real moral attributes, which are most rare in this poem, that he's even kind to slave women.

Speaker 22 And he is a little older than Achilles. He's a sort of an adopted brother.
He was brought up. He'd fled to Achilles' household because he'd accidentally killed someone.

Speaker 22 Well, not quite accidentally, actually, but he'd made a big mistake as a young man. He'd fled, was brought up alongside Achilles.

Speaker 22 So they're brought up as brothers, but because they're not actually brothers by blood, a very, very intense relationship forms between them.

Speaker 22 In other ancient Greek sources, it's unashamedly homoerotic. Homer doesn't have homoerotic relationships in the Iliad.

Speaker 22 It's just not the cognitive contract with the audience, but certainly the most intense emotional bond in the poem is

Speaker 22 between Achilles and Patroclus. And very interestingly, a psychoanalyst called Jonathan Shea wrote a very famous book called Achilles in Vietnam in the 1990s.
He worked with a lot of veterans.

Speaker 22 And that sort of intense bond happened in Vietnam between squaddies, American Marines and so on who were out there, especially where there was an unpopular commander.

Speaker 11 It's so interesting, isn't it?

Speaker 11 And Patroclus, before we move on to Hector, obviously kind of another big figure in the story yeah his story is absolutely crucial in that kind of transition from Achilles always being in his tent to coming out later in the play and and and that that vengeful arc emerging yes because

Speaker 22 Patroclus when the Achaeans are really not doing well at all persuades Achilles that Achilles isn't going to fight but he says, just let me go and fight, wear your armor.

Speaker 22 You don't have to, but I'm going to go in. And Achilles doesn't want to let him, but he does go in.
And of course, he gets killed.

Speaker 22 And it's the death of Patroclus that makes Achilles really relinquish, not relinquish his rage with Agamemnon, but it's that his rage with Hector overshadows that.

Speaker 22 So he no longer thinks the Agamemnon insult, you know, that pales into insignificance besides his bereavement. That's the moment when he says he's got to go back to fight, but he hasn't got any arms.

Speaker 22 So his his mother has to go to Hephaestus for the new arms for Achilles. And he goes back into battle, very hastily makes up with Agamemnon.
Doesn't really matter to him anymore.

Speaker 22 And the rage against Hector is, of course, expressed in the most violent terms. Achilles actually sacrifices human captives from Troy.
some youths, 12 youths from Troy, kills them over the pyre

Speaker 22 of Patroclus, such as his rage. And there is no human sacrifice in the Iliad.
And it's one of the very few times where the authorial

Speaker 22 voice said he did a bad thing.

Speaker 11 Before looking at Hector in this story, Edith, but keeping on that kind of rage part of Achilles' story, there was this other part which I found really interesting that I know you've done some work on, which isn't Achilles going into battle and fighting mortal humans, but is there a part where he has a fight with a river?

Speaker 22 Absolutely. Indeed, when he goes in, finally goes into battle, he has what's there's a special word for it.
It's a certain kind of scene in the Iliad, and other characters get them called an aristia,

Speaker 22 which means showing off your

Speaker 22 excellence at fighting, right? So Diomedes gets one.

Speaker 22 He's another very good Achaean warrior in book five, where you kill serially, you know, like 10 goals, one after another in a football match, you kill the enemy in a fit of bloodlusts that could go on for several hours.

Speaker 22 And I think the ancient audiences, I use the goal analogy mindfully, because I think it was very exciting to listen to them. That yes, another Trojan bites the dust, and yes, another one, you know.

Speaker 22 And they're all killed in slightly different ways. So the spear goes through their belly, or the spear goes through their larynx, or the spear goes through their eye, or the, you know,

Speaker 22 lots of stuff. And I suspect that the ancient audiences were cheering with everyone.

Speaker 22 Achilles kills so many that the river Scamander, which is the great river that comes down from Mount Ida to the sea and

Speaker 22 provides water for Troy, gets all blocked up with corpses. They all jump in the river to try to escape.
He kills them in the river. The river is completely dammed with corpses.

Speaker 22 So at that point, the river assumes anthropomorphic form. That means he takes on the form of a human and

Speaker 22 is so angry with Achilles for polluting his lovely waters. And also Achilles pulls all the trees down that line the riverbank.
He destroys the beauty of the whole riverscape.

Speaker 22 So Scamander fights Achilles in the most terrifying way because he's bigger and he's a god and he would have defeated Achilles.

Speaker 22 He in fact even calls on another river, one of his tributaries, to come and help him. But Hera at that point sends in fire, who fights the river instead.

Speaker 22 But not already, the river has flooded the entire Trojan plain. So you've actually got an it's like a dam bursting.

Speaker 22 I was writing about this in my latest book, this particular scene, when there was that terrible, terrible, terrible, I think it was 2023, the dams burst in Libya.

Speaker 22 I don't know if you remember, and killed tens of thousands of people. And it was caused by human technological failure.
This was not an earthquake. This was a human dam

Speaker 22 that burst, right?

Speaker 22 And that's what it's like with the rivers of commander. A human pollutes his waters.
Human blocks it up. This is Achilles.
And the river retaliates and causes far, far more destruction.

Speaker 22 So I see this as an environmental parable.

Speaker 11 It is such an interesting part of Achilles' story that is sometimes overlooked compared to his great fight with Hector, but I'm glad we mentioned it there.

Speaker 11 And I know, because also it's something that you've done a lot of work around, Edith, and hopefully we'll revisit that theme as we go on.

Speaker 11 If we now go on to Hector, because I feel he is another important character we've got to talk about if we're doing the Iliad.

Speaker 22 Oh, gosh, yes. And he's a worthy opponent for Achilles.

Speaker 11 How does he compare to Achilles in terms of heroism? Because we've talked about the Greek perspective in the Achaean camp. I mean, what's been going on in Troy and how Hector fits into this?

Speaker 22 He's more heroic for many reasons. One is that he's 100% mortal.
Achilles has got this advantage that he's bionic. He's half divine, right? His mother is Thetis.

Speaker 22 He's got supernatural powers on the battlefield. The only reason he'll ever die is because of his ankle.
And of course, that's not in this poem. But, you know,

Speaker 22 he could have been fully immortal. He's very nearly nearly fully immortal.
Hector is 100% ordinary guy. He's the Prince of Troy.
He loves his dad very much, Priam.

Speaker 22 His dad, Prime, is too old to run military ops. So while Priam is still administrative king, Hector is his commander-in-chief and shares the monarchical duties.
He's a lovely husband.

Speaker 22 This is one of the really big contrasts that were Achilles and Agamemnon are raping all these slave girls by compulsion and coercion. Hector's got this

Speaker 22 wife who adores him.

Speaker 22 He's not adulterous. He's got a baby son who adores him.
All his people adore him. He's nice to his mother.
He's even nice to Helen. And he is fighting a defensive war.

Speaker 22 And how many of us these days, most of us do not glorify aggressive militarism, but can absolutely identify with somebody who's risking his life to defend his people, his wife and his baby.

Speaker 22 You know, this is the acceptable face of violence for most of us is defensive. So he's got all these moral cards stacked in his favor and he is impetuous.

Speaker 22 That is his main failing, that he doesn't deliberate properly before engaging in military strategies. But he also, there's a crucial moment before the final showdown where he could go back into Troy.

Speaker 22 He could. He's been fighting for days.

Speaker 22 He could go back in and he stands on the battlefield and says, It's a very metaphysical moment: Shall I go back in and feel shame before the women of Troy with their trailing robes that I'm not out there fighting for them?

Speaker 22 Shall I go inside and survive and be safe but feel shame? Or shall I just die and do a big thing? And there's this big thing, it's the actual translation of the Greek.

Speaker 22 Megaty Rexum, having done a big thing and I will at least get immortal fame,

Speaker 22 go down nobly. And that's what he decides to do.
And of course, the gods help Achilles. Hector doesn't have a chance.
But I cry in book 22 when Hector dies.

Speaker 11 It was a few years ago that I remember studying this part of the Iliad, but there's that extraordinary scene of him, as you mentioned, his loving wife, Andromache, and they have that whole conversation together.

Speaker 11 And is she the one who's begging him not to go out again? But Hector's like, is it my duty? I have to go back out or something.

Speaker 22 It's extraordinary it's book six he's on the wall she meets him on the wall with the baby and begs him not to go and then she tries to give him military advice about sticking near the wall where it's safer and this that and the next thing and he will not he will not heed her and in fact of course troy would fall anyway i mean he's right in a way but it is absolutely heartbreaking and even more heartbreaking is when she gets the news in book 22 when he is killed she's actually inside weaving and she hears the noise and gets and runs out, tears off her veil and faints and collapses.

Speaker 22 And then we next see her in the final book leading the women of Troy's lament over her lovely husband. So

Speaker 22 it's very carefully done. And this is why it's so much better than most

Speaker 22 movies of as I talk about Clint Eastwoods and stuff. Usually in Clint Eastwood movies, you don't have with the final shootout, you know, you've got proper bad guys being done in, right?

Speaker 22 They're very simple morally. The Iliad is anything but

Speaker 22 Homer, although these Achaeans are ancestors of the Greek audiences, they're not as nice as the Trojans, and that is really cleverly done. So it makes it very morally balanced.
And

Speaker 22 Hector's father comes into his own in the last book because Achilles has been abusing the corpse of Hector famously, dragging it, tying him by the ankles to the back of his chariot and driving it round and round Troy.

Speaker 22 He's stopped doing that because the gods intervene, but Priam has to go very bravely, an old man, into the enemy camp and asks Achilles to hand over the body. And do you know what he does?

Speaker 22 And they have this incredible redemptive moment where they look admiringly at each other. They both lost so much.

Speaker 22 Achilles has lost Patroclus, Priam has lost Hector, and these two warring kings just get each other. And you want to say, why didn't you have that conversation 24 books ago?

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Speaker 9 Coach, the energy out there felt different. What changed for the team today?

Speaker 10 It was the new game day scratches from the California lottery.

Speaker 11 Play is everything.

Speaker 12 Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Speaker 14 Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Speaker 15 Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

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Speaker 11 So that's the end of the story, is it, Edith? Because I was going to say, book 22, you said that's the climax, that's the fight where Hector dies, but it's 24 books.

Speaker 11 And you've gone from feeling sad for Achilles at the beginning to now feeling being more on the Trojan side with the death of Hector. And I guess it's that wrapping up very quickly.

Speaker 11 It's the prime getting the body back so it can have the important burial rights, which is so important.

Speaker 22 Yeah, of the actually ordinary human who has sacrificed everything to try and save the people we've come to be very fond of in the course of the poem.

Speaker 11 It's also very interesting, I'll just say this briefly, that you have on the one hand Agamemnon as a leader, militaristic leader, I say, compared to Priam, that old man, and yet Priam has such an important role by the end, doesn't he?

Speaker 22 And his wife and Hecuba.

Speaker 11 Well, actually, that leads me nicely on to the next thing is that we talked about Andromache and you've mentioned as well Briseis.

Speaker 11 But do we have many women appearing in the Iliad and do they play a major role in in the story?

Speaker 22 Well we've got goddesses a lot. Thetis is Achilles' mother who will do anything for him and is a very emotionally sophisticated figure who intervenes with Zeus for him, intervenes with Hephaestus.

Speaker 22 We've got Hera and Athena and Artemis. We have the goddesses.
But the gods are really amoral and childish compared with the humans. That's both men and women.
But the women are fascinating.

Speaker 22 So the big women are Criseus and Briseis, but they don't get very much to say. Briseus has this one wonderful speech, lament for Patroclus, when she says how kind he was to her.

Speaker 22 We have Andromache, who is very proud and very tender,

Speaker 22 admirable wife and mother, exactly the sort of person whose civilization shouldn't be destroyed. We have Hecuba, equally madly, loves Hector, so her son, and of course, we have Helen.

Speaker 22 Helen appears in book three and regrets bitterly. She tells us how much she regrets what she's done.
She, I think, fancies Hector rather than Paris.

Speaker 22 She has a bit of a flirt with Hector in book six. And he doesn't blame her.
He's kind even to Helen. He sees this is a man's game and that she's just a porn

Speaker 22 man's game. And she also sings a lament for Hector.
There's four women who sing laments in book 24, and that is Andromache, Hecuba, Helen, and Cassandra.

Speaker 22 We meet Cassandra in book 24, who, of course, by having Cassandra in, we know that somebody there knows everything that's going to happen. It's very clever.

Speaker 22 But I mean, so we've got in the final book, we have Hector's mother, wife, sister, and sister-in-law. Right.
So it's the full compliment and they all love him.

Speaker 11 I don't want to say nice, but it's a very kind of poignant end to Hector's story, having got the body back.

Speaker 11 You mentioned also there that other part of the story that I'd like to ask about before we move on, Edith, which is, of course, the role of the gods.

Speaker 11 So is the role of the gods, is it very self- are they portrayed all as being very selfish in their outlook? Are half of them siding with the Trojans, half of them with the Greeks?

Speaker 11 How are the gods portrayed in the Iliad?

Speaker 22 The main way that they're there is to show how much greater humans are as moral agents precisely because the gods can't die they're deprived of any real tragic dimension all these humans are facing mortality and the real cost of having to act the gods are basically unaccountable and can be irresponsible they can get injured they get injured there's that there's there's some fighting between them the worst one of all and i'm quite fond of him because he's so awful is aries

Speaker 22 war god because all the other gods are on one side or another for historic reasons there are reasons why to do with their alliances to do with the judgment of paris to do with who of them have got children on the battlefield or or grandchildren except for zeus who's kind of up there and a bit kind of weirdly disengaged he's just got to make sure fate takes its course but he's sad because he says the trojans were the most pious people who always sacrificed a lot to him but aries is wonderful because he he can't remember what side he's on he's not on any side so athena is the goddess of tactical warfare and and planned warfare he's the god of just mindless thuggery so in book five he's on the battlefield and he starts just jumping around killing anybody like like doesn't matter which side they're on wow there's even a word that means it says that he's allo prosellos which means he jumps once to one side and then to the other side and athena says what is the problem with you you you you you know fighting's okay if you've got a motive or a reason that you can explain but this just violence for the sake of it and you know i've seen scene like scenes like that in glaswegian pubs late at night i have and i think you could probably see them on some football terraces where people just don't care what side they're hitting and it's also is it just the main gods or are there demigods as well or do you know as you mentioned there so there are some people who who are half man half god who are fighting with the achaeans or the trojans i mean there's all this different mix of hybrid gods and gods and and mortals there

Speaker 22 And river gods and river gods.

Speaker 11 Yeah, no,

Speaker 22 it's a whole panoply and they've got different status and there are arguments about status.

Speaker 22 So the last guy that Achilles kills before he fights the river is called Asteripaeus and he's come very recently to Troy and he's the he he's the son of

Speaker 22 a Thracian river. So we have this god off where it's like, is somebody who's the son of a big river more important than someone who's the son of a sea goddess

Speaker 22 it's like the status game is a parody in a way of status in human life like

Speaker 22 am i kingier than you

Speaker 22 that that that extends into how much divine blood am i goddier than you well yeah am i am i goddier than you yeah

Speaker 22 it's uh it's absolutely wonderful but the gods counterpoint is crucial because they, at the end of the day, you always have this amazing formulae like they just went back to feasts and inextinguishable laughter arose amongst the gods.

Speaker 22 I mean, they're up there just laughing while humans are fighting, dying, and losing their nearest and dearest.

Speaker 11 As we move on to themes, I feel we've covered many of the big points and big characters of the Iliad story there, Edith.

Speaker 11 I must also ask, because we've just talked about gods fighting alongside these mythical heroes in the iliad historical basis though do we think that there could have been at least some historical basis for a big achaean bronze age fleet crossing over to troy and there being an actual siege of troy oh definitely without a doubt in terms of the general pattern we know this Lineaby is a script that was used by people of the era of Agamemnon and Achilles, right?

Speaker 22 The Greeks subsequently lost that script and lost it for several hundred years until the writing that came in from the Phoenicians, with which they wrote down the poems in the eighth century.

Speaker 22 But we know from remains of that script from places in the Peloponnese and Crete

Speaker 22 that there were raiding parties going out from Greece to get women and booty and stuff

Speaker 22 from the eastern Aegean and the Turk, what's now Anatolia, the west coast of Turkey. This is historically attested fact.
That is more historically attested than the actual site of Troy.

Speaker 22 We are not sure whether people have identified there is a Bronze Age palace of the right kind of date at a place called Hisalik, which since the mid-19th century, everybody said is probably Troy, and I think it probably is.

Speaker 22 But whether actually a man called Agamemnon went and led any of these parties is irrelevant.

Speaker 22 There was a thalasocracy, that means it's a sea power, in the Bronze Age of these Mycenaean Greeks who wrote in Linear B, and they were engaged in trading and aggressive activities,

Speaker 22 for trading, raiding, I think, in precisely those areas, especially around the Hellespont, which was always a strategic hotspot.

Speaker 11 I'd like to move on to themes now, Edith.

Speaker 11 And one theme in particular that I'd love to ask about first of all, because I know we could talk about there are so many other major themes linked to the Iliad, whether that be fate and prophecy, friendship, honor.

Speaker 11 But one I find really interesting, having read some of your work before recording, is also this

Speaker 11 talk about

Speaker 11 the world that they lived in, the natural world around them, but also natural disasters that occurred too. Is this also quite an interesting theme in the Iliad?

Speaker 22 It's very apocalyptic in its imagination.

Speaker 22 So, strangely, a lot of this happens in similes, but you have countless similes that the soldiers descended on the other side like a wildfire sweeping over a mountain, or they rise up like a wave that crashes and destroys everything in its path.

Speaker 22 Earthquake sort of stuff. One mention is of terrible hunger, famine.
There's only one, and that's in the last book. But I think that there are

Speaker 22 echoes or memories. No, they're memories, they're poetically encoded memories of the collapse of the Bronze Age civilizations with their tsunamis and fires and famines and displacements.

Speaker 22 I think that we're talking a post-apocalyptic poem. The Greeks of the eighth century could see around them ruins of these great Mycenaean palaces.
They've probably even seen bits of Linear B.

Speaker 22 We know from tomb findings that they discovered relics of the bronze armor, because they're now living in the Iron Age, but they've discovered these bronze relics and so on.

Speaker 22 So they're construing, as we might, what it was like to be in the age of King Arthur from a handful of medieval artifacts and scraps of poetry, that kind of thing. So

Speaker 22 I think the apocalyptic tone is partly memory.

Speaker 22 But I've argued in this new book, which I'm going to plug called Epic of the Earth, reading Homer's Iliad in in the fight for a dying world.

Speaker 22 I also think they betray at some level that they knew that they were chopping down too many trees. And they certainly were.

Speaker 22 The deforestation of the periphery of the Mediterranean began in the Bronze Age for three reasons. One was you actually just needed a lot of wood to build all those thousand ships, right?

Speaker 22 And all the watch fires and all the palisades. The second was that they cleared land at a disastrous rate for pasturage, all those cattle.

Speaker 22 We're facing that now with how much land you need for cattle compared with growing lentils or whatever.

Speaker 22 And the third reason, and perhaps the most important one, was smelting.

Speaker 22 The amount of wood you need to make even one piece of bronze armour in terms of the furnaces and the fires is unbelievable.

Speaker 22 So the Iliad is the expression of an age when the Greeks were pushing ever further afield and cutting down ever more forests.

Speaker 22 Whenever they ran out, they would just move further east, further south, further north, cut down more forests to feed this.

Speaker 22 And they believed they were infinite, but they had no knowledge of that there were limits to Earth.

Speaker 22 Doesn't excuse it, but I think that the Iliad at a subconscious level is letting us know they knew this was a problem.

Speaker 11 So it's almost a sense that, I mean, I said with all this exploiting of resources, not knowing that there was a finite limit at that time, and then with the hindsight several hundred years later, post-Bronze Age collapse, is there a sense in the Iliad that the Trojan War and all the conflict?

Speaker 11 I mean, it was almost catalyzing a natural disaster.

Speaker 22 Yes, I think so.

Speaker 22 I think you have to read it a bit against the grain, and you have to,

Speaker 22 as I say, go for what literary critics call it's political unconscious, but it's absolutely there.

Speaker 22 The amount of the trees of Ida that must have been cut down to keep that war going.

Speaker 11 Oh, Mount Ida, and that's that's the big mountain nearby in Anatolia, yeah.

Speaker 22 And it's got this incredibly precious fir tree. There's only a few left, and it's the only grows in that area of the world.

Speaker 22 And it's called the subspecies, Abbey's is the fir or pine, but it's called the subspecies Trojan horse by botanists because they assume it was.

Speaker 22 And the fight for the survival of that forest, which is now only at the very top of the mountain, is on now.

Speaker 22 So we're still living the aftermath of the rapacious attitude to natural resources that is expressed in this hyper-consumption that's described with glory in the Iliad.

Speaker 11 I do find it so interesting. I love how you mentioned all those similes as well and how all those different,

Speaker 11 having done an interview on the Bronze Age collapse, a couple in the past, how Dr.

Speaker 11 Eric Klein kind of explained how it probably is a combination, you know, famine, earthquakes, tsunamis and all those things, you know, and forest fires and everything, how they can all combine to be like a perfect storm.

Speaker 11 So interesting that you have those similes of those natural events as well. Edith, lastly, this has been brilliant, but also bringing it down to the modern day.

Speaker 11 And I know this also relates to your new book, too. How useful then can the Iliad be when looking at the modern 21st century and important world issues today?

Speaker 22 Well, I think it can actually help us because we will see that these problems have been going on for 3,000 years and more. I think the Anthropocene started with the invention of bronze, of metallurgy.

Speaker 22 Before metallurgy, you couldn't really do colonial warfare. You can't do siege warfare by blowing darts out of fennel sticks, throwing ceramics.
You can't do it. You had to have metal.

Speaker 22 And metal required all that unbelievable amount of wood. It also required obscene working conditions for children, slaves, including children in mines.
It's kind of the turning point.

Speaker 22 I think the Iliad is the poem. of the moment our decline started.

Speaker 22 So although it's glorious and wonderful, and I want everybody to read it, I think we can read it in a new tragic way that might inspire us to go out and fight for our planet.

Speaker 22 I want us to use the warfare in the Iliad to fight for our planet.

Speaker 22 And that's why I've written this book and I've dedicated it to my children and all the rest of Generation Z with apologies for the state of the planet.

Speaker 22 Because I am ashamed that I'm 65 years old and I'm handing on. you know, I haven't done more.
I really am.

Speaker 11 Edith, well, it's a wonderful book and it's a very, very noble cause.

Speaker 22 Last but certainly not least, the book is called Epic of the Earth, Reading Homer's Iliad in the Fight for a Dying World.

Speaker 22 It's going to be published next month by Yale University Press and it's a trade book so it is not all that expensive.

Speaker 11 Fantastic. Well Edith thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast today.

Speaker 22 Thank you very much.

Speaker 11 Well, there you go. There was Professor Edith Hall giving you an overview of some of the key themes, really interesting themes of the epic, epic, that is the Iliad.
I hope you enjoyed today's episode.

Speaker 11 If you'd like more of Professor Edith Hall on the Ancients, well, you're in luck because Edith also featured for one of our most popular episodes ever, released at the beginning of this year, all about Atlantis and exploring the ancient Greek story of Atlantis preserved in Plato and what Plato's dialogues actually say about this legendary city that was ultimately engulfed by the waves.

Speaker 11 Go and check out that episode if you want to listen to more Edith Hall on the Ancients. Thank you once again for listening to this episode of The Ancients.

Speaker 11 Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.

Speaker 11 Now don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.

Speaker 11 Lastly, if you want more ancient history videos and clips in the meantime, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at Ancients Tristan. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.

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