The Ten Commandments

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Speaker 1 Hello, I hope you're doing well. I'm all good here.
I'm slightly cold as I walk through my nearby park for my lunch break, but it is nearing Christmas, so I cannot complain.

Speaker 1 Today's episode, we are going back to the Old Testament and we're exploring the story, the topic of the Ten Commandments. We've all heard of the Ten Commandments, but what exactly are they?

Speaker 1 One of my favorite parts of this chat was actually going through them one by one with our guest, our returning guest, the wonderful Dr.

Speaker 1 Dylan Johnson, a lecturer in ancient Near Eastern history at the University of Cardiff.

Speaker 1 Dylan, he's been on before to talk through other Old Testament topics like Sodom and Gomorrah and the Ark of the Covenant. He's a lovely guy and a fantastic speaker.

Speaker 1 He came into our recording studio in London. We filmed it as well, so it will also be available on our Ancients YouTube channel.
I really really do hope you enjoy let's go

Speaker 1 the ten commandments the bedrock the famous stone tablets given to moses on mount sinai this instruction set written on stone to be housed in the legendary Ark of the Covenant, still forms the basis of so much of our own legal and moral code today.

Speaker 1 We know the biblical story intimately. The golden calf, the shattered stone, the covenant forged in the desert after the exodus from Egypt.
But the question is not about faith.

Speaker 1 The question today is about history. Do we have any archaeological evidence of the Ten Commandments? What are the Ten Commandments supposed to be? Are they just traditional prohibitives?

Speaker 1 Are they a law code? Are they a constitution?

Speaker 1 To answer these questions and explore the complex history of one of the world's most famous texts, I am joined by historian, biblical scholar, and expert in the ancient Near East, Dr. Dylan Johnson.

Speaker 1 Dylan, it is such a pleasure to have you back on the podcast today.

Speaker 14 It's very great to be back. Thank you.

Speaker 1 And to talk about the Ten Commandments, I mean, these are, I don't want to say laws, but... the messages of them are still so important today in the world that we live.

Speaker 14 Yeah, exactly. I mean, just look across media today about all of these movements to try and have the Ten Commandments placed in front of political buildings, in schools.

Speaker 14 They are a symbol representing something that has to do with identity, but also with an ethical or legalistic code. They exist somewhere in between morality and law.

Speaker 1 Because morality, it seems to have very much shaped. how we generally view morality today, isn't it? Things like thou shalt not kill and the like.

Speaker 1 And you have those origins of that with these commandments.

Speaker 14 Exactly. So that's the fundamental debate between law and ethics is, is law simply an outgrowth of ethics? Is ethics a component of law?

Speaker 14 I suppose you could say the difference between a law and an ethical proclamation is thou shalt not kill is different from you shall not commit first degree murder.

Speaker 14 And here's the punishment for what happens when you do.

Speaker 1 In regards to the story of the Ten Commandments, we'll go through the biblical narrative first and then explore a bit more of the various components of it and how it fits into the Near Eastern world of the time.

Speaker 1 Because it is an amazing story when you do delve into those details and you explore the relationships between the people who were talking about these laws more than 2,000 years ago and the various civilizations that existed at the time.

Speaker 14 Yeah, exactly. And I think context is really important and often lost in most debates about the Ten Commandments because as moral exhortations, they speak to people today.

Speaker 14 But it helps us a lot to understand what they are by understanding the cultures, societies, and contexts from which it emerges.

Speaker 1 Right, Dylan, let's set the scene. The story of the Ten Commandments, what is the biblical narrative? Where are we going in the Old Testament?

Speaker 14 Well, we can actually go to two places because they appear twice.

Speaker 14 Almost verbatim, not quite, but they appear in part of Exodus in chapter 20, and then they appear again in a part of the book of Deuteronomy in chapter 5.

Speaker 14 But maybe we'll start with the first narrative encounter, which is in Exodus.

Speaker 1 That's the second book, isn't it?

Speaker 14 That's the second book of of the Bible. So Genesis, story of creation and the patriarchs, Exodus, Moses' story.

Speaker 14 So as you can imagine, since we're in Moses' story, the Ten Commandments are very closely connected to the figure of Moses, who we've talked about before.

Speaker 14 In the narrative context of Exodus, then, we are at a stage when the Israelites have left Egypt. So the 12 plagues have occurred.
They've made it across the Red Sea and now

Speaker 14 parting the Red Sea. They're now in the desert, where? Somewhere in the Sinai Peninsula, we believe, or at least that's where the narrative places us, and at the foot of a mountain.

Speaker 14 And this mountain actually has two names in biblical tradition. One is Mount Sinai, hence the name of the desert in which they are in.

Speaker 14 But in other contexts, it's referred to as Mount Horeb, but we assume two names for essentially the same place.

Speaker 14 And what's important about this mountain is this is the Theophanic mountain, the mountain where God resides.

Speaker 14 And in no no uncertain terms, we're told that Yahweh, the God of Israel, is up on this mountain. And we know this because it's surrounded by smoke and cloud and fire.

Speaker 14 So we don't get a description of an anthropomorphic deity, but whatever form the God of Israel takes is obscured up there by this.

Speaker 14 But this becomes very important because eventually Moses is going to go up.

Speaker 1 Is it a bit like the burning bush story earlier, where, you know, Moses talks to God through that burning bush idea?

Speaker 14 Very much.

Speaker 14 so in in the same kind of sense that whatever form this formless god assumes the narrative is very careful not to describe it in too too much detail although we get a little bit of detail about god's body a little bit later in exodus but specifically here it's this really theophanic smoke and fire obscures that because again as we'll get into you're not supposed to know what the image of god look like it's one of the ten commandments so moses and his followers are in the desert and then they reach this mountain so what's the story of moses then going up this mountain to meet and talk with god so moses is summoned up the mountain essentially a call he's a prophet he he is the prophet among prophets uniquely able to speak to god face to face so this is very very important because really no other human being is permitted this direct access to the deity Even the high priest doesn't get this kind of access.

Speaker 14 And in fact, at the end of Deuteronomy, when Moses is about to die, he's remembered for this as

Speaker 14 the prophet among prophets who spoke to God face to face.

Speaker 14 And they're referring to this episode, but also the burning bush, where Moses ascends the mountain, and there he encounters the deity, this deity who has elected him or selected him for leadership of the people.

Speaker 14 And what is told to Moses is these 10 prescriptions or proscriptions, however you want to decide them, define them, based on how the Israelites ought to live their lives in very broad strokes.

Speaker 14 And what's really critical in this context is this is not only just communicated verbally to Moses, but actually in written form.

Speaker 14 And these are the only texts, with the exception of some strange bodiless handwriting upon the walls.

Speaker 1 Ah, Belshazzar, Belshazzar.

Speaker 14 But this is the only substantial. bit of writing attributed to God himself.
And in fact, the text says that God writes the Ten Commandments with his finger finger on two tablets of stone.

Speaker 14 And these are what are given to Moses. And so there's a couple things to highlight there.
Number one is that even in the narrative context, that the Ten Commandments are considered a textual unit.

Speaker 14 And not only are they special in the fact that they are

Speaker 14 divinely written parts of scripture, really the only divinely written parts of scripture, but they're on a very material form of media in the form of these stone tablets.

Speaker 14 All the rest of the biblical story, which is never really described, is presumed to have just been transmitted on scrolls, on scroll media.

Speaker 14 But these are very specific in the materiality of the content.

Speaker 14 And so the narrative goes, Moses receives these tablets, descends, only to find the Israelites basically violating some of the major tenets.

Speaker 1 It doesn't go well at this time, does it? So whilst he's been away, the Israelites have

Speaker 1 not been loyal to what he wanted.

Speaker 14 Yeah, and this is kind of the debate. What exactly are the Israelites doing?

Speaker 14 So the narrative says that under the guidance of Aaron, who's Moses' brother, and suspiciously avoids blame in this scenario, had encouraged them to melt down the gold, which they'd brought with them from Egypt and create a calf, a representation of some kind of deity, which we'll get into as one of the things that the Ten Commandments prohibits.

Speaker 14 And there's been a lot of debate among scholars about, well, what is that calf supposed to depict? Is it a foreign deity? Or is it a depiction of Yahweh himself? And those are two different questions.

Speaker 14 And in fact, are covered by two different laws in the Ten Commandments the exclusive worship of Yahweh being one and the use of idols icons and images being another do you think that's supposed to be a throwback to their time in ancient Egypt and all the animal gods that you associate with that culture no I think it's a throw forward to the ways that they would worship Yahweh in Israel especially ways that they would worship Yahweh outside of Jerusalem in places like Bethel and Dan places associated with the northern kingdom because we have very obvious intertextual parallels.

Speaker 14 When Aaron exclaims, see, Israel, here are your gods. The first king of the northern kingdom of Israel, whose name is Jeroboam, says the exact same thing.
And so

Speaker 14 this is a very subtle critique of the way that they worshiped Yahweh in places that weren't Jerusalem, retrojected into the distant past.

Speaker 1 But does that mean actually there were places like later on, as you say, that this is trying to point to, where Yahweh, where God was worshipped in an animal form, in an animal statue kind of thing?

Speaker 1 Is that the idea?

Speaker 14 We presume so. There's plenty of biblical passages that talk about Yahweh as the bull.
In fact, it's one of the associated images that we get in textual form.

Speaker 14 And we find cast bovine images all over Israel and Judah and Palestine and these places.

Speaker 14 And the biblical text tells us that at these major cult centers in the north, that's exactly how Yahweh was worshipped.

Speaker 14 So again, this kind of episode within a bigger episode is tied to normative religious practices of Israel being rejected in certain respects.

Speaker 1 So interesting because, once again, that hints at the historical context as well.

Speaker 1 And I had no idea that actually there is this evidence of God being worshipped in some communities in the form of a bull, which is fascinating. But let's go back to the story.

Speaker 1 So Moses descends with these tablets written by Yahweh, by God, and then he sees the golden calf. He's not happy.
No.

Speaker 14 So

Speaker 14 he's very despondent by what he sees, and he smashes the tablets. So this, what we would imagine being very precious items being smashed, I'll fast forward the story a little bit.
Don't fret.

Speaker 14 He goes and gets a second copy, thankfully. Otherwise, we wouldn't have the Ten Commandments.
They would have been smashed.

Speaker 14 But because of the idolatry, if you want to define it as such, of the Israelites, he smashes the first copy of the tablets only to go back up. and get a second copy.

Speaker 14 And the biblical text is very clear to tell us that. And he wrote exactly the same thing on these two tablets.
So there's no discrepancy in the manuscript copies of those tablets.

Speaker 1 And then he brings those down. And so they are inscribed in stone.
Is that the idea? Exactly. And what are the commandments that are inscribed on these tablets? Shall we go through them?

Speaker 1 If you're okay to go through them, let's go through them one by one. Number one.

Speaker 14 Number one, that's debated.

Speaker 14 So the first one, the way it begins, and we'll circle back to this, the way it begins is, I am Yahweh, your God, he who brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Speaker 14 Now, for most traditions, that's just the preamble. But for some, such as in Rabbinic tradition and Catholic tradition, that's law number one.
That's the first of the Ten Commandments.

Speaker 14 Recognize that Yahweh is your God. Okay, so that's for some traditions, one.
For many traditions, that's just the preamble. Then we move on to 1-2.

Speaker 14 We'll just stick with one at this stage. And then the next commandment that we encounter is, you shall have no other gods before me.
And the Hebrew here is Lifne,

Speaker 14 which can be read monotheistically and has for the last two and a half thousand years, that they will not worship any other deity, but it doesn't actually say that.

Speaker 1 Yes, Lifne, does that mean before? Very before me.

Speaker 14 I guess above me in the sense of kind of hierarchy. And so it could be read monotheistically.
And as I said, for millennia, it has been read monotheistically, but it doesn't have to be.

Speaker 14 It simply says that if you are a polytheist, you're going to give preference to Yahweh. That's a way to read that text.
Okay, so

Speaker 14 that's an important text, however, because it establishes what we call biblical monolatry, that if you are an Israelite or a Judahite, you worship Yahweh above all other deities.

Speaker 14 That's the next one, which flows fairly naturally into the ban on any kind of icon. So this is, you know, following right on the episode where they made an icon.

Speaker 14 And it makes very, very clear that these are not to be icons of anything anything in the heavens above on the earth below or in the waters that are underneath the earth which

Speaker 14 is maybe a bit peculiar to modern interpreters but to the ancient minds made perfect sense because you had celestial deities deities who lived in the sky

Speaker 14 sometimes stars sometimes the sky itself the sun the moon these are deities in the ancient Near East On earth you have deities that reside on mountains you have deities that are rivers so you have many terrestrial deities and then they believed that there there was a subterranean ocean beneath the ground.

Speaker 14 And you have what we call chthonic deities, deities of the underworld and deities associated with this water.

Speaker 14 And so the prohibitionist says, don't worship or don't make images of any of these types of deities. So it's a very all-encompassing prohibition.

Speaker 1 Is that borrowed also? I'm just thinking of the Book of the Dead, for instance, from ancient Egypt, and they're on a river, aren't they, onto the afterlife?

Speaker 1 So that, once again, you see that parallel through different cultures of this, you know,

Speaker 1 this river associated with the afterlife slash the underworld.

Speaker 14 Yeah, it's it's a river or maybe it's an ocean. In Mesopotamia, we have we have the Apsu, which is this subterranean sweet water ocean, probably from encounters with underground springs.

Speaker 14 But in any case, when the Bible describes the underworld, which isn't very often, they call it Sheol, and it seems to be at some times a wet place, but other times not.

Speaker 14 So we don't get a very clear intention.

Speaker 1 It's a fiery place.

Speaker 14 Not a fiery place yet. That comes later with Greek and Second Temple Judaism when they start to think of it as Gehenna, this place of fire, damnation, and punishment.

Speaker 14 We're not there yet in the history of religion.

Speaker 1 So that's the one. So you shall not make for yourself.
I've got the text here.

Speaker 1 Make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. So that's that one.
Yep. And so what's the next one?

Speaker 14 So the next one, and you're going to have to help me a little bit here because I don't have it memorized.

Speaker 1 Well, it says, you shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God. Right.
For the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

Speaker 1 It's quite difficult today, I must admit.

Speaker 14 Exactly. So if my grandmother were to interpret that biblical text, she would say, don't say Jesus Christ as an expletive or some kind of shout.

Speaker 14 Of course, that's not what ancient Israelites were thinking. And in fact,

Speaker 14 we don't know for sure what that prohibition is saying, because the language is a bit difficult.

Speaker 14 It says, you shall not raise up my name for, in a Hebrew word, Shavah, which means emptiness, idleness, folly, which doesn't really encapsulate how it's typically translated.

Speaker 14 King James translated it, take my name in vain, but no one really knows what that means either.

Speaker 14 Our best guess is it probably refers to oaths, that the way that you swore oaths in the ancient world was either by the name of a god or the name of the king.

Speaker 14 And so by saying, don't raise up my name in vain, which basically means don't break your oaths that you swear by me. So that's the best interpretation we have.

Speaker 14 Later reception takes this to mean don't even say the name of God because God has a proper name. You can call him God or Hashem or other Adonai, the Lord, but the name Yahweh, you will not pronounce.

Speaker 14 So that's an interpretation based on. that text and a couple of others.

Speaker 1 Because nowadays you would link it straight away with blasphemy or just saying the name Jesus or oh my God or some of that in a in a context day.

Speaker 1 So it's really interesting to see the difference between now and, you know, back in ancient times.

Speaker 14 And I should clarify, it's distinctively not blasphemy because they have a word to blaspheme and they have other ways of expressing it, like cursing the name of God. That's not what's being said here.

Speaker 14 What's being said here is don't raise up the name for idleness or emptiness. Don't take it too lightly is what it really says.

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Speaker 1 Well, the next one's also very interesting, and one I think I'm also a bit guilty of. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

Speaker 1 Like six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. So don't do any work on the Sunday, I guess.

Speaker 14 There, you're reading Deuteronomy by saying remember. Oh, okay.
Okay. Because in Exodus, it it says keep or guard.

Speaker 14 And this is one of the big differences between the Exodus version of the Ten Commandments and the Deuteronomy version.

Speaker 14 So Deuteronomy says remember the Sabbath day, different verb, whereas Exodus says keep the Sabbath day. So guard it, observe it.
And there might be some significance in that single verb interchange.

Speaker 14 Now, of course, they're both saying essentially the same thing, which is the seventh day is meant to be kept sacrosanct. You're not supposed to work.

Speaker 14 And this is one of the few other places where there's fundamental divergence in the two accounts of the decalogue which i should explain is another way that we talk about the ten commandments decalogue just meaning ten words yeah decalogue yeah

Speaker 14 which is just a translation of the hebrew devarim

Speaker 14 so ten words because in in exodus why do we keep the sabbath and they explain you know that not only you but your your wives your children and your slaves all should keep the sabbath because in six days god created the heavens and the earth and the seventh he rested and so in emulation of creation, that's why we keep the Sabbath day, according to Exodus.

Speaker 14 According to Deuteronomy, we keep the Sabbath day because I, the Lord your God, brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Speaker 14 So in Deuteronomy, you keep the Sabbath because of the Exodus, not because of creation.

Speaker 1 Well, if we want to move on to the next one, I think it's quite a nice one. Honor your father and your mother.

Speaker 14 Right. Again.

Speaker 1 What does that mean?

Speaker 1 So that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

Speaker 14 Yes. So again, so there's the justification.
These are moralistic exhortations. Well, why should I do this? Because these good things will happen to you.

Speaker 14 So again, this is why we're kind of on the liminal edge of law and morality. But again, there's been so much debate on what does that exactly mean to honor your mother and your father?

Speaker 14 Does that just mean listen to them when they tell you not to do something? Sure. But how is that going to prolong your life on the land?

Speaker 14 And scholars have gone into depth on that, that verb to honor, what it might mean.

Speaker 14 And some think it might actually mean look after them in old age and maybe based on some parallels with near eastern texts observe the ancestral rights that you do that you owe to them once once they're no longer here and by doing that that way with their blessings you'll you'll endure long on the land even after you're gone too because hopefully your children will also honor you it's a bit of a memory thing as well it's a memory thing and also we're in a world where there is no social security.

Speaker 14 So to secure yourself in old age, you really are highly dependent on your children, that you're entirely dependent on them.

Speaker 1 On to the next one, and this is perhaps the shortest one or one of the shortest ones. It's either number six or number seven, depending on how you read it.
You probably know which one it is.

Speaker 1 It's quite a, it's a classic one, I think.

Speaker 14 Yeah, thou shalt not kill.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah, it says thou shalt not murder here. Murder, okay.
It's interesting. Like,

Speaker 1 is there a bit of debate about the wording of that one?

Speaker 14 I think for sure. I mean, there's no shortage of killing words in Hebrew.
In fact, they have quite a few. And

Speaker 14 it's difficult because we're not really in a world where there's a clear criminal justice system. So what's the difference between killing in general and murder?

Speaker 14 It doesn't say anything about premeditation in this law. So that's a decision based on the translator there.

Speaker 14 And it's a decision that's well-founded because, of course, you're absolutely allowed to kill in this world.

Speaker 14 Armies, In fact, not shortly long after this law is given, were told to, you know, put to death soothsayers and diviners and a whole, there's a whole category of people who are, who are explicitly sentenced to death.

Speaker 14 So it can't possibly simply say don't kill because there's too many contradictions to that basic tenet. So maybe it's a certain type of killing, but the evidence doesn't really play out.

Speaker 14 If you go and track down that verb, there's legitimate versions of it. There's illegitimate versions of it.

Speaker 14 So we're just left grasping at straws as usual with, well, what is the actual meaning behind it? And so you can take that in many different ways

Speaker 14 in both translation, but also especially if you're an adherent to these texts, what does that actually mean in terms of how you live your life?

Speaker 1 Because these are certainly the more the more blunt and the shorter commandments on the list, aren't they? Because straight away after this, you have the, you shall not commit adultery.

Speaker 1 You shall not steal. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbors.
That's three more there we have straight away.

Speaker 14 Yeah. And the formulation is very distinctive from what's surrounding it.
What's surrounding it, they're much longer, and they often have explanations for why you should.

Speaker 14 These are simply prescribing you don't do it. And what's interesting, they're not even imperatives in the sense of it's not don't kill, it's you will not kill.

Speaker 14 And

Speaker 14 that's grammatically interesting and also reflects on, well, what does that mean in terms of how this message is being conveyed? It's not a command.

Speaker 14 It's maybe expressing a wish, which is very different.

Speaker 1 And then the others as well, committing adultery, not stealing. And then the last one, you shall not covet your neighbor's house.

Speaker 1 You shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. Just stay off what belongs to your neighbor, his property, I guess.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 14 And this is even more difficult because all of the other prohibitions prohibit actions. This is something internal.

Speaker 1 Don't covet.

Speaker 14 The verb is chamad, actually the same root from which the name Muhammad comes from, to covet, to prize something. So how are you actually supposed to follow that commandment?

Speaker 14 Don't wish you had the same car as your neighbor. Are you violating that commandment by even feeling that emotion? But how are you supposed to not feel emotions?

Speaker 14 And why is that supposed to be prohibited? So this has also generated a whole slew of scholarship, both in theological settings, in ethics,

Speaker 14 and in historical critical study. And we don't have an answer to give you a clear indication of, well, what are they actually trying to prohibit there?

Speaker 14 But it does seem to be something very internalized in the individual.

Speaker 1 It's also interesting here in how it's structured. It is very patriarchal and it's well, in its outlook, isn't it? Like you shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

Speaker 1 And it's very much like a man-to-man kind of thing. And the woman's got no say in this whatsoever.
So we should probably highlight that as well.

Speaker 14 Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's the basic supposition of this entire world is that we are in more or less patrimonial patriarchal society.

Speaker 14 Now, that doesn't mean patriarchy in the sense of strict, almost abusive treatment of women.

Speaker 14 Women had agency in this world, but the basic supposition about how you describe, let's say, the family unit is it's the house of the father. Within it is a house of the mother.

Speaker 14 The mother does have agency. And in fact, we have plenty of biblical texts that talk about it.

Speaker 14 But certainly when we're thinking of the family, it's a patriarchal unit and the family is a closed system, as a closed social system is defined by male male lineages well that's the biblical narrative in exodus and that's the list of 10 or 11 or how many you want to to define as the commandment so it's nice to set that out straight away you did mention how it's also relayed in deuteronomy which is is it the next book after exodus or a couple after or it's a couple after a couple after yeah so we have genesis exodus Leviticus, Numbers, and then Deuteronomy.

Speaker 14 And Deuteronomy is an interesting book if you've never read it, because Deuteronomy is, as in the Greek, Deuteronomos. It's the second law.

Speaker 14 It's the second time law is being given, this time not at Mount Sinai, but rather on the plains of Moab, overlooking the promised land, which Moses will famously not enter.

Speaker 14 So it's set in a different context. The desert wanderings are just about to end.
They're about to cross the Jordan, which is in many respects kind of a parallel to the Red Sea.

Speaker 1 So they've been wandering the desert for four whole books. Is that the idea?

Speaker 14 Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. A lot of things happen.

Speaker 14 But essentially, the Exodus generation has all died off, with the exception of Moses. So this is the generation that never experienced that.
Remember, that's important.

Speaker 14 It's why you remember the Sabbath day.

Speaker 14 And so this is a whole new generation. This is the generation that would be

Speaker 14 the ones who conquer the land from the Canaanites. And they're delivered a second set of laws, which begins with the Ten Commandments, just as the first set had begun.

Speaker 14 And from, I should qualify, the first set of laws that we encounter in Exodus, which you follow immediately after the Ten Commandments, are what is known as the Covenant Code.

Speaker 14 So it's framed in terms of this covenant, which is just a way of saying kind of a treaty or a contract between this God, Yahweh, and his people, Israel.

Speaker 14 So we get a second covenant, which actually repeats quite a few of the laws from the first one. This is the Deuteronomic law.
We weren't very creative in naming this one.

Speaker 14 It also calls itself a covenant. It also begins with the Ten Commandments in slightly modified form, as we've already mentioned.

Speaker 14 But in fact, it actually contradicts some points in Exodus, none more prominent than the fact that they are really promoting cult centralization in Deuteronomy.

Speaker 14 There's only one place to worship Yahweh. They don't say Jerusalem, but everyone knows that's what they're intending.

Speaker 1 So if those are the two areas where we really have the Ten Commandments, but are there any other times in the Bible, in the Old Testament Testament or New, where the words Ten Commandments rear their head again?

Speaker 14 Yes, but I can't remember the citations.

Speaker 14 I know they do come up. They are mentioned a couple more times, but the specific references escape me.
If you have a good concordance, you can go look it up. So they are remembered.

Speaker 14 They're old in their foundational texts, absolutely. So this is that layer of biblical writing that we feel.
pretty confident in terms of where where it dates relative to other pieces of the Bible.

Speaker 1 But you can imagine like the apostles or those early Christian followers being taught the story of the Ten Commandments many, many centuries later.

Speaker 1 And when they're spreading the word, I mean, this is part of what they're spreading as well.

Speaker 14 Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah. And interpreting it, because as we already outlined, what does it mean to honor your father and your mother?

Speaker 14 Well, in Second Temple Judaism, they probably had similar questions, right? So I think that's part of the dynamic of, yeah, evangelizing the word as well. Can we talk about the number 10?

Speaker 1 I mean, do we have any idea why they would have chosen 10 for the list of commandments, that round number?

Speaker 14 It's actually quite strange because we have a lot of sacred numbers in the Bible. The number three is quite sacred.
Seven, obviously. I mean, it's days of the week, the Sabbath.

Speaker 1 Three, you think of the Trinity, don't you?

Speaker 14 The Trinity, yes, but we're pre-Trinity. So in this context, three is associated often with divine messengers.
But seven is really the really sacred number.

Speaker 14 I mean, it lends itself to a verb which means to swear an oath, of course, creation of the world in seven days. And this is not exclusive to ancient Israel either.

Speaker 14 The sacredness of seven is quite common. Mesopotamia, six is quite important.
They have a sexagesimal mathematical system. That's why we have 365 days.
We have 360 degrees in a circle.

Speaker 14 Why seconds are 60. So the interesting thing is we have all these sacred numbers, and 10 is not usually one of them.
Obviously, we're a decimal-based society.

Speaker 14 So we think of 10 as an obvious number, but it's less obvious than you would think.

Speaker 14 There are obvious parallels in Egyptian culture and Mesopotamian culture where there are decades and 10 sets of 10 deities.

Speaker 14 But again, if we just start looking for numbers, it kind of becomes a bit of an obsession. We start to see numbers everywhere and everything adds up to 10.

Speaker 14 So off the top of my head, no, I can't point to anything super specific unless you know something.

Speaker 1 No, I can't. No, I was just thinking that.

Speaker 1 I wanted to ask because, you know it's the number that you always say it's the ten commandments and but you mentioned egyptian there in passing so actually let's use that to now talk about more about the context of when they're writing the stories right of moses the ten commandments and then deuteronomy so if that's supposed to be set in the second millennium bc is that the idea round like that

Speaker 1 when do we think i mean what are the theories as to when the people are actually writing down the texts in Exodus and Deuteronomy because it's not a a straight line that Genesis is the oldest and then Nexus and then Deuteronomy follows and so on.

Speaker 14 Right. So I think it's fairly conventional knowledge among biblical scholars.
And there's always naysayers, but generally we assume Exodus is the older and that Deuteronomy is based on Exodus.

Speaker 14 And there's pretty good reasons to think that. And based on other associations, we think the core of Deuteronomy, which would include the Ten Commandments, dates somewhere in the late 7th century.

Speaker 14 So that's a terminus antequem. So sometime before that, we have the composition of the Ten Commandments.

Speaker 1 So this is just before

Speaker 1 Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians sack Jerusalem.

Speaker 14 So it's right as Assyria is on its way out and Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians are on their way in. That's Deuteronomy.
So sometime before that is when we think of

Speaker 14 these parts of Exodus, not all of Exodus, but these parts of Exodus.

Speaker 14 Okay, so then that gives us basically a couple hundred years, maybe 300 years before Hebrew doesn't exist, because our earliest Hebrew texts date to about, we say, the 9th century, beginning of the 9th century.

Speaker 14 Before then, we don't even have Hebrew. Our earliest reference to a God named Yahweh is around 850.

Speaker 14 So most scholars tend to think if the Ten Commandments are being written, they're somewhere in this sweet spot between, let's be generous here, let's say 950, and that's being very generous, 950.

Speaker 14 and 650 somewhere in there would be a logical place to put this composition being written. And that's that's the date I would also assume somewhere in there.

Speaker 14 Now, if it were 950, we'd expect some older features, probably.

Speaker 14 We get this with archaic poetry. We don't get this with the Ten Commandments.
It's pretty standard Hebrew. So

Speaker 1 do you mean if so if it was older, there would be more kind of clear evidence of kind of

Speaker 1 rhyming or poetry within the writing of the Ten Commandments itself? Is that what you mean?

Speaker 14 I mean more in the fact that the Hebrew language evolved. Imagine reading the Canterbury Tales.
You know it's old, but you know it's English, right? So it's something like that.

Speaker 14 And we're not quite as far separated in time, but a couple hundred years is enough, especially in antiquity, for the language to have changed substantially.

Speaker 14 So we can usually tell, at least it's a good hint that something's older. Now, that doesn't help us if they're updating the text, but you're not supposed to.
It's writing of God.

Speaker 14 You shouldn't be correcting his grammar, really. So that's our best supposition, somewhere between 9th, 7th centuries when this text is first written, written,

Speaker 14 which actually makes sense for a lot of other things, which is it's at this time that all of these languages start to be written

Speaker 14 in and around the Levant, not just in Israel and Judah.

Speaker 1 Is that context really important for then understanding what the Ten Commandments are actually supposed to be?

Speaker 1 Because what is happening in that area of the world in the early to mid first millennium BC?

Speaker 14 Yes, context is absolutely important because this is the time period when we have the proliferation of alphabetic writing, not just in the Levant.

Speaker 14 We have Aramaic being written alphabetically, Phoenician is being written alphabetically, Hebrew appears on scene, many dialects up north.

Speaker 14 And then of course, at some point, it gets transferred westward. We have our first Greek inscriptions.
So literacy is emerging at this moment.

Speaker 14 And for various reasons, we actually think it might be tied to something like the Ten Commandments, because right at this moment, between the 9th, 8th, 7th centuries, we have the proliferation of monuments, really, the only things that are preserved to us from this time period, because everything else is written on perishable materials like papyrus and vellum and those kinds of materials.

Speaker 14 So we have monumental inscriptions in languages like Hebrew that start to tell us, okay, there's some serious levels of literacy going on at this moment.

Speaker 14 And what's particularly interesting is that some of these inscriptions look a lot like the Ten Commandments.

Speaker 14 Not in the sense that they're 10 words prescribing rules, but in the way they begin, which is, I am so-and-so, and here's all the things I expect of you.

Speaker 1 So does that give us any insight into how far and wide these Ten Commandments were supposed to be followed?

Speaker 1 Was it the case that this was a legal code or like an actual constitution for the people, or more of a list of you shouldn't do that, don't do this, this is what you should follow?

Speaker 14 It's far too short to be anything approaching a constitution.

Speaker 14 It's just 10 generic rules that barely cover half of the things you probably want to observe if you're even approaching a moral individual. So it can't be that.

Speaker 14 So it must be trying to achieve something else.

Speaker 14 And this is where I turn actually to the narrative a little bit and think in terms of the fact that not only are these attributed to God, that these are writings of God himself, the only real writings of God himself, that they're written on stone tablets.

Speaker 14 So they're in a sense monumental. They're not written on papyrus.
They're not written on scrolls.

Speaker 14 And if this is the kind of thing that's going on, and I have to attribute this to a scholar named Timothy Hoag, who noticed that right at this time, we start to encounter what are called I am monuments.

Speaker 14 So at some level, the text is trying to present itself as a monumental text that's actually embedded in biblical scrolls.

Speaker 14 And it's very successful because it defines itself materially as set off from what surrounds it.

Speaker 14 So the Ten Commandments, paradoxically, we know them only through the narrative, but they exist apart from the narrative, we know, because they're on tablets that are placed in the Ark of the Covenant.

Speaker 14 So they present themselves as something separate, something unique, something, say, discrete from the narrative, unlike everything else. Everything else occurs in the context of the narrative.

Speaker 14 So this is really where cutting-edge research on the Ten Commandments is starting to turn that, that they are these things that are separable.

Speaker 14 that are aligned with the types of monumental inscriptions that are being put up all over the Levant at around the 8th century BCE. And we find them in and around Israel.

Speaker 1 So what examples are these?

Speaker 14 So we have probably the most famous example from the immediate vicinity is something called the Mesha inscription of the Moab.

Speaker 14 Yes, so this inscription begins, much like the Ten Commandments, I am Yahweh, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Speaker 14 It begins, I am Mesha, king of Debon, who did all these great things, talking about conquests.

Speaker 14 It doesn't have any specific prescriptions for the people of Moab, but again, that concerns more the content, but it's the framing that the way that it introduces itself is, look, this is a monumental royal inscription.

Speaker 14 And the scholar, Timothy Hoag, makes this case in his book. Look, the Ten Commandments are trying to emulate that style, to say this is a monumental text within the narrative.

Speaker 14 And so there's that inscription, but we actually get well over 90 further north in the Levant.

Speaker 14 And it's pretty clear that this is connected to the spread of alphabetic literacy in the whole region, that these texts are how people encountered writing.

Speaker 14 And so it sets the Decalogue of the Ten Commandments as really important in the biblical imagination.

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Speaker 1 So, how would the laws have been passed down through generations at that time? So, there's the creation of

Speaker 1 these stone slabs to be put in the Ark of the Covenant. Right.
But then, of course, you want to share these, you know, these commandments far and wide to the population. Do we know much about that?

Speaker 14 Well, again, we're presuming that they want to share these commandments far and wide to the population.

Speaker 14 And this is actually a fundamental debate within among scholars who deal with law and morality, especially written law and written morality in ancient Israel.

Speaker 14 We don't really know how widely these texts were distributed. Even ones, let's say like the Code of Hammurabi, to use a Mesopotamian example, 282 laws inscribed on a stone,

Speaker 14 in theory, accessible. In practice, highly inaccessible.
Number one, very difficult to read. Now, the Ten Commandments, you could read.
They're quite simple. They're written in alphabetic texts.

Speaker 14 It doesn't take as much much training to read in an alphabetic text. But again, where are they placed? Are they placed in a temple where you don't have everyday access to?

Speaker 14 That's where the code of Hammurabi was. It was very restricted in terms of access.
So this gets us to, I think, a level of understanding and knowledge that we may never actually be able to access.

Speaker 14 So if not that, then... the only other option would be orally, that people would pass this down orally.

Speaker 14 And there are scholars who think that the Ten Commandments are just short enough to be memorized, repeated, and passed down from one generation to the next. So it's entirely possible.

Speaker 14 We now know the incredible capability of the human mind to store pretty substantial pieces of information and pass that down orally. So absolutely, that's a possibility.

Speaker 14 Now, between Exodus and Deuteronomy, they're dealing with texts. 100%, that they're reading each other's texts.
So all of these potentialities are at play with the Decalogue.

Speaker 1 And so do we think you mentioned in passing there, Hammurabi and his law code, also the Assyrians earlier with the 7th century BC date, or somewhere around there for the Ten Commandments, with the law codes and the great carved stones with writing from like Mesopotamian civilizations and the Hittites and of course Egypt as well, do you think there is an influence from these other

Speaker 1 Bronze Age societies and early Iron Age societies? in the creation of the story of the Ten Commandments?

Speaker 14 In the story, yes. I'm always hesitant to posit direct contact between specific texts, but in terms of speaking in generalizations, let's start with Mesopotamia and the Code of Hammurabi.

Speaker 14 So long list-like collections of laws had been a component of Near Eastern scribalism for a millennia by the time we think these texts are being written. So absolutely.

Speaker 14 And that doesn't necessarily even have to come from the legal tradition. It could come from what we call the wisdom tradition, long lists of ethical behaviors.

Speaker 14 We have a book called Proverbs that has really long lists of ethical prohibitions too. And the Decalogue sits somewhere right on that line between law and ethics.

Speaker 14 So either one could have been the influence.

Speaker 14 And that, I think that's beyond a doubt, that they're tapping into that tradition of creating these long lists, what one serialist called list science, really, that to help understand the world in which they lived, they really were list makers.

Speaker 14 So there's that on the one hand, but more specifically, if we look broader into the narrative, that this is really the opening salvo of what is the covenant between Israel and their God.

Speaker 14 I think that has more meaningful connections to the East in the form of suzerainty or vassal treaties with the Assyrian Empire. Now,

Speaker 14 these are old. They show up, you know, 9th century, even into the late Bronze Age when we talk about the Hittites.

Speaker 14 The Hittites also had vassal treaties with territories that were under their control, but still had kings. And basically, these vassal treaties are contracts between kings.

Speaker 14 If they're equals, it's a parity treaty. I'll come to your aid, you come to my aid, and we'll trade some lumber and gold.
Or they're vassal treaties. I won't destroy you if you pay taxes, right?

Speaker 14 And so within the context where the Decalogue is embedded in the covenant code and in the book of Deuteronomy, scholars tend to think that these broader textual units are based on these kinds of treaties.

Speaker 14 And this is really important considering the materiality of the Ten Commandments, because we know these treaties were were written down and transmitted to territories far to the west and far to the east of the Assyrian Empire.

Speaker 14 And remember, Judah and Israel were both conquered by the Assyrian Empire.

Speaker 14 And up to a certain point, we always thought most of the ties were fairly generic until scholars found a Esar Haddon, who's an important Assyrian king, vassal treaty in a western territory in a temple.

Speaker 14 in the Holy of Holies of the temple. Maybe this is starting to ring alarm bells.
This is exactly where the Ten Commandments would have have been housed, according to tradition.

Speaker 14 So maybe they're emulating that treatment of these really important legal texts in sacred precincts.

Speaker 14 And in fact, some scholars argue that even in the formulation of parts of Deuteronomy, especially curses, we have direct parallels in the vassal treaties of the Assyrian Empire specifically. So

Speaker 14 it's possible. People have also pushed back pretty hard saying, yes, but we're just overemphasizing the Assyrian treaties.
We also have Aramean treaties that look just as much like the biblical texts.

Speaker 14 So maybe what we actually have aren't direct connections between Assyria and Judah and Israel, but more treaty language that's showing up in biblical texts.

Speaker 14 And everyone is participating in this treaty language.

Speaker 1 It makes me think of the, you know, you must not break your oath one, right? You know, that's importance in these

Speaker 1 empires and the client states that they have. You know, you've entered into an agreement.
If you break it, you know, we'll come down on you with all the force idea, isn't it?

Speaker 14 And the one point to emphasize here is that unlike all of these other treaties, which are between kings, this is between a God and his people, which is fundamentally different.

Speaker 14 And what's most important and what I've spent time writing on is that at all levels of the biblical tradition of law and their vision of law, the human king has been written out.

Speaker 14 There is no place for him. When the covenant, when the contract between Yahweh and Israel is forged via Moses, who is very explicitly never called a king.
He's called almost everything else.

Speaker 14 He's a war leader. He's a prophet.
He's a priest.

Speaker 14 He's everything. He's essentially a king without being called a king, but I think it's very intentional that they don't call him the king because they don't want this intermediary.

Speaker 14 The relationship between God and the people is direct. And that really sets up the distinction with these other Near Eastern literary traditions.

Speaker 1 Do you think this is actually also the Ten Commandment story, the people who are writing it, who are creating it, they're also doing it to show that their unique identity in contrast to all these other great powers that there are in the world at that time which are ruled by kings in this story where it's you know the the word of god is passed this important figure who as you say is clearly labeled not as a king

Speaker 1 it just it shows their unique identity and and the specialness i guess in that what they were thinking of who they were I absolutely think they're doing that because in chapter four of Deuteronomy, that's exactly what they say.

Speaker 14 They say, look at us. We are a wise and understanding people because of our proximity to our God.
We are distinct among the nations.

Speaker 14 And then in places where they actually do talk about the advent of kingship in Israel, it's a bad idea because it makes them like the nations all around.

Speaker 14 So the distinctiveness of this relationship, which may have started with the Ten Commandments, we don't know.

Speaker 14 But at some point in time, they decided to make Yahweh the true king of Israel with no place for the human king. Then at that moment, all other legal traditions fell in line.

Speaker 14 I mean, Deuteronomy, there's no king. Well, there is a king who is supposed to just read the Torah under supervision of priests, by the way.

Speaker 14 So I think this is really critical with the Decalogue, because at some level there, they're emulating royal inscriptions from the Levant. I am King so-and-so.
It's not a king, it's Yahweh.

Speaker 14 I am Yahweh. So Yahweh is assuming a lot of royal prerogatives in this very short text.

Speaker 1 I am Ashubanapal, king of the world, king of of Assyria, and stuff like that.

Speaker 14 Exactly.

Speaker 1 Big question next, Dylan. Archaeological evidence.
I remember asking this one for the Ark of the Covenant as well that we've done in the past.

Speaker 1 Is there any archaeological evidence for the Ten Commandments?

Speaker 14 It's the same archaeological evidence as the Ark of the Covenant because they were in it. So if we find the Ark, then maybe we'll find the tablets.
So obviously, no.

Speaker 14 direct evidence of the Ten Commandments, the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments, they're not going to be found. But

Speaker 14 that's the needle in the haystack the the million dollar find what what we wit what we do find is exactly what i've been talking about examples of texts that look like the ten commandments these monumental inscriptions in languages that are very closely related to hebrew that begin i am so-and-so this is a great insight it tells us that that this text is trying to emulate monumental royal inscriptions the suzerainty treaties of isar hadn and and various other ashurbanipal and various other assyrian kings tells us a little bit about well, why have this legal text in the inner sanctuary of a temple?

Speaker 14 So all of these indirect comparisons that archaeology tells us actually helps us understand the Ten Commandments a lot better, which, you know, in lieu of finding them, is pretty good.

Speaker 1 Is it also quite interesting that I kind of also, I guess that was probably going to be the answer. Otherwise, I feel they would probably be better known, although it'd be talked about a lot today.

Speaker 1 But is it also interesting, going back to the wording of the Ten Commandments, that, you know, other words you normally associate with with religions particularly more than 2 000 years ago

Speaker 1 sacrifices priesthood purity

Speaker 14 it doesn't feel like any of those things are really focused on in the ten commandments is that pretty interesting yeah i think it's it's a it's a dynamic of religion that is in many ways very different from what we typically find.

Speaker 14 Exactly, as you said, the usual descriptions of, and we have plenty of, you know,

Speaker 14 ritual manuals, instructions to ritual specialists, instructions to priests. I mean, the entire book of Leviticus and half of Numbers, that's what it is.

Speaker 14 So we know what we can expect when we see these kinds of

Speaker 14 religious instructions. So to find these, they fit into some other genre.
It's not just about religion. It's about this specific relationship.
And I think it's covenant. genre.

Speaker 14 It's talking about the relationship between Israel and Yahweh, not just in the confines of what's going on in a temple, but on the individual level, right? Don't covet your neighbor's wife.

Speaker 14 That's speaking to an individual. That's not speaking to a religious elite.
That's not speaking to the Israelites in general. This is speaking to the individual.

Speaker 14 So there is this individualization that's very unique with this text, which I don't know parallels to, perhaps in some wisdom. traditions in Egypt or Babylon.

Speaker 1 Which surely makes you feel that these commandments must have been spread far and wide when they were created, because they do do seem to you know touch on the everyday person who is living in these societies i know you say we we can't know but but surely that must be you know a very plausible idea that either through oral tradition or maybe there were mini tablets of ten commandments or something like that i don't want to say too much obviously i don't know but some way that these laws would have been passed to everyday people within these within the kingdom right at that time yeah yeah i mean it's absolutely possible and we have evidence of biblical texts being preserved on smaller scroll amulet and things.

Speaker 14 So

Speaker 14 the possibilities are endless and the texts do make it to us. It still leaves us with a question of, well, in what form?

Speaker 14 And was it all 10?

Speaker 14 Could it not have existed as simple aphorisms,

Speaker 14 all separate and then brought together into one? So you see, why these 10? Why in this order? Why in this particular format? Why do those ones in the middle look so different?

Speaker 14 You will not kill from the ones that are all around it?

Speaker 14 Does that maybe imply that, well, maybe those four, five floated as a unit together because they were very short, very pithy, very memorable, as opposed to clearly the Sabbath rule, that's not even remembered the same between Exodus and Deuteronomy.

Speaker 14 So you see, we get into the slippage there of did they know the Ten Commandments, which version?

Speaker 14 And I haven't even talked about the fact that we have another manuscript tradition from another important Jewish community known as the Samaritans who add

Speaker 14 another commandment. They had another one.
They had another one at the end. And it's talking about setting up stones on Mount Gerizim.
No other tradition preserves this.

Speaker 14 This is because this is the holy mountain recognized by the Samaritan community. So in their Pentateuch, which is,

Speaker 14 well, we're not exactly sure.

Speaker 14 We're reliant on medieval manuscripts for the most part, but probably traces back to an ancient manuscript tradition that ran alongside the ones we know today as the Bible.

Speaker 14 They have a different Ten Commandments.

Speaker 14 they have an entirely different rule so what if every single community had their own ten commandments and what would that formulation look like so they had the basis of the ten commandments but might have added a couple on to supp for their particular group i guess just as the samaritans did right just as the samaritans did so you see where i'm going with this to say the ten commandments i think we should be talking about various formulations and various sets because we we we have the manuscript evidence that there were different formulations of this singular text The commandments.

Speaker 14 The commandments, exactly.

Speaker 1 And so how long is it before we actually do have evidence of these commandments written down that have survived to us today?

Speaker 14 Yeah. So the oldest is, of course, going to be the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, what's known as the Septuagint, which is in the third century BCE.
Alexandria. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 14 So these are the oldest. manuscript traditions.
So it's set by that point, which we would have known. We think these texts are much, much older than that.

Speaker 14 In Hebrew, the oldest would be the Dead Sea Scrolls, copies of Exodus, copies of Deuteronomy, which again doesn't really tell us much with texts this old.

Speaker 14 So it at least puts our manuscript traditions there. But again, we have references in other texts to the Ten Commandments.

Speaker 14 So we kind of anticipated to find them more or less the same, which is exactly what we find.

Speaker 1 I wish I could ask so many more questions, but I'll ask a big encompassing legacy question to end it all off.

Speaker 1 How important do you think the Ten Commandments have been, like their legacy for people down through the centuries?

Speaker 14 I think incredibly important to return to that point I made earlier.

Speaker 14 I mean, we're seeing in the United States debates about placing these monuments as monuments in front of places of worship, in front of places of education, in front of places of lawmaking, because they're symbols of a an identity that people are laying claim to, sometimes called the Abrahamic Judeo-Christian identity.

Speaker 14 Now, oftentimes, these identities are for exclusion, but again, it just goes to show how potent the symbol of the Decalogue is for staking out a claim, just as it probably was designed in antiquity to lay out this claim of this unique relationship between you as an Israelite or you as a Yahweh worshiper.

Speaker 14 So, the lasting legacy is amazing. And also, Hollywood, Herman Melville, Charleston Heston, bringing the Ten Commandments down too.
So,

Speaker 14 it's a legacy, a great legacy. legacy.

Speaker 1 Is there a fear that these commandments have been rewritten time and time again throughout history to suit

Speaker 1 the context of the world we live in?

Speaker 14 Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 14 Because

Speaker 14 their meaning is hard to grasp.

Speaker 1 Because it certainly feels like they're evolving. I mean, if you look at the original wording that we talked about earlier, like with your ox and

Speaker 1 stuff like that, your possessions and things that, you know, not everyone has an ox today and stuff like that, right?

Speaker 1 So like, surely there is the danger of them being translated or as they evolve down problematic paths, I guess.

Speaker 14 Absolutely. Let's take the big one, you will not kill.

Speaker 14 That has been used from extreme pacifist movements. That's why certain denominations of religious communities in the United States won't serve in militaries.

Speaker 14 It's also been used by anti-abortionist campaigns to kill people.

Speaker 14 So thou shalt not kill, you will not kill is just right on that precipice of interpretive malleability to justify or prohibit all range of actions, including killing.

Speaker 14 So yeah, it's very much in the eye of the beholder how we use these texts.

Speaker 1 Dylan, this has been absolutely fascinating.

Speaker 1 Is there anything else you'd like to mention about the Ten Commandments and your work around them and their importance that you'd like to highlight before we finish?

Speaker 14 I think we've covered the main points. Always fun to just go read the text yourselves.
Compare and contrast. Look at Deuteronomy and Exodus.
They are a bit different.

Speaker 14 So yeah, always encouraging reading, I suppose.

Speaker 1 Dylan, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the show.

Speaker 14 It's been great. Thank you.

Speaker 14 Well, there you go.

Speaker 1 There was the fantastic Dr. Dylan Johnson returning to the podcast to talk through the story of the Ten Commandments.

Speaker 1 I hope you enjoyed the episode, an episode that you can also watch on the Ancients YouTube channel.

Speaker 1 And don't you worry, Dylan will be back for another episode in the new year very excited to share that one with you too but in the meantime thank you for listening to this episode of the ancients please follow the show on spotify or wherever you get to your podcasts that really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor if you'd be kind enough to leave us a rating as well well we'd really appreciate that don't forget you can also sign up to history hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week sign up at history hit.com slash subscribe that's all from me i'll see you in the next episode.

Speaker 2 Hi folks, it's Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman.

Speaker 3 Whole Foods Market is your holiday headquarters with everything you need whether you're a guest or hosting the big dinner with show-stopping centerpiece mains like bone-in spiral cut ham or bone-in rib roast or even king crab.

Speaker 8 And if you want to take a few shortcuts, no one is looking after all, try the heat-neat sides from the prepared foods department.

Speaker 13 Shop for everything you need at Whole Foods Market, your holiday headquarters.

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