Martin Sheen is the Most Presidential Man in the Room

Transcript

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Speaker 13 You know, we kind of crawled out of the 60s. We lost Reverend King, we lost John Kennedy, his brother, Robert, we lost Medgar Evers, we lost Malcolm X, we lost all the heroes and the martyrs.

Speaker 13 But we came out

Speaker 13 absolutely dedicated to serving lost causes.

Speaker 13 Lost causes are the only causes we're fighting for.

Speaker 14 Hi everyone and welcome to the Best People podcast. This past weekend was such a blast.

Speaker 14 I had the chance to sit down with Emmy and Golden Globe winning actor Martin Sheen at our annual fan event, MSNBC Live 25.

Speaker 14 Martin's career has spanned nearly 70 years in movies and series that have defined our times.

Speaker 14 Martin and I spoke in front of a live audience in New York City about everything from his extraordinary career to his lifelong activism, what he's hopeful about, and a very special call to action for decency and keeping the faith in these times.

Speaker 14 So this is the best people and this is Martin Sheen.

Speaker 14 Hi guys!

Speaker 14 Wow!

Speaker 14 This is amazing, right?

Speaker 14 Wow.

Speaker 13 It's amazing that you're all here.

Speaker 14 I barely walked the dog today and you are all here in the rain. I'm aware every day that we stand on your shoulders, the people who watch us, and so that you're here is huge.

Speaker 14 Thank you so, so, so much.

Speaker 14 We'll thank him properly in a second, so hold all that enthusiasm for one sec.

Speaker 14 The concept for adding to our offerings, the best people podcast, was rooted in having some of the greatest and smartest people in my life in your ears and in your living rooms.

Speaker 14 But the greatest of the great is someone we save for today's audience. Martin Sheen isn't just one of the best people that I know.
He's the best of the best.

Speaker 14 The professional achievements speak for themselves.

Speaker 14 An Emmy and Golden Globe winning actor whose career has spanned more than six decades from Badlands to Apocalypse Now, which is a story and a podcast in and of itself, to the thing that pushed me into politics.

Speaker 14 I couldn't do anything else with my life after watching the West Wing week after week after week.

Speaker 14 His

Speaker 14 personal story is just as compelling and when you hear it, you'll say, well, of course it is. A son of immigrants, a lifelong believer and doer in non-violent civil disobedience.

Speaker 14 Martin has said that acting is what he does, but activism is what keeps him alive. As Aaron Sorkin said about you, I'm sure you know this already, the West Wing is a love letter to public service.

Speaker 14 Your portrayal of the best president, one of the best presidents we've ever known, Jeff Bartlett,

Speaker 14 is something that moves me to tears every time I see it. Here's a little bit of it.

Speaker 13 We hold these truths to be self-evident, they said.

Speaker 13 that all men are created equal. Strange as it may seem, that was the first time in history that anyone had ever bothered to to write that down.
I am the Lord your God.

Speaker 13 Thou shalt worship no other God before me.

Speaker 13 Boy, those were the days, huh? We are not going to be these people, Abby. I'm not going to do it.
I'll walk up to the hill right now, and I will give the Speaker of the House my resignation.

Speaker 13 The House isn't in session. You want to see me get on the phone and put it in session?

Speaker 13 If fidelity to freedom and democracy is the code of our civic religion, then surely the code of our humanity is faithful service to that unwritten commandment that says we shall give our children better than than we ourselves receive.

Speaker 13 One last thing:

Speaker 13 while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the ignorant tight ass club, in this building, when the president stands, nobody sits.

Speaker 13 I get you.

Speaker 13 Martin Sheen.

Speaker 14 So.

Speaker 13 Who was that guy?

Speaker 14 Oh, we miss him. Thank you for being here.
Thank you for being a guest on the Best People podcast. And thank you for being here with the most important people in our MSNBC family.

Speaker 13 Thank you very much. I'm delighted.

Speaker 14 I think that one of the stories I wanted to ask you to tell is we're joined together right through the airwaves and now, lucky for me, also through the podcast waves.

Speaker 14 But we're in a physical place, and that's such a big deal. For people to come here, it's such a big deal.
And

Speaker 14 one of your first acts of bringing people together for justice happened here in Times Square.

Speaker 14 Will you tell us that story about bringing together Barbara Streisand and Sammy Davis and almost meeting Martin Luther King?

Speaker 13 All right. Well, I was on Broadway in a three-character play called The Subject Was Roses,

Speaker 13 and we were playing. Okay, thank you.

Speaker 13 Most of the people that saw it are dead by now, but I'm glad that some of you have survived.

Speaker 13 Thank you.

Speaker 13 So

Speaker 13 we started at the Royal Theater and we moved to the, what was called at that time the Little Theater off Times Square.

Speaker 13 It was at 43rd Street near 8th Avenue and it was called the Winthrough Ames and it had a 600-seat house.

Speaker 13 And we were the really the only drama on Broadway and we were doing very, very well, thank heaven. And so the night of March 7th, 1965,

Speaker 13 Selma

Speaker 13 happened and the attack at the Pettus Bridge and the brutal assault on the peaceful protesters who were starting a march to Birmingham.

Speaker 13 And that Sunday night, it was all over the news, and we were just so

Speaker 13 devastated to see how far our racism had gone.

Speaker 13 And the next day, when I came in for the show, I asked my co-star, Jack Albertson, would you agree we should do a benefit for Reverend King's Southern Christian Leadership Conference and a young minister from Massachusetts who Reverend King had asked all the religions to send people to Selma to support the civil rights march.

Speaker 13 And this young man, this young minister came from Massachusetts and he was murdered the first night he arrived in Selma. His name was Reverend James Reeb.
So I told Jack, let's do this benefit.

Speaker 13 We'll give the funds to the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Reverend King's Organization, and the family of Reverend James Reeve.

Speaker 13 And he said, well, it's a good idea, but we won't make enough. We're only 600 people.
By the time we pay for the electricity alone, we won't have any dough to share.

Speaker 13 I agreed, and I said, well, is it possible we could get all the shows on Broadway to answer Selma? He said, that's a good idea.

Speaker 13 Let's go and see the only guy who could possibly make that happen on Broadway, Sammy Davis Jr., who was playing at that time

Speaker 13 at the music box in a hit show called Golden Boy.

Speaker 13 So the following Saturday, we went to his dressing room and between matinees and we waited and he received us and we told him our story that we believe that Broadway really has to step up and answer Selma.

Speaker 13 He listened and he thought it was a great idea and he said, the only thing I don't like about your idea is I didn't think of it. So

Speaker 13 before the evening was over, he had sent telegrams. Remember in those days there was no cell phones and it was hard to communicate with people, but telegrams were instant response.

Speaker 13 And so he sent telegrams to every show on Broadway, including Barbara Streisand, who was a huge hit at that time in Funny Girl. And Marie Chevalier was doing a one-man show on Broadway.

Speaker 13 And he said, everybody, send a representative to Sardi's that night, that same Saturday night, and we'll organize a committee for Broadway answering Selma. And that's what happened.

Speaker 13 So this committee was formed, and I believe it was less than four weeks later, we arrived. I arrived for rehearsal at the theater.

Speaker 13 We did it at the music box, and Ethel Merman was rehearsing with the orchestra, but I have no memory of her playing that night. I don't know what happened at rehearsal, but...

Speaker 13 And she didn't appear on the program. So if anybody knows what happened to Ethel Merman that night, please let us know.

Speaker 13 At any rate, we were doing a scene from the Sodoms Roses. It was taking about 12 minutes.
Stage manager said, okay, you guys will be in the second act. We said, oh, that's great.

Speaker 13 We'll be able to watch the first act. So the show began with Sammy Davis coming out on stage.
And he said, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Broadway Answer Selma.

Speaker 13 Oh, and by the way, please welcome Martin Luther King Jr. Nobody knew he was in the house

Speaker 13 and he was

Speaker 13 in the first box seat right here.

Speaker 13 he was that close and he stood up and he looked like he was surprised he he he kind of looked askance at Sammy you know how could you do this to me anyway he stood up and he took a brief bow and he sat back down the audience was not having it they were on their feet yelling bravo bravo and he stood up again and and took a short bow and no he sat down they were not having it they stood up a third time

Speaker 13 and he finally got up and he and he just held his heart and he bowed and then he beg everybody you know to sit down and start the show. And they did.
And the first show, as

Speaker 13 always does and benefits, it was a bit longer, so it went on for two hours. And meanwhile, we were waiting backstage, and the stage manager came and said, we're terribly sorry.

Speaker 13 We're going to have to cut your scene. It's just taking too long.

Speaker 13 I said, that's okay. Sammy came back and said, I'm really sorry we have to cut the scene, but we really are running late.
He said, but he looked at me and he said, could you help me out backstage?

Speaker 13 It's very dark back there. Some of the older folks are having trouble finding their seats in the dark before they go.
I said, I'd love to. So that's how I ended up backstage.
And Act Two started.

Speaker 13 Sammy was out dancing on the stage and singing a song.

Speaker 13 And I was backstage. Marie Chevalier came in, stumbling around, and I said, Over here, sir.
And I got him a chair and he's seated here. And the light

Speaker 13 that was lighting Sammy on stage was filtering backstage.

Speaker 13 And I felt a presence just here, maybe 10, 12 feet away. And I looked.

Speaker 13 Reverend King was standing there alone with his hands in his pocket, and he was just looking out on stage. My heart started to pound, and I thought, oh my God, get the blessing.

Speaker 13 And the other part of me said, no, no, no, don't bother him. He's late.
He's wanting to go home and so forth. He's just come to say goodnight to Sammy.
Leave the man alone. No, no, no.

Speaker 13 Get the blessing. Get the blessing.

Speaker 13 No, no, no. Don't trouble the man.
Look, he's tired. It's a late night.

Speaker 13 My God, he was, you know, here with us all night nobody even knew he was there and before i could make up my mind sammy came off stage and walked right up to him he knew he was there hugged him led him to the stage and the stage door and he left and i never saw him uh that was uh april 4th 1965

Speaker 13 exactly three years later he was slain in memphis I I never met him, but I told that story to Oprah Winfrey when I was playing the federal judge Johnson that heard the case that finally allowed the march to Birmingham to continue.

Speaker 13 And the name of that film is called Selma.

Speaker 14 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 14 I just wanted to put us all in a place together because

Speaker 14 I feel like one of the ways

Speaker 14 the good guys lose is if we don't see each other and feel connected. And you've always been a convener.
You've always stood by people doing the work. You didn't even get to meet your hero, right?

Speaker 14 But you put this night in motion.

Speaker 13 It's probably a better story that I didn't meet him. He'd probably still be there listening to me.

Speaker 13 I adored him. You know, we kind of crawled out of the 60s.

Speaker 13 We lost Reverend King, we lost John Kennedy, his brother, Robert, we lost Medgar Evers, we lost Malcolm X, we lost all the heroes and the martyrs.

Speaker 13 But we came out absolutely dedicated to serving lost causes.

Speaker 13 Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for.

Speaker 13 And

Speaker 13 And the only weapon to fight with is nonviolence. That's what we carried out of the very turbulent era.

Speaker 14 We'll take a quick break here. When we come back, much more of my conversation with award-winning actor Martin Sheen from MSNBC Live 25.
Stay with us.

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Speaker 14 I asked Joan Baez this question because she, if you haven't watched it, go watch her sing

Speaker 14 on the march at the march in Washington. I asked her about that day and about that moment, and she said,

Speaker 14 This is worse. And she said, Because we had each other, and we had

Speaker 14 Martin, we had the music, we had the culture, and we had each other, and we were physically together. She said, This feels worse.
Does this moment feel worse to you?

Speaker 13 It does because it's scarier.

Speaker 13 Actually, since 9-11, arrests on federal property can bring an automatic six months. So you have to be really, really careful.
And

Speaker 13 you have to go as a community. You can't go by yourself.

Speaker 13 Or if you want to go by yourself, create a community and take them with you because you have to demonstrate

Speaker 13 In many cases that one heart with courage is a majority because sometimes that's all you've got to go on is where you're led.

Speaker 13 But I'm convinced of this that those people in opposition to where we're at these days admire that kind of courage more than anything else.

Speaker 13 They can't show it, but they sure as hell admire it and it either brings their own humanity to the fore or their anger and their jealousy and they try to destroy it like that reverend who was standing with his arms out the other day and was obviously clearly not a threat to anyone who was praying in Chicago and the guy shot him in the head whoever shot him in the head with that missile

Speaker 13 has a real problem with his own humanity I think one of the reasons why so many of the soldiers and the ICE folks

Speaker 13 I think that they're covering their faces because

Speaker 13 they don't want to show their emotion.

Speaker 13 They don't want to show that they're not proud of what they're doing, particularly when they're dealing with mothers and children and undocumented people who are of no threat whatsoever.

Speaker 13 And they know that they're on.

Speaker 13 People are doing this because they want to be on the side that's winning.

Speaker 13 And,

Speaker 13 you know, it's not going to last. It cannot last.
It's the great lie. But there is a great hunger for truth.
And And

Speaker 13 it's a mighty battle going on. It's not about winning or losing.
It's about

Speaker 13 being in touch with your own personal humanity because there's such a lack of it coming from this administration. And I'm convinced of this.

Speaker 13 When you look at this group of people at the round table in the White House, the cabinet room.

Speaker 13 Every one of those people look across the table and they do not see anyone who is better than they are. They generally see a reflection of their worst selves.
So there's no heroes in there.

Speaker 13 There's no music. There's no laughter.
There's no self-effacement. There's no joy in that room.
It smells of ego

Speaker 13 and fear

Speaker 13 and false worship

Speaker 13 when we realize

Speaker 13 and this

Speaker 13 I'm going on in

Speaker 13 and you look in that room and there's a young man named Robert Francis Kennedy Jr.

Speaker 13 His father sat in that room in the ex-con committee in October 1963, 62 during the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, and he literally, with his brother John, rejected an attack on Cuba and basically saved the world from nuclear annihilation.

Speaker 13 And he did it,

Speaker 13 he did it because he was in touch with his humanity and he understood the enemy was also human. And if we don't find our own personal humanity, we cannot possibly find it or see it in each other.

Speaker 13 And so

Speaker 13 we have to look,

Speaker 13 you know,

Speaker 13 we have to start our own journey with realizing our true selves, and that takes a lot of work.

Speaker 13 But if we're lucky enough to surrender and accept the responsibility that we start as a nothing, basically,

Speaker 13 except our humanity, and then we realize, oh my God,

Speaker 13 being human is all we need. We're broken.
It's beautiful.

Speaker 13 brokenness because if you weren't broken nothing could get in to change you whether you believe in the one the other god it doesn't matter the spirit cannot get in you unless there's an entrance point.

Speaker 13 Our egos prevent it so often. But when you allow that to happen and you're vulnerable, then you begin to realize: oh, being broken is human.
It's blessed. It's beautiful.

Speaker 13 So I have it like there's BBB, that's a better business bureau. But if you apply it to your humanity, you're beautifully blessed and broken.
All of us are.

Speaker 13 So the big guy,

Speaker 13 the big guy in the White House, if he would take some personal advice, you've got to realize, sir, that you are the biggest nothing in the world.

Speaker 13 And, sir, you stop there. You stop listening to all these people around you, these sycophants,

Speaker 13 who are encouraging you to be your non-human self. Get in touch with that humanity.
Stop fussing with your hair. Don't worry about your tie.

Speaker 13 And stand up straight and speak clearly, not from your throat. Speak from your heart

Speaker 13 and start being human. That's what you were made for, not golf.

Speaker 13 So there you are, Mr. President, with all due respect, sir.

Speaker 13 I mean,

Speaker 14 one of the things that seems to cut through in this moment is humor.

Speaker 13 Yes.

Speaker 14 And one of the things that drives him crazy is being mocked.

Speaker 14 And so I noticed Governor Pritzker doing a spoof for Kimmel from the war zone of Chicago, which is bulletproof. Yeah, exactly.
And

Speaker 14 I wonder how you would advise us as a country to deploy humor and mockery of that which is not good. Oh, man.

Speaker 13 If we can't make fun of ourselves, you know, if we can't see how absolutely ridiculous we are, even at our

Speaker 13 best where we're trying to hide all our flaw,

Speaker 13 you know, I look at myself on the monitor every now and I say, who is that old

Speaker 13 white-haired man sitting up there, for God's sake?

Speaker 13 I was that guy up there

Speaker 13 with a full head of wonderful hair and looked like I was 30 years younger. I was almost that.

Speaker 13 But no, this is who I am now. And I wouldn't be able to sit here if I wasn't able to see the flaw in myself.
My kids, my wife, Janet, everyone I know and that truly loves me finds the

Speaker 13 humor in everything that I do, and most of the things I don't do and should do. And so I'm very, very fortunate in that.
And sometimes it hurts like hell.

Speaker 13 The ego is such a beast

Speaker 13 and it will beat you down.

Speaker 13 But the ego has a great purpose it it it teaches us how to identify with ourselves if I didn't have an ego I wouldn't be able to take responsibility for what I believe I would be governed by you you that's the real purpose of the ego when it gets out of hand I want to take it all from everybody and I'm fed by that but that you'll choke you'll choke on your own ego and you're on I think that you know the the old phrase that the Roman conquerors would come back to Rome, they would hire a slave when they're going through the tumultuous crowd and they're being worshipped.

Speaker 13 And the slave was asked to do one thing as he held the wreath over the conqueror, whisper in his ear when the crowd is screaming. The slave would constantly say, It's only fleeting.

Speaker 13 It's only fleeting. It's only fleeting.

Speaker 13 This administration is only fleeting. It's only fleeting.
It's only fleeting.

Speaker 14 Do you think they know that?

Speaker 13 Oh, they got to know it. No.
Really? Because there's no heroes around them to remind them. They think that they're winning.
Yeah, and they seem to have. The bull at a bullfight thinks he's winning.

Speaker 13 Yeah, yeah. You know, they think they're winning.

Speaker 14 But they also act like they think it's forever. And that's the part.

Speaker 14 And law firms act like it's forever, which is why they abandon their principles. And universities seem to think, well, maybe this is forever.

Speaker 14 We'll capitulate to something that is against everything literally in our creed.

Speaker 14 And people seem to capitulate like they think it's forever but I agree with you it's it's more likely than not fleeting it's only fleeting it's only fleeting it's only this is only fleeting you and I are only fleeting all of you are only fleeting what do you think is brewing in Hollywood?

Speaker 14 It feels like in the beginning

Speaker 14 right? Well, but why? Why? I mean artists have typically seen it as existential to have the First Amendment imperiled, to have artistry controlled. And

Speaker 14 why do you think Hollywood has been slow to step in?

Speaker 13 I don't really feel a part of Hollywood, frankly.

Speaker 13 And that's okay.

Speaker 13 I didn't start out as a part of Hollywood, and I won't end up a part of Hollywood

Speaker 13 unless I get buried in the forever Hollywood Cemetery. But I've never felt a part of Hollywood.
I came to New York. I was here for 10 years and did mostly theater.

Speaker 13 And I only went to the West Coast because you could make a living there.

Speaker 13 Theater

Speaker 13 didn't pay for the rent very often, but it nourished you and you had to be in love with the craft and the energy and the literature. The theater is literature to begin with.

Speaker 13 And so that's what nourished us.

Speaker 13 And it still nourishes people, but Hollywood is so

Speaker 13 multi-leveled.

Speaker 13 A young person,

Speaker 13 if you have a certain energy, a certain talent, you can go as far as

Speaker 13 they'll let you, or you choose. I don't know what it is.
I've never, ever felt a part of Hollywood. Really? Yeah, I always felt a bit embarrassed when they called me a Hollywood actor.

Speaker 13 I always thought I was a Broadway star, for heaven's sakes.

Speaker 14 You are.

Speaker 13 You are.

Speaker 14 Can you talk a little bit about your relationship with Aaron Sorkin, who wrote Jed Bartlett, but who also wrote The American President?

Speaker 14 And I think when you see in President Clinton or President Obama a reflection or relationship to the fictional presidents.

Speaker 14 You feel different about your country than when you see someone who said, grab them in the, you know, what.

Speaker 14 I mean, you know, there's no relationship between this current president and anything that's ever been fictionalized by Aaron Sorkin. So where does that come from?

Speaker 13 Well, Aaron is a super patriot with a brilliant mind and a fair heart. You know,

Speaker 13 he never cast a Republican as an enemy.

Speaker 13 They were the loyal opposition if the Democrats were in power, and then vice versa. You know, we grew up with with Eisenhower.
He was like a grandfather, you know.

Speaker 13 And here comes John Kennedy, like a father, you know. And so we were

Speaker 13 available to that kind of leadership, particularly my generation was Kennedy. I wasn't even old enough to vote for him when he won his election, because at that time you had to be 21.

Speaker 13 But Aaron had that sense of

Speaker 13 he even said it openly in the American president, of an unabashed love of country,

Speaker 13 not politics or party per se, but of country, of the possibility of it, of the magic of it, of the generosity,

Speaker 13 the sense of its humanity was,

Speaker 13 everybody had a stake in the matter. Everybody had an opinion and it mattered and it influenced, starting with your parents, you know.

Speaker 13 So

Speaker 13 when we stood to salute the flag,

Speaker 13 it was a joy, a pleasure.

Speaker 13 It wasn't that we didn't feel like it was an obligation. I was at the end of World War II as a boy, but we remembered a lot of it, you know, and what it did to the country and how

Speaker 13 we began to love what we stood for, where we came from, where we could take it, you know. And it took all of us to go to where we wanted to go.
But we could go anywhere we wanted.

Speaker 14 Do you think we are still capable of that, of being united?

Speaker 13 Oh, yeah, we still are. There's so much courage.
There's so many lights. It's never that dark, ever.

Speaker 13 No matter where you walk into that darkness, and I promise you that, as I've said it before, that the opposition, they've chosen to be the opposition.

Speaker 13 We have not made them an enemy, but they've chosen to be in opposition. They admire courage.
They admire a sense of humanity. They admire all the things that are human.

Speaker 13 They're just not permitted to show it. I think I said before, you know, they're having them wear...

Speaker 13 the mask in partly so that they don't show their emotion because they're not proud of what they're doing most of the time, particularly when they're bullies, you know.

Speaker 13 So that's not who we are. That's who they think they are at this time.

Speaker 14 My conversation with Martin Sheen continues right after this. We will be right back.

Speaker 15 I'm Dr. Sarah Rayhall, the founder and CEO of Armra.
I developed Armour Colostrum because I know your body was designed to thrive. It's your natural state, your birthright, and you can reclaim it.

Speaker 15 Colostrum is the first nutrition we receive in life with every essential nutrient our bodies need. It's nature's original blueprint for health.

Speaker 15 After a devastating health crisis almost took my life, I made it my mission to harness this power.

Speaker 15 Using proprietary technology, Armora captures over 400 bioactive nutrients in every scoop, delivering over 1,000 benefits that transform your health at its foundation.

Speaker 15 Whether for gut health, metabolism, skin, hair, immunity, mood, energy, fitness, or recovery, I invite you to join this collective revival of health and discover radical transformation for yourself.

Speaker 15 Visit armor.com, that's A-R-M-R-A.com, and enter code CULTURE30 for 30% off your first subscription order. This statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration.

Speaker 15 This product is not intended to diagnose, treat cure, or prevent any disease.

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Speaker 13 Aaron Sorkin for get back to him was so inspiring and so

Speaker 13 so right on about the country why we loved it so much even when we hated it we loved it it that that's the way we felt about it uh because it belonged to us it was ours we didn't give it over to anybody right it was not theirs to decide it was us the people and it still is

Speaker 13 and aaron would

Speaker 13 you know when i first started the show i would debate him you know my lines particularly you know aaron i would never say this he said no i understand that and he said no i want to say this.

Speaker 13 Oh, all right, fine. What about this? You okay with this? Well, I think maybe not.
All right, go.

Speaker 13 So we would negotiate what I would say, what I wouldn't say. Gradually, I learned that when I did it my way, it was Martin, and it was okay.

Speaker 13 When I did it his way, it was Bartlett, and it was wonderful.

Speaker 14 I love that. I love that.
I think that people feel nostalgic again for, right? Do you feel that? Do you feel more like that? Do you feel like people, because I think it's an iconic show.

Speaker 14 I work in politics because of watching C.J. Craig.
I wanted to be C.J. Craig.

Speaker 14 And I think that when things feel off there, people crave that character and that show even more.

Speaker 13 Well, remember, we had Lawrence O'Donnell.

Speaker 14 Well, I think we have Lawrence O'Donnell.

Speaker 13 Is he in the building?

Speaker 14 I don't know. Maybe we'll see him.

Speaker 13 We had the great Lawrence O'Donnell.

Speaker 13 I heard my name.

Speaker 13 Thank you, thank you, so much. Take this.

Speaker 13 No, no, you take that. You don't know.
You don't know. You're not.

Speaker 13 You arrived just in time.

Speaker 13 You know,

Speaker 13 we at the West Wing were as a writer of.

Speaker 14 Can you remind everybody what, because I googled, you were an executive producer, you were a writer.

Speaker 13 A lot of people were executive producers. Famous episodes.

Speaker 14 The most famous famous episode you wrote, right? Can you just give us your website?

Speaker 13 I wrote a bunch of them in the later years, especially, but I was there from the very beginning,

Speaker 13 beginning with episode two, because Aaron wrote the pilot alone, and you guys did it without any writing stuff. But then we came in for that first, we met at the first table read of episode two,

Speaker 13 and then I was there right through to the end of the show.

Speaker 13 And what I'm so thrilled about you experiencing here today with this guy that you're getting a feeling that I've never really been able to explain to people

Speaker 13 about what it was like to go to work with him every day. You know, to be in the presence of this generosity and grace and goodness and wisdom every day.

Speaker 13 We had a leader,

Speaker 13 you know, we had a leader on that scene

Speaker 13 that was the leader you saw on the show. And you also get to understand something that I've tried to explain to people.
People in show business get it, but

Speaker 13 it's that the thing I dislike the most

Speaker 13 about my show

Speaker 13 is that I'm the one on TV. And what's so difficult for me about that

Speaker 13 is that, yes, I write those scripts that I say on TV,

Speaker 13 but I wrote scripts for him. I wrote scripts and handed them to him and to Alison Janney and to Brad Whitford and to so many great actors, Alan Alda and Jimmy Smith.

Speaker 13 And so, for me to write a script and then do it for you is a sacrilege after having done it.

Speaker 13 Imagine 10 p.m., okay, the writing staff stays the same, and he comes out. Okay, that's a better show.

Speaker 13 That's totally, totally not true to begin with.

Speaker 13 And for some of you who have not watched the show or don't know, he actually played my father in one episode. But I wasn't fortunate enough to be the actor at the time.

Speaker 13 They got a younger version of me. And they had an argument in the scene, and he had to smack him.
He nearly knocked the kid out.

Speaker 13 So I felt he was trying to get back at me.

Speaker 13 Everything he said about me is a reflection of himself.

Speaker 13 We had an authenticity that was not possible without Lawrence O'Donnell. Not just his work with Senator Moynihan here in New York.

Speaker 13 But he he understood the Senate and the House. He understood the executive branch and all the divisions that are supposed to exist between them.

Speaker 13 And he brought that, and he brings it every night but Friday, incidentally.

Speaker 13 How do I get that? Never mind.

Speaker 14 Can I ask both of you a question about the enduring, this is what we were starting to talk about. It's not just the enduring connection that I think fans have to the West Wing.

Speaker 14 It's almost in the absence of something that everyone wants their kids to emulate. And I'm not even sure a MAGA family wants their kids to emulate Donald Trump.

Speaker 14 I'm not sure about that, but I don't think so. His language and his bullying and his conduct online alone.
What is it about the show in these moments that you think endures?

Speaker 13 I do think the thing that has a value right now, and

Speaker 13 I learned from the audience, you know, because when we were doing it, you know, it's this mad struggle to get the script done on time, and we never got it done on time.

Speaker 13 And now I think it has a new importance.

Speaker 13 And a friend of mine told me recently that when he first saw the show, he he wasn't a big fan because he thought it was maybe a little too naive and didn't really get all of the sharp elbow stuff that happens in a white house but now he's watching it with his two sons 14 years old and 16 years old both of whom when you think about when they started to pay attention to a president have had Donald Trump in their lives as president for their entire awareness of the presidency and they need him yeah

Speaker 13 yeah

Speaker 13 Well,

Speaker 13 it's not.

Speaker 13 No, no, it's not me. I'm too old.
They need Bartlett.

Speaker 13 But

Speaker 13 the credibility that Lawrence brought to the show every single time was impeccable. Nobody could challenge his knowledge and his his love of the process, his love of the U.S.

Speaker 13 Senate, particularly we heard you talking about it the other night when you were interviewing Senator Whitehouse and so forth, but the love of the Senate and the process of how it works and

Speaker 13 on all the other branches as well, that credibility

Speaker 13 was the foundation that kept us afloat, that kept us above because we knew what we were doing was legal, was honest, and was also the truth, but it was equally entertaining.

Speaker 13 Because a lot of people didn't know how things actually work in politics. But this gentleman knew and

Speaker 13 the only

Speaker 13 I wouldn't say criticism of shows, but I always say program. I never want to say show because show is something that goes on in the oval.
Program is what goes on at MSNBC.

Speaker 14 Okay.

Speaker 14 Lawrence, I'm so glad you came out here with us.

Speaker 13 There's only one person who could get me up at this hour on a Saturday morning.

Speaker 14 Well,

Speaker 13 my fault.

Speaker 14 We'll hear about it later. Thank you, all of you.
I'm so happy that you're all here. I'm so happy you got to see Martin Sheen.
So happy you had a...

Speaker 14 And Lawrence O'Donnell.

Speaker 14 Thank you. Thank you, guys.
Thank you.

Speaker 13 By the way, Martin really had no idea that I was going to be here. Had no idea.

Speaker 14 I almost blew it too because we were talking about you. And yeah, anyway, you were here for something special with them.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 14 Thank you so much for listening to the best people. You can subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad-free.

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Speaker 14 The best people is produced by Vicki Vergelina and senior producer Lisa Ferry. Our associate producer is Randa Shabazzi and we had additional production support this week from Ann Gimbal.

Speaker 14 Our audio engineer is Bob Mallory and Katie Lau is our senior production manager. Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production.
Pat Berkey is the senior executive producer of Deadline White House.

Speaker 14 Brad Gold is the executive producer of Content Content Strategy, Aisha Turner is the executive producer of audio, and Madeline Harringer is the senior vice president in charge of audio, digital, and long form.

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