The Switch 2 and "Vampire Survivors+RPG"

I downloaded a Neo Pets cheat engine, and

when that's running, which it is around the clock because I'm always grinding it out,

it tends to slow down some of the other processes.

What are you turning on in there?

What cheats you got going?

Infinite

breeding.

Yeah.

Yeah, a lot of the Neopets, they only let you breed them once a week.

I turned on that cheat in college.

I don't want

High five that.

High five B.

I turned on that cheat in college.

High five.

I recently turned that cheat off for myself.

I removed that cheat from my own personal bio cheating.

Which is a cheat in and of itself.

Griffin went to the vasectomy doctor and turned it on yes clipping.

Yes clipping.

That's a good line.

Oh man, that's good.

And this contractually, this checks off this podcast for talking about my vasectomy on.

I think I got to get it it on Death Bart this year, and then that's the whole.

And Radiolab.

You said you were going to do something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Terry Gross has a lot of questions.

My name is Justin McElroy and I know the best game of the week.

My name is is Griffin McElhaney.

I know the best video game console of 2025.

My name is Christopher Thomas Plant, and I know the best game of the week.

My name is Russ Freshwick.

I know the best game of the week.

Welcome to the Besties, where we talk about the latest and greatest in home interactive entertainment.

It is a video game club.

And just by listening, you've become a member.

This week, we're going to be talking about the Switch 2.

Didn't they just make one of these things?

Chris Plant, is that right?

They did it again.

Nobody saw it coming this time, but they said, switch again.

And here we are.

Switch again.

We're going to talk about that, what that means, why it means, and so much more right after this.

In the Beast segment, we're going to be talking about Heroes of Hammer Watch 2.

Like it or not.

So they did it.

They did it.

The Switch 2.

They just made a sequel to one.

They finally did it.

Like, this is not unlike the Wii U,

which is a colossal failure.

Yeah.

God, I hope.

That's interesting.

You know, I would say like we on that.

Okay, I will.

Wii, make a popular thing.

Wii U, which is basically Wii Two, right?

I mean, that's what it's supposed to sound like.

Wii U.

We.

Yeah.

I would say

no one likes it.

That's so cool.

Yeah.

I would say the only difference is that the Wii U was a dramatic departure from the Wii in form and function, and the Switch 2 looks like a big switch.

But they learned their lesson, right?

Well, did they, though?

Because the Switch is really just a Wii U without wires.

I was going to say, everybody's like, hey, they're just redoing the same thing again.

And they kind of did that with the Switch.

They should go back and change the Wii U to like the Switch alpha.

Oh, that's cool.

You see?

And now there's a natural progression.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

I mean, I will, you want to, who, who understands the, the specs the best?

Like, I know all the species.

I think we have before we get into like the

good call.

Good call.

Okay, here are all the specs.

So the Switch one came out.

It was 3.7 inch screen with a 2,400 hertz processor.

And the switch two is a 6.4 inch screen with a 7,700 hertz processor.

That's a large, that's a much bigger screen.

Hold on.

Are these official specs or are these what's been okay?

Let's make that

totally making numbers up.

I was going to say that's insane man that's crazy we don't know anything

i like the bolt such was his confidence that we were kind of

okay it's when you said the switch had a three inch screen that i was like is that right is that right uh we don't know the specs they have not announced any anything going on have a

we can share what the the widely assumed rumor of the technology is.

Yeah, go for it.

Which is the Switch, even when it was released, followed the Nintendo trend of being pretty not powerful and then pulling off amazing feats with what amounted to like a middle-of-the-road like smartphone after a few years.

The Switch 2 sounds like it will be

basically like a Xbox Series S.

And will it literally be that powerful?

No, but with all the changes in modern technology, specifically things like DLSS, which is where you can use AI learning to make the resolution much, much better and process it at a lower rate.

It will be like equivalent to that.

Why that matters?

You can put third-party games on the Switch 2 in theory in a way you couldn't on the Switch 1.

And that would be like a big differentiator for it.

You can run,

what my headcanon is, is like PS4 Pro.

It's like in that ballpark, is like the PS4, PS4 Pro.

And yeah, that's a big improvement.

I will say, and obviously the other big change, apart from the actual like raw power of it, it's about one inch bigger on the diagonal.

I don't have the exact number, but it's about that size based on this, the CG trailer that they put out.

Also, it looks like it has a mouse, but that's not officially confirmed.

Yeah, so there's an it seems to be some sort of optical sensor on the side of the thing, which now snaps in VTOL style to the side of the screen part of the switch instead of sort of sliding sliding in

magnets.

See, Nintendo hasn't confirmed that either.

I mean, you look at that, could only be magnets.

That beautiful thing.

That is the problem: after two years of leaks, they've just gotten closer and closer and closer to the truth.

That the second we saw Joy-Cons like sliding around on a table, we're like, boop, mouse.

That's it.

This reveal felt like the most perfunctory, like, all right, we gotta, we're bleeding over it, we gotta get something out there uh it felt it felt extremely light on detail but i i i was my spirits were buoyed by the fact that it will be uh backwards compatible uh aside from select games which i have to imagine is like fucking ring fit adventure and other sort of like peripheral games that

you're talking the thing is right exactly

Let me just kick this off.

I would love to know what you guys think because I am having trouble ginning up anything too strong about this because it seems so kind of

evident.

And

for me, this just feels a little bit disappointing.

I feel like of all the different aspects of the Switch experience, for me, at this point, the Switch is really just...

It's permanently attached.

Like the Joy-Cons may,

I mean, I don't even need to separate them at this point.

it seems it's a little bit disappointing that of all the things to sort of like carry over

that that is something that was sort of like prioritized when I for me that is super not how I use

for sure the are you saying you use it exclusively in handheld mode or

yeah or even if like and even if not even if it's docked like pro controller I'm pro controller I'm certainly not sliding those things off and like

I just don't understand of the things to like bring over it's just like so sort of I don't know I find it very uninspiring I think there is an argument to be made and this might be Nintendo's argument that because of the larger size and because they did improve the like kickstand on the back of it it's like a better kickstand or something it does become a little more viable in a split screen couch co-op scenario I would love that.

I would love that to be true because the number of times that, you know, Henry's been playing a game on TV and then Gus wants to take over the TV.

And so we switch to playing Kirby Co-op with the thing on the couch constantly fucking falling over because the kickstand, even on the OLED, is not very good.

The idea of playing that with the Joy-Cons, with individual Joy-Cons, instead of two pro controllers, though, is just unthinkable because it doesn't feel great to use a Joy-Con sideways as like a regular controller when there is a normal controller.

But if that is available, that would save me a lot of headache, you know, whenever that situation arises, as edge as it is.

Two takes different directions.

One, we don't know what the Joy-Cons do yet.

Like, they might be mice, for one example, which if that's true, could be cool.

And I hope that there are like weird things that the Joy-Cons still do.

Maybe they are better versions of the Wiimotes and they're actually going to have more physical play back in the system.

I don't know.

I feel like there's like still a surprise that could come.

Yeah.

The other direction of this is

what I guess, like, what do you think the audience is asking for?

Because I feel like half the audience is like, this is a disappointment.

I wanted it to be so much weirder.

Nintendo, like, they come out never since the GameCube.

They make things weird.

And then the other half of the audience is like, I want it to just be the Switch, but better and like ultra powerful.

And I think they're, i feel like it's kind of they're caught between those two camps that to me is what's hard is for a company this is like easily distracted as nintendo with with stuff like this i feel like if you're not coming out saying that this mouse functionality is like a big part of the idea with the thing

I can't see them.

I mean, they even mentioned HD Rumble when they pitched the Switch.

Like, I can't imagine it being a big aspect of it.

You know what I mean?

Like, I think if you're waiting for another shoe to drop, like, where it's like a big bit of functionality or a bait, I don't think it's gonna come.

I think this is it.

Like, I think I

will say there's still more shoes to drop.

I, I, I feel pretty.

I'm not saying that they won't do it.

I'm saying that, like, they won't support it in any way.

I'm saying, I'm saying they might come out with something.

That's interesting.

Yeah, they kind of forget.

Yeah, it's like, right, like HD Rumble, again.

Like, okay, well, I want to do that.

To be fair, all of the first-party games on the Switch basically have HD Rumble.

It's just none of the third-party games do but they did

forget about it, but you're right.

It wasn't the like, oh, you can feel these balls and one-two switch rolling around your Joy-Con.

What I could get excited about.

I still I stand by that B test.

That was cool.

What I could get excited about is like if they were going to use this to bring in if they were going to use mouse functionality not for like gaming because that's

no like no,

we're not going to do that.

If you want to play Doom on your thing, that's not a valuable.

Okay.

I'm serious.

Only if one Joy-Con turns into a mouse and the other one turns into a tiny keyboard.

Yeah, it's just like realistically, it's never going to be a thing.

But like for creativity apps, like if they wanted to get back into the Mario Pate space.

Oh, yeah.

I said that earlier.

Not entirely J- That would be cool.

Like if you want to get into that kind of or Mario Maker.

Mario Maker.

I mean Mario Maker FlipNote Studio.

Like there's they have a history of like

having wild sort of apps like that.

Wouldn't you make that part of the trail?

I mean, wouldn't you make that part of the training?

That's the thing, right?

That's what's hard for me.

There's going to be so much more coming, though.

This is the conversation I feel like that we can have, right?

Because there's so many unknowns.

The question is, like, why was this the opening shot?

Why was this the first salvo, right?

Why not wait?

For me, there is no company, and obviously there's not a lot of companies making gaming hardware, but like, there's no company where the hardware and the software are more intrinsically linked than Nintendo, right?

Because I pretty much

at this point, only play

Nintendo first-party games and multiplayer games with my kid on the Switch, right?

Everything else is going through the Steam Deck.

And so, like, the fact that there wasn't anything other than a new Mario Kart, which is fine, but like not at all demonstrative of what the Switch 2 could do.

Like, I did, I honestly did not clock that it was a new Mario Kart game the first time I watched it.

I did.

You gotta look at at Donkey Kong.

He looks fucking weird in that trailer.

Okay, yeah, I guess I wasn't Zaprootering it hard enough to like tell them, but like, why not?

We all know this shit.

We know this stuff because like the images from accessory makers, like this thing was fully out there, fully, fully, fully, fully out there.

Not the specs, maybe the specs are all rumored, but like what the thing is and what it looks like is out there.

And then they had a trailer that 90% of it was dedicated to like, and here's what the Joy-Cons look like and here's what the screen looks like.

And it's like, yeah, we kind of know that.

So why not have a reveal trailer that's like, yeah, here's all the stuff you already know.

But also.

That's what I'm saying.

If you could

gin up some X, if you had another thing where you're like, sorry, press sneak fucks.

You don't have this.

And if it's coming out this year,

they have that, right?

Like they, they know what.

games are gonna be on it at launch now.

Like you don't have to, you know, completely go ham and show everything, but like now we're waiting three months until we find out anything else about it.

Like all you did was come out and say like, yep, all that stuff that is out there, that's true.

Bye.

Hey.

Well, what that lets them do is now third parties can say we're making this game for Switch 2, which they couldn't before that trailer happened.

Sure.

Yeah.

Well, it does open the gates.

I also just feel like this is like, this is wins all around for Nintendo because now everybody, you're like, like everybody gets gets emotional everybody wants it people talk about it people

three months three months three months comes and then they're like here's everything here all the games you wanted here's mother three here's mother four and mother five yeah here's Pokemon 32 they we've we've got it all for you and then people are immediately like okay I'm relieved I'm going to play the new Mario Kart and the new MMO and the new Mario and the new Animal Crossing Metroid and I'm nobody's going to think about

this announcement ever again, except for like sickos like us.

It is a little disappointing, though.

I think the disappointing aspect is like because when the Switch 1 was announced and that trero was like, what the fuck are they doing?

Are they playing video games on the rooftop of their fancy condo?

That was

right.

There is no comparison.

I don't want the Switch 2 to be bongers.

I want it to be a stronger Switch with a really good first-party lineup.

For me, the thing that I'm looking forward to isn't the Switch 2 hardware.

It's

the

dissolution of this fucking log jam of first-party Nintendo titles that we have just have not been getting.

Speaking of, we're going to talk about Donkey Kong Country Returning HD later in the honorable mention segment.

But like that to me is like when that is finally moving, when that is finally flowing, then I'm going to start getting...

Can I ask though, like, is Nintendo making a good case for them to continue to be in the hardware business if this is the hardware?

Like,

you said that you don't want the Switch 2 to be anything crazy, right?

Yeah.

Well,

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.

I can't say that I'm like, I was wanting it to be like, it's a camera that goes in your fingers, but like, the,

but, um,

I mean, at this point, why be a company that makes hardware, right?

Like, if you, if this is the best you've got, if this is your big idea is like another Switch, and it's basically like,

it's basically a Steam Deck.

I mean, like, I, like, if Nintendo is not, things are so much more boring than they were 10, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, whatever.

And I don't, I think it's worth like kind of, I do think it's worth like.

We, we, we like to joke on Nintendo for being such an oddball all the time, but like, I don't, I do think it's a little sad that it's just like such a clear sort of like

continuing to follow the money that's been working pretty well i i think that all completely checks out i think what nintendo does at its best is it gets ahead of where the market is going and that is as early as like home consoles with uh the nes then going into the super nintendo that is the game boy going into the game boy advanced they're always like ahead of where the market is the we

there was a moment it's hard to remember now where it felt like motion controls were the future of gaming gaming.

And the funny thing, I guess, about the Switch is they were so far ahead of schedule, like way more than probably ever before, where we're going to create a handheld console experience.

So now the rest of the market is finally catching up to them, and they basically get a freebie of we don't have to completely reinvent the thing because we are just dead center in what the market is.

The reason that they actually make the hardware then is because

they can make money off of hardware where nobody else can.

People will design their games down to be on their hardware.

By say down, I mean the like visual presentation, not the quality of the game.

And people will buy their games wherever they are.

So I think if it were any other company where they're losing money on hardware, you know, Xbox is, I think, hitting this problem.

Totally agree with you.

And I think there's real questions of like, should Xbox even make a handheld or should they just make an OS that is somehow better than Steam OS?

Yeah.

Switch, I think it's just free money.

Yeah, it's free money.

They sold 146 million Switches.

That's a lot.

That was as of September of last year, so even more now.

It's probably going to be the best-selling game console of all time.

It's going to beat out, I think the PS2 was ahead of it.

Or the DS?

What's the DS up there?

DS was up there.

I used to do the joystick Japanese gaming hardware sales report every week.

And keep in mind, like that is so strictly capitalist reasons, that's the reason to be in the console market.

And the other thing is, as Plant was alluding to, a lot of people will design for this hardware.

And Nintendo is getting, what is it, 30% of every third-party sale that happens on their marketplace.

Russ,

Russ, I love you, my friend.

I love you, but please save this for CNBC.

This is an insane.

You're shooting your

wadding.

wad logic into this.

What are we doing?

Like, what do we give a shit?

Like, I'm serious.

I'm telling you why they're doing it.

I don't know what to do.

I understand that.

I'm saying that, like,

I think it's sad.

I think it's very sad.

And I think that we should say that it's sad to watch the reveal video for a new Nintendo console.

And the reaction is, hmm.

Because that's how I felt.

And I can't imagine anybody feeling any different.

That's a bummer, man.

Do you know what I mean?

I admit it.

I thought the first uh the switch one trailer was like a a ground-changing moment and this was definitely not that

we you switch virtual boy nintendo 64 game queue i mean now hold on you can't slide virtual boy in there like it when you saw the reveal of the virtual boy i mean i was like what

the fuck are you guys doing that's so crazy i bought a virtual boy and it was no it's all the money i had in the world and it sucks shit but it's still we but we like rely I just think it's like

if the argument is like we should be celebrating Nintendo because they get to rest on their laurels this generation.

I'm not saying we should sell that.

I'm just saying they're going to make a really successful fucking handheld.

I would also say it leaves them room to do two things for you.

You would leave this to Microsoft.

Let Microsoft do this.

All right.

A true gamer would want the cameras in the fingers.

Right.

Where me and ModaSon sees the future.

Let me just say, I think apart from the shock value, all their innovation comes in software.

Like you get that initial shock value of what is this console, and then once the console's out, the next seven or eight years is just like basically software innovation.

Or, hey, we're going to let you build a cardboard robot that connects to your Switch for some fucking reason.

Like, they will bring innovation in other ways.

I agree with you.

This handheld, this console does not seem like it is bringing that fire, but they're going to have the new answer to like what Zelda's fucking is this year.

You know what?

I want hoops.

I want to do that.

you're proving my point don't make hardware then if they

get to make

hardware they make money and then the money funds the software like

they make money off of us buying it do you understand what i'm saying just make video games don't

you're not proving the worth of your existence why exist we're we're missing it it is so obvious They have to keep the Joy-Cons because they're going to finally deliver on the original Switch's promise.

You will be able to get fishing Joy-Cons.

You will be able to get basketball clips right Joy-Cons where you're flipping little baskets.

It is going to be the Sega Dreamcast accessories of Joy-Con.

Switch 2 will be the one where you can insert it into the original Joy-Cons will be.

Like a keyboard is going to strap onto your Joy-Con.

It's going to be fucking awesome.

And then we're all going to look back at this episode and be like, we were.

What were we thinking?

We should have known that they were going to put Seaman,

the Dreamcast game in that's my joystones here is here's what i'm telling you guys here's what i'm telling you guys we went from a world where there were multiple nintendo consoles doing different things in different directions different form factors like three as many as three platforms at once going and i just think it's like a little sad to go from that nintendo to the nintendo that follows up like the longest running console it has ever had with just like a number two of that console.

It's like the name is bad.

The name is disappointing.

The name, I think, more than anything is disappointing.

I mean, the name is accurate.

I feel like the name I have the least problem with because it very much is like Switch 2.

You know, my, my grown-up Christmas wish for the Switch 2 is

that they have a, they get a little bit more fun with the OS.

I miss Me, Street Pass.

Yeah.

I miss like, that, that stuff I feel like was,

I don't know it really characterized what Nintendo's priorities were when the 3DS was kind of like you know the the the big heavy hitter for them

and I feel like the switch is it has a very functional OS but it's not as sort of like silly and I want to I want to be able to open presents when I buy a game I want it to be in a little present box and I hit that present box and I here's here's what I what I would love if if if Nintendo is going to go down this route right

what I think you're missing by increasing the size is I think you're losing more of like that portability market.

I think there's a market of people.

And I do think that a lot of the retro consoles, part of what they show is that I think people want a device in that form factor, right?

You don't necessarily want your Jenkos to carry around your thing.

I would love for them to play with something that's in like a VMU.

Like the idea of a Joy-Con that you can bring with you, you know what I mean?

And like respond to other people's Joy-Cons, you know what I mean?

Like make it, make there a reason for that.

Like Joy-Con Street Pass functionality.

That would be very cool.

Because I don't want to carry even less.

I already don't carry the Switch around, but like, even less am I going to carry on Switch 2 in my pocket.

Yeah.

I mean, but there's also the Switch Light, which also isn't pocketable.

I love the Switch Light.

It is my preferred form factor of the Switch, even though the screen is not anything to write home about.

But it is not,

it ain't pocket-sized, right?

And so there is something lost there.

Yeah, I would agree that of all the things, the limited things they announced,

it being bigger was not necessarily a selling point for me because I play it almost exclusively in handheld and I just want to like have it be light and easy to hold.

Yeah.

I was also a little bummed that the Joy-Cons do not look remotely.

They've like seemingly made no effort to make them ergonomic,

which was one of my big critiques of the first Joy-Cons.

They're still just like flat backs, which I think is because want people to use it detached and like sideways.

But again, I don't think a lot of people are necessarily doing that.

So maybe just make them comfortable to hold in most circumstances.

Yeah, if they made them comfortable to hold without the doodads, I think people could meet.

It is just that combo of like, even after you put the stupid things on, they're still not very good.

It's just not worth it.

Have you all seen the IN Neo 3?

Yeah.

Like how you can replace effectively the control face plates.

They're like clip in.

I guess, I know i'm repeating myself now but i

really wish nintendo i really hope they do something like that i i think having joy-cons that are more for ergonomics i know that i like saying this out loud i know that they're going to rely on third party to just handle it but having their design level handling this issue would be so much better and so much more enjoyable you know i'm starting to feel like the third parties are really doing kind of an amazing job filling in the blanks on the ergonomic side.

Like you talk, you look at companies like

I've been using like a Gamesur controller, which is a company that I hadn't heard of until like the last year.

And it kind of crushes the original Xbox controller.

Like D-brand and all these sorts of companies, I think, are doing a very good job of filling in the blanks.

I got a Power A nano controller for the Switch for Henry to use because it's a little bit smaller.

And now it's also what I exclusively use because it feels good to use it tightly.

I think it just allows for more flexibility

rather than being like locked into whatever the thing is.

I just just fix the fucking Joy-Cons, guys.

Make sure I don't have to replace them every year

because that was...

They hate that.

Yeah, they really do.

I am in the middle of the day.

What's one of their least favorite things about the Joy-Cons?

It's how fucking many of them you buy.

I appreciate the fact that we have gotten 28 minutes of blood out of this stone.

I don't know that there's a lot more to talk about.

There is one more thing.

Because you guys didn't see him initially because he was in the background.

Can we comment on Donkey Kong, the new design for Donkey Kong, specifically in Mario Kart 9?

Because that was really the biggest difference that was in the entire trailer.

I've dropped an image of the new Donkey Kong into the chat.

What are your first reactions?

I mean, we'll start with

his gains are impressive.

This is a thick man who has been putting in the hours and the discipline.

Is this AGH that he's using?

It's, yeah,

it's ape hormone

stuff.

I don't know what the acronym stands for.

It does look like the movie.

It looks like the movie DK

to me.

Yes.

Oh, and like the very classic drawn on the side of the arcade cabinet.

Oh, yeah.

It's kind of throwback in that way.

Yes, I think that's what they're going for here.

That was a meaner Donkey Kong, an angrier Donkey Kong.

The Donkey Kong that is on the left here is just Andross

from

Star Fox 64 with like different,

wearing some sort of grim ape mask

on.

Can we go to the break and talk about a really good game called Here's a Him?

Yeah, watch 2.

Let's do that.

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Okay, so let's all look back in time to when I introduced Heroes of Hammer Watch to this crew.

This would be a celebration of you.

Many years ago, I introduced this game, and you guys rolled your eyes.

You're like, oh, this is look at these little baby guys with their old graphics.

Who cares?

And it grabbed the podcast by storm.

I don't think Plant played it, but everyone else played it a lot and really liked it.

It was my most played Switch game of that year.

That's crazy.

I didn't play it a bunch.

You didn't play it that much, Jay?

It was just me and you, really, Russ.

Oh, okay.

We got hard into it.

I didn't play this.

Hammer Watch 2 came out.

We didn't really like that too much.

And now, Heroes of Hammer Watch 2 has come out.

And the naming convention is very confusing, but this is the good one, y'all.

Yeah.

This is the good one.

This was on my horizon, right?

Right.

This was on my most anticipated games of 2025 list.

I didn't realize that it would be out three days after we released that episode.

They totally stealth-dropped it.

Yeah, so it's like if you can imagine that they grafted

RPG mechanics onto vampire survivors, so like

or and gauntlet, and you put a little bit of gauntlet in there, and I think you're pretty, pretty close.

Wow.

Why have I not played this?

This sounds good.

Yeah, Chris, you should play this fucking game.

It's pretty good.

I mean,

yeah, so basically, you're making, you're taking a, say you pick a wizard.

There's four different classes.

It's the classics, right?

There's actually seven, but some of them.

Yeah, you unlock other ones as you play.

Come on, Juice.

Does your wife seem happy?

Like, does she seem like a happy person?

No, she doesn't.

I didn't think, I wouldn't have had it.

So there's four classes.

There's a warrior,

and there's a wizard, and there's a, you know, a rogue, and there's a paladin.

Each one feels pretty different.

You know, it's like the difference between slinging spells around and then having like more close combat abilities, but it is still that like feels that auto-shooter thing of you're trying to like fire as fast as you can and fire off your abilities as fast as you can.

More, I would say, more agency than a lot of those like auto-shooter things give you, but

it is that it feels like that.

It's like a Diablo D-Make in a way.

Yeah, it feels like an ARPG more than a, more than a it's hard because, like, vampire survivors is, is already, like, a...

You know, like we're taking like mechanics there and like boiling them down to their...

There's some of that.

There's some of that in there.

There's Gauntlet in there there's vampire survivors in there there's um

a persistent sort of and actually

if you didn't play halls of torment it's kind of similar to that where you have different characters that have different gear that you unlock so like as you're leveling up each of these in individual classes um i you guys would play a lot more than me so you could probably explain better how leveling up each class is helping your like meta so each class has like a mastery bonus that applies to every character So for the rogue, if you make a rogue, every level that you get with your rogue adds like a 1.5%

gold bonus, which really starts to stack up as you level up that class.

Sorcerer, if you level them up, that increases your mana regeneration.

The basic like loop of the kind of like roguelike elements of Heroes of Hammer Watch 2 are what make it so strong because every time you play, you are leveling up your character and earning those bonuses for every other character you might make.

You're finding resources to upgrade your town, which unlocks all kinds of different upgrade opportunities for you.

You are finding pieces of equipment, which is new for Heroes of Hammer Watch 2.

So, like, you're not just leveling up, you're also putting builds together based on what kind of equipment you're finding, which has all kinds of new systems associated with it.

There's an enchanter that you can use to get the right, you know, sort of bonuses on it.

It's so, it is so much stuff and it makes it feel like every time you are playing you are getting stronger in like 10 different ways which is very very very compelling to me it also has the like the juice that you get when you're playing a vampire survivors or halls of torment where you are fighting seemingly like a thousand i mean it's not this many but like a hundred guys at once and the screen is filled with numbers going up and you get that satisfaction of i'm gonna drop this nuke and like clear the entire screen like that feels fucking amazing i will say that in in as long as like the vampire survivors comparisons are are coming um i did experience kind of a slow period in in most of the time early in runs where like as it's not really much of a challenge and you're just trying to get it going i don't know if like i know vampire survivors fixes that with like a hyper mode or like a you know

a you know that kind of deal i don't know yeah there there's a there's a fast travel mode that's a little bit hidden in the game but you basically get the ability to skip the first first five levels, worlds, if you feel like you're strong enough.

It's actually a really smart system.

Once you get deep enough into the game, you unlock this air or this tower, this room, and you basically say, like, okay, I'm going to challenge myself with...

Basically, you can light these different candles.

And if you light four candles, a shitload of enemies are going to come in.

And if you survive all those enemies, it'll give you enough gear to basically survive seven levels deep.

So it kind of like

throws one incredibly difficult challenge at you in lieu of playing through like three or four levels.

Which is great because then

you skip ahead to the harder stuff where you're getting more experience and more money and better loot.

And like it lets you skip some of the more

repetitive stuff that you've already done.

Here's a Hammerwatch 2 is actually pretty good at

doing that.

More so than Heroes of Hammer Watch 1.

I think it looks great.

I'm playing as a paladin and it also has class specializations.

So, once you get a class to level 10, there's like three different branches that it goes off in.

Uh, so the paladin I'm playing is all about like fire magic that goes out in this huge radius, which then sets off this combo system.

So, now you're moving twice as fast and shooting like bolts of light out of you.

It's so like fast and crazy.

I'm often hard on games with a retro aesthetic, but I will say they're doing some really cool stuff with like transparencies and things like that that have like a it almost makes it feel a little bit uncanny valley because it's like graphically it's sort of it looks like something you'd remember but there are there's effects there's things going on under the hood that that feel very modern I don't know it's a cool yeah the lighting is very modern yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um and the designs like the designs of the individual like characters and the spells and stuff are are are modern did you guys like playing all of the classes equally or did you find yourselves gravitating towards some

I went wizard.

I started with a wizard, and that's kind of like glass cannon is usually what I start games with, and that felt really good.

And I ended up leveling that up all the way and eventually beating the game with it.

And what's cool is when you beat the game, you get gear for the other classes.

So I was able to start a fresh paladin with like a level 20 sword right from the jump.

So what was previously like a very slow restarting of a character from scratch actually went a lot faster because I was like, what's the term?

Twinking?

Is that right?

It doesn't sound right, but when you drop something.

That's right.

I mean, that is what it is called.

I have not heard that term used for quite some time for reasons that I bet you could figure out.

So, yeah, I was able to like basically get past the slow parts of leveling up a guy from scratch.

For Chris Plant, I will say this.

The reason that

I think you would enjoy the core gameplay, but this game definitely requires you to do that thing where When you're level three, there is no possibility you will ever beat the game.

Numerically speaking, you will not have the strength to get to the end of the run.

It's not splunky.

You don't start from scratch.

You need to like grind the resources to get enough stuff to level up the skills to get you there.

Once you're there, it feels really good and satisfying because you feel like you've earned it, whatever.

But that is just a heads up because I know you are not a big fan of doing that stuff.

I did not have a lot of problems with the game.

The only thing that was like tripping me up, and this could just be

your mileage may be very thing, but

some of the abilities, like the wizard has an ability where it's like bringing up a reticle and then you're firing, so it's like bringing up a targeting reticle while you're moving around, and there's this targeting reticle, and then you have to push a different button to fire off the attack.

So, it's like you start the ability, and then you aim with the reticle while you're moving, and then you fire it off.

It feels like more of a mouse and keyboard kind of contraction.

It's not hard or impossible, it just, especially on the Steam Deck, like felt bad.

It just like I was getting like a weird claw claw grip to make it happen.

Yeah, I ended up remapping a lot of controls just to make it feel better.

And when you're moving, trying to like target something in that view while you're moving, it just feels like too much.

I don't know.

I like the characters that were

that didn't rely on

that as much.

Yeah.

I will also say there was a patch yesterday that improved this somewhat, but there is this insane issue where after you play a certain number of levels, the load times become exponentially longer and it doesn't get fixed until you quit the game and restart,

which is like they do save it every time you start like a new level of your run.

So it's not like catastrophic, but it is pretty annoying

and hopefully the kind of things that they can fix.

It seems like they've been very proactive.

I think the game launched last week and there's been three patches, significant patches since then that have really addressed a lot of the community concerns.

I think they are very worried after the reaction of Hammer Watch Watch 2.

I think they're like extremely worried of like falling in that muck again.

But obviously the response for this one has been much more positive.

Really great.

It's so strange to me how they released this.

Like I know it's not the biggest franchise in the world, but This game kicks ass.

It's really exceptionally fun and good, and I can't stop playing it.

And the people playing, the like community is like super, super into it.

I don't understand why they didn't put like a little bit of heat.

Here's my well, will say, guys, I think you got some rose-tinted glasses on.

I'm enjoying it, but like, I think you're seeing a lot of the

potential because of the experience you've had.

That

my experience technically was really bad.

I mean, like, really bad, like freezes beyond the caching, like it would just stop, hard stop, or like it wouldn't be able to move the character.

Like, there's a lot of stuff going on like that.

And some of the things we're talking about with like equipment and the way that those systems all interact,

a lot of it's like not very clean or well explained.

And maybe you understand it better like from previous experience, but I think there's probably more rough edges than you're seeing.

I think that's right.

And keep this in mind.

When I got super into Heroes of Hammerwatch, it was at the Switch launch.

And this game is only on PC right now.

And I'm pretty sure when Heroes of Hammerwatch 1 launched, it launched on PC first.

And then...

I don't know, it could have been a year later that it launched on Switch.

And so it wouldn't surprise me if to answer both of your questions, one, they're going to address a lot of those issues as they work through these patches.

And two, they'll do more of a marketing push when the game hits console.

I could see both of those happening.

I am really loving it.

I'm very much into it.

And if you're a fan of the first one, I think you should definitely check it out.

If you're a little wary, you can wait because it'll, you know, they're clearly patching it a lot.

And

it's hard to definitely feel.

It's like one of those that, like, if you play it in a year, it will almost certainly be a better experience.

Like, it's almost going to be

I don't think it's in a bad state right now, but I think a lot of that, you're right, has to do with me and the amount of time that I've spent on the original.

On the original.

But I am already, the fact that I'm already seeing performance gains and like not seeing as those dramatic slowdowns that I was three days ago

really says that they're pretty tuned in to what's going on.

The first game also got a few really good DLC releases that I'm hoping

they will continue supporting.

I don't know.

I loved that first game and Hammer Watch 2, I thought, was so, so disappointing and frustrating.

And

I was worried that they would not be able to sort of like return to form.

But

I think that those fears have been assuaged for me.

One last thing.

It is really, really fun in multiplayer.

We mentioned it in passing, but it's like kind of perfectly designed for multiplayer.

It supports up to four players.

Normally, apparently people have been using debug codes to get like 16 people in a game.

I joined a server with 64 players.

It was so funny.

I had to leave after like 10 seconds because my Steam Deck was going to melt in my hands.

But it's great.

You can revive people.

There's like this tension of like, oh, shit, this guy died while going through a bunch of traps.

Do I bother to revive him or not?

It just feels very much like a great, it would be like a great couch co-op experience or online for that matter.

It's very stable.

It doesn't feel laggy at all.

Yeah.

What are we going to do now, guys?

Are we going to do honorable mentions and talk about Donkey Kong Country Returns HD?

Let's do that.

Let's do that.

Sure.

I didn't play the original Donkey Kong Country Returns.

I put it on 3DS.

This is actually the third time it got,

I guess the second time it got re-released because it came out on Wii originally, and then it got released like a year later on 3DS, and now this is coming out on Switch, which is a very bizarre sequence of events.

Yeah.

But it was the predecessor to Tropical Freeze, which was a Wii U game that came to Switch.

And now there's an HD version of Donkey Kong Country Returns.

Yeah.

Called Donkey Kong Country Returns HD.

And this was the basically retro saying, we're going to reboot the Donkey Kong Country franchise after doing so well with Metroid Prime.

And so they made basically, you know, these games play like Donkey Kong Country, but obviously with 3D graphics, but still side-scrolling.

And I think with this one in particular,

they were, it feels very much like they're like, let's get our feet wet and more or less make like a relatively basic platforming game in the style of Donkey Kong Country.

But from a design perspective, we're not going to like swing for the fences necessarily.

We're going to like...

focus on other stuff.

I don't know.

Just to like

get it set.

And so when you compare this game to Tropical Freeze, it's like kind of night and day.

Tropical Freeze feels like a much more developed, thoughtful game.

Yeah.

I played it with Henry pretty much exclusively in two-player mode,

and we were having a pretty good time with it.

It does get really hard, really, really fast because it's a Donkey Kong Country game.

And when I say really hard, I mostly mean, you know, for an eight-year-old, I'm fucking lee.

I can beat any game.

Like, try me, put me in front of you.

Sure.

I'll fuck it up.

But it started to get very frustrating.

There is one mechanic that I think is the worst thing,

just the worst thing ever to ever feature in any kind of multiplayer platform or game.

And it is that if one of your players dies when you're playing co-op,

that player can respawn into the world as a DK barrel on a balloon that floats down and it goes across the screen back and forth in an insane sine wave that is unpredictable and demonic.

And if you don't hit it as the other player to free that monkey, then that barrel's gone as is that life.

So, like, there was a level we were trying to get through for a long time that was like an ocean level where you're jumping across all these little platforms and trying not to fall into the water and instantly die.

And if one of us would die, we'd spawn back in and the barrel would just zoom, zoop, zoop, zoop, zoom back and forth.

And we'd miss it and would go through all of our lives and then lose and have to restart the entire level.

Like, there's some stuff in here that is so frustrating and not in a

way.

Ruin the faith of your child in you.

Yeah.

Right?

Like your child is like, you, dad, mom, you're a pro gamer.

Surely you can do this.

And here you are jumping off a cliff trying to save the life of your child.

Of your child.

Yeah.

And then they're like, wow, you can't even, you can't even do this.

You can't even do this for me.

If you're going to fail me here, how are you going to fail me in the future?

I do not, I'm not a fan of this.

It's also weird because

Tropical Freeze did add more, I guess, help to kid gamers.

They added the funky Kong mode, which had, he had more health, he had a double jump, he had like fucking hovering, like he had all sorts of like things that he was making the game easier with and it doesn't seem like they've added a lot of that stuff here.

There's There's an inventory where you can

bring power-ups and stuff into levels.

Most of them don't work when you're playing in co-op mode.

So, like, what are we doing?

What are we doing, man?

We pivoted off discussing this as our main game of the week, I think, pretty quickly after each of us played it.

And we're like, there's not a ton to.

It does make me wonder.

I just worry a little bit because

Nintendo will obviously continue doing this.

They're going to re-release their old games.

And in in a lot of cases, I'm thrilled that that's happening because there are games like Link Between Worlds that I would love to play again in full graphics and on a big screen, something like that.

But I do worry that, like,

if the barrier to like a remake is this

rather than like a much more full-featured thing, that that makes me a little worried.

Like, I think Super Mario World was a great example.

What was it?

Super Mario

3D World.

3D World was paired with Bowser's whatever the fuck story Yeah, whatever that game was.

That was great.

That was fucking amazing because you got two great games in one package.

Totally worth it.

But this for $60 is just like, it's a Wii game.

It's for $60.

I want to just say also, I want to rescind my earlier trepidation about the Switch 2.

If Nintendo can continue to deliver like this on the software end, I think we're in for a very bright future indeed.

I think this is more indicative of the log jam.

The past, like,

I don't know, man, year of Nintendo first party exclusives has been so lackluster

and so disappointing.

And it just feels like there's this big, beautiful tomorrow waiting just around the bend.

The weird one for me is why not Wind Waker?

Like, that thing has been done forever.

And, like, why are we getting this?

My thinking,

my guess is that they just are

spacing out Zelda titles, and they just had a Zelda title come out four or five months ago.

They need one next year.

And they need one next year.

So that would be my guess.

But I'm sure it'll happen.

I mean, I've been saying that for four years, but I'm sure it will happen.

Can we talk about other honorable mentions?

Yes.

Yes.

I want to briefly mention one.

the movie Night Bitch on you can watch it on Hulu.

It's adapted from a novel and it's a, I would say like it's sort of a heightened reality

movie.

I hope so.

Yeah, I would say.

It is a movie about

a woman struggling with balancing like

motherhood and her career and her aspirations and the pressures that society puts on her and everything.

And it is

in the premise, there is this idea that she is turning into a dog at night.

And that is a metaphorical device, maybe.

I don't know.

You gotta watch the movie, find out.

There was a wink there.

I'll get in here.

But it's a movie about

how

women are expected to function in our society and parents in general and how hard that is and how unrealistic and monstrous in many ways it is.

There is a lot of stuff watching this movie that

I could feel like my wife sort of reverberating with and things in this movie that like helped me understand

what her experience is like and has been like there is a lot of this movie that I'm already realize from like talking to my wife over the years and and and living through things with her but if you are someone who is a young parent uh on no matter what where you are on the sort of like gender spectrum I think that's like a really powerful movie and a very like I wish I had seen it as a younger dad because I think I would have been a better parent and I if I had seen it and understood a little bit better sort of like my wife and

where her head had been at.

But it stars Amy Adams.

It's called Night Bitch.

It's very funny.

It's very well done.

It's very entertaining.

It's not like preachy or anything, but it is, I found it very moving.

So the other thing I briefly wanted to mention is that since we had our like retro discussion, I've been like

messing around a lot with the retro retro games and trying to get a bunch of stuff up and running on the retroid uh five

and I had this idea of like trying to get a bunch of FMV stuff that I had never checked out right that's like digging that out so here's the problem is this the Philips CDI had this thing called the digital video cartridge which and Justin confirm this shouldn't be a three-hour YouTube essay right it'll be really quick Jenny Nicholson this if you wanted to I think it'll be really quick so you know like a memory pack expansion for the Nintendo 624 right?

Right.

This is a digital video cartridge that you had to install in the Philips CDI because it could play video,

but in order for it to like process video off the discs, you needed the digital video cartridge, which was not inbuilt into the Philips CDI.

The digital video cartridge has not been

well emulated in any

real sense that is that can be reproduced.

So there are a lot of titles titles on

the CDI that I have never, and as far as I could tell, will never experience because the emulation is not there and there's no passion for it.

There's things like, guys, what's Christmas country and Christmas crisis?

I don't know, right?

Do you remember in the 60s?

I don't know.

I don't get a chance to.

You know what I mean?

But is that actually a game?

Yeah, Monty Python's invasion from Planet Skyron, and I don't get to.

It's not fair, right?

There's a seventh guest, you know?

Guys, there's a Hulk Hogan Thunder in Paradise FMV game that I don't get to.

I listen.

Okay, listen, that's a paper.

Now,

here's what I'm doing.

Here's the deal.

I am taking this opportunity to announce Justin McElroy Prize for Success and Innovation.

And here is the prize.

If you can get the Philips CDI digital video cartridge emulated in a way where I can play it on my Retroid Pocket 5.

I will give the recipient of that award

$1,000 in Olive Garden gift certificate.

Wow.

That's a lot of pasta.

I will not be communicating this.

I will not be researching it.

If you are the person who says, hey, hoops, here's how I can get these digital video cartridges going for you.

I did the emulation.

I made it up.

That person's going to get this incredible prize.

Let the race begin.

Let man's progress be unfettered.

And let's get

okay.

I mean, like, and our lawyer's not here.

Our lawyer's not on the call.

So I'll go ahead and.

Our lawyer is not on the call.

I'll go ahead and say this might not work for you at home.

If you think I have the skills to do this, you might do it and still not win the prize.

There isn't going to be an email.

I think it's the first person to email you, right?

The first person

to email me with their work.

Don't just email me a link to something you read that might work.

No, I want you to make it.

Make it easy for me.

I'm using the same CDI core.

It's within the main framework.

That seems to be the accepted way people are playing CDI games.

By the way, this isn't like piracy.

No one gives a shit about the film CDI on in any reality.

If I called Phillips, they wouldn't.

I don't even know if I could call Phillips.

I don't think I could.

I don't think you could call Phillips at all.

I just want to make make sure I have this right because I am writing the rules down into the newsletter.

The Justin McElroy Prize for Success and Innovation,

if you can get the Phillips CDI emulation fully playable on Justin's Retroid Pocket 5.

Well, let me say the Phillips CDI digital video cartridge emulated.

Because that's what I mean.

Maybe it's easier to pick a title.

Maybe you should just tell people if you can play Christmas Christmas.

Because I don't want them to like,

this this is a prize in innovation.

This isn't selfish.

I'm trying to move mankind forward.

I see.

Do you understand?

Yeah, I see.

Sorry, say this.

The digital video card training.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hey,

I'll say this.

If they have this much trouble with what it's called, they're probably not going to win the prize.

Okay.

Can they get cash value for the cards?

Yeah, they can.

They can, as long as they don't mind selling someone their olive garden gift certificates, because that's the only way it's going to work.

Maybe somebody will give them pennies on the dollar.

Potter down at the bank is buying olive garden certificates for 50 cents on the dollar.

I'll be closing my account.

Now, hold on just one second.

I'm trying to open Kabara's grill.

Your money is in her olive garden gift certificates.

All the Darden family of brands is represented.

I want to promote

a documentary series on Peacock called SNL 50 Beyond Saturday Night.

It's a four-part docuseries about Saturday Night Live on its 50th anniversary.

First episode's about, it's called Five Minutes, and it's all about auditioning for Saturday Night Live, what that is like from all the cast members.

The second episode's about what it's like to be a writer going through the week, you know, Monday to Saturday.

The third part is about the more cowbell sketch.

The whole thing is about the whole.

And then the fourth part is about season 11, which was the insane season where Lorne Michaels returned to the show after like a five-year hiatus and cast fucking Randy Quaid and Robert Dowdy Jr.

and like all of these people who were only on for a single season, almost getting the show canceled forever.

It's so fascinating.

The audition and writing episodes have given me so much anxiety as a like comedic performer.

And so there is a strong emotional response, but I think it's just fantastic.

And it really, really, really takes you behind the curtain.

I cannot fathom the amount of anxiety that that show must produce in people.

It is

truly the worst scenario.

It really, though, I just want to echo what Griffin said.

That first episode is the only one I've watched so far, but like you think about what Broadway video, which like Lauren Michaels' company has access to.

I mean, like, think about all of the other auditions are perfectly captured captured in HD.

So there's so much footage you've never seen before of like people, people watching their auditions for the first time.

Like, that's so like seeing Heidi Gardner watch her auditions of comedy.

Yeah, 100%.

That's, yeah.

Oh, man.

Heidi Gardner's audition is so, like, her response to it is so moving.

You get to see Tracy Morgan's audition, which is like the funniest shit.

Will Farrell's audition is like iconic.

Like, I don't know.

It's, I, I have fallen off SNL.

It's not a show I watch every week anymore, but the

I

feel like I care a lot about that show still and got to see some stuff about it that I didn't know.

I also have been messing around with the Retroid Pocket 5, and I've been playing mostly Final Fantasy 9 because we talked about it last week.

That game still looks fucking great and is fun to play.

And Shinmu, because finally, Dreamcast Emulation is pretty good.

And Shinmu is a...

Yeah, speaking of which, I maybe need to come up with a new prize to make C-Man work.

That one's tough to emulate, too.

I was trying to get that going.

Do you have a mic on the Retro Packet 5?

I don't know.

How are you going to talk to Leonard Nimoy if you don't have a mic?

No.

I'm going to Google that.

You have anything?

People who are in New York, go to the MoMA if you can, between like now and I think mid-February, because there is a movie playing that I think the last time it played was 2010 called The Clock.

And it is a 24-hour movie

where each minute is related to moments in other movies where they're talking about that minute.

So like if it's 2.22 p.m.,

it's a clip from Taking a Pelham 123 where John Travolta is like, it's 2.22.

You better be ready by 2.34.

And then at 2.34, we like get the follow-up to that scene.

for 24 hours.

It sounds...

Can I just watch it on Netflix or something?

I wish, man.

I really wish because

the first,

I don't know, 10 minutes, I was like, oh, this is real painful and slow.

The next five minutes, I was like, I think I'm asleep.

And then the next two and a half hours, I'm like,

this is the most engaging thing.

I mean, it's like TikTok.

It is.

You can't stop.

Like, it's...

It's like constant cliffhangers.

And

the artist who made it has like a great sense of humor.

So you start to realize that it is is kind of building its own story and that there are callbacks and goofs between all of it.

And it is not like all art films.

Like a lot of it is

a lot to choose from.

It's great and I

yeah, if you can go see it, you should.

Also, if you can't go see it, hey, I'm just going to say you should be using your Crunchyroll subscription right now because it's the new season of anime and there's a lot of good stuff.

Honey lemon soda I watched.

It was just good vibes.

If you want a little sweet romance, you can get that right now.

Cool.

I played Donkey Kong Country.

I'm in, you know, potty training hell.

So there hasn't been a lot going on.

I'm continuing to play Pokemon Snap, new Pokemon Snap, which is...

I think we're like...

Probably 50 hours into that game.

There is so much fucking shit in that game.

It's insane.

It's incredible.

I think I massively underestimated it when I first played it.

And if you are a Pokemon fan or you want to turn a child into a Pokemon fan, holy shit.

This is the one to do it with.

Very, very, very fun.

I think we did it.

You want to recap?

Yeah, we talked about the Nintendo Switch 2 announcement.

We dug into Heroes of Hammerwatch 2, Donkey Kong Country Returns HD.

We also mentioned Final Fantasy 9, Shinmu, New Pokemon Staff, Night Bitch, SNL50, Beyond Saturday Night, The Clocket MoMA, and Honey Lemon Soda.

And we revealed or announced the Justin McElroy Prize for Success and Innovation.

You can find the details at besties.fan.

I wanted to thank everyone over at the Patreon for supporting us, patreon.com slash the besties.

You can get new episodes and all sorts of cool stuff there.

We have resties episodes.

We have this month's bracket episode.

We have a new bracket episode coming out first week of February.

Always new stuff there.

So thank you so much to all y'all for supporting us.

I also wanted to mention

that the readers, specifically Bass Toad, wanted to

applaud us over the fact that Russ from Retro Game Corps last week mentioned that he was a Master Chief in the Navy and none of us made a joke.

Oh guys.

Oh man,

we were all on our best behavior, I think.

We really were.

Yeah.

I think we all did like simultaneous eyebrow raise.

Hmm.

Okay.

I was vibrating.

What are we doing next week?

Next week, we're going to be talking about Citizen Sleeper 2.

Bit of a cult hit, getting a follow-up here.

We beloved the first one.

Will we beloved this one?

Hard to say.

Only time will tell.

Find out next time on the besties.

Because shouldn't the world's best friends pick the world's best games?

Besties