Jen Shah: From Real Housewife to Real Prison Time with Watch What Crappens | 92

Hey, you.

Yeah, you, the one who can't get enough of the big flop?

I've got a proposition for you.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts, and you'll unlock a treasure trove of ad-free episodes and early access to the big flop.

It's like having a secret map to the most notorious corporate catastrophes.

Trust me, it's an offer you can't refuse.

Y'all, I love a mess as much as the next person, and there is nothing messier than a real housewife of wherever.

And even though most of their problems seem super, superficial, it's incredibly entertaining.

I mean, it's not every day that a housewife is caught on camera evading arrest.

You'd think if you're, I don't know, committing fraud, you'd lay low, maybe not become infamous on Bravo for things like what my guests refer to as the famous Top Golf episode.

Let's get into it, besties, because things are about to get shawfully messy.

Now to the federal fraud investigation involving real housewives of Salt Lake City cast member Jen Shaw.

Jennifer Shaw allegedly profited by generating lists of victims to defraud them.

You played not guilty to both charges.

Jen, the brown girl, and her black husband, how do they get all this money?

Oh my gosh, it must be through something illegal.

Jennifer Jennifer Shaw presented herself in court Janae as contrite, remorseful, even prepared to make amends for ruining the lives of thousands of elderly victims.

We

are

on a

same

kingship.

The WNBA playoffs are on the horizon and Tommy Alter's The Young Man in the Three takes you deeper into the action.

Join Tommy for exclusive WNBA Insights as he links links up with the league's biggest stars and dives deep into WNBA playoff matchups and analysis you won't hear anywhere else.

The Young Man in the Three's WNBA playoff coverage is presented by Quest Nutrition.

From irresistibly crunchy protein chips to rich chocolatey protein bars, these treats make giving in feel so good.

Quest, big on protein, low on sugar, huge on flavor.

Shop Quest on Amazon at amazon.com/slash QuestNutrition.

And check out all the WNBA action on the Young Man and the Three, wherever you get your podcasts.

This season, let your shoes do the talking.

Designer Shoe Warehouse is packed with fresh styles that speak to your whole vibe without saying a word.

From cool sneakers that look good with everything to easy sandals you'll want to wear on repeat, DSW has you covered.

Find a shoe for every you from the brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas, New Balance, and more.

Head to your DSW store or visit dsw.com today.

From Wondering and At Will Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time.

I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media's superstar who loves amazing trashy reality TV at your bestie, Misha.

And on our show today, joining us once again, we have the hosts of Watch What Crappens.

It's Ben Manglker and Ronnie Carom.

Welcome to the show, besties.

Hi.

Well, hello, Misha.

How are you?

I'm good.

Are we officially in a thruple?

We are.

It's our third thrupple, too.

It's pair of threes.

It is.

Well, this is the most in a row dates I've been on in a long time.

Okay, so before we get into Jen Shaw, I have to ask, like, how familiar are you with the Real Housewives universe and Jen Shaw's place in it?

We live this.

We've watched every single episode.

We've talked about every single episode for probably three times the amount that the episode actually was on.

So we love this.

Real Housewives of Salt Lake City has given us five wonderful seasons of amazing, iconic moments, both for the gays and the straits.

But Jen Shaw, I mean, you know, it started with Jen Shaw the first three seasons.

And,

you know, she's, she was an emotional journey for sure.

So Jen Shaw is born in Hawaii.

When she's just five years old, her family moves to Utah, where as a Pacific Islander, she's one of the only non-white kids in school.

So throughout her childhood, she's subjected to a lot of racism, a lot of ignorance, but she does still manage to become student body president and varsity cheerleader.

So she didn't let any of that hold her back.

Shah veers away from her family's Mormon lifestyle and picks a secular college, the University of Utah, where she meets her future husband, Sharif Shah, who happens to be black and Muslim, a rarity in her community.

Well, everything's a rarity in their community, Salt Lake City.

But yeah, it is nice at two rare people found each other.

Also, that man is foin.

I was going to say dream boat,

okay?

I mean, not only is he good good looking, but he's like a star football player.

She was a cheerleader.

So I mean, fate, right?

But then at this point in their life, they just have to get their degrees and go live a successful life, easy peasy.

Well, they have a slight setback.

It's a little pregnancy whoopsie, and they decide to get married and have the baby while they're still in college.

Shah's parents don't take this well at all.

Rather than accept Sharif, a non-Mormon, into the family, they disown their own daughter, daughter.

Which, I mean, sad at first, but the family does eventually come around to his gorgeous smile.

And Sharif and Shaw are in love.

It doesn't hurt that Sharif is expected to go on and have a fantastic football career.

So they have everything going for them, really.

Yeah, and that whole family, like just deciding to disown the child.

Like they had no problem using some of that money later because she was supporting that whole family.

So at this point in the story, still Team Shaw.

Even though I know how it turns, you know what a sicko I am?

Yeah, that's who I am.

I'll be on her side till the end.

here's like reframing your entire view of jetten shaw and now you're like wait a second her parents were mean to her i'm totally on her side i'm on her side hey listen you got to put yourself in her shoes at the moment all right you know people in history weren't always bad until they turned you got to wait for the turn that's the fun

So, yeah, I mean, everything was going well for them, but then Sharif does injure his back, so he has to give up his athletic career.

So there's a baby to feed.

Compromises must be made.

Shaw drops out of college to support Sharif Sharif while he gets his law degree, and she hustles any way she knows how.

She's modeling, doing nanny gigs, secretarial work, like whatever she can do.

Eventually, the couple's teamwork pays off, and Sharif becomes an attorney.

It was a steady gig, but he is a civil litigator, which doesn't exactly pay well.

It's not Manhattan attorney by any means.

It's not real housewives' territory.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know how excited I'd be to find out my lawyer that I was assigned was like a football player, only because of the brain stuff, you know,

they get slammed down on their heads a lot.

Like pick another profession, you know, that's, that's dangerous.

Yeah.

Well, it also goes the other way when you like hit your ride to like a future NFL star and then they wind up just being a civil attorney.

You're like, oh, okay.

But, you know, throughout all this, Shaw still, I'm still giving her points because she continues hustling for her man.

She's dabbling in finance and marketing until 2006 when she lands a role at a telemarketing coaching business called Prosper Inc.

And she climbs the ladder at Prosper Inc., becoming director of business development before moving on to her next venture.

So, I mean, are any of those elements, I guess, especially since you know the outcome of this story, are any of those elements surprising to you in her background?

It's kind of interesting.

It's like the origin story for how this all went wrong because we had actually had one of our listeners had once written to us or had come on to our show and said something to the effect that like they knew Jensha 20 years ago.

She was a customer at their bank and she was always this like meek, very lovely person who was very, very quiet.

And she turns into someone who winds up being on the Real Housewives, as you'll discuss, who's not that at all.

So I kind of feel like this must have been the turning point where like she like she saw the matrix and was like, wait a second, there's a world of scamming available to me.

So by 2011, she's moved on to become co-vice president of another company that sells business coaching programs called Thrive Learning.

She works alongside a fella named Stuart Smith.

Oh, and the two become very close business partners.

Prior to Thrive, Smith worked in the bakery section at a Costco, and he also ran a landscape nursery.

So

seems like a decent guy who strangely made a huge unexplained career leap.

A gardener who bakes.

I'm in.

He's single.

Yeah.

You should know from the names of these companies, prosper, bull, thrive, bullshit.

Also, this whole thing, like, I sell coaching programs.

That sounds a lot like all of these, like,

you know, I can teach you to become an influencer overnight.

Yeah.

You know, just sign up for my program.

Anyway, we'll meet Smith again, but for now, back to Shaw and her family.

Everyone's coming up in the world, including Shaw's husband, Sharif, who quits his litigator job in 2012 and gets hired as an assistant college football coach at the University of Utah, making a cool $150K a year.

Not too shabby.

The happy married couple are living that solid middle-class lifestyle, raising two boys, one of whom ends up going to med school, but then...

Trouble.

Not exactly for Shaw, but for some of her former employers.

In 2015, the Federal Trade Commission goes fishing fishing for fraud within telemarketing coaching companies, and they suspect Thrive Learning is one of a slew of fraudulent organizations that sell fake curriculums and sessions to unsuspecting victims and maybe even steal financial information.

What is your fake curriculum in telemarketing?

Yeah, I'm so confused by it all.

Pick up the phone, dial very quickly, ask if you can speak with the lady of the house.

Like,

what kind of lies are they inserting in there?

Now, Thrive, we have to say, doesn't admit to any wrongdoing, but in 2017, they do settle with the FTC for $27 million.

Wow.

That same year, the FTC charges 15 people from other similar companies.

Some of them go to prison.

And a few of these folks have even worked with Shaw and her buddy, Stuart Smith.

It's a close call.

Shaw even gets deposed in one of the cases, and that company settles for $16 million.

But big fish like Shaw and Smith don't get caught in the FTC's net.

So that's because they've left and started their own company called Mastery Pro Group.

Oh, yes.

Listen, that's exactly where I'm turning to.

If I'm going to get some mastery, I'm going to turn to someone who worked in the bakery of Costco and landscaping and then take take classes about how I can improve as a corporate presence.

Well, especially if they just were the only ones who didn't go to prison, I'd be like, well, they, I mean, they're better than the other people.

Like they learned better.

That's true.

I mean, at least that's pretty decent on your resume, actually.

We beat the feds.

Yeah.

What do you think a company named Mastery Pro

would actually do?

I'm going to say it's about like teaching leadership in your position and like how to to how to like effectively organize your company.

I think it's like always learning where the primary bedroom is in a home.

Well,

Ben, you are close, but instead of going after corporations and already established businesses, Master Pro Group purports to sell services to individuals who want to start their own business, but don't know how.

Spoiler, this is a total scam and the services are completely fake.

So now, Shaw has just witnessed what can happen to folks who run such scams.

So, should be a deterrent.

But instead, Shaw thinks she can outsmart the feds by distancing herself from the company that she founds.

And she sets up her ventures in, wait for it, Kosovo.

Oh, Kosovo.

Whoa,

home of mastery.

So she instructs her boy boy, Stuart Smith, to hide the origin of the company and to incorporate it in Wyoming.

So basically offshore, right?

Shaw's aunt opens up a bank account for her niece to use for the business.

She's just doing a nice thing for her niece and has no idea that this is sketchy.

Also, she's never charged with any crimes for doing this.

And eventually, Shaw and Smith set up.

a master pro group headquarters in New York where Shaw will preside over a team of salespeople.

And she goes all in on this business, spending most of her time in New York City, away from her home in Utah.

And being a football coach, her husband Sharif is away on business a lot as well.

So the two experience some turbulence and resentments start to brew.

But in 2018, things are humming along at Mastery Pro until, record scratch, the FTC deposes Shaw's business partner, Stuart Smith, as part of another fraud phishing operation.

Wow.

Shaw, she's calm, cool, collected.

She does not panic.

She's been here before.

Several of her previous employers have been in the hot seat.

So she just texts Smith what he needs to tell the feds to stay out of trouble.

Mostly stuff like, hey, we don't work together.

Got it?

On text.

You've already been chased by the feds.

You already escaped that and now you're texting somebody.

Come on, man.

This is a shame because I thought she was smarter than this like i'm already losing hope well look i i can't believe that she was texting uh stewart all this information and just getting it out there at least she wasn't dumb enough to actually showcase that they work together on tv am i right am i right everyone am i right

she's leaving a paper trail or at least a digital one um she also

instructs her workers over to telegram an encrypted messaging app.

So okay, well, there's some brains.

Okay, we're back in the game, Jensha.

We're back in the game.

Listen, nothing bad happens on Telegram.

Okay, nothing.

Exactly.

Yeah, you're right.

Nothing.

No ripoffs on Telegram.

Never, not once.

So another step the very unguilty Shaw takes is to not get paid by her own company, at least not directly.

As the saying goes, no salary, no taxes.

Instead, Smith pays for everything,

including her New York City apartment.

He's her own personal money laundering service.

Wow.

As it turns out.

So, Shah, she's living and up in New York City, but she's far from family and her marriage is struggling.

So, it might be time for a big life change.

And it just so happens that Bravo is casting for their next real housewives franchise.

So, I mean,

knowing what we know about her, how strong of a candidate is she for this show?

I mean, very strong.

And I mean, there's nothing more hilarious than the idea that you are, you're running like a high-stakes

crime ring that could send you to years in jail and it's worth it's worth sacrificing that all risking it all just that way you could be famous on bravo tv yeah

Looking for an electric SUV that doesn't compromise on space?

Meet the all-new 2026 Ionic 9, Hyundai's first three-row all-electric EV.

Space in an EV.

Finally, with an impressive 335-mile range, this isn't your typical EV.

Go further with up to an estimated 150 miles of charge in just 15 minutes on the Ionic RWD-9S when using a 350-kilowatt DC ultra-fast charger and CCS adapter.

Actual charge time may vary.

Plus, with glass-leading interior space, seven high-powered USB-C ports, and advanced features like highway driving assist 2, every journey is seamless.

And, for peace of mind, there's a 10-year 100,000-mile battery warranty.

Ready to explore more?

Learn more about the Ionic 9 at Hyundaiusa.com.

Call 562-314-4603 for complete details.

Church's Smokehouse Chicken is back, and the block already knows what's up.

The new Smokehouse rub hits every piece of that juicy half-chicken with bold smoky flavor that goes straight to the bone.

Nobody else does it like Church's.

Our recipe served up just for you.

Get it an original or bring the heat with a spicy rub.

Dial it up Texas style with a honey butter biscuit and a spicy jalapeno pepper on the side.

The new dry rub has everybody talking.

Lose yourself in the flavor of Smokehouse Chicken starting at $5.99.

Order online or in store, only at churches.

Price and participation may vary tax extra US only.

So, it's the late 2010s and Bravo TV is firing on all cylinders.

They think Salt Lake City, which is is sort of a mystery to most TV viewers, would make a fun backdrop for a new show.

And as we've discussed, Jen Shaw is the perfect candidate.

So they put out a call, and Jen Shaw happily pitches herself.

Yes, she might live in New York City right now, but she was raised in Utah.

She's a self-made woman of color in predominantly white spaces.

She's got the Rags to Riches story, a multi-million dollar house they can film in, add a touch of mystery, flamboyance.

You got yourself a gig, girl.

So in her audition tape, Shaw brags that she makes millions, adding, quote, I probably spend at least 50 grand a month.

And then in a podcast interview, she later corrects herself, saying that the 50K is just her monthly clothing budget.

Oh,

not that she has a budget, per se.

It's also not clear how she makes millions, but it's probably fine.

Sure, it's just some hard work.

By the bootstraps, just getting out there and doing the damn thing.

Yeah, good investing.

Good investing strategies.

Good investing.

So in the audition tape, her own husband Sharif warns producers, I'm telling you, boys, she's two types of crazy.

Unfortunately, that is just what the producers are looking for, and she is cast for the show.

She is hoping that the show will be a great opportunity and a good excuse to return to Utah where she can work on her marriage.

The rest of the cast is comprised of rich and glamorous Utah beauties, such as Heather Gay, a lapsed Mormon and everyone's best friend, Lisa Barlow, a chic marketing whiz and tequila magnate, Whitney Rose, who tells it like it is.

We also have Meredith Marks, who upon first glance might just be Lisa Barlow from a different angle.

Yes.

And then we have Mary Cosby, the lady who married her own grandfather.

Step-grandfather, but yeah.

Yeah,

for the record, it's her grandmother's second husband.

Yeah.

The fourth most scandalous thing on this list here.

It's like, oh, and then her, yeah, she has a cult,

married her, her grandmother's husband.

Okay, yeah, going on.

Yeah.

So the show airs November 11th, 2020, and it's a hit.

The cast is as wackadoo as anyone could have hoped for.

Here's a clip that I saw that I am still processing.

It's with Mary Cosby, Whitney Rose, and Rose's children.

I'm so tired.

One of the members in our church, like one of their daughter, like had a crash.

When

like last night, and she was ejected from the sunroof and fell down into a neighborhood

30 feet, drop off the freeway.

Is she still alive?

No.

I'm excited to be here.

Wear your seatbelt.

Mary Cosby.

Mary Cosby is a classic.

Yeah.

Wait a seat belt.

So, yeah, Shaw bursts onto the scene as the outspoken housewife who oozes excess and gives no Fs.

Now, maybe to cover for her lack of credentials, Shaw has a lot of catchphrases on the show, the most important one being Shaw amazing.

She wears open-toe heels in the snow, tastefully paired with Versace purses, of course.

And she and her family share a five-bed, eight-bath, seven-million dollar plus palatial home in upscale Park City, Utah, where a flowerbed spells out the words Sha Chalet in hot pink petals.

And crucially, there is no explanation as to how the Shahs can afford to live like this, but we'll get there.

Shah also employs a fleet of stylists and assistants who not only make her look Shah amazing, but also help her stage dress rehearsals for parties, clapping for Shaw as she models her outfits.

But there is one member of the Shaw squad, yes, she calls them that, who has outsized importance.

In episode one, Stuart Smith, who's identified as Shaw's personal and business assistant, is introduced.

We remember him.

She really likes to demean him.

I have like a memory of her like feeding him a banana and she calls him her monkey, right?

Oh,

she does.

Did that happen, Ronnie?

Like she fed him a banana?

Sounds like me.

Sounds like it.

In his first appearance, Smith drives Shaw to a Botux appointment in Shah's Porsche and runs around after her with a baggie full of beef jerky, which that sounds amazing.

If you had an assistant, what would always be in your baggie?

M ⁇ Ms.

You need M ⁇ Ms every time.

That sounds good.

It's all I need.

Tates, cookies.

Occasionally some starbursts if I'm feeling healthy and need free.

Just a little bit of fruit.

Love that.

A cold brew.

Just a cold brew ready for me.

At all times.

So on the show, Stuart Smith appears to be Shaw's loyal bagman, and she appears to be a very important person.

But again, exactly how is Shaw actually financing her fabulous lifestyle?

She's spending ill-gotten gains from her telemarketing business is how she's doing it.

But the audience couldn't know that.

They're focused on the messy character Shaw seems to be.

Now, for what it's worth, the Shaw squad seems to genuinely hate being there.

Her former designer later admits that working for Shaw is like babysitting a 48-year-old.

Throughout the entire first season of Housewives, the producers are getting a lot of juicy drama in the form of screaming fights and nasty tantrums.

So let's take a quick look at Jen's highlight reel.

Who the f says that?

That's like looking at a little baby with cancer and saying, oh, oh you you smell like cancer friends and whitney roll your mother eyes and look over there one more time i will drown you'll get

mary as crazy dress the f the felt married those top golf okay dry not to film married i don't give a f do you understand i am care that's her son running away horrified by the way yes

that's her son that's it that's at charity's birthday party with all of sharice family and friends yeah yeah that's the top golf for the famous top golf episode nutcase Yeah.

Yeah.

So by the end of the first season, viewers start to openly wonder, besides being nuts, what does this lady do for a living?

And they're not alone.

During the season one reunion, messy girl Andy Cohen tries to get Shaw to admit where her money actually comes from on camera.

He asks, why does she need four assistance besides, you know, clapping for her?

Shaw's non-response, they all have different roles at all of the important companies that she runs.

And she is asked to explain what those companies do, quote,

my background is in direct response marketing for about 20 years.

So our company does advertising.

We have a platform that helps people acquire customers.

So when you're shopping online or on the internet and something pops, we have the algorithm behind why you're getting served that ad.

Yeah.

It's clear to me, very clear to me.

Business synergies, et cetera.

Yeah.

But neither the cast members nor the viewing audience is satisfied with Sha's explanation.

So in an Access Hollywood interview, Shaw, she gives it another go.

Quote, I have three different marketing companies and we do lead generation, data monetization, customer acquisition.

The best way to describe it is, I'm the Wizard of Oz.

I'm the one behind the curtain that no one knows exists, but I'm the one making everything happen.

Oh, God.

You have to think about the words coming out of your mouth mouth when you're a criminal.

And who wants to be the wizard of Oz?

He was a big fraud.

Hello, did you see the end of that movie?

Hello, spoiler aware.

Bad dude.

This really reminds me of when people, like when criminals go on to Wheel of Fortune and then are surprised when they get arrested.

It's like, you're on the run.

Why are you on TV right now?

How could she go on extra?

Maybe this is just a statement about extra.

Maybe she just believes no one watches extra and so she can just say these things.

But how could you admit that you are the wizard of Oz when you are literally like the Wizard of Oz in a fraud ring?

How could you do that?

Yeah, I mean, I think also on top of that, especially with fame, like she's a problematic character.

They might be seeing the writing on the wall, but she seems to have convinced enough people or at least enough people making the show that her story is solid and worth risking it because she does get signed on to do more seasons.

And I, you know, if like, if her lies were that transparent, you know, I think other people

also are a little culpable in letting her continue.

They love that.

Yeah, exactly.

They love that.

They love this stuff for sure.

Yeah, they love this stuff.

They're going to keep hiring you.

I mean, if anything, that gives them more reason to hire her.

Uh-huh.

So, I mean, it was win-win for all of them at the moment.

She loves attention.

They love money.

But as we're alluding to, everybody,

if you're going to do crimes, don't go on TV.

Or if you're going to go on TV, don't commit crimes.

Either way.

Keep them separated.

Yeah.

Or do it better.

Be a role model.

Learn how to commit crimes and get away with it, for Christ's sake.

We need a better hero.

Yeah, there we go.

So in March of 2021, for the middle of season two, the cast of Salt Lake City films their departure scene for a big ski trip in Vale, Colorado.

And they're outside the beauty lab, a clinic owned by one of the other castmates, Heather Gay.

And Shaw, decked out in leopard print and ready to have some fun in a Bavarian-themed fortress, receives a mysterious phone call.

The mood shifts.

Let's take a quick look at what happens.

Hi, baby.

Hi.

Okay.

I have some bad news.

I need to go.

I just got a phone call and Shreve Sr.

has internal bleeding.

Wait, no.

Do you have to go?

Yeah.

There it is.

Internal bleeding.

Internal bleeding.

Fleeing the scene.

don't, what you're not seeing in that clip is that she gets the call that the Fez are on their way.

So she's going to, she's going to motor out of there.

But because she tells everyone that there's internal bleeding, Heather Gay kind of corners her and is like, oh my God, is everything okay?

Do you need me to come?

Are you sure?

Is everything okay?

And Jensha has this look on her face, like, please get out of my face.

I need to get out of here as soon as possible.

I'm about to be arrested on camera.

And Heather's like, How about, should I make you a casserole?

Do you need me to take care of the kids?

And she's just like, she's like, uh-uh, no, I'm fine.

I'm fine.

I'm fine.

I just got to go.

I just got gotta go.

She did need to get out of there because it was within 15 minutes that the rest of the cast hears helicopters coming.

They see Homeland Security and the NYPD arrive on the scene.

And of course, this is all being filmed and will later appear on Bravo.

The van, full of clueless housewives, is swarmed by cops.

But since this is trashy reality TV, a couple of them guess these people might be strippers.

There is that concern.

yes they thought they were strippers i forgot that

but they're clearly not strippers uh they're real law enforcement officers and the housewives are just trying to piece this all together let's take a look should i just call jen and tell her that they just came here i don't think you should i don't think you should

you guys what if she's on the run

like get a head start

i mean i would want her to tell me

police swat

police officers showed up looking for Jen Shaw.

I don't think she is in the hospital, but thanks, Levi.

Wait, you think, call Sharif.

You think she got a tip-off call that this was happening and left?

All right, yeah.

Yeah, that's what happened.

She got a tip-off call.

I mean, I'm so jealous of these people who live in a place where their cops show up and they think they might be strippers.

That is not what I think on my cops show up.

Same.

There's so much in that clip that I

am so confused about.

And and or love.

I love that she was like, give her a head start.

I was like, that's a real rider top.

That's her friend.

And she stuck with her right until the end.

Yeah.

Really, until that woman was in jail.

And then she felt safe, I guess, to start mad mouthing her.

But I mean, she was with her right up until the very end.

That one.

But yeah, also like the fact, could you imagine also living a life where your friend just says, my husband has internal bleeding.

I have an emergency at the hospital.

I have to go.

And 15 minutes later, you're swarmed by feds and police officers and you can't imagine that the two are not related that these two wildly like dramatic events happened to Jen Shaw independently yeah the best part is when they're sitting there and they're just like idly chatting and you see they're just having chit-chat about who knows what and in the background in the windows you start to see like FBI and you start to see Homeland Security and they're just like nattering away and we all know what's happening but like that there's like these subtle like clues in the background windows it It is truly like one of the, it was one of the most compelling scenes that Bravo has ever aired.

Crazy.

So of course they get all the answers pretty quickly through social media.

They find out that Shaw's in big trouble.

So is Stuart Smith, her dating assistant.

They're being charged with fraud.

She could get 30 years in prison.

Again, they're still in a van on their way to a party house.

Cast member Whitney Rose seems to understand exactly what is going on.

She is apparently the resident expert on illegal business, and she'll explain it to the audience.

Let's watch a clip where she breaks down the fraud charges.

So, when you buy data, you can actually select what demographic you want.

So, they would select vulnerable people, people who have disabilities, people who are elderly,

who maybe aren't in the best state of mind, like don't have the best

decision making because they're old, alone, and

vulnerable.

Yes, they buy that data and sell to them fake, fake.

Get them on a subscription, get their credit card charged every month, and they can't get off of it.

Whitney's taking notes.

Yeah.

So, what do you, what do you do?

She's like, God, God.

Here's where they made missteps.

Okay, let me just write that down.

Hearing her say vulnerable so many times is also really special.

Vulnerable.

Vulnerable.

Vulnerable.

Vulnerable.

Vulnerable.

Vulnerable.

Vulnerable.

Vulnerable.

Hey, football fans, Gillette's best shave has a new look this season, and it's looking smooth.

Almost as smooth as my voice.

We're talking about the new collection of Gillette Labs' official NFL licensed razors, featuring the team colors and logos of 12 NFL franchises.

These razors are a must-have for fans that want to experience the confidence and pride of game day every day.

With Gillette's best blades and flex disc technology, Gillette Labs lasts 50% longer on average compared to Fusion 5.

So get it while you can, online or at a retailer near you.

Gillette's best shave is now the best a fan can get.

Gillette Labs, also available in Heated.

Gillette is a paid partner of the New Heights podcast.

It's here, your long-awaited PTO.

You pack up, grab your sunscreen, walk out the door, and stick the key under the mat.

Just one problem.

You're being safe, ish.

You know, safe-ish.

It's those little tricks that don't actually keep us safe, like the key under the mat or the old leaving the lights on routine.

For true peace of mind, sit back and let ADT's technicians install a security system customized for your home with features like 24/7 monitoring and cameras you can check from your phone.

So go ahead, break in those new flip-flops.

And whatever you do, don't settle for safe-ish.

Visit ADT.com to find out more.

Now, for bravo, this scene obviously makes for great television.

But meanwhile, off camera, in real life, Shaw doesn't get very far after she leaves the set of the housewives.

The cops ping her location and arrest her on the side of the road, and she's driven to a federal building and brought into a break room.

She's handcuffed to a chair, must be terrified, mortified.

And before being questioned for over an hour, Shaw signs a form waiving her right to an attorney.

Obviously, she's not thinking straight.

Is it because her husband really is in the hospital?

Or is it because, I don't know, her contacts are dry and she can't read the documents that she's signing?

Yeah, as the contacts are dry.

Later, she says it's both.

Yep.

She tried to get out of it saying they couldn't arrest her because they wouldn't give her saline solution.

And so that made, that made this a fraudulent arrest.

I mean, that woman, she'll try.

She tried it.

She tried it.

You have to.

You got to go for it.

Yeah.

Jen Shaw tells the feds, there's been a mistake.

She's done nothing wrong.

And to prove it, she'll agree to a trial, no plea deal.

Strange choice.

Yeah.

You're going to federal court.

This is not criminal court.

This is federal court.

They line their ducks up before they take you down.

I think she kept thinking that Stewart wasn't going to turn.

She just really thought she was, she does, she did scare people.

So they would do anything to stay on her good side.

And I think she had everybody so scared that she thought that little wuss is never going to turn on me because he knows I'll ruin his life.

I'll go after his family, all of this other stuff.

Like a mob movie.

Well, I think she thought he wasn't going to flip on her, but also she could flip on him and throw him under the bus.

Yeah, she always had that.

You know, because he must have been doing all the bad stuff, right?

Without her knowledge,

which is exactly what her lawyers claimed, you know, or it was her employees.

Either way, she had nothing to do with it, but that was gonna be hard to prove because,

well, let's play a clip that Ben might remember.

I feed you while you work.

While you make me money, I feed you.

We're adding more people.

I just had to get second pass out.

That's good.

It's a good day.

Okay, make money, eat your banana.

Maybe I added in the monkey part, but

we make so much stuff up on our own show to just improvise the scenes that we end up not really

remembering what was real.

I know, but I do remember banana.

But that way, you are right.

So on April 2nd, 2021, the judge presiding over Shaw's case calls her bluff and sets her bail at $1 million,

which she'll owe in its entirety if she flees.

And to secure her bond and leave jail, she'll need $250,000 in cash or property.

But finding that kind of money is going to be a challenge because unlike Smith, who uses his house to secure his bond, Shaw doesn't own her home.

That's right.

The lavish mansion in the series is a rental.

Her Porsche, it's leased.

Outside of the alleged telemarketing scams, Shaw's only income is from the Housewife Show.

So,

Andy, can I get a cash advance?

Yeah, she ended.

No, she ended up getting it from her mom.

She took her mom's retirement account to do it.

And there's a scene with her and her mom, and her mom's crying.

And she's like, okay, Okay, Jen, I mean, I'll do anything for you.

And she's like, You know, I'm innocent, mom.

So just, you know, thank you so much, but you know, I'm innocent.

Just pay the money.

And

so, you know, at least she didn't draw a line.

I mean, she screwed over a lot of elderly people, but at least she screwed over her own mom, too.

So it was fair.

Yeah, her mom was not a part of her scheme at all.

She was never charged with any crimes or anything.

She was just another one of the people that Jen took advantage of.

Yeah, it was fair.

Yeah, the trial is then set for October of 2021.

Now, COVID protocols keep delaying it.

But that just gives Shaw more time to be on housewives and to come up with ways to defend herself.

Because, yes, she is still on the show while awaiting her trial, everyone.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

One way her lawyers think they can get a dismissal is by claiming that Shaw didn't mean to waive her Miranda rights and not have her lawyer present during interrogation because, you know, because of the blurry context.

Yep.

But that motion is quickly denied.

By the time season two of Salt Lake City even airs, people have read in the news that Jen Shaw has been arrested and charged with fraud.

So she works her storyline into the opening tagline.

Do you remember what it was?

I don't.

What was it?

Well, we have a clip.

The only thing I'm guilty of is being Sha Mazing.

Shamazing.

Shamazing.

All right.

Sha amazing.

Shaamazing.

Of course.

Oh, my God.

Shaw not only agrees to have meetings with her lawyer filmed for television, she continues to discuss her legal situation on camera until the moment she leaves the show.

Now, we at the Big Flop do not recommend having your legal battles be the subject of reality TV, but in this case, it might be Shaw's only way of making a legitimate income when she needs the money.

So let's watch a clip from season two, episode 11.

What I have been accused of is

absolutely

the complete opposite of anything I would ever do in my life.

If I have any fault, it is because I am too giving and I help too many people.

Yeah.

Such a giver, you guys.

It's a micro.

It's not my fault.

I'm perfect.

I'm sorry.

Just wants to help people start businesses.

Throw me in town.

Throw me in perfection.

Yeah, I'm just trying to help you become a boss, babe, just like me.

Yeah.

But it's now very hard to make the argument that she's innocent of fraud.

Not only are there tons of clips showing her contradicting herself, but the investigation into Shaw's Shah shady businesses have been going on for years.

The feds even have a witness who's brought them recordings of Smith explaining how the scams all work.

And then there's the physical evidence.

After the feds raid her house, they find over a hundred luxury items like Chanel Couture and Louis Vuitton handbags.

Incredibly, most of them are fake.

Tea.

So we've gotten some hints as to what Jensha and Stuart Smith might be doing, but as the case against them is brought, more details emerge.

The type of scheme Shaw and Smith might be running, the one Whitney Rose talked about in the van, is called BizOp.

And it is in fact a coaching scheme, just like the type of thrive learning Shaw's previous employer was accused of running.

Basically, vulnerable people who want to start a business are identified through online activities, like by clicking the shady passive income ads on websites or responding to strangers on LinkedIn.

Now, these folks, nicknamed leads, are then called up by telemarketers and sold a bunch of services to make their work-from-home dreams come true.

Services like marketing advice, web design, seminars, or even help with business credit applications.

At best, the telemarketers collect payments and then ghost the would-be business owners without ever offering them the help they wanted.

At worst, the biz ops continue to sell the victims' personal information after they ghost them.

Shaw went for the worst option.

Of course.

Yeah.

Of course.

After bleeding tens of thousands of dollars from retirees who wanted to understand the internet better, she then sold these leads to larger fraud rings, who kept pestering these people until they were completely out of money.

All this so Shaw could buy gaudy ski wear and fake handbags.

Even though Shaw has been charged, they keep making seasons with her.

So in November of 2021, during season three filming, Shaw gets the shocker of a lifetime.

Smith, her partner in crime, changes his plea to guilty.

He admits to conspiracy to commit wire fraud, money laundering, and obstruction of justice.

And he is in a lot of trouble because in addition to committing a bunch of crimes, he also spent a few months lying which is perjury in a separate crime so he could get up to 70 years in prison

now you've watched enough tv crime dramas i'm sure what can he do to help himself he could turn on jen shaw dang ding dang

yes smith agrees to testify against shaw so his sentence will now come after shaw's trial now on the show shaw is confronted by her bestie heather gay who wants to know how Shaw feels about Stuart flipping on her.

Also, Meredith Marks is there to fill out the shot, I guess.

Let's take a look.

Stuart's a piece of.

And you know what?

He can play the, oh, I'm little Stuart Smith.

No, bitch, you're an evil mother.

And you played me.

I would not be in this thing at all if it wasn't for Stuart.

Stuart

played me.

Oh, I wouldn't be in this thing at all.

Oh, I thought you weren't in anything.

I thought you weren't doing anything.

What are you talking about?

Now you're in a huge crime ring that you only were in because Stewie made you do it?

Oh, poor Jen.

So easy to manipulate.

And that was, by the way, when she was in New York.

Wasn't that when she was getting ready for sentencing, Ben?

When they all went to New York or when those three went to New York and Meredith and Heather went to support her?

I mean, that's like right when she was about to go downdown.

Yeah.

And she's still talking like this.

Like, girl.

Yeah.

Right up to the very, very, very end.

Like the night before, she was denying on camera.

It was crazy.

Yeah.

Bethany Frankl once famously said on Real Housewives of New York, you can't be smart and stupid at the same time.

And that's what Jensha is trying to do.

She's trying to be smart and stupid.

Oh, I didn't realize this would happen.

And yet she's also proclaiming that she's the smartest person in the room.

So, you know, you're either the, you're either the wizard of Oz on extra TV or you're incredibly, incredibly naive.

And we all know which one one she is.

Yeah.

Now, it's no secret that the housewife seasons are filmed long in advance and heavily edited.

So these conversations aren't necessarily relevant to the court case as it unfolds, but there is a documentary that airs on Hulu in December of 2021 in the middle of the legal battle that might cause some problems for Shaw's defense.

It's called The Housewife and the Shaw Shocker.

So I don't know.

Is there a better name for the special?

I don't know.

Yeah, what was Erica's called?

The Housewife and the hustler, right?

Yeah, the housewife and the hustler was Erica and Tom's, and then they made one for Jay.

They kind of ran out of puns there.

They were like, hmm, the housewife and the shot and the shock.

It's the shock, shock, shock, shocker.

We'll go with it.

Yeah.

Well, the shot aucker is a 45-minute oral history of the situation, mostly clips of the show and folks who've been in Shaw's orbit with opinions on the scandal, like Shaw's aunt.

She files to have her case dismissed on the basis that the Hulu documentary violates her right to a fair trial.

Shaw's legal team argues that there won't be an untainted jury pool with a documentary available for anyone to watch ahead of the trial.

Han, it's Hulu.

I don't know.

I think she's maybe overstating her importance.

It's not like this.

This was not the OJ trial.

Okay.

This was, we're not breaking away from any playoff games to watch Jen Shaw walk into a courthouse.

Okay.

Like, yeah, still a lot of people have no idea who she is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you got to love somebody going down for screwing over old people, old defenseless old people, you know, crying about fairness.

Like, shut up.

Just shut up.

And the judge agrees because they deny the request.

So the walls truly start closing in.

Shaw's been publicly claiming she's been innocent for so long, she might even believe it.

But she's out of money, out of lawyers, out of options.

After the motion to dismiss the case per the Hulu documentary is denied, two of her lawyers peace out.

Meanwhile, Shaw's new trial date of July 2022 is fast approaching.

So one week before her trial is scheduled to begin, Shaw pleads guilty to conspiracy to commit wire fraud.

Now, right around this time, the season three reunion is around the corner and fans cannot wait to hear what she has to say about all this.

But unfortunately, she won't be there.

On Instagram, Shaw states that Bravo did not invite her and then did, but only if she'd be willing to discuss her legal case.

But taking her remaining lawyer's excellent advice, she declines.

Do you think committing fraud helps or hurts your reality TV career?

I think it helps.

It helps, unfortunately.

She'll be hired the second she's out of there.

Uh-huh.

She'll be brought back.

If that show's still on, which it probably will be, she will be brought back the second that she's gone.

Yeah.

I agree.

At the 2022 BravoCon, Andy Cohen hints that Jen Shaw will not be returning for a fourth season.

Quote, once we rap, she pled guilty.

I think that was kind of, unfortunately, the end of, you know, the engagement there.

After Cohen's statement, Shaw briefly lashes out on social media, quote, you will not take my voice.

I have a lot to say, lies to correct, and people to put in their place.

Hashtag coming soon, hashtag Bravo TV, hashtag R-H-O-S-L-C, hashtag equality, hashtag P-O-C.

She also daringly borrows a phrase from activist Malala, quote, I raise up my voice not so that I can shout, but so that those without a voice can be heard.

We cannot all succeed when half of us are held back.

I raise up my voice not so that I can shout, but so that I can get your social security number and your date of birth.

Give it to me.

Yeah.

So on January 6th, 2023, Shaw arrives for her sentencing in New York City.

And so do a lot of fans and onlookers.

In fact, the courtroom is at full capacity.

In exchange for pleading guilty to conspiracy, the money laundering charges are dropped.

The judge also softens the blow regarding prison time.

Prosecutors want to send would-be scammers a message and to throw the book at Shaw with a 10-year sentence.

The judge gives her only six and a half years.

Otherwise, there's very little leniency.

Shaw must pay $6.5 million in forfeiture and $9.5 $9.5 million in restitution to victims.

Wow, but she didn't have that, right?

But she did not have that.

Yeah, where does that come from?

Where are they going to get that money?

Right.

That's the question.

She says she vows to repay the victims, but how?

Because without the biz op scam, she's limited to what she can make from television and general publicity, like her free Jen Shaw campaign merch.

I'm sure that did well.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

Broke the internet with that one.

Uh-huh.

Before surrendering to Texas's Brian federal prison camp in February 2023, Shaw gets her husband's and two sons' names tattooed on her arm.

What every son wants, his mom to get a prison tat.

As he's trying to go forward in medical school, yeah.

Well, let's do a little, where are they now?

So Jen Shaw promised to turn over a new leaf.

And you know what?

It seems like she has been doing that.

She seems to really be working on herself.

In prison, she started a fitness and cosmetology class, a real curriculum, real coaching.

Yes.

Who wants to learn their makeup from Jenshaw?

Have you seen her makeup?

Shady boots.

Who's going to that class?

I don't know.

Her good behavior has led to two sentence reductions.

So she'll get out in November of 2026, just around the corner.

You know, she also did a real housewives play in prison.

She like directed a real housewives play.

She got all the inmates to do one.

Really?

Isn't that funny?

So she's also a director now, you guys.

It's on her resume.

She's also made friends in prison.

One of them is notorious scammer and big flop alum Elizabeth Holmes.

Yes.

Yep.

Future real housewife.

Well, maybe, but we are hoping that their friendship will blossom into something constructive because that pairing could literally destroy entire economies.

Yeah, no kidding.

Put those two together.

Those two will come up with a business together.

Watch.

Watch.

Yeah.

Stuart Smith, he's still in prison, but he only received a nine-month sentence, which began in January of 2025.

So if he gets out on schedule, that gives him over a year's head start to get to safety before a very fit Jen Shaw comes after him.

I was going to say, get the gang back together.

You know, you get Jen and Elizabeth and Stuart, and they're going to hatch the big one.

This is just, listen, I've seen the usual suspects.

You know, a little stint in jail that just sets you up for the big stint, you know, the big, the big heists.

As you both know, here on the big flop, we try to be positive people and end on a high.

So are there any silver linings that came about from Jen Shaw?

Yes, which is that

Jen Shaw going off to prison opened the door for The Real House.

So I have to bring in Monica, which gave us one of our greatest seasons ever.

And then Monica begat our latest season of season five, which was even better.

So in many ways, Jen Shaw cleared the way for better TV for us.

And that's the only silver lighting I can really think.

Oh, and that she's out of the general public.

Well, yeah.

Well, hopefully she taught some elderly people to stop doing that, you know,

stop trying to start businesses from people they find on, you know, a message from LinkedIn or whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I will say maybe, maybe she will be rehabilitated.

And if she does get put back on the show and starts making that bravo money again, hopefully some of the victims will get their restitution.

There you go that is a nice silver lining there we go well now that you both know about jen shaw's history of scamming would you consider this a baby flop a big flop or a mega flop well it's a mega flop mega flop to me this scam was so huge i i don't think that people really realized that this was like i mean this was an across state lines a web of people i mean lots of resources went into this this is a multi-million dollar complicated scheme this was not just some

some thing that she was behind on bills for.

This was a really, really, really big deal.

So big mega flop for me.

And, you know, also mega flop as far as scamming goes, because you flopped at that business really hard.

I mean, texting all your criminal activity and just, she just went about it poorly.

She got telegrammed too late.

So I'd just say, as far as criminal, you know, as far as criminal activity, that was a big flop.

I could at least be a fan if you were good at the stealing, you know?

You know?

Credit where credit's credit's due.

That's right.

Yeah.

Well, thanks to our Shamazing guests, Ben Manduker and Ronnie Garum, for joining us here on the Big Flop.

And of course, thanks to all of you for listening and watching.

If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating or review or a subscribe.

And we'll be back next week with another flop.

I mean, sure, technically what these young entrepreneurs were doing was copyright infringement, but they made music so much more accessible.

That's right.

We're talking about the OG mover and shaker of the music sharing world, Napster.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

If you like the big flop, you can listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and At-Will Media, hosted by Misha Brown.

Produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner.

Written by Anna Rubinova and Luke Burns.

Engineered by Zach Rapone.

With support from Andrew Holzberger.

The video podcast is edited by Olivia Vessel.

Managing producer is Molly Getman.

Executive producers are Kate Walsh and Will Malnotte for At Will Media.

Legal support by Carolyn Levin of Miller, Korzynik, Summers, and Raymond.

Senior producers for Wondery are Adam Azaraff, Matt Beagle, and Jennifer Klein Walker.

Managing producer is Sarah Mathis, and the senior managing producer is Callum Plus.

Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freesong Sync.

Theme song is Sinking Ship by Cake.

Executive producers are Lizzie Bassett, Dave Easton, and Marshall Louie for Wondering.

On Boxing Day 2018, 20-year-old Joy Morgan was last seen at her church, Israel United in Christ, or IUIC.

I just went on my Snapchat and I just see her face plastered everywhere.

This is The Missing Sister, the true story of a woman betrayed by those she trusted most.

IUIC is my family and like the best family that I've ever had.

But IUIC isn't like most churches.

This is a devilish cult.

You know when you get that feeling where you're just, I don't want to be here.

I want to get out.

It's like that feeling of, like, I want to go hang out.

I'm Charlie Brentcoast Cuff and after years of investigating Joy's case, I need to know what really happened to Joy.

Binge all episodes of The Missing Sister exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus.

Start your free trial of Wondery Plus on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or in the Wondery app.