Nipplegate: Janet Jackson's Super Bowl Slip Up with Dylan Adler and Akilah Hughes | 51

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Jim Steeg is the party planner for America's biggest national holiday.

No, not July 4th.

The Super Bowl.

For 24 years, he's been the NFL's director of special events.

Football, extravaganzas, NFL tours, concerts, charity galas.

Jim runs them all.

He's even the mastermind who introduced celebrities into the mix by inviting Diana Ross to sing the national anthem in 1982.

He signed Michael freaking Jackson to do the halftime show in 93.

And now, Jim's preparing for the grandest halftime spectacle yet, featuring MTV's hottest artists and Michael's sister, Janet.

Miss Jackson, if you're nasty.

Here's the thing though.

The halftime show can't be too sexy.

It's 2004 and America is in the middle of a post-9-11 conservative fervor.

But Jim's on it, like always.

That's why he's also signing wholesome pretty boy Justin Timberlake.

Justin and Janet are going to add that tasteful sort of sexy to the halftime show that'll keep the young fans hooked and the old fans delightfully unoffended.

Jim's 25th Super Bowl will be flawless, as always.

But he still double checks his to-do list.

You know, sound, lighting, wardrobe.

Gotta make sure nothing malfunctions.

After all, being unprepared makes him feel a bit, well,

exposed.

The infamous 2004 Super Bowl halftime show, it all ending with a wardrobe malfunction and an FCC investigation.

I should not have to use an NFL halftime show as a negative example to teach my children.

Jackson allegedly banned from other appearances and removed from projects.

When things are bad, it's always important to have someone to blame.

Do you think that Justin Timberlake left you hanging out there?

We are

on a single king ship.

From Wondery and at Will Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time.

I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar and part of the Rhythm Nation at Don't Cross a Gay Man.

And today, we're covering, or uncovering, rather, Nipplegate, aka the 2004 Super Bowl nip slip that almost destroyed Janet Jackson's career.

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What if I told you that the crime of the century is happening right now?

From coast to coast, people are fleeing flames, wind, and water.

Nature is telling us, I can't take this anymore.

These are the stories we need to be telling about our changing planet.

Stories of scams, murders, and cover-ups, and the things we're doing to either protect the Earth or destroy it.

This is Lawless Planet.

Follow Lawless Planet on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

On our show today, we have a writer and comedian and host of the Rebel Spirit podcast, which just made its debut.

It's Akeelah Hughes.

Welcome to the show.

Hi.

Thank you so much for having me.

Also on our show today is a comedian, an actor, and writer.

It's Dylan Adler.

You can catch him on his comedy tour, House of Dylan, now through September 13th.

Welcome to the show, Dylan.

Thank you for having me.

I'm excited to be here.

Oh my gosh, me too.

So now forget the commercials.

When you watch the Super Bowl, are you watching for the game or the halftime show?

Well, it depends.

Mostly halftime.

But if my team is in i'm a bengals fan

i will watch for so you know it has it's been a few years since i'm giving a about any of that um but yeah i love halftime halftime i think is the most important 15 minutes in entertainment i'm from san francisco so my family's big san francisco 69er fan situation so whenever that whenever they're i'm watching it with them rooting for them but other than that definitely halftime is where it's at.

Do you have any favorite halftime shows in years?

Probably.

Oh, my gosh.

How much time do you have?

I mean, okay.

But I think, you know, obviously Beyoncé,

she spices up.

I mean, her own was perfect, but also the Cold Play one, which people forget was Cold Play.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

It was Cold Play.

That's right.

It was Cold Play, but it was really Bruno Mars and Beyoncé.

Yes, yes.

I loved Rihanna's and I loved Shakira and Jennifer Lopez's as well.

Oh, that was hot.

I thought they just put on such an incredible show.

Yes.

Well, the 2004 Super Bowl halftime show, where pop star Justin Timberlake revealed Janet Jackson's breast to millions on live TV later broke the internet record for the most searched event in one day.

Wow.

Yeah.

So the questions of whether it was a malfunction or an intentional stunt and who was to blame dominated the news cycle.

It was the most watched, recorded, and replayed video clip in TiVo history and led to around 35,000 new subscribers to the service.

You're welcome, TiVo.

Oh, my God.

They were like, the next time there's a nipple coming, I'm going to be ready.

Absolutely.

And that was the last we heard of TiVo.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Janet Jackson also became the most searched person and term between 2004 and 2005.

Wow.

Yeah.

So it was big.

It was everywhere.

What do you remember at this time?

So I was in high school.

I had skipped a few grades.

So I wasn't like, I'm young.

Please get that clip.

But

I was watching it.

And Justin Timberlake had a huge album that year.

Janet was like crushing it.

And it just felt like these two superstars coming together, like a huge cultural event that we were all already prepared to be talking about the next day at school.

Well, Nipplegate sparked a national conversation about decency, censorship, and much later, America's double standards when it comes to women and people of color specifically.

That important conversation almost came at the cost of Janet Jackson's career.

So Janet Demita Joe Jackson, born in 1966, is the youngest sibling of the Jackson family, a music dynasty ruled over over by her father, Joe Jackson.

Yeah.

Joe Jackson is, of course, the mastermind behind the Jackson 5 and Michael Jackson's launchpad.

As a small child, at age seven, she performs with her brothers and sisters, outshining even her more seasoned family members.

And then at age 11, she begins a prosperous acting career.

She's only 15 when she and her father, Joe, sign her first record deal, and together they produce two bubblegum pop albums.

Mid.

Mid.

Truly.

You know, she had not come into her own.

She needed to manage it.

Yeah, fuck, fuck, Joe sucks.

Fuck Joe.

Yeah, Joe's a terrible, famously an unreasonable person.

Yes, yes.

Although her career is on the rise, Janet does ditch Papa Joe.

Yeah.

And then strikes out on her own in 1986 when she's 20.

And from that point on, she is an unstoppable force.

She's self-actualized, super sexy, proudly black, and along with artists like Madonna, unabashedly feminist.

And the world, they're just eating her up.

Janet sells so many albums.

She helps the owner of Virgin Records, Richard Branson, buy a private island.

That's great.

Yes.

Exactly.

I mean, I don't know if that's like a great thing, but I'm happy for them.

Yeah.

What do you personally love about about janet or do you have any favorite albums oh my gosh oh i personally my favorite janet song is together again

And I just love, yes.

She wrote it about her gay bestie who unfortunately passed.

And it sounds like a girl singing about her gay bestie.

It's like, when I'm in heaven, I'm going to see you, bitch.

You know, it's, and

literally, that's what it sounds like.

And it's just, it makes me emotional when I hear it.

And it's also makes you want to dance.

That's actually like, I mean, that's a great pick.

I would say, like, that era for her, too, was like when she was just different color hair, cool dancing, sexiest.

I mean, it would be hard to say.

I love Rhythm Nation.

I think, obviously, like, iconic also gave us Jenna Dewan, who is Channing Tatum's former beau, incredible dancer as a child, even.

But then I also love like Escapade.

I love.

That's great.

Janet, if you're listening, we are fans, is what we're getting.

Yeah.

Fans.

So for two decades, Janet Jackson cements herself as an entire institution.

She's so big, she can platform emerging artists such as Usher and Justin Timberlake.

Yes.

In her 1999 Velvet Rope tour, she puts Insync in front of millions of new fans, which helps jumpstart Justin's solo career.

The tour is a literal dream come true because Justin's actually a Janet fanboy.

In short, Justin owes his career to Janet.

Yeah, literally.

So Janet, she has lots of friends, but she's also made some enemies, specifically conservatives who can't really decide whether they hate her because she's a sexy lady, a wealthy sexy lady, a black sexy lady, or all of the above.

Yeah.

And Janet continually snubs her nose at these people, releasing songs like Throb, Go Deep, and When We Ooh.

So good for her.

Yes, yes.

So now fast forward to late 2003, Super Bowl XXXVIIII, which will air on CBS on February 1st, 2004.

It's just around the corner.

So aside from Janet, do you recall what the world was like in 2004?

Where is the love was topping the charts down?

Where is the love?

Yes, exactly.

MTV was huge.

I mean, it was post-9-11, right?

So America is becoming more conservative.

George W.

Bush is president.

He also is like in his campaigning to be re-elected at this point.

I definitely remember what things were like.

And it's so funny that you bring up 9-11 because we're about as far away from 9-11 at this point in the story as we are now from the start of COVID.

Oh,

isn't it so weird to think about?

Yeah, time is a flat circle.

It's still so fresh for us COVID right now.

And so back then, 9-11 was still so fresh.

I mean, what we're getting at is this was the perfect environment for pearl clutching.

Okay.

And

since MTV has teamed them by the footballs, the NFL has been partnering up with them for a few years to put on their big halftime show.

But the NFL is deeply concerned that MTV's biggest stars are too problematic for the millions of Puritans who will be tuning in for the game.

And CBS's chairman and CEO, Les Munves, tries to calm them down.

He personally assures the NFL that it'll be clean, family-friendly, and everyone will love it, or rather, nobody will hate it.

That guy, just a quick aside.

Okay,

we all know what happened to Les Moonvez, though, right?

Yes.

Yes, yes.

He dog protests too much.

Yes.

He's like, too sexy for sure.

I've never had sex with anybody.

That's what he's screaming.

Yeah.

He's like, I shower with my clothes on.

Yeah.

It's always those guys.

Watch out for those guys.

Uh-huh.

What we're getting to is future investigations reveal Moonvez is allegedly a sexual harasser.

So we're going to keep that in mind whenever he claims the moral high ground.

Yep.

So Janet, she's tapped to perform.

And you might be wondering why she's perfect for this given her reputation as a naughty minx.

But weirdly, despite backlash to her free-spirited sexuality over the years, by 2004, she's almost tame when measured against others in the lineup.

I mean, that's how culture works, folks.

You acclimate.

Like frogs to an increasingly sexy pod.

I don't know.

So to learn who else is performing at the 2004 Super Bowl halftime show, let's play a game.

Yay!

I love a game.

So here are the rules.

This is a trivia game and will be played Jeopardy style.

So answers are in the form of a question.

And to chime in, just make a buzz noise.

all right the halftime show wasn't ready for her jelly yet so she belted the national anthem instead

boop beep oh aquila

who is beyoncé

yes queen

i liked our sound so good you know different interpretations but that's the beauty of the buzz Next question.

Sister to Big Flop alum Ashley, this Simpson was taken down down by a can of tuna.

Dylan.

Jessica Simpson.

Yes, it was Jessica Simpson.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shout out to Ashley.

Real me is a southern girl.

Yes.

Who could forget?

Before being raided by the feds this year, this rapper and mogul was best known for frequently changing his name.

Oh, now it's a beat, not a buzz.

Akeelah.

At the time, I want to say he was still Puff Daddy.

We're talking about Sean Combs here.

Yes.

He is a real problem.

This hardcore, trailer-loving country boy MC is actually the son of a wealthy car dealer and grew up in a 22-room house.

Akeelah.

Okay, so this is a guess.

But I, who is Kid Rock?

Yes.

Of course, he's a rich kid.

He gives rich kid buttons.

He tries to make himself seem like he's from the country, like the real, but he ain't from the country.

A little note for the halftime show, he wants to cut a hole in the flag and wear it as a poncho.

But we'll put a pin in that for

interesting.

Interesting.

Yeah.

One more question.

This rapper's most successful track begins with, I was like, good gracious, ass bodacious.

St.

Louis native Nelly.

Yes.

That's right.

Mr.

Bayotain himself.

So, Dylan, does this lineup scream family-friendly to you?

I don't think it's family-friendly at all, but you know what?

That's fine.

That's what the Super Bowl is all about.

Let's see some tits.

Exactly.

The more, the merrier.

How hard is it to kill a planet?

Maybe all it takes is a little drilling, some mining, and a whole lot of carbon pumped into the atmosphere.

When you see what's left, it starts to look like a crime scene.

Are we really safe?

Is our water safe?

You destroyed our top.

And crimes like that, they don't just happen.

We call things accidents.

There is no accident.

This was 100%

preventable.

They're the result of choices by people.

Ruthless oil tycoons, corrupt politicians, even organized crime.

These are the stories we need to be telling about our changing planet.

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So, Janet isn't just performing at the Super Bowl.

She will be headlining halftime.

She's got a new album called Demeter Joe dropping after the game.

And what better way to promote it than having 140 million eyeballs glued to the TV?

Rumors start circling that something big will also happen at the show.

The actual surprise is that Justin Timberlake will also be performing.

But in retrospect, when things go down, people start start connecting this big surprise to the scandal.

Well, on Thursday night, the performers finally have access to the field to run their routine.

But after watching the rehearsals, the NFL and CBS Honshos sent a long memo with notes like, Hey, could Kid Rock not desecrate the American flag, pretty please?

And could P.

Diddy and Nellie tone down the language?

And the producers, they're like, sure.

But then they sort of just ignore the memo.

But hey, at least the production team was smart enough to leave Limp Biscuit out of the show.

Yeah.

Amen.

Oh my God.

Nookie, what?

Yes.

Imagine Nookie for the family.

And Gary will be like, what?

Yeah, imagine.

Yeah.

Why does that

people Google Nookie and it's a whole thing?

Yeah.

It takes seven minutes for the page to load.

They're all just like waiting.

Yeah,

they crash Google with looking up Nookie.

By the way, if you haven't listened to our Woodstock 99 episode, it's sort of the yin to this episode's yang.

So go check it out.

So Janet will perform a mix of old and new, doing a medley of all for you, rhythm nation, and a brief excerpt of the knowledge.

Then she and Pretty Boy Justin plan to end halftime with his mega hit, Rock Your Body.

A proposed stunt where Justin rips off Janet's skirt to reveal a jumpsuit is canned.

It just doesn't work.

And it's not officially replaced with anything else.

And every shred of wardrobe is approved by standards and practices.

And then Justin leaves the host city of Houston for a couple of days on business.

And his return flight is scheduled for less than an hour before halftime.

Wow.

Which seems like a really bad idea.

Right.

Just in general.

Just unprofessional.

I mean, I wish that he would have missed that flight.

Honestly.

How lucky would we have been if he got stuck, you know?

Well, on the night of the big game, a police escort waits for Justin

at the airport to make sure he gets to the stage.

Beyonce belts out an incredible rendition of the Star-Spangled Banner, obviously.

The New England Patriots outpace the Carolina Panthers, racking up a 14 to 10 score in the first two quarters.

I literally forgot about that.

Who I, I had no clue who played.

If you told me it was the, you know, Milwaukee Panda Bears or whatever, it doesn't matter.

Janet pulls Justin into a private 20-minute meeting, and no one knows what they say to each other.

And before you know it, it is halftime showtime.

All 11 minutes of it are flawless, except that all of the network notes are pretty much ignored.

Kid Rock still wears the American flag poncho, and the rap performances feature scantily clad backup dancers who make everyone nervous.

But Janet and Justin, perfection.

The choreo is spot on.

They sound good.

Their energy is electric.

So, for all of the listeners, the choreography has Justin pursuing Janet across the stage for their big finale.

And then, in a flash,

it happens.

Justin sings his last line: Better have you naked by the end of this song, reaches over, tears off a piece of Janet's costume, and reveals her right breast to 140 million viewers.

For a split second, a sunburst nipple shield gleams in the spotlight.

Yeah, a moment that goes down in history.

Wild.

A black titty took down the whole Super Bowl.

Just the one.

Not even two.

Not even two.

Well, isn't one a little bit more?

Yeah, one's even more shocking.

Why?

Just the one.

You know what?

You're like, what?

In a way, one is like an avant-garde statement, kind of like,

instead of, you know,

like, really Bjork.

Don't you wish you could see the other?

Yes.

And you imagine the other immediately.

Exactly.

And that's what's more sinister.

It's like a psyop.

Exactly.

And then Marina Abramovic comes up and it's like, guest, another guest.

The moment happens, jaws drop.

America is scandalized.

The country will never be the same again.

And unfortunately, neither will Janet's career.

So what happens at the Super Bowl remains a mystery, even 20 years later.

It happens so quickly, the producers initially miss it.

Only after angry phone calls come in do they rewind the tape and realize that that's what happened.

The reason our intel is so fragmented is that everyone at some point contradicts themselves or is perhaps misquoted.

At first, Janet says nothing.

In fact, she flees the stadium immediately.

But Justin hangs around long enough to drop a line to reporters, and he seems excited, saying, That was fun.

Such a trash.

Yeah, he could have talked to one other person and been like, Maybe don't, maybe don't start with how much fun you had.

So, when a reporter says, quote, you are getting hot and steamy up there, he responds with, we love giving y'all something to talk about.

It's like, is that a clue that the stunt was planned?

Or is he just aloof?

Yeah, I mean, he could be either stupid or either stupid or not media trained or just not thinking about the repercussions it could have on Janet and such and such.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So he might just be playing the situation off, perhaps not even realizing that it's as big a deal as it turns out to be later.

We'll give some benefit of the doubt.

But he could also be trying to look like a little bad boy, thinking it'll be good for his image, whether he planned it or not.

Whatever he's thinking here, a few days later, he walks it all back.

Let's take a look at a clip.

You know, got in, didn't really have time to rehearse it.

Got to the field, went on stage,

was in the moment.

And when what happened happened,

I mean, I was completely shocked and appalled.

Appalled.

Shocked and appalled, bitch.

You pulled it.

You are the one who pulled the

off, bitch.

And you weren't there early enough to reveal anything.

So don't just downplay, like, I didn't get a chance.

You chose not to be in town.

Exactly.

And then you're appalled by the boob.

What?

People are, you don't think people are going to run with that?

Yeah.

No,

he knew what he was doing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Throwing Janet under the bus?

Absolutely.

Well, both MTV's producers and Janet's reps later confirmed this was the idea that a costume tearaway stunt was an intentional part of the act, but that nudity was not.

It was supposed to reveal a lace bra, but it had collapsed.

Now, listen, I am staunchly homosexual.

So I don't really understand bras, but from what I do understand, they're supposed to be sturdy and supportive and like not disintegrate, right?

Yeah, definitely.

And I would also say collapse is such a funny, it's only funny in hindsight, but I'm like, 9-11 is not that long ago.

And like the way they describe 9-11 is like buildings collapsing.

So they're like, the titty collapse.

They're really painting this as the second, like the boob is the building.

Yeah, like this is the worst thing that could have been.

Well, the FCC, yes, that's the Federal Communications Commission, initiated a full-on investigation for a pop star nip slip.

So we here on the big flop decided to do our own investigation as well.

Now, sometime.

Between the rehearsal where the skirt rip was canceled and the nip slip went live, Janet's stylist Wayne Scott Lucas goes shopping and does something to her costume that the producers did not seem to approve or know about, according to them.

And he reportedly spends a lot of time at a local tailor working on something secret.

Maybe it's true that we're all supposed to see a red lace bra under the leather cup that Justin pulls off, or maybe that's a lie.

Don't know.

A body piercer has confirmed he sold Lucas a sunburst nipple shield the week before the Super Bowl, the one seen when her bodice is ripped open.

He even has the matching one as a souvenir.

Let's take a look at that shield.

Oh,

it's only

the full nip out.

This is like a war relic.

They dug it up.

It appeals.

Wow, Joe.

Okay.

But is buying the shield proof it was meant to be seen on live TV?

It's at least a fail-safe.

Like he's like, okay, well, at least it'll be something shiny.

Maybe it'll reflect off the nipple and the screen won't catch it.

That to me isn't as clear of a connection.

So the body piercer does claim that Lucas told him there'd be a surprise at the end of the halftime show.

So, I mean, it's getting a little murky, but again, there was supposed to be the skirt reveal.

So who really knows?

Right.

But.

Because nobody knows Janet's state of mind right then and there, people start to fill in the blanks themselves.

The MTV producers who are being badgered by their bosses at CVS and NFL can't reach her or her manager by phone.

So is she courting scandal to promote her new album or does she seem so embarrassed by the mistake that she can't even speak?

It's very confusing and she's not talking, so we don't know.

In gossip rags, Wayne Scott Lucas later claims that Justin planned the moment in hopes of upstaging ex-girlfriend Brittany Spears, who had just shared an on-stage kiss with Madonna at the MTV Video Music Awards just five months prior.

Oh, yeah.

He also explains that the original stunt where Justin would pull off Janet's skirt would reveal more than just a jumpsuit, but a bejeweled G-string.

Wow.

Now, serious question, because policing bodies is an intricate and exhausting art, but is a butt crack more subdued than nipple?

Hmm.

Yeah, but I think just like a shiny nipple is probably still

still harder for like evangelical America than like ass crack.

Because I feel like you see like a plumber's crack all the time.

You don't necessarily get a sexual vibe.

Now, with if it was bejeweled ass crack of a plumber, you'd be like, That's what I was thinking.

I'm like, wait, someone's literal hole compared to the nipple.

The hole.

That's what I was imagining.

If they're showing hole, for sure.

Yeah, they're showing hole.

That's like another 9-11, honestly.

Have you naked by the end of this song?

Pulled over, bejeweled ass, fade to black.

We're in the ass.

Yes.

Backwards spreading.

That's the third building.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's why.

So something obviously doesn't line up.

Lucas also says that Janet planned the stunt with her choreographer.

So whose idea was it?

Janet's?

Justin's?

We don't know.

Lucas is mostly just mad at the term wardrobe malfunction that Justin coins because it puts blame on none other than the wardrobe person Lucas himself.

Now, our team of big flop forensic specialists have analyzed the footage, and here's what they've discovered.

A vibrant red bustier is indeed visible peeking up above the cups of Janet's leather dress, as you can see right here.

But after the malfunction, Justin appears to be holding a leather cup with red material stitched to the inside.

That's not collapsing.

That's just dastardly.

That's just intentional.

Yeah.

It's not collapsing.

But the question still remains: is this something that either or both of the performers know is coming?

Well, in the New York Times documentary, the talking heads say Janet was shocked and looked genuinely surprised.

One stage manager says she saw Janet crying as she handed her a blanket to cover up.

But our forensics team found something else.

We see Janet strike a shocked pose, except her hands aren't covering her breast.

They're clutching her abdomen and her sternum.

Here's a photo.

Oh, uh-huh.

You know what?

Yeah.

I would do the same thing.

Yeah.

I would be so confused.

And in the moment, I'm like, oh, stomach.

No, there's the nipple.

And, you know, it might take a while to find it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, maybe she's just doing the fake shocked pose she planned for the red bra reveal, but her genuine shock happens after the camera's cut away from the stage, which would explain why she ran away instead of talking to reporters, in my humble opinion it's literally a second so it's like we see the nipple and he is looking at her but then they're both looking forward so it feels like two potential things it could be like this is our final pose for like the performance is over or it's like we're looking forward like who's gonna help us because like they're not looking at each other like she's not hitting him like

i feel like i would have been like you stupid idiot you ruined my life

While whoever may be at fault, every entity involved, MTV, CBS, NFL, issues statements, all saying basically the same thing.

They were not aware, not responsible, very sorry, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

But the angriest person in all of of this doesn't seem to be the MTV producers who answer to the NFL or the NFL who answers to America's Bible Belt, but actually

the problematic CBS executive Les Moonvez.

He swears to make it right, to get to the bottom of this scandal and punish anyone responsible.

Oh, wow.

Jesus.

So Janet realizes she's in trouble and issues a written apology on Monday, but she might already be too late.

Various interest groups pounce on the scandal to further their own goals, like the Parents Television Council, who have been badgering FCC chairman Michael Powell long before Nipplegate, and conservative legislators that are more than happy to help them.

They finally have cause for a real uproar, and they succeed in getting the FCC to investigate the halftime show just two days after the Super Bowl.

CBS could face millions of dollars in fines.

So, Janet issues another

apology, this time on video.

Let's watch.

My decision to change the Super Bowl performance was actually made after the final rehearsal.

In TV,

CBS, the NFL had no knowledge of this whatsoever.

And unfortunately, the whole thing went wrong in the end.

I am really sorry if I offended anyone.

That was truly not my intention.

So sad.

Imagine, like, you're like, this is the biggest performance of my life.

I am headlining the Super Bowl.

And now I have to, like...

Just go be guillotined on behalf of giant corporations because my book came out.

I know.

She's really taking a hit for fucking CBSM TV.

Moonbez is not satisfied.

He wants a personal apology.

That is to say, in person in his office, which sounds creepier than it needs to, but it's also less Moonves.

So maybe it's exactly the amount of creepy it should sound.

Yeah, Justin heads over to CBS and he bends the knee, but Janet, she holds back, thinking everyone needs to put things into perspective.

Yeah.

She's a star.

Yes.

Moonvez is just some dumb, angry old dude.

But Moonvez isn't done trying to extract an apology from Janet, and the next card he plays is the Grammys.

At first, he doesn't want either Janet or Justin to be allowed anywhere near it.

But while CBS is airing the show, the Recording Academy runs it and they ask for leniency.

Both Justin and Janet have big roles at the ceremony, including performances and nominations.

So, fine.

Moonvez offers them both a chance to bow their heads in shame by apologizing live at the Grammys.

What do you think Janet does?

I mean, I don't remember the Grammys that year, but I feel like she just wouldn't go.

Like, why would you put yourself up against more scrutiny like that?

Yeah.

Like, she doesn't need the Grammys at that point.

Yeah, no, I don't remember what happened, but I would have shown hole.

Yeah, but dazzled.

This is for Les Moon Vez.

That's right.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Well, Akeelah, you're right.

Janet declines.

She does not want to apologize, nor should she.

Three more times?

I mean, Jesus.

Yeah.

Come on, right?

Justin, however, not only performs at the Grammys, he wins two awards and uses one of his acceptance speeches to apologize just like Daddy Moon Vez wants him to do.

What a little bitch.

What a idiot.

Yeah.

So Janet's in a tight spot.

The media's misogyny is overpowering, and so is their hypocrisy.

Janet's longtime sexual empowerment is used as proof that she's a corrupting force on society.

But the shocking event is constantly replayed and discussed by people who claim to be offended by it.

Even folks who think Justin should be more to blame completely miss the point.

Now, it's not that Justin doesn't notice the unfairness either.

Here he is being interviewed by MTV News, RIP, in 2006.

And to borrow a phrase from Cosmopolitan, he sounds vaguely woke.

If you consider it 50-50,

I mean,

I probably got 10%

of blame.

And that,

I think that says something about society.

You know, I think that America's harsher on women.

And I think that America's,

you know, unfairly harsh on

ethnic people.

Whoa.

He's like, what's the word?

What's the word?

On ethnic.

Yeah.

I mean, I think it's good that it shows that awareness, but I also think that like, if he had even one smart person on his team, they were telling him, like, it doesn't look great that you're just going about your life and getting to like have a career while this woman is just being shamed from production to production.

He's doing this also to the benefit of his own.

It doesn't feel like, you know, if he really cared, he would have said something immediately.

He would have done more.

But now it's like the dust settled and it's like, well,

I will say it's a little unfair that the ethnics black out.

Black out.

Exactly.

So political and financial repercussions spread far beyond Janet or even the music industry.

MTV is never asked to co-produce another Super Bowl, sure.

But some even argue Nipplegate may have shifted the primary focus of the 2004 election from George Bush's incompetency to moral values, resulting in John Kerry's defeat.

Yeah.

FCC officials, the NFL commissioner, and the president of Viacom, which owns CBS and MTV, are dragged in front of Congress to testify,

and conservatives rip them to shreds.

Bills are introduced in both the Senate and House to increase fines for indecency on the airwaves.

Penalties jump from the previous fine of $27,500

to $275,000.

CBS is fined over half a million dollars.

That's so much money for a nipple.

I know, for a nipple.

For a nipple.

And we we didn't even get a good look at it.

I just want to repeat.

It was just like one second of a nipple.

Jeez.

Like, who was genuinely traumatized, you know?

Right.

Raise your hand.

Who's the kid who like can't go to school or speak now?

Because that nipple is just too, too impactful.

He only wants women with like one nipple.

It's just, it's a thing now.

He's drawing just circles like a kid in a horror movie, but it's a nipple.

He just can't.

Yeah.

You did this, Janet.

This is on you.

He's like, Jason, you're an algebra.

Wake up.

Wake up.

It's not real, Jason.

Yeah.

So that half a million dollars, Les Moonbez asks his colleagues if there's a way to make Janet herself pay these fines.

This guy is such a piece of crap.

He sure is.

For real.

CBS continues to fight the fines for eight years before the Supreme Court rules unanimously in their favor in 2012.

So they don't have have to pay them.

So, wow, Les, must be nice to be an old, rich, and well-connected guy.

But Chief Justice John Roberts warns that future cases might not go the same way.

So, that's a lesson out there for all of you.

Don't show your nipples unexpectedly.

Don't show that other one.

Don't get any ideas.

Don't show the other one.

Justin spends exactly one week in the penalty box, and then his career is unstoppable.

He becomes the voice of McDonald's.

He has album after album going platinum.

So Janet's career goes the other way.

She starts out as untouchable and faces a huge backlash.

So let's start with her music.

Kowtowing to public pressure, Viacom reportedly orders that Jackson's singles and music videos be blacklisted from all of its properties, including CBS and MTV.

Although her new album, Demeter Joe, is nominated for a Grammy, it ends up as her lowest-selling album since 1984.

She loses record label deals, movie deals, and corporate sponsorships, and none of Jackson's subsequent albums come close to the popularity of anything pre-2004.

And her acting career takes an even bigger hit.

Besides a cameo on Will and Grace in 2004 and two Tyler Perry movies, Janet doesn't act again.

She also has to continuously humiliate herself to continue working.

In April of 2004, Janet appears on SNL for the first time as the host, not just the musical guest.

But SNL being SNL, the opening monologue features a cringy reference to Nipplegate.

Meanwhile, Justin goes on to host SNL so many times he's in their Hall of Fame, aka the Five Timers Club.

Most glaringly, Justin is invited back to headline the 2018 Super Bowl halftime show, and Jackson is nowhere to be seen.

And he even performs Rock Your Body, the song where he originally unveiled Janet's nipple.

Yeah.

But before he gets to the line, Better Have You Naked by the end of this song, he says, hold up, stop, and transitions into a senorita sexy back medley.

Do we think that's intentionally alluding to the scandal?

100%.

100%.

100%.

He could have totally helped out Janet Jackson by ripping his own shirt off.

Yeah,

ripping his own, showing his whole.

Showing us whole.

Now bend over at the end of the song.

That's how it goes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

This time, though, the internet takes notice, and hashtag justice for Janet goes viral, shining a light on the double standards that robbed Janet of her spotlight.

And then the conversation shifts from injustice to love for Janet's accomplishments.

And so we get hashtag Janet Jackson Appreciation Day.

A few months later, Janet is inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame by Janelle Monet.

And let's watch that.

With an epic career spanning over four decades and nine number one albums,

this gifted singer, songwriter, producer, dancer, actress

is an icon.

That That gave me chills.

I love that.

I love them.

Long time coming.

Yeah, I love them.

Yeah.

So let's do a little, where are they now?

Following the internet's demand for Janet, she threw together a few concerts, but, you know, COVID.

In 2022, she announced her 10th concert tour, Together Again, which is currently in progress.

Justin does not appear to be performing as her opening act this time.

Is it because he's too busy being a bad boy?

Because yes, Justin has finally got himself into trouble, and the internet is soaking it in.

In June of 2024, he was arrested on suspicion of drunk driving in the Hamptons.

Justin pled not guilty, and his lawyers are confident the charges will drop.

But his mug shot is currently a meme factory.

So the world gleefully watches him squirm.

Why do you think everyone's so happy to pounce on him?

I mean, I think it's a long time coming.

Like, we haven't even touched the Britney of it all.

I also think that the quote from the young guy who pulled him over

was that when he put him in the back of the car, he said, This is going to ruin the tour.

And the guy said, What tour?

And he said, The world tour.

And so now people say that about everything.

That is a great quip.

Yeah, I know, isn't it?

You know, it's just because he's had a history of playing into the misogyny in a way that will benefit him and he knows will be destructive towards, you know, Brittany and/or Janet Jackson.

He's not apologetic about it.

There's been statements about him being like, I'm going to apologize for absolutely fucking nothing.

And then his new album flopped, you know, and it's a bad album and as it should have.

Everything I thought I was debuted at number six, the lowest of his career, and only sold 67,000 copies, 41,000 if you don't count on streaming.

Yeah, there's no demand.

Yeah, that's the population of my hometown.

That's

yeah.

But lest we forget Mr.

Les Munvez, who has certainly gotten his comeuppance, not for mistreating Janet, but allegedly sexually harassing many, many women.

According to an explosive report by Ronan Farrow in 2018, Les has many accusers, including former colleagues.

He was fired from CBS without severance.

Gets worse for him.

Recently, he was fined $15,000 when it was alleged he tried to bury an investigation into the accusations of his sexual assault back in 2017 using connections he had at the LAPD.

Wow.

Trash can, trash can.

He deserves to be in the trash can.

Yeah.

So here at the Big Flap, we we try to be positive, uplifting people.

So are there any silver linings that you can think that came about from Nipplegate?

I mean, I guess I'll just say, you know, I do think there's a renewed interest in Janet.

She is touring.

She had that great documentary series with like so much archival footage that is just really stunning.

I think that was at Lifetime.

And I also think like, you know, to see her winning post Timberlake's Fall is kind of beautiful.

The fact that she's still standing, I think, really speaks volumes about her character and about how she's just willing to, you know, show back up.

Yeah, I mean, Justin is still definitely mega successful, but he's had some bumps in the road lately.

And it's great to see Janet having her come back.

I 100% agree.

I'm so happy that she's resurging as she should because the older generation of gays love and knowing Janet.

And it's like really this resurgence is making like a new generation of young gays really just fall in love.

And as she, you know, she deserves to be in that echelon of like legend queer icon that she's always been, you know?

Bully.

I was thinking for now, the prudes have lost the battle.

The country will move forward no matter how hard they try not to.

They're just going to have to get with it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, now that you both know about Nipplegate, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop?

I mean, it's a big flop.

Yeah.

It's a boot flop.

It's a big flop.

I would call it a astronomical flop turned into

an astronomical, unstopped bull.

Rise.

Yes, rise.

I love it.

I love it.

Thank you so much to our guests, Dylan Adler and Akela Hughes, for joining us here on The Big Flop.

And thanks to all of you for listening.

If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review.

We'll be back next week with another flop.

It's Disney World's weird cousin no one likes to bring up, Celebration Florida.

Bye.

Bye.

If you like the big flop, you can listen early and ad-free on Wondery Wondery Plus.

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The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and At-Will Media, hosted by Misha Brown, produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner.

Written by Anna Rubinova and Luke Burns.

Engineered by Anna Rubinova with support from Andrew Holtzberger.

Managing producer is Molly Getman.

Executive producers are Kate Walsh and Will Malnoti for At Will Media.

Legal support by Carolyn Levin of Miller, Korzynik, Summers, and Raymond.

Producers for Wondery are Adam Azaraf and Matt Beagle.

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Music supervisor is Scott Velazquez for Freeson Sink.

Theme song is Sinking Ship by Cake.

Executive producers are Lizzie Bassett, Dave Easton, and Marshall Louie for Wondering.

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We are

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