New Coke Goes Flat with Preacher Lawson and Paul F. Tompkins | 40

Hey, you.

Yeah, you, the one who can't get enough of the big flop?

I've got a proposition for you.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts, and you'll unlock a treasure trove of ad-free episodes and early access to the big flop.

It's like having a secret map to the most notorious corporate catastrophes.

Trust me, it's an offer you can't refuse.

Gay Mullins is pissed off.

A humble, retired medical engineer from the great state of Washington, a little guy, Mullins is about to take on one of the biggest companies in the world,

soda giant Coca-Cola, because he has no choice.

What has Coke done wrong?

Well, after almost a hundred years of fizzy deliciousness, they've changed their recipe.

Hang on, changing Coke?

I mean, you can't just do that.

This is an unpatriotic desecration of all that Americans hold dear.

It's unthinkable, unconscionable.

They must be stopped.

And the right to drink the old kind of Coke must be restored to all all flag-waving beverage guzzlers as quickly as possible.

Mullins has started an organization, the Old Coke Drinkers of America.

They've collected signatures, started a complaint hotline, organized protests.

And if none of that moves Coca-Cola, they're ready to sue for their traditional recipe.

The old Coke drinkers are going to save this country from the biggest threat to liberty since the Red Coats.

New Coke.

Coke today announced it is changing the near-century-old recipe.

Introducing the new taste of Coca-Cola.

If things have been going better with Coke all along, why tamper with success?

Pepsi has overtaken Coke in sales.

Coca-Cola has made a marketing mistake.

The truth is, we're not that dumb and we're not that smart.

We

are

on a

single game ship.

From Wondery and at Will Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time.

I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar and recovered diet coke addict at Don't Cross a Gay Man.

And today, we're talking about the fizzy flop that was new coke.

Big moments or small moments?

They all deserve great style.

At Maurice's, we're here to help you show up feeling your best, no matter what's on your calendar.

Whether it's a date night, a special event, or just another Tuesday.

Our over 800 stylists are here to help.

From tried and true denim to head-turning looks, we've got style that fits your life and your budget.

Visit your local Maurice's to find fashion fit for you with a little help from us.

This message is sponsored by Greenlight.

With school out, summer is the perfect time to teach our kids real-world money skills they'll use forever.

Greenlight is a debit card and the number one family finance and safety app used by millions of families, helping kids learn how to save, invest, and spend wisely.

Parents can send their kids money and track their spending and saving while kids build money confidence and skills skills in fun ways.

Start your risk-free green light trial today at greenlight.com/slash wondery.

That's greenlight.com/slash wondery.

On our show today, I'm so excited.

We have two legendary comedians.

We have Preacher Lawson and Paul F.

Tompkins.

Welcome to the show, guys.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you, Misha.

So, question: Do either of you remember New Coke?

Well, Misha,

I don't want to bring the room down, but

I'm old enough to have lived through this time.

And I just hope you will be respectful of people like me who had to experience this firsthand.

Tread carefully.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The unresolved trauma.

I can feel it.

I can feel it.

Yep.

What about you, Preacher?

I mean, I don't,

I just found out we're talking about soda.

I didn't know.

No, but I don't think I remember New Coke.

That's good to say because I definitely feel like I'm getting older.

Every day I'm getting older.

Well, for anyone who's unfamiliar, New Coke is a legendary flop.

This is the go-to American reference for any big corporate push that goes horribly wrong.

What Watergate is to political scandals, New Coke is to failed business or marketing decisions.

And for anyone not familiar with Watergate, we'll get you all the dirty details coming up on the show.

For now, let's get started by playing a game.

There have been countless articles comparing other business failures to New Coke.

So, I'm going to read you some excerpts and headlines, and you will guess whether they appeared in a publication being true or if it's something we just made up and it's false.

All right, all right.

First one: The metaverse, Possibly the worst business idea since New Coke?

Real or false?

I want to say that's real.

Is it bad?

Is it still bad?

I thought it eventually got better.

Oh, man.

That's wild.

Yes, that one was a real headline.

Yeah, okay.

All right.

Next one.

It wasn't all that long ago that everyone expected Microsoft's first attempt to make a game console to go over about as well as New Coke.

I'm going to say false.

Oh.

I'm going to say false too.

That one was real.

Oh, man.

All right.

Third one.

You may be wondering if a pumpkin pie-flavored latte could be Starbucks's new Coke.

I got to say false on that one.

I don't think anybody was rooting for the pumpkin spice latte to fail.

I don't know if this matters, but I'm black.

So does that pumpkin spice?

I mean, yeah, I think it's false.

That one is false.

Good job.

All right.

Last one.

Ron DeSantis is New Coke.

I think my heart wants that to be true.

I don't watch the news.

I'm the reason we're going down.

I'm not paying attention, man.

Just makes me sad.

So

he probably is New Coke, right?

Right.

Is that true?

That one was true.

That was an an actual excerpt and headline.

There you go.

But while most people think New Coke failed because it tasted bad, the story is a lot more complicated and full of twists and turns that you just wouldn't expect.

Today, we're going to unpack the lore and misinformation.

So, the story of New Coke centers around the execs who introduced it.

Coke's chairman and CEO, Roberto Guazita, and his right-hand man, president and COO, Donald Keogh.

Roberto and Donald, the famous duo.

The famous duo.

Yeah.

Roberto works as a chemist for Coca-Cola in his home city of Havana until La Revolución when the new Cuban government nationalizes private companies.

In 1961, with only $40 and 100 shares of Coca-Cola to his name, Roberto, his wife, and their three children start their lives over in America, where he continues to work for Coke.

If you had to flee your country, would you get a job with your old employer?

How far back do I have to go?

The most recent job held?

Your most recent job?

Okay.

I mean, I wouldn't go back to telemarketing, that's for sure.

Yeah, I don't think my employer would hire me.

I'm pretty bad.

Like, that's why I'm doing comedy.

I'm pretty bad.

Well, meanwhile, Roberto's future business partner, Donald, takes a much windier path to Coca-Cola.

While at college in Omaha, he develops an interest not in soda or chemicals, but in TV.

He hosts a local talk show called The Coffee Counter that led into, and I'm not joking, a show hosted by Johnny Carson.

Although he was a great communicator, Donald left the coffee counter and got into the actual coffee business.

But then that company was absorbed by Coca-Cola in 1964.

I mean, is this the luckiest guy in the world being in the right place at the right time?

It's kind of a strange little resume.

I like that for him.

I like that for Donald.

So imagine, split screen.

Over the next two decades, while Roberto works his way up through Koch's technical and engineering divisions, Donald heads the company's food division and then weirdly Columbia Pictures, which Koch briefly owned.

Oh yeah, I remember that time when there was just a lot of soda-based movies.

So in 1981, following a succession battle at Coke, Roberto and Donald rise to the top.

Boisterous communicator Donald becomes president, while timid and thoughtful business philosopher Roberto gets the most votes for CEO.

But while all of this is going on, Koch's market share is is shrinking, and the duo have to face one of the biggest challenges in the company's history.

Coke is losing territory to Pepsi in the cola wars.

Are we Coke guys?

Are we Pepsi guys?

I used to consider myself a Coca-Cola man, but let me tell you something.

Recently, some friends and I did something called the Pepsi Challenge, and we all chose Pepsi as the better soda in a blind taste test.

Oh, wow.

And we all thought it was Coke.

I haven't drank Pepsi or Coke in years.

I just haven't.

You need a little treat sometimes.

You know what I mean?

Oh, man.

I can't.

That's like a Red Bull or something.

That just gives me...

Soda makes me hyper, man.

I don't need, I'm already.

But the Red Bull is even killed for you.

Oh, Red Bull doesn't give me energy.

It's weird.

It just makes me.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah.

Monsters kind of mess me up.

Monsters are like, that's like...

Well, it turns you into a monster.

Yeah, it turns into into a monster.

Yeah, it's perfect.

I will say visually, though, if I can see the product, I will choose Coke every time.

Really, if I'm looking at Coke and Pepsi, I will choose Coke.

But I guess if I'm blindfolded, I'll take Pepsi.

That's crazy.

Well, in the years following World War II, Coke was sitting pretty.

Their iconic soda accounted for more than 50% of the entire market.

But when the groovy 60s come around, a new drink will turn the tides.

Diet Pepsi.

By the 80s, Pepsi wages a full frontal assault on the king of soft drinks.

The sexy, youthful, Pepsi Generation ad campaign is crushing.

Celebrities like Lionel Ritchie, Tina Turner, David Bowie are telling the world, you don't have to drink Coke.

There's another way.

Certainly, if I was an impressionable teen, I'd be looking at Lionel Ritchie and saying, how could I be more like him?

Pepsi has also landed a critical hit on Coke with the Pepsi challenge, which we were just talking about.

And consumers seemingly prefer the flavor of sweeter Pepsi over Coke, at least in Pepsi's commercials and at least in Paul's.

experience.

No one was more shocked than I was.

Coke still does okay, though, because they're at restaurants or concessions where they have exclusive deals in place to keep Pepsi off the premises.

Have you ever been to a restaurant and you're like, oh, can I have a Coke?

And the waitress just looks at you with like fear in her eyes, like, Pepsi?

I feel like when they went, Pepsi okay?

Yeah, is that okay?

Yeah.

Please tempt me.

But at grocery stores where people have freedom.

of choice, this is America, it's a whole other ballgame.

The people want Pepsi.

This is not good for Coke.

The market share and stock price are sliced in half.

The very idea that a new drink could be as good, if not better, than Coke's esteemed, iconic, original brand sets the company on edge.

This isn't just a swing in market trends.

It's an existential crisis.

So Roberto and his executives are convinced.

Tastes have changed.

The blind tests prove it, and the numbers prove it.

Coke's flagship, century-old and formerly untouchable product, has to either change with the times or die.

Drama.

Die, meaning be number two.

Yeah.

And still make billions of dollars.

Exactly, yeah.

Well, now it's not that Coca-Cola hasn't made adjustments already.

Famously, in 1904, they stopped using fresh coca leaves, which contained cocaine, and started to use spent leaves for flavor.

That's why I like Pepsi now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No fun, Coke.

But this new reformulation led by Roberto, this would be the first radical revisioning of the drink's taste ever.

Fun fact, in 2003, just 2003, Coca-Cola imported more than 385,000 pounds of coca leaf, enough to make $200 million worth of cocaine.

I mean, it seems like they were in the wrong business.

Yeah, right.

Especially because before you get too excited, they do have to destroy any cocaine they make as a byproduct.

I know.

Well, that's too bad.

Would you try cocaine soda, though, if it were on the menu?

I've never tried regular cocaine.

But for some reason, cocaine soda just seems a little more.

I've also never had cocaine, but I think I would accept it in soft drink form for sure.

Just a soda.

You know,

why not?

Come on, baby.

We're all adults.

Honestly, the putting something in your nose has been a barrier to entry for me.

That's the only reason I haven't done cocaine.

It's like, that's it.

That's the only way.

Yeah.

You can drink cocaine all day.

So, making Coca-Cola sweeter is a change Roberto is betting the company on.

He pulls together a team to work on on a top-secret project code named Project Kansas to develop and test the overhaul of Coca-Cola itself.

Does Project Kansas sound like a war operation at all to you?

I love how condescending it is.

Like,

you know, America,

people in Kansas.

Well, it was inspired by the 1944 Allied invasion of Normandy Normandy called Operation Overlord.

Wait, why was that called?

Wow.

Paul, could you please read this passage from the Project Kansas documents?

Absolutely.

In its size, scope, and boldness, it is not unlike the Allied invasion of Europe in 1944.

This is not just another product improvement, not just a repositioning or new product introduction.

Kansas, quite simply, cannot, must not fail.

Wow.

So the Project Kansas team studied their soda offensive by looking at their promising new weapon, Diet Coke.

Weirdly, because Diet Coke tastes sweeter and smoother, it apparently tastes more like Pepsi.

Wow.

So the chemists remove the artificial sweetener from Diet Coke, add a ton of high high-fructose corn syrup, and tweak the other secret ingredients to get rid of Coke's signature burn.

Finally, they land on a formula that performs significantly better than original Coke and Pepsi in blind tests.

So, by God, they've done it.

Coke is saved, right?

I'm glad for them.

Good for them.

That was a close one.

Yeah.

All right.

End of the episode.

How hard is it to kill a planet?

Maybe all it takes is a little drilling, some mining, and a whole lot of carbon pumped into the atmosphere.

When you see what's left, it starts to look like a crime scene.

Are we really safe?

Is our water safe?

You destroyed our town.

And crimes like that, they don't just happen.

We call things accidents.

There is no accident.

This was 100%

preventable.

They're the result of choices by people.

Ruthless oil tycoons, corrupt politicians, even organized crime.

These are the stories we need to be telling about our changing planet.

Stories of scams, murders, and cover-ups that are about us and the things we're doing to either protect the Earth or destroy it.

Follow Lawless Planet on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to new episodes of Lawless Planet early and ad-free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

It's your man, Nick Cannon.

I'm here to bring you my new podcast, Nick Cannon at Night.

I've heard y'all been needing some advice in the love department.

So who better to help than yours truly?

Nah, I'm serious.

Every week, I'm bringing out some of my celebrity friends and the best experts in the business to answer your most intimate relationship questions.

Having problems with your man?

We got you.

Catching feelings for your sneaky link?

Let's make sure it's the real deal first.

Ready to bring toys into the bedroom?

Let's talk about it.

Consider this a non-judgment zone to ask your questions when it comes to sex and modern dating in relationships, friendships, situationships, and everything in between.

It's going to be sexy, freaky, messy, and you know what?

You'll just have to watch the show.

So don't be shy.

Join the conversation and head over to YouTube to watch Nick Cannon at night or subscribe on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

Want to watch episodes early and ad-free?

Join Wondery Plus right now.

So on April 23rd, 1985, Roberto and Donald head to Lincoln Center in New York for a press event where they introduce the brand new drink.

And this brilliant drink needs a brilliant name, New Coke.

I'm pausing for gasps.

so roberto describes new coke as smoother rounder bolder and more quote harmonious wow time magazine even says roberto delivers the speech with quote unrestrained bravado Wow, I've heard that Roberto is historically timid and mild-mannered, whereas Donald, the host of Coffee Counter, is more of the showman.

So this is this is a major development.

Major development.

Yeah.

So, while there, they have one other big announcement.

Old Coke is going, bye-bye.

I mean, why not just offer every type of soda and let the customers decide?

Well, their thinking is Coke would then be competing with itself.

I mean, there's Diet Coke, New Coke, even Cherry Coke is a new product about to hit the shelves in the summer.

But then it's not competing with itself because all of it is Coke.

So

people are buying more Coke products, right?

Just because they're rich doesn't mean they're smart.

When somebody makes a move like this, I always try to think, oh, they're playing three-dimensional chess or whatever.

And then it turns out like, no, they just weren't thinking that far ahead.

Whatever Coke's flagship drink is, it needs to be number one and stay available at all the restaurants, theaters, things like that.

So basically, they commit and they commit hard.

It is new Coke or bust.

Right.

And the commercials are boastful.

So we have one to watch.

Introducing the greatest taste discovery in 100 years.

A taste that's very familiar, yet totally new.

A taste so good, so real, it couldn't be anything but a coke.

I mean, those people did seem happy.

They were really happy.

My favorite line, a taste that's very familiar, yet totally new.

Marketing.

They did show a woman having a sip out of a glass bottle of coke which always looks so refreshing and she has to just sort of shiver to herself in pleasure because it's so good and so new preacher are you convinced i'm pretty easily manipulated so yeah

you are a marketer's dream yeah

i'm one of the dumb ones so i'm absolutely like oh my gosh that's brand new oh if it has the word new on it i'm trying it yeah

No matter how certain Coke's execs are of the product, their rivals at Pepsi are ready to reign on their victory parade.

They claim that Coke launching a new formula, particularly one that tastes more like Pepsi, is an obvious white flag.

So they've prepped ads declaring victory in the heated Cole Awards, and they've armed over 200 reporters with pessimistic story angles.

They even give employees the day off to celebrate, a savvy PR stunt.

Wait, this is across the board day off for everyone who works for Pepsi.

There's no Pepsi being made this day because we have already won.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

And also, there's no way it's true.

Have you ever gotten a day off from your boss because they're like, victory is ours?

Never.

Never.

Never.

I've gotten fired, though.

That's true.

I've gotten fired, I guess.

That's a sort of day off.

They're like, you're a day off forever.

We will be more successful without you.

So I guess I can count that.

For the first few weeks, sales for New Coke go relatively smoothly.

In tests conducted by newspapers and by phone, customers proclaim they actually like New Coke better.

So what goes wrong?

Well, according to a very thoughtful 2019 Mother Jones article called New Coke Didn't Fail, It Was Murdered, there are two reasons.

One, the media.

And the other reason things go south is the South.

Which of these two things is a bigger problem, the media or the Southern United States of America?

In many ways, the Southern United States of America for various reasons.

But I mean, that is Coke territory territory because, of course, Atlanta is the home base.

And there are regions of the South where people just refer to soda as Coke, like all soda.

It's a big deal down there.

So let's start with the media part of this.

Pepsi's ploy to get negative press for New Coke works.

I mean, it really works because headlines that suggest all is well don't move papers.

And no matter how many taste tests prove that New Coke tastes better to a majority of testers, you'll always find people who disagree.

People hate change, especially when they feel like something is being taken away from them.

All of that to say, after a few negative op-eds and interviews circulate, people get genuinely riled up.

And the controversy that wasn't really a controversy snowballs.

So more and more, people decide they want New Coke to go back to wherever it came from.

And fans of Coke start to call the day New Coke premiered Black Tuesday.

That's hilarious.

You're like, go wherever you came from.

Go back.

We're going to call this day Black Tuesday.

I mean, in Coke, they didn't do themselves any favors here.

Up until this point, Coke has spent millions on ads hammering home the point that Pepsi is too sweet.

So does drinking a tiny sip of something sweeter trick you into thinking it's better?

And what would happen if you finished the whole bottle?

Would you still prefer it?

I do enjoy soda sometimes, but I'm overall not a big fan of the sweetness.

And I think I like Coke because it has a little bit of a bite to it.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I don't really drink soda, but I do like it.

a lot.

So I think that's why I stopped drinking it.

You like the idea of it.

Yeah, it's nice.

It's nice to know it's out there.

Yeah, that's what it is.

One news columnist derides New Coke as, quote, sugar plum fairy gag juice swill.

That columnist sounds like a drag queen.

That was a reason of a drag queen, if I've ever

sugar plum fairy gag juice swill.

The library is open.

Yeah.

So when marketing execs from Atlanta pay him a visit and ask him to try New Coke again, he refers to Coke as

daddy juice, which is apparently what the kids call it since dads prefer the taste of Coke to Pepsi.

Really important question.

If you asked for daddy juice at a restaurant, what do you think you would get?

Thrown out?

Thrown out.

Daddy juice.

Now on to the other reason New Coke bombed the South.

Coke, like Paul said, is headquartered in Atlanta.

And with decades of traditional values advertising, Coke became ingrained in the culture.

The soda was seen as an unchanging, wholesome part of life in the U.S., up there with cowboys and baseball and southern pride.

Pepsi, on the other hand, is headquartered in New York State.

If you can see where I'm going with this.

Can you imagine?

Can you imagine?

Can you imagine?

New York, the most disgusting, sin-filled place I can imagine.

Yes.

So by changing the drink and yielding to the northern aggressor, Coke's new recipe is proof to southerners that Coke, like everybody else, will yuppify just about anything.

Forget the cola wars.

New Coke has folded into the culture wars.

Pepsi does a ton of marketing to the, quote, new generation, and they heavily imply that Pepsi is for younger people, whereas Coke courts the older crowd.

Coke, at one point, rejects the pitch to hire future Pepsi spokesperson Michael Jackson because he doesn't fit their, quote, wholesome image.

Coke instead hires Bill Cosby.

Wow.

I don't know.

Why would a drink company hire Bill Cosby?

This is obviously pre-scandal.

Oh, okay.

I'm stupid.

This is not breaking news, pre-charging.

Okay.

I was like, that's wow.

So Koch fans are very upset, which creates an opportunity for one very brave man to lead the charge in defense of choice and freedom.

Gay Mullins is a retired medical researcher.

He's a self-proclaimed concerned patriot who happens to be launching a public relations firm.

Now, even though Gay Mullins is from Seattle, he taps into the southern dissatisfaction that people are feeling.

He spends $30,000 of his own money to found an organization called Old Cola Drinkers of America.

He sounds fun to have at a party.

Their goal is to pester Coca-Cola until their favorite drink is put back on the shelves.

They collect petitions in favor of reinstating Old Coke.

They create a 900 number hotline conveniently.

That 900 number comes with a 50 cent fee.

Wow.

And the old cola drinkers of America even prepare a lawsuit against Coca-Cola to either bring back old Coke or release their secret formula for others to use.

A judge tosses out that ridiculous lawsuit in a week, but it does get Mullins exactly what he wants.

attention.

So here's a statement to the Washington Post in 1985.

Preacher, would you please read this melodramatic rant of Gay Mullins?

I feel injured, betrayed.

I know people who are going through withdrawal without their Coca-Cola.

People are having anxiety, headaches.

They worry that maybe the whole country is beginning to fall apart.

They don't even trust themselves anymore.

They don't trust themselves anymore.

That's kind of wild.

Now, here's what I would like to know.

Coca-Cola, did you actually take the cocaine out of the drink?

Because that sounds like people are going through drug withdrawals.

Yeah.

Imagine how much soda you have to drink in order for this physical effect to happen.

To be fair, sugar is crazy.

Yeah.

Sugar is crazy.

Sugar's crazy.

We all agree sugar is crazy.

Big sugar is going to come after us now.

So Mullins even publicly dumps the soapy new Coke into the sewers as a PR stunt.

Honestly, though, don't you miss having these lightweight problems to deal with?

I mean, yeah, what is it now?

I guess you're either for or against Taylor Swift.

I guess is the closest thing I could think of.

That's that's one.

Yeah, I'm for her.

I'm for her, by the way.

For her,

don't come after me, Swifties.

Yeah, I love Taylor Swift.

I do too.

We all do.

Yeah, but I'm black, so it means

it means a lot more.

Yeah, it just means people don't expect that coming from me.

You know, like when you say it, I'm like, Yeah, of course you do.

Well, all of this is to say, Mullins is a problem for Coke, but it doesn't help that Pepsi is full of opportunistic maniacs making hay out of the rollout.

Spurred on by Pepsi and agitators like Mullins, the public loses their collective minds.

Fans are stockpiling old Coke and even seeking advice on how to store it.

Store Store owners with hefty supplies take the opportunity to price gouge.

People boo ads for New Coke at baseball games.

Protesters in Atlanta held up signs that said, My children will never know real refreshment.

Wow.

I'm surprised it took them so long to get to think of the children.

Think of the children.

Jeez.

Legend has it that even Fidel Castro himself criticizes New Coke.

I thought he killed people.

Yeah.

Is that really a win for Pepsi?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, even CEO Roberto's father says it was the only time he's ever agreed with Castro.

So execs Roberto and Don are stunned by the growing negative reactions.

The Post reports that within a month, 95% of the 2,500 calls a day that Coke receives to its consumer hotline are negative.

Time magazine says that the negative call number is closer to 8,000 a day.

I'm so sorry, Misha.

So normally they're getting calls to their consumer hotline that are positive.

People just calling in to say, just had another Coke, enjoyed it again.

You guys are on a real roll.

Just get called in doing, you know, Yelp reviews.

It's hilarious.

Well, you think 2,000 to 8,000 calls a day?

The company's headquarter receives 40,000 letters a week some of these letters got real weird so we're gonna read a few of them so paul could you start us off

you have fouled up by changing the only perfect thing in the world before the courts fouled up by breaking the phone company there were two perfect things and now that you've changed coke

There are none.

The drama.

I love the idea that the phone company has has a monopoly which just could dictate whatever they wanted to do that was a perfect thing

preacher could you read the next one dear sirs coke has always been like apple pie and mom

okay something you could count on i'm glad the person who came up with this dumb idea wasn't around when mona lisa was painting he probably would have had said that her smile wasn't big enough

like apple pie and mom these really are coming from the south Yeah, it's weird that people, I mean, I guess people need a thing and they chose this as their thing to be invested in, which is kind of like, how bored are you where you're that offended about the

Coke being, I don't know.

That's crazy, you know?

Well, here's how mad they were.

Paul, could you read this one?

Changing Coke is like God making the grass purple or putting toes on our ears or teeth on our knees.

Teeth on our knees is kind of wild.

It is wild.

I don't think the grass being purple would be that bad.

I think it'd be kind of cool.

We could try it for a day.

And it does get even more extreme somehow.

Preacher, one more.

Change the flavor of Coca-Cola would be like tearing down the White House.

Okay.

Oh,

you mean a great idea?

I think I know.

I think I know who wrote that.

I think we know who wrote that one.

Oh, man.

But Coke HQ are not the only ones getting heat for new Coke.

Bottlers, the local distributors who mix Coke's concentrate with water and ship it to stores, they start to get angry phone calls too.

Only a few were told in advance of the coming change.

Some learned about it from the radio.

So the Coca-Cola Bottlers Association demands Coke bring back its old formula.

Roberto and Donald have to do something.

What would you do?

I guess try to invent a new container of some sort

to replace the bottle.

Yeah.

I'd give up.

People forget that's an option.

Yeah, I'd do that.

Giving up is an option.

Just walk away.

Easy.

Easy.

Yeah, absolutely.

Kerosene in a match.

Irish goodbye from the boardroom.

Let them figure it out.

Well, Roberto and Don decide there's only one solution.

Resurrect the sacred cow they slaughtered and bring back the original Coke formula.

This is crazy.

Only 79 days have passed.

Only 79 days after the launch of New Coke, Coca-Cola announces they'll reintroduce what they're calling Coca-Cola Classic while continuing to produce new Coke.

Roberto, Coke's commander-in-chief, admits defeat, later saying, quote, obviously, this was a blunder and a disaster, and it will forever be.

On the bright side, Donald gets to flex his media training at the extremely apologetic press conference.

So here are some snippets from Don's surrender speech as Roberto nods from the audience.

The simple fact is that that all of the time and money and skill poured into consumer research on the new Coca-Cola could not measure or reveal the depth and abiding emotional attachment to original Coca-Cola felt by so many people.

It's a wonderful American mystery.

It's a lovely American enigma.

We want them to know that we're really sorry for any discontent that we may have caused for almost three months.

Thoughts?

That's crazy.

I would love to be introduced as a lovely American Enigma.

I want to make that my standard intro.

So, the announcement is seemingly so vital that esteemed anchor Peter Jennings interrupts ABC's broadcast of General Hospital with the breaking news of Classic Coats' return.

Yeah.

This is big because I remember General Hospital was huge at this point.

Yeah.

Huge.

This is the Luke and Laura era.

This is the ice princess, all this stuff.

This was a big deal.

Well, Coca-Cola sends the very first case of new old Coke to gay Mullins in Seattle via special delivery from Atlanta.

Got it.

Attention must be paid.

Yes.

He announces he's reclaimed America's heritage.

Then he asks Coca-Cola to pay him $200,000 to be their spokesperson.

They decline.

Respectfully.

Speaking of sponsorships, Coca-Cola could use a new spokesperson.

Bill Cosby ends his advertising relationship with Coke, supposedly claiming that his commercials for New Coke hurt his credibility.

Incredible.

Coca-Cola hopes the humble tone, the free case sent to Mullins, and the new ads will put the issue to bed.

Well, they're wrong.

Because Coca-Cola Classic is made with high-fructose corn syrup and not real sugar, the sugar companies see an opportunity to complain.

They solicit comments from Mullins by sending him original old Coke made in Hawaii.

God.

And sugar lobbyists buy full-page ads and newspapers to remind consumers what they're missing.

That's crazy.

And you know who gets fired up by this?

Gay Mullins.

He takes the bait.

So now he's out telling everyone that corn syrup in Coke Classic makes him sick.

Come on, gay.

You're on record as loving it.

Right, exactly, because it turns out Coke's use of corn syrup started years earlier.

Of course.

And, you know, he doesn't even have a good answer as to why it just now

is affecting his sensitive little tummy.

That's hilarious.

And on a televised taste test, he couldn't tell the difference between new Coke and the old recipe.

The Emperor has no clothes.

What a scandal.

Just like our gal George Santos, it does not stop him from lying straight through his teeth.

And he says, Coke killed my taste buds.

I'm starting to come around on this guy.

Now Now I'm on his side.

Well, by the end of 1985, Roberto's greatest fear is realized.

Pepsi has pulled ahead of New Coke and Classic Coke combined.

In its first year, despite half a billion dollars in promo and ads, New Coke pulls in a measly 3% market share.

Well, nobody seems to believe that the Coca-Cola company could be so stupid.

Here we go.

Instead of believing New New Coke was a failed marketing blunder, people come up with conspiracy theories instead.

First one was

it was all a big marketing ploy to drum up nostalgia for classic Coke.

Paul, how plausible is that?

I honestly think that's pretty plausible.

And the thing that lends it plausibility to me is that they themselves said it was a mistake, which I don't think you ever do in the corporate world.

The only other thing I could think of is Domino's when Domino's had that campaign that was like, hey, we

hear you.

You think our pizza sucks.

Guess what?

We're going to try to make it good now.

Yeah.

And you got Keith Lee.

He's massive.

And he went to Chipotle and did a review on their food.

And Chipotle is now switching things up because,

you know, he started it and everybody was like, yeah, your portions are trash.

You know, so I just, it needs to be the majority of people.

Another conspiracy theory was it was a ploy to cover the original recipe switch from cane sugar to high-fructose corn syrup.

Yeah, I remember hearing that a few years back.

I mean, preacher, do you think that's plausible?

That they're trying to be sneaky and cover up that switch?

Absolutely.

Come on, man.

Yeah, wouldn't put past anybody in these boardrooms

with their crusty toenails hanging out.

Like, because they're always in cargo shorts and sandals for some reason, these CEOs.

Either way, Don denies all of these rumors, saying,

The truth is, we're not that dumb dumb and we're not that smart.

And in 1990, New Coke is renamed to Coke 2.

I mean, people hated New Coke.

Maybe Coke 2 would sell better.

I kind of remember that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Coke 2.

And then Coke 2 fully slips into obscurity and in 2002 is officially discontinued.

Like it never happened.

So let's do a little, where are are they now?

To be fair to Roberto, by the time Coke 2 dissolves, his company's value is more than eight times higher than when New Coke launched.

Under Roberto's leadership, the company's stock went from $4.3 billion to more than $152 billion.

So he must have known something.

We stay in a shifty king.

Yeah.

So despite one obvious massive failure, the bounce back was incredible.

But in 1997, he passed away from lung cancer.

Ooh.

Although he's remembered in pop culture as the man behind New Coke, he was also a role model for business folks, naturalized American citizens, and people who are both.

Emory University's Guizeta Business School in Atlanta bears his name and legacy.

Gay Mullins, I'm happy to say, finally found a soda that satisfies his sweet tooth, Jolt-Cola, with 10 teaspoons of sugar per can.

Yum.

Do they still make that?

Actually, no.

Jolt was discontinued on March 29th of 2019, so four years ago.

Oh, yeah.

There was an actual day.

So

we could trace it to the day.

Flag at half mass.

All right.

That's good.

I will put that on my calendar.

Thank you.

So I can observe it in the future.

Yeah.

Donald had an on-again, off-again career with Coke, finally retiring from the board of directors at the ripe old age of 83.

Wow.

So it seems that New Coke wasn't really a blunder of innovation or good intentions, but just an example of how easy it is to get Americans riled up when they feel things are moving too fast.

Now, here on the big flop, we do try to be positive people and end on a high.

So are there any silver linings that you can think of that came from New Coke?

No.

It's a really great question.

I mean, it's hard to even say that it caused them to bring old Coke back because they wouldn't have done that if there hadn't been the New Coke.

So

I guess I learned about Roberto.

That's nice.

Yeah.

It brought all of us together.

That's true.

We would not have met had it not been for New Coke.

Yeah, I selfishly like the people that got upset.

I think they're funny.

Yeah.

I think they're funny too.

You know, we touched earlier, you know, as opportunistic as Gay Mullins was, I do enjoy the little guy going after like any sort of corporate conglomerate.

Tired writers have a fallback when they need to compare a failure to something.

It's a good reference point for something going terribly wrong that didn't have to.

Uh-huh.

Exactly.

Well, now that you both know about New Coke, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop?

I mean, it's definitely a, for me, I'll say a big flop.

I'm going to say a big because the condensed amount of time is really amazing.

There was not even half a year is wild.

It's certainly not a baby, but not a mega because they bounce back.

Still exist.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, and spoiler, Coca-Cola is doing just fine.

Yeah, I'm not worried about them.

Yeah, see commercials and everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Still doing great.

Well, thank you so much to our super sweet guests, Preacher Lawson and Paul F.

Tompkins, for joining us here on the Big Flop.

And thanks to all of you for listening.

Remember, if you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review.

We'll be back next week with an invention that was meant to revolutionize the way we move, but came to a screeching halt.

We'll be gliding through the story of Segway.

Bye.

Bye.

If you like the Big Flop, you can listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com/slash survey.

The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and At Will Media, hosted by me, Misha Brown, produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner.

Written by Anna Rubinova.

Engineered by Andrew Holzberger with support from Zach Grapone.

Our story editor is Drew Beebe.

Our managing producer is Molly Getman.

Our executive producers are Kate Walsh and Will Milnotti for At Will Media.

Legal support by Carolyn Levin of Miller, Korzynik, Summers, Summers, and Raymond.

Producers for Wondery are Matt Beagle and Grant Rutter.

Story editing by Brian Taylor White.

Coordinating producer is Mariah Gossett.

Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freeson Sink.

Our theme song is Sinking Ship by Cake.

And executive producers are Lizzie Bassett, Morgan Jones, and Marshall Louie for Wondery.

We are

on

a sinking ship.

We

are on

a

single kingship.