My Friend, the Serial Killer | 3. Take Us To The Bodies

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A quick warning before we start.

This show contains descriptions of sexual violence and murder.

Listener discretion is advised. It was very hard for me to believe that he was the serial killer that he was.
He was just a regular guy. Do you remember the first time you met Carr? I was on this trip.
This is Dr. Ronald Wright.
Back in 1976, he was the chief deputy medical examiner in Dade County, Florida. The trip he's talking about was a strange one.
Five men heading to New Orleans to try to find some bodies. Five men united by an obsession.

Murder.

And the one leading the way?

Robert Carr, whose confession to murder led to this trip.

He was a delightful guy.

He had a great sense of humor, and he was a great conversationalist.

He's just kind of the guy that, you know, you'd like to be around. Joining Dr.
Wright and Carr were the prosecutor and the two homicide detectives who'd taken the confession. Remember, Carr had confessed to committing murders in three states, but there were no bodies.
Without bodies, there were no provable crimes. So now they'd set out to see if Carr was telling the truth, and if so, if he could remember where he'd put the bodies.
That meant Dr. Wright was going to be spending a lot of time with Robert Carr.
I really enjoyed his company. Somehow Carr seems to have this effect on people.
So he's a guy you could imagine having dinner with. Yeah.
Did you ever have dinner with him, by the way? Yeah, sure. It's where I first ate at a Popeye's restaurant.
I loved it. It was actually lunch.
We generally started out at about 9 o'clock in the morning.

We took I-10 back into Mississippi.

And that was, you know, you had to cross the Mississippi and then you had to drive a long way.

As I recall, it was around noon or 1 o'clock that we had Popeye's.

And we sat there and had Popeye's fried chicken dinner. Spicy.
He had spicy too. Wasn't handcuffed or anything.
I mean, he was just there. And probably a lot of people saw us, but I don't think anybody knew.
At the table, are you talking about what he did? No. We just talk, you know, regular talking about, well, politics is something that came up, certainly.
And other current affairs at that particular point in time time this was you know it's like being at the pub or something that's what it was so he was just one of the guys yeah he's a pretty good guy and and and the nice one i i mean i i've had a lot of friends in my life,

and I would consider to be a friend of mine.

This is My Friend the Serial Killer.

I'm Steve Fishman.

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There's no safe like SimpliSafe. All right, let me just say Dr.
Ronald Wright's outlook comes across as a little unsettling. He's got a professional interest in death.
There's that. You know, I've autopsied about 12,000 people.
But also, Dr. Wright seems tickled by his work, cutting up bodies.
Delighted. When you're doing a decomposed body, it stinks.
It's greasy. It's terrible.
It was the sweet smell of job security. Oh, gosh.
And that job was also an identity. He chose his accessories accordingly.

My pipe was kind of my trademark at that point in time. It was a skull pipe, carved to be a skull.
Seeing that I deal with skulls all the time, it seemed kind of reasonable to have a pipe that was made into a skull. Apparently back then, Dr.
Wright never went anywhere without that pipe. On long drives out to the remote sites where Carr said he'd buried bodies, it'll be Dr.
Wright who grabs the seat next to his new friend, Robert Carr. I talked to him.
It was the drive to the sites would be two to three hours. So I was with him that entire time in the backseat of Dade County's Ford.
And I was very interested in how he selected his victims. Everybody on this trip was interested in the mind of a serial killer.
Dr. Wright was also interested in Carr's methods.
He would pick up children and he'd talk with them. He's loquacious.
You know, he talks easily with everybody. He wasn't, to me at least, able to tell me exactly what he thought would be a good victim from the standpoint of control, but it was control was one of the most important things that he told me that they would put up with and not, you know, basically run away to what he was doing to them.

What was his affect like as he was telling you any of this?

He wasn't depressed. He wasn't apologetic.
He wasn't. It was just matter of fact.

He was like me talking to you right now. He was not any different than that.

Thank you. of fact.
He was like me talking to you right now. He was not any different than that.
I guess we'd call that chilling. I didn't consider it that, but probably most people would.
This road trip had come together quickly.

Carr had confessed and then immediately offered to show where he claimed the victims were buried. But Carr could change his mind at any time, or his public defender might change it for him.
And remember, without bodies, there's no case. Before they left on the trip,

prosecutor O'Donnell says that they had to buy cars some clothes. He was still wearing the ones he'd been arrested in days earlier.
One I remember was kind of funny. A cartoon character, maybe Mickey Mouse, I don't remember.
And pants, just regular, really, you know, stuff you'd get off the rack at Kmart. You make the guy feel comfortable, let him know we're going to treat him like a human being.
And we did, without any promises. Then they get on planes.
Carr sits towards the back with the cops in that funny shirt. No handcuffs.
As the plane descends into New Orleans, Carr points out the window at a desolate Mississippi swamp. That's where I buried one of the victims, he says.
That night, the cops go out to dinner in New Orleans, and they bring along Robert Carr. Carr orders a steak.
The cops give each other a look when they see a steak knife in front of him. Don't do anything stupid, says one

of the cops. Carr chuckles.
He's so comfortable. He goes, you're gonna take me to jail? Of course

we're gonna take you to jail. So what do you think you can go? Can you get a hotel room? He goes, yeah, why not? The next morning they set out from New Orleans to Mississippi.
Charlie's actor Pellick is one of the detectives who'd taken Carr's confession. He's driving that day.
He drives so fast that Carr tells him to slow down. Apparently, Robert Carr is worried about breaking the speeding laws.
Carr is leading this little gang. Everyone depends on him, on his word, and his memory, which they are all amazed by.
Dr. Wright.
We'd be on secondary roads in southern Mississippi, and there's no landmarks, okay? This is all basically swamp land. There's nothing, nothing, zero, zip.
We'd park the car. We'd walk not very far.

You know, 50, 60 feet.

And he'd say it's here.

They reach the spot that Carr has in mind.

Time to dig.

But there's a problem.

No one in the group of homicide professionals wants to get his hands dirty.

Not the prosecutor. I don't want to dig.
For Christ's sake, give me a break. I had some shitty jobs in my life.
Now I'm a lawyer. I didn't sign on for this.
Not the detectives. I know I was not digging a hole.
This is Charlie. Believe me, I work hard, okay? But I'm not going to go out and dig a hole.
I think I did most of the work. That's right.
Leave it to the medical examiner to dig up the body. I like to do the digging.
With that settled, they now just have to follow Carr's instructions. If Robert Carr says to dig there, dig there.
The prosecutor remembers the scene. Robert is pretty much directing everything and watching Dr.
Wright stare. And they're digging and cutting through tall grass.
At one point, Carr takes a ladder, places it across a drainage ditch near where they're digging.

He stretches out on the ladder,

lowers his arm,

and starts fishing around in a pool of water,

collecting evidence of his own crime.

He's about to stop

when someone shines a light into the water.

Carr spots a ring.

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Finally, she said, you're going to kill me, aren't you?

And I said, Tammy, so help me God, I'm going to put you on a plane. After Carr and Tammy were pulled out of the mud by a passing hunter, Tammy would spend eight more days in captivity.
During that time, Carr drove them around, or maybe she did sometimes. At least that's what Carr tells the detectives.

For Carr, it was fun.

This was a relationship.

That's what Carr said he sought with his victims.

Someone he could hurt who'd still tell him he was a great guy.

At night, they returned to the same patch of woods. She said, I want to know when.
And I said, okay, Tammy, wait just a minute. Let me figure out something.
I thought, let's Tammy tomorrow night at the dock for a very new audience. I'll get you on the first plane out of New Orleans back to Miami.
So help me God. And she said, okay, we'll do it.
Pan the door while the way down. I let her drive again just to fill up her confidence that she was more comfortable.
As they get closer to New Orleans, she drives up to a phone booth and Carr calls Eastern Airlines. A ticket agent gets on the line.
I said, what's the next plane you have leaving New Orleans for Miami? You don't have anything going out of here now within the next hour? He says, yes, we do. He says, I've got one in 30 minutes on another airline.
I said, I can't make the airport in 30 minutes. There was no way I could

make it to the airport in 30 minutes. Tammy says, we can fly if we have to.
And I said, Tammy, we can't make it. Tammy's convinced she can make it, but Carr has a different idea.
I said, no, Tammy, we're going back to Mississippi. Tammy has played along.

She's spunky.

She's self-possessed.

She'd let car hurt her. Tammy has played along.

She's spunky.

She's self-possessed.

She'd let Carr hurt her.

And still, she let him think he was a great guy.

Maybe she believes she can stay the course.

She's managed to keep it together for more than a week,

living on alcohol, olives, small amounts of tinned foods. She's lied on Carr's behalf, addressed him affectionately.
But I know, and you know, Tammy is desperate to get home, alive. And now, having missed the flight, she can sense that her captor is having second thoughts.
She slid over by the door and I drove off. I stopped down just a little ways further because I could tell she was in depression.
When I stopped, hit her window down and had her arm out like this, she hit that door handle on the outside, and out of that car she went, running down the sidewalk screaming to the top of her lungs and every other thing. And she's screaming, he's going to kill me and everything else.
And I run down and grabbed her. And I just took my arms around her because there was nobody around, nobody to hear.
And she started breaking down and crying and everything. But she walked back to the car with me.
She got in the car. She went completely, totally wrecked out of her mind.
She couldn't operate her tongue. She was falling a little bit at the mouth.
Her eyes were as if there was nothing left in her head at all. According to Carr, Tammy falls into a catatonic state.
She's broken. There are limits.
She put her hope in that plane. And now the brutality of the past week, psychological, physical, overwhelms her.
I started trying to talk to her. I tried to give her a drink out of the bottle.
She just let it run down her neck. She wasn't there.
One of the detectives interrupts with a question. She wasn't injured.

No, I hadn't hurt her.

As if kidnapping and rape

didn't cause enormous

suffering. He tells

the detectives this back in the interrogation

room.

She just went into a nervous breakdown.

That's

the only explanation I can get.

And finally, I thought, gee, I think we're going to drop her out at the airport like that, I'm going to put her out.

You know, no way that she's going to make it.

She might, you know.

And I just didn't know what to do with it.

And finally, I decided that I was going to have to kill her.

So your father decided you had to kill her.

Why did you decide you had to kill her as opposed to let her go?

I didn't, I couldn't see any way to let her go like that.

Because she couldn't even walk by this time.

What am I going to do with it?

Where am I going to put Leah on a sidewalk someplace?

Carr makes it sound like his thinking is logical, defensible,

as if he imagines that these two detectives see his point.

Well, after she's dead, what are you doing with her? Well, I pulled her out of the car and lay her beside the car. his point.

Carr says he spots an owl that had been living in the tree above their campsite.

He says Tammy would talk to it, sometimes feed it. He'd never screamed before.
He always lived up there, but he never screamed. He was screaming to the top of his lungs, and he screamed all night long.
I couldn't run my throat to dig the hole with her.

Then I went around and I looked at her, you know, and I come back and I just lay on the hood, stick it to my stomach. What did you do after your barrier? I stood outside of the car.
After everything was over with, I stood outside of the car most of the night. That owl looked at screaming.
Carr says that once Tammy was completely covered in earth, only then did the owl fly away. As if that screaming bird was supposed to be a stand-in for his conscience.
Then Robert Carr looks through her few possessions.

He finds her composition book.

Inside, he says she'd written,

God, please let it soon be over.

I can't stand it much longer.

Please let my mom and dad know I'm all right.

Don't let them worry too much about me.

God, I love them so much. I hope they know that.

And now, Carr is back in that same place. It's been less than two months since he kidnapped a

hitchhiker heading to a drive-in in Miami,

stuck the point of a knife in her thigh, and drove her, Tammy Ruth Huntley,

to this deserted spot in the Mississippi woods.

Dr. Wright digs a hole.
It's deep. He carefully clears away more dirt.
And then he sees a shoulder.

I think I grabbed her around her middle and just pulled her out.

She didn't weigh very much, and you lose weight as you decompose.

I doubt if she was 100. pulled her out.
She didn't weigh very much, and you lose weight as you decompose.

I doubt if she was 100 pounds at the time I removed it.

And I just put her right next to the gravesite.

As Tammy's body is exhumed, Carr stands to the side and cries Charlie the detective later testified to that but when Dr. Wright examines her he suddenly thinks Carr's confession is wrong Carr said he strangled, but there are no signs of strangulation.

And without the correct cause of death, the case against Carr won't be straightforward.

Dr. Wright does his autopsy on Tammy right there in the woods, on the edge of the grave,

on a white sheet laid on top of the soft mud. The bodies, as I recall, I just laid on the ground and I was on my knees doing the examination.
I mean, why transport her

to a regular autopsy facility?

That would be kind of like stupid.

Dr. Wright is nothing if not practical.

He starts making incisions,

but the scalpel is dull.

Not very sharp at all.

So he improvises.

He pulls out a pocket knife

I love you. but the scalpel is dull.
Not very sharp at all. So he improvises.
He pulls out a pocket knife that he keeps especially sharp for moments like this. Now he has to figure out the cause of death.
Remember, Carr had said he strangled her. But Dr.
Wright can't find evidence of strangulation. Strangulation produces hemorrhaging in the neck, and it's just not there.
She didn't have any hemorrhage in her neck, and that really flabbergasted me. So Dr.
Wright turns to Carr with a question. I imagine this is something like a professional conversation.
Wright has a question about technique.

So I said, how the hell are you strangling them?

And he said, like this.

The serial killer marches over to Dr. Wright, puts his hand on the doctor's neck.

He took his hand and rotated my trachea underneath the larynx and you just rotate it and it cuts the air off and he did and I did. I couldn't breathe.
Wow. So Carr walks over and says like this and just puts his hands around your neck? No, just his just one hand.
He used his right he's right-handed and he just used his right hand he was pretty strong. So he could rotate my trachea and cut off the air supply.
But, be that as it may, I didn't lose consciousness. Dr.
Wright claims he wasn't worried, even though he couldn't breathe. I had two guys with guns, okay? You don't worry about that sort of thing.
Dr. Wright determined the cause of death, asphyxiation.
Now the serial killer can be prosecuted. After they unearthed Tammy, Carr led the police to find other bodies he'd buried in the South.
One of the two boys was buried near where they found Tammy, the other in Louisiana. The boys had been killed years earlier and had decomposed down to the bones.
Dr. Wright placed the bones in a bag and brought them to the airport.
According to him, he was being considerate of the families. He wanted to save them the cost of having the remains shipped home.
At the airport, a security guard asked the team, what's in the bag? A body, someone said. Everyone laughed and walked on through.
That was the last time Dr. Wright remembers seeing Robert Carr.
I didn't give him a hug. I'm

not much of a hugger person. I did shake his hand.
You remember what your parting words were?

It wasn't anything meritorious. I don't think I told him good luck because I think

at that time I wanted the state to kill him. Meanwhile, I'm in Connecticut and it's another day in the newsroom.
The police scanner is on. You can hear the sound of fire engines go by occasionally.
People are shouting.

There's excitement, deadlines. Phones are ringing in the office.
Someone answers one and suddenly

he's yelling across the desks. Fishman, you have a collect call from a prison.
Everyone takes notice.

I pick up the phone. I accept the charges and I hear a familiar drawl.
One I remember from my

Thank you. Everyone takes notice.
I pick up the phone, I accept the charges, and I hear a familiar drawl.

One I remember from my hitchhiking ride.

Robert Carr.

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My Friend the Serial Killer is a production of Orbit Media in association with Rhyme. Creator and host, that's me, Steve Fishman.
Our senior producer is Dan Bobcoff. Our associate producer and production coordinator is Austin Smith.
Editorial consulting by Annie Aviles. Fact check, Catherine Newhand.
Our mixer and sound designer is Scott Somerville. From Sony Music Entertainment, our executive producers are Jonathan Hirsch and Catherine St.
Louis.

Additional reporting by Daniel Bates, Ben Feuerherd, Andy Thibault, and Francisco Alvarado.