Shawn Ryan on Masculinity, Independence, and Family | Episode 6

Speaker 1 a man,

Speaker 1 it takes being vulnerable. It takes raising kids, and it takes

Speaker 1 monogamous relationships to better society. Look at these people

Speaker 1 that run around their whole life. That's not a good road to go down.
I mean, if you're not trying to better society, then what the fuck are you doing here?

Speaker 2 Guys, I am so excited to bring you the first long-form conversation of the Brett Cooper show. Genuinely, I have been looking forward to this since all of this started.

Speaker 2 I have been promising you guys this for the last month and I've had a bunch of comments and DMs saying, when are the interviews going to start? Well, I was painting trim in this new studio.

Speaker 2 We were hanging shiplap and getting all the wallpaper done. We were building furniture this morning.

Speaker 2 And now we have our first guest here with me today, the incomparable Sean Ryan, host of the Sean Ryan Show.

Speaker 2 And if you guys don't know, Sean is a former Navy SEAL and CIA operative turn podcaster who interviews some of the world's most interesting people.

Speaker 2 His show is consistently ranked in the top three podcasts in the world, as it should be. He has also become a wonderful friend and mentor to me, especially in this transition into independence.

Speaker 2 And so I'm just so honored that he agreed to be my first guest. Sean, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 1 Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 So I'm guest number one.

Speaker 2 You're guest number one. What an honor.
I know. I'm very excited.
No, I'm honored that you came. I wanted actually to start off by asking you, who was your first guest? Do you remember?

Speaker 1 Mike Glover.

Speaker 2 That's a great first guest.

Speaker 1 Mike. Do you know Mike? I do.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Mike Glover. We worked together at the agency.
He was a Green Beret and then started Fieldcraft Survival.

Speaker 2 I love Fieldcraft. It's great.
I think that Fieldcraft has inspired all of my husband's prepping.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's where he goes for all of his information. What took you from doing your tactical training and your gun videos into interviews?

Speaker 1 I just got kind of tired of doing gun training. I mean,

Speaker 1 you know, I had a 14-year career in the SEAL teams and at CIA, and then I was training people and it really took off like really fast and uh i trained kiana reeves for john wick three that created like a lot of controversy that i'd rather not go into but um

Speaker 1 but it kind of left a bad taste in my mouth with the whole tactical

Speaker 1 genre and so i didn't really know what i was going to do but podcasting was obviously getting pretty big and I was going to do that and I was doing reviews and I tried a reality like a reality show like a survival reality show did you go on one no no no I was I was having patrons from my Patreon come into town and I would run them through a scenario like I think the first one was hey you got like a hundred bucks and

Speaker 1 the end of the world's happening and you can go to Bass Pro and buy whatever you want but it's a hundred dollars and then I would grade them on like what they bought we got some acreage south of where I live like a lot of acreage and and so I ran them through.

Speaker 1 What did I do? It was,

Speaker 1 oh, build a shelter

Speaker 1 and things to think about, where you're going to build it, how you're going to build it, like longevity, how close to water, all this stuff.

Speaker 1 And so I sent him out into the woods and gave him a time limit. And we filmed like the process.
I think it's still on YouTube.

Speaker 2 This is probably the coolest thing I've ever heard.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but I was like,

Speaker 1 if I keep doing this, I'm probably going to get sued.

Speaker 1 Somebody's going to fall off a cliff or drowned or who knows and i was doing podcasting at the same time and i just like really liked doing it i thought i'd be horrible at it because i'm not much of a talker but i got tired of i mean you know my background and i wanted guys

Speaker 1 like i just got sick of the same talking heads talking about afghanistan iraq syria yemen what war is like what it was like on certain raids about benghazi and it was like nobody's like talking to the people that were there.

Speaker 1 So I thought it was important to document that history. So I started bringing on guys like Mike and people that nobody had ever heard of.

Speaker 1 And because I couldn't, you know, I didn't, I couldn't get anybody with any big names. And I didn't want big names either.

Speaker 1 And, but I just wanted people that had been there and done that and were on the ground to document history. And everybody knows about the.
veteran suicide epidemic.

Speaker 1 So it was guys that had started businesses that found success or that were, that were trying to find success because I'd already had maybe 250, 500,000 on my YouTube just from

Speaker 1 gun videos and tactics and shit like that. So anyways, we would talk about

Speaker 1 the downward spiral after service and kind of trying to find purpose again. And a lot of guys were doing this through entrepreneurship.

Speaker 1 And so They would come on, we'd document their wartime experience, document their downward spiral, talk about how they got out of it. And then I would kick it out the door.
And

Speaker 1 like these guys' businesses would just like shoot through the roof. And it was awesome.
And so it just stuck. It just stuck.

Speaker 1 And then I and then I wanted to broaden out to be able to talk about other things than just war and suicide attempts and stuff.

Speaker 1 You know, it's heavy, heavy, heavy content and infidelity and addiction and all that kind of stuff that kind of goes with the with the typical special operator lifestyle.

Speaker 1 And so I started going into cartels and then that's much lighter. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, at least it was broadening a little bit, you know? I think I did like nine episodes. It was pretty much all spec ops guys, one cartel guy.

Speaker 1 And then I did this psychedelic journey and I came back and I just was like, I'm going to do whatever.

Speaker 1 Whatever I want to do, I'm doing. I don't care about what the audience wants.
I don't care. I'm just doing what I want to do.
And then it really exploded.

Speaker 2 I was going to ask if you had noticed something that worked and leaned in or whether it was completely driven by you and your interests. But I guess that answered it there.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I was interested in it, but then, like, I mean, there's just nobody that could tap into

Speaker 1 the lives of combat veterans, especially the special operations crowd, like I have been able to. I credit a lot of that to my therapist, but it, like, because I was

Speaker 1 tooting my own horn here, but because I got so good at it, like the audience just fed off that and they wanted more and more and more and more. I mean, we're getting guys

Speaker 1 with

Speaker 1 huge kill counts, lots of combat,

Speaker 1 like the toughest people in the world. They come on and they like break down and cry.

Speaker 1 And to like see a man like that be vulnerable, like it just captivates millions of people. And so I got worried that I was like, man, like I'm never going to be able to do something else.

Speaker 1 I'm never going to be able to have a female in the chair across from me, or I'm never going to be able to talk to a doctor or a politician or whoever, whatever I'm interested in, or Jojo Sewell.

Speaker 2 If she's watching, Sean wants her on the show.

Speaker 1 But yeah, so then I did that experience and I just,

Speaker 1 I was like,

Speaker 1 fuck it, man. I'm doing whatever I want.
I'm going to do whatever I want to do.

Speaker 1 And if the audience is with me, then they're with me. And if they're not, I don't care.
Like, I'm doing this because I want to have fun. I don't want to be a slave to anything.

Speaker 2 And you've stayed independent the whole time, basically. Yeah.
You've had people come and go, but you've, which is very difficult to do. I don't think many have.

Speaker 1 Well, congratulations. You're independent now.

Speaker 2 I know. I'm excited.

Speaker 1 So welcome to the club. It's exciting, man.
I'm happy for you. Thank you.

Speaker 2 And you've been so wonderful. And for those who don't know, Sean's here in Nashville and has been a great source of support.
So I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 And that's why I'm so happy that you're the first guest. You brought something up about your therapist.
You were talking about men coming on the show and being able to be vulnerable.

Speaker 2 I think that there is a prevailing attitude, especially on X in this like manosphere. world where we kind of have this new caricature of men.

Speaker 2 And obviously, I think that it is a response to the softening of men in our society, obviously, and what people are experiencing, but it feels now we've been pushed in the the opposite direction where men are now these caricatures of you can't cry, you can't love a woman, you can't get married, you, you know, being a father's gay.

Speaker 2 Obviously, you know, you're a husband, you're a father, you have these men who are incredibly, incredibly successful, incredibly brave, probably the most masculine men in our society, and they're coming on and crying.

Speaker 2 What, I guess, can you talk about masculinity in your mind and what an accurate representation of masculinity is based on your experience?

Speaker 1 Man, that's a broad question.

Speaker 2 It's a big one.

Speaker 2 I made it broader than it probably should have been. Look, I think

Speaker 1 being a man,

Speaker 1 I mean, if you're not trying to better society, then what the fuck are you doing? It takes being vulnerable. It takes raising kids.
And it takes monogamous relationships to better society.

Speaker 1 I mean, I think, and you know, like anybody that thinks that's like, not what it's about. Look at these people

Speaker 1 that run around their whole life and they jump from woman to woman and they don't have any kids. And then they're 65 years old.
Nobody wants them anymore. Nobody gives a shit about them.

Speaker 1 They've contributed nothing to society. And look at how fucking miserable those people are.
They left nothing positive in society that they've made. They've left no marks.

Speaker 1 They're just lost, lonely souls trying to suck everybody they can into what they've created because they're so fucking lonely they can't even stand it. That's not a good road to go down.

Speaker 1 I mean, I think every man's got to get, you know,

Speaker 1 a certain amount of mischief out of their system to become like the man that they're supposed to be. But if you haven't left a mark on society, you know, whether it's...

Speaker 1 whether it's your kids or your wife or your or whoever, your nieces and nephews, what have you done here?

Speaker 2 And I think that goes for men and women, especially. And maybe it's more of a generational thing, too, where I think a lot of my generation is floating through and trying to get by.

Speaker 2 And we self-diagnose very aggressively. That's the thing that Gen Z does.
It's like, well, we're all depressed. We're all anxious.
We can't change anything. The world is against us.

Speaker 2 And that mindset, I think, has really held us back because now my generation is like, well, then why would we even try? Like, we can't change anything. And it's so crippling.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 when I talk about these guys coming on and getting vulnerable, I mean, I can get to a certain extent, I understand. I mean, these guys aren't fucking crying over spilled milk.
No, nothing.

Speaker 1 I mean, for example,

Speaker 1 the last guy that I had on that broke down was a really good friend of mine, Chris Fettis. And Chris was on a hostage rescue mission for SEAL Team 6, and he had to kill two kids.
And he was a sniper.

Speaker 1 And after that, he just kept having these reoccurring nightmares where

Speaker 1 he would relive that and the kids didn't die like right off the bat. In his dream, they would look up and it would be his son's face on the kid that he just shot.

Speaker 1 And, you know, and Chris isn't the only one that has been through an event like that. I mean, we did 20 years alone just in Afghanistan.

Speaker 1 Then there's Iraq, Syria, Yemen, all these Somalia, all these other places. And these guys, you know, men and women that are coming home, they don't know how to deal with this shit.

Speaker 1 And so when you get a guy like that that comes on

Speaker 1 and he starts to tear up and his emotions, you know, kind of overcome him on display in front of millions of people, that's not like bitching and whining because he got a cut on his finger.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's not weakness either.

Speaker 1 That is, I mean, that's a fucking man.

Speaker 1 right there to be able to come up, open up like that, talk about what he's experiencing, and then all the other combat veterans that have come home that have been through a situation like that.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's fucking masculinity. You know, to be able to do that on display in front of millions of people and not worry about being judged.

Speaker 2 And to be able to move forward from it and set an example of somebody who can grow and live a productive life and start a family and be that example, I think that a lot of people see, you know, vulnerability or crying.

Speaker 2 And that in and of itself is, you know, powerful and it's an important thing, you know, it's an important part of processing.

Speaker 1 They show, and me included, I mean,

Speaker 1 a big theme. I mean, it's not like we have a motto or anything like that, but a big, a theme is, I mean, we bring on

Speaker 2 the

Speaker 1 most badass warriors of this generation, of this lifetime. The commonality between all of us is, you know, it's okay not to be okay and it's okay to get some help when you're not okay.

Speaker 1 You don't have to suck it up and be a fucking tough guy all the time. Everybody knows, man.
You don't have to prove it anymore.

Speaker 2 And it's so hard. It's very,

Speaker 2 I think there's a juxtaposition in our society right now because, again, if we go back to the masculinity conversation, people are definitely overusing therapy, in my opinion, especially young people.

Speaker 2 People claim PTSD for ridiculous things. They claim they're depressed when they're basically just going through hard time.

Speaker 2 That's something that Jordan talks a lot about is convoluting depression with just going through a normal, challenging part of your life.

Speaker 2 And I'm sure it's difficult to try to be like, no, I'm not that, and I'm not feeding into those, you know, those weaknesses and the ridiculousness of what our culture has cultivated.

Speaker 2 But to understand that you still need help, I'm sure that that's difficult for them to walk. And plus, I mean, the support for veterans has been abysmal.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think a big problem is we have rewarded being a victim, and everybody wants to be a victim now. I hit it so hard.
I hit it harder than you.

Speaker 1 I can't like a big thing that I hear with Gen Z is like, oh,

Speaker 1 it's impossible. I can't start a business.
I can't buy a house. I can't do this.
I'm going, I'm going to therapy. My fucking boss was mean to me.
And it's like, man, like, you've got to

Speaker 1 instead of taking that all in and victimizing yourself, I mean, use that as a motivator to get out of whatever the fuck your,

Speaker 1 whatever your hurdles are.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And, and, and use that as, as a driver.

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Speaker 1 As you were saying, Sean, I interview a lot of super successful people, you know, like some of the world's most successful people on my show. And everybody, I mean,

Speaker 1 you have to turn yourself into an innovator when you figure out, you know, well, what are you jealous of? That's what you want to be.

Speaker 1 So, figure out how the fuck to get there, map it out, and figure out a way to get there. I mean, even, I mean,

Speaker 1 I've had tons of people that come up, and they'll, even the employees of mine, they're like, Oh, I can't, I'm never going to be able to buy a house.

Speaker 1 And it's like, well, have you talked to a fucking loan officer? Yep.

Speaker 2 That's the craziest part is people would even take the first step to see if, you know, something is possible.

Speaker 2 Because they've just heard it all they've heard all the other victims yep you know talk about oh okay i can't buy a house it's too expensive oh and people don't want to make themselves uncomfortable like a big thing if we want to talk about like you know the housing market in gen zen houses is they'll talk about like well starter homes i can't afford a starter home everything is five hundred thousand dollars but it's like you're looking within 15 minutes of the city if you're willing to drive 25 minutes if you're willing to have a further commute willing to live in an area that's not $500,000,000, $600,000, you can buy, like, especially here in Nashville, you can buy homes that are, you know, $250,000, $300,000.

Speaker 2 It's possible. I have friends that have done it, but it took for those friends, it took a mindset shift of, is this a priority of mine?

Speaker 2 And if it is, then you have to act like it's a priority and you have to say, okay, then I'm willing to drive the extra 10 minutes. I'm willing to buy the house that has not been newly renovated.

Speaker 2 It's not some custom bill that I'm willing to put in the elbow grease because it's a priority. And if it's not, that's fine, but don't bitch and moan about it.

Speaker 2 Like if you don't want to make those sacrifices, then live in the apartment and that's fine and nobody will judge you. But don't say it's not possible.

Speaker 1 Every time you want to try to find success or if you want something that's hard to get, you're going to have to sacrifice something. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And nobody wants to sacrifice. They just want to victimize themselves.

Speaker 2 And our culture rewards it. Exactly.
So why would they? With any big leap that you take in life or any risk that you're taking, there comes more responsibility.

Speaker 2 There come sacrifices that you're going to make. And hopefully there's a greater reward, but that discomfort is part of it.
And I think that Gen Z just hasn't had to experience that.

Speaker 2 It's also part of the helicopter parenting that I think has

Speaker 2 ruined Gen Z.

Speaker 1 Five years from now, when you walk back up here and you won't be here anymore and you're like, holy shit, this is my camera setup. This was the shiplad I put up the night before the first interview.

Speaker 1 I saw your Instagram. You were painting the fireplace or something last night.
Like,

Speaker 1 that's fucking cool, man. That's a story.
That's overcoming, you know, adversity.

Speaker 1 Like, it's going to build you into whatever you're going to become, which is going to be something massive.

Speaker 2 And you started in your attic. I started for it.

Speaker 1 I started in my attic, you know, and I did the same thing. I was just using barnwood that we ripped off a barn and threw it up there, put some lighting up, had no idea what I was doing.

Speaker 1 And it grew into, I mean, now you know where we're at. We're out of a garage.

Speaker 1 And then six months from now, four months from now, we'll be in a 7,000 square foot brand new studio that we built from the ground up. But yeah, it started in my attic with me and my wife.

Speaker 1 And that's it. Awesome.
Now that room's a playroom for my kids, but we go up there and it's like, man, can you believe like

Speaker 1 this is where it started? Yeah. You know, and it builds a culture and it's, it's just awesome, man.

Speaker 1 Like when it sucks getting started because you don't have all the resources and you don't have everything that everybody else has, but when you build it yourself, then you have everything that nobody else has.

Speaker 1 You know, you can do it.

Speaker 2 Well, it's the same way people talk about you. I've told you, I had the funniest interaction of my show in New York where where the New York Times came up to me and they were like, We love Sean Ryan.

Speaker 2 And I was like, This like lib New York Times, you know, reporter was like, Oh my gosh, we heard that you like Sean Ryan. You know Sean Ryan, we're such big fans.
He won't talk to us.

Speaker 2 I'm like, Obviously, he's not going to talk to you. But you have their attention.
And it's like when you talk to these huge network, it's, you know, you're consistently in the top three.

Speaker 2 You are making, it was crazy to think about you starting in your attic, starting with, you know, friends of yours, pulling them on the podcast.

Speaker 2 And you are now having clips of your podcast being played in confirmation hearings you've interviewed jd vance and trump it's incredible what you've done you're not just changing the media landscape but you single-handedly are changing the political landscape you're changing conversations about national security you're doing you know flying all over the world now you change where were you in Romania Romania causing protests over things you were doing 250 000 people showed up pretty incredible the romanian parliament the next day but i mean you know i just

Speaker 1 don't let this shit get to your head and like i said like all the way back coming out of my psychedelic experience i'm just doing what's in what interests me i'm not letting anything else dictate drive influence what i do the minute i get a hint of that i'm out you know

Speaker 1 and like

Speaker 2 just stay grounded what do you think you know talking about following what interests you i think a lot of gen z and just young people in general feel i have to be in the rat race i have to do this job and provide for my family and obviously, that's a big part of it.

Speaker 2 And a lot of people can't, you know, change the situation at the drop of the hat. But should a driving force be

Speaker 2 finding that thing that interests you? Should you prioritize that over something?

Speaker 2 I don't know, I'd always say prioritize that over something that's safe. But for people who feel like they can't do it, what would you say?

Speaker 1 Try.

Speaker 1 Like, you have to try, you know, and you're going to fail and you should fail. I mean, I failed at a whole bunch of shit.

Speaker 1 It sounds so cliche because people say this shit all the time, but you cannot chalk all your failures up as just failures. Like it's an education.

Speaker 1 Like every time you go and you try something and you fail, like that's an education. That's a learning point.

Speaker 1 You have to be able to self-reflect and get over your ego and all the other shit that goes along with it, but you have to be able to self-reflect and dissect your failures and go, okay,

Speaker 1 what did we learn from this? Why didn't this work? Why did I fail? And then reconstruct it again and make it better the the next time. I mean, we fail at stuff all the time.

Speaker 1 Sometimes I hire the wrong people.

Speaker 1 We've had guests on that I shouldn't have had. It's like I said,

Speaker 1 you have to take a chance. You have to make sacrifices.
And you have to be you. You can't.
Here's another thing that I see all the fucking time.

Speaker 1 When I started my podcast, everybody had the purple curtain behind them, you know, and the headset. and the microphones and all the little trinkets on the desk.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 And I talked about this with Joe when I was on his podcast. And I looked at it and I was like, we're not doing that.
I'm not doing that. Like, I have to be me.

Speaker 1 What represents me. I like interior design type shit.
I like doing it. And so I want to design my own studio.
I wanted to put things in that like meant something to me. You know, like.

Speaker 1 I wanted that sign. Everybody that comes on the show signs that vigilance elite sign.
Now it's like a museum over there. But anyways, like

Speaker 2 it's 100% you.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's 100% me i liked i wanted good camera aesthetics i wanted a moving shot i want i didn't want equipment in the shot i wanted something totally different than i wanted to call it a show instead of a podcast you know what i mean now

Speaker 1 everything's a show

Speaker 1 now everybody has multi-cams you know that look better i had previews for a long time we just cut the previews because We have so many guests coming in thanks to Jeremy, my new producer, that

Speaker 1 we just don't have time to make the previews anymore. But I really wanted it to be like a full production that looked really, really good.

Speaker 2 And I think also with podcasting, I've seen people say, you know, highly produced, great aesthetic, that kind of, you know, multi-cam.

Speaker 2 I think people have attempted that, but they lack the authenticity. They lack it coming from, you know, them.
And so they'll rush that off and say, oh, it doesn't work.

Speaker 2 You got to have the Joe Rogan set up. It's just got to be like you and a folding table and that's what matters.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that might be your thing. You know what I mean? I'm not like, I'm not discounting that.
Maybe it is fold up chairs and a fold up table.

Speaker 2 But it has to be you. Exactly.
It has to be 100% in the fact that it has to be you.

Speaker 1 You cannot, you cannot try to imitate what other people are doing and try to and get success off that because it's not authentic.

Speaker 1 And I think, you know, I don't know much about Gen Z, but from what I've heard, Gen Z really craves authenticity. And so if you're not being authentic, you're not fucking going anywhere.

Speaker 2 And it's hard to, I don't want to say find authenticity in yourself, but you, I think it takes a lot of work. At least this is what I've experienced has been setting up this show.

Speaker 2 You have to really figure out what is you and what you want to portray and put online and create. Cause I think it's very easy to go.
I'll just do a show. I'll just do this.

Speaker 2 But you have to get to the core of why am I doing this? Why do I care? Why am I having this personal? Why am I talking about this issue? And it forces a lot of self-reflection.

Speaker 2 I feel like I've gotten to know myself better over the last six months of, you know, getting to this point that I, you know, even if this was a absolute failure and never went anywhere and nobody ever watched my stuff again and they were like screw you we don't you know like you anymore or whatever it is that would be fine because i've learned i've learned so much about this industry i've learned so much about being my own boss but i've more importantly i've learned so much about me and what i want and who i am as a person and as a you know whatever you want to call this personality whatever that that's worth it for me but it takes i think it's harder work than people think yeah it's it's not easy you'll constantly innovate you'll make minute changes you just and because it's all you you're just constantly trying to be perfecting it.

Speaker 1 What can we do better? What can we do to better? How can we make it look better? How can we make it sound better? How can we crank them out faster?

Speaker 1 How can we get to the people we want to reach? You'll just start solving all those problems one by one, by one, by one.

Speaker 2 And it's exciting to be able to have a hand in it. Who are you going to go after? In terms of

Speaker 2 interviewees. Okay, the two that I want the most are, which we were talking about beforehand, Amanda Bynes.
So she's a former child actor, came out of Nickelodeon.

Speaker 2 She is embroiled in a lot of the Dan Schneider controversy. He has an awful reputation in Hollywood.

Speaker 2 When I was, you know, coming up as a child actor, I don't even know the amount of auditions I would get for untitled Dan Schneider projects. And I was never, like, I'm not from an acting family.

Speaker 2 We're not super, I would say, Hollywood savvy. And even my mom was like, you're not going out for any of those.
Like, that guy's a creep. We've heard awful things.
So she was his protege. She.

Speaker 1 Wait, you were a childhood actor?

Speaker 2 You didn't know that about me? No, I didn't. Yeah.

Speaker 2 What were you in?

Speaker 2 a bunch of random stuff. We started in theater.
My first professional job actually was singing opera at the Atlanta Symphony opera. No kidding? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Then I did a lot of musical theater and then moved to

Speaker 2 Los Angeles when I was 10 because I got too tall to do Broadway and theater, which is a whole other story. They have height requirements if you're under 18.
I did commercials. I did TV shows mainly.

Speaker 2 Like I was on, you know the movie Heather was with Winona Ryder? Paramount did a TV reboot of that. That was like my big thing.
And then it ended up being too politically incorrect.

Speaker 2 So Paramount butchered it and shelved it. I did kids' TV, like Gordon McGibbon's Life, Normal Street.

Speaker 1 Dude, you just told me you grew up in Chattanooga.

Speaker 2 I know. Well, that's where my dad lives.

Speaker 2 I had a whole other life in LA.

Speaker 1 Damn. So when did you move back here?

Speaker 2 Three years ago, Four Daily Wire. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Right on. I had to take a massive risk.
I was 19 years old. Moved across the country.
Thankfully, it was, you know, Tennessee. I still had family here.
I grew up, you know, two and a half hours away.

Speaker 2 Spent summers here. My mom would be in Los Angeles.
My dad would be there. But I was leaving everything I had known for the past 10 years and taking a massive risk.

Speaker 2 I think that was a major piece of growing up that I needed to do. And I had no idea that this would end up being a career or if I even wanted this.
I was just, you know, I had nothing else to do.

Speaker 2 I had decided to stop acting and then had dropped out of law school before I even started. So I was a waitress writing articles for Foundation for Economic Education.
And just I was so scared.

Speaker 1 You were going to go from acting to being an attorney? What kind of attorney?

Speaker 2 2A.

Speaker 2 I wanted to do constitutional. Nice.
And it was because I

Speaker 2 was a liberal arts major with DCLA. So I was, you know, an English-lit major.
And

Speaker 2 I love writing. I love reading.
I love arguing. I cared about trying to make things right and make the world better.
And I was like, well, I'm a good writer. I'm good at critical thinking.

Speaker 2 I guess that means I should go be an attorney. Because if you don't know what you're doing in your life and you were an English major or philosophy major, you go to law school.
Kind of the joke.

Speaker 2 So I took the LSA and did all that. And then I realized first day of my orientation, I realized I should not be an attorney.
I was like, this is an awful idea. What am I doing? I'm an actor.

Speaker 2 I'm like a communicator. I'm going to hate this.
So, yeah, I took the risk and came here, but you learned from it.

Speaker 1 For somebody like me who did start, you know, on my own from the very beginning, I always thought I needed, I needed to be over, I needed to be over there, or I needed to be over there, or I needed, I needed, I needed an agent, or I needed a,

Speaker 1 I needed this, I needed that, and I could never get anybody to pay attention. And then it's like, we went from here to

Speaker 1 now. It's like, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 What are you going to do for me? Oh, you're the best?

Speaker 1 That's what I hear all the time. Well, the best.
We're the best.

Speaker 2 We're the best. I've heard about all the agents banging down your door.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, and it's like decline every time.

Speaker 2 Sorry, dude.

Speaker 2 We're good.

Speaker 1 Maybe I'll go. I don't know.
Maybe, who knows? Never say, never write. But I spent a long time wondering what it was like on the other side of the fence, having never had the opportunity to get there.

Speaker 1 And then, I mean, so that you already know. Yeah.
So again, that's like a you don't have that distraction.

Speaker 2 And I think that that is a learning experience that's priceless.

Speaker 2 I talk about that in terms of education a lot too, because I was homeschooled for the majority of my life, but I went to public school for a year, you know, or actually a couple of years I started in public school.

Speaker 2 And then I went to like a performing arts high school for one year. I, you know, my mom homeschooled me and then I went to a private online school.
I basically did everything except Catholic school.

Speaker 2 It's kind of my joke. And my brothers went to military school.
The other ones went to like a boarding Christian school. Like we basically tried everything.

Speaker 2 And I'm so glad because I can speak to all of it. And I, you know, I really found out as a young person what worked for me.

Speaker 2 And I'm grateful that my parents gave me the opportunity to like evaluate that and become self-aware and figure out what was actually right for me.

Speaker 2 So I think I've taken that into adulthood too, where it's, you know, I'm glad I've tried everything. I'm glad I've been in both situations.
I'm glad I know what works for me and what didn't work.

Speaker 1 What's it like going to public school as a child actress?

Speaker 2 Horrible. Horrible.
But okay, so here's the thing.

Speaker 1 Like, how much fame were you experiencing?

Speaker 2 No, not, none at all. I mean, I was like Z-less.
But the thing is, it's like, I have people like hate comments and they're like, oh, you're a failed child actor.

Speaker 2 I was like paying for my own apartment at like 14 years old. I emancipated myself at 15.
I put myself through college, you know, with acting.

Speaker 2 And I think a lot of people think about Hollywood and they just think about celebrities. But the people who make that industry run are the people whose names you never know, who are doing voiceover.

Speaker 2 Like my, one of my most lucrative jobs that I had consistently in Hollywood was doing basically like ADR, so voiceover for network TV shows.

Speaker 2 So it's like, I still to this day get residual checks from Blackish, which was that show on ABC, because I went in for like three episodes.

Speaker 2 It's huge network television, so they pay a crap ton of money. And there were a couple of episodes.
And they would have me come in with a room of like 10 other people.

Speaker 2 And there were like, there was a big party scene. There was a soccer game.
And we had to pretend to be at those things. Like we were just doing voiceover.

Speaker 2 So so you're like yeah yeah mike get the goal whatever like that kind of stuff you go in for like an hour and it's called uh loop like looping so i was in a loop group it's like and that's like you have so many actors that you have you literally will never know who pop in on different tv shows here and there and they make a normal living they're not super wealthy but they skate by in los angeles they're able to pay the bills they're the ones who the strikes you know hurt the most Yeah, I was actively working, making good money, you know, emancipated myself at 15 for a myriad of different reasons, but was able to, you know, prove to the court at 15, you know, I can pay for myself.

Speaker 2 I had a part-time job at Trader Joe's to make sure that I'd consistently.

Speaker 1 Wow. And you thought you'd be a bad attorney, huh?

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. Trader Joe's is probably like behind this.
Trader Joe's is my second favorite job. Right on, man.
I loved it. So I was actively working.

Speaker 2 I think the weird thing was not fame, but it was that it, so I was, it was for my ninth grade year. I was 12 going into my ninth grade year, which is already, I don't know why I did that.

Speaker 2 I made a PowerPoint presentation for my mom and I said, I want you to let me go to public school because I want to know what I'm missing. Like, I want to know if homeschooling works for me.

Speaker 2 I want to know, I want to have, part of it was so like psychological on my end. I was like, I want to know what it's like to be like an American kid in like public school.

Speaker 2 It's going to be great for my acting career too, because I'll be able to like play a high schooler.

Speaker 2 And so I made this presentation. She was like, you know, I can't deny.
It's great. Let's try it.
And she's awesome.

Speaker 2 And so we literally moved to, from LA, she rented a house in Atlanta, Georgia, randomly, because the best performing arts high school in the country is in Mabelton, Georgia.

Speaker 2 It's the best magnet performing arts high school. And I had a bunch of friends that were going there.
I applied, got in, 12 as a freshman. So already I was the odd one out.

Speaker 2 But I think the thing that was the hardest was not that I was like the professional actor or any like fame, whatever, because I didn't have that, but that it was I had already been out in the real world.

Speaker 2 I had, you know, had jobs. I, you know, had had to deal with my taxes at 12 years old.
Like I was 12 years old realizing I'm being taxed with a representation. Like I can't vote.

Speaker 2 I had to deal with lawyers and agents and managers. I was in meetings with casting directors representing myself.
And, you know, I was dealing with directors and producers.

Speaker 2 And I was surrounded by people who were, you know, 15 to 18 years old who had never even worked a part-time job. And that was in college as well.

Speaker 2 My friend group at UCLA, this is, you know, if we want to get into Gen Z, had never worked a job ever. There's like 20 year olds who were in college, had not like they were shocked.

Speaker 2 Number one, one that I was an actor. They thought that was kind of cool, but that I worked at Trader Joe's throughout.
They were like, why would you, why?

Speaker 2 Like, you can just go to college and not work. I was like, well, some of us, our parents aren't paying.
But also, it's like acting isn't consistent. You know, you might book a job here.

Speaker 2 You might work. Like, I'd rather have money all the time.
Plus, it's discipline. I would wake up at 4 a.m.
and go work the 5 a.m. shift at Trader Joe's and then go to college classes afterwards.
Wow.

Speaker 2 Wow. Anyway, so the whole thing was weird.

Speaker 1 Man, I had no idea.

Speaker 2 I know. I feel like we just skipped a whole thing I could have told you about on your podcast.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, we'll go into more detail. We'll go into more detail.

Speaker 2 But that's why I really want to interview Amanda Bynes. I mean, she was the darling of Hollywood.

Speaker 2 And they chewed her up and spit her out, and she was just left hanging to dry and ended up in a conservatorship. She's now out of one.
She's like, right now, trying to piece together her life.

Speaker 2 She was trying to get, you know, her certification to be a nail artist. She's now doing painting.
Like, she's finally seeming like she's

Speaker 2 not back to her. But in those situations,

Speaker 2 I don't think, and it's weird to tie that to, you know, the guys in your life, but you don't ever go back to who you were before you were abused, before you experienced PTSD.

Speaker 2 I mean, I don't think you know this. My brother has schizophrenia.
He will never, even if he's on meds, even if he heals, he'll never be the person he was 10 years ago before he had his first break.

Speaker 2 Amanda Bynes will never be who Amanda Bynes was on Nickelodeon at 15 years old that we all knew and loved. But nobody's talked to her.
And people have speculated about her.

Speaker 2 And it's kind of like the Britney, I know you want to interview Britney Spears. It's like that that kind of thing.
If you have no idea what

Speaker 2 goes on in her mind and what she's actually experienced, we've gotten bits and pieces thanks to documentaries and people who know her. Yeah,

Speaker 1 it's like they're trying to hide it.

Speaker 2 I mean, Nickelodeon had them sign NDAs upon NDAs and non-disparagements and all of this stuff. And so, and there are very few people who didn't sign.
Yeah. And those have been able to speak out.

Speaker 2 And one did sign, but then wrote a book. where the characters were named different things.

Speaker 2 That was the book, I'm Glad My Mom Died. It was a girl from iCarly, iCarly, Jeanette McCurdy.
But yeah, they've kept it completely silent.

Speaker 2 And to this day, that guy, Dan Schneider, if you speak about him, if you don't say allegedly, all of this stuff, I mean, his legal team will come at you. Doesn't matter who you are.

Speaker 2 If you're just a random YouTuber, and they have the power to do that. So it's like, imagine if they're doing that to people who are just talking about the story.
Imagine what they did to somebody who

Speaker 2 people have claimed and speculated. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So that's my top person. That and Baron Trump.

Speaker 2 Two very polar opposites.

Speaker 1 That would be a good one. That would be a good one.
So what do you, I mean, will there be a commonality?

Speaker 2 That's actually something. So you were talking about your wife being a partner in all this.
Alex, my husband, is very involved.

Speaker 2 You know, we have a very tiny team and he's, I think, the creative genius behind a lot of my best ideas, to be honest. And so he's, and he's a strategist.

Speaker 2 So he's been pushing me on that in terms of, you know, you need to under, and that's kind of what I was talking about of understanding yourself and finding what's authentic is he's kind of been the driving force of, you know, why are you doing this?

Speaker 2 Why do you care so much? So he's pushed me on a lot of those questions because I have all these people that I want to talk to. He was like, what's the real reason why?

Speaker 2 And I think it's that you have a story that people haven't heard before. And so it's like with you, when I was like, oh, I should talk to Sean, it's because there's so much about

Speaker 2 your,

Speaker 2 not even your past in, you know, special ops and military, but it's your journey of getting here, your life as a husband and a father that I think people don't get to hear about as much.

Speaker 1 I love being a dad. It's awesome.
And it's hard. The balance between, especially being an entrepreneur,

Speaker 1 the balance between being a husband, a dad, and an entrepreneur is

Speaker 1 really tough.

Speaker 2 How do you make it work?

Speaker 1 You know, we talk about this a lot on my show. I always ask these ultra-successful people, you know, how they find the balance.
Nobody has the answer. Nobody has the answer.
But, you know,

Speaker 1 I've kind of chalked it up to, I mean, if you can go home and your kids are happy,

Speaker 1 legitimately happy, like if you go home and you feel and experience joy

Speaker 1 in their lives and you see it in their eyes and the same with my wife you must be doing all right

Speaker 1 you know but there's always like there's always this tremendous amount of guilt and you know the other thing is like me and my wife have a framed like

Speaker 1 i don't know 24 by 12 maybe picture frame that we nailed to the wall and we just have like all the years stuff that we want to do and things that we want to accomplish it's like our goal we do it every January.

Speaker 1 Some of the things on there, like one is just like, don't make anything about money. Like, just don't do it.
Then you become a slave to something. I don't know, man.

Speaker 1 I don't know what the perfect balance is, but I think that's like the most important thing is if you can go home and you can not only experience, but you see

Speaker 1 joy. and happiness in your kids, in your spouse's eyes, you're doing all right.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, family is more important than anything, which is why I only feed my family meat from Good Ranchers.

Speaker 2 Now, guys, did you know that over 85% of the grass-fed beef in stores is actually imported? And that is because the country of origin labeling law was repealed in 2015.

Speaker 2 So now, meat in our American grocery stores can be packaged here in the U.S. and earn a product of the USA label, even if it was born, raised, and harvested overseas.

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Speaker 2 But goodranchers.com is changing everything. Good Ranchers meat is born, raised, and harvested right here in the USA by American Ranchers, so you know exactly where it comes from.

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Speaker 2 With goodranchers.com, everything you need to create delicious meals for your family is just a click away. And at goodranchers.com, you can also check out my exclusive box.

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Speaker 2 Visit goodranchers.com today, and don't forget to use my code Brett to claim your free meat and $25 off. All right, back to you, Sean.

Speaker 1 Where I was going with the don't make things about money thing is if you start making everything about money, you'll be on the road all the time.

Speaker 1 Like one of the things I learned with the agent is like, I want to be a businessman. Yeah, I want to be, I want, of course, I want to be wealthy and make a lot of money.
Who doesn't, right?

Speaker 1 But the one thing that I like with the agents and everything is I had to be everything. I have to go on a speaking tour.
I have to write a book. I have to do the podcast.
I have to do more podcasts.

Speaker 1 I have to. And it's like.

Speaker 1 You're basically starving my kids of a fucking father.

Speaker 1 And you're starving my wife of a husband all for money, which there won't even be any time to spend the fucking money because you guys have sold me out.

Speaker 1 Every minute of my life would have been sold out. And so that's why I got rid of all of them and I went another direction.
And I didn't want anybody in the entertainment business, whatever.

Speaker 1 But I want to build other verticals that don't involve me all the time. Like I just, I'm not going to do it, man.

Speaker 1 I'm like, yeah, I probably could be making 10 times the fucking money I'm making right now, but I'm not going to do it because my kid won't have a dad and my daughter won't have a dad and my wife won't have a husband.

Speaker 1 I mean, we all know how that story ends up. Then you have kids with no fucking masculinity in their life and they turn out to be a disaster.
And I'm just not willing to make that trade.

Speaker 1 I don't know where I was going with this.

Speaker 2 That was a good brand. What is your, the key to your relationship with your wife, do you think?

Speaker 1 Communication and openness. I bounce everything off my wife.

Speaker 1 Every business decision, every person I'm going to hire.

Speaker 2 I mean, everything. She's a partner, truly.

Speaker 1 Yep, she's a partner. I mean, even though she's not, you know, she's not at the beginning, like, I couldn't have done it without her.
She was literally,

Speaker 1 we taught ourselves how to run the cameras. Now, you know,

Speaker 1 she's the mom and she does a phenomenal job, but it's just always checking yourself, you know, and, and being open and dropping my ego.

Speaker 1 And when she tells me something like, you're working too much you're you're you're working too much and then you come home like this is the latest one and this was probably a month ago and it made me feel like shit but she was right you know she's like you're working too much I know you you know you've tripled your team since October but you're gone all the time you're you're you're constantly at work you're trying to get things going and you come home late at night, then you want to talk to me about work and my son will be

Speaker 1 spouting off, trying to get my attention, and I'll immediately discipline him. And she's like, in his eyes, it's like, who the fuck is this guy?

Speaker 1 He comes home, hasn't been home all day, comes home, doesn't want to hang out with me.

Speaker 1 He's talking to mom. I want his attention.
And then he disciplines me immediately. She's like, you really, you have to like reassess and just love, love, love him.
That shit hits.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? But you have to, you just have to be willing to like have those deep discussions and realize like, oh, man, I've been fucking up.

Speaker 2 It's humbling to have somebody who knows you better than yourself in a lot of ways and knows what you can be and what you could be and knows you at your happiest and is like, it's not, this is not it right now.

Speaker 2 And I think in times when I've been so clouded and I'm just in it and I'm completely, you know, bogged down by everything else, having somebody who's pulling back the curtain and saying, this is not sustainable in the slightest.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You have to be willing to listen listen to the stuff that you don't want to hear.
Yeah. You know, and that's tough to do.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I think the other thing is, like, you just, you have to make time. I mean,

Speaker 1 you have to make time. You have to be able to separate from all of this, which is going to be hard for you to do because it said, it's here.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 But you have to make the time to like.

Speaker 1 be his wife. And I have to make the time to be my wife's husband and to shut it down.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 1 whatever that takes, we go on trips. You know, another thing like when you have kids, like, and I don't say this in a bad way, but you lose who you were.

Speaker 1 Me and my wife, like, we have to have somebody come in and watch the kids every couple months, even if it's just a weekend.

Speaker 1 You know, like, even if, like, we just went to the four seasons in Nashville and just didn't leave the room and did room service and

Speaker 1 had a great time. But, um,

Speaker 1 but uh, you just, you have to,

Speaker 1 it just takes that that so that you can, so we can get back to being Sean and Katie, you know, even if it's just for 48 hours, even if it's just for 24 hours. But like, it's a great recharge.

Speaker 1 It freshens you up. It makes you a better dad, better wife,

Speaker 1 a better husband, a better dad, a better mom, a better wife, because, you know, you're refreshed. I think that's another key component is just communication, being open.

Speaker 1 listening to the shit you don't want to listen that you don't really want to hear and you know that connection of who you were before kids, before, before entrepreneurship, like who you fell in love with.

Speaker 2 I want to ask one more question that kind of ties in with that and I'll let you go. I have so many young people who watch the show.

Speaker 2 And I think one of the biggest issues with my generation is obviously dating.

Speaker 2 We weren't taught how to date.

Speaker 2 Like, you know, Mike, I always joke that like my first dating experience was on Snapchat. Like I was never asked out in person.

Speaker 2 I was always, you know, people slid into my DMs or we, you know, we downloaded Tinder and Hinge. That was the first way that we dated.

Speaker 2 So there's a lot of like societal issues in that regard, but I think people are just struggling. And I think a lot of people also don't know what to look for or even how to present themselves.

Speaker 2 But specifically for young men, when you're dating with intention and you're looking for the person that you want to marry, I guess, what would you advise young men look for in women?

Speaker 2 I mean, because this can also help the women too. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Man, what would I look for? I mean, you obviously have to be attracted.

Speaker 1 You know, that's, it's just not going to work if you're not but it doesn't mean you have to get the center fold playmate you know and i think so many that's just ego and i think so many men like that shit wears off man it does like i don't care who you are it wears off eventually and you're just going to want more and more more and more and so kind of what i'm getting at is is just one like when you go out and you're meeting people

Speaker 1 other like you have to be yourself like you have to be yourself to see how you actually connect with the other person.

Speaker 1 Because if you're not, if you're being somebody else to try to impress them, then you're building yourself into a fucking character and you're going to have to be that character for the rest of your life, which is exhausting.

Speaker 1 It's like imprisoning yourself right at the very beginning. And so, you just have to be yourself and see how you connect with that other person.

Speaker 1 And if you don't connect, I, you know, what I see a lot of young people doing too is they try to force it. Like, oh, I can make this work.

Speaker 1 If it doesn't fucking work and there's like not the connection, if you can't be yourself, that's not who you want to be with, man. It's just, it's not.
There has to be a natural human connection.

Speaker 1 And if it doesn't, you know, like quit trying to force it. If there's not a connection, that's okay.
Move on to the next one.

Speaker 2 Why waste the energy?

Speaker 1 Exactly. Too many people try to force it and

Speaker 1 it just never works out.

Speaker 2 Connection first.

Speaker 2 I think the theme of you is being 100% yourself, which is a testament to you. I think it's the reason why you've blown up in the way you have, the reason why your marriage is strong.
Well, thank you.

Speaker 2 It's a good thing. Thank you for coming on the show.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 My pleasure. Best of luck.
I'm excited for you. Thank you.

Speaker 2 I'm reaching over the mic. Thank you.