S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis

Speaker 2 We, the people, in order to form a more perfect union.

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Speaker 11 Hey guys, we've got a great double header for you today.

Speaker 39 Mallory McMorrow announced she was running for Senate yesterday, so I'm planning to have her on to discuss the campaign and more.

Speaker 41 And then I wanted to bring in somebody who had real expertise on what's happening with the markets and the tariffs following yesterday's Liberation Day announcement.

Speaker 46 And so we brought in Tracy Alloway, who's a very insightful observer of what is happening in the markets.

Speaker 45 She writes a newsletter and does a podcast with my guy, Joe Wisenthal.

Speaker 9 So she, I think, is going to educate us.

Speaker 48 I'm going to have more economy experts on in the coming weeks and months because that is what Donald Trump has thrust upon us.

Speaker 41 And so look forward to that.

Speaker 49 And we'll probably have Tracy back when the time is right.

Speaker 44 But before we get to it, since we got so wonky and nerdy in that first segment, I want to emote with you guys for a second.

Speaker 7 It is fucking insane that we are here with regards to the stock market and the economy.

Speaker 48 I mean, as I am taping this right now, the NASDAQ is down five

Speaker 48 percent, almost six percent, really. The SP 500 is down four and a half percent.

Speaker 8 This is all self-inflicted.

Speaker 56 None of this had to happen.

Speaker 8 There is not a bubble that has burst.

Speaker 55 There is not some issue in the credit markets.

Speaker 51 There were not a bunch of credit default swamps being bundled.

Speaker 16 This is not the big short.

Speaker 57 This is not a global recession.

Speaker 58 This is not a pandemic.

Speaker 51 It is just Trump chaos.

Speaker 44 Any pain you have in your retirement account or your 401k right now is only due to Trump chaos.

Speaker 10 If you're one of the people who are going to lose their job over this, it's only due to Trump chaos.

Speaker 55 And here's the thing.

Speaker 9 Trump's whole career has been failures like this.

Speaker 10 This was utterly predictable across every metric.

Speaker 61 We screamed it from the rooftops here at the Bulwark and elsewhere.

Speaker 13 He bankrupted a casino.

Speaker 12 How do you go bankrupt in the casino business?

Speaker 33 Trump stakes, Trump airlines, Trump water fail, fail, fail.

Speaker 10 He's failed at everything.

Speaker 62 He was a horrific businessman.

Speaker 41 He was a good marketer.

Speaker 9 And we can be honest, he's been a pretty good political manipulator.

Speaker 55 That's what he's good at.

Speaker 40 He's a con man.

Speaker 58 He's good at conning people.

Speaker 49 But we are all about to experience

Speaker 47 unbelievable pain, unbelievable economic pain

Speaker 9 because people who should have been smarter than this went along with the con.

Speaker 57 People who should have known better, who should have known Trump for who he is, went along with this and decided to take this risk because they thought maybe they might get a little tax cut or maybe there might be a little regulation cut that might help their business.

Speaker 45 Well, guess what?

Speaker 43 All of your fucking businesses are going into the tank right now, and it's hard to see a way out.

Speaker 54 Tracy Alloway will talk about that in a little bit more dispassionate way.

Speaker 43 Up next,

Speaker 39 she'll educate us, get us smart on what's happening.

Speaker 38 After that, we'll get to Mallory McMorrow.

Speaker 39 Very much look forward to it.

Speaker 65 Stick around.

Speaker 3 Hello and welcome to the Bulwark podcast.

Speaker 6 I'm your host, Tim Miller.

Speaker 53 We are on the morning following Liberation Day, and we have been liberated from the value of our 401ks.

Speaker 67 I want to talk about that and much more with one of my favorite finance journalists, Tracy Alloway.

Speaker 44 She's the co-host of Bloomberg's Odd Lots podcast, alongside the stalwart Joe Wisenthal, and also author of the Odd Lots newsletter.

Speaker 54 How are you doing, Tracy?

Speaker 8 I'm good, thanks.

Speaker 68 There's a lot going on, huh?

Speaker 63 Busy morning. Thanks for taking the time with us here at the Bulwark.

Speaker 69 I'm just pulling up my little Bloomberg account here because we're

Speaker 70 right off the top.

Speaker 69 Not looking great.

Speaker 22 Traders is the word you guys have got up here on the website.

Speaker 45 That's right.

Speaker 68 And you've made this tricky by recording at exactly when the market actually opens. But I think at this point, we all know the direction is going to be down, right?

Speaker 68 The announcement in the Rose Garden, Liberation Day, was a lot worse than a lot of the professional economists and analysts analysts were expecting.

Speaker 68 And this morning, if you look at my inbox, it's just a flurry of notes with the words recession and stagflation in them. Everyone is rushing to revise their forecast for the rest of the year.

Speaker 68 Most of the notes that I've seen are forecasting a dip in GDP. So that would be a recession.
And a lot of them are ratcheting up.

Speaker 68 inflation outlooks as well going to as high as four or five percent that's a pretty big deal given that we've just been seeing inflation actually come down.

Speaker 70 It is quite a big deal.

Speaker 58 And I want to get into kind of exactly what the announcement was with the tariffs and the big picture economic stuff.

Speaker 48 But initially, I just have to react to the fact that your friends in the finance world, your sources, the people you talk to, there did seem like a level of surprise.

Speaker 41 And over on CNBC, after the announcement, they said it was the worst of worst case scenarios. Obviously, the market is reflecting surprise.

Speaker 46 You know, as you said, by the time this post, things might be different, but NASDAQ opened down 4%,

Speaker 46 Dow down 2.5%, S ⁇ P 500 down 3%.

Speaker 63 Why are they surprised, I guess, is my question.

Speaker 50 They could have just listened to Trump or listened to the bulwark or listened to Newsmax.

Speaker 57 It wasn't like there was a secret here. I mean, he said it was his favorite word.

Speaker 46 You know, he kept promising it.

Speaker 54 Why didn't they believe him?

Speaker 68 A couple of reasons. I think it's a totally fair point to make.

Speaker 68 I would say the main reason when it comes to finance professionals, it's really hard for them to imagine someone in power doing something that is so clearly against the grain of, you know, canonical economic thought.

Speaker 68 I don't think there's a single, you know, seriously taken economist out there who actually thinks that destroying global trade is going to help the American economy actually go up.

Speaker 55 So they just didn't think he could possibly be this much of a moron.

Speaker 41 Like it was like, it was unimaginable to them that it could be, that he could be that dumb is essentially it.

Speaker 68 Well, the other thing I would say is like that's the case for a lot of non-professional armchair economists as well, right? Even Trump supporters.

Speaker 68 When you talk to them about, well, what do you think Trump wants to impose these massive tariffs? That seems like a big deal. They'll say, well, you know, Trump, he just says stuff.

Speaker 68 He's not necessarily really going to do it. And then lo and behold, he actually does it.

Speaker 68 And even now, after he's done it, there's still plenty of people who are arguing about whether or not this is just a negotiation tactic and whether or not some of the tariffs are going to come right back down.

Speaker 52 Well, I guess I had the benefit of having to obsess over Donald Trump.

Speaker 72 There's a lot of downsides to that, you know, having to know a lot about Donald Trump, having that take up space in my brain.

Speaker 41 But

Speaker 49 one thing that you could realize is

Speaker 39 he bankrupted basically everything that he ever said.

Speaker 37 He bankrupted a casino, and he is a very good PR person and a very good media person.

Speaker 41 He was never really that good of a manager of businesses.

Speaker 44 and we're seeing that now. But I guess maybe they all thought since the first term had three good years, I guess that was it.

Speaker 44 You know, that's the rationale that he didn't do it the first three years of the first term.

Speaker 68 Yeah, I mean, the media story is strong, right? And by the way, if Trump is living rent-free in your head, maybe you should impose a 30% tariff on that. That's one idea.
How would I collect that?

Speaker 37 It's kind of similar to, I don't know, did you see his bleat the other day where he said that we are the fentany smugglers are going to have to pay tariffs, tariffing the value of this?

Speaker 39 So, whatever vehicle he uses to tariff the fentanyl smugglers, I'll use to tariff him, I guess.

Speaker 8 That's right.

Speaker 68 It's all very confusing. And I got to say, like, when you look at some of the tariffs that have been unleashed, there are weird things in there.
Like, I was just writing about this, actually.

Speaker 68 There's a 30% reciprocal tariff imposed on Nairu, which is this tiny island in the South Pacific that mostly exports like fish and pig meat and some phosphates, but not that much anymore to the rest of the world.

Speaker 68 Even if you think this isn't necessarily an economic tool, it's a political tool, it's a tool of diplomacy, maybe.

Speaker 68 The question is, what exactly do we want from a place like Nairu?

Speaker 68 I can't imagine that like many Americans want to become phosphate miners. America's fishing industry has been in decline for a long time.
And in fact, there are...

Speaker 68 There's other things the Trump administration is doing that reportedly are hurting the fishing industry right now. So it's just all very confusing.

Speaker 68 And I think, like, the big question is, what exactly do we want? Like, when do we declare success from these particular policies?

Speaker 64 NARU has been screwing us for years, Tracy.

Speaker 52 You don't understand.

Speaker 80 Our leaders have been too dumb, and NARU has been taking advantage of them.

Speaker 56 Let's talk about some of the specifics here.

Speaker 41 JP Morgan calls it the largest tax increase since 1968.

Speaker 70 James Sorowiecki caught this, and you're kind of alluding to this here, but the reciprocal tariffs is a little bit of a misnomer, actually, because they didn't really look at the other countries' tariff rates.

Speaker 56 They looked at the trade deficit, I guess.

Speaker 66 So this is James's example.

Speaker 79 Indonesia exports 64%

Speaker 44 more than they import from us.

Speaker 66 So we used 64% as the baseline.

Speaker 41 And we were very generous, actually.

Speaker 40 We only did a half of only half of that.

Speaker 79 So 32%.

Speaker 41 This is like nonsense math.

Speaker 57 I mean, like, it's...

Speaker 65 It's much more than a reciprocal tariff, actually.

Speaker 68 It's all very weird. There was a lot of confusion when they released the numbers yesterday, because at first, no one could figure out what those figures were actually based on, to your point.

Speaker 68 And it does seem like they basically made a simple math calculation where they took the trade deficit and divided it by exports.

Speaker 68 And I got to say, like, if you look at the table, you start seeing some very strange stuff. So South Korea, for instance, has a higher tariff rate than Brazil.

Speaker 68 We have a free trade agreement with South Korea and tariffs are coming in higher than Brazil, which actually does compete a lot with the U.S. in agriculture.
It's just weird.

Speaker 68 And then the other thing to remember is that famous billboard that Trump trotted out, that was just the reciprocal tariffs.

Speaker 68 So these tariffs are coming in on top of other tariffs that have already been imposed.

Speaker 68 So for instance, China, it's getting an additional 34% tariff, but it had 20% worth of tariffs imported, sorry, imposed on it earlier. So its effective rate is now 54%.

Speaker 37 Right.

Speaker 39 Yeah, I don't think you should feel bad or anyone should about being confused by this because this Treasury Secretary, Scott Besant, was on CNN last night, and Caitlin Collins asked him, asked him about that very issue, the China issue.

Speaker 49 They said, well, you said it's 34%.

Speaker 39 So is that on top of the existing 20?

Speaker 54 And Besson was like,

Speaker 82 I believe it is.

Speaker 58 He couldn't even say with confidence that, and it does turn out, yes, that it was.

Speaker 44 I mean, the chaos is stemming from that.

Speaker 41 Like, it felt like somebody that was honestly what it felt like to me, Tracy, and this is maybe outside your wheelhouse of knowing the Kremlinology of the White House, but it felt like the people didn't really, even inside, they didn't really believe Trump, and they were cramming on their midterm and had to push something out before April 2nd.

Speaker 45 It's like, oh, shit, he's really serious about this.

Speaker 49 We got to come up with a billboard.

Speaker 68 This is exactly to your point earlier about why didn't people expect this? I mean, people in the administration don't seem to have expected this, right?

Speaker 68 Trump was talking about tariffs all of last year, and that's his big thing. I mean, someone pointed out earlier that he's been talking about tariffs when he was like on Oprah in the 1980s.

Speaker 68 It's a long-held belief.

Speaker 68 And yet, you know, we are months into the new administration, not that many, to be fair, but we are certainly a lot more months longer into his campaign, his planning for taking a new presidency.

Speaker 68 And here we are, and no one seems to have worked out the details, much less communicated them to people,

Speaker 68 people you would imagine are important, like Besson.

Speaker 21 Like the Treasury Secretary, yeah, you would think.

Speaker 83 Also, just worth noting that Russia Belarus was not included in the reciprocal.

Speaker 41 Everybody can just sit with that if they want.

Speaker 27 I want to get into your newsletter about the long-term effects.

Speaker 65 Was there anything else about kind of the details of yesterday that stood out to you?

Speaker 68 Well, the other thing I would say is all of these reciprocal tariffs, they're focused on goods, right?

Speaker 68 Actual exports, things that Americans like to buy, I don't know, t-shirts, Nike sneakers, whatever.

Speaker 68 When we're talking about economic losses as a result of the tariffs, it's not just that these products become more expensive for Americans.

Speaker 68 It's also that they start to lose some of their associated, I guess, brand value.

Speaker 68 So, for instance, if I'm, I don't know, a teenager over in China, am I going to want to buy a bunch of Nike gear nowadays? I'm not sure that's clear.

Speaker 68 You know, it's becoming more expensive potentially, even in China. And at the same time, that brand value is diminishing very, very quickly.

Speaker 68 So there are all sorts of intangibles, soft power that are wrapped up in the taxation of actual things.

Speaker 21 Yeah, you're seeing this in Canada.

Speaker 78 I think it was starkly, right?

Speaker 84 A friend of mine said, I'm forgetting if it was their sibling or their friend or whatever, is living in Canada and keeps sending them photos from the grocery store of how like no one is buying any of the American products.

Speaker 46 Like they're the only things left on the shelf because people are like, F this.

Speaker 41 Yeah, I mean, part of it's the tariff, but part of it is, like you said, the associated brand value.

Speaker 54 So, you had a great newsletter on the other kind of long-term effects on this

Speaker 46 earlier this week.

Speaker 80 And there were two things that jumped out to me: one was just even if this turns out to be kind of a bluff, which this doesn't seem like to me, like, there could be long-term impact on inflation and prices.

Speaker 73 And also, you know, it's going to benefit the bigger companies over the little guy.

Speaker 65 So, talk about both of those.

Speaker 68 Sure. So, the thing that markets and investors hate the most has to be uncertainty, right? And boy, are we seeing a lot of uncertainty lately? We are seeing it

Speaker 68 at the consumer level, in the confidence surveys, but we're also seeing it in things like the manufacturing surveys. The Dallas Fed put out a really interesting survey of energy companies in the area.

Speaker 68 And everyone is scratching their heads trying to figure out what all of this means for their business.

Speaker 68 A lot of them are talking about, well, maybe we're not going to invest as much capital over the next year because we just don't know what's going to happen.

Speaker 68 Like, why would I start building a factory in one place if I'm not sure the tariffs are actually going to be around in five months or whatever?

Speaker 68 So uncertainty weighs very heavily, not just in the immediate term, but in the long term. And we're talking years and years and years.

Speaker 68 And Joe and I like to talk about one of our favorite examples of this is U.S. housing.
So in the aftermath of 2008, a lot of house builders obviously went bankrupt.

Speaker 68 There was a lot of capacity taken out of the home building market. And you could argue that even today, you know, more than a decade later, that capacity hasn't been replaced.

Speaker 68 So, you know, memories for this kind of stuff are actually fairly long. And so, the capacity question is going to be a big one.
How long will it actually take for us to react to some of these tariffs?

Speaker 68 These are huge, expensive projects, take a lot of time, take a lot of money to build massive factories, even simplistic ones to make sneakers or whatever.

Speaker 68 The other thing I would just add on to that is

Speaker 68 all of this is happening at a time when there doesn't seem to be what economists call a fiscal offset.

Speaker 68 So the government isn't planning on spending any more money to try to boost domestic industries, or at least we certainly haven't seen it yet.

Speaker 68 You know, if you oppose tariffs and then said, well, we're going to send billions of dollars into the U.S. economy to target strategic industries, that, you know, that could help.

Speaker 68 It would at least be a sort of cohesive economic plan, but we're not seeing that.

Speaker 76 Yeah, it's not a traditional free market conservative economic plan, but yeah, that would be at least something.

Speaker 38 The thing that jumped out to me about that Dallas Fed thing that you mentioned is

Speaker 58 if there was a sector that is more Trump's base than that, I don't know what it would be, right?

Speaker 79 Like those folks, you know, are most of the people that they interview, they talk to for that, are going to be Trump supporters.

Speaker 70 And so if that group is

Speaker 47 saying that we are seeing uncertainty, we're going to hold off on investing rather than saying, oh, you know, we trust Mr.

Speaker 45 Trump.

Speaker 49 We're going forward.

Speaker 67 Like, I mean, that is particularly alarming because imagine what people in more skeptical sectors are thinking.

Speaker 68 I mean, it is the energy industry is the heart of Trump space in many ways. And the interesting thing about that Dallas Fed survey is, you know, it's not just

Speaker 68 short-term things. Like there was one guy, he was a supplier for parts in the oil industry.

Speaker 68 And he was basically saying, well, we had one supplier ask us if we could move all our production to Canada, which is ironic because you would assume that's the opposite of what Trump intended.

Speaker 68 And one can only imagine how that supplier actually feels about all of this happening to his business.

Speaker 68 But the other thing to point out is there were people in that survey who are questioning the fundamental tensions in Trump's policy. So there is, again, this is all anonymous.

Speaker 68 You just get a vague idea of what these businesses actually do. But there was one business that basically said, Trump's plan for energy independence in America doesn't work.

Speaker 68 with oil prices at like $50 a barrel. And we're seeing oil fall again today.

Speaker 68 You can't incentivize drillers to build new drills and produce more oil if the price is really low and capital costs remain pretty high. It's just not going to work.

Speaker 54 I'm sorry, Tracy, that doesn't seem right to me because we have the liquid gold that's underneath our feet.

Speaker 49 And wouldn't they just be so excited that Mr.

Speaker 72 Trump wants them to drill the liquid gold?

Speaker 78 It doesn't matter what the cost is.

Speaker 68 Someone has to pay for it to come out of the ground. It's not the government.
I'm not sure it's going to be the businesses either.

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Speaker 72 There's a news outdoor, the March job cuts jumped to the highest level since May 2020.

Speaker 45 You already mentioned the Dallas Fed analysis.

Speaker 52 Give us a broader look at kind of like just, you know, the indicators, the possible recession indicators, and what people are seeing right now.

Speaker 68 Sure. So if you look at a lot of the short-term moves today, I mean, oil would be a good one, right? Like oil is the lifeblood of the global economy still.

Speaker 68 And we're seeing that drop precipitously this morning, which means people expect less economic activity in the future.

Speaker 68 I imagine over the next few days, you're going to see some interesting things happen, like more risk premium being built into U.S. treasuries.
We call it the term premium.

Speaker 68 And it basically means investors want more compensation for added uncertainty way out in the future. So again, that idea of long-term uncertainty really being here to stay.

Speaker 68 And then the other thing I would say is there are a lot of questions swirling around what this means for the Fed for the rest of this year.

Speaker 76 Yeah, I want to get to the Fed next, but just some of the other things, the job numbers, like the number of openings are going down.

Speaker 102 I think I saw you mention this in a newsletter.

Speaker 64 Consumer spending is slowing.

Speaker 73 You had a newsletter about the credit market.

Speaker 44 Oh, yeah. So there's some issues.

Speaker 76 So, and you're a dispassionate analyst of all this, but when you kind of look at all of that together, like the recession chances, like right now, April 3rd, compared to, say, I don't know, six months ago, November 3rd of last year, and has gone up a little bit significantly.

Speaker 68 Okay, so I am a dispassionate journalist, as you said, which means I have no opinions whatsoever. I am going to quote some opinions from other people, but you have opinions.

Speaker 15 That is not true.

Speaker 57 You very much have opinions.

Speaker 84 I've seen your opinions.

Speaker 68 All right, let me hide behind others' opinions for this one moment. I've seen people ratchet up the expectation for a recession this year to like 89%, 90%.

Speaker 68 I mean, I haven't seen anyone ratchet up growth expectations. That's not happening.
And again, if you look at what was happening in November of last year, people felt pretty good about the economy.

Speaker 68 In fact, they were feeling even better, possibly because they thought Trump was going to win by then.

Speaker 68 And so you were seeing a lot of the consumer surveys come in stronger, particularly from Republicans versus Democrats. Now we're sort of getting into the reality of the administration.

Speaker 68 And I think the business friendliness of it is, you know,

Speaker 68 in question, to put it mildly.

Speaker 16 I think this is an obvious point, but it's just worth asking because, you know, sometimes my Trump derangement syndrome takes over.

Speaker 56 Nothing else caused this besides just the chaos he put into the markets over the tariffs, right?

Speaker 47 Like there's no other outside factor or, you know, kind of cyclical economic factor that is, that is bringing this to bear, right?

Speaker 68 Well, to be fair, I will say there were signs of the economy slowing, you know, for the past few months.

Speaker 68 And you pointed out a bunch of the indicators that we've been seeing. So, you know, that's kind of been happening a little bit.

Speaker 68 But what's really interesting about yesterday, and Joe actually made this point very well, you know, both of us have been in finance journalism for a long We've seen a lot of policy speeches over the years, and we've seen lots of big ones that the market has reacted to negatively.

Speaker 68 But all of those have tended to be like crisis communications. You know, you're in the depths of 2008 or the Eurozone crisis.
You're saying this is going to be your emergency plan, emergency funding.

Speaker 68 The market doesn't like it, starts tanking. Usually the market is tanking because the crisis response is not enough.
This time,

Speaker 68 it's too much, right? It's like a purely self-manufactured market crisis impact, which is extremely unusual in itself. And then the other thing I would say is...

Speaker 13 I mean, unusual is about the nicest way to put it, like totally self-inflicted market crisis.

Speaker 68 Well, the other thing I would say that's really worrying for investors, and I think it's one of the reasons we're seeing such a strong reaction, I mean, Trump and the administration, all the professionals in that administration, they must have known that stocks were going to react very, very negatively to this.

Speaker 68 I mean, they, they moved the announcement till after the market closed, which is one indication that they were, at least they had the market reaction on their mind. They did it anyway, right?

Speaker 68 Which suggests if you're a stockholder or even a businessman, I mean, businesses fund a lot of their activity through the stock market still.

Speaker 68 The administration isn't really thinking about you that much, or at least they're very comfortable with inflicting short-term losses on you.

Speaker 21 Yeah, one of my finance friends sent me a picture of the NASDAQ stock chart.

Speaker 78 And, you know, I can't verify that he's 100% right about this, but he said that this is the largest 10-minute drop in the history of the NASDAQ futures.

Speaker 9 So even if it's in the ballpark, not great.

Speaker 31 To your last point there on the Trump thing.

Speaker 47 And you've talked to folks that are pro-Trump, that are in, that are supportive of the view.

Speaker 8 And is there any rational argument for this?

Speaker 41 Like, can they make a case that they're trying to weaken the dollar because they're trying to strengthen crypto?

Speaker 70 Is there any rational argument for what they did yesterday?

Speaker 68 I think it's really, really difficult to make that case. I mean, I'll just throw out here, my dad's a Trump supporter.
So I hear a lot of the talking points.

Speaker 68 The one that he's on at the moment is the market is overreacting.

Speaker 68 You know, it's the globalist international investors fault that this is happening which you know okay blame it on someone else that's a classic reaction when something blows up in your face but at the same time like We are seeing this happen, right?

Speaker 68 America is losing its importance in the global financial system. One of the things that's been happening in the past month or so is we've seen European stocks go up by quite a lot.

Speaker 68 People are talking about the rebirth of Europe, the biggest moment in European history since the Berlin Wall fell, all because America is basically retreating from Europe, and it means Europe is going to have to come together, start spending a lot on defense, maybe start spending more on its domestic industry, funded by the government, I might add, not like the U.S., which seems to be stepping away from a lot of federal funding.

Speaker 68 And so that's going to create more economic integration, more growth, more togetherness, cohesion, whatever you want to call it. People are pricing in the idea of a,

Speaker 68 how should I put it, submerging America. We are seeing that in asset prices.

Speaker 76 You did it, Donald.

Speaker 41 We've made the German military sector great again,

Speaker 72 has its benefits and downsides.

Speaker 49 All right, back to what you mentioned earlier, the risk to fed independence, because I am totally with you and Joe on this.

Speaker 80 I think it's underappreciated right now and a potential kind of medium medium to long-term crisis risk on top of all this other stuff.

Speaker 71 Talk about that and

Speaker 52 what would happen if Trump and this administration does something to undermine the independence of the Fed.

Speaker 68 Sure. So all of this is stemming from an action they took on the FTC.
So it was kind of funny. We interviewed actually in D.C., the FTC commissioner, Andy Ferguson, the head of the FTC.

Speaker 68 It was like a Tuesday night, and he was talking about how much he loves bipartisan opinion within the commission, how much he values it. It's very important.

Speaker 68 And then the next day, news came that Trump had fired the two Democratic commissioners at the FTC. And he had used this, like, you know, kind of special power to do it.

Speaker 68 That's now working its way through the courts. In fact, Oddlots is cited in the lawsuit that those commissioners are now filing.
And the interesting thing here, the relevance for the Fed is

Speaker 68 if Trump succeeds in doing this, and if the lawyers fail at arguing against this in court, it could have implications for the central bank.

Speaker 68 It could mean that Trump can effectively fire whoever he wants at the Fed, you know, a regional Fed president, whatever.

Speaker 68 That would give unprecedented control, at least in America, to a president over the central bank.

Speaker 68 And markets and investors, as a rule, tend not to be fans of a central bank that is not very independent.

Speaker 21 Yeah, so we love catastrophizing here.

Speaker 80 So give us the catastrophic risk outcome of removing fat independents.

Speaker 68 Oh man, are you ready to be traumatized?

Speaker 75 Yeah, we are.

Speaker 39 People that tune into this podcast come for a little afternoon trauma.

Speaker 43 Okay.

Speaker 68 All right. Well, I mean, I think the analogy you could look at is Turkey, for instance.
That's a pretty good one.

Speaker 68 We've seen a sort of revolving door of central bank heads go through the Turkish central bank.

Speaker 68 They come in for like a few months or a year, and then they're out the door very, very quickly, presumably because they're not doing the things that Erdogan wants.

Speaker 68 Erdogan has been pushing for lower interest rates, even though inflation has been staggeringly high.

Speaker 68 And yeah, that's sort of the outlook, right?

Speaker 68 If you have someone in power who's pushing for low interest rates, but at the same time, you have capacity pressures as a result of hypothetical tariffs, for instance, then you're going to see prices go up.

Speaker 68 The central bank, in theory, should be raising rates, but the combination of lower economic growth and higher prices, stagflation, is a difficult one for the central bank to react to, to be fair.

Speaker 68 But in theory, they should be raising rates, but the president wants to push them down. That is a recipe for

Speaker 68 prices going up quite a lot.

Speaker 77 How's the Turkish economy doing?

Speaker 68 I actually haven't looked at it that closely recently, which again, we're talking kind of emerging market stuff right like these are emerging like we're comparing us to the types of things that are happening in emerging you know capitalist yeah quasi quasi capitalist authoritarian states i think that's also the important thing to remember here a lot of the u.s investment case i mean the u.s's primary export is financial assets we sell lots of stocks to foreigners we sell lots of our debt u.s treasuries to foreigners that's been funding a lot of our business model.

Speaker 68 If the primary export is that, you have to talk about how important the rule of law actually is in this country, the stability.

Speaker 68 Investors investing in the U.S., they're not expecting, I don't know, like a coup or the president to be controlling interest rates. They're expecting a very,

Speaker 68 I guess, normal, normal line of proceedings, right? And instead, we're seeing all this uncertainty injected into the market and sort of the U.S. normality premium, I guess, being eroded.

Speaker 75 All right.

Speaker 103 I want to do just a full catastrophizing episode on what would happen if that doesn't just get eroded, but goes away here in this country.

Speaker 38 We can do it another time.

Speaker 103 I appreciate you coming on on a very busy day.

Speaker 49 Tracy Alloway, everybody, check out the Odd Lots podcast and newsletter.

Speaker 68 Thanks so much. It was fun.
Slash terrifying.

Speaker 13 Slash terrifying.

Speaker 103 Yes, terrifying is more on brand. Up next, Mallory McMorra.

Speaker 2 We the people, in order to form a more perfect union.

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Speaker 32 All right. We are back.

Speaker 58 She is a Democratic Michigan state senator and majority whip.

Speaker 44 She's the author of the new book, Hate Won't Win, Find Your Power and Leave This Place Better Than We Found It.

Speaker 39 Yesterday, she launched her campaign for the U.S.

Speaker 54 Senate.

Speaker 67 Welcome back to the podcast, Mallory McMorrow.

Speaker 82 Thanks, Tim. Good to be here.

Speaker 59 Are we sure hate won't win?

Speaker 82 Hate is having a moment. Let's discuss.

Speaker 8 Hate is having a moment. But that's having a moment.

Speaker 82 But it's on us. It's on us to decide if hate is going to win and we're not going to let it.

Speaker 54 Okay. All right.

Speaker 81 I like that mindset.

Speaker 38 I'm not 100% sure I'm bought in, but you know, the power of positive thinking.

Speaker 66 I want to play for everybody a little bit of your announcement yesterday, and then we'll talk about it.

Speaker 82 There are moments that will break you. This is not that moment.
This moment will challenge us, test us. And if it all feels like too much, that's their plan.

Speaker 82 They want to make you feel powerless, but you are not powerless. So you know what won't fix it? The same old crap out of Washington.
The Democrats came ready to fight back with their little paddles.

Speaker 82 Do you know who will? We will. We need new leaders because the same people in D.C.
who got us into this mess are not going to be the ones to get us out of it.

Speaker 82 I'm Mallory McMurrow, and yes, I'm running for U.S. Senate.

Speaker 54 All right. Are you feeling it? Are you ready to run through a wall?

Speaker 82 Ready to run through every wall.

Speaker 8 Let's go.

Speaker 49 I want to get into that second part of the ad, talking about what won't fix it.

Speaker 40 But first, I mean, you've been on a couple times, but for folks who aren't familiar with you, maybe give us a little TLDR on, you know, your childhood, your life, how you got here, why you're running for Senator.

Speaker 82 I was born in a small town where I pigset for my neighbors. We're not going to go that far back.

Speaker 82 I ran for office for the first time after the 2016 election. I googled how to run for office, took on a Republican incumbent in a Republican district, and and won.

Speaker 82 We flipped a district 20 points, and I came in representing Mitt Romney's hometown, largely on the idea that residents looked at me and said, You remind me a lot of my daughter who left and went to Chicago or Denver or New York.

Speaker 82 Why did you come back? So I am now in my second term in the state Senate. I am the Senate Majority Whip, the first Democratic Senate Majority Whip since 1984.
And yeah, I announced for U.S.

Speaker 82 Senate yesterday, and the response has been incredible. But I think fundamentally this is a time for new leadership to lead us out of the wilderness and lead us out of this moment.

Speaker 82 And that's a huge part of why I'm running.

Speaker 85 How do you think you did with like Romney family members in that state Senate district slash other kind of Cranbrook graduates?

Speaker 82 Well, I don't think the Romney members answered their door, surprisingly.

Speaker 8 But I did well.

Speaker 82 You know, Cranbrook's a private school. We know that.
But

Speaker 8 Pop and Doc went there, actually.

Speaker 10 A couple

Speaker 8 famous graduates. Yeah.

Speaker 82 I did well in

Speaker 82 one of my first digital ads. I'm an industrial designer.

Speaker 82 And speaking of Cranbrook, one thing I love about Cranbrook is that is where Ray and Charles Eames met and fell in love and changed the face of industrial design and furniture design.

Speaker 82 They actually invented the skateboard. So the process of

Speaker 65 the Eames Chair people?

Speaker 8 The Eames chair people. Yeah.

Speaker 82 So that frame from the chair is why we have skateboards.

Speaker 8 Fun fact.

Speaker 82 Yes. Really? That manufacturing process.
They invented it.

Speaker 75 No shit.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 54 Learn something new every day on the Bullwork podcast.

Speaker 43 All right.

Speaker 50 So, okay.

Speaker 72 It's a little different to run for Senate, though, than for state Senate, the door-knocking thing.

Speaker 40 You can't door knock every door in Michigan.

Speaker 32 And so I'm curious what, you know, I was listening to the ad and it's like, okay, Democrats need to do things differently.

Speaker 40 How? What?

Speaker 6 You know, that's, it could be anything, right?

Speaker 75 Like, what do you have in mind?

Speaker 82 So first of all, we have to lay out a positive vision. Something that I heard loud and clear in 2024 was

Speaker 82 people don't know what Democrats stand for. What they heard over and over was that Donald Trump is a dictator and a fascist, and this is the end of democracy.

Speaker 8 And those were some good points. They're good points.

Speaker 82 But people are also like, I know that.

Speaker 82 What do you stand for? So there was a willingness to kind of say like, yeah, I know who that guy is, but that guy's also successful. And Elon Musk is successful and I want to be successful.

Speaker 82 And for all of the horrors that is Donald Trump, he promised to lower costs. So people were willing to give him a chance.

Speaker 82 So we are going to go out with a vision for a new American dream, leaning into the fact that for way too many people, the status quo has not been working. And that means three things to me.

Speaker 82 That means that people deserve success, that we are not going to demonize success, that we are going to lean into what people aspire to.

Speaker 82 That means safety, your fundamental rights, safety from gun violence, safe communities, safe schools, and sanity. Because what we're seeing right now is absolute bullshit.

Speaker 82 And people are exhausted and just want government to work and not be a reality TV show.

Speaker 47 I like that you had the three points ready because I think that Kama did as good as she could have done.

Speaker 83 Maybe not as good as she could have done, but I think she did pretty well in a tough circumstance.

Speaker 41 But my biggest complaint was when I had Carville in the pod a couple weeks before the election, I said, you were famous for, you know, it's the economy stupid and to change versus more of the same and don't forget healthcare.

Speaker 75 Like, people knew what Bill Clinton was running on.

Speaker 63 It's like, what is Kamala's whiteboard?

Speaker 77 And he couldn't come up with it.

Speaker 83 And I couldn't come up with it because there just kind of wasn't one.

Speaker 53 Right.

Speaker 72 And I do think that like that, that you're right on something there as far as like the positive side of it is concerned, that the Democrats have kind of run on this sort of amorphous from Hillary all the way through Comwell Hillary and Biden and Harris, right?

Speaker 49 That all of them kind of ran on sort of amorphous arc of history kind of, you know, we care about people's stuff, but not like anything tangible that like people who are casual observers of politics could really wrap their head around.

Speaker 76 So like, you know, how are you going to kind of try to buck that?

Speaker 82 I think that's right. I was at a meeting with Alyssa Slackin, now Senator Slackin, and she said that a guy guy came up to her at a farmer's market once and asked, what's your guy's hat?

Speaker 82 And she was like, what do you mean? Make America Great Again. It fits on a hat.
What's your guy's hat?

Speaker 82 And that's been something that I think about a lot. I came from product design and branding and media.
And the idea of a story and a vision is really important.

Speaker 82 And in a place like Michigan, the idea of Make America Great Again was really compelling because, you know, as late as the 1980s, five of the top 10 metro regions in the entire country for median household income were in Michigan.

Speaker 82 So we were one of the wealthiest, most prosperous states in the entire country.

Speaker 82 So that vision is very appealing to people who remember what it was like to be able to afford the house that you dreamed of, not just a house and have two cars and go on vacation and maybe have a place up north.

Speaker 82 Like that was a pretty normal standard of living.

Speaker 82 And for what I've seen in the Democratic Party, particularly leadership on the federal level, is just really living in the weeds of policy and kind of micro-targeting people to death.

Speaker 82 So what we saw in 2024 was, oh, if you're a woman, you must care about abortion. If you're a Latino, you must care about immigration.

Speaker 82 And there was like this hodgepodge of policies and the idea that maybe we can stitch this coalition together by giving every micro-targeted group of people one policy, which completely misses, well, what's the bigger vision?

Speaker 82 And I think the bigger vision is everybody wants to succeed. Everybody wants to believe in the American dream.
And for somebody like me, you know, I'm a millennial.

Speaker 82 I graduated right into the recession in 2008, wanting to be a car designer, possibly the worst time in American history to want to go into that industry.

Speaker 32 Well, maybe right now.

Speaker 10 We'll see what's happening.

Speaker 8 Yeah, maybe right now.

Speaker 82 Yeah, we can talk about that in a minute.

Speaker 82 Oh, my goodness. But, you know,

Speaker 82 I had tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt. I didn't have any health care because the Affordable Care Act didn't exist yet.
I had had a great internship, but then the industry crashed.

Speaker 82 So I applied to hundreds of jobs. I slept in the back of my car for a few nights and

Speaker 82 tried to figure it out. And there are so many people that I talk to who just.

Speaker 82 The idea of getting ahead is impossible. I can't afford to buy a house.
I can't afford to start a family. Childcare is astronomically expensive.

Speaker 82 And that isn't even getting to people don't believe Social Security is going to exist for a lot of Jed X and millennials and Gen Z that we're paying into it and we're not going to get it back.

Speaker 82 So for me, I'm going to have a campaign that acknowledges

Speaker 82 the status quo and how things were going was not working.

Speaker 82 And when people hear Democrats saying things like, we are defending democracy, I think for the average person, it sounds like you're defending the status quo and that doesn't work.

Speaker 82 But the answer is not to burn it down. Like we see Donald Trump and Elon Musk, although I guess Elon just got fired and is being sent back to Tesla.

Speaker 8 We'll see. We'll see.
We'll see.

Speaker 82 That's not the answer either. And there's a lot of energy at our town halls and coffee hours with people coming out and saying, wait a second, this is not what I voted for.

Speaker 82 So there's an opportunity right now to step into that void, but you have to provide a positive vision that people want to be a part of.

Speaker 54 All right. I want to throw two hats at you.

Speaker 75 Then we'll talk about Donald Trump.

Speaker 75 The two hats that are kind of out there right now in the Democratic world.

Speaker 84 You've got Ezra Klein over at the New York Times going around with a hat that says abundance on it, talking about

Speaker 104 bringing more abundance to the American society.

Speaker 54 You've got AOC out there on the road with a fight oligarchy hat.

Speaker 37 Do either of those appeal to you?

Speaker 70 Where do you think

Speaker 71 what might you think might be more fruitful for the party?

Speaker 77 Is there something that you could take from one or the other?

Speaker 86 What do you think?

Speaker 82 I think there's some truth in both of those, but if I'm very honest, I think both of those fall into a trap that Democrats fall into. They sound very

Speaker 82 lofty and elitist.

Speaker 82 Like,

Speaker 82 to the average person who is not listening to the Ezra Klein show, what is abundance? I don't think that actually says anything.

Speaker 82 But if you explain it to people that if we are going to spend billions of dollars on things like high-speed rail, we should actually have high-speed rail.

Speaker 82 It's not enough just to introduce policies and budgets if you don't do the thing. That's real.
You know, if you're going to to fund housing, you should build housing.

Speaker 82 And by the way, that's something we've done in Michigan. We passed $50 million annually since we took majority in the state Senate for a housing fund and we've built 10,000 new housing units.

Speaker 82 So we're actually doing the thing that we said we would do. And fighting oligarchy, again, like sounds very academic.
And

Speaker 54 eat the rich, maybe?

Speaker 8 Oh, I don't love that either.

Speaker 82 Well, because again,

Speaker 82 what's frustrating to me is when I hear, you know, kind of Democrats are thinking about what went wrong in 2024. And there's all the analysis is that Democrats lost the working class.

Speaker 82 So as a result, you see phrases like eat the rich and also Democrats saying, we are fighting for the working class.

Speaker 82 We tend to talk about people instead of to them. And I don't know that people like that very much.

Speaker 82 So, you know, when I talk to people, Everybody I grew up with wants to believe that if you work hard enough, you're never going to have to work again, that you're going to make enough money and you can take time off and you can go on vacation.

Speaker 82 And we have to stop demonizing success.

Speaker 82 And that's what I want to do in my campaign that, you know, you deserve a foundation where if you work hard enough and you do all the right things, that maybe you won't have to work and you'll be able to retire when you want to.

Speaker 82 And you won't have to, for people in kind of my generation, have a job and a side hustle and a gig and just be working constantly as if that's what we aspire to because it's not.

Speaker 82 It's burning everybody up.

Speaker 83 So what is a way then, because I agree with that, you're speaking to my former Republican self there. We can, you know, people want to aspire to success, and we shouldn't attack people for that.

Speaker 42 On the other hand, obviously there's, you know, I mean, we have like a gazillionaire class that has a percentage of our GDP that we haven't seen since, you know, the Gilded Age.

Speaker 67 And we have a lot of really rich guys that have way too much influence on our government and our policies.

Speaker 42 It's like, how can you talk about that and talk about empowering working class people in a way that you don't think sounds academic?

Speaker 82 So I think Wisconsin showed us exactly how, first of all, and there was a really good visualization. I'm a visual person.
And there's a woman who runs an Instagram account called Motherhood for Good.

Speaker 82 And

Speaker 82 she showed, okay, if you take like George Soros and it was like one little blue block of how much was invested in that race.

Speaker 82 And then you take Elon Musk and she started stacking up red blocks, her kids' blocks. And it was just like a tower of blocks so that you could actually visualize and understand what $25 million

Speaker 82 into a state Supreme Court race looks like. And then her toddler comes over and like falls over into it.
It's very cute and I think very effective. We have to start talking about it in real terms.

Speaker 82 And what I

Speaker 82 do when I'm talking to people, either on social media or my town halls, is not use phrases like, oh, Republicans are giving a tax break to billionaires.

Speaker 8 That's true.

Speaker 82 But it sounds like money is just falling out of the sky. And that's not true.
What is true is Donald Trump lied to you and said he was going to lower your costs.

Speaker 82 And instead, the Republicans are falling in line to slash Medicare and Medicaid and the Department of Education and steal your tax dollars to give it to Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos.

Speaker 82 And I think really honing in on the fact that this is not a wide swath of people. I think still in the back of people's minds, you want to believe, yeah, maybe one day I will be a billionaire.

Speaker 82 But if you talk about the fact it's stealing your money to give to like six guys,

Speaker 82 people really get that and it pisses them off.

Speaker 54 And giving it to six guys who are now like controlling who's hired and fired.

Speaker 83 And it is crazy, like to me, like that is a tangible thing.

Speaker 52 It is crazy to me that one of the richest men in the world who gets huge subsidies from your tax dollars is like firing people that are nurses at the VA.

Speaker 8 Oh, that's right.

Speaker 82 Yeah. I mean, Elon Musk would not be successful without government subsidies.
I mean, Tesla would not exist.

Speaker 82 SpaceX would not exist without government contracts and the amount of money that he makes from the government.

Speaker 82 I had a town hall recently, and I would traditionally get like five to ten people who come to a state legislator's town hall. It's not exactly the hottest ticket in town.
We had more than 100 people.

Speaker 82 It was in a library, and there was overflow into the hallway.

Speaker 82 And of that group, three three people were fired federal workers, one from the VA, one from the NIH, and one woman who, you know, she stood up and said, I make 75% of our household income, and I cover my kids' health care costs.

Speaker 82 And I have a son with special needs, and he is not going to have health care. But she was so scared to even tell us what.
department she worked for because the fear of retribution.

Speaker 82 There's no rhyme or reason.

Speaker 82 And to have this guy and these 20-something software engineers that he pulled over from X just go in and slash and burn or send an email, like, tell me five things you did this week.

Speaker 82 And, you know, a woman from the NIH is like, well, I tried to cure cancer.

Speaker 82 And that's what I did the week before that. And that's what I did the week before that.
And guess what? We haven't cured it yet, but we have to keep trying. Like, it's just, it's infuriating.

Speaker 82 And I've gotten emails from people who, you know, went straight into

Speaker 82 the VA or another federal department, straight out of school, who've been there for 30 years. This is their life's work, who've said, I've never applied for a job.
I don't have a resume. What do I do?

Speaker 82 This is what I do. And I do it because I care about the work and what I do for my community.
And it's just heartbreaking and infuriating.

Speaker 42 What are the impacts you're seeing on the ground in Michigan here from these first couple of months?

Speaker 71 I don't want to get to terrorists next, but what about on the government worker side?

Speaker 103 And is that trickling down to what you're saying in Michigan?

Speaker 82 Oh yeah, absolutely it is. I sit on the Appropriations Committee in the Michigan Senate and

Speaker 82 we had our first budget presentation the governor presents to the legislature and that kind of kicks off the budget cycle. And

Speaker 82 42% of our state's budget is federal dollars. So if there's a federal funding freeze, if there's a slash in departments, I mean that directly impacts our state.

Speaker 82 And unlike the federal government, we can't run a deficit. We have to constitutionally pass a balanced budget every year.

Speaker 82 So I'm sitting in this hearing and one of my Republican colleagues on the state level raises his hand and he, you know, very blustery says, is this finally going to be the year that we cut off our addiction to federal funding?

Speaker 82 And I say, further record, I'm like, they're our tax dollars. Michigan is already a donor state, meaning we receive back a disproportionately lower amount of tax dollars than we send out.

Speaker 82 It's usually going to southern states.

Speaker 82 So the idea that like, A, there's not an understanding of how taxation works and policy works, and that we wouldn't fight tooth and nail to bring every single dollar back in is infuriating.

Speaker 82 And we are really struggling right now as we think about the state budget to understand

Speaker 82 what are the impacts going to be. Are we going to be able to fund Medicare, Medicaid, school aid fund?

Speaker 82 If the Department of Education closes, that's about $2 billion that we lose, and that's school meals, that's IEPs, that's special education.

Speaker 82 Like all of those programs go away and we don't have the ability to backfill it.

Speaker 3 We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, these words are more than just the opening of the Constitution.

Speaker 6 They're a reminder of who this country belongs to.

Speaker 7 and what we can be at our best.

Speaker 9 They're also the cornerstone of MS Now.

Speaker 15 Whether it's breaking news, exclusive reporting, election coverage, or in-depth analysis, MS Now keeps the people at the heart of everything they do.

Speaker 19 Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Saki, and more voices you know and trust, MS Now is your source for news, opinion, and the world.

Speaker 25 Their name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the truth you've relied on for decades.

Speaker 31 They'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions, and explain how it impacts you.

Speaker 34 Same mission, new name, MS Now.

Speaker 35 Learn more at MS.now.

Speaker 87 What does Zinn really give you?

Speaker 88 Not just hands-free nicotine satisfaction, but also real freedom.

Speaker 92 Freedom to do more of what you love, when and where you want to do it.

Speaker 93 When is the right time for Zinn?

Speaker 95 It's any time you need to be ready for every chance that's coming your way.

Speaker 90 Smoke-free, hassle-free, on your terms.

Speaker 94 Why bring Zinn along for the ride?

Speaker 97 Because America's number one nicotine pouch opens up something just as exciting as the road ahead.

Speaker 99 It opens up the endless possibilities of now.

Speaker 89 From the way you spend your day to the people you choose to spend it with.

Speaker 90 From the to-do list right in front of you to the distant goal only you can see.

Speaker 100 With Zen, you don't just find freedom.

Speaker 95 You keep finding it again and again.

Speaker 100 Find your Zen.

Speaker 93 Learn more at Zinn.com.

Speaker 88 Warning, this product contains nicotine.

Speaker 98 Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

Speaker 54 All right, let's talk about the tariffs.

Speaker 75 And more uplifting news coming from our new oligarchs, our leaders in Washington.

Speaker 48 This is a news item from your state. Stellantis is temporarily laying 900 U.S.

Speaker 67 workers in Indiana and Michigan off after it opted to idle production at two plants in Canada and Mexico in response to the Trump tariffs.

Speaker 83 And that's just one example.

Speaker 67 What else are you seeing about the economic stewardship from these guys?

Speaker 82 I mean,

Speaker 82 let's just think about that for a second. I said yesterday in an interview that Michigan stands to be hit harder than just about any other state in the country based on Trump's chaotic tariff policy.

Speaker 82 And it hasn't even been 24 hours. He announced this.
He brought out big charts and then complained about the wind and he didn't want the charts to be blown away.

Speaker 82 And almost immediately, 900 people in Michigan have lost their jobs. Like, just think about that.
This is not temporary pain or whatever Trump is trying to claim that it is, where

Speaker 82 we're going to be liberated from the rest of the world.

Speaker 82 This is 900 people who don't know if they're going to be able to pay their mortgage and don't know if they're going to be able to cover health care costs today, one day later.

Speaker 82 If that doesn't tell you that this is terrible policy, it's immediate and it's painful and it's devastating to our state.

Speaker 75 I assume you understand better than me, maybe the interstate commerce relationship with Canada in Michigan might be one of the reasons why you're in Michigan will be hardest hit.

Speaker 71 When we did the live event together a couple months ago, we're trying to block that out since it was before the election.

Speaker 17 So I don't want to bring back bad memories, but I kind of, I hadn't actually spent a lot of time in Detroit.

Speaker 75 I loved it.

Speaker 71 I really loved our little weekend in Detroit that I had with my family. But we

Speaker 83 I didn't quite realize that you just like take the bridge over to Windsor there.

Speaker 8 Like you're just driving.

Speaker 82 Did you see it? Did you like it?

Speaker 70 Yeah, I saw it.

Speaker 54 And when we were there, there was like a run, like a marathon maybe or half marathon, and people ran into Canada and back into Michigan.

Speaker 82 I've run that race a few times. You run over the bridge to Canada and come back through the tunnel.
It's the only international half-marathon and marathon, I think, in the world.

Speaker 8 Right.

Speaker 65 And so in a place like that, where it's that easy to go back and forth across the border, like something like this has a lot of real effects, even greater than it would, you know.

Speaker 42 in like Louisiana.

Speaker 82 Yeah, I mean, you know, there's, there's automotive manufacturing and a car can travel back and forth across the border in the process of being assembled more than a dozen times before it's a final assembled vehicle.

Speaker 82 But then there's also just how we interact between Michigan and Canada. I mean, this is just like driving to the next town over.

Speaker 82 People cross the border every single day to work in Detroit or Canada in our hospitals or in one of the automakers. We've seen

Speaker 82 visits from Canada drop already 10%.

Speaker 82 I know the folks leading on Mackinac Island are really worried about this summer season for we have a lot of Canadian tourists who come and visit Mackinac Island and

Speaker 82 spend the summer on the grand porch and ride around on horses and eat fudge and it's delightful.

Speaker 82 But if people don't come, that devastates our economy on top of the fact that seasonal workers for Mackinac Island are almost entirely immigrants. So you're not going to have visitors.

Speaker 82 You're not going to have people to work for the summer. What do we do?

Speaker 48 Who wants to come here on an immigrant work visa, by the way?

Speaker 49 I just, because I have people asking me all the time, because I've been talking a lot about these Venezuelan deportations.

Speaker 49 People are like, are you worried?

Speaker 70 And I said, you know, U.S.

Speaker 39 citizens are still on pretty good turf.

Speaker 9 We'll see how dark things get.

Speaker 85 But if you're somebody who's coming in on a work visa from another country, watching what this administration is doing to people, wrongly sending them to a San Salvador concentration camp, I don't want to work on a work visa here if I'm in a foreign country.

Speaker 82 Like, what happens if they look at my phone or they decide that i overstayed it for a week or something and next thing you know i'm shackled in the natchez prison in louisiana like that's a legit concern i think that those seasonal workers would have i don't think you can overstate the chilling effect that it has not only on on immigrant workers but on when we saw the the federal funding freeze for head start we held an oversight committee hearing in the state senate where i'm the vice chair of the oversight committee and we brought in head start program directors who said beyond even the uncertainty of whether or not we're going to receive the funding we cannot hire now nobody's applying nobody's coming in and that is the hardest challenge of running any child care and early childhood education facility is hiring qualified workers and people just do not want to apply for a job where they don't know that they're going to get paid what do you make of the about this um the immigration part of this and this question i do feel like some democrats have been reluctant to want to engage on what we've seen with the venezuelan asylees, with the student at Tufts, you know, because immigration has been a tough issue for Democrats.

Speaker 39 It does kind of fall into your number two, your safety, number two of your three S's.

Speaker 63 Like, do you think that Democrats should be scared to talk about what this administration is doing with regards to these deportations?

Speaker 71 And in some cases, not even really deportations, kidnappings, really.

Speaker 82 No, we shouldn't be afraid, really, to talk about any issue because then

Speaker 82 they get to own the conversation. I want to make sure that as we go out and we start this campaign, we are emphasizing that communities should be safe.

Speaker 82 I have served in a legislature where we've increased local revenue sharing to our cities year over year for police. I represent the city of Detroit.

Speaker 82 That's a huge priority: making sure that our communities are safe, that criminals are held accountable. But we've had what we've seen here in Michigan, a couple of examples.

Speaker 82 There is a dad in Downriver, so just kind of south of Detroit, who

Speaker 82 is a permanent resident here, here, has started a painting business, who was picked up by ICE at gunpoint after dropping his son off, his autistic son at school. And they haven't seen him again.

Speaker 82 You know, they don't know where he is. They haven't had a hearing.

Speaker 40 They don't know where he is right now.

Speaker 82 Right. And to everybody in this community, they're like, this is, this is our dad.
This is our neighbor. This is a man who has never committed a single crime in the United States.
And he's gone.

Speaker 82 There was also a woman last week. There was a story in the Detroit Free Press who she wanted to go to Costco.
She lives in Detroit. She typed in Costco.

Speaker 82 The GPS accidentally took her, you want to talk about Canada, to the one in Windsor instead of the one that's up by me in the suburbs. So she got in the car.

Speaker 54 It shouldn't be a problem in a normal world.

Speaker 8 You can just accidentally go to the Windsor Costco.

Speaker 82 You're taking your kids to Costco. You're following the GPS and they were held in a detention center for days.
This woman with her children, one one of her kids developed a fever. They had no access.

Speaker 82 It was like rum and noodles. They could not have access to a lawyer.
And now she's on the deportation list. It's this chaotic approach to people who have done nothing wrong.

Speaker 82 And, you know, you talk about the students being picked up. Like, in what world

Speaker 82 should writing an op-ed

Speaker 82 get you deported or sent to a detention center in a state.

Speaker 39 Six guys with masks come up on you in the street like you're some fucking like dangerous criminal.

Speaker 8 That is terrifying. And if

Speaker 82 we cannot articulate, you know, I'm going to be very clear in articulating this is not keeping us safe. This is not ensuring that we are going after criminals.

Speaker 82 This is an approach that they get to show, you know, it's really disgusting what they're doing. It's a performance that is hurting people.

Speaker 82 And by the way, is not actually forwarding any policy about comprehensive immigration reform. There's nothing on the table to fix this system.

Speaker 45 I appreciate you going there on that. And those stories are horrible.

Speaker 80 And again, I think you're right.

Speaker 85 People can talk about this and talk about wanting safe communities without

Speaker 85 excusing or being silent about this because people really need to speak up.

Speaker 45 This is just the behavior of a Stalinist country, not America.

Speaker 2 We the people, in order to form a more perfect union.

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Speaker 7 They're a reminder of who this country belongs to and what we can be at our best.

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Speaker 20 Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Saki, and more voices you know and trust, MS Now is your source for news, opinion, and the world.

Speaker 26 Their name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the truth you've relied on for decades.

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Speaker 35 Learn more at MS.now.

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Speaker 32 Mallory, you know we got to do this.

Speaker 18 If you're going to be a new candidate, I got to take you into rapid-fire questions.

Speaker 74 All right. People got to know a little bit more about Mallory.

Speaker 18 We mentioned already, we alluded to for the elder millennials listening, 8 Mile.

Speaker 47 What is your favorite MM track?

Speaker 82 Oh, it's Lose Yourself. It's on my running soundtrack.

Speaker 8 It's classic all time.

Speaker 54 Okay. Running, lifting.

Speaker 39 What is your exercise?

Speaker 78 What's your routine?

Speaker 82 Running and yoga.

Speaker 41 Running and yoga.

Speaker 39 So what is your have you seen the morning routine?

Speaker 102 The guy that gets up at 3:30 and puts his face in ice-cold water and then dives into a pool.

Speaker 48 Do you have one of those for your campaign?

Speaker 82 I

Speaker 82 get up at a normal hour and make a cup of cold brew coffee and sit down. It's, you know, really at the same level.
Okay.

Speaker 54 You might want to think about the ice ball.

Speaker 8 That might just be something to do.

Speaker 102 Now that you're into the campaign, it might be something to think about.

Speaker 38 All right.

Speaker 9 Michigan, Mount Rushmore.

Speaker 82 Oh, Michigan, Mount Rushmore.

Speaker 82 the mackinac bridge mighty mac oh that was a very literal way that was a literal way to answer that question i was like mackinac bridge is a good answer i want to know who is on it which michiganders you would put on the michigan mount rushmore oh on the michigan mount rushmore

Speaker 82 i think gretchen whitmer and then i'm going to go a completely different direction george romney oh that's nice eminem

Speaker 17 okay

Speaker 82 And Aretha Franklin.

Speaker 34 Ooh, Aretha.

Speaker 39 Joe Lewis. I was going to say, you can't do Henry Ford, unfortunately.
Turned out to be an anti-Semite.

Speaker 74 Redhead Mount Rushmore.

Speaker 45 I'm looking at the very different Mount Rushmores that you could possibly be on one day.

Speaker 54 What if we made a red-headed Mount Rushmore?

Speaker 8 What kind of rock is that?

Speaker 102 I guess it would have to be in the Mountain West to be kind of like a slave.

Speaker 8 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 82 Redhead Mount Rushmore.

Speaker 8 Was Shirley Temple at Redhead? Shirley Temple, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 8 I don't know.

Speaker 66 I assumed you redheads had like other redheads that you aspired to be like.

Speaker 82 No, can I tell you i i went on a blind date with a redhead once and we sat down and we were having a lovely time and the waitress comes over and says it's so nice to see a brother and sister spending time together and you're like this has been fun we'll see you and i was like this is gonna split the chat i'm never

Speaker 82 i'm never gonna talk to you again thanks

Speaker 54 if you could go this they're all mount rushmore themed uh rapid fire if you could go back in time and make a deal with donald trump that we put his face on mount rushmore but he doesn't get to run again for president would Would you have cut the deal?

Speaker 82 Oh my God, of course. Are you kidding? Like, let's just go back in time and give him like an e-got.

Speaker 82 He should have an Emmy and a Grammy and an Oscar and just like give him all the awards so he doesn't run.

Speaker 35 You have a daughter?

Speaker 40 She's what, four now? Three?

Speaker 82 She's four, yeah.

Speaker 39 What's the cutest thing that she's done in the last month?

Speaker 82 I signed her up for, speaking of running, there's a Corktown in Detroit. There's a St.
Patrick's Day 5K. They have a kids quarter mile that I signed her up for, and she was so excited.

Speaker 82 So we run right in front of the new Michigan Central, the train station that's been reopened. And

Speaker 82 she wore a little tutu and she got a medal and she wore that medal for like four straight days. And she told everybody in the grocery store, she yelled at them, she gave them high fives.

Speaker 82 She said, I'm a corktown runner. I'm the fastest kid alive.
Even though she saw every kid running past her, she didn't care. And it was the cutest thing she's done.

Speaker 18 I love that. I love that confidence.

Speaker 39 Okay, my two hardest rapid-fire questions to leave with.

Speaker 32 You want to be in the Senate?

Speaker 39 Should Chuck Schumer be the Democratic leader in the Senate anymore?

Speaker 82 We need new leadership in the Senate.

Speaker 8 Full stop.

Speaker 54 All right.

Speaker 45 Last one is really going to be the hardest one.

Speaker 54 It's less of a rapid fire than a gotcha.

Speaker 45 I follow Your Ask Me Anythings on Instagram.

Speaker 54 They're very good.

Speaker 42 Other politicians can learn from that.

Speaker 7 But one thing I learned from following Your Ask Me Anythings is a little bit about your Michigan, you don't really have a full Michigan accent.

Speaker 10 And the best way to prove it is

Speaker 70 by asking you this question: What is your favorite video game?

Speaker 82 Super Mario Kart.

Speaker 8 Super what?

Speaker 82 Mario. Mario.
It's a me. Mario.

Speaker 8 Mario.

Speaker 47 That sounds a little bit more like Outer Borough than Upper Peninsula to me.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 82 I grew up in central New Jersey, which I swear is a real place, but that is full Mario country.

Speaker 8 All right.

Speaker 81 I bet the Michiganers are happy that you immigrated there.

Speaker 75 Are you happy about your new?

Speaker 82 That was the best decision I have ever made. Best decision.
I ran for office because this has made me the best version of myself, this place.

Speaker 38 All right. I appreciate you very much.
Mallory McMorrow. Good Good luck in the campaign.

Speaker 102 We'll be checking in with you over the next whatever it is, 20 months or so, assuming we survive.

Speaker 82 Thanks, Tim. And I hope people come check us out, McMorrow for Michigan.com.

Speaker 44 All right, everybody else, we'll see you back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bullwork Podcast.

Speaker 29 Peace.

Speaker 106 His palms are sweaty, knees weak, arms are heavy. There's vomit on his sweater already.
Mom's spaghetti. He's nervous.
Been on the surface. He looks calm and ready to drop palms.

Speaker 106 But he keeps on forgetting what he wrote down. The whole crowd goes so loud.
he opens his mouth. But the words won't come out.
He's choking how. Everybody's choking now.
The clocks run out. Time's up.

Speaker 106 Over. Loud.
Snap back to reality. Oh, there goes gravity.
Oh, there goes rabbit. He choke.
He's so mad, but he won't give up. Daddies, he knows.
He won't have it. He knows.

Speaker 106 His whole backs of these ropes. It don't matter.
He's coke. He knows that, but he's pro.
He's so staggered. He knows.
When he goes back to this mobile home, that's when it's back to the lab again, yo.

Speaker 106 This old rhapsody better go capture this moment and hope but don't care.

Speaker 106 Lose yourself in the music. The moment you hold it, you better never let it go.

Speaker 106 You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow. Cause opportunity comes once in a lifetime, careta.
Lose yourself in the music. The moment you hold it, you better never let it go.

Speaker 106 You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow. Cause opportunity comes once in a lifetime.

Speaker 106 Souls escaping through this hole that is taping. This world is mine for the taking.
Make me king as we move toward a new world order. A normal life is boring.
But superstars close to post-mortem.

Speaker 106 It only grows harder. Home, he grows hotter.
He blows. It's all over.
These hoes is all on him. Coast to coast shows.
He's known as the Globetrotter. Lonely Rhodes.
God only knows. He's grown farther.

Speaker 106 From home, he's no father. He goes home and barely knows his own daughter.
The holder knows, cause here goes the cold water. These hoes don't want him no more.
He's cold product.

Speaker 106 They moved on to the next movie who flows. He nosedove and sold not a soul.
The soul barbarous toll and unfolds. I suppose it's old partner, but the beat goes on.
That it up, that um

Speaker 106 loses down the music. The moment you own it, you better never let it go.

Speaker 106 You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow. This opportunity comes once in a lifetime.
Come at her. Lose its counterfeiting to music.
The moment you own it, you better never let it go.

Speaker 106 You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow. This opportunity comes once in a lifetime.
Cooper.

Speaker 106 Do you do anything you set your mind to, man?

Speaker 55 The Bullworth Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 51 Gas, groceries, eating out?

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Speaker 108 Even though severe cases can be rare, respiratory syncytial virus, or RSV is still the leading cause of hospitalization in babies under one.

Speaker 108 RSV often begins like a cold or the flu, but can quickly spread to your baby's lungs. Ask your doctor about preventative antibodies for your baby this season and visit protectagainstrsv.com.

Speaker 108 The information presented is for general educational purposes only. Please ask your healthcare provider about any questions regarding your health or your baby's health.

Speaker 107 Even when you're playing music,

Speaker 107 you're always listening to your baby, especially when RSV is on your mind.

Speaker 107 Baphortis, Nursevimab ALIP, is the first and only long-acting preventative antibody that gives babies the RSV antibodies they lack.

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Speaker 107 Your baby shouldn't receive Baphortis if they have a history of serious allergic reactions to Baphortis, Nircevimab ALIP, or any of its ingredients.

Speaker 107 Tell your baby's doctor about any medicines they're taking and all their medical conditions, including bleeding or bruising problems. Serious allergic reactions have happened.

Speaker 107 Get medical help right away if your child has any of the following signs or symptoms of a serious allergic reaction, such as swelling of the face, mouth, or tongue, difficulty swallowing or breathing, unresponsiveness, bluish color of skin, lips, or underfingernails, muscle weakness, severe rash, hives, or itching.

Speaker 107 Most common side effects include rash and pain, swelling, or hardness at their injection site. Individual results may vary.
Ask your baby's doctor about Bayfortis.

Speaker 107 Visit Bayfortis.com or call 1-855-BEFORTIS.