Lis Smith: Dems Need to Burn Down the Party Establishment

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Speaker 1 Hey, y'all, I just had the unbelievable privilege of talking to Andre Hernandez-Romero, the makeup artist and hairdresser that was let out finally from the El Salvador prison hell after we kidnapped him and sent him there for no reason.

Speaker 1 And we talked. He was at his home in Venezuela.
It was really moving. And I had the opportunity to write about it this morning in morning shots.

Speaker 1 If you don't get the Bullwork morning newsletter, you should be getting that because Bill Crystal's doing gems in there every every day. You can go to thebulark.com to sign up.

Speaker 1 And you can also watch on YouTube with subtitles.

Speaker 1 When we did the interview, we had a translator who's kind of paraphrasing. And so we were able to communicate and talk.

Speaker 1 And like I said, it was really moving, but it doesn't really work for an audio podcast. I'd wanted to put it on the end of the show.

Speaker 1 But the translation issues make it hard to do without subtitles. So please go watch it.
His

Speaker 1 bravery, his grace, his forbearance, it's just, it's like unbelievable. The idea that this guy gets out of this hell

Speaker 1 and is not filled with rage and anger like you would expect.

Speaker 1 Instead, he was joyful and thanking God and telling us that we should have empathy for Trump and the people that did this. It's just truly, he's remarkable.
So anyway, check that out.

Speaker 1 You can take a look at my newsletter on this topic this morning. And I'm next, we're going to get into some politics with my my old friend Liz Smith.
So stick around for that.

Speaker 1 Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
I am so happy to welcome back a Democratic strategist, author of the book Any Given Tuesday, a political love story.

Speaker 1 She was senior communications advisor for Pete Budigage in 2020. She was my foil in the 2012 presidential campaign.
And she now is consulting for a wide array of Democratic up-and-comers.

Speaker 1 It's Liz Smith. What's up, girl?

Speaker 6 What's up, Tim? Good to see you again.

Speaker 1 It's good to see you.

Speaker 1 We got a lot to talk about. You're helping a lot of good candidates.
I'm going to get to some tangible advice for listeners who want to know how to help campaigns and what they shouldn't do.

Speaker 1 Because there was this big story about scummy fundraising behavior among scam packs on the left. So we'll stay for that at the end.

Speaker 1 If you get bored of me and Liz, but you want that advice, you can scroll to to the end. But we got to do news first.

Speaker 6 Tangible advice is my middle name, Tim.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's right. Slander and tangible advice.
Those are your two main areas that you excel in. But, you know, we got to do the news first.

Speaker 1 And I guess this is a news item that we're going to start with. You know, a lot of things are happening in the immigration space in the open.

Speaker 1 I talked about the interview I did with Andre after he got out of Sakat. And, you know, the Trump administration is looking to round up even more people as part of their mass deportation plan.

Speaker 1 And they're calling in some new agents.

Speaker 1 Here is one of them. It's Fox News, Jesse Wanders, talking to Dean Kane.

Speaker 7 So now I've spoken with some officials over at ICE, and I will be sworn in as an ICE agent, A-S-A-P. So they'll have 80,001 recruits for their 10,000 positions.

Speaker 1 Well, they can't have a better guy than Dean Kane. Are you going to be hopping out of ICE fans and apprehending guys?

Speaker 7 I will do whatever Director Lyons wants me to do. If that's what it takes, absolutely.

Speaker 1 You have to fucking laugh. Dean Kane, Superman from 30 years ago, is going to be getting in the back of unmarked vans, covering his face and nabbing old ladies sitting outside of Home Depot, I guess.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 6 I felt my first reaction to this was shame.

Speaker 1 Personal or for the nation?

Speaker 6 Well, a little bit for the nation, but first personal, and I just need to make a confession. I need to get something off my chest.
I,

Speaker 6 when I was about nine or 10 years old, I had a Dean Cain poster on the wall of my bedroom.

Speaker 1 Was he shirtless or was he in a Superman?

Speaker 6 I think it was in Superman. It was, that was the peak of his career.
And he was smoking hot. And he had this sort of nice boy image, had gone to Princeton and mostly was smoking hot.

Speaker 6 So I do cringe whenever I see him in the news again. But the second reaction I had is I had just read, too, that people who are now getting hired by ICE get a hundred thousand dollar signing bonuses.

Speaker 6 And given that we haven't seen Dean Kane in like anything in years, I think he likely took it not just a virtue signal to the right, but because he needed a little cash.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that could be.

Speaker 1 Though you think he could do okay, like on the village's speaking tour or whatever, but um, you know, I know, I don't know, he's probably got a big house, air conditioning is energy costs are going up, things don't pay for themselves these days.

Speaker 1 The poster reveal is interesting because Tyler, my husband, we've had some poster discussions recently because Jude Law,

Speaker 1 Jude Law, was living in New Orleans for a few months and we were thinking we might bump into him. You know, we had a bunch of friends who'd been bumping into him, small town.

Speaker 1 And when I was sharing this with his father, my father-in-law, he revealed to me that Tyler had a Jude Law poster on his wall.

Speaker 1 And that was maybe one of the first indicators that maybe the sexuality was going a different direction. And I was so excited to tell Jude about that.

Speaker 1 And so now I'm just dying to either meet Dean or Jude so I can share these embarrassing poster stories.

Speaker 6 Yeah, mine's just slightly more embarrassing, though.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think. Well, just because of the way Dean's aged.
Did you have any other poster? Were there any others do you remember?

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Brad Pitt had a starring world for a while. Russell Crowe.
Russell Crowe is my ultimate one.

Speaker 1 Gladiator? Russell Crow? Yes.

Speaker 6 Oh, yeah. That era.
Could not get enough of him.

Speaker 6 I'm still into Russell Crowe. I'm still into him.

Speaker 1 I was a sport poster, man. Jalen Rose for me.
Okay. Broader thoughts on the ICE stuff, the immigration stuff.
There was this thing that I was referencing is that they're calling Project Trojan Horse.

Speaker 1 These guys really love cosplaying cops and robbers, you know, Cash and Christy Noam. They like putting on costumes.
And they have this thing called Project Trojan Horse.

Speaker 1 They get a bunch of guys in the back of a U-Haul or something, and then they put on their masks, and then they drive up to the Home Depot, and then they jump out and they grab the guys who are just there trying to do day labor.

Speaker 1 And, you know, it feels kind of un-American to me. And I know that we after the election, there was a lot of chatter about how Dems handled this stuff.
There had been kind of a losing issue for them.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Where are you at, both on the kind of principle and politics of this topic right now?

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's a losing issue for Democrats, but it does not need to be. I mean, I feel like I've been screaming this from the rooftops forever.
And I've talked about it with you on your podcast.

Speaker 6 You know, I worked on Tom Swazi's special election in New York last cycle, and the top issue was immigration.

Speaker 6 And he found a way to jujitsu it, go on the offense on it, and say, I'm the one who wants reasonable immigration reform. I'll take asylum, tightening up asylum requirements.
You know what?

Speaker 6 If you want to build a little wall, I'll take a little wall. I'm not thrilled about it, but that's what compromise is about.

Speaker 6 And his opponent was very much like my way or the highway went with Donald Trump on killing the bipartisan bill. But I saw there that there is a way to talk about this.

Speaker 6 And on the ICE rate specifically, there is an angle that I would love to see more Democrats take, which is that the Trump administration says that all of this stuff makes us safer. It does not.

Speaker 6 Having law enforcement in these mass jump out of unmarked vans and round people up sows fear and it sows distrust in law enforcement writ large.

Speaker 6 And if immigrant communities don't trust law enforcement, they're not going to report crimes. They're not going to help solve crimes.
So you will thus have more crime. And that is a bad thing.

Speaker 6 And that's why there are not a ton ton of issues right now where you'd say law enforcement lines up with Democrats. But on the whole, law enforcement does line up with Democrats on these issues.

Speaker 6 That, you know, having these like masked robbers, like cowboys running around with guns in their communities and arresting people makes us less safe.

Speaker 6 That trying to have police officers serve as federal immigration enforcement officials is bad, takes them off the beat, also makes it less likely for immigrant communities to work with them.

Speaker 6 So we should adopt the language of of law enforcement on this and say, hey, this is not making us more safe. And we should get rid of violent criminals.

Speaker 6 Don't get me wrong, but this is not what that is.

Speaker 1 Speaking of touchy issues for the Democrats that are in the news, this Reuters report yesterday fucking boiling my blood. So the trans military ban has gone into effect.

Speaker 1 Sometimes it's kind of hard to follow this stuff. You don't keep people updated because they like announce it.
And then it's like, did it really? It's in the courts. Did it really happen?

Speaker 1 It's in effect now. The Reuters story is this, though.
The U.S. Air Force is denying early retirement to all transgender service members, even if they have between over 15 years of service.

Speaker 1 So that means they're going to get kicked out with no retirement benefits, nothing. No thank you for your service.
Goodbye. Crazy.

Speaker 1 Let's just get your take on the merits of it, and then we'll talk about how Dems handle the issue.

Speaker 6 So I don't think this is a particularly thorny one.

Speaker 6 This is one issue where, you know, in recent years, we've actually seen attitudes backslide on trans issues.

Speaker 6 I think in part because of how Democrats have mishandled the issue.

Speaker 6 But one area where majority of Americans are sort of on the more progressive liberal side is on trans people serving in the military.

Speaker 6 Put aside the public opinion, though, this is a policy that is just born out of cruelty. And it breaks the trust that we have with people who say, I'm going to go serve our country.

Speaker 6 It serves literally no purpose to do something like this. And I think that Democrats should call it out.
And it's one where we'll be on firm ground.

Speaker 6 And I think a lot of people understand that if someone volunteers to put their life on the line, to serve their country, that we should, if they serve honorably, that they should be able to retire with dignity.

Speaker 1 So I think this is where you get into, and you're kind of in the advice business, talking to a bunch of different types of Democrats. And obviously, some of them have different views on all this.

Speaker 1 Some of them have different constituencies, you know, but we come out of the last election because of like this big, this ad that Trump spent tens of millions of dollars on talking about how Kamala wanted us to pay for sex changes for trans inmates or whatever it was.

Speaker 1 And you get then to this moment of, okay, ooh, like maybe we should just not like engage on this. Right.

Speaker 1 And I know that I think that you and I both agree on this, that that's just like wrong. Like you have to engage on stuff that people care about and talk about.

Speaker 1 Like you can say all you want that like this stuff only affects so few people. And it's like, sure, like that's an okay thing to say.
I know you can get away with that in certain races.

Speaker 1 But, like, broadly speaking, if the public cares about something, you got to be able to talk about it and engage on it. So, like, what is your advice to folks?

Speaker 1 I mean, if trans-military ban is an area that makes sense to engage on, should they be more aggressive about it?

Speaker 1 Like, how do you kind of talk about the issue more broadly and not get into a situation where it becomes an anchor like it was last time? Should you not worry about that?

Speaker 1 Because the morality, I mean, it's not

Speaker 1 the easiest question to answer.

Speaker 1 What are you saying to candidates?

Speaker 6 Yeah, more broadly on this issue, I agree with you. Candidates need to engage.
You can't just tell voters, this is a distraction.

Speaker 6 So I'm not going to talk about it. That's like the biggest F you you can do to voters possible.

Speaker 6 And Democrats, and Republicans do it too, but like we need to like eliminate distraction from our vocabulary because it basically tells voters that their concerns are distractions, not important to us.

Speaker 1 I hate that.

Speaker 1 Like we should talk about kitchen table issues instead as if people aren't talking about trans sports stuff at the kitchen table for example it's like people are talking about that i don't know what you mean by i guess if you mean that we should only talk about pocketbook issues okay whatever that's at least something but this is something people are talking about there are a range of opinions on these things in the democratic party um and

Speaker 6 but what i would just advise is no matter where you stand whether if you're someone who says no

Speaker 6 I don't think trans girls should play in girls' sports, or if you're someone who says, yes, I think that they should have the opportunity to, maybe leave it to local governing bodies.

Speaker 6 But what I say is just to take a step back and whatever your position is and speak in the language of compassion and grace.

Speaker 6 We need to show compassion to oftentimes the kids who are caught in the middle of a firestorm that they never asked to be a part of.

Speaker 6 all while they're struggling with difficult questions about their identity.

Speaker 6 But we also need to show some grace to people who have questions about these issues, who maybe aren't quite where we are on these issues.

Speaker 6 And there are some Democrats and there are some activists who, when someone says, I have questions about trans girls playing in girls' sports, just say, well, you're a bigot.

Speaker 6 There's no room for you in the party. When there are Democrats in our party, like Seth Moulton, I think who said something like that, I don't know that I would have said it the way Seth Moulton did.

Speaker 6 There are a lot of Democrats who said to him, you're a bigot. There's no room for you in our party.
And if you're a voter and you have questions about this, and you know, 80%

Speaker 6 of Americans are on the opposite side of this from Democrats, and you see Democrats saying to Seth Moulton, who I think has generally voted 100% the way that trans activists would want him to, then you're going to be like, well, they think I'm a bigot.

Speaker 6 They think I don't belong to this party. So why the hell would I vote for them?

Speaker 6 And so I think a lot of this is about tone and how we approach it versus just saying,

Speaker 6 and we can't just say that anyone who has questions or anyone who expresses doubts is automatically throwing trans people under the bus.

Speaker 1 I would add one thing to what you said, and tell me if you disagree with this. Like,

Speaker 1 I feel like with regular voters, also,

Speaker 1 and also with gay and lesbian voters, like with lefty activist types, give you credibility as a candidate. If you're like, I'm fucking pissed at this outrage.

Speaker 1 Like, they are kicking somebody out of the military who served for 18 years. Like, I'm not just putting out a statement about it.

Speaker 1 Like I'm fucking pissed and I'm going to rant about it and talk about how they are unpatriotic and it makes them bad and it is wrong. It's fundamentally wrong.
It's fundamentally un-American.

Speaker 1 And like by saying that, assuming it's authentic.

Speaker 1 Then when you are talking about other issues that are like a little bit more complicated, where it's not as cut and dry, where you're expressing nuance, it's a lot harder to say, oh, that person's a bigot, right?

Speaker 1 It's like, well, no, you know what I mean? Because they're being real and not like being touchy about everything. I I don't know.
What do you make of that?

Speaker 6 Yeah, I agree. I mean, maybe I didn't come across as pissed as you do when you first asked me the question, but that was my version of pissed.
I'm pissed. I think it is unpatriotic.

Speaker 6 We made a promise to these people. They're serving our country and we should.
pay our obligations to them. And I think this is only born out of cruelty, sticking people in the eye.

Speaker 6 We need that relationship of trust between, you know, our country and the people who decide to serve it. So I totally believe with you.

Speaker 6 And more generally, right, I think that we need to say that like we need to live our own lives and give adults the freedom to live their own lives and make their own choices and like, you know, get the hell out of everyone's private lives.

Speaker 1 You sounded pissed. Oh, did I? You sounded pissed.
It wasn't about you. You sounded bad.
You got me a little fired up. You know, I've got a flourish.

Speaker 1 I've got some flourishes with my, with my cussing, but, you know, you sounded pissed.

Speaker 1 Other things to be pissed about. What is happening in Texas? I guess the FBI.
So the FBI right now is firing people who who they perceive to be mean to Mr.

Speaker 1 Trump in the past or who have friends who are friends with people who were mean to Mr. Trump.
They're doing that. They're firing those people, getting them out.

Speaker 1 And then they're rededicating their resources now to trying to track down the Texas state. representatives that have fled to Illinois because that's what's going to keep the country safe.

Speaker 1 The redistricting stuff has gotten really insane. And, you know, we also have today, I guess, the Republicans out trying to out the ante with Florida.

Speaker 1 I think Indiana maybe is the other state looking about trying to potentially redistrict.

Speaker 1 How do you navigate all this at this point, you know, if you're a Democrat, both the Texas Democrats, but then kind of broader?

Speaker 6 Well, I think the Texas Democrats are handling it well. They're showing some fight that they're not just going to roll over and let this happen.
And it's wise for Democrats to do that. It's wise.

Speaker 6 Let me just preface this. I hate gerrymandering.
I think that gerrymandering is one of a true evil in politics. It makes politics worse.

Speaker 6 It makes it so that, you know, it allows politicians to draw their lines so that they choose their voters rather than voters choosing politicians.

Speaker 6 It ensures that we have all, it gives incentive to have only the most extreme voices in the conversation. And so I am not a pro-gerrymandering person.

Speaker 6 However, however, if Texas Republicans are going to go out and do this and there are opportunities in other states for us to respond in turn, I think we sort of got to do it.

Speaker 6 And that's the problem is that there aren't a lot of states where we're going to have that option. California, with some work, with some finagling, looks like it could be done before 2026.

Speaker 6 Unlikely in a place like New York.

Speaker 1 Just because the law is the rule.

Speaker 1 You got to do two sessions or whatever.

Speaker 6 There's a lot to untangle.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Again, it doesn't bring me dory to say this, but yes, if Republicans are going to do that, then we should fight back and do what Newsom is trying to do in California. But we should also

Speaker 6 understand that there's a reason why they're doing this. They're pretty worried about the midterms.
They're pretty worried that they're going to lose the house. And why are they worried?

Speaker 6 Because they're pushing through stuff like the big beautiful bill that is like a massive handout to rich people paid for by taking away health care from poor people and sick kids.

Speaker 6 And we should make sure that while we're fighting that redistricting fight, we're actually really talking about the reasons why they're doing this and why they're feeling vulnerable.

Speaker 6 Because Trump's tariffs and economic policy are starting to hurt the economy. They pass this one beautiful bill.

Speaker 6 I just don't want it to be Democrats out there talking too much about redistricting and gerrymandering because most people think gerrymandering is pretty icky.

Speaker 1 Or don't even know what it is.

Speaker 6 Or don't even know what it is, right? It's a very insider thing. To the people who know what it is,

Speaker 6 I don't think most people are like, hell yeah, let's gerrymander, you know, except for Sikkos on Twitter. But I think it's a necessary thing to do.

Speaker 6 And Democrats, as we know, the base is really out for blood they want to see fighting there is that actually a story recently that had members of congress saying that when they'd go back home from meetings that their constituents would be like suggesting that they get shot and things like that that's what they wanted to see they wanted to see blood drawn for this fight so you know texas democrats fleeing the state to stop this from happening seems like we all know how this one's going to end.

Speaker 1 Are you suggesting that some false flag attacks Democrats do on themselves, you know, where they start, where they get bloodied, where they, you know, adjust?

Speaker 1 I don't know what are you suggesting a Jesse Smollett type idea?

Speaker 6 I am not suggesting this. No, and I think that the voters are actually suggesting real life that you go out and you get shot to show how much you care.
But it is a good sign.

Speaker 6 Democrats are showing fight. And, you know, what Newsom is doing in California shows that Republicans can't do these things without consequences.

Speaker 1 Is the California thing really possible, do you think? And you said we kind of of know how this ends in Texas. Do we know how it ends in California?

Speaker 1 I worry a little bit that you get to a place where Texas and Florida fucking jam it through, but a couple of goody two-shoes in the California legislature or whatever prevent California from doing it.

Speaker 1 And they really do,

Speaker 1 you know, kind of squeeze out seven, eight, nine more seats, Republicans.

Speaker 1 Is that a possible outcome?

Speaker 6 I mean, yeah, because there are a number of steps that they have to take in California. It's not like a given,

Speaker 6 but they're trying. And I've heard from people in this state that they feel like it's very possible that they can do it.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

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Speaker 1 One of the people who comes to mind when we're talking about this is,

Speaker 1 will you tell me how to pronounce his name? James, is it Tallarico or Tellerico? Tellerico. Tellerico.
Okay, I've been doing it right. I was with Betto last night.
We'll talk about that in a sec.

Speaker 1 And I feel like he pronounced it wrong or someone else pronounced it wrong. I mean, then it had me self-conscious.
Anyway, Tallarico.

Speaker 6 Were you at a furry convention?

Speaker 1 Was Betto a furry?

Speaker 6 No, remember there was that fake news back in 2019? I think it was pushed by the Bernie Bros that he was like a furry. It became a whole internet meme thing.

Speaker 1 Oh, I missed that one. Betto is not a furry.
There's so much rude stuff about Betto that was put out back then. People had Betto derangement syndrome in 2020.

Speaker 6 I mean, I worked for Pete in 2020. Don't talk to me about anyone else's derangement syndrome.

Speaker 1 Though, I don't know.

Speaker 1 Some of the Pete people had Betto derangement syndrome. You know, I feel like everybody should have been on the same.

Speaker 1 I don't think they did. You don't think so? Okay.
Anyway, James Tallerica, we'll talk, we'll rehash 2019 internet politics another time. What's your vibe been on that guy? I don't know.

Speaker 1 You know, he does the Rogan. He's doing the Liz Smith strategy,

Speaker 1 which is now conventional wisdom in democratic politics, that people should go everywhere was something that you were saying, you know, seven years ago when we were both younger and prettier. And

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 childless.

Speaker 1 And you were saying that.

Speaker 1 And now they're all doing it. They're all like, you know what we should do is do interviews with more people.
Huh, that's interesting. Liz was on that one.
So he does Rogan.

Speaker 1 I have to be candid, I've not watched the full three hours, but what I've watched, he did pretty well. I think he's been doing pretty good talking about this redistricting stuff.

Speaker 1 He's been on our YouTube. What do you make of him and like, and sort of that movement down there?

Speaker 6 So full disclosure,

Speaker 6 I myself have done some work for James Tallarico.

Speaker 1 Well, you've done work for everybody. Do we have to do full disclosure anymore? Just assume if Liz is talking about a Democratic politician who's good, that she's done work for them.

Speaker 6 There are a few exceptions, but yes, I agree so and but he first came onto my radar in 2021 and as you know i've had this thing since working for pete where i'm just constantly i know that there are more pete's out there i know that there's more untapped talent that it's like not the people you see on the sunday shows not the people that you see on cable news and that we just need to look for them and someone actually called me in 2021 it was like a media consultant and said you got to check out this guy james tallerico i checked him out i was like damn this guy's a real deal.

Speaker 6 And continued to follow him. And what's been interesting is he's a state rep in Texas, but has built up a massive TikTok following.

Speaker 6 And his videos are not like defund the police, like, you know, saying the most maximalist selecty stuff. A lot of it is him talking about issues, you know, facing the state of Texas in terms of faith.

Speaker 6 You know, he's in seminary school right now, educating, training to be a minister. And so he does it.
And it's so fresh. It's so refreshing the way he talks about it.

Speaker 6 And he frames things in values, in his faith, in a way that has a cross-cutting, cross-partisan appeal. And that's why Joe Rogan actually reached out to him.

Speaker 6 Someone showed him one of the videos of Tallarico talking about the Ten Commandments. And he was like, holy crap.
Like, I want this guy on my show.

Speaker 1 So is that true? That's really what happened? Yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah, that's really what happened. They sent an email to like his campaign inbox.

Speaker 1 Info at jamestellerico.

Speaker 6 And it's like, hello, would you like to be on Joe Rogan's show? Like, can you imagine?

Speaker 1 This is why I read the info at the bulwark emails because every once in a while you have a good one. So just keep them short out there, though, listeners.

Speaker 1 It isn't good, you know, if I open it and it's a short novella. I don't usually read those.

Speaker 6 But I think he and like Pete has a very like sort of hypnotic, calming way of talking. I mentioned he weaves in his faith and values a lot, and he understands the power of telling a story, right?

Speaker 6 A lot of Democrats, when they're talking about issues, it's policies, it's bullet points, it's 10-point plans, it's this. James Hallerico paints a story

Speaker 6 where you have a good guy, a bad guy, you know, universal values are represented in it. And his method of communicating is one that I think, and I'm going to have more Democrats study.

Speaker 6 But it's also very different from what you hear from a lot of people.

Speaker 6 You know, it's a very different model from what you hear from like a Betto in Texas, from a Julian Castro, from a Jasmine Crockett. We've sunk a lot of money into Texas and trying to win statewide.

Speaker 6 It hasn't been working.

Speaker 6 And maybe we need to go into a completely different direction and put up someone like James Tallarico who can go and speak to different communities in a different language and really go everywhere.

Speaker 6 Even though he is a Democrat, he reads a little bit, you know, he reads a little bit different. And I think we should just, in general, try to find more interesting different candidates.

Speaker 1 The sentence was just standing there. You're like, he reads.
And I was like, I don't know if that's that differentiating. He reads.

Speaker 1 Is he different, though? So I guess this is my question. I don't know.
And this is what I was asking. And Betto and I were talking about this last night.

Speaker 1 I don't think I'm betraying any confidences because I say this all the time, which is just like,

Speaker 1 I think the Democrats need to figure out a way to compete in Texas. I don't, it's not crazy.
Betto wasn't that far away from winning in 2018.

Speaker 1 They backslid a little bit last time, but the whole country backslid.

Speaker 1 And if there's going to be a time where you could get a surprise win, it kind of feels like like the first midterm of Trump's second presidency would be the time, you know, for like just by the nature of how midterms work and backsliding and who knows the time of the economy.

Speaker 1 But I look at him and I'm like, isn't he just a lib that is also a pastor? And that's fine. And just full disclosure, everybody knows it's like, I love that.

Speaker 1 And I love the fact that he is so real and him and passionate. And there's something to be said for that, like for voters just looking for somebody that they can trust.

Speaker 1 Like in Texas, do you maybe not need somebody that has has cultural, like actual issues, issue differentiation from the party?

Speaker 6 Yeah. And, you know, Betto ran a really good campaign in 2018, as you mentioned.
And it was one, he went everywhere. He went to small route, red.

Speaker 1 Still going everywhere.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Didn't just campaign in like, you know, Dallas, Houston, typical Democratic areas.
And he struggled in 2022, right?

Speaker 6 Because that was after he'd gone out and said, hell, yeah, we're going to take your AR-15s and whatever other stuff. You know, people took a lot of positions in 2020.
Let's put it that way.

Speaker 6 And so I think with Tallerico, you know, we'll see, you know, looking more at his positions, all of that.

Speaker 1 I guess taking them aside, like, that's not, there are a lot of good people that run in Texas. So, like, without talking about, like, just as a general matter,

Speaker 1 and even broughting it up to red states more broadly, I had Dan Osborne on last Friday, I guess. That even he, he's like focusing more on the economic populism.

Speaker 1 Uh, David Jolly is a never Trumper running in Florida. None of these people

Speaker 1 are, I don't know. Like, for example, John Bell Edwards, when he won in Louisiana, was like, I'm pro-life.
Like, we think we should ban abortion at eight weeks.

Speaker 1 Whatever you think about that position, like, he had a tangible issue differentiation for the Democrats on a cultural issue. None of these other people really do.
Is that needed, do you think, or not?

Speaker 1 I don't, I'm open to hearing both ideas.

Speaker 6 I think we should encourage heterodoxy in the Democratic Party. And

Speaker 6 I think we can draw a direct line from when Democrats and Democratic campaigns got super nationalized to now, and how we've really just gotten killed in all of these red states.

Speaker 6 I think back to 2017, when Tom Perez was campaigning for a mayoral candidate in Nebraska,

Speaker 6 and he gets lit up by NAREL and these groups because the mayoral candidate in Nebraska is personally pro-life or pro-life. And they're saying, you know, we're not going to fund you anymore.

Speaker 6 This is a disgrace to Democratic values, all that.

Speaker 6 And that was when we, after that, was when we sort of started to see that then choice groups, gun groups, climate groups are basically saying that the only candidates we're going to support, the only way we're going to support these Democratic organizations is if they support the maximalist positions on all of these issues.

Speaker 6 And that makes it really, really hard to get elected in Louisiana, to get elected in West Virginia, to get elected in South Dakota, to get elected in Texas.

Speaker 6 And yes, so we need to give people some space. And an example that I use in my book, Any Given Tuesday that you mentioned,

Speaker 1 available now at online retailers everywhere.

Speaker 6 Well, it's a really good example. So I talk about how in 2011, I went and I did debate prep and media prep and helped out with communications for Earl Ray Tomlin, the governor of West Virginia.

Speaker 6 He ran, he was endorsed by NRA, he was endorsed by Right to Life, he was endorsed by Chamber of Commerce,

Speaker 6 but when he was elected and he was in office, a 20-week abortion ban came to his desk and he vetoed it because he said it had, you know, it would have violated the state's constitution.

Speaker 6 Now, a lot of Democrats would have said, you know, you can't support this guy. He's endorsed by the NRA and right to life.
But now, flash forward, he's term limited. A Republican takes office.

Speaker 6 What does the Republican do? He signs a born-alive bill, which basically portrays

Speaker 6 doctors as murderers.

Speaker 6 So it's like, okay, there's a difference between a pro-life Democrat and a pro-life Republican, and like, especially on everything else other than abortion, Democrats are going to be with you.

Speaker 6 So I would rather take a Democrat who can win in a state like South Dakota, West Virginia, Nebraska, Texas, who might not be with us on climate, who might not be with us on gun control, who might not be with us on abortion, because they're going to be a hell of a lot better than the Republicans on everything else.

Speaker 6 And like, as Democrats, we need to understand there is no one way to be a Democrat.

Speaker 6 A Democrat running for mayor of New York City, like Zoran Mamdani, is going to be very different from an independent running in Nebraska like Dan Osborne. And we got to be okay with that.

Speaker 1 It needs to be. I don't know if it is going to be.
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Speaker 1 All right, we're about to blow people's minds on this front because we've hit my hobby horse. Yeah.
You know, which is we need some mod-pilled ems running for the Senate in these states.

Speaker 1 You've complained about the maximum less left several times already on the podcast for a half hour in. I want everybody to just brace themselves for this.

Speaker 1 One other thing that you and I agree on is that we want to have candidates that are fucking authentically themselves and show that they care about people,

Speaker 1 even if they don't always disagree with us.

Speaker 1 I think that's one thing that's really good about both Betto and James Tallarico. One thing I like about both of them.

Speaker 1 Another person

Speaker 1 that maybe fits that bill that you just mentioned, Zoron.

Speaker 1 And when we were in the green room, you informed me that you're Zoron pilled, which I think has got to be quite surprising to some of your trolls online who have called you like basically a Republican,

Speaker 1 like a Republican, a crypto Republican, New York moderate shill.

Speaker 1 And so explain. Tell us more.

Speaker 6 My favorite is when I get like crypto or APAC. It's like I have never once in my life interacted with AIPAC or crypto.
It's like, you know, come on, do your research.

Speaker 1 Well, I don't know. You have some questionable associations in your past, including this podcast.
So I don't know if you should encourage people to do their research about you.

Speaker 1 You know, you never know what'll turn up.

Speaker 6 I'm transparent about it. Like, like you, I wrote about all this stuff in a book.
Like, I don't shy away from it. I embrace my mistakes and my flaws.
But

Speaker 6 to this, yeah, I was really torn up about how to vote in that mayoral election. I knew I was not going to rank Andrew Cuomo.
You know, I worked for Andrew Cuomo before. I wrote about him in my book.

Speaker 6 I think that he embodied the sort of the worst of American politics, which is just a relentless desire to accumulate power, no matter the toll it took on anyone else.

Speaker 6 And I found that when I worked for him and that when other people worked out for him, he brought out the worst in people.

Speaker 6 And what we want, what I want from politicians and our elected leaders are people who bring out the best in us. And so he was out.

Speaker 1 You've gone so soft now that you're a mom. I know.
I sort of have.

Speaker 1 We do. We're both such softies now.
What happened to us, Liz?

Speaker 6 Well, because I think I want my son to see positive role models and especially positive male role models in politics.

Speaker 6 If I'm working in this industry, I don't want him to see me working for people who are toxic bullies and people who are, you know, clearly bad role models for him. Okay, put that that aside.

Speaker 6 But so I knew that, but then I didn't know who I was going to vote for other people, and it was a tough field.

Speaker 1 Zellner Myrie was standing right there, just waiting for you to rank him first.

Speaker 1 I did.

Speaker 6 Wait, well, wait, you didn't let me finish.

Speaker 6 So the New York Times came out with this editorial after saying they weren't going to weigh in on the race, saying that elections are choices, and you either have to rank Cuomo or rank.

Speaker 6 Zoron or, you know, your vote doesn't count. And you can't rank Zoron.
You have to rank Andrew Cuomo. And I'm like, what the fuck, man?

Speaker 6 This is a paper that called for his resignation multiple times, called him out on everything. And now you're saying like we have to vote for Andrew Puomo and we have to make this choice.

Speaker 6 And that day I was like, you know what? I'm going to take their advice. I am going to rank Zoran Mamdani.
And I ended up, I ranked. Zellner first because I thought he ran like a good campaign.

Speaker 6 He should have gotten more attention. I did Brad Lander second.
And then I did Zoran third. And because because I liked the campaign Zoran did.

Speaker 6 I thought that he was really incredible, lights out impressive in these debates. I liked his general style.

Speaker 6 I think that he was, he is, I think, a much more effective leftist than like an AOC or Bernie Sanders because he doesn't do that annoying, scoldy, preachy thing where if you're not with me, you're a tool of the corporations, you're a Republican, you're this.

Speaker 6 He is more of an inclusive type of socialist, I would say. He has less of that like populist anger.

Speaker 6 And I also think some of his policies, like free buses, are intriguing and maybe something that we should test out here in New York. And behind the scenes, I'd heard that he's a thoughtful person.

Speaker 6 He's willing to engage with people with different ideas. So I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
And like, for me,

Speaker 6 my biggest thing in politics right now is we need new voices and we need to sort of burn down the establishment.

Speaker 6 The establishment of the Democratic Party, of course, that means different things to different people. But the leadership in our party is bad and it's gotten us to this place.

Speaker 6 And we need to like exercise ourselves or the demons of people like Andrew Cuomo if we are going to be a successful party going forward.

Speaker 1 You love New York, though. You love New York.
You're a New York Post tabloid reader.

Speaker 1 You care about it. You've worked for multiple New York city officials.

Speaker 1 Some people, you move into a place and whatever, a lot of New York transplants. That's not you.
Like you're a New Yorker. So

Speaker 1 is there any of you that's like, oh, I'm a little nervous? I don't know. I'm a little nervous about Zoron.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I'm specifically nervous about the public safety piece because that was, that's my top issue, is public safety and disorder.

Speaker 6 Not going to get into it on this, but had a number of like very unfortunate and uncomfortable interactions over the past six months that made me very worried about public safety and order in the city.

Speaker 6 And I want to make sure that when he goes in, that he does deliver on his promise of not believing in defunding the police and understanding that public safety is really important.

Speaker 6 That's by far the thing that worries me the most. Yeah.

Speaker 1 The thing that worries me the most about that is it might be somewhat out of his hands. And you saw this in San Francisco, where like the cops kind of felt like the politicians didn't have their back.

Speaker 1 So they kind of stopped doing as much. I kind of understand the police perspective.
I had a, I have a couple of cop friends in the bay that I understood their perspective.

Speaker 1 I also, you know, you need to do your job. You know, you've seen that turn around in San Francisco.
One of your other clients, Daniel Lurie, has done a great job as mayor of San Francisco.

Speaker 1 But so like that would be the thing that would worry me as like actually even a little bit more than his policies, right? Like there's a trust. Like he's got to focus on trust, you know?

Speaker 6 Exactly. And your relationship with NYPD can like make or break your mayoralty.

Speaker 6 And we saw that early on with Bill de Blasio when he showed up to a cop's funeral and all the cops like turned their backs on him. And it was a horrible visual, but it continued throughout.

Speaker 6 So I am hoping he's doing a lot of those meetings behind the scenes. Cause you're right.
It's not just about the policies. It's that.

Speaker 6 And we did see in a number of big cities policing slowdowns because police officers didn't feel like the people in power had their back.

Speaker 6 Also, you know, they felt like the prosecutors, you know, if you arrest someone, Chesa Boudin in San Francisco wasn't going to prosecute them. So what's the point? What's the point?

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Speaker 1 All right, we kind of covered this, but just really quick.

Speaker 1 You know, you have clients you're giving this advice to. For Tim's, we're still in August recess.

Speaker 1 It feels like we're still in August recess because they left early because they're scared about Epstein. So they have the longest August recess ever.

Speaker 1 What issues should be Dems be talking about right now? Like, are you like, fuck it, let's roll with this Epstein cover-up? Should be all big, beautiful bill stuff. Economy sucks.

Speaker 1 Like, any thoughts on how the Dems should be leveraging the recess?

Speaker 6 Well, I think the three of them sort of interrelate. But really, I mean, I would really go out and gin up energy and attention around the Big Beautiful bill.

Speaker 6 That's the one that I think people will most likely vote on. And, you know, we're seeing these town halls.
Like there was a town hall in, I think it was in Nebraska the other day.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we played a clip from it.

Speaker 6 Like 750 people showed up and just like annihilated this dude. And so Democrats should go out there, you know, make clear what's happening there.

Speaker 6 They should organize to make sure that when there are these town halls, that people are going to them and showing up and voicing their discontent. I also like what the DCCC is doing.

Speaker 6 They're doing this like people's town halls where in these red districts where the Republican members of Congress aren't doing town halls, they're sending Democrats in to do it.

Speaker 6 And it basically is like, one, it'll get coverage because there's sort of a freak show element to it. You know, that doesn't happen every day.
But two, it's like basically calling these guys,

Speaker 6 what's the word I could use?

Speaker 1 It's like calling them out for pussies. We can say that again, Liz.
We can say it. We can say the R and P word again.
The rich bankers told us Trump won and we're now free.

Speaker 6 Well, you can, but I'm going to say

Speaker 6 for being weaklings. Um, and we know that masculinity is very important for all these guys, so I think it's really important.

Speaker 6 And we're going to have to keep doing this because you and I know the consequences of this. And sometimes there is this idea among people who follow the news more.

Speaker 6 You certainly follow it more than I do,

Speaker 6 but I follow it more than 90% of people.

Speaker 6 And there's this idea that because we understand these things that everyone else does, but if you look at the polling, like, I don't know, there's a lot of voters aren't that tuned in.

Speaker 6 And so we've got to be pretty relentless about it. And it is as clean an argument as we can get.
And it undermines Donald Trump's core strength, right? That he was a different type of Republican.

Speaker 6 He's not a Mitt Romney, Paul Ryan Republican. He's someone who wants to protect entitlements and help the regular man.

Speaker 6 And this is a handout, massive tax cut for rich people that will be paid for by ripping away health care for poor people and sick kids.

Speaker 6 I mean, simple, but we got to hammer that that every day of the week.

Speaker 1 We're running out of time. Two rampant fire questions.
There was a Daily Mail story. Daily Mail has well-placed sources that Steve Bannon is plotting a 2028 run.

Speaker 1 Bannon's reply was he supporting Trump in 2028?

Speaker 1 What do you think about Bannon or Trump 2028?

Speaker 6 Pass.

Speaker 1 Pass?

Speaker 1 Pass? You got nothing? Hard to remember?

Speaker 1 I mean, what is happening with these people? This is our life. This is the world.
This is our real life, Liz.

Speaker 1 You know, you were an artist, young Astriber in the 90s who cared about American democracy and loved it and watched The War Room with James Carvell.

Speaker 1 And now we've got a racist podcast host and a guy trying to end the democracy.

Speaker 6 And that's why it's a hard pass for me. I want no part of any of it.
I think all of the rest is unsaid. What do you want me to do?

Speaker 6 Go through all the greatest hits that you've gone through 3,000 times on this podcast about each of those men?

Speaker 6 I do think, you know, Steve Bannon is a little bit of a performance artist here.

Speaker 6 And I don't know how tongue-in-cheek the 2028 thing is, but I would actually be a little bit concerned that it's not totally tongue-in-cheek, as we saw after, you know, the 2020 election. But

Speaker 6 I don't know. I would maybe be into a Trump-Bannon primary.

Speaker 1 There we go. There is a take.
It took you a minute to come around to take a Bannon Vance primary. That would be something that would be very good for this podcast.
I'll tell you.

Speaker 1 Not bad for the country, good for the podcast. So I hope it doesn't happen because I would rather things good happen to the country.
But if we're stuck with it, that's true. Okay, really quick.

Speaker 1 Also, did Jeffrey Epstein kill himself, do you think?

Speaker 6 I do, but I don't know. Okay.
Yeah. 100%.

Speaker 6 I do tend to think he did. He had plenty of reasons to.

Speaker 6 But more important than whether he killed himself or not is that we get to see the files under, and we get full transparency on who all of his clients were, what Donald Trump's involvement was.

Speaker 6 And I really think it's important that these people who for years called for releasing these files and being fully transparent, that they actually deliver on that promise.

Speaker 1 I got to say one of my favorite moments of the podcast recently is when I asked Chris Murphy that question and he did like

Speaker 1 the length of the pause. You've seen the video of Ross Douthat asking Peter Thiel if he thinks humanity should exist and Peter Thiel pauses for like 20 seconds.
Chris Murphy did that on that.

Speaker 1 He was like, and he just goes like, I don't know. I'm like, I love that.
I love that that's where we're at right now. Cause I don't know.
It's the right answer, I think. Who knows? Who the fuck knows?

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Speaker 1 As teased at the beginning, the final topic. This group, I don't know anything about these people.
So it's not personal. Group called Mothership, I guess.
There's a group of PACs.

Speaker 1 If you're a listener of this, my guess is you're probably getting texts and emails from some of these PACs.

Speaker 1 There's a bunch of them. One of the names that jumped out at me that I see all the time is End Citizens United.
I'm always like, what is that? Who is that?

Speaker 1 And it says a group. They're texting resistance people, asking them to chip in eight bucks to save democracy.
Since 2018, according to this article, they had raised $678 million, $678 million.

Speaker 1 11 million went to candidates' campaigns or national party committees. The rest went to the or just the infrastructure of

Speaker 1 whatever, funding all these fake PACs. Act Blue is starting to crack down on this, which is good.
This is bad. This sucks.
People want to feel like they're doing something. I get it.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? And so they're kind of preying on people who want to feel like they're doing something, which is the right instinct.

Speaker 1 So I don't know if you have any thoughts on that topic or as we said at the top, like what is an actual useful thing for folks to do?

Speaker 6 Yeah, dude, it's fucked up. It's fucked up.

Speaker 6 And if you dig into the numbers, if someone gives $100, only $1.60 of that would actually go to a candidate.

Speaker 6 And I think that party organs and leaders in the party need to just straight up call this out and say do not give to these groups these groups are scam packs and they're preying on you um and the second thing and i've seen that something floating around on this is that there's a proposal to have act blue um

Speaker 6 have uh sort of regulations for participating feels like this is happening i think it seems like this is yeah

Speaker 6 and where you basically deplatform But more importantly than that, and I know when I work for Pete, we saw a lot of some people doing this, and we just would directly call them out when they do that.

Speaker 6 But we need to more directly call them.

Speaker 1 Using his name, funding on his name for fake things, and we'd say, don't give to this.

Speaker 6 This is that. I know on Kamala Harris's campaign, they did that as well.
I think on Fetterman's campaign, they did that as well. But we need to directly call them out.

Speaker 6 And we should just generally tell people: what I tell my friends and like earmuffs for like the fundraisers for my various clients, don't give money over time.

Speaker 6 And two, is give money directly to candidates. Don't, if it's a group you've you've never heard of, don't give money to them.

Speaker 6 I think from the top down, we need to have more aggressive communications because that story was pretty sickening. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Another is Democratic House candidates. Like if you've heard of somebody, okay, whatever.
If you really like somebody, you can give money. That's fine.

Speaker 1 But if you've heard of them and you're not a sicko, like if they're a famous person, they're already doing well. Right.

Speaker 1 Like the candidates that need money are the frontline house candidates who are in some of these districts that are going to

Speaker 1 make the difference. So we'll raise, you know, have a couple of them on the FOD so folks know.
But that's yeah, you should have a list, right?

Speaker 6 Because most people don't know how to find like the Cook political rankings.

Speaker 1 That's a good place to go, though.

Speaker 6 It's great. I love it.
It's like my porn, but we need to like educate people and put that information out for people.

Speaker 6 Otherwise, it's going to be hard and their money's just going to go to, you know, whoever's running against Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Speaker 1 I'll take it on as a project, but you can literally just Google Cook political competitive races and look at the list. They got it right there.
It's google.com. Really easy to do.
Okay. That's it.

Speaker 1 Unless you have a parent corner, do you have anything you want to say? Any exciting news from the parenting front? Any life lessons? Any interesting things that have happened you want to share?

Speaker 1 It's okay if not.

Speaker 6 That I worked in this business for a long time. You know, I don't get bossed around easily, but my God, my almost two-year-old can boss me into doing anything.

Speaker 1 I bet. Is he saying anything yet?

Speaker 1 Oh, lovely.

Speaker 1 What's our recent words?

Speaker 6 Yesterday we had ladder. You know, you talk about fire trucks, but it's a lot of mama sit there, mama go night night there, ice cream, cookie too salty, cookie too spicy.

Speaker 1 I love you getting bossed around. This is great.

Speaker 6 Oh my God. He's a little tyrant, and I feel like I'm getting a taste of my own medicine.
But

Speaker 6 that's the latest.

Speaker 1 Well deserved. All right.
That's Liz Smith. She'll be back again soon.
Appreciate y'all for listening. Have a wonderful August weekend.
I hope you can enjoy some sunshine. Maybe a little pool.

Speaker 1 Maybe a little glass of rosé. And we'll see you back here Monday with Bill Crystal.
Peace. Bye, Liz.

Speaker 6 Bye, Jim.

Speaker 6 Passing the airplanes,

Speaker 6 reaching back to my street

Speaker 6 Superman

Speaker 6 Superman

Speaker 1 The Bullard Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 1 This is Matt Rogers from Lost Culture Eastas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture East with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.
Hey, Bowen, it's gift season.

Speaker 1 Ugh, stressing me out. Why are the people I love so hard to shop for? Probably because they only make boring gift guides that are totally uninspired.
Except for the guide we made.

Speaker 1 In partnership with Marshalls, where premium gifts meet incredible value, it's giving gifts with categories like best gifts for the mom whose idea of a sensible walking shoe is a stiletto.

Speaker 1 Or best gifts for me that were so thoughtful I really shouldn't have. Check out the guide on marshalls.com and gift the good stuff at Marshalls.
This is Martha Stewart from the Martha Stewart podcast.

Speaker 1 Hi, darlings. I have a little seasonal secret to share.
It's the new Kahlua Duncan Caramel Swirl.

Speaker 1 Kahlua, the beloved coffee liqueur, and Duncan, the beloved coffee destination, paired up to create a treat that is perfect for the holidays. So, go ahead, treat yourself.
Cheers, my dears.

Speaker 9 Must be 21 or older to purchase. Drink responsibly.
Kahlua Caramel Swirl Cream Liqueur, 16% Alcohol by Volume 32 Proof. Copyright 2025, imported by the Kahlua Company, New York, New York.

Speaker 9 Duncan trademarks owned by DDIP Holder LLC, used under license. Copyright 2025, DDIP Holder LLC.

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Speaker 1 Find your Zen.

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Speaker 8 Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.