Bill Kristol: Trump Is a Moral Monster

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Speaker 33 Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast.

Speaker 18 I'm your host, Tim Miller.

Speaker 33 We have a little special bonus segment in segment two today.

Speaker 1 Late on Friday, I talked to Stacey Williams, who I think has an interesting story as far as the victims of Trump and Epstein are concerned.

Speaker 56 She was not part of the child trafficking ring with Epstein, but she dated him when she was in her early 20s, briefly.

Speaker 55 And he took advantage of her in some really creepy ways that we discuss.

Speaker 60 But during that time, Epstein brought her to Trump Tower, where Trump sexually harassed her.

Speaker 35 So we get to hear her story and what she wants for the victims in segment two.

Speaker 62 So stick around for that.

Speaker 50 Some of you might have already heard that.

Speaker 56 We put it out on Bork Takes over the weekend. If you're not subscribed to the Bork Takes feed, definitely go check that out for more breaking news type stuff.

Speaker 58 But for the audio only, folks, it was a really touching interview.

Speaker 62 So stick around for Stacey Williams.

Speaker 28 But up first, it's Monday. So we've got editor-at-large of the Bork, Bill Kristol.

Speaker 6 What's going on, Bill?

Speaker 69 That was an excellent Stacey Williams discussion, both

Speaker 69 thought-provoking in terms of how close Epstein and Trump were, how Epstein behaved, sort of, as you say, she wasn't directly involved in the trafficking ring with Maxwell, but a sense of how that might have gotten going and also moving really to hear her.

Speaker 69 I mean, she's someone who came forward at some cost to herself, right? She was like Epstein's girlfriend. I mean, she's, but she lays it out in a very straightforward way.

Speaker 69 And it really, I mean, just part of a broader thing, the degree to which the whole thing is repulsive and the degree of closeness between Trump and Epstein, let's say in the woman-chasing category, and to some degree sliding down into at least Trump's knowledge of the girl exploiting child raping category, it's more than I realized even a month ago, right?

Speaker 69 And I sort of followed this stuff a little bit, you know?

Speaker 69 I mean, there's so many multiple cases where women are now talking about Trump and Epstein being together, joking about it all, to say nothing with the birthday card and everything.

Speaker 24 And I think the two most relevant elements of it are just one, kind of hearing from a victim about what they want, right?

Speaker 62 And that sometimes gets lost lost in all this.

Speaker 63 I think that that is important.

Speaker 54 In her case, talking about the kind of videotapes and wanting to know the truth about that.

Speaker 27 The other thing, to your point, is just

Speaker 52 the corroboration of the Trump and Epstein story is, I think, super important, you know, because

Speaker 6 essentially the story that Stacey tells is the same as what Maria Farmer told, who reported this to the FBI in 1996.

Speaker 75 I think, thanks for a commenter.

Speaker 71 I think I've misstated that there's so many Epstein victims here.

Speaker 64 Around the same time, there was another underage Epstein victim and I'd mixed her up with Maria Farmer.

Speaker 78 Maria Farmer was actually over 18, but even still, she was a victim of Epstein that like literally similar story, like brought by Tom Tower.

Speaker 64 They were creepy together and it was a couple years later.

Speaker 70 So it's not like this was a, you know, like a one-month friendship or whatever, like a very similar situation between these two victims. a couple years apart.

Speaker 24 So anyway, stick around for that.

Speaker 51 Bill, you kind of write this morning about the more the politics of this.

Speaker 53 You start by commenting on this Washington Post story this morning.

Speaker 59 It's getting a lot of attention with the headline, Trump fumes as Epstein scandal dominates the headlines.

Speaker 61 You write, I like the postmodern touch of having a headline about Trump fuming about headlines.

Speaker 70 Well, it made me chuckle.

Speaker 67 I kind of hate these stories because,

Speaker 54 you know, I don't know.

Speaker 72 Like, it's just, it feels like we're in, you know, one of these movies where things happen over and over again.

Speaker 71 You know, you can't, you can't, like, we're in Groundhog Day.

Speaker 63 Like, you can't get out of this. It's like for 10 years.

Speaker 43 So it's like, Trump is mad behind the scenes.

Speaker 84 And then Trump's people say it's fake news.

Speaker 61 And it's like, I don't know.

Speaker 42 These stories annoy me a little bit. But that said,

Speaker 59 I think you get into kind of why this is relevant from a political standpoint.

Speaker 69 Yeah. And I want to say, I was actually going to write more about what Tom Jocelyn and I discussed yesterday, what you discussed with Stacey Williams, the Maria Farmer story.

Speaker 69 I mean, just the substance of it and how grotesque it is, both the crimes and Trump's proximity to them and then the cover-up.

Speaker 69 But I was struck by the post story, and I thought, you know, maybe it's worth laying out a little bit why I think politically Trump is more vulnerable than he has been in other similar situations

Speaker 69 or than he would have been, I think, if they had just decided to stonewall and stuck to it, honestly.

Speaker 69 They did have a lot of backlash when they started to stonewall on July 6th and that rattled them, but they honestly, from their point of view, better off sticking to these things than starting to open the door a bit because now he's repeatedly.

Speaker 46 It was a provocative point, just really quick, that I hadn't really thought of.

Speaker 39 Actually, continuing to stonewall and just listening to Trump, you know, again, Trump does, for all the horrible traits traits he has, he has better political instincts than most of the

Speaker 62 consultant class and the people around him.

Speaker 87 And had they all sung from the hymn book that he did of like, it's over, we got to move on.

Speaker 86 Let's talk about Obama.

Speaker 60 They would be in better shape today, it's true, than their current situation.

Speaker 69 I think so. I mean, Bondi and the AG and the Department of Justice and the FBI have decided to do this.
I support that decision. It's over and we need to evolve.

Speaker 69 Yeah, there would have been grumbling and people would have said, oh, he betray us. And some people would have said that.

Speaker 50 He was still getting made fun of on the South Park and the Bro podcast and stuff.

Speaker 24 But like the

Speaker 54 advancing of the story would have potentially stopped.

Speaker 69 Yeah, and that's the key, I think, here, that when you get into a situation, they put out the video on the sixth, the prison video, just to have something to put out, I suppose.

Speaker 69 That turned out to have a three-minute gap.

Speaker 69 Then they decided, ooh, if we're getting beat up, well, we'll request the grand jury transcripts, which is nonsense, really, from a substantive point of view of what you're going to learn.

Speaker 69 And the judges aren't going to release them anyway. But that's like a gimmicky thing.

Speaker 69 But it sort of raises the question, well, if they want to to release that stuff, maybe there should be some other stuff they could release.

Speaker 69 Their own accounts that they're telling the media of how they did the search is that maybe only 10% of the thousand pages or 10,000 pages, whatever they are, should be released once you do all the redactions.

Speaker 69 Still, quite a lot of pages. Why aren't those being released? And then, obviously, the trip to Maxwell and okay, we're now he's now finding new information.

Speaker 69 And then the tweet, I guess, Blanche's tweet, Deputy Attorney General's post, social media post at the end about how, oh, stay tuned, more information to come, something like that.

Speaker 69 I mean, that just the key to a stone wall is to preserve the wall. You know, it's the key to a cover-up is to drop the curtain on the end the play.

Speaker 33 You know, not that we're giving advice on how to do a cover-up.

Speaker 3 No, just if we were.

Speaker 69 Whereas, whereas sort of teasing what's coming next, it just makes people interested out of kind of honestly, out of some people, I think, for desire for justice and for accountability and for transparency.

Speaker 69 And also, just kind of like, what's happening next? What's the next state? What's Act IV? You know, that was interesting in Act III.

Speaker 69 So, I think the Maxwell visit the more i've thought about it they'll get maybe they'll get the fake maxwell statement that trump wasn't involved maybe they'll get her pointing at other people maybe they'll do the deal but the degree to which it sort of opened the door to kind of what's next and and and invites the media to look much more at what's coming next and what's coming and get and invites people who are unhappy within the government, career people, presumably, FBI or DOJ, to sort of say, you know what, this thing is terrible.

Speaker 69 And we're going to point out that there is stuff in the files, like the birthday card. And maybe I'm being a little wishful thinking.
Maybe they'll now shut the door fine.

Speaker 69 You know, maybe this is after Act Four. They succeed and they all cover up and the curtain drops, but and the whole cover up and the curtain drops.

Speaker 69 But I do think they've given more than a little oxygen to the story. And now we've got a recess.
And don't you think Republicans in Congress seem rattled? Democrats seem a little energized.

Speaker 8 I want to talk about the August recess.

Speaker 50 Just one more thing, though, in the Maxwell meeting, because Andrew Weissman and I covered

Speaker 66 the discussion too yeah yeah yeah and i think he was really good on kind of the the legal side of this but it was after we taped that the uh maxwell lawyer came out and said explicitly which what we all assumed implicitly was that they want a pardon out of this or a commutation i don't know i i mean

Speaker 67 They were teasing that there's maybe a hundred names she could provide.

Speaker 68 How do you, what do you think about all of that?

Speaker 69 Just, and then you have Mike Johnson over the weekend saying, not only do I not think she needs a pardon, I think she'll be be in jail for longer than 20 years a rare agreement i have with mike johnson how do you think all that kind of stuff nets nets out do you have any thoughts on that i think it's bad for trump i mean i think a calling much more attention to maxwell who'd been a little bit relegated to the sort of sidekick of epstein and a lot of the early coverage if people haven't followed it very closely and i again would say i was a little bit in that category Now you have women talking about what a monster she was.

Speaker 69 She was really key to the whole enterprise. Oh my God.

Speaker 84 She's awful. Yeah.
And she's also in the room.

Speaker 88 Some of of the people that haven't paid attention that closely this, a lot of people don't realize.

Speaker 87 They even just think she was like the secretary or whatever.

Speaker 3 There's like a sexism.

Speaker 50 It's like this one that like organized when the girls come over, which is bad enough.

Speaker 15 I mean, she's in the room for some of the molestation.

Speaker 79 Like some of the, I mean, she is a really dark, depraved character.

Speaker 41 Yes.

Speaker 69 And there's Trump's deputy attorney general, also his personal defense lawyer, cordially yucking it up, apparently with Maxwell's lawyer, whom he also knows, and Maxwell.

Speaker 69 And I think no one else in the room, I've not gotten entire clarity. Do we have any reporting that there was any FBI agent or someone taking notes of this conversation?

Speaker 55 Or was it just what Andrew was talking about?

Speaker 42 And at this point, we do not.

Speaker 92 But it doesn't mean that that wasn't happening, but we don't right now.

Speaker 69 So I think they've opened the door to everyone to come forward and tell truthfully what a monster. She was,

Speaker 69 how monstrous the whole enterprise with Epstein was. Epstein, let's go back to that again.
She can say, well, Trump's just, she invited Trump, or Epstein invited Trump.

Speaker 69 She and Epstein invited Trump as one of 20 friends to contribute the birthday card. It is what it is.

Speaker 69 Of course, they've all, both Epstein and Trump have said many times what close friends there. They can't really pretend Trump wasn't hanging around with Epstein for those 15 years.

Speaker 69 And here's one point. I think this comes out implicitly in your conversation, but Jocelyn made this point well, I thought, in our little thing yesterday.

Speaker 69 Of course, Epstein had a million, knew a lot of people. He had parties, he had dinner parties, he played golf with people.
He was a big shot.

Speaker 69 And there are people who therefore didn't know, maybe didn't want to know, honestly, what he was really like, or maybe honestly, just didn't know anything. They invited to a party at Epstein's.

Speaker 69 There were other famous, distinguished people there, famous. They went to a dinner party.
That is true.

Speaker 50 I would just add one thing.

Speaker 70 There were some people that were doing this in like 2018, 10 years after he had been arrested. But anyway, totally agree.

Speaker 69 And even 2011 and after the 2008

Speaker 69 police bargain and slap on the wrist, the degree to which a lot of the stuff continues and revives, right? Isn't the whole Virgin Island thing post-2008?

Speaker 65 Not the whole thing, but some of it, yeah.

Speaker 69 Yeah, some of it. I mean, mean, it's terrible.
Anyway, I don't want to give any excuse to any of these people.

Speaker 69 Having said that, Trump is way not even plausibly in anything like that category of slightly unknowing golf buddy or business partner or

Speaker 69 Wall Street associate or some such thing. He is cheek by jowl, so to speak, with Epstein chasing women.
I mean, that's just explicit in public. Now, obviously, the underage question is open.

Speaker 69 We don't know. Maybe Trump was careful

Speaker 69 on that side. But again, the degree of proximity and the kinds of things they were doing together for 15 years.

Speaker 69 I mean, I just think that's sunk in in a way that I'm not sure it had. What do you think? Did it before the whole thing broke out? Did people know that? I don't know how much there was.

Speaker 87 This is one of those things where it's hard for me to separate because I thought everybody did.

Speaker 24 I don't know.

Speaker 70 I got an email from a reporter or a text from a reporter yesterday that he was sending me a pitch I had sent him back to my anti-Trump PR days from 2016 or maybe even 2015.

Speaker 35 It was nine or 10 years ago about the Trump and Epstein relationship.

Speaker 21 And he sends it to me and he's like, time is a flat circle.

Speaker 60 He's like, I was going through my old inbox and like, here's a pitch from you 10 years ago.

Speaker 48 So I knew. And I think that like

Speaker 53 people that paid a close attention to this knew, but I think now we're at a different level.

Speaker 65 I think it's safe to say now as far as people's awareness of it.

Speaker 69 Could you say it's to your credit that you pitched it?

Speaker 69 It's also interesting that you had to pitch it because that in a way, doesn't that suggest that you felt you had to pitch pitch it meant it wasn't front and center in the news, right?

Speaker 25 Yeah, yeah. It's a good point.

Speaker 75 He's talking right now.

Speaker 37 He's always talking, but as we're taping this, and so on Epstein, I had a couple of things I want to get to from earlier in this press conference, but just right now, a couple comments.

Speaker 28 It's a hoax.

Speaker 37 It's been built up way beyond proportion.

Speaker 64 The files were run by the worst scum on earth, Comey, Garland, Biden, and all the people that actually led the government, including the Autopen.

Speaker 40 The whole thing is a hoax.

Speaker 60 And then he goes on, I never went to Epstein's island.

Speaker 37 I never had the privilege of going to his island.

Speaker 60 That appears to be a direct quote.

Speaker 70 I haven't actually heard that, but I'm just getting this as it's coming across.

Speaker 70 Our guide, producer Jared, we should shout him out, hit a viral tweet over the weekend that was like, Trump has more pictures of Epstein than most people do with their grandparents.

Speaker 68 Kind of macabre, but did well.

Speaker 96 You can kind of tell that he doesn't think this is a big deal.

Speaker 42 I mean, like, beyond the cover-up part of it, right, like, isn't there, isn't there something that betrays, right, like if the strategy is, oh, we're going to, you know, get whoever, I'm not going to name random people's names, but like, we're going to get these other Democrats who are in these files and we're going to focus on them with a deal with Maxwell.

Speaker 87 That runs counter to the idea that it's a hoax, right?

Speaker 8 And it's hard to imagine that Trump's selling that.

Speaker 84 You can tell where Trump's heart is.

Speaker 8 Trump's heart is like, eh, this guy was kind of playing a little grab ass, and boys will be boys, and it's not that big of a deal.

Speaker 97 And I never went to the island, so don't look at me on the kids' stuff, but it seemed like a great island.

Speaker 31 You know, like that to me seems like where his heart is on this.

Speaker 68 And so it's hard to execute the other part of the plan when you're doing that.

Speaker 69 Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, just two points on that.

Speaker 69 So Blanche, the more I think about it, and prompted by what you just said, Blanche's comment, or Maxwell's lawyer's comment, I guess uncontradicted by Blanche, that they went over 100 names, Blanche spending eight hours, 10 hours with Maxwell.

Speaker 69 That's bad for them. That is to say, they shouldn't want other names.
I know they're tempted to go with Clinton and all this stuff and Democrats.

Speaker 69 The right way to do this, if you were doing the cover-up, not that you and I would be giving advice, but luckily they've already not done this, so it doesn't matter.

Speaker 69 Blanche should have gone, said, look, I spoke with Maxwell very briefly. She's a liar and a convicted sex offender, but I felt a due diligence.
There's been a bit of an uproar.

Speaker 69 You know, I asked her what she knows, and she wasn't forthcoming. There seems to be no more from her than there was already in the files.
Case closed. They did the opposite.
100 names?

Speaker 69 I think this thing can be kept alive until we see 100 names. And incidentally, that's very problematic.
They can't all literally be Democrats. That would be kind of crazy, right?

Speaker 69 And isn't there one of their main talking points? Not a talking point I like much. I think you've been critical of it too.
Oh, all these innocent people just get mentioned.

Speaker 69 It's just hearsay they should stick. That's a better place for them to sit.
We're not going to deal in here and say, I don't trust Maxwell. It's closed.

Speaker 69 You could have maybe used the Maxwell meeting as a way to reclose the door, so to speak, having opened it. Instead, he's now opened it wide.

Speaker 69 He's at odds with Trump, in a sense, who's saying it's just a hoax. There's nothing there.
That's a little untenable, I believe. I mean, Maxwell and Epstein were convicted.

Speaker 69 Epstein pled to serious crimes.

Speaker 69 The other thing about Trump, personally such a kind of moral monster, honestly, it doesn't even occur to him to preface these statements with a sentence or two about the victims.

Speaker 69 Every normal human being, every normal politician would say, would say, first, I want to say how terrible.

Speaker 21 Even the sociopaths would know that they had to fake it. You'd think?

Speaker 84 Like Trump has so far gone past that.

Speaker 15 Yeah.

Speaker 69 He really is, isn't he? I mean, there's not even a pretense of having any concern for these people.

Speaker 69 So what is the administration? Well, this is, I haven't, obviously, this press conference is happening as we're speaking, so I haven't thought about that part, but what is their line now?

Speaker 69 The files are a hoax or they're worth pursuing. Maxwell didn't do anything, or she's got 100 names of people that the Justice Department, the Trump's Justice Department has to track down.

Speaker 69 They really, I think my, I'm going to just say my little morning shots thing is this would add to the list of, you know, continuing the drama, so to speak.

Speaker 69 It's sort of like, let's, oh, go, there's another mystery. It's like watching a mystery.
I was watching a British mystery last night on TV on Britbox and stuff. It's sort of like another development.

Speaker 69 How does that fit in, right? You don't want, if you're running a cover-up to be kind of continually intriguing people with new developments.

Speaker 80 Just one more on just kind of this contrast between Trump, which again, I want to repeat what he said.

Speaker 55 It's a hoax that has been built up way beyond proportion.

Speaker 72 So that's where his stance is.

Speaker 39 Dan Bongino, the deputy FBI director, who has been

Speaker 60 one of the leading people talking about the need to uncover who all the pedophiles are in the Epstein files back when he was a competitor in the podcast space that is now at the bureau.

Speaker 87 And he put out this statement.

Speaker 26 He doesn't mention Epstein per se in this statement, but I want to read it just because the contrast in tone between hoax built up beyond proportion and where Bongino is is pretty stark.

Speaker 42 The director, Cash, and I are committed to stamping out public corruption and the political weaponization of both law enforcement and intelligence operations.

Speaker 43 It's a priority for us.

Speaker 95 But what I have learned in the course of our properly predicated and necessary investigations into these aforementioned matters has shocked me down to my core.

Speaker 46 We cannot run a republic like this.

Speaker 50 I'll never be the same after learning what I've learned.

Speaker 35 We're going to conduct investigations by the book.

Speaker 68 We're going to get the answers. We all deserve all caps.

Speaker 60 As with any investigation, I cannot predict where it will land, but we'll get the truth.

Speaker 70 I'll never be the same after learning what I've learned.

Speaker 67 It shocked me to the core.

Speaker 8 It could all be bluster, but again, this is the deputy FBI director.

Speaker 84 It's not like some random spokesperson. So maybe he's not talking about Epstein.

Speaker 87 Maybe he's trying to obliquely allude to Obama or some other thing.

Speaker 36 Who the hell knows?

Speaker 17 But this puts him in the same boat.

Speaker 84 Like, you can't say, oh, let's move on from whatever this is.

Speaker 84 It's like if you've seen things that are so shocking, you'll never be the same that you've got to, there's got to be a payoff at some point, right?

Speaker 69 I mean, I sort of assumed when I read that that he thinks he's referring to Obama and Russia and, you know, the Tulsi Gabbard stuff and all this. He's never seen such corruption by the deep state.

Speaker 3 So why not just say that then?

Speaker 69 Yeah, why not say it? And he leaves it ambiguous.

Speaker 69 And this line about

Speaker 69 these files are totally corrupted and it's who knows what Brennan and

Speaker 69 Comey and everyone put in them. I mean, that's asking for trouble also because there are a lot of people at the FBI who, whatever.

Speaker 69 their personal views about politics and so forth, probably don't like the idea that they went through these files or back in the day, they were involved in investigations that are totally fake and hoax and politically driven.

Speaker 69 I mean, the FBI did actually investigate, you know, Epstein and then Maxwell and indicted both of them. Justice Department indicted both of them.

Speaker 69 So he's trashing, he's now picking a fight with, you know, sort of hundreds of agents. And I don't know.

Speaker 24 That Van Gino is supposed to manage.

Speaker 64 A lot of agents are being run out.

Speaker 53 David Frum did a good podcast with Peter Strzok, I'd recommend from last week.

Speaker 58 And, you know, I spoke to Mike Feinberg about this.

Speaker 100 I think that the under-the-surface like amount of people bailing on the fbi over this i don't know that it's really sunk in with people like that like they're really losing folks at a at a pretty serious rate i was talking to somebody else who does kind of crime research about this yesterday hi i'm martine hackett host of untold stories life with a severe autoimmune condition a production from ruby studio in partnership with argenix this season we're sharing powerful stories of resilience from people living with mg and cidp Our hope is to inspire, educate, and remind each other that even in the toughest moments, we're not alone.

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Speaker 7 We the people, in order to form a more perfect union.

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Speaker 15 On the Democrats on Epstein.

Speaker 94 I didn't plan to do another 25 minutes on Epstein, but until Alex Acosta comes on this podcast, we're going to have no choice but to do that.

Speaker 61 Lauren Egan writes about the plans for this long recess and whether this is a usable issue.

Speaker 76 What do you think about this?

Speaker 84 I think at some level, this is like more of a getting people disillusioned with Republicans issue than it is something that the Democrats can really effectively rally around, but maybe that's wrong.

Speaker 57 What do you think?

Speaker 69 Yeah, no, I've been sort of, I can argue that one either way.

Speaker 69 I was saying to another friend last week, Democrats have been a little lame on this, and he said, I don't know, maybe it's better if they just stay out of it, honestly.

Speaker 69 I mean, if you have impartial reporters and women like Stacey Williams speaking up, isn't that better than making it just a normal and regular people going to town halls, you know, to pressure Republicans about this is better.

Speaker 53 It's funny to watch the progression.

Speaker 67 Like, I had Chris Murphy on, what, last Tuesday, and he was pretty good on this, but you can kind of tell that, like, he hadn't thought that deeply about like all the various like layers and talking points.

Speaker 59 And, you know, and Murphy's out there on a million issues.

Speaker 63 Like he's really good on the crypto thing.

Speaker 60 It's just natural.

Speaker 89 Right.

Speaker 116 And then I watched him talk about it again like Thursday or Friday.

Speaker 42 And, you know, he'd ratchet it up the rhetoric.

Speaker 97 And part of that is because of the news that had come out during the week, right? But moving it into full cover-up mode.

Speaker 72 And you do see that a little bit from Democrats. But maybe you're right.

Speaker 94 Maybe that's not even the most useful thing.

Speaker 69 I don't know how important it is that Ro Kana and Tom Essie are on TV together, but it's not nothing. And Kanas are pretty shrewd about this stuff sometimes, I think.

Speaker 69 I think the key is for the Democrats not to go around giving pompous speeches as Democratic members of Congress or as Democratic challengers, but letting citizens speak up. You know what I mean?

Speaker 69 They need to sort of behind the scenes, the associated super PACs and so forth, have to get people to go to these meetings if there are Republican town halls, or if not, go to Democratic town halls.

Speaker 69 But let's have people in the audience speak up,

Speaker 69 not the members of Congress.

Speaker 84 There's a Wall Street Journal poll over the weekend that had,

Speaker 81 I think Warning Schotts described it as the Democrats in shambles.

Speaker 87 33% approving of the party, 63% disapproving their worst showing since 1990, back in your day.

Speaker 65 That's like really your heyday, right there.

Speaker 69 I was on the Republican side, so I was happy about it.

Speaker 48 Yeah, that's what I mean.

Speaker 20 You were driving them down.

Speaker 50 It was Bill Crystal's machinations behind the scenes.

Speaker 69 It was so effective that Bill Clinton won the presidency two years later, which probably tells you something about these kinds of polls. But anyway, yeah.
That's a great point.

Speaker 9 Yeah. CNN

Speaker 68 had a poll that showed Dems,

Speaker 86 despite being very upset with their party, having way more enthusiasm at this point to vote in the midterms, which makes sense.

Speaker 55 I just think what we're learning basically from these polls is that Dem voters just don't think that the party is up for what they need to be up for when it comes to Trump.

Speaker 48 Independent voters still feel like Democrats are a little bit out of touch, and yet they're also very excited to have a check on Donald Trump at some level.

Speaker 94 So it might not actually matter, at least in the short term politically.

Speaker 73 I don't know.

Speaker 57 What do you make of that?

Speaker 69 Totally. Totally agree.
Some of those, that dissatisfaction with the party comes from Democrats who are dissatisfied that the party is not being more aggressive.

Speaker 69 They're not going to vote for Trump Republicans, however. So they're probably going to vote to check Trump.
What this shows is. Democrats, I don't know that they have a big 2026 problem.

Speaker 69 They may have other problems, but I don't think this shows a 2026 problem. That'll be a referendum on Trump.
They have a 2028 challenge, let's say.

Speaker 69 They're not a party that's really in great shape, that happened to lose one election and just ready to roar to the presidency. They need good candidates, and they need to generally

Speaker 69 have something of an overhaul by 27, 28.

Speaker 10 Kind of related to this, so there are two Senate announcements over the weekend.

Speaker 86 Roy Cooper, the governor of North Carolina, former governor, Democrat, is going to run for that Senate seat.

Speaker 63 It looks like against the chairman of the RNC, Michael Watley.

Speaker 4 It sounds like Lara Trump took a pass on that race, which is unfortunate for content's sake, if not for the country.

Speaker 95 Dan Osborne was the independent that ran in Nebraska against Deb Fisher.

Speaker 91 Did pretty well.

Speaker 6 I kind of had forgotten how close it was.

Speaker 88 So I pulled it up this morning.

Speaker 86 Deb Fisher was at 53 and Dan Osborne at 46

Speaker 80 in a Trump election year and in a 2024 general election instead of in a midterm election.

Speaker 57 So I think that that

Speaker 73 augurs that that's at least possible as a seat for it.

Speaker 69 Now he would be an independent to pick up so i don't know what uh both of those guys are kind of not in the traditional mold for democrats i mean roy cooper is kind of in an old school traditional mold of a southern democrat that doesn't really exist anymore what do you think about those announcements i like cooper and i just worry that there's quite a lot of history these ex-governors turning around to run for the senate they genuinely were popular governors they have to run for the senate it's a federal race it's who are you going to vote for for majority leader who you do you agree with the most radical member of the democratic conference in the Senate.

Speaker 69 And suddenly, these popular governors lose, right? That happened in Tennessee, didn't it, a few years ago? And other states, we've seen it happen, sort of. So I worry about that.

Speaker 69 But look, he should be a strong candidate.

Speaker 69 And he knows Medicaid extremely well. He expanded it in North Carolina.
And so that's going to be a big issue in 2026. He could really discuss it intelligently.

Speaker 69 It's hard to tell how much loyalty there is to him down there, but I think some. Yeah, I think Osborne's good.
They just need a lot of different candidates.

Speaker 69 I think Cooper cuts against this because he's unusually popular and skilled, I think, as a politician. Generally, I prefer to see

Speaker 69 non-politicians or non-career politicians or people with different backgrounds. I'm just going to put it that way, running.
But I think that you could have a wave.

Speaker 69 I mean, Paul Bagala and I, the Democrat run, I was on something with him. And he said he thought that intensity number mattered.

Speaker 69 He thought that in other cycles, that's really shown something.

Speaker 69 If Democratic voters want to vote 20 points more or care a lot about it by 20-point margin over Republican voters, that probably translates into something in an off-year election.

Speaker 70 Yeah, just one quick thing on both guys.

Speaker 33 The Cooper video, this is kind of a silly thing, but

Speaker 61 when somebody is obviously being recruited into the race that maybe doesn't want this job, a senator, that's another thing you've seen in these governors races.

Speaker 86 People feel like they have to get in and, you know, they're not that excited.

Speaker 87 Just figure skating, judging, his opening video,

Speaker 61 he looked like a person that had energy and was excited for the race. And whether that's true, I don't know.

Speaker 73 I haven't talked to Roy Cooper, but you can sniff it sometimes.

Speaker 60 Like, I've seen some introduction videos of, I don't know, my mind goes to Fred Thompson's presidential race where it's like, this person doesn't seem like their heart is in it.

Speaker 76 And I didn't get that from Cooper.

Speaker 57 So that's good.

Speaker 40 On Osborne, I just pulled this up.

Speaker 42 So Trump won Nebraska by 20

Speaker 6 and Fisher beat Osborne by seven.

Speaker 45 So he ran 13 points, you know, on net

Speaker 66 ahead of the party.

Speaker 20 That's not nothing.

Speaker 35 You know, that is very, and you've seen on some of the stuff, you know, you've seen these things where,

Speaker 60 you know, candidates and Senate races in particular end up kind of falling back to the mean.

Speaker 58 You saw this like Larry Hogan and somebody say, you think that they'll be better, and then it turns out that they kind of run just very slightly better than a generic Republican or Democrat.

Speaker 40 That wasn't the case for him.

Speaker 60 So I think that's notable.

Speaker 58 I'm going to try to get him on the pod.

Speaker 65 I think that's a very interesting race for everybody to monitor.

Speaker 101 Hi, I'm Martine Hackett, host of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a production from Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenix.

Speaker 104 This season, we're sharing powerful stories of resilience from people living with MG and CIDP.

Speaker 108 Our hope is to inspire, educate, and remind each other that even in the toughest moments, we're not alone.

Speaker 101 We'll hear from people like Corbin Whittington.

Speaker 104 After being diagnosed with both CIDP and dilated cardiomyopathy, he found incredible strength through community.

Speaker 113 So when we talk community, we're talking about an entire ecosystem surrounding this condition, including, of course, the patients at the center that are all trying to live life in the moment, live life for the future, but then also create a new future.

Speaker 115 Listen to Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 7 We the people, in order to form a more perfect union.

Speaker 11 These words are more than just the opening of the Constitution.

Speaker 14 They're a reminder of who this country belongs to and what we can be at our best.

Speaker 6 They're also the cornerstone of MS Now.

Speaker 20 Whether it's breaking news, exclusive reporting, election coverage, or in-depth analysis, MS Now keeps the people at the heart of everything they do.

Speaker 28 Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Saki, and more voices you know and trust, MS Now is your source for news, opinion, and the world.

Speaker 34 Their name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the truth you've relied on for decades.

Speaker 41 They'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions, and explain how it impacts you.

Speaker 45 Same mission, new name, MS Now.

Speaker 48 Learn more at MS.now.

Speaker 60 Going back to some actual policy stuff from Trump over the weekend and this morning, we have a EU tariff deal, if you want to call it that.

Speaker 77 There's a European economist I follow who described it this way. What was unthinkable a year ago is now the new baseline.

Speaker 25 I think that's important to say.

Speaker 40 A lot of the mainstream coverage of this this is like, oh, they got a deal.

Speaker 15 It's 15%.

Speaker 73 It's only 15% tariff with carve-outs, of course, for some things, of Trump buddies and semiconductor equipment, a couple of things.

Speaker 30 I do think that there's been a little bit of a frog boiling in water on all this sort of stuff.

Speaker 51 Like, had you gone to people in October and been like, we're going to have a 15% across-the-board tariff on Europe, I think everybody would have been like, that's crazy.

Speaker 81 That's far more than anything that we've had in recent times.

Speaker 95 And yet,

Speaker 60 because of how like radical Trump's initial proposals were, and because of the market, I think because the market has been relatively resilient, more than relatively resilient, really, people are just becoming a little sanguine about it.

Speaker 54 I don't know.

Speaker 72 What do you think?

Speaker 69 Yeah, and I think the markets think by cutting deals and these tariffs will be lower than they look like they're going to be because they'll be carve outs. And maybe that's right.

Speaker 69 Look, we're a huge economy, trades only 12, 13% or something like that of GDP. We can swallow some of this and

Speaker 69 take it, so to speak. Stan Voyger, our friend, the AEI economist, pointed out to me, we were talking about this Thursday, Friday.

Speaker 69 I was sort of saying, well, shouldn't the tariffs be having more effect? He said, you know, they are having a considerable effect.

Speaker 69 I think we'll get Wednesday second quarter GDP numbers, preliminary numbers, on Wednesday. So that will be interesting.
First quarter was mildly, slightly negative.

Speaker 69 Second quarter, they think maybe two point something. So that would average out to one and a half, let's just say.
We were growing 3% when Biden left. And that was the prognosis for 2025.

Speaker 69 People didn't think it was going to slow. So I think we are, you know, one percentage point isn't, you know, the Great Depression.
It's not dramatic.

Speaker 69 It's a lot of, it's a big difference, though, you know, if you go 2% to 3%

Speaker 69 in the real world. I mean, I kind of assume we end up paying more of a price for this than the markets now think, but obviously

Speaker 69 I could easily be wrong. The other point is, I mean, prices are going up on some items, though, a little more than mainstream world, than somehow the world is,

Speaker 69 given that Biden paid such a huge price for seven, eight, nine percent inflation in 2022, I believe Chris Turex has this little piece. I think we'll have in morning shots tomorrow.

Speaker 69 I think beef prices are up like, I don't know, more than 9% and hamburger steak and all this, just in the last six months under Trump, in Trump's presidency.

Speaker 69 One reason for that, I believe, is that some like insanely high percentage of the ground meat in the U.S. is imported from Brazil.
It turns out I was not aware of this.

Speaker 69 And we have big tariffs on Brazil because he doesn't like the fact that Bolsonaro is being tried.

Speaker 69 So I don't know.

Speaker 69 We're paying more for hamburgers and steak because Trump has this, he loves his fellow autocrat there in Brazil who tried to steal an election and it's being tried according to the laws of Brazil.

Speaker 69 I feel like some of that stuff has more potential than people realize.

Speaker 87 Yeah, and it's narrow.

Speaker 60 And the across the board kind of shock of the 8% or whatever it was during 2022, I think, was like real because people are just getting hit all over the place in their life versus this is like certain just certain products.

Speaker 60 I don't know.

Speaker 78 One of my, I don't know how many people are ordering sweaters from Europe, but one of my buddies did forward me an email about a shocking tariff price that he received.

Speaker 72 You know, do people actually vote on that or change their vote just because they ordered one thing and they're like, oh, oh, fuck, I had to pay 40 bucks on this that I didn't realize I had to pay something that I was ordering online.

Speaker 72 But maybe, I don't know.

Speaker 4 We're not really seeing it at this point.

Speaker 70 But that is annoying if it starts to happen a lot, I guess.

Speaker 93 Maybe one of those things, you're like, whatever.

Speaker 72 But

Speaker 57 if it starts to happen frequently, I do think that it could have an impact.

Speaker 69 It's funny, I heard a similar story about that. Someone who, I guess, if you order online, it's not like you buy something at a store and the store has already paid the tariff and marked up your item.

Speaker 69 So you can notice that your sweater is more expensive at whatever store you're going to, but it's, you know, literally pay the tariff yourself.

Speaker 69 Whereas I guess you do online, it's just, I says, you know, an extra, this case was like an extra $75 for the tariff for something from Canada.

Speaker 69 So, yeah, that could add up a little bit, don't you? I think.

Speaker 59 God willing.

Speaker 60 What the hell do I know? I'm just a podcast host.

Speaker 101 Hi, I'm Martine Hackett, host of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a production from Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenix.

Speaker 104 This season, we're sharing powerful stories of resilience from people living with MG and CIDP.

Speaker 108 Our hope is to inspire, educate, and remind each other that even in the toughest moments, we're not alone.

Speaker 101 We'll hear from people like Corbin Whittington.

Speaker 104 After being diagnosed with both CIDP and dilated cardiomyopathy, he found incredible strength through community.

Speaker 113 So when we talk community, we're talking about an entire ecosystem surrounding this condition, including, of course, the patients at the center that are all trying to live life in the moment, live life for the future, but then also create a new future.

Speaker 115 Listen to Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 7 We the people, in order to form a more perfect union.

Speaker 11 These words are more than just the opening of the Constitution.

Speaker 14 They're a reminder of who this country belongs to and what we can be at our best.

Speaker 6 They're also the cornerstone of MS Now.

Speaker 20 Whether it's breaking news, exclusive reporting, election coverage, or in-depth analysis, MS Now keeps the people at the heart of everything they do.

Speaker 28 Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Saki, and more voices you know and trust, MS Now is your source for news, opinion, and the world.

Speaker 35 Their name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the truth you've relied on for decades.

Speaker 41 They'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions, and explain how it impacts you.

Speaker 45 Same mission, new name, MS Now.

Speaker 48 Learn more at MS.now.

Speaker 60 I want to talk a little bit more about kind of the issues in Gaza and the hunger and the pictures that we've been seeing from there that are pretty striking tomorrow with our guest who wrote about this recently.

Speaker 80 This is another just massive issue for Trump.

Speaker 31 And in a weird way, it kind of,

Speaker 89 in a way that's a little awkward to talk about, frankly, it kind of intersects somewhat with the Epstein story because there is this populist right and left kind of anti-Israel that sometimes bleeds into anti-Semitism feeling.

Speaker 63 And like that is like part of the Epstein controversy for some people.

Speaker 86 And then some of them are very upset about what's happening in Israel.

Speaker 63 I mean, We talk about how the bro podcasters are mad at him about the Epstein thing.

Speaker 65 Most of those guys have spoken out on Gaza as well, too, right?

Speaker 70 So in a way that's a little bit uncomfortable, there is kind of an overlap between the stories.

Speaker 86 And Trump is like not in a good place in this.

Speaker 74 So here's Trump this morning on this.

Speaker 4 There's so much to talk about with this quote.

Speaker 90 It begins with a JD Vance comment about what is happening to the people in Gaza. We gave Gaza 60 million.

Speaker 60 Nobody even said thank you.

Speaker 53 Somebody should have said thank you.

Speaker 60 And then there's a follow-up question for a reporter, Netanyahu said there's no starvation in Gaza.

Speaker 77 Do you agree with that assessment?

Speaker 93 Trump, I don't know.

Speaker 60 I mean, based on television, I would say not particularly because those children look very hungry.

Speaker 70 A lot to talk about there, but I don't know.

Speaker 60 What do you make of all that?

Speaker 69 I mean, it's a good example. I don't know what to make of it.
Again, we'll see what he does, if he does do anything. It's been unclear

Speaker 69 what the administration thinks and what the administration's policy is. Trump's watching watching TV, I guess he doesn't have access to any intelligence reports of what's really happening there.

Speaker 69 He doesn't have access to

Speaker 69 actual proposals of what we could and couldn't do, what we could do with other international agencies.

Speaker 69 This is one reason you sort of want to be, I would say, just from a political point of view, leaving aside what's happening in Gaza, what really, really could and should be done, which I think is slightly complicated, but I think it's bad.

Speaker 69 I'm just saying that, you know, and Israel has not behaved well in this circumstance, and has some real responsibility and accountability. I mean, Biden got beat up from all sides, right?

Speaker 69 He pulled Israel back at times. The pro-Israel people didn't like him.
He let the Israel do things at times.

Speaker 69 Obviously, the pro-Palestinian people were annoyed at him. So you could say he picked out the rest of both worlds.
Maybe Trump's smart to just kind of keep it weirdly at a distance.

Speaker 69 But the other thing, one reason you want to be part of international organizations is you are doing things in concert with other nations.

Speaker 69 And you can say, look, we've all decided that we're going to get this stuff in in this way, this food in in this way. We're working very closely with all of our partners.

Speaker 69 Whereas Trump is Mr., you know, it's all about America. We just do whatever we want on our own.
We hate all these international organizations. We pulled out of half of them.

Speaker 69 I don't know. We're still in some of the food organizations and we're not in the health organization, I don't think.
So it's sort of, okay, are you doing anything or not?

Speaker 69 Now, I suppose from an America first point of view, not our problem, right? Starvation happens in the world. It's a tough world out there.
It happens in Africa. It happens in Gaza.

Speaker 69 And we're not in the business of being humanitarian, you know, goody-goody's. But that's hard to sustain, I think, for an American president, even an alleged American first president.

Speaker 69 And so, yeah, I don't know quite where it goes for him. But the watching TV is a pretty, is a pretty astonishing line, right? I mean, he's also in the UK, he's in Scotland, but he's wasn't

Speaker 69 part of the UK, I guess. Last I looked

Speaker 62 we're gonna get in trouble with some British, some Britain firsters, yeah.

Speaker 69 But Starmer is gonna have to raise it at the meeting. Uh, maybe they haven't, I think they haven't quite met yet, they're meeting today, and um, you know, it's more of an issue there, honestly.

Speaker 69 There, they've had big demonstrations and stuff. So, but the watching TV, that's really unbelievable in a way.
I hadn't focused on that until you mentioned it. U.S.
president.

Speaker 40 It's just like it's idiocracy.

Speaker 87 Like I'm getting that he's getting his news from cable TV.

Speaker 74 He's like an old man that's just

Speaker 42 watching his stories on TV and reacting rather than like a president who has real accountability and responsibility here, especially given how like he's closely he's tied himself to Netanyahu.

Speaker 7 I mean, it is one of those things like they had the option.

Speaker 91 To your point about the from the American first perspective, and I think, I think a decent number of people that voted for Trump thought this was what was going to happen.

Speaker 70 Maybe that was wrong-headed, but like Trump's kind of weird, you know, jello-like sort of policy pronouncements on the Middle East made the pro-Israel people feel like he was on their side, and like the right populace that want us to leave the region thought he was on their side.

Speaker 25 So I guess kudos to him for that political maneuver.

Speaker 55 But there's a decent chunk of people who voted for him that thought that Trump was just going to kind of be like Homer Simpson going back into the bushes on the Middle East and just kind of like, you all do whatever you want.

Speaker 64 That's not really our game.

Speaker 92 I'll do economic deals with the, you know, Sharia oil oligarchs and Saudi and Qatar, you know, getting planes out of the deal, that sort of thing.

Speaker 84 That's not what he's done.

Speaker 95 And he's worked very closely with Israel on various things.

Speaker 58 And so now just to be like, well, I'm watching TV, it doesn't really work

Speaker 4 as a whole, policy-wise.

Speaker 13 All right, well, the one positive maybe, Trump development, I want to close on something positive. How's that? Does that sound nice? No, it's bad.

Speaker 69 That's bad.

Speaker 12 But go ahead. Yes, that.

Speaker 71 It's positive both in the sense that Trump is being humiliated in this press conference with regards to his past comments on Putin.

Speaker 42 So that's positive.

Speaker 60 And it's positive in that he seems to be slightly continuing to move his policy slowly but surely.

Speaker 76 He said this.

Speaker 60 Putin goes out and starts launching rockets into some city like Kyiv and kills a lot of people in nursing homes or whatever.

Speaker 59 I'm disappointed in Putin.

Speaker 77 I'm going to reduce that 50 days that I gave him to a lesser number.

Speaker 60 I'm going to make a new deadline of 10 or 12 days from today, about two weeks.

Speaker 60 We just don't see any progress being made.

Speaker 87 Any green shoot there for you, Bill Crystal?

Speaker 69 I mean, it's better for the world or for the country than for Ukraine that Trump is ambivalent or uncertain about Putin than if he's 100% with him.

Speaker 69 I mean, just as a practical matter, he increases perhaps the chances of more aid for Ukraine, maybe for the sanctions bill, which I still notice hasn't been passed.

Speaker 69 And Trump still doesn't seem to quite be for, even though he keeps talking about it.

Speaker 69 So on the other hand, I mean, look, the best,

Speaker 69 he's going to be president for three and a half years. It's going to be bad.
It's going to be bad for the country and bad for the world. The best we can hope for, honestly, is

Speaker 69 inconstancy,

Speaker 69 you know, lack of really throwing in with the bad guys and sort of only being with the bad guys one-third or one-half the time and sometimes fearing against the bad guys because he gets annoyed at them and being sort of for the good guys and mostly not

Speaker 69 really doing as much damage as he might otherwise do. I guess we just have to, we do have to hope for that.
It's for the sake of people around the world, obviously.

Speaker 69 It's a weird thing, I've got to say, psychologically. I've never had this experience with an American president.

Speaker 69 I mean, there have been presidents I disagreed with a lot, you know, Obama's foreign policy at different times and stuff.

Speaker 69 But then you sort of, okay, I hope he changes his policy, or I hope Congress pressures him to change his policy, or I hope reality shows him that this policy was terrible, or minimally, we could all agree that, I don't know, not enforcing the red line was terrible and the next president won't do it.

Speaker 69 You know, you sort of have a way of handling a president you disagree with. Here, one ends up rooting for a kind of less bad outcomes over the next three and a half years.
And so I

Speaker 69 hope we act so that fewer people starve in Gaza, and I hope we act in ways that increase the chances of peace.

Speaker 18 But I don't know, it's hard.

Speaker 55 On the other hand, you would like him to utterly fail.

Speaker 118 I can give you Catholic dispensation on this.

Speaker 6 Doesn't matter what you're rooting for.

Speaker 69 It doesn't matter what I'm saying. But I mean, in this case, obviously, he just went to my.

Speaker 118 It matters what you're saying, but it doesn't matter what I'm saying.

Speaker 46 No, it doesn't matter what I'm saying.

Speaker 18 You know what I mean?

Speaker 116 You being unhappy that Donald Trump is

Speaker 75 doing something good

Speaker 40 does not matter, actually, actually, to the grand schedule.

Speaker 69 I can embrace that. I'm not entirely mostly unhappy even.

Speaker 69 But I would say, but just in terms of thinking about it, in the first term, one also could, in the first term of Trump, one could think, okay, I hope Mattis prevails on this.

Speaker 72 Sure.

Speaker 69 I hope Pompeo, I don't love, but whatever, I hope he prevails on that.

Speaker 69 Now you don't even have that, right? It is a weird, it's a weird thing to follow, but it does, the more he's got a bunch of ridiculous sycophants working from, the more it's all on him.

Speaker 69 I do think that's true. Like on this one, maybe you would take the position of, you know, you know what? This is very complicated.
The administration's working on it.

Speaker 69 Our guy who's got the lead on this is, I don't know, Rubio or some deputy secretary of state or some National Security Council number three guy.

Speaker 69 It doesn't have to be the number one guy, but someone, right? And that gives you a little deflection. It's all on Trump because it's all in his head, right?

Speaker 87 Well, the one thing that just comes right, I'm trying to get a...

Speaker 90 I have an America first kind of foreign policy guest in mind to want to kind of hash out a few things with because they're a little disappointed with Trump in various ways.

Speaker 16 It does portray

Speaker 70 just how bankrupt and how hard to execute that is.

Speaker 30 Like, it sounds nice, like, we're only going to care about ourselves, but just like listening to Trump tie himself into knots on the Middle East and on Russia, I don't know.

Speaker 64 We can maybe take some solace in that being revealed to be a very, a very shallow ideology that's hard to execute.

Speaker 40 All right, Bill Crystal, that was wonderful.

Speaker 90 Everybody, if you missed it on Friday, do stick around for Stacey Williams.

Speaker 81 But if you caught that already, if you're just kind of of a bulwark sicko listening to everything as soon as we post it, you can come on back tomorrow.

Speaker 31 We got a great guest coming up.

Speaker 36 We'll see you all then.

Speaker 25 Thanks, Bill.

Speaker 69 Thanks, Jim.

Speaker 55 Bye, everybody. Peace.

Speaker 101 Hi, I'm Martine Hackett, host of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a a production from Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenix.

Speaker 104 This season, we're sharing powerful stories of resilience from people living with MG and CIDP.

Speaker 108 Our hope is to inspire, educate, and remind each other that even in the toughest moments, we're not alone.

Speaker 101 We'll hear from people like Corbin Whittington.

Speaker 104 After being diagnosed with both CIDP and dilated cardiomyopathy, he found incredible strength through community.

Speaker 113 So when we talk community, we're talking about an entire ecosystem surrounding this condition, including, of course, the patients at the center, that are all trying to live life in the moment, live life for the future, but then also create a new future.

Speaker 115 Listen to Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 7 We the people, in order to form a more perfect union.

Speaker 11 These words are more than just the opening of the Constitution.

Speaker 14 They're a reminder of who this country belongs to and what we can be at our best.

Speaker 6 They're also the cornerstone of MS Now.

Speaker 20 Whether it's breaking news, exclusive reporting, election coverage, or in-depth analysis, MS Now keeps the people at the heart of everything they do.

Speaker 28 Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Saki, and more voices you know and trust, MS Now is your source for news, opinion, and the world.

Speaker 35 Their name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the the truth you've relied on for decades.

Speaker 41 They'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions, and explain how it impacts you.

Speaker 45 Same mission, new name, MS Now.

Speaker 48 Learn more at MS.now.

Speaker 40 Hey, everybody, Tim Miller from the Bull War here, and I'm grateful to be here with Stacey Williams, who last October, I guess, spoke out about an incident with Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump at the Trump Hotel many years ago that I bet you wish you weren't talking about still.

Speaker 71 Something that happened back in the 1990s, but I appreciate your courage in speaking out and coming here to talk about it a little bit.

Speaker 120 Thanks. Yeah, it's not a lot of fun,

Speaker 120 contrary to what some folks say, but like I said, it's really important. And I think also when I saw that Virginia died by suicide a few weeks ago, I thought, oh, you know, I can't just sit back.

Speaker 55 Yeah, for people who don't know, Virginia was one of the Epstein accusers.

Speaker 93 It almost feels a victim's, I guess, would be a much more accurate term.

Speaker 54 And

Speaker 80 I mean, maybe the most horrific of all of them.

Speaker 55 I guess maybe not, that's hard to, you know, want to compare, but her story was just particularly tragic.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 120 It was horrendous. Yeah.

Speaker 37 Well, for people who don't know and aren't familiar, let's just kind of contextualize what was happening here. And then I want to talk in particular, mostly to you, about kind of what

Speaker 94 victims and what other women in your shoes want out of this discussion about what the government should be doing with regards to Epstein.

Speaker 65 But to contextualize it, you were your swimsuit model in the 90s?

Speaker 15 Is that right?

Speaker 120 I think people call me that because I did the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue for like eight years and it was like some kind of record at the time.

Speaker 120 But I did, you know, El Vogue, Grunway, everything. I lived in Paris in New York.
I, you know, that's an important record. Yeah, I guess.
Yeah.

Speaker 118 I pretended as a closeted gay, I pretended to like the swimsuit edition.

Speaker 95 You know, I'd get it and, you know, sit around for a little while and, you know, I'd have it out in case, no, so nobody had any questions.

Speaker 81 But, you know, I didn't really linger.

Speaker 82 So I don't, I don't recall, you know, your eight-year run.

Speaker 120 Well, you know, what's funny is that I've met men over the years.

Speaker 120 I mean, I guess we're of the, if we're gen, I'm gen X, so you know, there are men who I think who are Xers who couldn't come out, and so many of them told me that I was their beard, and I'm so truly like deeply honored.

Speaker 120 They had posters, everything, so

Speaker 40 that's great.

Speaker 120 Uh, that was it's always been a great alliance.

Speaker 37 That was Natalie Portman for me. Thank you, Natalie.

Speaker 20 Um, anyway, Stacey, the uh

Speaker 3 how dare dare you.

Speaker 48 Sorry.

Speaker 9 Different elder millennial version.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 22 So during that period, I guess you had a brief period where you were dating Jeffrey.

Speaker 116 How did that even come to pass?

Speaker 93 Like, and how long was it?

Speaker 55 And, you know, what was just sort of the circumstance?

Speaker 120 So I was introduced to Jeffrey by my agent at the time, Faith Cates, who owns Next Models.

Speaker 44 And thanks for nothing, Kate.

Speaker 12 Faith.

Speaker 120 You know, all those agencies, they, you know, they hosted a lot of dinners with models and powerful men. And so

Speaker 120 she got, you know, it was a night, she said, let's, you know, we're getting a group together for dinner on the Upper East Side. And I went and Jeffrey was there.

Speaker 120 And the interesting thing about Jeffrey, which is so funny, it'd be like, well, you know, he's such a creep, obviously. He's like the most renowned, you know, scumbag on the planet.

Speaker 120 But at the time, he was one of the few men who just looked me in the eye and had a political conversation with me and didn't condescend.

Speaker 120 And that's, I think that's why, you know, I got interested in him and why, you know, we engaged and it went from there. And then

Speaker 120 kind of forgot about it, though, didn't exchange numbers or anything.

Speaker 120 And a couple of months later, Donald Trump had, you know, he owned the plaza at one point, the hotel, and he was throwing a Christmas party at the plaza.

Speaker 120 And again, Faith said, you know, I think we had like three parties that night and we were just being festive and having fun getting dressed up for reasons other than being photographed and enjoying the season.

Speaker 120 And we went to the plaza and, you know, Donald was there and he walked me over. He's like, you know, Jeffrey, right? And yeah.

Speaker 120 So that's then at that moment, we talked longer and I gave him my number and we dated after that for a few months. You know, I was traveling.
I was very busy.

Speaker 120 And so it wasn't like, you know, we were seeing each other seriously for months.

Speaker 120 I mean, it was a period of four months and I was traveling and it took a while to, for all the little data points to line up about how utterly batshit crazy everything was.

Speaker 120 And then I was, and then I was out. You know, then I was like, yeah, I'm done.
This is insane.

Speaker 117 The incident in question that you kind of spoke about last time was, I guess, during that three to four month period, Jeffrey took you to Trump's office.

Speaker 34 And it's particularly noteworthy because it's a similar story to what Maria Farmer told to the FBI in 1996.

Speaker 64 Like, so that would be then two years later, three years later.

Speaker 60 She's underage at the time.

Speaker 89 So even creepier and worse in a lot of ways.

Speaker 120 But absolutely. But it's interesting.

Speaker 22 Like, it's sort of a corroborating type thing because the story is similar.

Speaker 60 Like, I guess that he, you went by his office at Trump Tower.

Speaker 89 So I don't know.

Speaker 72 Talk about that.

Speaker 120 Yeah, we were taking a walk. We met at, he was living in a brownstone on the upper east side.
I don't think it's the same one that got raided.

Speaker 120 I don't know, but it was a very large, very fancy brownstone with butlers and multiple floors and everything. And that's where we would meet.
And then we would take walks. And

Speaker 120 we were walking down Fifth Avenue one day. And he said, you know, I'd already met Donald a couple of times over the years.
And he's like, oh, yeah, Donald keeps talking about you.

Speaker 120 And let's stop by and say hi. And then that's when the incident happened.
We went up and he groped me and Jeffrey and Donald kept talking while he groped me and I froze. I was in shock.

Speaker 120 And then Jeffrey got angry and berated me for allowing him to do it afterwards. And it's a laugh because it's so insane.
Sorry. And yeah.

Speaker 120 And then, and it was not long after that that I, you know, I said, I can't, I can't do this. In fact, I very, I said to him, I said, you need, you need to see a psychiatrist.

Speaker 120 Something's seriously wrong with you.

Speaker 40 He got angry at you.

Speaker 117 To me, and again, who the hell knows was people how to get inside the brains of somebody as sick as him?

Speaker 82 But like, it does feel like, again, we get the other data point of where he brought Farmer there a couple years later, and then she ends up bringing that up to the FBI.

Speaker 15 And like, the fact that he wasn't mad at Trump and that they continued to have a relationship, right?

Speaker 65 And that he's mad at you, I kind of indicates that some, that there's some kind of, I don't know, whether it was a game or some kind of whatever. I don't know.

Speaker 120 It felt like it. Yeah, it felt like it.
I mean, I had detailed to jeffrey

Speaker 120 that i had a bit of a reputation in the industry for being combative um in the industry with the predators that were in the industry as well as the guys on the streets and i mean i have friends have reached out to me and said remember that time you like beat the shit out of that that guy in paris

Speaker 120 you know, and maced him or whatever. It's like, you know, love that.
I was in full combat mode in those days. And so, and I had told that to Jeffrey.
I remember telling him that.

Speaker 120 It was on my mind a lot because, you know, I was living in a war zone.

Speaker 120 It was such a wild west, you know, back then, like 13-year-olds modeling, you know, there's like, you know, now, now you get booked for a job, you're 13 years old, and there's like a tutor on set and there's, you know, all kinds of oversight.

Speaker 120 It was truly the wild west. So

Speaker 120 we were really unprotected. And so he knew that.
I would download, I downloaded that to him. And so I think he, and I could be wrong, but I think he was so angry because I was walked in.

Speaker 120 I think he told Donald that, you know, I was one person who wasn't going to let him get away with the handsy stuff.

Speaker 120 And I did because of the way, you know, like I said, it everything he does is hidden in its brazenness, right? So if I'd been in a dark alley.

Speaker 120 And I had been in the past or a subway or something where someone's grabbing me or being inappropriate, I fight back. I get out the mace or whatever.
And I had some self-defense classes.

Speaker 120 But, you know, in broad daylight with an assistant going back and forth, you're like, this can't be happening. I mean, it's somewhat kitty Genovese-esque, right? Which is,

Speaker 120 yeah, it's relevant to that, where like, as long as everyone looks around and the room's filling with smoke and it's like, well, no, there's nothing, you know, no one's moving.

Speaker 120 So everything must be okay. It's akin to that.
So I froze. And, and, and so that's why it felt like it was very much an arranged kind of situation and why Jeffrey got mad.

Speaker 120 Who knows what, you know, whether it was a bet and he lost money. I have no idea.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 42 Hidden in his brazenness is very well put.

Speaker 89 I mean, it's like, I know it's his political strategy about a lot of his law

Speaker 83 breaking, but like, yeah, but also just like the access Hollywood tape, and he admitted it, he tells you what the strategy, he says, I just, you know, gravel.

Speaker 116 Ugh, the interesting thing with the, on the Trump side of it is just that, like, it just, who knows if it's a game or whatever, but it shows a comfort and like a, some, a, some kind of, you know, tonight friendship romance, right, where they, where this kind of stuff happens, right?

Speaker 82 And like, and that for Jeffrey to be mad at you, right, shows that like that in their relationship,

Speaker 55 that type of behavior is accepted and common.

Speaker 93 Yeah.

Speaker 120 Yeah, they were not mere acquaintances. Yeah.

Speaker 117 So to the Jeffrey side of it, all this stuff gets wrapped up in the politics, right?

Speaker 93 And particularly now, and it's like, you know, why do people want to see?

Speaker 60 It so sucks.

Speaker 37 Like, why do people want to see this? It's like, not because they care.

Speaker 6 You know, that's because they want accountability for the criminals because there are other criminals besides Jeffrey Epstein and Jillian Maxwell here.

Speaker 89 Yeah.

Speaker 97 They're other perpetrators and collaborators.

Speaker 58 So at some level, some people wanted that, but then it sort of gets warped and molded into, well, we want to see it because it might hurt so-and-so.

Speaker 81 And we want to see it.

Speaker 17 So from your perspective, like,

Speaker 97 what do you want to see? Right. Like, what is, what would be the value of this? Like, what would be useful?

Speaker 120 So

Speaker 120 one of the things that's been sort of nagging is that there was a point, and this was kind of like the very end for me when I stopped dating Jeffrey, when he looked at me and said,

Speaker 120 I have,

Speaker 120 you know, video of you undressing in a bedroom in the brownstone. And it's, it was something along the lines of it's the most beautiful thing I own, or it's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.

Speaker 120 And

Speaker 120 that just,

Speaker 120 you know, that was when there were, I mean, being groped, you know, being led into Donald's office to be groped by him was bad enough.

Speaker 120 And I probably was young enough and confused enough where maybe I was still questioning. But when he said to me, I have video view undressed in a bedroom in my house.

Speaker 120 And it's my, I was, I, I just, it was so creepy and so dark.

Speaker 120 And so,

Speaker 120 you know, I've wondered ever since, where is that video? Was he lying? Does it exist? I know everyone's very focused on lists, right? You know, where are the lists?

Speaker 120 But my question is, you know, what's in all those files that the government has, the DOJ has, and, you know, is there video of me? I'd like to know if it exists.

Speaker 120 I think I speak for all the other, you know, victims who have come forward and wonder if there's video of them.

Speaker 120 I think we'd like to know, absolutely, there's no video or, or there is, and this is where it is. You know, we just want more answers to have that just floating out there.

Speaker 120 And then when I saw Alan Dershowitz's piece about how, no, no, no, there were just, you know, videos for security reasons.

Speaker 120 I thought, well, that completely flies in the face of what Jeffrey said to me. That doesn't line up.
So I have a lot of questions. And I'm sure, you know, the other, the other victims, too.

Speaker 120 So I do believe that the government owes all of us some facts and confirmation that videos exist. I mean, I certainly wouldn't want any victims exposed if there's a video of them being abused.

Speaker 120 But we need to get beyond the list, I think, and we need to hear about those videos. I want to know.

Speaker 45 I mean, for closure purposes, just like, you know, and yes, yes.

Speaker 120 Well, I mean, like, you know, there were these, you know, horrible acts perpetrated on women and girls. The government's

Speaker 120 interviewing the trafficker.

Speaker 120 I'm like,

Speaker 120 the government is interviewing a trafficker.

Speaker 97 Maybe cutting a deal.

Speaker 120 Maybe cutting a deal. Who knows? But, you know, I think like there is nothing transparent about this.

Speaker 120 And we'd like some more transparency as victims. And the government owes us that.

Speaker 120 What is the Department of Justice for? The word justice means you don't interview the trafficker, you interview the victims, right? Or be honest with the victims.

Speaker 116 Justice for the people, not for Donald Trump, right?

Speaker 119 Top Lanchez and his personal lawyer.

Speaker 120 And pedophiles are, you know, people who are doing terrible things to women and girls. Yeah.

Speaker 82 On the videos, just one more kind of point about this, because something I've been thinking about lately is that you mentioned that Dershowitz's explanation is it's security footage, right?

Speaker 37 Well, Vance, it's a private conversation.

Speaker 117 So some Imaga podcaster said this, but he said they had dinner together.

Speaker 75 There's no reason to believe he'd be making this up.

Speaker 97 And he said that he asked Vance about the videos, and that Vance says that it's commercial porn, that they don't have actually private secret videos.

Speaker 15 And it's like, okay, I don't, who the hell knows?

Speaker 13 I don't, I don't know.

Speaker 75 And that seems extremely unlikely that Jeffrey Epstein, who is committing hundreds of sex crimes and had lots of video cameras in his house, wanted commercial porn instead.

Speaker 48 But like,

Speaker 81 who the hell knows with this guy?

Speaker 71 But you know, it shows that they're telling all these different stories, and there's no like transparency about what the what the truth is with either the public or the victims.

Speaker 120 Yeah. Yeah, it's awful.
I agree. And there are a lot of victims, right? I mean, I don't understand it.
And as for the Vance quote, I mean,

Speaker 120 it wouldn't surprise me if there was, if he had everything, you know, he had a collection of everything. We just want answers.
There's no transparency. There's none.

Speaker 120 And again, to go to think that you're going to clear all this up by interviewing the trafficker, the convicted trafficker? That's the solution? Are you kidding me?

Speaker 120 You have to laugh at this.

Speaker 117 Just before we sat down, she said that she has information, that she's given them information on 100 people.

Speaker 12 And I don't know, you know, okay.

Speaker 28 There certainly are a lot more collaborators out there and co-conspirators, but like...

Speaker 15 I would think, yeah.

Speaker 48 But what would be the deal?

Speaker 22 But there can't be any deal for Jelene Maxwell.

Speaker 83 I mean, this was the person that was the ringleader of all of it.

Speaker 72 So that's not justice.

Speaker 120 One would think, but, you know, we are so far past,

Speaker 120 I mean, like truth. We're so post-truth and everything is so the, you know, we're in the upside down.
So I mean, nothing would surprise me, but that would be truly horrific.

Speaker 120 I can't imagine anyone could stomach her getting out, but, you know, we'll see. All of us still need transparency.
And if there are videos, you know, as per what Jeffrey said to me, I want to know.

Speaker 95 There's two other random things that come in.

Speaker 33 I'm just curious. So So like you,

Speaker 67 you came out, you talked about this, I guess, the first last year before the election.

Speaker 31 Was it,

Speaker 71 I mean, at that point, you could have just wanted to move on with your life.

Speaker 93 And was there something in particular that prompted it or that made you feel like you needed to say something?

Speaker 120 Yeah, the possibility of him winning. I don't want the guy who sexually assaulted me in the White House.
And I know that, you know,

Speaker 120 his campaign tried to spin it as, you know, oh, you know, a week or so before the election.

Speaker 120 And, you know, just to be clear as to how that happened, I am in a documentary that is out on the, on the, on the festival circuit right now about, you know, the woman who founded the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue and how she, it's, it's actually a feminist story, believe it or not.

Speaker 120 It's a fantastic film. It's called Beyond the Gaze about how she was treated as the first female editor at Sports Illustrated and that old boys club and how many glass ceilings she broke.

Speaker 120 And then when she had like literally saved the magazine, she

Speaker 120 went to her boss and asked for a raise because she couldn't afford child care. And he said, you have a husband.
You don't need a raise.

Speaker 120 And she, you know, at one point, that was when I was doing it. I did it, I guess, eight years in a row.
That was the most, at the time, that was the most lucrative brand in publishing history.

Speaker 120 I think it was the first time anyone could charge $2 million per advertising page. It was at its peak, right? Wow.
So that's the story of the documentary.

Speaker 120 So I got to know this crew that, you know, I shot with them constantly and we had a conversation. And it was the first time I felt comfortable enough to disclose what had happened.

Speaker 120 And then it took two years to edit. It was only supposed to take a year, but that's how, you know, the filmmaking goes.
And cut to the premiere is a week before the election.

Speaker 120 And I had to let lawyers know and everything. I said, look, you know, this is coming out.
They left this in where I say what did. And we're a week before the election.

Speaker 15 Oh, it's in the dock. It's in the dock.

Speaker 120 And that's the first time I ever publicly disclosed.

Speaker 120 That's how I ended up, you know, doing all the media and everything right before the election because I thought, you know, to have it out there hanging without any context a a week before the election, like I need to

Speaker 120 get a handle on this and

Speaker 120 talk to people and everything. So that's how that happened.

Speaker 120 But then, you know, the timing of it looked to the conspiracy, conspiracist-minded, looked like it was set up to happen right before the election or something.

Speaker 120 So, yeah, that's, that's how I decided, you know, people had urged me to do it for years.

Speaker 120 They said at the very least, and I have other friends who are victims and who haven't come forward and some who have. And we all talk about it.

Speaker 37 Trump or other people.

Speaker 120 Other, other people in in the industry.

Speaker 120 A lot of them are out there, very public about it. Some aren't.
And so, you know, so many have come forward since me too. And I have always been uncomfortable about doing it.

Speaker 120 I chose to become anonymous and disappear and go into a different space once I was done with my modeling career. I didn't, I turned down reality and television movies and all that stuff.
And my

Speaker 120 underground and became a low, I became a low-level Gray Davis appointee when I was 26. And like, I had a totally different path, I had start volunteer, a completely different path in life.

Speaker 120 And so, and I love my private, quiet, you know, as my friends call it, your old spinster life. Yeah.

Speaker 120 So, so,

Speaker 120 but I, I decided it was time I felt comfortable enough. And then I let him, and then it just blew up.
And, and then I realized that it was really important for me to do.

Speaker 93 So crazy. I know.

Speaker 60 I just, I feel bad for all of you.

Speaker 75 And I talked to Gene about this and other victims, but going back to 2016, right?

Speaker 93 There were a bunch of folks that came out after Access Hollywood.

Speaker 97 And it's like, to come out like that and then have like it almost, it isn't, but I could see how it might feel like it's like the American people are like rendering a judgment on your story like we don't care basically you know yeah and that's so tough

Speaker 120 I just can't imagine oh it's really tough I mean I had actual family members who were QAnon because I'm from rural PA remember so I had actual family members yell at me and call me bitter and it's it's been brutal I mean it's just this country's been savaged and it's just it doesn't look like there's any end in sight and it's deeply personal for all of us who you know went through it so i appreciate you coming out i'd be remiss if i didn't just ask you because that's just curiosity killed the cat and i'm i can't how do you think he had all that money jeffrey and you were with him for three or four months but do you have any did he did he talk to you about that do you have any theories of the case like where his money came from it was always so vague you know it was like i never asked him directly i mean look i was around um

Speaker 120 Saudi prince, you know, I mean, the access, the access that you have as a young, like teenager because you're this biological accident is absurd when you think about it, right?

Speaker 120 Like I'm in the back rooms with politicians and billionaires and Saudi princes and everything simply because my parents had sex one night. It's so ridiculous.

Speaker 120 And so it was the norm that I'd be around wealthy, powerful men. His was always a lot more confusing because that, you know, that was a lot of wealth.
And I still don't understand it.

Speaker 120 I don't, that's another thing that would be nice. I think Senator, the senator from Oregon is looking into.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 120 And I'll also say that, you know, Adam Davidson, who I got to know through his podcast years ago, was a fantastic journalist.

Speaker 120 I think, you know, he actually has written about some of the linked up some of the money stuff. But yeah, I don't,

Speaker 120 I have no idea. I wish I knew.
I think we all need a lot of answers.

Speaker 119 We do indeed. All right.

Speaker 50 Well, thank you, Stacey, so much for talking about this. I appreciate it.

Speaker 83 We didn't know each other before this, but I've been mentioning you this week because I keep getting texts.

Speaker 72 Okay, good.

Speaker 50 Well, thank you.

Speaker 19 friends yeah everyone loves you well good i appreciate that and i and i appreciate that um that uh i i when i got a text from your uh for your pr person they're like see and i was like oh i hope everything i've been saying is right you know i didn't want to get in trouble but i kept going great yeah i kept being in the media and people would be like well just because his name is on the list doesn't mean he did anything wrong they're like what are you talking about like Many women have said that he sexually harassed or assaulted them.

Speaker 97 And specifically within the context of Epstein, women have, and you know, including yourself.

Speaker 84 So, I mean, it's just an important distinction.

Speaker 120 Yeah. No, I really appreciated that.
Yeah. You feel like, you know, I feel like, you know, you feel like you're screaming into the void sometimes.

Speaker 120 And the fact when this, this, you know, this happened, it blew up a little bit around the election and then it was quiet.

Speaker 120 And then once this started heating up again the last few weeks, again, like you said, everyone's like, well, just because they were in a photo. I'm like, what?

Speaker 120 Why did I get an ulcer in November? You know, what a crazy story. So, yeah, thank you.
I appreciate it, really. And it's true.
There are a bunch of us.

Speaker 120 And, you know, like, I feel like, you know, people say this, but for everyone that comes forward, like, you know, it makes someone else feel comfortable to come, you know, enough to come forward.

Speaker 120 So that's a good thing. So, thank you.

Speaker 3 Really, thank you, Rio.

Speaker 80 Honestly, I'm doing nothing.

Speaker 117 I'm just flapping my jaw. Thank you very much.

Speaker 66 I really appreciate you.

Speaker 119 And everybody else, thank you for joining us on the feed. Subscribe.
We'll be talking to y'all soon.

Speaker 3 Peace out.

Speaker 3 Cover up. Cover up that you're ruthless.
Nobody, nobody, nobody's ever gonna notice.

Speaker 3 And I am catching up, and I am seeing red.

Speaker 3 How about I prove I'm right and raise it overhead? I never promised you anything I couldn't do.

Speaker 3 We try to bury it and rise above,

Speaker 3 bury it and rise above you. Yeah, oh, you never promised me.

Speaker 3 You see it differently. Bury it and rise above,

Speaker 3 bury it and rise above you. you.
We bury it, bury it, bury it, and rise above. We bury it, bury it, bury it, and rise above.

Speaker 3 Reaching, reaching for, reaching for my resistance.

Speaker 3 Nobody, nobody, nobody sees it at a distance.

Speaker 3 And I am catching up, and I am seeing red.

Speaker 3 How about I throw my weight and raise it overhead? I never promised you anything I couldn't do.

Speaker 3 We try to bury it and rise above,

Speaker 3 bury it and rise above you, you.

Speaker 3 You never promised me,

Speaker 3 you can see it differently. Bury it and rise above,

Speaker 3 bury it and rise above you, you. We bury it, bury it, bury it, and rise above.
We bury it, bury it, bury it, and rise above. We bury it, bury it, bury it, and rise above.

Speaker 3 We bury it, bury it, bury it, and rise above.

Speaker 33 The Board Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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