Brian Beutler: Time to Pop Off, Dems

Speaker 1 There's nothing like sinking into luxury. Anibay sofas combine ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price.

Speaker 1 Anibay has designed the only fully machine washable sofa from top to bottom. The stain-resistant performance fabric slip covers and cloud-like frame duvet can go straight into your wash.

Speaker 1 Perfect for anyone with kids, pets, or anyone who loves an easy-to-clean, spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slip covers, you can customize your sofa sofa to fit any space and style.

Speaker 1 Whether you need a single chair, love seat, or a luxuriously large sectional, Anabay has you covered. Visit washable sofas.com to upgrade your home.

Speaker 1 Sofas start at just $699 and right now, get early access to Black Friday savings, up to 60% off store-wide, with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Shop now at washablesofas.com.

Speaker 2 Add a little

Speaker 1 to your life. Offers are subject to change, and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 2 AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed.

Speaker 3 But agents make mistakes.

Speaker 3 Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice.

Speaker 3 Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails, and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation at rubric.com.

Speaker 3 That's r-u-b-r-i-k.com.

Speaker 2 Hello, and welcome to the Buller podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
Delighted to welcome you back, co-host of the Politics with an X podcast with Matt Iglesias.

Speaker 2 He also writes the Off-Message Substack newsletter. Was it Crooked Media before, the New Republic, and other lib outlets.
And he has a great article.

Speaker 2 Whenever I read a great newsletter from someone that I agree with 100%,

Speaker 2 I'm like, they must come on the podcast so I can have my priors affirmed. It's Brian Boytler.
How you doing, man?

Speaker 4 I'm good, but it makes me think that it's been like a year and a half since I wrote something that you fully agreed with. And that kind of hurts my feelings.

Speaker 2 That is not true, actually.

Speaker 2 When I texted you about how good it was, I noticed I had done similarly a couple months ago, but it just wasn't a podcast-worthy agreement. Fair enough.

Speaker 2 This agreement was like, I am engorged by how much I agree with this, and we must podcast on it. All All right, I will swing for the podcast.

Speaker 2 So I apologize to my mother-in-law for that. The article is Jeffrey Epstein, Trump Care, and the Influencer Problem.

Speaker 2 And I want to get into the Epstein stuff with you and a bunch of other issues in micro.

Speaker 2 But first,

Speaker 2 the macro point that you're making is something I've been talking about a lot that I just, I think that is hard to just kind of process for like the Democratic strategist class and politicians a little bit, is this.

Speaker 2 Your subhead is, what if the people Democrats want to reach aren't terribly interested in policy per se?

Speaker 2 You go on, we should come to a tension, a pretty severe one, between the Democratic Party's desire to contest election on safe ground like healthcare policy and the new consensus that reaching marginal voters will require with engaging the online influencers and pop culture figures those voters admire.

Speaker 2 This is right. I think I ask pretty much every Dempal that comes on the show about this.

Speaker 2 How to navigate this? Like, is the problem with reaching these voters policy actually, or is it something else? So why don't you talk about it at the top level?

Speaker 4 Funny enough, it's like

Speaker 4 it relates to what we were kind of joking around at the outset about: is that if you're if you're a podcast host, like you are, you have to select your guests.

Speaker 4 And part of what you do when you're selecting your guests is like thinking, like, who can talk about a wide range of issues or about the issues that I want to care about?

Speaker 4 And if you survey the landscape and the politicians in the Democratic Party have made clear in all their public statements, what we want to talk about is healthcare.

Speaker 4 If you bring up a subject that isn't healthcare, we're going to say, but you know what? That's a distraction from the issue that really matters, which is healthcare.

Speaker 4 They're going to be kind of disinclined to want to bring you on because you can't fill three hours of Joe Rogan's show with, I mean, I guess you could.

Speaker 4 It would just be really boring, and people would, you know, would talk about what's in the Trump care bill.

Speaker 2 And so reimbursement rates, you don't think you could do 40 minutes on that on Rogan? Just got a

Speaker 2 chief of blunt, kind of get deep with him on the different reimbursement rate rules,

Speaker 2 different states.

Speaker 4 Yeah, FMAP. Like just, you know, you have a, you have a politician be like, and then the F map, and like they won't even think to explain what F map is.

Speaker 4 At which point, like half the audience is tuned out.

Speaker 4 And, you know, I think it would behoove Democrats to like actually think about what they mean when they talk about this problem they have, reaching young voters, reaching the audiences of people who are like consuming lots of new media, almost none of which is about policy, and what it would take for them to like become Sympotico with that universe and how that's not a good fit.

Speaker 4 It doesn't really match with their other theory, which is that if we're just normal, turn down the volume, talk about the issues that matter in people's economic lives, then people will realize we're not scary and they'll give us a chance.

Speaker 4 And I don't, I don't think you can actually square those things.

Speaker 2 I think you can swear them in certain situations. Like I was thinking of that exact example you came up with, right? Like there's no, you know, I'll just pull back the curtain here a little bit.

Speaker 2 Nobody. thinks that I'm not a big fan of Abigail Spamberger.

Speaker 2 She's best she was like one of the first politicians that I interviewed when I started doing, you know, sitting on the interview side of the chair. She's very bulwarky Democrat.

Speaker 2 She's running for governor of Virginia. Frankly, it doesn't behoove either of us to do an hour right now.
Like what is the like if she wants to focus on Virginia issues. She's winning in the polls.

Speaker 2 I'm happy to talk about that race. It's best for her to pivot everything back to what matters to Virginians and to the Commonwealth.

Speaker 2 You know, she doesn't want to fucking shoot shit with me about like speculate about who might be, you know, in the Epstein files and right, like get, you know, get into like Democratic infighting talk you know Zoron versus her right like why right so there's certain races and times where that's called for but like at the broader like brand level you also need democrats who can do you need people who can do both i guess is my point yes and there are obviously examples and i think an increasing number of them you know like it's not that i think the democrats are cheap talking when they say we've got to break into to this realm of media we've got to meet audiences that don't know anything about us They're just in the transition, and so it's awkward.

Speaker 4 But, like, even in just the last six months, you've seen real effort on the part of particularly Democrats who have longer-term political ambitions to try to just go out and show up on a podcast that they probably hadn't heard about two or three months ago and shoot the shit with some hosts who don't really care about policy that much.

Speaker 4 I read a quote, I think it was from Tim Walls yesterday. Was

Speaker 4 am I

Speaker 4 getting ahead of you?

Speaker 2 No, no, no, you're not getting ahead of me. No, I just mean I know because who knows? We you could go at the Tim Walls quotes.
He might be talking about man code anymore. No, no, no,

Speaker 2 no.

Speaker 4 This was a much better taken quote,

Speaker 4 which is that if you don't do interviews,

Speaker 4 you I'm going to script the quote now and probably should just Google it.

Speaker 4 If you don't do interviews, you really will reduce the risk that you say something that can be used against you or that something comes out of your mouth that you wish you could take back, but you also lose an opportunity to reach new people.

Speaker 4 And I mean, that right there is a cognizance of the the problem. And so I think that it's a problem that is getting better over time, but it's awkward.

Speaker 4 We could talk about this in a minute, but I kind of think that the majority of politicians in the Democratic Party just were poorly selected to become the kind of people who are good at freewheeling.

Speaker 5 Are you a creator on TikTok?

Speaker 6 This is your moment to elevate your content.

Speaker 5 Get ready for TikTok's Live Fest 2025, the biggest annual celebration spotlighting creators from around the world.

Speaker 11 Whether you're an aspiring artist singing in your bedroom, a home cook sharing your family recipes, or a gamer chasing victories in real time, there's an audience waiting for you.

Speaker 15 Every day, creators worldwide hit that go live button on their screen to share a piece of their life and inspire millions of people.

Speaker 18 TikTok Live gives every creator a stage to unleash their talent and build their own communities.

Speaker 16 This year's Live Fest is your chance to show the world what you can do.

Speaker 20 You could have a shot at taking home real trophies and walking down the red carpet at their annual awards ceremony.

Speaker 9 So whether you're just starting out on TikTok or already growing your community, check out hashtag LiveFest 2025 on TikTok to find out how you can be part of this global celebration.

Speaker 22 Let's Elevate Live together.

Speaker 1 Life gets messy. Spills, stains, and kid chaos.
But with Anibay, cleaning up is easy. Our sofas are fully machine washable, inside and out, so you never have to stress about messes again.

Speaker 1 Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind.

Speaker 1 Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly.

Speaker 1 Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth-friendly and built to last.
That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch.

Speaker 1 Get early access to Black Friday pricing right now. Sofas started just $699.

Speaker 1 Visit washable sofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com.
Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, let's just talk about it because I'm with you. Because you wrote, I like this line, that politicos love admonishing each other to meet people where they are.

Speaker 2 That's a good cliche that you hear in consultant circles.

Speaker 2 But what if where they are is at the intersection of pop wellness and the Epstein-Files Venn diagram?

Speaker 2 And then you know, I'd just say, who could, how many high-profile Dems could sit with somebody that is a pop wellness Epstein, you know, obsessive and actually talk about it in depth.

Speaker 2 And like this to me is like, I have an area of disagreement on what to do next, but this is like our key agreement on this insight, which is like, say what you want about Trump.

Speaker 2 Trump could not actually sit down with you and Matt Iglesias on the Politics Podcast and talk about the Medicaid rules for an hour. No, he couldn't.

Speaker 2 He has no idea actually what changed changed with Medicaid, and he doesn't care, right? Like, he can handle, he can bullshit and do talking points for a little bit.

Speaker 2 But if you wanted to sit down with him and do, hey, hey, Mr. President, you want to do an hour on the Hunter Biden laptop? He could fucking do an hour on the Hunter Biden laptop.

Speaker 2 Like, he is seeped in that world. And like, I said, it was my advice to Biden people before the horrible debate is, I was like, understand that, like,

Speaker 2 he knows more about some of the stuff than Joe does. Like, you've got to brief him about this.

Speaker 2 Like, he'll be like, in those first 2016 debates, he was able to go deep on random shit that like Jeb didn't even know about, right?

Speaker 2 Because he wasn't reading, like they weren't consuming the same material. Right.
And to this point, it's like, okay, step one is, all right, we need to engage on Epstein.

Speaker 2 And we can do a tweet or two about how, oh, Trump is, you know, protecting the rich again, just like he did with the tax cuts. That's a good tweet.
And you should send Democrats should send that.

Speaker 2 But like, can you actually go and sit down with somebody who's been following this story for eight years and bullshit about it and know things and like seem like a normal guy that's like hanging out at the bar talking about Epstein?

Speaker 2 Epstein that or gal, that's a tougher task and like, and it takes actual like work.

Speaker 4 For any Democrats who are, who are like our age, and unfortunately, we're getting old enough that that's like an increasing number of them now. Yeah, I know.

Speaker 4 Like they should think a little bit about what. what would grab their interest as regular people if they had not made whatever turns in life brought them into politics, right?

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 4 I am interested in the Jeffrey Epstein story, and I'm actually even a little bit interested in like health, fitness, internet, you know, completely detached from politics.

Speaker 4 And I think that if I didn't have a political career of some kind, like I'd just be deeper into those worlds.

Speaker 4 And I might even be susceptible to like going into some conspiratorial rabbit holes with a CrossFit cult.

Speaker 2 Maybe. I mean, for example,

Speaker 4 but like, for example, yes, like, like CrossFit comes with benefits. It comes with some risk.

Speaker 4 And it also comes with the possibility, like, like the risk of making people really kind of weird and cult-like. And like, I've built up, you know, defense mechanisms against that over time.

Speaker 4 But, but, like, if I hadn't, that's probably where I would have ended up.

Speaker 4 And I think that like a lot of Democrats have kind of convinced themselves that like rectitude and also political strategy should make them like when when the news or the buzz online veers into

Speaker 4 areas that don't really intersect with policy very much, that they should kind of be like that is distraction stuff or that is like Republicans doing weird propaganda and disinformation stuff, and we should just like shut our brains off to it almost.

Speaker 4 And so now, you know, we're 10 or 11 days into like Epstein scandal round three, and you get the impression that a lot of the Democrats who are starting to comment on this have only kind of wrapped their heads around why this was a gripping conspiracy theory in the first place.

Speaker 4 And I don't think it necessarily even has to be like this, right?

Speaker 4 Like when I was first writing about politics in the the mid-2000s, Democrats ran the 2006 midterm campaigns on a bunch of stuff, but like they were running against the Bush culture of corruption.

Speaker 4 Like, that was the tagline for the, and they were using like whatever powers they could to they had to unearth examples of like basically favor for money trading that was happening on K-Street.

Speaker 4 People went to jail.

Speaker 2 This is Abramoff. This is Mark.
I was working on a campaign that year, the Mark Foley Page scandal was like honestly what crushed our campaign. Yep.

Speaker 2 Like we were like it was a very close race against an Iowa 3 and another penny story.

Speaker 4 So those were important issues, but there's very little policy content to them.

Speaker 4 And then they they come to power, they pass a bunch of good bills, and I think that they internalize this idea that if we just nail the governing, then all this other stuff is going to melt away and people are going to be appreciative of the good things we have brought to them.

Speaker 4 Right. And it turns out it like doesn't really work that way because A, nothing's ever right perfect in America, right? Like there's a lot of ruin in a nation.

Speaker 4 But then like, I remember in 2014 that the generic ballot for the midterms that year was like really close and all the way through to like September.

Speaker 4 And it was kind of like, ah, Dems might lose the Senate. Maybe Ruth Beter Ginsburg should have retired.
But it's kind of a toss-up. And they ended up getting wiped out.

Speaker 4 And they got wiped out because like that August or September and then into October, there was an Ebola outbreak in East Africa.

Speaker 4 And Republicans led by actually Donald Trump started demagoguing on this issue. And then they were going to bring scientists back.

Speaker 4 And they, no, and there was a nativism thing where terrorists were going to cross the border, bringing Ebola with them. And they got crushed on this issue that was just kind of made up.

Speaker 4 I mean, like, there was actually an Ebola outbreak, but it was being addressed, right?

Speaker 4 And then Hillary Clinton goes on to lose the next election, not because of policy content, but because of her emails, right?

Speaker 4 And at some point, like it started dawning on me that the theory that Democrats were operating on, that like govern well and like you will reap the political rewards was just not correct.

Speaker 4 And that they really did need to engage on these hysterias, basically.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And just know how to talk about it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I agree with you.
I think that the Democrat, and this is, this goes to the Chris Arnaid stuff where he's like the front of the class, back of the class stuff.

Speaker 2 And like all the Democrats are front of the class people. And there's something to be said for being a front of the class person.

Speaker 2 person but you know you need to be able to talk to back of the class people too and like as you said the like democrats are self-selecting for the types of people to run were all front of the class people and so they weren't capable of talking to back of the class people obama was an exception to that because he was in the choom gang you know so he was able to cross over he could code switch between the front and the back

Speaker 2 yeah no it's true and so i think that's like almost the easy solve to this like the thing that we really agree on like you just have to accept that this is a truth and try it right and like actually try and engage and recruit people that can do against this and then there are in front of the class people can learn how to talk about epstein you just got to like read some new york post and whatever like you know like follow the right people on social media and like do a little you know i could give you some briefings if you want and we hire chimp yeah no no please don't hire me i'll i'll pro bono i'm retired but um

Speaker 2 but like that that was the easy part The harder part that I'm going to get at with you is like,

Speaker 2 is like there's a cultural bridge beyond the tabloid stuff that like like the Democrats need to really reckon with.

Speaker 2 And like this gets you into the more of the, you know, your co-host, the Matt of Glacier space, right? Like where it's like, yeah, sure, you can do some things. So you can start talking about Epstein.

Speaker 2 You can engage in tabloid politics better, like in a way that Trump does. You know, you can not whatever, only do white paper politics.

Speaker 2 But like, aren't there actual substantive either issues or the manner in which you speak or, you know, aren't there other cultural barriers that that are like hurting the Democrats that are a little harder to bridge than just like, you should talk about Epstein now instead of pretending like it doesn't exist?

Speaker 4 Yes. And I think part of the reason Matt focuses on policy so much is that that's where the streetlight is shining down, right?

Speaker 4 Like if you're a politician, you really do control entirely what issues you run on and like how you sell them to voters.

Speaker 4 And so if you're not connecting with people, one way to try to change that is to like turn the policy toggles a little bit. And I'm like, depending on the policy, I think that that's totally fine.

Speaker 4 But I think that what you were alluding to about, you know, the front row kids versus the back row kids, the way people in the biz talk about it is high education attainment and low education attainment.

Speaker 4 And Democrats are increasingly becoming a party of college educated,

Speaker 4 you know, middle to higher income people

Speaker 4 who will become more and more culturally distant from the party that is becoming increasingly lower education, right? You know, so what do you do about that? I mean,

Speaker 4 you like purge the party and recruit a bunch of blue-collar workers, give them a little bit of media training and throw them.

Speaker 2 You know, they don't even

Speaker 2 know that. Like this is what I'm trying to like tease out, right? Because you ask that question.
It's like, you know, if you ask any, anybody in like the squad, like Bernie world, right?

Speaker 2 Like their answer will be, well, policy, like, which is, but their policy answer is we need some socialism, right? Like whatever.

Speaker 2 Like, we need more economically populist, whatever word you want to put on it, like, you know, bigger social safety net. Like, that's the answer to this question.

Speaker 2 If you ask your co-host, Matt Iglesias, he'll be like, well, no, it's policy, but it's more like we should, Democrats should be for drill, baby, drill, and like guns, like, or whatever.

Speaker 2 Like, there should be cultural policy. And then you and I think you and me agree that, like, there's also just like a performance part of it.

Speaker 2 Like, Democrats should actually recruit more working-class people who can talk, who are more comfortable talking with other working-class people in fucking language that they use and with references they use.

Speaker 2 It's like in that triangle of options, like, do they need to do all three? Do you think?

Speaker 2 Could you get away with just doing one of them?

Speaker 4 I think you definitely need some mixture of all three.

Speaker 4 I think that what you first need to do is because there's this weird synthesis between the left and the center where they seem to agree that if the main thing is just to make people who are from the lower and middle classes feel like government is working in their material interests.

Speaker 4 And if you solve that problem, you will win back all the blue-collar voters because they'll be grateful for the improved conditions. And I kind of think that like the 2024 election is

Speaker 2 like a

Speaker 4 yeah, or at least it's a it's a it's a strong mark against it.

Speaker 2 So I have a yeah, I think that's wrong.

Speaker 2 I agree that the Democrats should do that because that is good. It's just it's a net good and to help people improve their material lives.

Speaker 2 But I don't think that that's the skeleton key to beating the mega. Right.

Speaker 4 So put that out of your mind or at least downweight how much you think that that is the skeleton key to politics, right? And then, you know, when something outrageous happens, you know, know,

Speaker 4 Trump corruption scandal is exposed, or he's, you know,

Speaker 4 basically is pushing California to the brink of secession, whatever, like, actually get mad about it. Because like when you talk to Democrats, particularly younger ones who are

Speaker 4 feeling their way in the direction that we're talking about, privately, like they...

Speaker 4 They let their real emotions about what's happening come out. And a lot of the times when I'm having those conversations, like, you should just say that.

Speaker 4 It's not, you know, the 1960s, 70s, or 80s anymore where if a politician says, damn, everyone gets all, you know, weirded out by it.

Speaker 4 Like, if something has happened, happening that's outrageous and like

Speaker 4 the fact that Donald Trump has committed 110 billion impeachable offenses in the last six months is something that all Democrats are terrified to mention. It's just like, why?

Speaker 4 Why be so scared of that idea?

Speaker 2 Trump literally was calling the Democrats evil. I was thinking about this yesterday.

Speaker 2 It was like, it's like randomly at the prayer breakfast, he just does an aside where he's like, Democrats Democrats are evil. And it's like that, and that's just part of his shtick.

Speaker 2 And he just, and it, and it seeps in with people and it seeps in with voters.

Speaker 2 And it's like, Democrats are afraid that if they do it, that one of the panelists on CNN will like wag their finger at them and say, Don't look down at Republican voters by saying they're evil.

Speaker 2 So it's just kind of like, I don't know why, why? What is the asymmetry here? Like, if it's like, if they're doing, if Trump and the administration is doing evil shit, like, call them fucking evil.

Speaker 2 All right. Like, but to your point, right?

Speaker 4 Like, why do swing voters matter as a concept? They matter because both parties compete over the same pool of them. Right.
So what Trump is doing worked a little bit better than that.

Speaker 4 There's overlapping pools, really.

Speaker 2 Because there's also a pool of swing voters who are either Republican or no vote and or Democrat and no vote. Right.
And then the swing, then there's the middle pool.

Speaker 4 Yes. But but but they're like, however you want to group them.
Trump did a little bit better than Democrats in the last election at reaching them. But like he, it wasn't with policy.

Speaker 4 It was with bombast, right?

Speaker 4 And so it's like, if it works for him, then at least you know that there's no huge penalty to pay for popping off at the mouth a bit and not being so wrapped up in yourself that you can't express yourself like a normal person.

Speaker 4 So I think that those are like: step one: there's more to politics than just governing well. Step two, learn to talk.

Speaker 4 Like you would talk to your spouse or your best friends from college or high school or whatever about what's fucked up about what's happening in the world.

Speaker 4 And then, third, and this is where I actually think like Matt makes his best point, which is it's about the Senate

Speaker 4 specifically, but I think it's a generalizable thing is that if Democrats want to stop the

Speaker 4 slippage into authoritarianism, make the country more Democratic, they're going to need to win back the Senate, and they currently don't have a plan to do so because their brand, whether it's a policy problem or a interpersonal problem, is toxic in the states that you would need to win, right?

Speaker 4 So what's the plan for winning North Carolina, Ohio, Texas, whatever?

Speaker 4 And his emphasis, I think, is mostly on the policy changes you would need the party to tolerate in candidates from those states. So, lax on guns, strict on the border, things like that.

Speaker 4 And I think that that's probably correct. But I think that

Speaker 4 what you want is not just like a new prescription, like this is the old agenda, here's the new agenda,

Speaker 4 but

Speaker 4 a method for peacemaking within the party so that the kinds of candidates who might win in North Carolina are willing to run, right? Like it's probably not going to be someone like Zoran Mandani.

Speaker 4 It's probably going to be someone like Roy Cooper. And you want that person to feel like, well, I'm going to run for Senate.

Speaker 4 I'm going to talk about how I'm more lax on guns than the rest of the party. And like the gun control movement people are going to

Speaker 4 jump down my throat about it. What I've written about as

Speaker 4 a proposal for intra-party peace isn't about finding the middle ground between policy, but it's about just like establishing grounds for good faith, right?

Speaker 4 Like, I think that I would want progressives, and I think that I think you're seeing this start to happen with people like AOC to

Speaker 4 have more grace for the kinds of candidates that you need to win in red and purple-red states, right?

Speaker 4 Just like when they run on, like from your state, if John Bell Edwards ran and he ran on being pro-life, like don't make a big stink about it because it's important to.

Speaker 2 Or maybe just make a a big stink about it, but kind of just wink about it.

Speaker 2 Sure, I mean,

Speaker 2 be a politician.

Speaker 4 But so that's the give. Like, the take is that

Speaker 4 what they need to have grace for are things that are actually culturally important to the people who live in Louisiana or Texas or North Carolina.

Speaker 4 And to me, those are things like guns, like abortion, and they're not like what you end up getting from a lot of centrist Democrats like Kirsten Cinema, which is like private equity concerns and

Speaker 4 like capital gains taxes. And then they're claiming that it's, no, I need to do this because my state is more conservative.
And

Speaker 4 I'll get run out of office if I don't do these things. And it's like, no, that's not true.

Speaker 4 You're just mining for donor bucks and you're using your political challenges as cover to be a little bit soft corrupt. Right.
And so that you want moderate leaders to say,

Speaker 4 We are not going to do that.

Speaker 4 Like, yes, we need the party to moderate on actual issues that matter to actual people in actual parts of the country that are more conservative than Blue America, but not as a smokescreen to do crypto and AI.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, I think that's right. My one more and another thing on that before we move on is also they got to be able to attack the main body of the party.

Speaker 2 And like, and, you know, I think of all of my complaints about Joe Biden, which are myriad, like my biggest one that does not get enough attention is like once he decided to leave, this like sensitivity to being criticized.

Speaker 2 like what you know with and you can and like this happened internally where there were like calls uh that like where and and part of this i think was combo wanted to be loyal but part of this was like the biden people were very sensitive to being criticized and like didn't joe didn't want his legacy to be hurt or whatever and it's like no like the the to to reach these guys that we're talking about that care about epstein that think that there is a conspiracy happening you need to be able to credibly run and say i'm not part of that and like basically

Speaker 2 and and that was what worked for Obama in 08.

Speaker 2 He's able to credibly do that because he wasn't around for the Iraq war vote, basically, but also because of the nature of his name and like a lot of reasons. He was like, I'm different.

Speaker 2 And then that's Trump. And you can't expect that you're going to be able to

Speaker 2 win over voters that voted for Trump in Texas for the Senate if they think that you don't have any legitimate criticisms of the Democrats.

Speaker 2 So your advice about how mad they need to be about Trump, I agree with that.

Speaker 2 You also need to, whatever thing it is, I actually, I literally don't care what it is, but whatever thing it is that pisses you off about the Democrats, you need to be mad about that too and make sure people know it, you know, so you, it doesn't seem as if you're a stooge.

Speaker 4 Yeah, just like everything's been fine and we just had some bad luck or whatever. I mostly agree.
I think that there are a couple distinctions I draw in that.

Speaker 4 One is like the distinction between Biden per se, the person, and the Democratic Party establishment, which is, you know, he's a part of, but is a bigger and in in some ways easier to hate on thing than he, you know, like, and I mean, like, I sensed when he decided to run for president at 77 or whatever that there was a lot of ego here and that this could get us into trouble.

Speaker 4 And sure enough, I think that the Democrats who are torn about throwing Biden under the bus are just genuinely fond of the person. And it's

Speaker 2 tough. And by the way, that was not me saying that, like, oh, the thing to do is throw Biden under the bus.
And you can do it if you want. That's fine with me.

Speaker 2 I just meant like, you can't be afraid to separate yourself from either Biden.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Well, but like to tie it back to what we've been talking about all along is that, you know, anyone who has ambition in the Democratic Party is going to be asked the Biden question.

Speaker 4 And I think that like, just as in policy, all these people should stop and they should ask themselves, what do I really think about Joe Biden, the person, how he carried himself, what he did in office, how he handled the final year, how he's handled things since.

Speaker 4 And what do I want to say about it? And I think that what I've seen so far, you know, like Mallory McMorrow and a few few others, is just this, like, you know, consultants say throw Biden under bus.

Speaker 4 And so, like, all the nuance collapses out of that. And you're defining yourself in contrast to Biden, right?

Speaker 4 I, it's a little bit shitty.

Speaker 4 And it's also, I don't think it scans as real because, like, you could probably go find quotes from most of those Democrats from literally just a year ago saying the opposite. You know, like, like,

Speaker 4 so you really need to know what you believe and then figure out how to articulate.

Speaker 2 That's quite a so that's

Speaker 4 So that's that's the Biden versus the party per se. I feel like give them a wide berth.
I do see sometimes that candidates,

Speaker 4 especially when their races are really hard, they will go about this in ways that I think are

Speaker 4 maybe they're helpful in their in their races, but they like they are so cutting and mean about the Democratic Party that it's like

Speaker 4 it hurts the rest of the party really badly, right? Like so the one that sticks in my craw.

Speaker 2 Is Bernie saying the election was stolen from him?

Speaker 4 Yeah, well, well, okay, okay. Jared Golden.

Speaker 4 Bernie talking about like at a time of unusual economic prosperity, how 60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, which is a made-up statistic, is not helpful. It's like

Speaker 4 you want your party to be able to run on the optimism of morning in America, not like, hey, sorry, it's been three and a half years and you're all still miserable, right?

Speaker 4 So that's a good example.

Speaker 4 But Jared Golden, his thing after the debate was, this confirms my suspicion that Donald Trump is going to win the election, and I'm I'm okay with that because I disagree with Democrats that Donald Trump is a threat to democracy.

Speaker 4 It's like, whatever. It was one quote in one newspaper, so it wasn't like some

Speaker 4 major incident.

Speaker 4 But it validates the Republican critique that Democrats have Trump derangement syndrome and all their warnings about threats to democracy are opportunistic and fake or hysterical, and you can just ignore them.

Speaker 4 And like, either he's stupid or he was like very cynical in doing that.

Speaker 4 And I think that like you want people to be responsible enough to know the difference between attacking the Democratic Party on grounds where it has legitimately failed or underperformed and attacking the Democratic Party with casual slander.

Speaker 4 Like, they're all making up that they think Trump is a threat to democracy because

Speaker 4 the latter is damaging, the former is constructive.

Speaker 2 It's a little harder than it sounds, it seems like, Brian.

Speaker 4 I know. I mean, it's a maze.

Speaker 5 Are you a creator on TikTok?

Speaker 6 This is your moment to elevate your content. Get ready for TikTok's Live Fest 2025, the biggest annual celebration spotlighting creators from around the world.

Speaker 11 Whether you're an aspiring artist singing in your bedroom, a home cook sharing your family recipes, or a gamer chasing victories in real time, there's an audience waiting for you.

Speaker 15 Every day, creators worldwide hit that go live button on their screen to share a piece of their life and inspire millions of people.

Speaker 21 TikTok Live gives every creator a stage to unleash their talent and build their own communities.

Speaker 16 This year's Live Fest is your chance to show the world what you can do.

Speaker 20 You could have a shot at taking home real trophies and walking down the red carpet at their annual awards ceremony.

Speaker 9 So whether you're just starting out on TikTok or already growing your community, check out hashtag LiveFest 2025 on TikTok to find out how you can be part of this global celebration.

Speaker 22 Let's Elevate Live together.

Speaker 1 There's nothing like sinking into luxury. Anibay sofas combine ultimate comfort and design at an affordable affordable price.

Speaker 1 Anibay has designed the only fully machine washable sofa from top to bottom. The stain-resistant performance fabric slip covers and cloud-like frame duvet can go straight into your wash.

Speaker 1 Perfect for anyone with kids, pets, or anyone who loves an easy-to-clean, spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slip covers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style.

Speaker 1 Whether you need a single chair, love seat, or a luxuriously large sectional, Anibay Annabe has you covered. Visit washable sofas.com to upgrade your home.
Sofas started just $699.

Speaker 1 And right now, get early access to Black Friday savings, up to 60% off store-wide, with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Shop now at washablesofas.com.

Speaker 2 Add a little

Speaker 1 to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 2 Let's get back to Epstein. Here's the easy part.
Here's the easy part. Talk about Jeffrey Epstein.
Listen to a Julie Brown interview so you know what the hell you're talking about.

Speaker 2 And let's use it as a cudgel, as it should be used against Republicans. I want to play you this audio.
It's a little mashup.

Speaker 2 People have probably heard most of these, but it's the Attorney General, the FBI director, and the Deputy FBI director, in their own words, talking about the Epstein files.

Speaker 25 Please do not let that story go.

Speaker 4 Who has Jeffrey Epstein's black book?

Speaker 2 Black book. FBI.

Speaker 4 But who?

Speaker 4 That is, I I mean, there's... Oh, that's under direct control of the director of the FBI.

Speaker 25 What the hell are the House Republicans doing? They have the majority. You can't get the list.
Put on your big boy pants and let us know who the pedophiles are. Who's on the Epstein tapes, folks?

Speaker 25 Who's on those tapes? Who's in those black books? Why have they been hiding it?

Speaker 2 And this is something Donald Trump has talked about. The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients.
Will that really happen?

Speaker 26 It's sitting on my desk right now to review.

Speaker 26 That's been a directive by President Trump. Everything's going to come out to the public.
The public has a right to know. Americans have a right to know.

Speaker 2 I mean.

Speaker 2 They might be clowns, but it's the Attorney General, the FBI director, and the Deputy FBI Director all passionately using Brian Butler's advice, passionately advocating for the release of this material.

Speaker 2 Like the Democrats cannot just let this go. And I don't think they're going to.

Speaker 4 Here's one place where I do sympathize with Democrats: is that like what you're hearing from these guys is

Speaker 4 acting, you know, they're they're pretending to, you know, I, maybe some of them are actually like really down the rabbit hole to conspiracy theories.

Speaker 4 But every time something insane happens in Republican politics, you'll get a lot of liberals being like, can you imagine if a Democrat, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 4 And what I always want to say is don't do the meta-critique. Just have Democrats go out and act themselves.
Like be perform your anger. And I honestly would be horribly uncomfortable doing that.

Speaker 4 Like, that's just the kind of person I am. And I think probably Democrats are a lot like me.

Speaker 2 You would? I'll do it right now.

Speaker 2 I will do it. I'll show you how to do it right now.
FBI director Cash Patel, you said that the FBI director has this information. These are pedophiles.

Speaker 2 There are real victims out there that were harmed by these powerful people. What are you hiding?

Speaker 2 Is it Donald Trump? Is it friends of Donald Trump that you're hiding? Come testify today and explain what happened. Or were you lying then? Because those are the options.

Speaker 4 That's easy that's not performative that's legit so we're recording this tuesday i guess it comes out tuesday so whatever tuesday yesterday

Speaker 4 hakeem jeffries i think in two different places finally came out and it's with with something strong he was really good let's listen there are only two things that are possible here

Speaker 27 option one

Speaker 27 donald trump pam bondi and the MAGA extremists intentionally lied to the American people for years

Speaker 27 about the Jeffrey Epstein situation. That's option one.

Speaker 27 Option two

Speaker 27 is that, in fact,

Speaker 27 there's reason for the American people to be concerned as it relates to

Speaker 2 what

Speaker 27 information has not been released

Speaker 27 that could be damaging to the Trump administration and the friends and family of the Trump administration and their billionaire corrupt supporters.

Speaker 27 And so they're actively engaging in a cover-up.

Speaker 3 Option one, they lied for years.

Speaker 27 Option two, they're engaging in a cover-up.

Speaker 27 At this point, it seems reasonable that can only be one of the two things.

Speaker 2 Here's good.

Speaker 4 Yes, but.

Speaker 4 You'll notice that the formulation he came up with, he came to it like a week after the podcast pros did. Like as soon as Trump backed away from Epstein stuff and

Speaker 4 got Bondi and Patel on board, they realized this is either you lied to us about pedophilia to get elected, or you're covering up the fact that you're implicated in the pedophilia scandal.

Speaker 4 Which is it we need to know? And like when I recognized that that was the either or that Trump had presented, I was like, that's an important point. Democrats should jump on that.

Speaker 4 And I mean, I happen to know a little bit about how Democrats go about figuring out what to talk about and when and how to say it.

Speaker 4 And it's that like they waited for the focus group information to come back on whether they should talk about this and what they should say about it. And what they learned is essentially that like

Speaker 4 the Democratic Party standards that like do best in focus groups still outperform Epstein's stuff.

Speaker 4 But interest and engagement level is so much lower on that stuff that if you talk about Epstein, you reach so much farther and that like that outweighs like the persuasive power of things like healthcare.

Speaker 4 And they had to wait for some sort of laboratory experiment to tell them that before they felt comfortable coming out and saying it.

Speaker 4 And this is the kind of impulse I want to unplug from the party because I don't think, I think Hakeem Jeffries is a smart guy.

Speaker 4 And I bet you he kind of knew that this was a decent approach and that he didn't actually need to wait seven days.

Speaker 4 That like literally as soon as Trump posted that crazy thing on on True Social or whatever, that this was a good line to use. And

Speaker 2 but better late than never, they're doing

Speaker 2 the other thing that happened yesterday. They added an amendment to like some crypto bill, I guess, about

Speaker 2 you know, demanding that the files be released, which is like, it's kind of like, what are the files, right?

Speaker 2 Like, it's not exactly like there's like a, just a ledger that lists all of the pedophiles, right?

Speaker 2 Like, the files include like, you know, all of the investigations and the videos that were taken from Epstein's house and, you know, very, the redacted stuff of things that's already been released so anyway but they they put an amendment through ralph norman voted with them republican from south carolina chip roy uh republican from texas abstained and so like you're getting close right to like actually forcing that the the hand and um and so doing that kind of stuff i think is is important and meaningful and things will come out from all this right the other thing the other example i always gave which was why i was so frustrated with democrats oversight the last time they were in charge, was I was like, there's a lot of mockery of the Benghazi hearings.

Speaker 2 You know, there's a lot of mockery of all of that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2 But that, like, in like a weird, indirect way, like the Republican oversight hearings led to the Comey letter, right? Because it was like, oh, we realized that Anthony Weiner has a laptop with this.

Speaker 2 And then we looked at the laptop, right? Like, you just, you never know what stuff will be uncovered.

Speaker 2 And like, there is obviously more information and more people we don't know who they are are they donors are they people that have gotten sweetheart deals in this administration does does trump show up in a weird kind of way that's a little bit you know what i mean like maybe he was interviewed i mean maybe the fbi yeah right like the answer might not just be like oh trump is on list right and like trump raped young girl like maybe i don't know like there have been a lot of accusations against donald trump but There are a ton of other things that could lead to other, you know, distractions and problems.

Speaker 2 And like, it's worth playing in that that pool and seeing what happens.

Speaker 4 So, I mean, what you said about Benghazi is literally true.

Speaker 4 It was through the Benghazi investigation that they found out that Hillary Clinton was using this email server, which started that investigation, which led to the initial Comey statement.

Speaker 4 Then they found the laptop. I mean, there was a through line and all that.
And somewhere in the middle of that process, Kevin McCarthy came out and ruined his first bid for speaker,

Speaker 4 saying,

Speaker 4 Remember how popular Hillary Clinton was at the beginning of this campaign? Well, what did we do? We started a Benghazi select committee, and look at what happened to her numbers.

Speaker 4 And back then, there was still a little bit more shame in politics than there is now.

Speaker 4 So it ruined his, like, Republicans were a little embarrassed that he had confessed to what the strategy was, but he was dead on.

Speaker 2 He was completely accurate, right?

Speaker 4 I took a lot from that experience.

Speaker 4 And so when Democrats took over in 2019 and then did an impeachment over the Ukraine shakedown, there was a moment in that investigation where one of the witnesses, I think, attested that Trump had a bunch of of other corrupt-sounding conversations with international leaders that they stashed on this server that was improperly classified.

Speaker 4 And it was like, oh, they can blow this scandal wide open. And like, the leadership shut down that avenue of inquiry.

Speaker 4 And it's like, why would you, maybe that's the, that's the Hillary's emails in the, and, and they just, they like resist the temptation for the jugular.

Speaker 4 And it's related to what we were saying about waiting for the focus group information to come back. And like, I don't think Jeffries blew it.
Like time was not so much of the essence here.

Speaker 4 Like he struck it while the iron was still plenty hot.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, that's good. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And like, and like, and like, I think John Kennedy in the Senate, your senator, was like, they're going to have to go back to the drawing board on this. But I would like Schumer now to say,

Speaker 4 we are going to introduce these new elements of obstruction until Republicans stop the Epstein cover-up so that the story doesn't fizzle out because if Democrats don't stay on it, it will eventually fizzle.

Speaker 2 Another example of this, just I was listening to you talk about like kind of foreign influence and stuff is like the crypto thing, which is something I'm obsessed with, like the Trump crypto coin and how that's going away.

Speaker 2 And again, Democrats like right now have limited avenues for like doing hearings and stuff since they're in the minority.

Speaker 2 Like that's another thing that like, just going back to our original meta point, right? That like you could go on.

Speaker 2 one of these bro shows because they do crypto, you know, go on with Portnoy or one of these fucking guys, you know, and talk crypto and be like, isn't it strange that the president has this fucking shit coin and we don't know who's investing in it?

Speaker 2 Like, aren't you worried about that? You care about corruption.

Speaker 2 You like, you care about the congressional stock, congressional congresspeople investing in Palantir, and you're mad about that or stocks or whatever. Nancy Pelosi got rich.

Speaker 2 It's like Trump's getting rich. We don't, at least we know what Nancy Pelosi was invested in.
Like, we don't even know who's investing in him.

Speaker 2 And again, like, that is a type of thing that I, you know, you hear Democrats mention as a talking point, but like, it's something that like you could go and sit down with somebody for 20 minutes and dig in.

Speaker 2 And that starts to get, you know, their natural conspiratorial podcast mind percolating a little bit.

Speaker 4 And Tim, don't you think it would have been better if instead of saying, hey, we need to placate the crypto barons, let's pass this bill and let's pass it, even though Republicans are blocking a provision that would prohibit Trump from owning, being involved in the crypto industry.

Speaker 4 If instead of that, the senators who wanted to cave the crypto went on these shows and were like, look, like we want to meet you where, but like, first, isn't it weird that like, shouldn't we have rules?

Speaker 2 Should we have rules about this that the president can't have an anonymous anonymous investors in his coin? Because I'm with you. If we add that rule to this bill, I'm for it.
Yeah, I totally agree.

Speaker 2 Luke Gago could have done that.

Speaker 4 That's easy. He absolutely could have.
And I think that like he probably would have been actually pretty good at it. And yeah.

Speaker 4 But, you know, I also think that like there's a donor consideration that's kind of making it hard for them to see their own political interests clearly. But that would have just been better.

Speaker 4 It would have been good on harming Trump.

Speaker 4 It would have made the crypto bill better, and it would have given lots of Democrats easy inroads to these audiences who probably aren't super familiar with the legislative process or what's in the bill or whatever else.

Speaker 2 And it's not too late. Nope.
And the bill's passed. Yeah, yeah.
But it's like, it's not too late. The issue's not dead.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's not too late. Like, you can do all this.
You can reinvigorate all this stuff. I don't, you know, again, like, learn from Trump.

Speaker 2 Trump fucking brings up scandals from nine, fake scandals from nine years ago. He's suckable.
He's like, all the time.

Speaker 2 You know what i mean and so like okay just because we're not the qatar plane story is off of you know the front page of the washington post doesn't mean that you can't go like talk about it to some fucking influencer anyway yeah

Speaker 7 are you a creator on tick tock this is your moment to elevate your content get ready for tick tocks live fest 2025 the biggest annual celebration spotlighting creators from around the world whether you're an aspiring artist singing in your bedroom a home cook sharing your family recipes or a gamer chasing chasing victories in real time.

Speaker 13 There's an audience waiting for you.

Speaker 15 Every day, creators worldwide hit that go live button on their screen to share a piece of their life and inspire millions of people.

Speaker 18 TikTok Live gives every creator a stage to unleash their talent and build their own communities.

Speaker 16 This year's Live Fest is your chance to show the world what you can do.

Speaker 20 You could have a shot at taking home real trophies and walking down the red carpet at their annual awards ceremony.

Speaker 9 So whether you're just starting out on TikTok or already growing your community, check out hashtag LiveFest 2025 on TikTok to find out how you can be part of this global celebration.

Speaker 22 Let's Elevate Live together.

Speaker 1 Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? Wash away your worries with Anibay. Anibay is the only machine-washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget-friendly prices.

Speaker 1 That's right, sofas start at just $699.

Speaker 1 Enjoy a no-risk experience with pet-friendly, stain-resistant, and changeable slip covers made with performance fabric.

Speaker 1 Experience cloud-like comfort with high-resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity, and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime.

Speaker 1 Shop washable sofas.com for early Black Friday savings up to 60% off site-wide, backed by a 30-day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund.

Speaker 1 No return shipping or restocking fees every penny back upgrade now at washable sofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply

Speaker 2 all right a couple other things happened on the hill well just really quick i just want to let you cook what's your like what is a valuable way to now that the the tax and spend bill uh has passed like

Speaker 2 It's kind of a disaster, I think. But how do you wrap your hand around that issue as opposed to these more tabloid-y issues?

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 what I've written, and

Speaker 4 it's the best I've come up with so far, is really essentially to take a page from you guys

Speaker 4 back in 2010.

Speaker 2 At the Bulwark? Yeah.

Speaker 4 RNC,

Speaker 4 John Boehner and Mitch McConnell.

Speaker 2 Where are the jobs?

Speaker 4 Well, specifically like Obamacare, right?

Speaker 4 Democrats were fretting over the details of their bill.

Speaker 4 And Nancy Pelosi was like, we just need to pass the bill, then we'll implement it. People will be happy with it once they find out what's in it.

Speaker 2 And Republicans are like, uh-uh.

Speaker 4 Obamacare means you own everything that happens in the healthcare system.

Speaker 4 Everyone whose insurance gets canceled,

Speaker 4 every

Speaker 4 cent that gets cut out of Medicare reimbursements, we'll call it a Medicare cut and we'll blame you, right?

Speaker 4 And I think that Trump has made Trump care now. And most of the harms of Trump care are set to take effect.
at the end of or after his presidency.

Speaker 4 And so it's not going to be like we wake up early next year and 10 million people lose their insurance all at once. But hospitals are already under strain.
They're going to continue closing.

Speaker 4 Like honest healthcare executives will say the looming Medicaid cuts are making that happen faster. Every time a rural hospital closes, Trump care did this.
Your member voted for Trumpcare, right?

Speaker 4 And it's not like always going to be the sexiest topic or the thing that gets you invited onto

Speaker 4 Joe Rogan's show or whatever.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 4 I do think that like the the sort of memeification of what the consequences of this bill will be will do a better job getting into people's head if they have a simple mnemonic for understanding what is changing about healthcare and who's responsible, which is what essentially what Republicans did when they wanted Democrats to own every negative thing that happened to the healthcare system after Obamacare passed.

Speaker 4 And I think that Trump care offers like a pithier way to do it than, you know, I've heard you on your podcast struggle with like whether we call it one big fugly slut or and Democrats, because they're like...

Speaker 2 Trump care is the answer.

Speaker 4 I think it's Trump care, but Democrats are stuck on one big, beautiful betrayal, which makes no sense.

Speaker 2 Yeah, big, ugly bill.

Speaker 2 Big, ugly bill. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And like the beauty of just being like, okay, you passed the generational reform to the healthcare system, one that really sucks and it's going to hurt a lot of people.

Speaker 4 Fold in the rest of the Trump healthcare policy.

Speaker 4 Trump care is also cancer research being gutted. Trump care is also

Speaker 4 the problems that people with pre-existing conditions will experience when their premiums go up because people drop out of the insurance exchange.

Speaker 4 It's like there's a lot to work with here that isn't just in the text of the bill.

Speaker 4 And if I were a staffer for an ambitious Democrat, I would keep one eye out for any healthcare story that was even like loosely connected to Trump administration policy or this bill and just be like, hey, Trump care claims another victim.

Speaker 4 That's me cooking. Like there's, there may be better, better ideas out there.
I also feel like, and I think I know this issue matters to you a lot.

Speaker 4 They should be thinking now about what they're going to do.

Speaker 2 About, oh,

Speaker 4 I like, look, like, I honestly,

Speaker 2 I don't know where you're going to go. What issue matters to me a lot? Immigration.
El Salvador?

Speaker 4 I'm thinking of like the $150 billion for ICE in the prisons. But I think the debt, in a weird way, might.

Speaker 2 I have a number of issues that I care about, Brian. I thought it'd be funny for me to say the debt because I knew that wasn't what you were going to do.
But

Speaker 4 it might help Democrats on its own if debt leads to inflation, leads to stagflation, to interest rates, high interest rates, really.

Speaker 4 It could save democracy that Trump is being so reckless fiscally.

Speaker 4 But they should be thinking about the new politics of immigration that have transformed because of these raids, the stories about Alligator Alcatraz.

Speaker 4 Like, suddenly, Trump is way underwater here, and he's just about to start

Speaker 4 building this secret police force in this gulag archipelago.

Speaker 4 And, you know, either people are going to rebel further against him on this stuff as it becomes a nationwide infestation, or they're going to get used to it.

Speaker 4 And I think I would want Democrats to get out of the fetal position on immigration and think about how to go on the front foot now.

Speaker 4 Because otherwise, they're going to inherit this situation at some point in the future and either have to dismantle it, or this enormous police force is going to be like controlling their politics in the same way like corrupt city police police forces sometimes undermine mayors if they don't get their money and and their enforcement priorities met.

Speaker 2 Yeah, this is,

Speaker 2 and I obviously agree with you on that, and Democrats should be on the front foot on this. And

Speaker 2 this goes back to our main topic of the day, our overarching topic, which is like nothing is a distraction, actually.

Speaker 2 Like you can use anything that he wants to use as a distraction to your benefit now that he is the president, right?

Speaker 2 Like, and if he wants to talk about fucking Greenland, like he's talking about Greenland instead of solving your fucking problems. And so let's engage on Greenland and fucking mock him over it.

Speaker 2 If he wants to do, you know, build a fucking, you know, gulag in the Everglades. Okay.

Speaker 2 Well, like, he can do that if he wants, but he could have built housing that was going to be more affordable for you. Right.
Like, if a Democrats are so,

Speaker 2 if they buy the frame that you and I don't buy, which is they have to pivot things back to kitchen table issues, you can still use it within these conversations, right?

Speaker 2 Like I liked Michael Tomaski wrote in the TNR the other day that they're spending four times as much on immigration detention centers as is in the budget for low-income housing. Yeah, like that.

Speaker 2 I think that's like a legit populist economic issue and way to get into this in a way that people get. Like that's an easy talk.
And people are like, do we really want that?

Speaker 2 Do people really want that? Like, sure, the Stephen Miller acolytes do, but a lot of people don't.

Speaker 2 And so I do think there's a way to. to get into these issues that way.

Speaker 4 If I could talk to Hakeem Jeffries or like a swing state Democrat or, you know, somebody who's being really

Speaker 4 like careful, yeah, probably am. Tiptoeing around the issue, I'd be like, this policy is essentially disembodied Stephen Miller, right? Like it is his DNA that's flowing into these policies.

Speaker 4 Look at Stephen Miller. Listen to him.
Can you think of a less appealing person? Why are you scared to take Stephen Miller on? I mean, like the most defeatable person in the world of politics.

Speaker 4 And you think that he's got you in checkmate or something like this?

Speaker 4 I suspect that there are ways, because this is a question of tyranny versus liberty beyond housing and economics, that there are ways for Democrats to take the issue on frontally.

Speaker 2 Amen. But

Speaker 4 if, to the extent that you're still scared of

Speaker 4 being like, and that means that we're going to have to do something else with undocumented immigrants, and that means that they're going to stay, and you don't want to end up having to cop to that, sure.

Speaker 4 What you said is totally true. It's like, why would we spend $150 billion

Speaker 4 on concentration camps, but like less than $10 billion on housing,

Speaker 4 the biggest economic crisis the country's facing, right?

Speaker 5 Are you a creator on TikTok?

Speaker 6 This is your moment to elevate your content. Get ready for TikTok's Live Fest 2025, the biggest annual celebration spotlighting creators from around the world.

Speaker 11 Whether you're an aspiring artist singing in your bedroom, a home cook sharing your family recipes, or a gamer chasing chasing victories in real time.

Speaker 13 There's an audience waiting for you.

Speaker 15 Every day, creators worldwide hit that go live button on their screen to share a piece of their life and inspire millions of people.

Speaker 18 TikTok Live gives every creator a stage to unleash their talent and build their own communities.

Speaker 16 This year's Live Fest is your chance to show the world what you can do.

Speaker 20 You could have a shot at taking home real trophies and walking down the red carpet at their annual awards ceremony.

Speaker 9 So whether you're just starting out on TikTok or already growing your community, check out hashtag LiveFest 2025 on TikTok to find out how you can be part of this global celebration.

Speaker 22 Let's Elevate Live together.

Speaker 1 Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? Wash away your worries with Anibay. AniBay is the only machine-washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget-friendly prices.

Speaker 1 That's right, sofas start at just $699.

Speaker 1 Enjoy a no-risk experience with pet-friendly, stain-resistant, and changeable slip covers made with performance fabric.

Speaker 1 Experience cloud-like comfort with high-resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity, and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime.

Speaker 1 Shop washable sofas.com for early Black Friday savings up to 60% off site-wide, backed by a 30-day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund.

Speaker 1 No return shipping or restocking fees every penny back up right now at washable sofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply

Speaker 2 can we do a little zoron talk since you're the house you're gonna be the house lib for the day where are you at on it i just i just want to an open uh do you have concerns uh opportunity are you excited or uh both you have do you have complex feelings about them yeah i i i think i'm a little bit more on the like like let's let this guy cook side of things things than you and your co-hosts at the Bullwork.

Speaker 2 He was at Nowadays, you get excited. He's at the hipster hangout in Brooklyn.
Everybody got a lot of cheers.

Speaker 4 Oh, man. I'm in Washington, D.C.
We don't even know about hipsters anymore. Washington, D.C.
is

Speaker 4 so over. It's cooked.
So I could see a literal implementation of everything on the Zoron agenda not working out so well. I really do hope

Speaker 4 he is prepared, like has thought through what he's going to do, not just about how the general election race is going to go, but like the corrupt and abusive act of retribution that he and the city are going to come under because he is,

Speaker 4 in the right wing's imagination, a perfect foil for them, and they want to make him famous.

Speaker 4 So he needs to be likable and charming and clean, you know, uncorrupted, so that when that comes, like he's people watching are like, wait, that guy seems totally nice and normal.

Speaker 4 Why are they abusing him? And also, like, what are you going to do to protect the people there if Trump comes after them? So that's my, that's my reservation about him becoming mayor.

Speaker 4 I don't know that there's anything he can do about it.

Speaker 4 And it's like, I feel a little bit like it's victim blaming to put that all on him because honestly, like, it should be a scandal that the Justice Department or whatever might come after the mayor of New York and the federal government might crush New York City because they want to raise the profile of somebody who calls himself a Democratic Socialist.

Speaker 4 It's like, it's pretty gross.

Speaker 2 Have you fought with with Matt about his Eric Adams, his quasi-Eric Adams endorsement over? No, no,

Speaker 4 I think Matt is being a pretty relative to a lot of other Democrats who are in full Mom Dani freakout mode. I think Matt has been pretty mature about the situation.
Like,

Speaker 4 I think his view is basically like, I don't think this is going to work out great as a substantive matter, but I hope I'm wrong.

Speaker 4 And that the Democrats who are trying to like simultaneously claim to be big tent Democrats and also trying to push Mom Dani out of the party should shut the fuck up.

Speaker 4 And I think that that is like, that is a good place for people in the moderate camp to be.

Speaker 2 This takes us back to that original triangle question about what the Democrat solution is, you know, and like how did it like, is it,

Speaker 2 you know, you got to pivot to the right on cultural issues, you got to pivot to the left on economics, or you got your, the vibe's got to be different, right?

Speaker 2 Like, and he, and he's kind of two of the three in those potential options. And I wonder, like, where, what's your answer to the question of like, could there have been a,

Speaker 2 I don't even know, I don't want to brand their politics, like a Pete, like somebody with Pete's politics that like ran that got the same level of excitement?

Speaker 2 Like, like, was, was it necessary for Zoron to be a Democratic socialist to have that level of enthusiasm in New York? Or was his campaign,

Speaker 2 you know, was the strategy that he employed enough that you could have glommed on a different ideology onto it and it still would have worked?

Speaker 4 I'm going to speak from intuition because

Speaker 4 I suspect that Mamdani would have won on the same platform if he had never been a part of the Democratic Socialists. But I'm not sure that his margin would have been as big.

Speaker 4 But it's possible that my instincts are wrong and that he would have actually done even better if he had just been like a progressive who was young, charming, literate online, same charisma, same star power, just he thought of himself as like an FDR Democrat instead of a Democratic socialist.

Speaker 4 But in an enclave like New York City, it might have helped him. That's just where my gut is on that.
I think Pete shows it on a national level. You can be more mainline and

Speaker 4 have serious reservations about socialism or people who identify as democratic socialists and still get big crowds and still inspire a lot of people.

Speaker 4 Like, I don't know if Pete would win a presidential election, but he can definitely fill an auditorium.

Speaker 2 That's the thing that worries me about Zoran. It's like, and I love Pete, but then like Pete appeals to a certain demo.
It's like,

Speaker 2 ugh. And what I don't want is like 27, 25-year-old progressives to like become, it's like AOC or Zoron or nothing.

Speaker 2 You know, like the only way to excite me is through that, because I think that AOC and Zoron totally work in New York. Whether he'll be a good mayor or not remains to be seen.

Speaker 2 I've hashed out my various reservations about him, the things that I think that he did well. But like, obviously, Zoron or AOC are not going to win

Speaker 2 Wisconsin. I think we can in 2028, at least.
I don't know what the future holds.

Speaker 2 Maybe, you know, I guess Donald Trump could send us into a Great Depression and AOC could win Wisconsin, potentially, I would say.

Speaker 2 Zoran can't run for president. But I guess my question is,

Speaker 2 that's the thing that worries me about him more than any actual specific policies. Like that, something, like New York is resilient.
New York's had plenty of bad mayors.

Speaker 2 If he ends up being a bad mayor, New York will be fine four years later.

Speaker 2 But like, I worry that like young Democrats like really kind of glom on to this and like anything else seems like a sellout and it's hard to like channel any sort of excitement that crosses the whole breadth of the party.

Speaker 2 Like that's like the meta concern I have about the Mamdani mania.

Speaker 4 I can see that. I think that a lot of Democrats, any young Democrats who try to emulate Mamdani in

Speaker 4 cities or districts or whatever that don't have New York City style politics are going to find out pretty quickly that it's not a universal thing.

Speaker 4 And, you know, then there are going to be others like Kat Abu Gazella is running a very progressive district. Like that might work.

Speaker 4 I do think that AOC and Mom Dani have a kind of star power that is a little bit hard to, like,

Speaker 4 maybe they could become president because presidential elections tend to be like closely run things and they're super charismatic.

Speaker 4 But if you tried to run somebody with Joe Biden levels of charisma on that platform, it might not work out so great.

Speaker 4 I wrote in my Tuesday piece, it's about like what policy and politics can do about the epidemic of loneliness. And

Speaker 4 the spoiler behind the paywall is that I was like, the way I would like to see Democrats learn from.

Speaker 2 Thank you for providing the Bulwark listeners some behind the paywall material.

Speaker 2 We appreciate it.

Speaker 4 Reward me with your subscriptions.

Speaker 4 The way I would like to see Democrats learn from Mom Dani more than just like,

Speaker 4 let's say we're Democratic Socialists just like he did, and it'll be magic, and we'll win our primaries and then lose the general election, is like, what would Zoran Mamdani have run on if the animating issue in that race had been loneliness as opposed to cost of living obviously those are overlapping issues but and I think that instead of being like here's a 10-point plan for loneliness he would have said four-day work week and it's like that would have been the thing that that people glommed on to like yes he gets it like we're lonely because we're exhausted because we work too hard and we need like leaders we don't have a labor movement that'll do this for us we need leaders who will champion something like that i mean it could be be a bunch of other things.

Speaker 4 It could be like taxing the tech oligarchy for mining our brains for attention and making us miserable.

Speaker 2 Come on, keep giving me one I might like. All right.
The second one was better than the first one. Where do we go?

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 4 Spend that money on

Speaker 4 like community investment, but for so that people can congregate and party and do extracurricular activities that are subsidized and that you can walk to.

Speaker 4 And like you could do that. Obviously, that's not just an urban thing, like hunting excursions in rural America, like like

Speaker 4 things so that you're hanging out with people instead of on your screen.

Speaker 4 But ultimately, like I think it's mostly having somebody who has charisma, who makes clear through the way they campaign that they care about this and that they're like in this to

Speaker 4 heal the country's soul. Like that will just

Speaker 4 attract people and then like give them a leg up in the primary. And it's an important issue.

Speaker 4 And so like, not how would the Center for American Progress or Harvard take on the loneliness problem, but how would Mom Donnie do it? And I think that something good might come out of that.

Speaker 4 And, like, it doesn't have to be the ideas I wrote about in my piece by any stretch.

Speaker 2 I'm trying to think about, but I'm trying to think about socialist policies for

Speaker 2 loneliness I could get behind. How about like capping the amount of data you could use in a given day on your phone, forcing them to jailbreak phones in order to be on, you know, to be on,

Speaker 2 you know, the more data. You can text, you can call, but, you know, you've only got three hours.

Speaker 4 That's very anti-abundance of you.

Speaker 4 I would come out about this in ways where

Speaker 4 one thing I think is that if

Speaker 4 anyone who cared about this issue decided to run at it by saying, we're going to take away your phones, the people who are made miserable by their phones would be furious.

Speaker 4 They'd be like, don't you dare take away my phone.

Speaker 4 If you tell people like, we're not here to take away your phones, but we all kind of agree that the phones are making us unhappy.

Speaker 4 And so here's some resources that make it easier for you to choose to be off your phone or off your screen or off your gaming console or whatever. And

Speaker 4 I think that there are probably

Speaker 4 like policy is going to be like a so-so lever for this. But

Speaker 4 a political leader who tries to elevate the issue, make enemies of the people who are making us miserable, that'll resonate. I think there are a lot of people who are.

Speaker 2 I like this. I'm worried that it's like a heat-seeking missile targeted towards elder millennials who remember life before the phone.
And

Speaker 2 maybe it might not be as popular with 27-year-olds.

Speaker 2 But I'm hoping we, this, as like you, I'm anti-Democrats obsessing over focus groups and polls and stuff and just fucking like speak from your gut and have passion and let it rip.

Speaker 2 Like it's like the right thing to do in 90% of the cases. This might be one where like, yeah, I don't know.
I want to see some data on it.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And I mean, like what you said about our age is actually a point I wanted to make is like the one the one way Mom Donnie is a bad

Speaker 2 representative.

Speaker 4 Representative of this

Speaker 4 attention problem, this loneliness problem, is that his campaign was super online and super algorithm forward or whatever. But I think that

Speaker 4 what you were saying about people our age is like related to this problem Democrats have communicating because like Mom Donnie, AOC, Maxwell Frost, maybe a couple others, like... Right.

Speaker 4 They didn't have to adapt. Like the internet happened when we were kids.
So we're the generation that was like really cavalier about phones and the internet.

Speaker 4 Like we posted photos of ourselves pissed drunk online, got in problem.

Speaker 4 This was like late 2000s, early 2010s. And we didn't really feel the distinction between private and public life.
Most elected Democrats are older than us, and so the problem was even worse for them.

Speaker 4 And then so when we all started realizing that this was like a double-edged sword or like a

Speaker 4 like everything we did online was in some way public, we all kind of clammed up and everyone got scared of saying anything out of context because who knows when the cameras are rolling or whatever.

Speaker 4 And like Mamdani and AOC didn't really need to adapt in the same way to that change. That was just life for them.

Speaker 4 So they're super comfortable in all realms of public life, like giving a speech or talking to a stranger on the street.

Speaker 4 You know, they're not like liable to do something stupid, like be drunk or say something vulgar, but they're just really comfortable in their own skin.

Speaker 4 And I don't know how you teach somebody who's our age, let alone in their 50s, 60s, 70s, to have that because the internet really did come around in our lifetimes, but it would, I think, help address some of these problems.

Speaker 4 And then once you have that, I think that, a lot of the other, like, how should we campaign on any issue, including loneliness or the attention economy, becomes more, it just becomes easier because once you know what you believe, you also know how to articulate it in an internet-friendly way.

Speaker 2 All right. The sub-stack is off message.
I'll I'll keep reading it. Next time you do something really good, you can come back on the podcast.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 it'll be a carrots and sticks treatment of your newsletter writing when I'm sitting in the back. Sitting in the back of your head.

Speaker 2 Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bullware Podcast, and we'll see y'all then. Peace.

Speaker 28 I don't need no more distractions, but I'm gassed to see what might happen.

Speaker 28 One basket grabbed me all access. Two glasses filled with old-fashioned.
Tree leaves, Luigi, green fashion. Drinks and seaweed, you high, I got snacks.
Four keeps, I play like Maurice.

Speaker 28 My bitch, a little freak, she plays me like candles. G5 LB from Los Candlesticks.
Sick mind, I think I need counseling. Seven times, they phones and bad habits.

Speaker 28 Nine lies and speaks, no catfish. Tin man, a heart is what I'm after.

Speaker 28 One and one, the force is like magnet. Hope twelve, don't stop me in traffic.
Bad luck, I don't need that. Thirteen, I was playing drums for the Baptist.
Count on you and you count on me.

Speaker 28 Numbers don't lie when the truth is a lie. They're just set your face.

Speaker 28 That's you and me, baby.

Speaker 28 Come be my one and only.

Speaker 2 The Bullard podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 29 If your multiple myeloma treatment isn't working or your cancer has come back, Learn more about CAR T cell therapy at discovercar T.com.

Speaker 29 Then ask your doctor if CAR T-cell therapy might be an option for you.

Speaker 4 Ah, greetings from my bath, festive friends.

Speaker 2 The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money, getting 5% cash back when I pay in four.

Speaker 4 No fees, no interest. I used it to get this portable spa with jets.

Speaker 2 Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body. Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal.
Save the offer in the app. Ends 1231, see paypal.com/slash promo terms.

Speaker 2 Points can be redeemed for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal Inc.
and NMLS 910-457.

Speaker 30 Toyota's all-in all-season with another year of Toyota Game Day Giveaways.

Speaker 30 The official automotive partner of the NFL is giving fans the chance to win epic prizes like Brock Purdy's favorite Toyota Sequoia, NFL Shop Gear, and more.

Speaker 30 Play for free by predicting which big plays will happen during the second half of every Sunday night football game. This is going to be fun.
Visit toyota.com/slash NFL now to learn more.

Speaker 30 Toyota, let's go places.

Speaker 2 No purchase necessary, void where prohibited. Ends on 2826.

Speaker 30 Open to legal residents of the 50 United States and DC 18 and over. For complete details, how to enter prizes and official rules, visit ToyotasGamedayGiveaways.com.