Tommy Vietor: Trump's Security State

What does Zen really give you?

Not just smoke-free nicotine satisfaction, but also real freedom to do more of what you love, when and where you want to do it.

Why bring Zinn along for the ride?

Because America's number one nicotine pouch opens up all the possibilities of right now.

With Zen, you don't just find freedom, you keep finding it.

Find your Zen.

Learn more at Zinn.com.

Warning: this product contains nicotine.

Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

At Bright Horizons, infants discover first steps, toddlers discover independence, and preschoolers discover bold ideas.

Our dedicated teachers and discovery-driven curriculum nurture curiosity, inspire creativity, and build lasting confidence so your child is ready to take on the world.

Come visit one of our Bright Horizons centers in the Bay Area and see for yourself how we turn wonder into wisdom.

Schedule your visit today at brighthorizons.com.

Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast.

I'm your host, Tim Miller.

I am Punchy.

I was up early.

I've had a lot of caffeine.

We're taping late.

And we've got a troublemaker with us.

He was a graduate of Kenyon College.

He was the van driver for then Senator Obama in 2007.

And now he's the co-host of a couple of podcasts called Pod Save America and Pod Save the World.

It's Tommy Vitar.

What's up, man?

Buddy, great to see you.

You and I were both up early.

Me because my children were tripping away in the nanette.

You because you were covering an FBI raid.

Yeah, we're covering the FBI raid, but it's important to bring that to you, you know, because I want you to be prepared for the podcast.

I texted you.

Let's pull this up.

Let's actually get a time stamp on this.

I texted you this morning with a link to the news that we were breaking at the bulwark about John Bolton's house being raided at 632 central 432 pacific you replied within 10 minutes yeah it was not what was happening with that i was up i was making coffee i just sometimes you're awake and you just gotta you gotta just power through your podcast needs a new like a sleep aid sponsor of some kind because that is way too early all right well the news referenced donald trump's

what national security advisor from his first term the man with the mustache john bolton uh his house was raided this morning, first

reported right here by the bulwark.

Our friend Ben Wittis was on site, later confirmed by the New York Post and others,

more regime-friendly outlets, that it was an FBI raid.

In fact, he was being targeted for...

national security concerns, they say.

It was a national security probe.

I believe it was ABC has, and Benny Johnson, another crack reporter, has that it's related to the classified documents issue from 2020, where he put some classified material material in his book.

Maybe that hadn't been approved through the process.

I don't know if that's the kind of thing that merits a home raid, but I was wondering what your reactions were bright and early this morning.

Yeah, I mean, my first reaction is, if you're watching this and you're not a subscriber to the bulwark on YouTube, do so because these guys were on the scene with breaking news.

That's why you need to support independent media.

Thank you.

They're telling you stories no one else is.

So subscribe to the bulwark on YouTube and also become a Bulwark Plus subscriber because you get lots of great content.

I'm actually dead serious.

I'm not kissing your ass.

Like, the Bulwark's doing awesome work.

I love all the journalists you guys have added to the roster.

I'm like literally begging you for contact information for Will Summer every other day or somebody on the team.

So, anyway, we're doing our best.

Done with that part.

You're doing okay, too.

It makes me uncomfortable because I usually make fun of you when I talk about your outlets.

I know there's like an asymmetry, but on the actual news.

I'm feeling up.

It is, first of all, so this is a case probably

from 2020.

Yeah.

And

they had to execute a search warrant five years later.

That's what happened here.

This was the urgent matter we're talking about.

This information that John Bolton has is so dangerous that it might get leaked into the world, even though we think it might have already been in his book that they needed to raid his house and the cash patel had to tweet about it.

That's what we're led to believe.

And that Pam Bondi tweeted about it with the statement, America's safety isn't negotiable.

America's safety was at threat, I guess, if there was not a dawn raid of John Bolton's home for five-year-old material.

Also, Tim, look, John Bolton, I don't agree agree with his politics.

He could be kind of a prick.

Seems like a smart guy.

Do you think that Bolton, knowing this case was still looming in the background, seeing Donald Trump get re-elected, wouldn't like bust out the shredder?

I would have.

I mean, that's the more nefarious version.

It's good to know that you're shredding documents tight, but I, oh, yeah.

You know, John Bolton's lawyer couldn't have worked with their lawyers and they said, okay, hey, you know, we think you might have some documents.

That's how this stuff is worked out usually.

Like,

cause, you know, they'll all do the what about about Mar-a-Lago stuff.

The reason why Mar-a-Lago was raided because they went through that normal process.

The Biden administration asked them for materials, they said that they would give it, they didn't, they stonewalled them, then they were caught lying about the fact that they weren't giving the materials, they refused to give them, and you know, then eventually, you know, they raided Mar-a-Lago.

Like, this was not, by all accounts, not that, right?

Like, this was a situation that was kind of adjudicated actually five years ago.

And now they felt like, you know, it's just hard to think about any even fake rationale for this other than we're trying to intimidate regime opponents.

And this one was an opportunity since there was already an open investigation into it.

Yeah, and look, in the Mar-a-Lago case, these classified documents were sitting in a room like next to the shitter at a club that we know had been penetrated by like Chinese spies a couple times and it's full of foreign nationals and anyone who wants can buy their way in and get access to Trump.

So there was a real kind of national security concern, these documents sitting around.

Lots of people going through cougars, Chinese spies, anybody else.

You know, to your point about John Bolton being a prick, I don't know that he's having a lot of parties.

Like the Georgetown Cocktail Party circuit didn't really roll through John Bolton's house.

No.

I think he was kind of a private man.

And until recently, he had a security detail who might prevent these kind of espionage matters from happening at his house, but then Donald Trump got rid of that.

So, you know, lots of layers to this thing.

I wonder, Tim, if this isn't...

The book was published, right?

So to the extent the Trump administration was worried about classified information being in the book, I don't believe that they were.

I think they just thought the book was going to be embarrassing.

That ship has sailed.

I wonder if it wasn't just kind of handwritten notes, because just for listeners, like if you're in a classified meeting and you take notes, those notes are considered classified.

Now, John Bolton would have gone through a process with the various intelligence agencies to clear everything he wrote before he published it, but maybe they're saying the notes were shouldn't have been.

So, how did that work?

So, like, after you were the van driver, you did rise to being, you know, spokesman for the national security team for President Obama.

So, you like, I've not, I've not been in those meetings.

Like, what happens?

Like, you're taking notes, you come out,

is there a dude with a burn bag there asking to confiscate your notes?

Is it a trust system, honor system?

No, it's entirely a trust system.

I mean, well, there's some documents that are so sensitive that they are given to you at the meeting and then taken back by, you know, the various like CIA person there.

Frankly, those are the kinds of documents we saw at Mar-a-Lago.

Like, if you look back at the photos, some of those cover pages with like bright red with stripes, like those are intelligence products that came out of the NSA or the CIA or someplace that are code word sensitivity, which means it's not like not even top secret.

It's another layer above that where you have to be read into the compartment to be allowed to have access to this information.

But if you're John Bolton and you just walk into a national security meeting with your little binder or your little notebook and you're just writing stuff down, like that just goes and sits in your office.

But when you leave, none of that comes with you.

When you go home.

Unless you get it cleared.

Yeah.

When you go home at night or when you leave the administration.

Got it.

We do have to rely on Benny Johnson for our reports now.

It's like Men in Black, the real news is in the National Enquirer.

It is widely known that Bolton mishandled and took classified information for use in his book after he failed to get approval for publication.

The raid of his residence comes after investigation.

So that's...

And they're not even claiming it's something else.

No.

No.

So

this is like facially absurd that his house needed to be raided over this.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are about just like...

the degree of alarm about kind of the broader chilling effect.

Are you seeing this as very bad one-off targeting of somebody that spoke out against Trump or kind of a first blow in what a broader campaign that they're going to be trying to look into?

Feels like a first blow.

I mean, listen, I think that Donald Trump has a very specific list of enemies.

Cash Patel helpfully laid out a lot of them for us in his book, I believe.

And if I were someone who testified against Trump

as part of the January 6th committee or something, this would send a chill up my spine.

And, you know, maybe it's not classified information, but we're also going after people at the Fed for mortgage fraud.

I mean, they're finding some novel ways right now to punish any perceived enemies.

Do you hear from people?

There are a lot of careers in the national security world, and I guess it's been a minute since you were in there.

I mean, there were the big, bold names that, you know, they're now targeting, right?

People that are on Cash Patel's enemies list.

And then subordinate to that, they're like people that worked on these investigations who are basically being run out of these institutions.

They're not being investigated, but they're being pushed out of their jobs.

And then there's kind of another category of people who've just sort of been around who are career experts who maybe were there you worked with and then stayed through Trump One and stayed through Biden and stayed through, you know.

Have you heard from any like what the what the feeling is among people that have been sort of involved in all this?

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of fear.

It's worth saying that the punishment is also extended to stripping of security clearances.

And to your point, like initially it was like John Brennan and kind of high-profile names, but Tulsi Gabber just did like 35, 36 more people recently.

It all came out via, I believe, a letter tweeted by Laura Loomer.

I think this is how this was disclosed.

And it included people who hadn't had a clearance since like 2021, who are like, okay, you're stripping away something I no longer have.

So I do think like that kind of stuff.

does send a chill down the spine of anyone at the CIA or the State Department or the intelligence community.

I mean, there was a report that Tulsi Gabbard was trying to gather together all the sort of internal intelligence community messaging systems data so they could search it for like, I guess, leakers or loyalty or something.

I mean, can you imagine a worse idea than pulling together a database of the most sensitive conversations ever had by the intelligence community so the Chinese could come find it?

Yeah.

So I pay Grok to

scrub that.

Grok that, you know, just two minutes ago declared itself a neo-Nazi.

I guess the other context here is sort of on the potential next steps.

Like, do you think your former boss, Barack Obama, is shaking in his boots right now?

I'm guessing no.

I think the Supreme Court has led him to believe that he has broad immunity thanks to Donald Trump.

I understand he's a former president.

I think he's not totally following the George W.

Bush model of like sitting out of politics completely.

He's campaigning around elections and stuff.

I do wish the Obama office response to that whole thing had just been like, man, whatever's in the Epstein files must have been bad, period, send, you know, like, like play ball a little more, right?

Like, we should not pretend this is on the level.

No, it's not on the level.

And that's, and I took, we talked about this a little bit earlier this week, but like, how do you navigate that balance between like, there's some absurdity in this and like it's clownish, it's ridiculous for like the attorney general to talk about how this raid was like necessary for America's safety.

Their threats of Obama against Obama are clownish for sure.

And then like on the other hand, I mean, a lot of these guys are clowns.

And you covered it for Pods of the World.

Like Erdogan's kind of a clown.

Orban's kind of a clown, right?

And like you get into this place where

people,

they are scary clowns.

People get afraid, right?

It has like real ramifications on the choices people make and their careers and lives and like what they're willing to do for the country, right?

Like how do you sort of navigate that?

Yeah, the guy in it was like ripping arms off of little kids and stuff and, you know, steering all the boats float.

I think you guys, I don't want to go full JVL on you, but I think you guys brought in some of the necessary historical perspective here, which is like Hitler was viewed as a clown.

Mussolini was kind of a buffoon.

Like you can be a buffoon and an evil buffoon and use the tools of government in truly evil ways.

So like I'm not saying Trump is Hitler.

Like I think I think we all sound silly if we jump right to that.

Well like Erdogan, like I don't know.

I don't want the country to become Turkey either.

Like there's a lot of bad steps between us and Nazi Germany.

Yeah or Venezuela, right?

Like Maduro is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but you know, he's clinging to power for a very long time.

And so I think it is very concerning.

I think once the power of the state is enormous and Donald Trump has filled this administration with a bunch of people who have been thinking for a long time about creative ways to use that power to punish Trump's enemies and their own enemies.

And that's what makes me a little worried because, you know, Tim, you know, you and I both have gone a few rounds with Dan Bongino and his former iteration as a Twitter troll.

Cat and cash.

Yeah, with Minecraft head and as a podcaster.

And, you know, the other day when I saw that he was layered and now there's a co-co-deputy director of the FBI, I found that quite funny.

And I tweeted, making fun of him.

And I was like, should I tag this guy or not?

Because he can make one call and make my life a lot more complicated.

But I did because I'm reckless and stupid.

But I think about it.

No, because you have courage.

You're reckless and stupid and courage.

No, but like, that's, that's what, like, these are kinds of questions that we weren't asking in this country before.

You know what I mean?

Like, back when we were on other sides and you were working at Obama's NSC and I was like trolling you or Liz or anybody.

Like, I wasn't like, ooh, I'm worried.

I'm really worried that John Brennan might come after me now.

Like, if I said, you know, like, just the, the fact that that thought crosses your mind as a change.

I don't know, man.

I don't, I did my rant on Monday about the, the distractions, and you bring up the Epstein thing.

It's easy to make the joke.

Like, I don't think that John Bolton was on the Epstein list.

I don't think that's his cup of tea.

I think he has some other, I think John Bolton has some other vices.

Yeah.

So I think it's easy to bring up the distraction joke.

But to me, it's like, this is the core of their program.

Like, I mean, maybe a secondary benefit of this is it gets Epstein out of the news.

But like, the core of their program is revenge and consolidation of power.

Correct.

And I don't want people to lose sight of that, I guess, is my main message.

Yeah,

I agree with you completely.

Like, I think during that two weeks of sort of fever-pitched conversation about the Epstein files, when Donald Trump kept hitting the Barack Obama did treason button, that was a clear effort at distraction.

But Donald Trump sending troops to the street, like that is his core message.

That is something he wants to talk about.

It's law and order.

Dems are wimps.

I'm cleaning up the cities.

Let's fight about it.

You know what doesn't belong at your Labor Day plans getting burned by your old wireless bill.

Well, some of you guys are probably like half of the bulwark staff on vacation right now at the beach or

doing three-day weekends or at Disneyland, unlike me, slaving away here in my hole.

You don't want your wireless plan on those vacations to hold you back.

That's why I encourage the switch to Mint Mobile.

Say bye-bye to your overpriced wireless plans, jaw-dropping monthly bills, and unexpected overages.

Mint Mobile is here to rescue you.

All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.

Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts.

Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of unlimited service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month.

Bringing over all your contacts is important.

Like for me, for example, I've got a lot of contacts from my previous life.

So, you know, if you're ever looking for the cell phone of some random 2000s-era Republican, I can maybe help you.

One time, I was on with today's guest, Tommy Vitor, and he cold called Sean Hannity.

That was back when we were young and troublemakers, having fun.

I think that was 2016.

Sean answered.

It wasn't a pleasant call.

Anyway, it's important to be able to transfer your contacts over, and you can do that with Mint Mobile.

This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank.

Get this new customer offer and your three-month unlimited wireless plan for just $15 a month at mintmobile.com/slash bulwark.

That's mintmobile.com/slash bulwark.

Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month.

Limited time new customer offer for first three months only.

Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan.

Taxes and fees extra.

See Mint Mobile for details.

To that point, troops in the streets.

This is coming across an AP.

We've got a lot of breaking news today, real news.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has ordered the National Guard troops patrolling the streets of Washington will be armed.

Good.

That announced was that today, and they've been kind of discussing that.

National Guard troops include troops from a bunch of red states, including my state, Louisiana, has sent 135 guys there because we don't have anything better for them to do during hurricane season than sit outside the shake shack at Union Station.

What do you make of

the threat assessment with the D.C.

takeover, military takeover?

I find it chilling.

I mean, I view this from a perspective of someone who lives in Los Angeles, and we had our own made-up troop deployment for a very long time.

And I remember talking to Gavin Newsom about it, and he was so pissed off because these were National Guard members from California who were taken off duty to like prevent wildfires or do things that really mattered.

And suddenly we're just like kind of sleeping in random buildings in Washington, D.C., to deal with protests that had gone away like three weeks earlier.

They're doing perimeter service around like park rates.

Random government buildings.

Yeah.

And so I look at the D.C.

thing, and like I can squint at it.

And and in one way I just see like, you know, the political fight he wants to pick, right?

Which is Dems are weak on crime and he's going to clean up the city and come at me, bro, if you disagree.

But then I look at it a different way and I'm like, is this, you know, like...

just kind of paving the way for martial law or, you know, January 6th, 2.0?

Like, and the fact that all these other governors are so horny to get in on the deal and they want to send their National Guard guys to Washington is

pretty gross.

And look, also, most of these National guard men and women they don't want to be there they don't want to be doing this they have jobs and families for humans yeah you know we're in back to school time you're taking these folks like what if they're a single parent which is true in some of these cases right like it's like they got to go find child care now and they're going sitting on the mall yeah you know in dc it's crazy it your point about the red state governors being horny for this like that that's to me the alarming part is like they're horny for it nothing has happened yeah like literally like the the pretext for this was nothing essentially like big

mr balls got manhandled

Big Balls was manhandled in DuPont Circle, which has never happened before.

Big Balls got knocked around on 14th Street.

And it's like, not great.

I'm not for that.

That's bad.

Like, the cops arrested the guys that did it.

The comps were like there on the scene in five minutes.

It wasn't like there was this, you know, it wasn't like the police weren't doing their job.

It was bad that this happened.

It was like police are.

So, so that was the pretext for this.

You know, man, a lot of bad shit can happen between now and 2028.

If these guys are sending in the troops because Big Balls got manhandled, like, what is going to happen if there are actual riots in one of these cities?

What's going to happen if there is, you know, other unrest, right?

Yes, I'm very worried about that.

I mean, there's a lot of conversation you hear these days about, like, why aren't there protests?

You know, where did all the, where did all the people so worried about Gaza go who are protesting under Biden and who are not now?

And it's like, well, now there is a real threat of deportation or having your visa remote or being arrested or beaten up by some ICE guy and thrown into some, you know, administrative purgatory for God knows how long long before you can get out.

And Tim, the thing I think about too is, you know,

it would be nice if we lived in a world where if something bad happened on Donald Trump's watch, he would get blamed for it.

But I think

that we have a lot of evidence to suggest that's not what will happen.

And if there were a terrorist attack, I think his approval would people would rally around

toughness and God knows what he would do.

So yes, I worry a lot about that.

Yes, terrorist attack, right?

Like, I mean, that's what's your message to like your Dem, you know, candidate buddies a call?

Because I, I, like, i make fun of the consultant speak and the caution you know and i i think they deserve to be made fun of at times i also understand like the notion of like

we don't want to have our hair on fire about the stuff in dc we want to demonstrate we care about crime people too people care about crime people don't want crime running rampant in dc

so i should caveat my comments on this by saying i want a secure border and i want crime and i am against crime in D.C.

too.

Is that the right approach, do you think, or not?

I mean, I just think there's an honest answer that

you can go to, which is, I care about crime too, but the way you deal with crime in a city like Washington is not to deploy the U.S.

military who have absolutely no training in law enforcement.

Like, this is self-evidently crazy.

They're in the wrong places.

They're not in high crime neighborhoods.

They're sitting at Union Station.

They're guarding the salad bar at the Sparrow.

It's a joke, right?

Like, call out what he's doing as a stunt, which clearly it is.

It's not a distraction, but it's a stunt.

It's not designed to actually solve a problem.

It's to get a story about the problem.

Yeah.

The stunt is one route.

Another route is to talk about it as if it is a massive scheme by the federal government and the jackbooted thugs to take away your rights.

And one person that's been on that beat is a guy named Tim Dillon.

I know who you listen to.

Tim Dylan is a

common MAGA comedian, it's probably wrong, but kind of a culturally conservative comedian that has some MAGA tendencies at times.

He had dinner.

He had dinner with J.D.

Vance recently.

So

his show has been interesting the last couple of weeks.

I know you've been monitoring like I have.

I want to play one clip from him earlier this week.

They've already got the cops on the street that are, I mean, that are not cops or that are the military.

They've already got the National Guard on the street.

They already have all your information in DC.

And now they just get to decide what is and isn't over the line.

That should scare everybody.

You're fucking nuts, dude.

If this doesn't scare you, you're nuts.

All of these things that Alex Jones, you know, and I've had Alex on, I like Alex, but all these things that Alex Jones was like worried about when I listened to him in the late 90s, early 2000s are coming to fruition.

Military in the street, the FEMA camp, the tech.

company that monitors everything, the surveillance.

This is all of that.

Take out the aside about how he has to talk about how he likes Alex.

It's kind of like how I talk about you when I'm on other podcasts.

If I'm disagreeing with something, you say, no, I like Tommy.

It's okay.

I like Tommy.

We have some disagreements over the years, but I like Tommy.

Good idea.

So he has to caveat that he likes Alex.

But if you take the Alex out,

couldn't a Democratic senator have said that?

Yeah, look, I think voices like Tim Dylan are really important because there is a crossover between the audience that listens to Tim and Alex Jones and Joe Rogan.

And I think it kind of, he's helping you sort the the difference, which is Alex Jones actually wants the FEMA camps in service of keeping liberals out of power, right?

Like there's an authoritarian tendency there.

Tim Dylan is like, this is not what we signed up for.

I didn't want like ICE agents rampaging around cities.

I listed that whole episode this morning, Tim, like in preparation for this.

You had a lot of time.

I had a lot of time this morning.

He's this whole bit about how, like, what are you podcasters doing that will stand the test of time?

And he goes, fascism, welcoming in fascism, which is really funny.

And then he had a whole bit about people getting fired at La Quinta hotels because of automation, and their only job left is to join ICE.

So then everyone in the country joins ICE, and there's one immigrant family left, and we all try to deport them, and then we deport each other so that Mark Zuckerberg and Peter Thiel can divide up the world.

Like he is calling out the game and calling out the bullshit.

And a friend of mine who is like an avid reader of the Joe Rogan Reddit and kind of understanding that world sent me this incredible video, which I actually pitched to your guy, Will Summer.

I don't know if he'll do anything with it.

There was an hour and a half takedown of rogan's show and how it has evolved and gone from like a normal comedian who is sort of poking holes at power and worried about things in the world to like someone who is constantly welcoming on the worst politicians the worst tech people and kind of a part of the problem because they feed his paranoia i saw some of this it's very long this video is very long someone else sent this to me yeah i watched a couple minutes of it yeah we'll put it in the show notes for if somebody wants to really nerd out this week and you got nothing better to do i'll i'll grab it i I watch for things like this.

I think it's really interesting when someone like a Tucker Carlson is calling out Trump for, you know, for bombing Iran, or someone like Tim Dylan is calling out Trump for this ICE FEMA overreach stuff.

Yeah.

I want to just go back to the substance of Tim Dylan's critique here, though, for a sec, because

one thing I've been wrestling with, which is

kind of this pickle the Democrats are in, which is like

nobody, not nobody, but only a minority of the country, a significant minority of the country is happy with how things are going, happy with the institutions, wants them protected, right?

Like if those are the only people voting for you, like you're not going to win a lot of elections outside the Northeast or people feel pretty happy with society up there,

your homeland.

Love it.

So what the Democrats need is candidates that can channel outsider credentials and themselves take on the mantle of going after power, going after the things that people don't think that they like.

Obama was, I think, benefited by this, a by just his identity, but also the Iraq War, right?

Had this like way to be an outsider, even, you know, and kind of channel some outsider cred.

And Democrats haven't really been able to do that the last three presidential cycles, right?

It's very much been, we're defending institutions for good reason, right?

Because Donald Trump is attacking these fucking institutions.

He's being a dick about it and like, and it's causing real harm.

And so that puts Democrats in this mind where they're like, well, no, but, you know, the FBI is doing some good things, you know?

And like the Democrats were having found themselves in this position, right?

Always defending these institutions.

That argument by Tim Dylan there, there could, there's no reason that couldn't come from like a libertarian left Democrat or like even a leftist kind of Democrat that's making the attack that's going out there like, these guys are the ones that are consolidating power.

These guys are the ones that are turning the fucking military and the FBI into a bunch of jackbooted thugs.

And with Palantir, they're stealing your data and they're, you know, giving shit away to the big tech executives that go to washington like that is a coherent outsidery message that a democrat could give

and i don't i don't know who the right vessel is for that but i don't know what do you make of that the tim dylan democrat i think that there's a real opportunity with like the tim dylan joe rogan world to peel off some of those voters or at least disenchant them with donald trump because you're right obama ran against washington i mean he had been a senator for like 30 seconds but he ran on the iraq war but also ran against hillary clinton who was like the avatar of all things Washington, right?

But I do think what you're talking about, like there is a ton of space for exactly the kind of message you're talking about, which is like, hey, have you guys heard of Palantir?

Are you good with them consolidating all of our data into one giant database so they can track everything we do?

That seems crazy to me.

The guy that started is currently doing four different sessions on the nature of the Antichrist, which is a little concerning.

Yeah, when you love your job, it's not work.

So he's doing that.

The Department of Homeland Security was a mistake.

It is too big.

It is sprawling.

It is an insane organization.

You could run on breaking it up in more limited government.

Some Republicans will pick up pieces of this, like, you know, Tom Massey, Rand Paul, et cetera.

But there should be a reform message in there for Democrats.

I don't know.

I don't, yeah.

I mean, shit, I like.

There were Democrats like this when we were growing.

I mean, they were the ones I didn't like, you know, because they're going after the Bush security state over this.

But go after the fucking Trump security state.

Like, I think that that's a totally legit message.

Anyway, okay, there you go.

Look, abolish ICE was an overreach.

Anytime you say, say, like, we should abolish something, I think you lead people to say, well, what do we replace it with?

Right.

And we've seen that with abolish the police, et cetera.

But picking out strands to attack ICE on is so, it seems to be so obvious to me.

Like, why are these guys wearing masks?

We should pass a federal law where they can't wear masks.

It's like, there's so many little things we could do like that.

Oh, Canada.

Hey, y'all.

We're going on tour this fall.

We're going up north.

I demanded it.

I wanted to support our Canadian listeners and friends being attacked by this administration.

So we're going to do the whole deal.

Mounties, Tim Hortons, maple syrup.

I'm going to be drinking Seagram's on stage.

Are Seagrams Canadian anymore?

I said that in the last episode, and I think they might have been bought by a multinational corporation.

Anyway, I'm going to have a Canadian cocktail on stage.

You guys can tell me what I should do.

And

yeah, we get to all be an allyship against our terrible mega president.

So come check out me, Sarah Longwell, Canada's favorite Sam Stein.

We're going to be in Toronto in September.

Want to see you there, especially if you're Canadian, but if you're American, you want to go support our friends up north and come hang?

Would like to see you too.

If you aren't up for stamping your passport, you can catch me, Sarah, and JBL in DC or New York City in October as well.

Anyone can grab tickets or more information now at thebulwark.com slash events.

They didn't tell me to tell you this in the ad read, but since you're a friend, since I'm looking up for you, I'm letting you know that I was looking at the pre-sales.

That Toronto ticket's going to be a hot ticket, baby.

So, if you want to go to Toronto, I'd jump on that now.

You should jump on all of them now, but Toronto in particular.

Take a look at your schedule, see if you can make it.

Hope to see you in Toronto.

Once again, it's thebulwark.com/slash events.

Another news item today: Alligator Alcatraz.

We've got a ruling.

Some good news.

Something happened.

Good.

A federal judge that was last night had a ruling prohibiting state and federal officials from bringing new detainees to the Everglades detention camp.

The ruling demanded that the state begin dismantling elements of the facility, including temporary fencing, lighting fixtures, and generators, among other equipment within 60 days.

I was reading the Washington Post story on this.

One thing I, and I knew it was bad, but I guess I just didn't realize the extent of it.

The site had no electricity.

Yes, I saw this too.

Yeah, so everything had to be powered by generators, including portable air conditioners.

Drinking and bathing water, clean water water had to be trucked in sewage trucked out and sewage trucked out like what in the fuck why in the middle of the everglades like this is it like i don't know i was just like imagining the 2035 like ai netflix movie about this and like the scenes of the guys whose job it is to take the sewage out of alligator alcatraz through the fucking everglades with alligators jumping at them like i like this is this is absolutely insane and insane and again i think goes you you could see a Tim Dillon-type voice crew like making fun of this and mocking this.

But what do you make of that news?

Well, so I look, obviously, Alligator Alcatraz's closing is good news.

I mean, it was just an abomination.

And I assume we should say that they will appeal.

The DeSantis, the DeSanctimonious Freaks say that they're going to appeal this.

They will appeal.

If it were a two-close, I think it was a good thing.

I did wonder reading the story, Tim.

I mean, look, I know there's a little bit of Republican DNA still left inside you.

There's like a little piece of you that wants to go to a cracker barrel right now and throw a trash can through the window because you're mad about their logo.

What did you make of this quote?

This brutal detention center was burning a hole in the fabric of life that supports our most iconic wetland and a whole host of endangered species, from majestic Florida panthers to wizened wood storks, said this person from the environmental group.

I mean, I do a lot of shit talking about the environmentalists on here because I still have, you know, I do still have some things here.

And

I do have a natural instinct to not care about the wizened wood stork.

That said,

one cheer for the environmentalists.

And environmental NIMBYism kind of finally does something.

After they took some strays yesterday, on yesterday's pod, they were the leaders on this, on this.

I will say this, though, like the Everglades, even Republicans, like Jeb and even DeSantis, actually, before this fucking, you know, stunt.

It was sort of like how Colorado Republicans, when I was growing up, like had like a little bit of a green streak because you wanted to protect the mountain.

You were like an outdoorsman.

You wanted to do skiing and hiking and right, all that sort of stuff.

Florida, like Republicans, like the everglades was like a point of pride right as like where they went you know took their kids and stuff and and so there was like everglade restoration was like a thing and so i don't know man i i just like even down there i would have thought that there might have been some blowback to this but that i think that was an elite i think it was like all these other things i think it was elite republican thing and most of the regular republicans in florida were like yeah give me my give me my alligator alcatraz hat give me my alligator hat which we chomping them migrants you know i don't know benny johnson one of these.

Yeah, no, I'm with you.

I know some Republicans who are kind of like conservation Republicans, right?

They want clean water and you do hunting and fishing, et cetera.

There's seven of those out there.

Yeah, there's a couple left.

Yeah, I didn't realize that alligator alcatraz had been built on a runway for this abandoned airport project.

It was supposed to be the biggest airport in the world, but it was blocked by Marjorie Stoneman Douglas on environmental grounds.

So I guess there is some history and some DNA of this whole facility being blocked because it's just an environmental disaster.

But yeah, I mean, look, this is, you know, I don't know.

I heard you talking about feeling like DeSantis is sort of in a nadir at the moment in terms of his political wins and losses.

And hopefully, this kind of adds to that downward slope.

Hopefully, so.

What about just the broader,

how about this fight?

Like, just as a political question, like, so maybe this gets shut down, right?

They're building another camp somewhere else in Florida.

We're building some here in Louisiana.

You know, and this is boon times for the private prison industry.

I just, I do feel like this is like, do people like that?

In the micro, they do, but I do feel like it's something that can be campaigned against.

Or is that, I don't know.

What do you think?

I have had the same thought and hope, which is that this is overreach.

And that when you're branding prisons, like Ron's going to move all these people maybe to another old prison in North Florida that they're now calling Deportation Depot.

When all these things are like branded and they're selling merch and Benny Johnson's doing live streams there.

I don't Some people like the merch.

I went to a Matt Gates event in the Panhandle last summer as part of the service journalism I do for all of you.

There were definitely some people there that would have been and some children actually even that would have been wearing the merch.

So like there are some people out there, but I think it's like a 35-40% or maybe there's 60% who sort of like, I don't know.

I do think we should deport the murderers, but like we don't have to like torture them.

We don't have to like let them get eaten by alligators.

And I don't think we should deport the really nice woman who

sells fruit down the street or whatever.

I think a lot of people are offended by that.

And does America want to be known for like our gleaming camps?

No.

That's just another thing.

I just, I don't think like there are people also still have this pride of it.

It's like, okay, well, what, what are the big programs that are happening right now in the Trump administration?

It's like we've got data centers.

that are taking up huge amount of electricity, rising bills of electricity costs.

So we've got these huge data centers and huge deportation camps.

Like that's what we're building.

It's time to build, Mark Andreessen said, like that is what we're building now.

Deportation camps and data centers.

Is that

the sign to me of like a particularly healthy society?

No, and it's just weird.

And also, I saw you make this point to our good friend Dean Kane.

Oh, yeah, Dean.

Our population is shrinking for the first time in God knows how long.

Aren't we like down like 1.5 million people this year because of all the deportations?

Like, that's not a healthy thing.

That's not a club we want to be in.

You made the point that you see that in places like Syria more often than the United States.

Yeah.

Dean's ability to move his face is also shrinking.

He has a limited range of motion in his face.

Also, one thing on that.

I saw you, you called him out for being an actor.

He got very sensitive about you saying that he was an untrained actor who wanted to be an ice agent.

And at one point, he asserted that he was also an NFL player.

But I believe he was a guy who went to Princeton who showed up at an NFL camp and got hurt.

and then never actually played.

I think you got to make the 53 roster to be an NFL player, Dean.

A little fact check for you there.

I'm just saying, look, I could never sniff the field, but I'm just saying, Dean.

What was your high school sport, tonnie uh football lacrosse football so did kenyon was there any

kenyon didn't have a football squadron kenyon had a football team the coach tried to recruit me and i told him um that i was small and slow and i didn't want to play and what in truth you just kind of wanted to get high instead uh-huh yeah we didn't we had fallball for lacrosse that was a lot more fun yeah yeah you know keg sarah was there sarah was more of a softball maybe yeah i mean sarah's like her build is a little bit more athletic she's a good player i think she's a good player yeah

all right uh what else did i have on our list i had something else on alligator all good i felt like i had something else to talk about we got way late all right let's talk about the democrats a little bit what your governor is gavin newsom there's been a lot of

gavin newsom agenist agenisti what's that word agony

over here uh we're sort of like i guess you got to hand it to him it's working it's working and i i don't i guess i don't know what i mean when i say it's working is it working like is it convincing anybody i don't know is it working in the sense that like he's giving Democrats and Democratic aligned and anti-Trump aligned people something to rally around and something to feel good about?

And like, is it breaking through outside of our little political obsessive bubbles?

Like the answer to all that is like, obviously, yes.

And the answer to the narrow question of what he's doing on the gerrymandering part is like everyone agrees is right and good.

So I don't know if we need to spend any time on that.

But like the broader political strategy, what do you think about that?

Well, I think the fact that there is so much conversation about like a Twitter shtick tells you a lot about how desperate Democrats are for like something, for anything, right?

Because I think my reaction was probably similar to yours.

Like I saw those tweets and I'm like, initially I winced a bit, but then they got better and better.

And unfortunately,

there's some funny ones.

There's some legitimately funny ones.

And unfortunately, I'm...

Tony Loren toilet.

That's good material.

That's good material.

There's just no two ways about it.

Yeah.

And look, Tim, like you, I am unfortunately reverse polarized.

So when I saw Dana Perino and all the Fox News hosts getting mad about it, I enjoyed that.

Truthfully, I don't really read most of them.

Like, I think it's a fun tactic to get attention.

He's clearly meeting the moment.

You see all this polling.

The Democrats want to fight her.

And I think this is giving them that.

I suspect he won't be doing this bit in like six months, nine months.

I could be wrong.

But I do think there's a broader thing he's doing, Tim, that's really smart, which is you see Gavin Newsom on progressive media channels all the time.

He's talking to Brian Tyler Cohn.

He's talking to the Midas Touch folks.

He's talking to us.

And that is really smart because this is what Trump did.

Trump built up those shows.

He went on those shows all the time.

He helped them build their channels.

He built relationships with their audience.

And that has to be a long game thing.

You can't just do that around elections.

I just like do one interview with like Adam Mockler or, you know, or the Bulwark.

Like you got to be on talking to those folks all the time.

And that's something I'm really glad to see him doing because every once in a while, there'll be like an op-ed from some former Biden digital person about how Democrats don't have media infrastructure and need to work on a lot of clarity catching strays now.

Well, you guys had four years to like to try to help and nurture these things and you didn't do it.

So like I agree with the observation, but it's great to see Gavin Newsome kind of putting some skin in the game.

Yeah, that is a good observation.

And I do, you know, it's tough sometimes because

you see him out there on the on the circuit and not everybody is bringing the high quality material you and Brian Tyler Cohen are.

There are some of these shows he's on.

I'm like, okay, I don't know.

Not my cup of tea, per se, but let a thousand flowers bloom.

The Milk Boys have an audience, too.

I don't know if we do need to build up the Biden-Dead Enders, but that's a personal thing.

And so I think that it's good that he's doing that.

Here's my worry.

And this is more of an existential worry.

I worry it's working too well.

I worry that

it's working too well and that he cements himself as the person that is fighting Trump and that it gets hard to dislodge him, and that he brings out.

And

I don't actually mean this as a judgment on Gavin because I think the strategy is good.

I mean, it kind of a judgment on all of us as humans.

We're all fallen.

We're all sinners, Tommy.

I called you John, like Megan Kelly did.

We're all sinners.

I worry that

it brings out the worst in everybody, and everybody gets so excited, and our nipples get so hard, you know, that like Tommy Lorra is being called a toilet that it kind of

the snowball starts rolling down the hill and it and it turns into an avalanche and it can't be stopped and like we're living in this forever is your concern one of tone and just like coarsening of the culture or is this your concern that gavin's gonna be the nominee and you think that's

both i i kind of both i i a little bit that gavin is that

i worry a little bit about that because i think that he i think that there's some issues that he would have reaching out to like people in and that barack obama got to vote for in pennsylvania for example but But yeah, coarsening is the wrong word.

I'm coarse.

I don't mind coarse.

It's more just like that, I don't know, man.

I guess I want a fighter, but it would be nice to be able to have somebody that also fights for something that is a little bit aspirational and that the fighting is not just I'm the best at swirlying people because I love swirling MAGA.

I love it.

Great.

It's good.

I don't think it's bad.

I'm not worried about courseing the culture.

I just, as an end in itself, it is pretty corrupting, though.

See, here, I guess where I disagree with you is I think we are swirlying magna in service of getting attention to this redistricting fight.

And I think that is valuable.

And I feel like there is actually an end game to this silly bullshit.

Into the longer-term concern that, like, I don't know, like I heard you and JBL, I think, talking about this.

Like, is this going to cement this guy as the Democratic frontrunner and the nominee?

I just would like to give you some advice.

I heard you give Democrats several months ago when they were talking, they were all worried about, should we talk about immigration?

Should we be pivoting to Medicaid cuts?

And it's like, it's just so far away.

God knows what we're going to be talking about in two months.

Like,

I'm so happy that Gavin's out there punching away.

And I do think, I hope that we'll see some Democrats see what he's doing, see the attention he's getting, see the growth on his socials, the people Googling him and be like, all right, I got to get in the game more.

I got to show people something.

I agree with that.

I needed this pep talk.

Thank you, Tommy.

I agree with that.

The more fucking Democrats should get in the game on this.

And that would assuage my concerns about Gavin

monopolizing the playing field.

Not everybody needs to do the all-caps tweets.

He's done a great job with that, but the concept is there.

Get fucking pissed.

Throw some fast.

Make it interesting.

Andy Bashir seems like great.

He's an incredible record.

His approval in Kentucky is astounding.

He's a good-looking guy.

He's got a great family, but it's like he's got to break through somehow and solve this last mile problem of having other Democrats hear who the fuck he is if he wants to run for president.

We've talked a little bit about kind of the Dem brand like challenges, issues.

The thing that I'm the most wrapped around the axe on is like how to break through outside of like this narrow blue wall path to victory and this like which gets you 52 senators at most and you know 290 electoral votes at most.

Like how do you make Iowa a swing state again?

You know, there's a pollout yesterday, Sherrod Brown down 50, 44, whatever.

It's way too early.

But like, just how do you think of this challenge of how Democrats can kind of get out of their

narrow audience that they're reaching right now?

Relatively narrow.

So a few thoughts.

First of all, I kind of think we got a chance in Iowa this year.

Rob Sand is a great gubernatorial candidate.

He's one statewide.

He's your doppler ganker?

He's a far more chiseled jawline, but I appreciate the compliment.

But, like, you know, he's a guy who like he hunts and he fishes and he's authentic and he's from Iowa and he's one, he's an auditor, and it's got an interesting background.

And then Nathan Sage is kind of like filling the space of the

a little more, you know, I think lefty blue-collar union voice there.

So maybe we have a chance.

I know I'm, maybe, I'm probably totally wrong.

Iowa could be totally gone, but I, I tend to view that politics as just a giant pendulum that is constantly swinging.

And when I see Chris Ruffo flipping out about the Cracker Barrel logo, I start to think, boy, this pendulum is swung way too far back for a cracker barrel.

We're going to talk about it.

But people, I think people are going to start to find that shit annoying.

And I think I don't want to jump us to the 2028 primaries or start talking about presidential politics yet.

But I do think that is the process that gets you attention from the media that allows you to deliver a message more compellingly.

So once people start getting into that game, I do think it will help us have some fighters that actually get covered.

If I offered to you the working theories out there for how Democrats could appeal better to some of the demos who they've lost ground with, you have the group out there that is absolutely adamant that it needs to be a populist leftist.

Economic populism is the only path.

You have a group out there that is absolutely adamant that the Dems need to hippie punch the left, like that they're just too, got too far to the left on progressive issues, whether it be trans or guns or whatever.

You've got our abundance friends who think Democrats just should govern better.

I think there's a little bit of truth to all those, but like my personal pet issue is I just think that like the vibes of the candidates have gotten really bad.

I think you need to find better, like the vibes need to be totally different with the candidates themselves.

Like is really the recruitment is about as big a problem as anything.

Taking those four, or you're welcome to nominate a fifth.

Where do you think is the secret sauce?

I think

I would probably pick little bits from each, but I do think like if I were to have to pick one, I would look populist economic focus on kitchen table stuff you fucking lib I'm the lady well that doesn't mean you have to be like the furthest left populist economic kind of guy but I do think like a relentless focus on that message is what helps Zoran Mandani and I think what's this guy's name in Maine who just announced who seems pretty cool Graham Planter.

Graham Planter, right?

Like that, his announcement video is like him on, you know, his oyster boat, right?

Just talking about economic concerns.

What did you think about him saying the word oligarchy and that?

Didn't love it.

Yeah, okay.

All right.

Didn't love it.

I'm not part of the third way.

They released a long manifesto today, which is like a reverse unibomber.

It's just a bunch of words you're not allowed to say.

This apparently is based on no polling or specific research.

It's just things these guys don't like.

And by the way, I didn't like a lot of them.

One of my favorite ones was the third way.

It's like, stop saying small D democracy.

And I was like, I will not allow that because it makes for so many good jokes.

Every time Lovett says small D democracy, that it's a free whack for me.

So, so please continue saying small D democracy.

But they have some other things out there: cisgender they don't like.

BIPOC.

I'm not really a huge fan of BIPOC myself.

Incarcerated people.

Anyway, subverting norms.

We're not allowed.

Why aren't we allowed to say subverting norms?

Overton window, we're not even allowed to say.

Why can't we say Overton window, third way?

I like Overton Window.

Don't dumb me down.

It was a lot of jargon.

It felt like a list.

Were you triggered no it just seemed like a list from a bunch of citrus

it was a list from a bunch of overly online centrists that they could use to tell a bunch of overly online lefties to shut the fuck up which like that's fine put it out there but like there's no data backing this like yes talk like a human being be yourself like you know don't i didn't like the word oligarchy either that was the only thing that

bumped me except the um the I agree with you on the guitar riff.

I'm going to talk to people who made that ad.

I don't like that guitar riff.

Please, do you know the people that made the ad?

Yes.

Please tell them.

It's all love.

It's all love.

You know, great ad, good message.

They're doing good work.

But I just, I've got to go fucking crazy if I hear the same guitar riff that's been in every Democratic ad for like three cycles now.

Literally, it's my second shout out to him.

I got, I, I, I can find you somebody.

I got pals that do this.

We can make, we can do other guitar riffs.

They're other centering better music.

We're

in the space for better music.

I like that guy.

So you were on the economic populist left stuff.

All right.

Well, while we burnish your credentials.

Well, can I just say, though, I agree with you, like that, I think candidate ID and just people who are interesting and compelling that you like, like that, they're inextricably linked.

Zoran Mondamni is a guy who talks about populist stuff, but he's also super compelling, like charming, interesting, great at making videos, great at talking to people.

Like, you can't disaggregate those two.

No, he's a good hang.

He's a good hang on the green drum, even you know, even after I gave him some shit.

Since 1983, Nissan has been building award-winning vehicles right here in America.

so there's no need to cross the pond, the river, or even your neighbor's driveway to find real quality.

And this summer, Nissan is making it easier than ever to upgrade your ride.

No new tariffs, just lower MSRPs on the best-selling Rogue and Pathfinder, so you can finally wave goodbye to that old car with the mysterious dashboard rattle and the tape holding the bumper together.

Whether you're craving advanced tech that feels like the future, serious comfort for those long drives, or the peace of mind that comes with driving something that doesn't squeak every time you turn left, these SUVs have you covered.

But don't snooze on this.

These offers are only here for a limited time and while supplies last.

It's just one more reason Nissan is ranked number one for new vehicle quality among mainstream brands.

If you've been waiting for the right moment, consider this your opportunity and head to your local Nissan dealer before these offers disappear.

Learn more and find your new Nissan at nissanusa.com.

For JD Power 2025 award information, visit jdpower.com/slash awards.

At Bright Horizons, infants discover first steps, toddlers discover independence, and preschoolers discover bold ideas.

Our dedicated teachers and discovery-driven curriculum nurture curiosity, inspire creativity, and build lasting confidence so your child is ready to take on the world.

Come visit one of our Bright Horizons centers in the Bay Area and see for yourself how we turn wonder into wisdom.

Schedule your visit today at brighthorizons.com.

All right, while we're, you know, burnishing your shitload credentials, let's talk a little bit about Gaza.

There's a Washington Post story this morning about, I guess, a UN report, a Global Authority on Hunger.

It says famine has been officially confirmed in the Gaza City region and is projected to spread within weeks to two more population centers in the wider Gaza Strip.

You guys made some noise recently over on your pod talking about how Dems need to talk differently about this,

which,

well, why don't you just talk about it?

Where do you think things are?

The sort of broader points about the war in Gaza or U.S.

relations with Israel generally?

Both.

Or both.

Let's go.

I think Democrats and a lot of elected officials, when they talk about the U.S.-Israel relations, are using talking points that were drafted by someone in the 1980s, maybe on a typewriter.

They are very dusty, and we need to evolve them.

By someone, that's not an anti-Semitic dog whistle there.

You're just saying that that person happened to live 40 years ago.

You're not saying that it happened.

It was an entrance to

Harry Rosenstein.

I'm saying that, like, we are, Joe Biden used to do this all the time.

He would talk about the Israel of Golden Mayer and this sort of like bastion of freedom and democracy in the Middle East.

And if it didn't exist, we'd have to create it.

When the reality is, since 2009, it has been Bibi Netanyahu's government.

And he stayed in power by including in his governing coalition increasingly radical,

in fact, terrorists supporting extremist individuals like Itmar Ben-Gavir, the security minister, Smotris, the finance minister.

And I think Democrats, the reality of the makeup of this Israeli government is something that I think is really hard for a lot of people to come to terms with because they either have an emotional attachment to Israel or they have this, you know, belief from decades of just sort of like affinity between cultural or whatever it might be.

And I think there's a couple of things happening right now that are actually crises.

Like there's the crisis of the war in Gaza, which has been going on for nearly two years, and the starvation that's happening there, but also like the Israelis are about to escalate the war in Gaza.

And then in the West Bank, you not only have like these rampaging settlers, like leading pogroms through villages and like driving Palestinians out and killing them, including American citizens, by the way, but you have this ongoing constant construction of settlements that is carving up the West Bank in such a way that there is no hope of a two-state solution.

In fact, at this point, there basically isn't because there's no contiguous territory that could be a Palestinian state.

And so the hope is like, let's just acknowledge reality and talk about things as they are, not as they were 20, 30 years ago or as we wished they would be.

And let's also just be honest that like groups like APAC are not, they don't support Democrats.

They support candidates in primaries to take out progressive Democrats.

I was with you up to the very last sentence.

I think that like just being awake to what is the reality on the ground in Gaza is necessary to being able to talk about this in a way that is honest, right?

Like, and I think, and I saw you getting, you know, with some folks, there have been a lot of folks that were big critics of Israel immediately after October 7th, like even really before the war was being fought, you know, who are now saying, oh, well, now you guys are coming around our point of view and whatever.

I guess, you know, you can try to wave the bloody shirt or something if you want.

But like, you know, where we are now,

there's no plan.

Right.

Like, like, and Israel said, and the plan is basically to ethnically cleanse Gaza Strip.

They're sending people to South Sudan.

Right.

They're sending people to South Sudan.

So, like, that's where it is.

Like, so if it was another thing where we're going after Hamas, and then we're going to figure out, you know, we have a plan to extricate ourselves.

Like, that's not what has happened.

So, we are, we are, and it's really, it sucks.

It's really sad.

And I just think that, like, to your point, like being clear about the situation as it actually lies with the situation, I think it is necessary to be able to talk about it.

Now, I find the AIPAC thing very strange.

This is like not just related to APAC.

It's like related to all this sort of stuff.

I feel like it's a lot of people that don't actually pay attention to politics, understand politics that closely, that feel like APAC is more powerful than it is.

All of these donor stories, it's like we're in a, in the post-Citizens United world, it's like.

Like the fact that you took $20,000 from people on a board or whatever, I don't fucking know, man.

Sometimes I feel like they're like made into this like all-powerful boogeyman in a way that makes me a little uncomfortable.

No, I don't think they're anything close to an all-powerful boogeyman.

And I think actually what you've seen over the last six to 12 months has shown kind of stark terms that they're not.

I do think you see a lot of policing of policy and speech by various groups in this space.

Like Jonathan Greenblatt from the ADL wrote a New York Post op-ed where he called me an anti-Semite because I said Bibi Net Yahoo dragged Donald Trump into the war with Iran.

And I think like 10 years ago, that kind of thing would have like

really stung and worried me.

But now I think like you hear those kind of attacks so often and they're so cynical and they're in such bad faith that the power is wearing off.

I think what frustrates me about AIPAC is they do have a party line.

And that party line includes like bullshit like the U.S.

and Israel should never disagree in public.

We should deal with our disagreements behind closed doors.

I'm like, well, you know who that really helps?

Bibi Netanyahu, who never gets criticized from America in public.

And, you know, so I think that that's kind of the stuff I'm talking about there.

And then in terms of like that tweet that got all the lefties mad at me, Tim, basically I said, like, I saw a bunch of people tweeting like, you know, fuck you if you're, you know, just now coming around to thinking what's happening in Gaza is bad or a genocide or what have you.

And I just think like my brain is always wired to think in terms of a democratic strategist and like, how do we build the biggest coalition to tackle a problem?

And I think if we're scolding people for agreeing with us, that is unbelievably stupid and we shouldn't do it.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be accountability at some point for politicians who voted in certain ways that we disagree with.

But like, in my mind, I always have like a 70-year-old Jewish grandma in, you know, in New York who is like a deep emotional connection to Israel, is a big liberal, cares deeply about Israel, and has watched this war over the last, you know, 22 months and is increasingly horrified.

And I want that person to be part of this coalition, even if she won't agree that it is a genocide, right?

Even if that is a bridge too far for her, given the connection of that term to the Holocaust, right?

But we want that person marching, rallying, rallying, voting, calling Congress.

Like, and that's my whole point.

Yeah, and saying we don't want people to fucking starve.

Yeah, we don't want to starve people.

You don't want that person.

You want that person?

We don't want kids starving.

What we don't want is, you know, anti-anti-starvation reporting by the people at the free press, you know, talking about how, you know, we really can't talk about the malnourished boys because they also had other,

you know, their arms were blown off.

So the free press, they wrote this piece.

I think it was 12 examples they found of malnourished children who have been featured in photos and Western news reports where those kids also had pre-existing conditions.

And like, look, on one level, more context and reporting is fine.

It's great.

But like some of the examples they used were CNN failed to mention that this one kid who looked emaciated had part of his skull blown off by an Israeli shell from shrapnel.

I was like, I'm sorry, what point do you think that is making about this war?

And it's just clearly like, this is the free press going after various mainstream organizations in a really cynical way to suggest that they are overplaying or manufacturing manufacturing reports of famine or starvation.

And it is bullshit.

And I know, like, the other thing, Tim, that never gets talked about is the Israeli government will not let reporters go into Gaza and report from the ground without an IDF minder.

It would be much easier for the New York Times to fact-check stories if they had people on the ground, but they're left like trying to call the mom of some kid.

And like, they can't, what are they going to do?

Call a hospital that's been bombed to try to get records?

Like, come on.

It's a challenging reporting environment.

You can't admit that maybe the Iranian bombing bombing didn't go quite as bad as you thought it was going to.

It didn't.

No, I don't think it's over yet, though.

I just, I don't think this is.

It's important that we question our priors.

Oh, no.

I'm agreeing with you on the Gaza stuff, so it was important that I threw out there a little neocon chomp.

No, well, I think it's look, did it lead to World War III?

No.

I think the war ended.

I'm giving a real answer to kind of a funny question.

I do think the war ended because we basically were about to run out of interceptor missiles for a lot of the missile defense programs.

And the Israelis were like, all right, it's time to stand down.

And the Iranians were ready to stand down too.

I just don't think this is over.

I don't think the 12-day war is going to be how this thing ends.

I think there's going to be more conflict.

At Bright Horizons, infants discover first steps, toddlers discover independence, and preschoolers discover bold ideas.

Our dedicated teachers and discovery-driven curriculum nurture curiosity, inspire creativity, and build lasting confidence so your child is ready to take on the world.

Come visit one of our Bright Horizons centers in the Bay Area and see for yourself how we turn wonder into wisdom.

Schedule your visit today at BrightHorizons.com.

Ready for a home that smells like you?

Meet Pura, the premium smart home fragrance diffuser easily controlled from an app.

Schedule, swap, and adjust set intensity anytime, anywhere.

This week only, subscribe to two premium fragrances per month for 12 months and we'll send you a Pura Plus starter set free.

That's a $70 value.

Supplies are limited, so head over to Pura.com now and grab your free set before the offer ends.

We have a few laughs we have to get to.

We're running out of time, but I do, I do it.

Before we get to laughs, I just want to really quick check in on your feelings.

I don't know, man.

I range between like anger.

I get a lot of anger sometimes, mostly on the immigration stuff.

Little bouts of sadness, little bouts of sadness.

But like, the thing that worries me the most is I self-identify.

We'll do a little therapy talk.

Sorry, third way.

We're going going to do a little therapy talk here as I self, you know, as I look internally is I'm getting kind of numb, I think.

I'm self-identifying as getting kind of numb, and I don't like that.

So I don't know.

How does that strike you?

Yeah, I think that's a lot.

I feel that way a lot.

There's clearly the White House's strategy is to do something outrageous every single day so that they can drive the narrative.

And there are definitely times.

where I'm like, what's he doing at the Kennedy Center or the Smithsonian?

Like, do I have to like read about that?

It gets exhausting.

And that's their goal, right?

It is to exhaust us.

I'm sort of like you.

I think the story, the more specific the story or the thing, the more outraged I am.

Like the story of Andri

Hernandez-Romero getting rendered to El Salvador, like seeing the photos of him crying for his mother, his head being shaved, knowing he did nothing, knowing the horrors they would inflict on him.

Like you feel that in your soul.

And you can't shake it.

I feel the same way about some of the images and videos you see out of Gaza.

And to just know that we're like funding this and funneling arms to bomb these kids,

it can break you if you really think about it.

But like the day-to-day of Trump, I too am, it's easy to feel numb.

It's constant.

Do you fight it, though?

Or do you embrace the

embrace the numbness with mid-afternoon cocktails?

Gummies?

It's more of an edible.

And it's not always

California.

It's post-bedtime.

Yeah.

California's sober.

I tend to find that like

if I learn about it, if I dig into something, if I learn about it, then I start to care about it more.

If I just sort of like, I need to let this one go, then

I'm numb.

Self-care?

Self-care.

A little self-care.

Letting a few stories go.

Do you have any advice for people on this?

I think my advice would be you don't have to read all the news, like sincerely.

That was like, remember 2017, 2018?

I do think that was a feeling that like kind of resist libs had.

It's like, I'm going to read all the news.

I'm going to watch all the panels.

And I don't know that that's good for us.

I give that advice too.

I'm like, take a break from my show.

If you're a daily listener, we appreciate you.

But take a fucking break.

Yeah, take a break from my show for a day or two.

That's fine.

That's okay.

Like, well, I'll download it.

You'll survive.

Also, though,

an equal balance to that for me, like how I want to take a break at times, and people should take a break for their own, you know, to find things are more fulfilling, is I don't want him to take away the things that I care about.

Like, don't let, you know what I mean?

Like, not to be whatever, corny, but like, don't take, don't let him take your anger and sadness or passion or care away.

Like, that, I worry about that almost as much sometimes, where it's just like, fuck, I don't know.

I, I, I, you know, the things that I used to really care about and feel passionate about, it's just, it's hard to.

And so while simultaneously I want to break from the crazy, I also don't want to numb myself to not care about things that matter.

Does that resonate with you at all?

100%.

And

I find it kind of playing out in some specific places.

Like climate change, still a pretty big problem.

Feels like we're rolling back all the things we did to stop it.

I have two little kids.

I have a two-year-old and a one-year-old.

I really worry about what planet they are going to inherit because of us.

It's easy when you start to think about it, you go to a dark place.

It's completely demoralizing.

It's like kind of nihilistic.

But yeah, I don't want to lose that passion and sort of feeling and motivation to actually do something about it, even if it's outside of government.

All right.

We're going to end with a laugh.

Two laughs.

It's a tweet from Byron Donald.

You've talked about Cracker Barrel quite a bit.

And I don't want you to be a smug coastal liberal.

Okay.

Smug coastal liberal agnostic.

I'm assuming you're agnostic.

I don't know.

I haven't asked lately.

But

WASS's Congressman, Brian Donalds, think he's going to run for governor of Florida or already is maybe.

He says this.

In college, I worked at Cracker Barrel in Tallahassee.

I even gave my life.

I'm sorry.

I even gave my life to Christ in their parking lot.

What?

Their logo was iconic, and their unique restaurants were a picture of American culture.

You really just snuck that one in there.

I gave my life to Christ in the parking lot.

Cool.

I love that.

And we all have places where we did, you know,

have memories.

I remember where I did my first communion and all that.

But

what do you think happened in the parking lot?

Do we think that's a euphemism for like, I got a hand job?

That's where my head went.

Am I wrong?

I don't know.

I was thinking maybe he was so fucked up on drugs in the Cracker Barrel parking lot that he crashed out and he decided that day, he hit rock bottom.

And that day he decided that he was going to find Jesus, which I hope that is true and that

he found something that served him.

I don't know.

We need to learn more.

I've got follow-up questions about that.

Jesus.

Yeah, I guess.

I was never a Cracker Barrel guy.

I think I've probably been once or twice.

My memory of it is that it sucks and that I don't care.

And I can't believe people are talking about this.

I'd love to go back to yelling about Sidney Sweeney because at least that was entertaining.

You like talking about Sidney Sweeneys.

I don't know why.

I know why you like those photos coming across the screen.

You know, liberal men still can like jugs.

Yeah, here's the thing.

The old Cracker Barrel logo was great.

I wasn't a big Cracker Barrel man myself either.

The logo was great.

The place had a vibe.

Bill Crystal, the old sage in the Slack, correctly pointed out something I did not know, which was that it was always phony, you know.

Cracker Barrel was founded in 1970 as like a fake old thing.

Like, it's not like this thing that's been here since night, you know.

So,

whatever.

It had a good vibe.

It was good branding.

They fucked it up.

The ad wizards are terrible.

The whole, you know, marketing trend towards minimalism is totally bad and wrong.

And,

and I concur with that.

I don't know what it has to do with woke or what it has to do with Byron Donalds' path towards redemption in the Lord Jesus, but I do think it was a bad change.

Look, I'm thrilled for Byron that he found God.

Me too.

I found it at a Waffle House one time.

I mean, he hasn't really shown, I guess I should just say, he hasn't really shown a lot of Jesus-like behavior

over the past few years.

I mean, he is representing a state that has alligator alcatraz, which we just were discussing, where like we have people who did nothing wrong who are in a fucking hellhole in the middle of the Everglades where they have to have clean water shipped in.

So anyway, I don't really think Jesus probably would have been before that.

I don't speak for him, but anyway, I do like whatever.

You never know where Jesus, you know, he shows up in his works in mysterious ways.

So here's the political question I want to ask you.

Like, am I being sanguine about feeling like the

absurd woke attacks have lost some of their luster?

Because there was a time when people like us would mock Kid Rock, you know, machine gunning a bunch of bug lights, but then it became a huge thing.

And a bunch of, you know, MAGA crazies like really harmed the stock price for a long time.

And I think it scared corporations into like, it plowed a lot of ground to to get to where we are now, which is where like, you know, Donald Trump will try to sue you for a billion dollars if you have a DEI program.

But like, when I see Chris Ruffo tweeting about the Cracker Barrel logo, I do wonder if they've jumped the shark a little bit and if people are going to be like, come on, man, this is so fucking stupid.

I think so.

I think we're past peak woke and past peak woke lash.

And I think that's a good thing.

Yeah.

We have one more laugh ahead that breaking news, Donald Trump Jr.

has just tweeted.

Someone's going to have to explain why George Conway was already at John Bolton's house at the crack of dawn.

So I guess Donald Trump Jr.

was watching our live stream.

Nice.

I will, I guess, say to Donald Trump Jr.

that like George Conway showed up like an hour after the Fed showed up and he lives five minutes away.

So you don't really need a crack investigative team to figure out how he did that.

Yeah, he was like, he lived on the street, right?

He's like, I was at my apartment in Bethesda.

It's not that big of a town.

They're in Bethesda together.

Great.

All right, last thing.

It's a long clip, so I think we'll have to play it in two parts.

Alex Jones, aforementioned Alex Jones, has some concerns about his president that I'd like to share with you.

Trump has got great genetics.

He's tough.

And if he takes care of himself,

he can make it through these years and then after.

But if he doesn't, he's going to have,

I predict Trump is going to have some type of collapse within the next 12 months at the current trajectory.

And so I'm going to be talking about that today.

He's got extremely swollen ankles.

So he's going to, a collapse is coming in the next 12 months for Trump.

Did you watch this whole segment, by the way?

I've got more.

Okay.

More is to come.

First, I want to know if you have any thoughts about the collapse coming in the next 12 months.

It sounds exciting.

I'm thrilled to hear it.

Alex Jones is ahead of the curve, probably, on all things Biden's health, unfortunately.

That's true.

You should probably admit that.

That's a good point.

You should probably admit that.

Maybe Alex Jones really has his eye on elderly deterioration.

Watch out, Trump fans.

A collapse coming next 12 months.

All right.

I was most intrigued.

And I got to to say, Tommy,

you hate to hand it to Alex Jones, but the man is a talent.

I mean, we're here in the broadcasting space, and when you listen to this next clip and what this guy's doing, he's just on another level, and you do have to credit him for that.

Yeah, the main piece of evidence as referenced there for that Donald Trump will collapse in the next 12 months that Alex Jones provides is his cankles.

Let's listen.

If you pull up the ankles from Alaska, they're straight on shot.

They are big.

They are swollen.

They are like

really big.

My neck's 19 and a half inches.

His ankles look like they're about big neck.

15 inches around.

That's not a good sign for the heart and the rest of the body because the rest of them, he's lost weight.

He's not that fat.

So

that's not good.

Everybody that you've known that's

having heart problems,

That's not good right there.

Okay.

Okay.

They're getting bigger and bigger.

Oh, someone make a TikTok audio out of that.

That is good.

The ankles are getting fucking thick.

They're bigger and bigger.

So, Tim, this is like a 25-minute, 30-minute segment.

Did you watch all of it by any chance?

I caught eight minutes.

I watched all of it on 2X.

It starts with this genuinely concerned rant about about Trump's health and he's begging his staff to let him get enough sleep and all this shit.

And it's like, look, we all know that Donald Trump is like, he goes to the golf course and he dicks around and he watches Fox News all day, but the guy does seem to never sleep, right?

Like he's tweeting at 3 a.m.

He's doing Fox phoners on the way back from Alaska.

It's like, it's not terrible advice.

Then it goes into, but it's all predicated off this Fox and Friends interview where Trump makes a joke about how he wants to get into heaven.

He wants to stop the war in Ukraine to save some lives to get into heaven.

And then Alex Jones makes this super intense call for Trump to submit himself to Christ.

Did you get some?

Really?

It's crazy, man.

It gets really, really intense.

Then they should go to a cracker barrel parking lot together.

They should go.

Yes.

Byron, you're there.

And then at the end, it's like he plays this clip of Trump calling Netanyahu and himself a war hero.

And he starts yelling at Trump and Netanyahu, saying neither of them are war heroes.

It is like this is just to your point about Alex being

a talented broadcaster.

This is a ranging segment that starts with cankels and ends in Netanyahu.

Oh boy.

Well, those cankles are getting thicker and thicker.

Let's zoom in on those bad boys for the YouTube crowd.

Tommy, Vitor, what a show.

Thank you for doing this with me.

And

I hope that

your ankles stay thin and that your heart stays healthy, my friend.

They're good.

They're good.

And please, let's keep George Conway out of the clink.

Everybody, have a wonderful weekend.

We'll see you back here on Monday with Bill Crystal.

Peace.

Ancient of chaos,

angel of death.

One of three

ancient fates,

playing with your scissors again.

How lucky are we

to have so much to lose?

Now don't

move

when I tell

what to do.

Hold me by the ankles to the edge of the bed.

And take me like you do in your dreams.

I'm not gonna stop you, I'm not gonna stop you this time, baby.

I want you to show me what you need.

Then help me with the crossword in the morning.

You ain't gonna make me teeth.

Gonna ask me how did I

sleep.

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Top Reasons Advanced Manufacturing Pros Want to Move to Ohio.

So many advancement opportunities for technicians, machinists, managers, operators, and more.

How about a powered up paycheck and an amped up career?

Plus the energy of big-time sports.

And after work, plenty of ways to unplug.

The career you want and a life you'll love.

Have it all in the heart of it all.

Build your future at callohiohome.com.

How does PwC take your company to the leading edge?

We bring the sharpest minds in tech to your team so you can bring the ideas that will transform your business.

We are passionate about your industry so you can walk into any room with every advantage.

We're with you every step of the way so you can know you're headed in the right direction.

At PWC, we build for what's next so you can get there now.

Let's get started at pwc.com slash us

leading edge.

At Bright Horizons, infants discover first steps, toddlers discover independence, and preschoolers discover bold ideas.

Our dedicated teachers and discovery-driven curriculum nurture curiosity, inspire creativity, and build lasting confidence so your child is ready to take on the world.

Come visit one of our Bright Horizons centers in the Bay Area and see for yourself how we turn wonder into wisdom.

Schedule your visit today at brighthorizons.com.