S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovny, and Carise Van Houten.

Speaker 9 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 17 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 21 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 24 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 26 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 29 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 32 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

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Speaker 36 Hello and welcome to the Vorg podcast. We're coming at you from Washington, D.C.
So I'm here in the studio between two ferns with managing editor Sam Stein.

Speaker 37 We are actually between two ferns.

Speaker 36 We are. It's nice.
I like it. Yeah, it's very quick.
It's very good. We're going to start a little wonky.
We're going to do some Capitol Hill machinations talk.

Speaker 36 And so I promise for the listeners out there in real America, outside the Beltway, who don't care about reconciliation and cloture votes, that I have candy for them coming at the end.

Speaker 36 But we have to do this.

Speaker 36 Before we get to the budget, we got Congressman Jimmy Gomez up in segment two, so I hope everybody sticks around for that as well.

Speaker 36 As I mentioned on yesterday's podcast, there was a kind of a quasi-CR. They're trying to call it a continuing resolution where they're continuing the Biden budget with some changes.

Speaker 36 Some serious changes.

Speaker 36 They're going to plus up funding for the military, deeply cut funding to Washington, D.C.

Speaker 36 They're cutting some other discretionary funding. Elon isn't even listening to the fund

Speaker 36 isn't even responsive to what they actually are passing anyway.

Speaker 36 This passed the House with one Democrat, Jared Golden, voting for it, but otherwise on a party-line vote. It now goes to the Senate, and it's a pretty complicated situation, actually, for the Senate.

Speaker 36 And as the person who's been screaming the loudest, do something, Democrats, stop them, fuck them up, do everything you can. The Senate calculus is not actually that clear.

Speaker 37 Are you having a change of heart?

Speaker 36 Anything that's not? No, no, I think that we're about to talk about it.

Speaker 36 But I'm just saying up to top that I think that

Speaker 36 it's a complicated calculus because the Republicans do have the votes to pass this

Speaker 36 if there's no filibuster. So the Democrats

Speaker 36 have to decide, are we going to filibuster this?

Speaker 36 Are we going to block this from even coming out for a vote?

Speaker 37 Rand Paul, I believe, is enough. So Republicans need eight Democrats to say yes in order for this to pass.

Speaker 36 Well, they need eight Democrats to say yes to Cloture. This is why we have to be annoying, right?

Speaker 37 Because like let's just assume that they're going to treat Clotra as the end-all-be-all vote.

Speaker 36 Right.

Speaker 37 So they need eight Democrats. And

Speaker 37 it is a tough one. I feel like I go back and forth on this.

Speaker 37 Yesterday, I was thinking about how, you know, if the goal here for Elon and Trump is to quite literally shave the government down to its studs and fire a bunch of people and like reduce the size of the federal bureaucracy as much as possible, then this would help them do it, right?

Speaker 37 Like you would basically furlough all the non-essential employees.

Speaker 37 Russ Ott would be in charge of figuring out who's essential.

Speaker 37 And then, you know, if the government were refunded, I'm sure they have some crazy ways of making sure that those furloughed employees don't come back. And if they do, that they don't give them pay.

Speaker 37 And

Speaker 36 what kind of outcome is that, right?

Speaker 37 Is that a good outcome for Democrats?

Speaker 36 I don't know.

Speaker 37 Now, on the flip side, I just say on the flip side, and I've talked to a few people about this, it's like who have you talked to? I can't tell you that.

Speaker 37 Well, I'll tell you one on the record, but I'll just say this one is anonymous, but

Speaker 37 I raised this concerns that I just said to a pretty senior Democrat.

Speaker 37 This person responds, it's certainly possible and a real concern, but they're going to pull this stuff over and over and over again.

Speaker 37 Do we continually get run over and hope we can get to 2026 with a House majority? I just fear that we are setting a terrible precedent and the Senate will never stand up to him.

Speaker 37 It's all fucking terrible. And they are trying to destroy the city I call home, that being Washington, D.C.

Speaker 36 That's a little emotional at the end.

Speaker 37 Well, I mean, it might seem emotional, but and look, I'm obviously a resident, right? But a billion dollars ripped from D.C. budget.
It is insane.

Speaker 37 They're talking, there's rumors rampant that schools are going to have to take huge, huge cuts. Like, we're talking about $150 million cut in the education.

Speaker 36 Policing cuts. I thought this was the law and order party.

Speaker 37 Yeah, and Trump was supposed to make this the golden capital city and all that stuff. And I will say, inside D.C., it feels like we are being subjected to an invading country.
It does.

Speaker 37 And this is like, this would gut the city. Now, they probably love that shit.
They think they're probably like, ah, that's great. Like, you get what you deserve.

Speaker 37 But I can't even fathom doing something in the reverse, right? Where Democrats would go in and be like, you know what? We're really going to screw over, name your random town in Mississippi.

Speaker 37 I don't know. Like, it would be insane.
And people would be like, you are heartless. And that's totally impossible.

Speaker 36 Can everybody be on their high horse? Yeah. How dare you?

Speaker 36 And then

Speaker 36 on all the panels just like looking down on the Democrats are targeting these red states.

Speaker 37 Not to divert it into like the DC story, but that's the calculus Democrats and Democrats have right now.

Speaker 36 The DC thing is kind of like anytime a new president comes in, it's kind of like an invading army comes into the country. I mean, the whole city does change.
These guys actually literally allow

Speaker 36 you to get a Sherman.

Speaker 36 Part of the reason why the calculus is

Speaker 36 a little tough is because if you just put on the inverse, like the Republicans can hold government shutdowns over

Speaker 36 Democrats' heads. They haven't really done it to much effect.
I know I was talking to, I think I can betray this one. He didn't tell me he was on the record, but he's been pretty public on this.

Speaker 36 I was talking to Brendan Buck, who is Paul Ryan's old guy, yesterday. And he's like, look, man, our team never got anything out of these government shutdown threats.
It was always a loser for us.

Speaker 36 And

Speaker 36 even in their case, in the Republican case,

Speaker 36 in those moments where they're trying to threaten Obama or Biden with shutdowns,

Speaker 36 it was kind of a win-win for them, not politically, but substantively. They're like, oh, you shut down the government.
Okay, great. We don't like the government anyway.

Speaker 36 And so the Democrats are in the different, like, they don't have as much leverage as Republicans do because Democrats don't want Russ Smoke to be able to shut everything down. So there is that like...

Speaker 37 How do you negotiate with a nihilist, right? Like, that's the issue. And what are you actually trying to extract?

Speaker 37 I mean, let's let's say in theory, they got some sort of promise that Elon Musk wouldn't meddle in some agencies or something like that. Do you really think Elon's going to abide by it? Like,

Speaker 37 he's already pushing the boundaries of the law if not overstepping them on multiple fronts.

Speaker 37 So, there's like quite literally nothing they can put on paper that would make Democrats totally confident that they've solved the situation.

Speaker 36 So, what are you holding out for?

Speaker 36 So, this is how I break that down. I'm going to try to answer that question for you.
As I see the Senate Democrats' calculus, they basically have three options: they have accelerationism. What's that?

Speaker 36 Because you know the phrase accelerationism.

Speaker 36 The racists. I mean,

Speaker 36 this would be a noble version of accelerationism, I guess. But the racists kind of like there's a group of a subset of the white nationalists that like want a race war.

Speaker 36 So they're, you know, because they think the quicker we get to civil war, the better. Yeah, the quicker we get to civil war in the country, the better.

Speaker 36 So there's accelerationism, which is like basically saying, fuck it. No, fuck you.
You're going to shut down the government anyway. You're already shutting the government down.
Let's do it. Go for it.

Speaker 36 Let's see what the American people think right about your governance and and i'm i'm

Speaker 36 you you won't be surprised to hear a sympathetic turn selling

Speaker 36 not you right yeah i know let's get it on there is there is then limp objection which is option two which is you know basically the paddle version of this that's

Speaker 36 where they are which is where they are which is basically saying like okay

Speaker 36 we're gonna kind of object to this we'll cut you a deal where we vote for cloture if you let us vote against some other thing it'll be too complicated for anybody to explain we'll all say we voted no because we all will vote no.

Speaker 36 Because you can't, I guess let's start here. You can't vote yes on this fucking thing if you're a Democrat.
Like, there's no way to just say straight yes. I am a yes on

Speaker 36 codifying the Doge cuts. I'm a yes on cutting D.C.
by a billion.

Speaker 36 I'm letting Donald Trump do what he wants and putting my name on the bill. You can't say yes.
I don't think that's. You can maybe cut a deal where

Speaker 36 they get to vote on it and they get to pass it 53 to 47. So that's the limp objection.
Limp objection. And then there's just

Speaker 36 the accommodation pass, which was

Speaker 36 yeah, which was basically, and Hick and Looper flipped on this, I've seen, but Hick and Looper presented the accommodationist case yesterday, which was basically what you just said, which is like, he's like, it's the best of two terrible options.

Speaker 36 I don't want to shut the government down and give them even more power to fire people. There's already enough pain, right? So accommodation, limp objection, and acceleration.

Speaker 37 I'm putting all my money that they do limp objection.

Speaker 37 There's just no universe where I

Speaker 37 will say

Speaker 37 there's the one thing that is, and I don't think they appreciate it, is

Speaker 37 how palpable the anger will be over this. I mean, people are really, I was texting with Howard Dean, ex-DNC chair.

Speaker 36 He, I mean, he said like, this is the quote,

Speaker 37 You can't, this, we were talking about shutting down the government and what would happen to having to bring people back and how it's possible that they just won't.

Speaker 37 And he said that can be negotiated out, and Trump will get the blame for all the crap he does.

Speaker 37 The GOP strategy is just a gun to the head of the American people, and we should not follow along with it. I don't plan to support any Democrat who does.
We can primary incumbents too.

Speaker 36 I mean, there is like,

Speaker 37 they want to.

Speaker 36 People are pissed.

Speaker 37 Oh, yeah. And like, I think they don't even care.
It's not so much, they know the outcomes are shit. Like, they know that it's shit either way.

Speaker 37 Their point is that if you don't show a fight, you're just going to get rolled time and time again.

Speaker 37 And that there are very few venues to fight. This is like literally one of like a handful of venues that they're going to get.
And if on the first one they go with, what is it?

Speaker 36 Objectionism. Obviously, the second combination.

Speaker 37 Yeah, bend over and take

Speaker 37 that's going to be bad. And you would imagine that that's like the kind of formula for, we were talking about this a while back, but like a democratic style party.

Speaker 36 Yeah. I want to make the case for accelerationism from a political standpoint, just just political, not policy.
Okay,

Speaker 36 um, and I don't think it again, I would love to come here and do as soon as I was as I do on planes. I listen to the MAGA podcast.
That's what I do. You do that too? Yeah,

Speaker 36 you know, so I was listening to Bannon, and I was thinking to myself, and I was like, Does that make the plane ride go faster or slower?

Speaker 36 I was prepping this podcast. I was like, what would Bannon do? Well, WWBD.

Speaker 37 I think that's actually a worthy thing to

Speaker 37 operate.

Speaker 36 Yeah. And

Speaker 36 the reality reality is that he would right now be sitting in my shoes with this mic, going to the mattresses, being like, zero votes, zero quarter for anyone that gives a vote.

Speaker 36 We must stop anybody that gives a vote. Patriots, sign up with me right now.

Speaker 36 We have the banner of heaven on our side. Okay.

Speaker 37 Well, first of all, you need at least three more colleges.

Speaker 36 I'm sure you're sure.

Speaker 36 But only one of them is college.

Speaker 36 Okay.

Speaker 36 And

Speaker 36 so there's something. But here's the thing.
Again, just politically, there's something to all that.

Speaker 36 And here would be my political case and why I kind of fall down, I think, more meekly than that on the side of accelerationism. If there's limp objection, I'm for meek accelerationism, which is like,

Speaker 36 I don't actually think the Democrats will get blamed. The Democrats will get blamed in D.C.

Speaker 36 and will be blamed among super nerds. But if you are out there, a regular American

Speaker 36 and fucking the stock market is crashing.

Speaker 36 Like there's no, no real progress on any of the foreign stuff that Trump said that he was going to make. The prices are higher.
Right.

Speaker 36 People are being fired all around you. You can't call for Social Security help.
You can't go to the national parks. I think that's like, are you going to really blame the Democrats?

Speaker 36 And you're like, Donald Trump is the president. I don't know what the cloture is.
Like, Donald Trump said he'd fix everything. He's a deal maker.
It's all fucking chaos. I think it hurts Trump.

Speaker 36 I don't disagree with that.

Speaker 36 I think it hurts Democrats among elite thinkers and smart sniffers on the Acceler corridor, but I think it probably hurts Republicans everywhere.

Speaker 37 I don't disagree that what you're describing here was popularized in the great 90s movie Speed.

Speaker 36 Okay.

Speaker 37 Shoot the hostage. Shoot the hostage.
And in this case, and I don't literally mean shoot people.

Speaker 36 Sorry. Eagle Ed Martin, if you're listening.
This is a reference to the movie Speed. Okay.

Speaker 37 People in Canada, I know you're mad at me.

Speaker 37 In this case, the hostage is federal employees. And you've spent six weeks being like, how, what are you fucking doing to our government? You're firing all those people.

Speaker 36 It's horrible.

Speaker 37 And then you turn around and you're like, sorry, but we got to go because we need the chaos. That's shooting the hostage.

Speaker 37 But in terms of like the politics, I actually think you're right, which is...

Speaker 37 I mean,

Speaker 37 the real criticism of Trump right now is that everything is just so chaotic. And that just extends from the government to the economy to world affairs.
And this doesn't help matters.

Speaker 37 But the hostage is

Speaker 36 pretty pricey. Yeah.
All right. So I'm going to know.

Speaker 36 I think it's tough. I think it's tougher than it seems.
You want to raw dog this thing, basically. I do want to raw dog this thing.
And I got to tell you, it's interesting.

Speaker 36 It's not just one less thing on this because people are so fucking sick of Coach Duck, I'm sure, listening. But

Speaker 36 I've spoken to two House Democrats who are like not Tim, like not like the flamethrowers. Like listeners probably haven't even heard of either of them, honestly.

Speaker 36 Normal middle of the caucus House Democrats who are pretty, you know, just

Speaker 36 institutionalist type people. And I was, I put to both of them yesterday, what would you do if you're in the Senate? They're like, fuck it, no.

Speaker 36 And it's easy for them to say. Fair.

Speaker 36 But I'm just saying, I think that's telling you, like, if the vote, the voters are mad, there's frustration, not just among the voters, but all right, you've talked me into it. Let's do it.

Speaker 36 Let's just do it. All right.

Speaker 38 Some moments in your life stay with you forever.

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Speaker 46 Listen to on purpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 9 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 17 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 21 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 24 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 26 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 29 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 32 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 36 Pete Budig.

Speaker 36 We got the Buddhaj boys. The Buddhajig boys, he listened to the listeners.
I don't remember.

Speaker 36 The Buddhajig boys listening. Some news for you.
Pete Budig not running for Senate in Michigan.

Speaker 36 There's an interesting, though, line in why in the Politica story. I can't remember the reporter that wrote that, but it wasn't exclusive.
And they wrote that

Speaker 36 it was based on a belief that it'd be exceedingly difficult to run successive campaigns in 2026 and 2028.

Speaker 36 What would the 2028 campaign do?

Speaker 37 He's like, you're not supposed to admit that you're running for president like that.

Speaker 36 2025. Isn't the rule that you can't

Speaker 37 show any ambition whatsoever?

Speaker 36 There are no rules

Speaker 36 in Trump 2.0.

Speaker 37 So Pete's running for president. Gotcha.

Speaker 36 It seems like Pete's running for president. I'm just, I just, you know, we shouldn't do 2028 hot stove in March 2025.
So I just want three sentences from you on his work.

Speaker 37 We've had three 2028 hot stove items in the past 24 hours.

Speaker 36 What are the other ones? ROM

Speaker 36 and Bannons. And Bannon.

Speaker 36 Bannon 2020. All three reported by Politico.

Speaker 37 Appropriate. I'm Brandon.

Speaker 37 I worked for Politico.

Speaker 36 How many sentences? Two sentences on this. Is he viable as a 2028? God, do we really have to do this? Just two sentences.
The world is fucking falling apart. I know, it's on two sentences.

Speaker 37 Is he viable? Sure.

Speaker 36 Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 36 I love Pete.

Speaker 37 I like Pete. I think, you know, ultimately, really, who knows what the world looks like, but, you know, young, technocratic,

Speaker 37 smart, can talk.

Speaker 36 Yeah. Here's this big challenge for the next three years.

Speaker 37 He's gay.

Speaker 36 I don't know if that's a good thing. That's a little bit of a challenge.

Speaker 36 We love and honor the gays here on this podcast, of course.

Speaker 36 The main challenge is the Democrats' big problem is with working-class people and people don't pay that close of attention to politics.

Speaker 36 Does being able to speak Norwegian help with those voters? I don't don't know.

Speaker 36 There was a gag, I forget who said it. It's like the old line in primary politics: there's always somebody in the beer lane and the wine lane.
And Pete was running in the champagne lane.

Speaker 36 Highest education voters. And so if the Democrats are struggling at the beer lane, I don't know.
I think it's going to be a tough run for 2028 in the champagne lane.

Speaker 36 More of like a craft cocktail lane.

Speaker 36 I love myself a craft cocktail. Exactly.
Exactly. There it is.

Speaker 36 Who the hell knows?

Speaker 37 He's got the the Boulevard EA crowd.

Speaker 36 All right. Who the hell knows what 2028 looks like? All right.
We're going to get serious.

Speaker 36 I've ignored this story this week to the dismay of some listeners. Yeah, too hot.
Well, also, there's just fucking a lot happening, but I shouldn't have ignored it.

Speaker 36 JBL wrote a great triad on it, and that's the Mona's got a great piece on it this week.

Speaker 36 I'm about to read from it. Mahmoud Khalil, am I pronouncing his name right? He's a prominent Palestinian activist.

Speaker 36 He was organizing one of the Maine Columbia University protests

Speaker 36 after Israel started attacking Gaza after Hamas attacked Israel. He's in ICE detention facility right now in my home state of Louisiana.

Speaker 36 He just had a procedural hearing in New York, and the result was he's still in detention in Louisiana.

Speaker 36 Mona Charon writes this morning for the bulwark.

Speaker 36 I think this sums up pretty good. This is a lead.
Mahmoud Khalil could have been cooked up in a lab to offend, no worse, to disgust me.

Speaker 36 And yet, despite temptation, I cannot endorse what the Trump administration is doing to him.

Speaker 36 What do you think about what's happened with Mahalil?

Speaker 37 I think Mohina summarized it pretty well. I find myself increasingly disturbed by this story.

Speaker 37 The facts are Mahmoud Khalil is a green card holder.

Speaker 37 He's not a citizen, but he has some rights. His wife is a citizen.
She's eight months pregnant.

Speaker 37 What was done to him actually is totally legal. Let's just, I've looked into this.
No, no, I.

Speaker 36 It's totally legal. Isn't it?

Speaker 37 No, the Secretary of State has incredible, and this is the problem, the problem is the law.

Speaker 37 The Secretary of State has incredible discretion to do things like this.

Speaker 37 And

Speaker 37 I just want to be clear about that. Even though that is legal, as I read the law,

Speaker 37 if you are not bothered by the idea that the government will come in to a college campus, detain someone for an association and speech they don't like, and then force deportation proceedings against that person, then frankly, you should not hold yourself up as someone who believes in free speech, because that is a very chilling use of government authority.

Speaker 37 The other side of it is that If you believe that Mahmoud Khalil is a despicable human being who shouldn't be,

Speaker 37 having the associations he does with the

Speaker 37 Columbia University Apartheid Divest movement,

Speaker 37 if you believe that everything he stands for is abhorrent, maybe the worst thing to do is what you're doing right now, which is you're turning him into essentially a martyr.

Speaker 37 And the Trump administration is acting both grotesquely, in my opinion, and idiotically. because they're going to turn this guy into a martyr.

Speaker 37 And it betrays a sort of insecurity on their part as i see it like if you can't handle maybe a malice a malice and an insecurity if you can't handle this guy on a can on a college campus and just like figure out a way to just argue with him and like you know make him insignificant if you're threatened by this then you're not as strong as you portrayed to be so that's how i come down on this thing i'm going to go to the law um just so

Speaker 36 Here's the law for with regards to a green colored holder. It says this.

Speaker 36 An alien whose presence or activities in the United States, the Secretary of State has reasonable ground to believe would have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States and be deported.

Speaker 36 It goes on to say, though, that they should not be deported for actions that would be lawful within the United States unless the Secretary of State personally determines that the alien's presence would compromise a compelling U.S.

Speaker 36 foreign policy interest.

Speaker 37 That's it.

Speaker 37 I mean, if you read that, and again, I've talked to some immigration immigration people on this, it's so vague and it's so open-ended that essentially Marco Rubio just needs to say, I've made a determination.

Speaker 37 And in this case, there was a lot of, initially it was like, well, did ICE do this? And then they were like, no, no, no, no, no. Marco Rubio did this.
And they did that deliberately.

Speaker 37 And then on top of that, and I think you pointed this, they gave a quote to the free press, I want to say, where they were like, we didn't determine that he broke any laws. Right.

Speaker 37 And everyone's like, holy shit. Like, what the? And they didn't have to.
They didn't have to. And the problem is that's a really dangerous law or lack of laws, I should say.

Speaker 36 No,

Speaker 36 I think it's clearly grotesque. It's clearly chilling.

Speaker 36 It's also, again, like

Speaker 36 these weren't active protests, right? It also doesn't even make, like,

Speaker 36 even if you agree, like, even if we're in the middle of the, if you're in the middle of the Columbia protests, you're worried it's going to expand. You know what I mean?

Speaker 36 Like, but there's no fig leaf even here. Like, this is like literally just, we are going to punish somebody.
We want to send a signal that this type of speech is not welcome here. Right.

Speaker 37 So the issue here is they had these encampments.

Speaker 37 They were intimidating Jewish students. Sure.

Speaker 37 And the university was not doing a good enough job making sure that those Jewish students didn't feel harassed or threatened. And I understand that.

Speaker 37 There are multiple ways to effectuate a different outcome than to take someone literally off the the campus and then move them across the country to an ICE detention center.

Speaker 36 It's just to say this, it's just ludicrous to send this fucking person to Louisiana to put him in an ICE detention center.

Speaker 36 Like even if you agree, like, you know, even if you're, you know, in the, in the whatever, radical, if you're in the MAGA right wing of this and you're like, this guy should be kicked out.

Speaker 36 I'm very happy that he shouldn't have a green card anymore. Like putting him in an ICE detention center across the country is a ridiculous thing to do.
And again, it's an effort to intimidate.

Speaker 36 It's an effort to silence. It's an effort to punish this person.
Police rule.

Speaker 37 And police political action.

Speaker 37 And I get it. And look,

Speaker 37 the thing is,

Speaker 37 he's an easy target, right? Like, you and I are probably on a 30 side of a 3070 issue because here's a guy who's saying things that are essentially sympathetic to the Hamas cause.

Speaker 37 And I'm not sympathetic to Hamas, obviously.

Speaker 37 This is a fight I'm sure they chose.

Speaker 37 But if you believe in free speech, the test of it is not in easy cases. The test of it is in hard cases.
And you have to be willing to say,

Speaker 37 this guy has abhorrent views. I disagree with them.
I find them repulsive. He needs to be disciplined by the school.

Speaker 37 But he has the right to speech and he has the right to protest and I will not impede on that right.

Speaker 37 And what they've done is the exact opposite: they've used the instruments of the state to go onto a college campus, the so-called campus culture warriors or anti-campus cancel culture, and they've done gone and done it.

Speaker 37 And it's crazy to me. I've been heartened, I guess, by a few MAGA figures who've been like, This is too much.

Speaker 36 Like Ann Coulter. Candace Owens.

Speaker 37 Well, there might,

Speaker 37 she might have some different motivations.

Speaker 36 Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 37 She's not that great on the Jews.

Speaker 36 That's a good point.

Speaker 37 Yeah. But, you know, and I think,

Speaker 37 but I...

Speaker 36 I'm more interested. I actually don't care about the MAGA figures.
I'm more interested in the Rogans

Speaker 36 and

Speaker 36 my boy Theo Vaughn and like all the other free speech gut bros out in California that were acting like

Speaker 36 they're the fact that they could not say faggots.

Speaker 37 Ben Shapiro made a big deal about getting protested at college campuses when he was invited to do speeches and how his speeches were canceled because the

Speaker 37 insecure, whatever you want to call them, students on the school didn't like hearing bad things from him.

Speaker 36 Where's he? Yeah.

Speaker 37 It goes both ways, buddy.

Speaker 36 And they all just acted like the biggest threat to free speech in the world is if a social media platform

Speaker 36 deleted their post where they

Speaker 36 called somebody a fucking slur. Right.

Speaker 36 And that was this big threat to free speech. It's a big threat threat to free speech.
Like, they couldn't post about their fucking horse pills that they pretended were fixing COVID.

Speaker 36 Nobody came to their door while their wife was pregnant and was like, oh, we're going to take you away and send you to Louisiana. Of all places.
Of all fucking places.

Speaker 36 Like, nobody did that to any, like the Biden administration, which their great crime was like some mid-level Biden staffer emailing Facebook being like, could you kindly take down this post that has totally wrong information about COVID?

Speaker 36 That was the threat to free speech that, like, caused this entire movement of supposed free speech warriors to like rise up and pro and

Speaker 36 Mark Zuckerberg is in the White House. This is a new era of free speech.

Speaker 36 Meanwhile, Mark Zuckerberg's fucking cutting deals with the Chinese and not saying a damn thing about this guy that's in prison.

Speaker 36 So, anyway, I actually, just to be candid, just to close a loop on this, I have no idea what this person has actually said. So, I don't really want to weigh in on like what kind of person he is.

Speaker 36 The protests like that he was organizing had some signs and had some people involved in them that were fucking despicable. So I don't know, but it doesn't, I guess my point is it doesn't matter.

Speaker 36 At least with regards to the detention

Speaker 37 of this person. I would say the only thing I would say is if you believed that he was materially supporting Hamas, for instance, or that he was pushing her,

Speaker 37 then bring it up in a different venue with in

Speaker 37 file some sort of lawsuit against the guy for supporting terrorism. Yeah, that do that.

Speaker 36 Yeah, if they have, if that, you know, whatever. If there's some evidence that he was communicating with organizers on the ground in Gaza, like that are Hamas,

Speaker 36 charge him.

Speaker 36 Or then just strip his green card, right? Like I'm, again, the one area where this is like...

Speaker 36 There really isn't any area where this is gray, but like the one area that makes it complicated is that, again, he's like born in Syria.

Speaker 36 He's a Syrian, Palestinian, algerian citizen the british gave him security clearance for some reason i couldn't quite figure out why and um

Speaker 36 and so it's like okay if you have somebody like that that has a green card that's here legally that is communicating with a foreign terrorist group and like the and the foreign terrorist group wants him to do the protests here and wants them to be you know violent or whatever you know because they think that helps their pr aims then fucking take his green card and he can go home to to um syria or algeria or wherever he lived most recently.

Speaker 36 I would be totally fine with that. That is not what this is.

Speaker 37 No, and

Speaker 37 they're not asserting that. And that's the issue that people have: is that if you have something that you can charge him with, then charge him with it.
But they haven't.

Speaker 36 We walked into the office this morning, and you know, it's a Sarah Longwell office when at the front, at the front, there, there's a Wall Street Journal just kind of sitting there.

Speaker 36 It's a free Wall Street Journal at the front. Wow.
So I picked that up, looked at a couple of headlines. Okay.
CEO frustrations with Trump over trade mount

Speaker 36 in private. In private.

Speaker 36 Here's another one. American summer have had a lot to fret about so far this year.

Speaker 36 Between never-ending tariff headlines, stubborn inflation, and fresh fears about a recession, these concerns seem to be hitting spending by both rich and poor across necessities and luxuries all at once.

Speaker 36 So consumer confidence is down. Consumer spending is down.
CEO frustrations are up in private.

Speaker 36 Seems bad.

Speaker 37 Yeah.

Speaker 36 Oh, yeah. Shoot the house.
Accelerationism.

Speaker 37 It's not good.

Speaker 37 But it's sort of like hilarious to me in a sick, twisted way, that

Speaker 37 they're like befuddled that this could possibly happen.

Speaker 36 Oh my god,

Speaker 37 you're doing the tariffs?

Speaker 37 I didn't expect the tariffs.

Speaker 36 The man that bankrupted 13 companies says bankrupting America? Yeah, it's like, what?

Speaker 37 You didn't say anything about tariffs.

Speaker 37 So, and, and then he's so, it's, it's so chaotic. Every day is like a different, and it's not, he's treating it like a reality show.

Speaker 37 And, and I know, like, Howard Lutnick's out there, like the sort of MC of the reality show. Tune in next week.
Um,

Speaker 37 but it's not fun or productive or really particularly good for the country. And, you know, you've made this point, and I think it's the right one, which is like, if the tariffs were so fucking good,

Speaker 36 do them. Like, just let them go.
Let it rip. Like, why do we keep pulling back? Like, let's just let it rip.
We have kind of a lot of them out there. It's been so chaotic.
I can't keep track of them.

Speaker 36 I know. It's hard to keep track of them.

Speaker 37 Which ones have we put? Are we tariffing?

Speaker 36 We're tariffing Europe

Speaker 36 on steel and aluminum. Good.
And they're tariffing us back. Good.

Speaker 36 We have tariffs on China, which is kind of a bipartisan issue.

Speaker 36 But here's the thing. The rate, it's at a higher number than during the Trump first term.

Speaker 36 But we kept the tariffs from the Trump first term because Biden didn't get rid of them.

Speaker 36 And now we've added on top of that yeah a tear 20 tariff which is greater than the one from from the first term so like very significant uh tariffs on on china some on the eu and a lot of uncertainty with the canada mexico stuff i i don't know i say here's the figure let's just tariff let's just tariff i do too and he's fucking backed into a corner that my favorite story about all this so far has been jamie dimon

Speaker 36 oh yeah jamie dimon oh i hate these fucking guys so much these guys these guys i hate them worse than the maga people okay give me give me Give me 435 Steve Bannons in the Congress

Speaker 36 over fucking one J.D. Diamond.

Speaker 36 You have a soft spot for Bannon, though. Sure, that's a good point.
Give me 435 Candace. No, no, no, no, no, that's not 435.
I got to think about who it would be. All right, maybe not.

Speaker 36 But at least the MAGA people are genuine.

Speaker 36 Diamond,

Speaker 36 this kind of gotten missed because Diamond's suck-up to the Trump administration was not quite as

Speaker 36 totally fawning as all of the tech bros. But sometime in January after the inauguration, he's like, everybody's got to calm down about the tariffs.
Oh, right.

Speaker 36 You know, he did a whole like, we can, you know, we, Scott Besson's in there. People need to chill out.
The economy did great the first time under Trump. America is resilient.

Speaker 36 You got, we got all of this. Like, this is, we're in good hands here, everybody.
Calm down.

Speaker 36 It was, and it was yesterday, I believe, or maybe two days ago, the Diamond, during the earnings call, Diamond's like,

Speaker 36 we're seeing some pretty big issues with the tariffs as far as the impact on the business. And the banking sector is going to be the one that gets hit the worst.

Speaker 36 And, you know, from an accelerationism perspective, don't hate it. Let it rip.

Speaker 37 Scott Besson didn't stop all this.

Speaker 36 Scott Besan is a disaster.

Speaker 36 Scott Beson has been a disaster.

Speaker 37 I'm amazed at how ineffectual.

Speaker 36 The person that

Speaker 36 has looked to the best

Speaker 36 and the missus.

Speaker 36 Bring them back. I forgot Mary, what was her name? Louise Linton.

Speaker 36 Bring back Louise. What's she up to?

Speaker 37 Yeah, they're going to Fort Knox to check the gold.

Speaker 36 She was there.

Speaker 36 She had the light

Speaker 36 gloves

Speaker 36 holding the money. I miss it.
Bring back Louise Linden. Mnuchin was pretty good.
Okay.

Speaker 36 I do have sympathy for the public sector employees. I want to grab you.
You started a tip line for us.

Speaker 36 And I want to just get some, you know, what you've been hearing on the tip line. For people, though, that were not aware of the tip line, what is it again?

Speaker 50 Oh, God.

Speaker 36 The book.com/slash tips. Yeah.

Speaker 36 I knew that. I was just like, I was just setting you off.
I forget it.

Speaker 36 And we've been hearing from a lot of public sector employees and also

Speaker 36 private sector employees whose businesses are being affected by this, you know, because we live in a fucking complex economy these days. You know, it's not, we can't roll things back to the 1850s.

Speaker 37 Yeah, the Puma thing was really a telling thing. And just for people understand, Puma, the shoewear, athleticware company, cutting 500 jobs globally.

Speaker 37 And one of the decks that we saw for the reasons why had to do with what they called Hispanic hibernation, just basically Hispanics completely freaked out about the deportations and literally not going out and walking around and shopping.

Speaker 37 And that was what they said. The tip line's been really incredible.

Speaker 36 Also the tariffs they mentioned. They did mention the tariffs.

Speaker 37 Yeah, that goes without saying. The tip line's been really incredible.
And for those who've written in, thank you. You've helped us tell some really good stories.

Speaker 37 Look, I think the 30,000-foot takeaway from the tip line is this.

Speaker 37 There's been an incredible trauma inflicted upon people. And

Speaker 37 every day we get stories of like really tragic stories, honestly, of people being like, you know, I'm a vet.

Speaker 37 I've worked for, you know, the Department of Veteran Affairs or DOD or whatever for, you know, two decades.

Speaker 37 My wife's also a government employee. She's a park ranger or whatever.

Speaker 36 We both lost our jobs. And like,

Speaker 37 what am I going to do?

Speaker 37 What can I do? Like, there's no recourse. It was just that.

Speaker 37 Then we get like the ridiculous stuff, which is like, we got a tip the other day. I was like, here's a, here's a memo that Pam Bondi just issued.
This is a real thing. It was like, it was a memo.

Speaker 37 It was like from the desk of the attorney general. And people got were like, oh, boy, this has got to be serious.

Speaker 37 And it was like, you know, following President Trump's bold action we will be you know outlawing paper straws at the doj it's like are you no no what it was it also it announced their new it announced their new task force just doge oh yeah just doge that was one that came in yesterday it was like um we are we are working with doge and we've created a task force justice doge but we're calling it just doge and the person who sent me is like these class like they must spend so much time on this you've also gotten a lot from like the research community because

Speaker 36 that's a little less of a one-to-one than somebody who's losing their job. But it's like, you know, man, if you're doing research for...
Oh, this is tragic.

Speaker 37 Yeah. I mean, basically, people who either work at NIH or at universities who depend on NIH funding.
And it is just like the pullback is unreal.

Speaker 37 And we're going to, this is one of those things where you know it's happening, but like five years down the line, it's going to be really apparent because universities have basically stopped hiring big ones because they just don't know if these indirect cost caps are going to to come in and then the nih people are basically being forced to wait on whether their research grants are going to be even considered because there's been a communication pause so we get these tips and it's like people are just saying you know there's supposed to be a review session for my grant it just got canceled check out this website and you're and i don't know if i can just subsist on no money for the next three months until they consider it these are like the best and the brightest in our country trying to do great scientific research they need the federal government because the private sector won't fund this type of stuff It's long shot success rates, but important to take those shots.

Speaker 37 And they're just going to have to figure out whether to even leave the field or try to find some other country that might fund them.

Speaker 36 Yeah. I had two tips recently.
One came from the tip line, which I have to anonymize, but they were doing

Speaker 36 healthy growing of local produce. Right.
And, you know, no pesticides, all that sort of stuff,

Speaker 36 and selling it to the schools as part of a program, you know, where instead of getting, you know, your fruits and veggies from some fucking big truck that comes from the other side of the country, it's like a local farmer does it.

Speaker 36 You would think this would be in the Maha

Speaker 36 wheelhouse. This would be about as Maha as you get.
But no, no, Maha is going to steak and shake and having beef tallow fries and a Coke.

Speaker 36 We have a goke while we cut the funding for the dudes and dudettes that are that are growing

Speaker 36 local organic produce and giving it to the school children. That's what they're fucking doing.
That's number one. Number two is.

Speaker 36 That's incredible.

Speaker 37 That's so stupid.

Speaker 36 Why are we doing that? So stupid.

Speaker 36 Here's the other one. This was not from the tip line.
This was from.

Speaker 36 I'm just going to, you're going to laugh at me.

Speaker 36 This was unintentional. I was being on it.

Speaker 36 I did not mean to be nosy. Everybody has to be careful on a plane.
I'm on the plane here last night. Listening to you.
I was sitting next to

Speaker 36 Vannon,

Speaker 36 listening to Patrick Bet David.

Speaker 36 And I turn left and I look at this guy's computer.

Speaker 36 I didn't mean to read his computer, but

Speaker 36 the word MAGA just jumped out at me.

Speaker 36 And so I was like, okay. So I did the thing you're not supposed to do, which is like I read the text that he was sending on this computer.

Speaker 36 And it was some guy that works for an organization coming to DC to beg for money. And the text said basically,

Speaker 36 I mean, I didn't quote it because I didn't ask permission to look at his computer, but it was essentially, I found a woman that works for us with a southern accent who I think will better appeal to the mega types that we're going to need to convince to give us the funding.

Speaker 36 And it's just like, this shit is happening everywhere. You know what I mean? Like, that is dystopia.
That's like

Speaker 36 dystopia. She fits the part.
She fits the part.

Speaker 36 We found a blonde from Alabama.

Speaker 36 Speaking of Alabama, I told people that we'd have fun at the end.

Speaker 36 That wasn't fun?

Speaker 37 With the podcast. We're not done.

Speaker 36 Real fun. Oh, no, we're not done.

Speaker 36 We've got.

Speaker 37 Wait, can I just say about Steak and Shake? Yeah.

Speaker 37 We hired Will Summer. If people don't know Will, he's great.

Speaker 36 He's on the pod this week. Oh, yeah, yeah, of course.

Speaker 37 He was on Tuesday's pod.

Speaker 36 He don't pretend like you.

Speaker 36 I saw a clip of it.

Speaker 37 He's got a hilarious steak and shake story coming for Friday's morning shots. It's so good.
I can't give it all away, but it's really good.

Speaker 36 Subscribe to wall.com. We've got some new steak and shake content.
This has been brutal. Since you didn't listen to Tuesday's Pod, I can repeat it to you.

Speaker 36 This has been brutal for me because I grew up in St. Louis, moved to Denver in middle school.
Steak and shake was like our celebratory meeting. I got a good report card.

Speaker 36 Not really.

Speaker 36 But still, I have like nostalgic memories, so it hurts.

Speaker 38 Some moments in your life stay with you forever.

Speaker 40 In a special segment of On Purpose, I share a story about a book that changed my life early in my journey and how I was able to find the exact same edition on eBay years later.

Speaker 42 There are certain books that don't just give you information, they shift the way you see the world.

Speaker 44 I remember reading one when I was younger that completely changed me.

Speaker 46 Years later, I found myself thinking about that book again.

Speaker 43 I wanted the same edition back.

Speaker 47 Not a reprint, not a different cover, that exact one.

Speaker 46 So I started searching.

Speaker 48 And that's when I found it on eBay. That's what I love about eBay.

Speaker 40 It's not just a marketplace, it's a place where stories live.

Speaker 41 Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.

Speaker 39 eBay, things people love.

Speaker 46 Listen to OnPurpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 9 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 17 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 21 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 24 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 26 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 29 One thing's for sure: the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 32 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 36 Okay, finally, we gotta close the pod. I'm in trouble.
I'm in trouble. We're going to be late.

Speaker 36 We have a potpourri of Tommy Tubberville clips. Oh, yes.

Speaker 36 We're going to listen to three Tommy Tubberville.

Speaker 36 All of them are from yesterday. Okay.
This is just

Speaker 36 three clips from a single interview. I mean, this guy touching all the base.

Speaker 37 I'm excited for this, but what you should have done is you should have just read it to me and said, guess the real Tommy Tupperville clip.

Speaker 36 No. We are going to respond to each.

Speaker 36 We're going to do it one at a time and do a brief reaction to each clip, and then I'm going to have you rank which one's best to worst or the most most timey to the least time.

Speaker 37 Okay, most to the least.

Speaker 36 Okay, let's do it.

Speaker 51 But when it comes to protesters, we got to make sure we treat all of them the same. Send them to jail.

Speaker 51 Free speech is great, but hateful, hate, free speech is not what we need in these universities and they don't need to be doing things that they're preaching from Hamas about anti-Semitism.

Speaker 36 We got to treat all protesters the same, send them to jail. Send them to jail.
Send them to jail. Send them all to jail.
All right.

Speaker 36 And then the next sentence, the next thing is, I believe in free speech. Do you know what words mean? Words have meaning.
Antonin Scalia wrote about this. This is when conservatives were conservative.

Speaker 36 Words have meaning.

Speaker 37 Yeah, okay. Let's play the second one.
I'm going to rank these. Send them to jail is a great lie.

Speaker 51 People don't realize and understand is every state has their own department of education.

Speaker 51 It's not like we're not going to have a department of education, but every state, you know, I'm from the South. We have a different way of life in terms of education.

Speaker 51 We educate our kids and different curriculums. Everybody should do their own thing.

Speaker 36 Okay. Now, I just

Speaker 36 put a finer point on that one. In the South, we educate our kids on different curriculums.
Everybody should do their own thing.

Speaker 36 There's a generous way to interpret that, and then there'd be a less generous way.

Speaker 36 There'd be a very ungenerous way about the different groups that get educated in different ways.

Speaker 37 We have different curriculums for different people.

Speaker 36 Tommy. In the South.
So that's the education plan. Let's listen to number three.

Speaker 52 And Trump's tariffs making America great again. It's a great strategy.

Speaker 52 If somebody's finally doing something out of the White House, President Trump, that is, that says you have to take an action in America.

Speaker 36 Is that an eagle? Yeah.

Speaker 51 No pain, no gain. That's what we used to tell our football players.
There's going to be some pain with tariffs.

Speaker 51 But tariffs got us back as the strongest economy in the world when President Trump was in the first time. He knows what he's doing.

Speaker 36 No pain, no gain. He knows what he's doing.
Does he know what he's doing? I don't think so.

Speaker 36 I don't think he knows what he's doing. Sam, what do you think?

Speaker 37 The most Tommy's obviously send him all the jackets. You can't really top that.

Speaker 37 The no pain, no gain.

Speaker 36 That's Auburn, Tommy. Yeah, that's real.

Speaker 37 No pain, no gain is so cliched.

Speaker 37 I gotta go with it. I gotta think that's a lot of people.

Speaker 36 Separate but equal schools. Separate but equal schools.

Speaker 37 We had it really good back in the 50s when we had our own curriculums. Yeah, that was real.
That's real South Tommy right there. This guy,

Speaker 37 he's sort of a gem in a way, but not maybe,

Speaker 37 not maybe meant for the Senate.

Speaker 36 I mean,

Speaker 36 send them all to jail would have been a more funny and less alarming quote if it wasn't for the fact that we're sending protesters to jail. Exactly.

Speaker 37 But he's not enough.

Speaker 37 We got to treat them all equally. Send them all to jail.

Speaker 36 I hope that Glenn Greenwich.

Speaker 37 I think Tommy also probably appreciated the J6 Bardens to

Speaker 37 send those people back from jail.

Speaker 36 I hope the Glenn Greenwalds and the other big free speech warriors are happy about what they got, what they signed up for.

Speaker 36 Who could have predicted this? Last thing. Yeah.
That was supposed to be the last thing, but

Speaker 36 you're on real time with Bill Maher this weekend. I am.
Have you been on that before? You have. How many times? Seven?

Speaker 37 You haven't watched Tim? I don't know. Well, this makes up for me not seeing it.

Speaker 36 Okay, how many times have you been on this? This will be my fourth. Fourth time.

Speaker 36 How'd you do the other three times?

Speaker 37 First time I was super nervous.

Speaker 37 It's nervous. It's nerve-wracking.

Speaker 37 And it showed.

Speaker 36 I do kind of have a memory of a sweaty Sam. Sweaty Sam.
I'm on Bel Maher somewhere.

Speaker 36 Boy, Bill.

Speaker 37 I was like working on my jokes. Didn't really land.
And then the second and third time was good.

Speaker 37 Actually, one of the times I was on with Bill Crystal. And I think that was the second time.

Speaker 37 And we came out there and

Speaker 37 Bill Maher was doing this big dialogue about Dick Cheney and how terrible Dick Cheney was.

Speaker 37 And then he came to the panel and I was like, you know. That really hurt Bill Crystal's feelings.

Speaker 37 And we went from there.

Speaker 37 I don't know if Bill Crystal remembers that. And then the third time there was this weird joke and I remember this very well.

Speaker 37 He had some monologue about how a bee ejaculating into a flower and it was just grotesque. And we just kind of ruminated on that for a while and I was like, this show is different.

Speaker 36 It's a different show. It's hard to prepare for.

Speaker 36 You have you're going to have a big job though. That's putting any pressure on you for number four.
Yeah, because Bill and your co-panelist Batya.

Speaker 37 Batia.

Speaker 36 Batia is, these are very,

Speaker 36 these are people that, that, well, speaking of free speech, well, we're going to be talking about a big free speech advocate. Batia was a big, it was a Trump supporter and a big free speech advocate.

Speaker 36 There were basically two things that really motivate Batcia.

Speaker 36 She is upset about the Democrats' assault on free speech, and she also thinks that the elite Democrats just don't care about the working man anymore, do not care about the working people. And so,

Speaker 36 you know, you're sometimes, sometimes you play it a little cool for school, but you've got to kind of, you've got to kind of buck up here because you got to fucking

Speaker 36 go to

Speaker 36 war. It's like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah.
Well, how's the working man's, how's the fucking, how's the fucking working man's president? How's the free speech president doing, bacha?

Speaker 36 How's the working man free speech president?

Speaker 36 Are people's paychecks going further? Are we building things here?

Speaker 37 You want me to adopt?

Speaker 37 You want me to adopt your personality for Bill Maher?

Speaker 36 No.

Speaker 36 I just want you to step. I just want to.
I just want you to have a little more verb. Yeah.

Speaker 36 Punch. Yeah, I just want you to take it to.

Speaker 36 I have my own uh ways of doing these things okay have you said have you prepped any lines do you want to write down or do you want to write any lines right now i was told there was a piece of advice that someone told me uh which is if you prep lines for that show you'll you'll fail terrible yeah okay all right so we'll do what we're gonna do one role play then okay i'm bacha you're bacha

Speaker 36 Sam, these liberal elites, they just don't get it. They just don't get it.
All they care about now is just the deep state. It's Washington, D.C.
Washington, D.C. is where all the money is.

Speaker 36 The richest people in the world are all in McLean, and they're all out there, and they're all going to each other's parties, drinking cosmos, and they don't care about real people anymore. Correct.

Speaker 36 You better do better than that. You better do better than that.

Speaker 36 Sam Stein, everybody else. What day is today? It's Thursday.
I got to do this podcast again tomorrow. Oh, it might be out a little late tomorrow because my daughter is Hermes in the school play.

Speaker 36 Oh, nice. So we'll be taping the play, or I'll be going to the play.
I was running lines with her just like I was with you. She did better than you.
Hopefully.

Speaker 36 And she was a little, you know, there's a little timidity. And I'm trying to turn her into the biggest ham in the play.
That's amazing. So we'll see how it goes.
Congratulations. Thanks so much.

Speaker 36 Everybody else, come stick around. If it's a little late tomorrow, that's okay.
You can wait an hour for me. Up next in segment two, we got Congressman Jimmy Gomez from California.

Speaker 36 Stick around for that.

Speaker 38 Some moments in your life stay with you forever.

Speaker 40 In a special segment of On Purpose, I share a story about a book that changed my life early in my journey and how I was able to find the exact same edition on eBay years later.

Speaker 42 There are certain books that don't just give you information, they shift the way you see the world.

Speaker 44 I remember reading one one when I was younger that completely changed me.

Speaker 46 Years later, I found myself thinking about that book again.

Speaker 43 I wanted the same edition back.

Speaker 47 Not a reprint, not a different cover, that exact one.

Speaker 48 So I started searching, and that's when I found it on eBay. That's what I love about eBay.

Speaker 40 It's not just a marketplace, it's a place where stories live.

Speaker 41 Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.

Speaker 39 eBay, things people love.

Speaker 46 Listen to on purpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 9 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 17 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 21 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 24 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 26 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 29 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 32 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 36 All right, and we're back. He's representing California's 34th district on the east side of LA.
It's Congressman Jimmy Gomez. Good to meet you.
How are you doing, Congressman?

Speaker 54 Nice to meet you.

Speaker 36 I'm doing well. You know, I've noticed on social media, you've been getting a little spicy out there, and I'm looking for more spice from the Dems.

Speaker 36 And so I'm just wondering, biggest picture, what's your take on the kind of best messaging and strategy right now for the party pushing back on Trump and Musk?

Speaker 54 I think the best messaging is an economic message. This guy is making things more expensive out across the country when it comes to grocery prices, when it comes to housing prices, when it comes to

Speaker 54 anything you can think of, he's just making it worse. So I think we need to stick to that message.

Speaker 54 You know, this is a guy who said he was going to lower grocery prices on day one, and he hasn't done that. He's actually made things worse.
So I tell people, you got to...

Speaker 54 focus on where people are are at. And that's that people are still struggling.
Inflation prices, although they were reported that they it came in lower, but people don't have confidence.

Speaker 54 That's why consumer confidence is down, prices are up, the economic outlook is, you're seeing a big flashing red light of a potential recession. So we got to talk about where people are at.

Speaker 54 That's groceries, that's childcare, that's just the bread and butter stuff. And we have to stay focused.

Speaker 54 Right now, people are all over the place, but we always have to tick it back to an economic message, plain and simple. And people

Speaker 54 are pissed because,

Speaker 54 you know, if you're working multiple jobs to make ends meet and this guy is making it harder, of course they're going to be angry because there's uncertainty. They're scared.

Speaker 54 They have to take care of their kids. They have to take care of their parents.
So economic message all the way.

Speaker 36 I'm with you on an economic message being powerful and compelling. And frankly, it was an issue for the Dems in the last election.
That said, sometimes it's hard to break through, right?

Speaker 36 Just like talking about kitchen table issues.

Speaker 36 So, I mean, how can you talk about it in a way that gets through to people? Is it a contrast with Musk? Is it, I don't know, you tell me.

Speaker 54 Yeah, partly first is Democrats have to be relatable, right? Like people have to know you're a person.

Speaker 36 Are you a person?

Speaker 54 I'm a person. And I'm a working class person.
You know, my background is, you know, kid of immigrants, fucking went to a community college, worked shitty jobs, you know, all that.

Speaker 54 People have to feel that.

Speaker 54 And I've been recording on social media more videos about just grocery shopping because I help with the grocery shopping every week to show people, hey, I know what's going on because I see it every day.

Speaker 54 I don't have to read the statistics. I don't have to read the economic indicators.
I can tell you because I see people in the grocery store look comparison shopping.

Speaker 54 You know, look, oh, is this cheaper or is this cheaper? How can I make the dollar stretch? And Democrats are sometimes terrible at really kind of being relatable.

Speaker 54 And that's where people need to focus.

Speaker 54 But here's the thing, be authentic. Like if you're not comfortable doing the Kendrick Lamar, you know, viral dance, don't do it.
If you're a bookworm, be the bookworm.

Speaker 54 If you're like, you know, if you're the person that throws the F-bomb once in a while, do that. But be relatable, especially when it comes to how working people are struggling to get by.

Speaker 54 And that breaks through.

Speaker 36 Yeah, what were the shitty jobs you did?

Speaker 54 What didn't I do? When I was growing up, I had a couple of paper routes who didn't, though. I mowed lawns.

Speaker 54 In high school, I worked at a grocery store and I was handed like they're like, they handed me to the meat department to clean up the meat department.

Speaker 54 So one of my jobs was to break down all the equipment, scrape all the

Speaker 54 beef and all the meat and put it into scrape it into these big giant bone barrels. And then these bone barrels were sold to, I don't know if it was hot dog companies or

Speaker 54 dog companies, they're sold to somebody, but it's just all this, the scraps of the meat. And then I would spray everything down.
So every day I would leave smelling like,

Speaker 54 you know, hot,

Speaker 54 putrid beef.

Speaker 54 So that was one of my terrible jobs.

Speaker 36 Enough to make me a vegetarian there, Congressman.

Speaker 36 Back to the Elon thing in the Congress. And I do think I hear you on the kitchen table stuff.

Speaker 36 They're giving you a lot of opportunity by the fact that Trump's selling the richest man in the world's car on the lawn there.

Speaker 36 They want to extend the tax cuts for people, even if they're making a billion dollars.

Speaker 36 Is there either a policy or just rhetorical contrast there, you know, with using Elon as a peg?

Speaker 54 Oh, no, there's a huge contrast, and that's kind of what we have have to talk about. It make it relatable, though, and then talk about policy.
Because if they can't relate to you, they close down.

Speaker 54 The public closes their ears. They don't want to pay attention.
If they feel like, oh, you get it, then you can talk about that. And there's a huge contrast, right?

Speaker 54 The tax cuts that they want to give to the billionaires of the ultra-wealthy at the expense of Medicaid, you know, and healthcare and food assistance, that kind of stuff. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 54 And Trump, when it comes to only listening to people who are billionaires, right? He doesn't listen to the person on the street.

Speaker 54 He listens to the CEO of a car company who tells him, hey, you're going to cost us $20 billion over 10 years if you go along with these tariffs.

Speaker 54 So that's the contrast, that he doesn't listen to the average person or the working man and woman. He listens to the billionaires.
And then...

Speaker 54 You know, it doesn't matter if it even goes against his own values. You brought up selling the Teslas

Speaker 54 on the White House lawn. Who do they think buys Teslas? It's not the drill baby drill crowd or the MAGA crowd.
It's the left who cares about climate change.

Speaker 54 It is insane about everything kind of he's doing, but the contrast is there. It's a billionaire establishment that's taking root in DC.
And the people that are going to pay for it are

Speaker 54 doctors, firefighters, working men and women, people that clean your streets, take care of your kids. So we got to make it stick, but we also have to meet people where they're at.

Speaker 36 You said this with the budget you voted against. So we're taping this on Wednesday because I'm headed to D.C.

Speaker 36 So some of the Senate budget negotiations might have changed by the time this airs, Thursday.

Speaker 36 But you wrote, House Republicans' temporary funding bill hurts the economy, veterans, families, and gives Trump and Elon unchecked power to impose dumb tariffs, raising prices for everyone. I'm a no.

Speaker 36 Obviously, this passed with only one Democratic vote. This heads to the Senate because of the way the Senate works.
They're going to need seven Democrats if they want to pass it.

Speaker 36 What do you say to your colleagues in the Senate

Speaker 36 as they're looking at this shit sandwich that they sent across Capitol Hill?

Speaker 54 They got to man up, right? Stop just talking the talk about, oh, I'm going to oppose Musk and Trump. The way you do it is, do you vote no or not? Do you actually

Speaker 54 use the only power you have?

Speaker 54 We all know that the Senate is a super majority and they need two-thirds vote.

Speaker 54 So if those senators capitulate, they're setting also, they're not only continuing some of these cuts that are going to occur because of the CR, but they're setting up the long play for the Republicans to pass their massive tax cut.

Speaker 54 That's what it's about.

Speaker 54 Their number one priority is a massive tax cut that cuts taxes for the rich, the ultra-wealthy, the billionaires, the corporations, while gutting a lot of our programs that people rely on.

Speaker 54 This CR sets up that play. And if they don't like stop them now, it makes it easier for them to score a touchdown against the American people.

Speaker 36 What do you say to the Democrats and others

Speaker 36 watchers that are worried about this?

Speaker 36 That say that if the Democrats oppose this in the Senate, it leads to a government shutdown that allows Elon Musk and Russ Vogt to continue to run roughshod over the government in a government shutdown.

Speaker 36 It's going to cause real pain for people. Maybe the Democrats take some blame.
I wouldn't give the Democrats any blame, but unfortunately, the Bullwark podcast doesn't get to decide who's to blame.

Speaker 36 There are other people out there. So what do you say to people that are worried about that, about both the real pain that a shutdown would cost and also the political pain potentially for Democrats?

Speaker 54 These are legislative terrorists, and when you give them to them once, they're going to keep doing it over and over and over again.

Speaker 54 The ransom right now is you don't do what we say and cut this funding. We're going to shut down the government, right? But that ransom gets higher and higher and higher.

Speaker 54 And in order to basically break that, you have to show them that if they want to pass it, they have to do it on their own votes.

Speaker 54 And if they can't do it on their own votes, especially when it comes to the Senate, they have to negotiate. But this is for a long-term direction of our country.

Speaker 54 And if we don't stop them now, it gets harder and harder down the line.

Speaker 36 I'm with you on that. I don't know, though.

Speaker 36 I think that there's going to be some weak knees over there in the Senate. We'll see how it goes.

Speaker 54 It is the Senate.

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Speaker 36 I wanted to ask you about Democrats' struggles with Hispanic voters in particular, but also Asian voters. Your district is a huge majority of Hispanic and Asian voters.

Speaker 36 I think it's only like 10% white voters. Harris lost 13 points.
versus Biden on net in your district. Obviously, she still won overwhelmingly.
It's L.A., but that's a huge drop.

Speaker 36 And

Speaker 36 if you kind of project that out across the country, it explains a lot of why Trump won. And I think that's a big red flag for Democrats.

Speaker 36 I mean, I hear what you say about being relatable, but are there policy things?

Speaker 36 You're in the district. What is it that would have caused the Democrats to lose such ground with mostly Hispanic, Asian, and other voters of color?

Speaker 54 Great question. One,

Speaker 54 this has been occurring over numerous cycles. I know my consultant and different people, and including myself, try to warn the Democratic Party, you're losing Latinos, you're losing minorities.

Speaker 54 You need to start talking about these issues. But people always think, oh, they're part of our base, they're part of our base.

Speaker 54 But when you stop talking to people about the issues that are first and foremost on their mind, you lose them.

Speaker 54 And when it comes to Latinos, when it comes to, I would say, even working class whites, it's a lot about affordability. We wouldn't really do anything when it came to housing issues.

Speaker 54 We weren't doing anything to childcare. And that's what they care about.

Speaker 54 They care about like these folks, I would have consultants at the same time show me polling and they're like, hey, Latinos care about climate change.

Speaker 54 Then I would have to be reminded them, oh, yes, they care about climate change. And they're glad we're doing it, but it's not the main issue that they're going to vote on.

Speaker 36 Not if it means they're paying 20 more bucks at the pump every time they go.

Speaker 54 Yeah, exactly. So it's like, I've had this discussion with

Speaker 54 consultants. Oh, they clear about pro-choice.
So we're just going to do one message about being pro-choice. And I'm like, yes, but their first issue is

Speaker 54 my kid is not going to be able to buy a house in the same community that I live in. We can't afford rent.
We're barely making it, especially when it comes to groceries.

Speaker 54 You have to talk about issues that they care about first, right? And it's not saying that they don't care about.

Speaker 54 the environment. Latinos are some of the most pro-environment people around, right? You know, they they have a sour cream jar with chili in it, right?

Speaker 54 They use this, they use stuff over and over and over again. It's in our nature when it comes to being pro-environment.

Speaker 54 But when people are struggling and you're not talking about that, that's when you lose them. And that's where I'm like, you can do it all.

Speaker 54 You can still fight for the environment, protect a women's right to choose.

Speaker 54 But when you talk to the Latino community or communities that are struggling, you got to say, okay, what's the issue that's first and foremost on your mind? It's a hierarchy of need, right?

Speaker 54 It's like, if I like, if I can't afford food, I don't have a place to live, then like this other stuff, you know, I can't focus on that. So that, you know, the policies that I want to do,

Speaker 54 housing and childcare, these two pillars. And economists have said that they're costing so much that they're bending down the GDP growth of our economy, right? Like it's bending it down.

Speaker 54 This was last year. Trump is now doing more damage than those costs.
But if you want to kind of tackle the economy and affordability issues, you got to do that.

Speaker 54 Housing is now, Americans are rent burdened across the board, 30% of income towards rent. Childcare, 26%.

Speaker 54 And this is based on a pre-tax income. So you have 60% of a family's income going to two things.
Well, shit, no wonder why they can't get by. So we have to have an agenda that meets the moment.

Speaker 54 And that agenda is creating a housing boom that we haven't seen since World War II when the troops were coming home. We're building too slow, too small, and too expensive.

Speaker 54 We've got to break out of that.

Speaker 54 So we've got to tackle these problems at the federal level, but we also have to tackle it in the blue cities and the blue states that make building and construction too slow.

Speaker 54 too small and too expensive. So we have to provide that message because people care about housing and they care about raising their kids.

Speaker 54 And guess where most of working class people have their wealth?

Speaker 54 In their home.

Speaker 36 You're speaking my language on this stuff. I mean, I'm hooting you from the cheap seats on, you know, getting rid of red tape, making it easier to build, building more.
I'm with you on all that.

Speaker 36 And I think that makes a big difference. There are other folks out there, though, that would say that.

Speaker 36 that sure the economic stuff has hurt Democrats, but also some of these cultural issues, the Democrats went a little overboard on the left, whether it's immigration, whether it's crime, whether it's LGBTQ.

Speaker 36 I mean, I'm gay. I'm with the Democrats on most of these issues.
Maybe not all of them. Some of the crime stuff got a little kooky.
But what do you say to that?

Speaker 36 That maybe that it's less about the economic stuff and more about some of the cultural issues where Democrats maybe got a little out of step with some of the working class voters?

Speaker 54 Yeah, no, when it comes to LGBT issues, like for me, it's personal. I have a gay brother.
When he came out, my mom was not, you know, hardcore Catholic, wasn't very accepting. Yeah.
Time.

Speaker 54 She's like, now she stays the night over at their house, right?

Speaker 36 So it's kind of like

Speaker 54 people can change. But when people are

Speaker 54 suffering economically, the cultural arguments become more relevant. When they're not suffering economically, they become less relevant.

Speaker 54 And at the same time, I always say in the Latino community, almost like somebody always has a gay uncle somewhere, right? My brother included, they are a welcoming community.

Speaker 54 But you're always, when you talk to that Latino community, you talk to these other communities, you have to focus on the issues that are first and foremost on their mind, right?

Speaker 54 My mom, she's hardcore Catholic. She's for choice because she remembers when in the 70s when I was born and my brother was born before

Speaker 54 Roe, the doctor had to ask your husband's permission if you can get your tubes tied, right? Like they get that kind of stuff.

Speaker 54 The issues regarding cultural issues become more relevant when people are suffering economically and no one's doing anything about it.

Speaker 36 The fires in your district kind of is adjacent to Glendale up there. I'm just kind of curious how you assess what, how the recovery is going and,

Speaker 36 you know, whether you think, how you kind of score out the blame game here as everybody's trying to figure out

Speaker 36 how this got so out of hand.

Speaker 54 There's recovery going on, but the devastation was severe. Like I've never seen anything.
I took a tour of Altadena. I didn't, because it's the closest to my district.

Speaker 54 When it comes to the the blame like oh we got to just be sober about kind of what happened

Speaker 54 and how to fix the limit you know the problems right was it or not enough firefighters was there not enough water was it not like what happened and what was like that's we can do better right it's not don't blame learn let's learn about the mistakes that occurred.

Speaker 54 And I would say that's just across the board when it comes to governing in democratic cities and democratic states. Like government has to work.

Speaker 54 Government has to work if you want to continue to push progressive policies.

Speaker 54 If you flip on the switch of your light and your light doesn't come on or you turn the faucet and the water doesn't come out, well, you think people are going to care that you're combining climate change?

Speaker 54 No.

Speaker 54 So good governance allows you to be more progressive. It allows you to take bolder chances on these climate change policies, social policies.
But if all of a sudden it's just a train wreck, right?

Speaker 54 If it's like if they see their neighborhoods are less safe, they're dirtier, they're like people don't think that necessarily the firefighters or the police officers or the water is going to get, you know, is going to work when you want it to,

Speaker 54 you have bigger problems. So the way I kind of see it, and this is what I've been,

Speaker 54 we need to restore people's faith that government can work.

Speaker 54 Because government oftentimes the only way you can solve certain problems. I can't afford my own fire department or police department or sanitation department or school district.

Speaker 54 What I have to, what most people have to do, we come together to form a government that works.

Speaker 54 So it's counterintuitive, but we like people definitely need to refocus. refocus on making stuff work.
And then also, is it affordable? And is it a reliable?

Speaker 36 That's that's first and foremost all right lastly I'm annoyed you got Luca

Speaker 36 Just wondering what the vibes are like for the for the Lakers fans out there I'm a nuggets man I we have beat you on multiple playoffs in a row now so I'm not not scared about it but I'm fucking annoyed so I'm just wondering what the lake you see you seeing more jerseys out there what what's the what are the vibes like no people are excited about luca i think that came caught a lot of people um by surprise so i'm kind of like the home of um a lot of the the teams in LA.

Speaker 54 I have in downtown, you have the Lakers, the Kings, you also have the, I have Dodger Stadium. So this might be the real golden era of sports in LA.
But I'm excited about Luca.

Speaker 54 Dodgers are looking great. I'm like,

Speaker 54 you know, talking trash to Yankee fans, people complain that we're buying our way to the World Series.

Speaker 54 I'm okay with that.

Speaker 36 I mean, you kind of are.

Speaker 54 I'm okay with that.

Speaker 36 You're a capitalist. They say the Democrats are socialists.
You're a capitalist, man. Like, if we get you a World Series and if money can do it, you'll do it.
I like it. You got to win.

Speaker 36 Here's what's going to be competition.

Speaker 54 Winning is good. If you win, you can get to do more things.

Speaker 54 It's something that applies to sports as it applies to politics. When you're hot, bet big.
When you're cool, pull back. And we need to get on a hot streak.
So that's what I'm pushing.

Speaker 54 But yeah, my Dodgers, the Lakers, and then I think my wife was telling me that we just acquired somebody for the Rams that's looking good, so

Speaker 54 we're looking good.

Speaker 36 All right, well, winning is good. Well, Nuggets will see in the playoffs again this year, Nuggets and five.

Speaker 36 Uh, it'll be uh, it'll be painful, but uh, unfortunately, Luke will be there for a decade, so he'll probably get us once. Thanks so much, good to meet you, Congressman,

Speaker 36 Jimmy Gomez, really appreciate it. Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Blorg Podcast.
See y'all then. Peace

Speaker 36 in the shade where there's there's no sun to shine.

Speaker 36 I don't wanna play

Speaker 36 with the mother kids in the sun.

Speaker 36 Since you left me, babe,

Speaker 36 it's been a long

Speaker 36 way down.

Speaker 36 Yeah, you left me, babe.

Speaker 36 It's been a long

Speaker 36 way down.

Speaker 36 But you don't know I won't hurt you, yeah.

Speaker 36 Ignorance is bliss

Speaker 36 I'm a happy idea

Speaker 36 Waving it cards

Speaker 36 I'm gonna bang my head to the wall

Speaker 36 Till I feel like nothing at all

Speaker 36 I'm a happy idea

Speaker 36 To keep my mind off used up

Speaker 36 in a days

Speaker 36 and I've lost my mind

Speaker 36 I don't wanna stay where the blaze are mine.

Speaker 36 Since you left me, babe,

Speaker 36 it's been a long

Speaker 36 way down.

Speaker 36 Yeah, you left me, babe.

Speaker 36 It's been a long

Speaker 36 way down.

Speaker 36 So I shut it off.

Speaker 36 So I shut it all off.

Speaker 36 So I shut it off.

Speaker 36 So I shut it all off.

Speaker 36 It's been a long way down.

Speaker 36 It's been a long way down.

Speaker 36 But you don't know all Nigga

Speaker 36 in the suspense.

Speaker 36 I'm a happy idiot,

Speaker 36 waving at cards.

Speaker 36 I'm gonna make my end to the world

Speaker 36 till I feel like nothing at all.

Speaker 36 I'm a happy idea

Speaker 36 to keep my mind on me.

Speaker 36 The Boar Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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