S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point

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Speaker 2 Hey, everybody, it is Bill Crystal Monday, but Bill is traveling.

Speaker 2 So on Sunday, I sat in with him on a new thing he's doing on Sunday on our Substack page, which is live conversations around noon Eastern time.

Speaker 2 So if you haven't checked those out yet, please go to theborick.com. You don't have to subscribe to watch it, but we'd love for you to subscribe and check out our conversation from yesterday.

Speaker 2 Also, there's just so much happening, so many niche topics like I can't even get to on the pod.

Speaker 2 We are doing these one-off hot takes, and sometimes they're hot takes, but sometimes they're like interviews that are deeper dives on issues that we just can't get to on the pod on our YouTube page.

Speaker 2 But we started the Bulwark Takes podcast feed. If you go and search Bulwark Takes on your podcast player of choice and subscribe to it, you can get kind of one-off conversations.

Speaker 2 You know, if maybe I'm talking to somebody from Canada, or I talked to that guy who's reporting from Kyiv last week, those types of conversations, you can get those on the Bulwark Takes feed.

Speaker 2 So go check that out. All right, up next, SE Cup.

Speaker 2 Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
You might notice I'm sounded more masculine this morning. I'm on

Speaker 2 day two of the flu.

Speaker 2 And so I'm excited to have the laugher with me

Speaker 2 today because I need someone who can carry me on this podcast. And I found the right person.

Speaker 2 She's political commentator for CNN, contributor to their new show, Table for Five, hosted the Off the Cup podcast, which gets off the news, which we all need. It's SE Cup.
What's up, girl?

Speaker 8 Sorry, I'm so giggly.

Speaker 2 That was just really funny. Well, you know.

Speaker 8 And I'm sorry you're sick, honey. I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that.
I'm a little worried about the lights in here. I'm going to be sweating through at the end of the podcast.

Speaker 2 So, you need some good material because we're clipping your clips today, not mine. I don't think I'm going to look good.
All right. Uh, the last time we spoke, I don't know if you remember.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, we've texted or whatever, but the last time we spoke on the podcast was the day after the Kamala debate. Uh, simpler times.
Wow, yeah, I know, I know.

Speaker 2 It feels like a lifetime ago, or even another earth. I wonder what you make now of just the biggest picture, like the first seven weeks.
How does it match or change your expectations?

Speaker 2 Is there anything in there? Any green shoots? I don't know. Like just anything.

Speaker 2 Top line. What do you make of it?

Speaker 8 What's crazy is

Speaker 8 I thought the 2016

Speaker 8 campaign was incredibly disorganized.

Speaker 8 And then his first term

Speaker 8 for all the things

Speaker 8 was a was a bit more organized or at least it efforted at it. It brought in some good people.
He kicked them all out when he realized they were actually too good and wouldn't do his bidding.

Speaker 8 But this is the reverse. I found this 2024 campaign to be run in a very high-level way by Susie et al.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 the collapse of that organization and order on day one of this term has been, I guess, shocking, but not.

Speaker 8 I mean, I am so shocked at the level of disorganization and chaos, considering he came in, I think, with a way bigger mandate this time. I mean, I judge people for voting him in the first time.

Speaker 8 I judge them harder for voting him in the second time. And there were more of them

Speaker 2 this time.

Speaker 2 Plenty of judgment to go around here on the Bulgarian box.

Speaker 8 So I actually expected, and I think I said this various places, that like I was going to go into this administration with an open mind, Tim,

Speaker 8 and try not to get sucked into the industrial outrage complex.

Speaker 2 And how's that gone so far? Right,

Speaker 8 which is hard in cable news, but also in general, but impossible in this second term because it feels like the outrage is the point of everything they're doing because it's certainly not fixing shit.

Speaker 8 That's not the point.

Speaker 8 So, yeah, it's more chaotic than I thought. It's like unnecessarily chaotic.

Speaker 8 You know, there are lots of people in place that could help with some ordering of things.

Speaker 2 Sure.

Speaker 8 And then I look at his cabinet and I'm deeply, deeply scared

Speaker 8 for some of the people in there.

Speaker 2 Well, and those things are connected, right? I mean, like the types of people he's putting in is contributing to the disorder. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Surprise is never the right word because I expected an utter collapse. Like I expected everything to go to shit.
I didn't know exactly in what manner it would. Okay.

Speaker 2 You know, but I just, everything that Trump has ever done has ended in disaster, like basically, except for the reality TV show where he pretended to be something that he wasn't, right?

Speaker 2 So, like, I figured it would end in disaster. The fact that we are seven weeks in and we have this economic shit show,

Speaker 2 I think, is the thing to me that is the most interesting. I mean, the market is down again right now as we tape.
We'll see. Obviously, that could change in the afternoon.

Speaker 2 But, I mean, the market has been getting crushed. Our trading partners are fucking pissed.
There is total instability.

Speaker 2 There's not been any focus on like, you know, the side of Trump that's like the ribbon-cutting guy. You know, we haven't had that side of Trump at all.
Like, there's been none of that.

Speaker 2 Like, we're going to build new stuff here.

Speaker 2 There's really been pretty little focus even on like the regulation cutting. And occasionally, like, he'll mention that, but, like, yeah, so it's like on across every metric, it has been a shit show.

Speaker 2 And, like, this weekend, you have Maria Barrett Romo, like, basically being like, I think a recession is coming to him. I mean, Maria Bart Romo.
Right.

Speaker 2 I mean, this is not, I mean, like, I mean, she was like one of the most insane people during the Stop the Steal things.

Speaker 2 So some reality is breaking in on her show.

Speaker 8 Yeah, but elsewhere on Fox, I'm sure you've seen, they're already messaging the Biden recession.

Speaker 2 That in itself is a sign of just very dire economic circumstances, I would think, right? Yes. Yes.
So anyway, I don't know. What do you make about the economic situation?

Speaker 8 The other crazy part is the campaign and his voters. were so clear on the three issues, the economy being the top thing that they were going to the polls for.

Speaker 8 They didn't give a shit about pet seating migrants in Ohio, like all the crap that surrounded the campaign. Voters were super clear: don't care about that.

Speaker 8 We care about the economy, immigration, crime, period, full stop, end of sentence. Nothing cracked the numbers that those three issues did.
And again, economy at the top. So to come in and in his

Speaker 8 joint address,

Speaker 8 mention the economy, spend like, I think

Speaker 8 something like 7% of his speech addressed the economy specifically.

Speaker 2 It feels like a lot. I don't know.
It felt less.

Speaker 8 It took 30 minutes to even get to the economy and lowering costs.

Speaker 2 Mount McKinley was in there and complaining that the Democrats don't clap for him.

Speaker 8 Mount McKinley came first.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 8 Renaming Denali came first before

Speaker 8 the economy. Renaming the Gulf of Mexico hit before the the economy.
All this shit that no one said, this is why I'm going to vote for Donald Trump, came before the economy.

Speaker 8 And he doesn't have great economic news, but that's never stopped him. To still not put it front and center and even claim wins he hasn't gotten would be very Trump.
And he didn't.

Speaker 8 So I'm just wondering when these three issues are going to come back front and center. And like

Speaker 8 instead of addressing crime and policing, the the new MAGA thing is to get Derek Chauvin's conviction overturned or whatever or pardoned.

Speaker 8 I mean, it's just, it's going around the three big issues, and I just don't understand who this is for.

Speaker 2 The very online

Speaker 2 posters, I think, is who it's for. On the crime thing, which I didn't even have on my list, but it's a great point.
It's been the opposite. I mean, he's let out a lot of criminals.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So he's let out a lot of criminals and they've stopped. They've said that they're going to to stop investigating certain types of crimes of the DOJ to do a lot of white-collar crimes.
Right.

Speaker 2 So that's something they're going to do. And there's been no focus on like the getting criminal, like the cracking down.

Speaker 8 Even rhetorically, I haven't heard. I didn't mean to cut you off, but also

Speaker 8 the Doge cuts could delay deportations.

Speaker 8 The other thing of this three-legged stool, like they're getting in the way of their own and the FBI, people getting fired from the FBI.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, no, the Doherty situation, the guy in the New York FBI office, it was very well regarded.

Speaker 2 He was forced into retirement, reasons unclear.

Speaker 2 It could be related to, you know, retribution, could be related to the fact that he did some Russia investigations. Like, all of that is sure to come out.

Speaker 2 But, like, you know, he gets a standing ovation walking out of the New York office over the weekend. And it's like.
That's right. So, yeah.
So, like, they're firing law enforcement officials.

Speaker 2 They're defunding the police, like the federal police to investigate real crimes. It's not like DC desk, jockey, whatever, blah, blah, blah, deep state, like guys out in the field arresting criminals.

Speaker 2 They're getting rid of them. So, yeah, no, I hear you.
And that immigration thing, you could, I guess, give them whatever marks on, but like the economy.

Speaker 2 And he's on, again, they've now stuck into this message. They're going to the Biden message even worse.
They're like, well, there's the transitory. Now we're into transitory messaging.

Speaker 2 They've already gotten into that six weeks in, right? That they're like, oh, well, it's going to, you know, there's going to be a little short-term pain. All right.

Speaker 2 There's going to be a little short-term transition.

Speaker 2 And then Trump on the tariff thing, I don't know where you are at on this, but like there are still a lot of people out there that think he's bluffing, he's bluffing.

Speaker 2 But on the plane last night, when he was asked about this, you know, he, he basically says the tariffs are going to be what, what gets everybody rich. And he keeps falling back on that.

Speaker 2 And I think he believes it. So I don't, to me, it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Speaker 8 Part of me, at least.

Speaker 8 strategically, politically, I hope he's not bluffing. I hope he gets to do all the things he talks about doing so that we can see in evidence how they don't work.

Speaker 8 I mean, I think I know how they're going to go, but, you know, there's a whole half of the country that doesn't believe that, that believes everything he says. And so I'd like to just

Speaker 8 give him open reign. Now, I.

Speaker 8 I don't want the pain, the economic pain that I know that's going to cause and is already causing, but I hope he's not bluffing.

Speaker 8 I hope he gets to do it so he can't continue to say, well, if I got to do it the way I wanted to do it with no evidence, just do it. Okay, do it.

Speaker 8 Show us, do it, and show us how rich we're all going to get. I'm just sick of all the games.

Speaker 2 Me too. All right, now I'm moving on to the most outrageous stuff of the first seven weeks here in Ukraine.
So the intelligence sharing is still not happening.

Speaker 2 We paused that, I guess, to create enough suffering in Ukraine to force Zelensky to surrender.

Speaker 2 Zelensky said that Russian Russian forces launched 1,200 glide bombs, 870 drones, and over 80 missiles of various types at Ukrainian targets over the past week since we stopped the intelligence sharing.

Speaker 2 A higher percentage of those have gotten through. Trump said last night, it could be back soon.
Wait and see. We'll see.
I mean, it's pretty just sick what is happening right now. I don't know.

Speaker 8 Yeah, with friends like these, who needs enemies? We're enemies. I mean,

Speaker 8 we're enemies. We're the bad guy.

Speaker 8 with a bad guy in this and that's really hard to stomach for all the reasons i know you know as a child of the 80s and like a reagan republican this is bananas and awful but

Speaker 8 yeah the the intelligence sharing thing is how you know this isn't just as trump says a guy who wants a peace deal a guy who's neutral, you know, this is a guy who wants Putin to win because you don't take away the intelligence sharing for any other reason than you want to give Russia a strategic advantage.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 8 That's it. That's the only reason because it's not boots on the ground.
It's not even weapons.

Speaker 8 It's information and it's super valuable information. And so withholding that is the dickiest part of this and also, like I said, the clearest indication of whose side he is on.

Speaker 8 As if we didn't know. But that's how you know.

Speaker 8 And if I'm an ally watching around the world, I mean, the stuff he's, you know, he and his folks are saying about

Speaker 8 Japan, about NATO, about all the alliances that we've had for so long that I think are really important would make anyone very, very nervous about who America is anymore and what we're willing to do for anybody but ourselves.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I want to get to the alliances next, but just one more thing on the deal, the supposed deal. So they're in Saudi, I guess, this week.

Speaker 8 Yeah, Jeddah.

Speaker 2 Again, I guess we've decided to do this on Russia's home court. Yeah.
You know, I mean, we didn't. A lot of countries you could have pecked to do the negotiations, but we're to do it on.

Speaker 8 Was North Korea booked?

Speaker 2 Yeah, we're going to do it on an autocrat's home court. And there's mixed messages on whether the intelligence sharing can come back in.
But like the deal that is being leaked, and who knows?

Speaker 2 I hope maybe it'll be better. We can always hope, but is essentially that Ukraine surrenders, Russia gets the territory.

Speaker 2 Ukraine gives us the rare earth minerals in the hopes that that that will mean that we will defend them but we won't give them any security guarantees right and we might start giving them weapons again and we might start giving them intel sharing again and they have to have elections or or another option would be for zelensky to resign so like the short of it is basically surrender resign and pay us a ransom that's like the opening gambit here in the art of the deal yes and

Speaker 8 The maybe we'll give you weapons again, maybe we'll defend you again is irrelevant. They've already surrendered under the plan of this deal, right? They've surrendered already.

Speaker 8 Yeah, it makes no sense other than they want Putin to win. They want Russia to win, is how this makes sense.
And I don't know where that goes.

Speaker 8 I don't, you know, I'm not very confident in the deal-making abilities of this administration, to say the least.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, here's where it goes. I mean, the Europeans breaking from us.
So I've talked a bunch of last week about France, what they've been saying.

Speaker 2 There was a report out, high-level British sources are saying that they think it's time to stop doing the five eyes, intelligence sharing with the U.S.

Speaker 2 Romania is maybe not our most important ally, but I thought that this was an interesting quote from Romania.

Speaker 2 The butcher in the White House is knowingly weakening Ukraine's defense capacities in order for Putin to strike cities.

Speaker 8 My God.

Speaker 2 That's pretty blunt there from Romania. The Polish foreign minister is in a Twitter fight with Marco and Elon.
Marco is like demanding that he says thank you or the Russians will be on his border.

Speaker 8 And it's just all collapsing it's collapsing i can't it's collapsing the western alliance the atlantic alliance is just collapsing you could say we're we're becoming weaker yeah for all of trump's talk we are becoming a weaker force and presence on the world stage and that is shockingly by design it it seems like what they would call america first

Speaker 8 i would call a weakening of american exceptionalism and might and power and influence and preparedness it's in the way he talks about the economy as well well. There's this economic warfare.

Speaker 8 It's not boots on the ground, but it is warfare nonetheless, just to get back to the tariffs, mucking about in other people's economies, which is what he's doing.

Speaker 8 with threats and real tariffs is an economic warfare.

Speaker 8 And now all these talks of maybe militarily taking over Panama or Greenland, and then all of the withdrawing from these alliances and in fact, strategically breaking them on purpose.

Speaker 8 This is all a weakening of America and it does not feel like isolationism, which is, I think, what he was promising.

Speaker 8 This is a lot of interventionism to change global economic stability, to change global security, to change

Speaker 8 long-held geopolitical relationships. I mean, this is incredibly interventionist to me.
I don't know that anyone on his side will care, really, but I care about things like consistency and honesty.

Speaker 2 You, you know, a little bit more than me, I'm pretty much persona non grata in this world, but like you talk still to like national security Republican types, right? Some of them still

Speaker 2 chat with you. Like what, like,

Speaker 2 where are they? And we have a big budget thing coming up this week, March 14th. They're going to need to pass a continuing resolution to keep the government open.

Speaker 2 It only take three House Republicans to say, hey, I'm going to vote for this, but like the string attached here is that we got to do intel sharing again, or we have to at least provide the weapons that have already been budgeted, right?

Speaker 2 Like, you know, and it can be a small thing, right? But, like,

Speaker 2 I don't know. I mean, like, what are you hearing from that world that just is not worth fighting with the mad king?

Speaker 8 Yeah, basically, I mean, everyone complains, not everyone, let me be more judicious with my words, but I've heard a number of Republicans in the House and Senate and staffers complain about, like I I said, cabinet picks in these security positions, specifically Tulsi.

Speaker 8 One person I talked to called her a clown

Speaker 8 and voted for her because not being with this president on everything

Speaker 8 is, I feel like, not an option. So, you know.

Speaker 2 At least it wasn't a very significant role that he was voting to confirm a clown for, he or she, I guess. At least it was, you know, just the director of national engineering.
Just that.

Speaker 8 Just that.

Speaker 8 I know that there was some relief when she pushed back on Doge, when she pushed back on Elon and the, you know, the firing he's trying to do.

Speaker 8 There was a little relief of that, but she has since come out and said some propagandist shit about Russia that confirmed she is exactly who we thought she was.

Speaker 8 But no, I think there's definitely anxiety.

Speaker 8 among a lot of Republicans on the national security front, but a total unwillingness to do anything about it.

Speaker 2 I want to get to Elon and and Doge, Barlow. We've mentioned it a couple of times because I don't think I actually said it.
Elon tweeted, be quiet, small man, at the Polish foreign minister.

Speaker 2 Again, like, what are we doing? Like,

Speaker 2 the shadow president is just like berating on social media

Speaker 2 the Polish foreign minister who is just out there saying, hey, I paid for Starlink, so you can't take it away because I paid.

Speaker 8 And then threatening that he might.

Speaker 8 that he might turn it off.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he might just turn it off. I feel like maybe this is wrong.
I don't know why this exists in my memory, but maybe not during this campaign, but like at a time, you were kind of Elon Curious. No,

Speaker 2 never. You've always been Elon Incurious.

Speaker 8 Yes, deeply.

Speaker 2 So, okay, well, then that gives you clarity of vision here.

Speaker 2 One thing I guess you have been curious of that we all have are is streamlining the government. Yes.
So what do you make of his effort to do that thus far?

Speaker 8 Ridiculous, stupid, terrible, awful.

Speaker 8 I was pleasantly surprised to hear this interest in cutting the government, streamlining the government, making it leaner and smarter, because this is the rare conservative thing that this administration seems to have been interested in.

Speaker 8 And it's a bedrock of small government, limited government conservatism. So I thought this is good.

Speaker 8 I did not like the idea of putting an unelected man-child in charge of it, but that wasn't my choice.

Speaker 8 But no, I was very open-minded to this, but I cannot believe how clumsily and dumbly they've gone about this. I mean,

Speaker 8 no expert in anything would say that this is the way to fix any problem.

Speaker 8 What a waste. What a wasted opportunity because there is bipartisan support among the electorate for cutting fraud and waste and making the government smaller.
That's such an easy win.

Speaker 8 It's low-hanging fruit. You could easily win at this if you just did it in like a normal way.

Speaker 8 But, but Elon is, like I said, he's such a man-child who I feel like is running around the country playing at politics, like it's like with toys, like the economy is a toy.

Speaker 8 All these agencies are little chess pieces on his like big game board. It's ridiculous.
And I don't know when or if Trump will ever get tired of him embarrassing us on a world stage.

Speaker 8 Will that ever get tiring for Trump? I don't know.

Speaker 2 I think he likes it.

Speaker 8 But what does he like about it? Tell me.

Speaker 2 I think that he likes that this guy is the richest person in the world and he lands rockets and he hates the same people too. He does not land rockets.

Speaker 2 Well, he's had a few misses lately. Let me just tell you.
The one cool, the cool landing was cool, I guess.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 8 He more often does not land rockets.

Speaker 2 Yeah, okay. Well, you know, it's a hidden miss.
I think Trump, now we're getting deep into psychoanalyzing Trump, which I don't like to do.

Speaker 2 but like Trump sees himself as like the rich guy that wasn't respected by the other rich guys in New York, you know, and and I think that Elon and him have this in common, right?

Speaker 2 That like Elon's also been very successful and like these dumb liberals that didn't invite us to their parties or whatever, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 I think that there's something to that. There might also be something to the heat shield element of it.

Speaker 8 That, yeah, I've heard that. How long he wants that kind of heat shield, I don't know, but I don't know.
I wouldn't want to be embarrassed this way, especially if I had as thin a skin as Donald Trump.

Speaker 8 This is just, it's laughable. It's humiliating.
We are a laughing stock because Elon tweets at foreign leaders like they're just trolls, like they're Twitter trolls. He's swatting away.
It's crazy.

Speaker 2 Here's the other thing. When I interviewed Bannon like back in December, he was very,

Speaker 2 because he hates Elon. Yeah, right.
Right. But like he made this point that I take also, which is that like, in addition to being a heat shield, he's also Trump's hammer right now financially.
Right.

Speaker 2 And like, I think that unlike any of these other people that have been around Trump and embarrassing him at various levels, like none of them had their own base of support, right?

Speaker 2 Like Elon has its own Twitter base of support. Like, you don't, do you really want to get mad at him and have him sticking people on you? He's, he does seem erratic.

Speaker 2 He has his own financial support, like boots on the ground. It wasn't even just like writing a check.
Like, he was out there doing organizational stuff. Yep.

Speaker 2 You know, you could use him to intimidate somebody that's not going to support your agenda.

Speaker 2 Not that they seem to really care about legislation at this point, since they're just doing everything by fiat. So I do think that there's like some element of that too.

Speaker 2 That Elon has a little bit more leverage than any of these other Trump people ever have.

Speaker 8 I think that's right. I think that is true.
But then again,

Speaker 8 what does Elon have over Trump that Trump can't say, hey, let's let's cool it with this? Let's reign this in or let's do it this way. Let's get a little more responsible, a little less reckless.

Speaker 8 Like, why can't he rein him in? He doesn't want to. That's the part I don't,

Speaker 8 I guess I just don't get. But I'll.

Speaker 2 It's also been seven weeks.

Speaker 8 Psychologizing Trump has never been my strong suit.

Speaker 2 Here's the other thing about Doge that's like, here's just a prime example of the ridiculousness. I don't know if you saw this.
This was Friday afternoon.

Speaker 2 Tom Cole, who's like one of these old line Republicans that's still around. You kind of forget he's still in there.
He's from Oklahoma. He's the chairman of the Appropriations Committee.

Speaker 2 So, you know, powerful.

Speaker 2 And he wrote this: After working closely with Doge, I'm thrilled to announce that common sense has prevailed as the National Weather Center in Norman, the Social Security Administration office in Lawton, and the Indian Health Service offices in Oklahoma City will remain operational, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 He goes on. And Chris Murphy posted about this and is like, this is an insane system.

Speaker 2 It's a petition to the king.

Speaker 2 That's how we're going to do this thing. Like, this is a very un-American system where it's just like Elon's going to go in with a flamethrower and start burning everything to the ground.

Speaker 2 And, you know, you can get your thing rebuilt if you happen to be the appropriations committee chair from Oklahoma.

Speaker 2 But, you know, there are social security administration offices and places that don't have representatives like Tom Cole or have Democratic representatives or have insane MAGA representatives.

Speaker 2 And so I guess those are just going to go away.

Speaker 8 Yeah, it's this sing for your supper.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 8 And it's a, it's a theme, right? Why didn't he thank us? Why isn't he more thankful? This theme of you have to earn, you have to earn your democracy. You have to earn your government.

Speaker 8 You have to earn services you've already paid for. You have to reearn our support, even though we've, you've thanked us a thousand times.

Speaker 8 It's so much about them as if, and I said this before, like in that meeting with Zelensky, Trump and J.D. Vance looked like two losers on bar stools trying to be like, we own this bar.

Speaker 8 Who are you coming in here? You don't own the bar. That's not your house.
The White House isn't yours. It's our house.
It's our house. You are public servants.

Speaker 8 There is no awareness of the public service aspect of this job. And the only people that could really get in their way are Republican lawmakers, and they're not doing that.

Speaker 8 So there's no stopping this.

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Speaker 2 So here's somebody else that might be able to get in their way, at least Elon's way, not Trump's way. Tesla's stock is down

Speaker 2 25% this month. And here's a rant from your boy Dave Portenoy of Barstool Sports.

Speaker 2 He was on.

Speaker 2 You know, Dave? Yeah, I think he's on Fox Business or one of these shows. And I just want to play a little clip from it.

Speaker 9 If you're going to send emails to federal workers and say, what have you done for the last five days?

Speaker 9 I think Tesla shareholders are entitled to ask their CEO, Elon Musk, what have you done for Tesla the last five days?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, Tesla's down another 8% as we speak right now.

Speaker 2 When that rant was going, Tesla's at 280 something, it's at 239 as we talk right now. So it was already going down when Portnoy did that rant.
It's going down a bunch since then.

Speaker 2 There's maybe something there. maybe he'll be able to be bullied out by

Speaker 2 his fiduciary responsibility to his company no

Speaker 8 you know i don't know i know having covered elon a bit before

Speaker 8 doge

Speaker 8 you know people are scared of him too inside his companies he is vengeful inside his own companies. He fires people when they say things he doesn't like.
And so I don't know.

Speaker 8 There might be a culture, even among his shareholders, of

Speaker 8 a fear of retribution so i i don't know and dave is right and it's a great idea but i just wouldn't put a ton of hope in the idea that

Speaker 2 someone out there is going to hold him accountable what do you make of the corruption side of this i i kind of hate the question like will this have political salience it's kind of like who cares it's a long time away but i I do just wonder how the port noise of the world and like these more soft maggots.

Speaker 2 it's maybe even unfair to call them soft maggot, but whatever. Like the people that were that got caught up in Trump, you know, that were less ideological about it.
Let's put it that way. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, they don't like the corrupt shit. Apparently, Musk had 32 investigations into his company since Trump took power.
All of them are being quashed.

Speaker 2 I've talked a bunch about this Justin Sun guy. He's a Chinese crypto magnet that

Speaker 2 put 50 plus million into Trump's worthless various crypto, you know, grips. And now the SEC isn't investigating him.

Speaker 2 And I think this is just the tip of the iceberg of the corruption that's going to happen on all this stuff. I don't know.

Speaker 2 Do you think that there's going to be some salience there, or do we just live in a kleptocracy now?

Speaker 8 Yeah, we live in a kleptocracy.

Speaker 8 Also,

Speaker 8 a plutocracy, what I'm calling a plutocracy, because of the tech specificness of our plutocrats today.

Speaker 8 We do. And yeah, the Starlink contracts, I think I said something like, it's like making the arsonist the fire chief, but also

Speaker 8 the accountant, the head of HR, the guy who decides the insurance payouts.

Speaker 8 And awarding him contracts and accelerants.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 8 Like, because Elon is overseeing agencies that regulate his businesses

Speaker 8 and decide whether his businesses will live or die. Like, I mean, it's, it's crazy.

Speaker 8 And this should be a huge V story. Imagine the Clinton era, right? Of trying to find

Speaker 8 bits of corruption anywhere you can, right? With whitewater, these really kind of complicated, you really have to look for the corruption. It was there, of course, but you really have to find it.

Speaker 8 This is such obvious corruption and self-dealing.

Speaker 2 The Hunter Biden paintings. You know, that was some corruption, but this is like apples and oranges.

Speaker 8 And suddenly, nobody cares. Nobody cares that the George Soros of MAGA

Speaker 8 suddenly, I mean, I feel like I had my memory erased. Like someone's trying to erase my memory from the past 20 years

Speaker 8 of conservatism. We're like, remember when that stuff mattered? Boom, severance.
You're at work now. You forgot all of that.

Speaker 2 Like, it's crazy. I mean, the real explanation is that for most of these people, it didn't matter.
It was team jerseys and you're putting your team jersey on and whatever.

Speaker 2 And it's like, this is just like the most extreme. It's like a sociological sociological experiment

Speaker 2 of that. It's like, how ridiculous could we make? Like, how ostentatious could we make the corruption and demonstrate that you still don't actually care?

Speaker 2 Like, we'll have the president start a worthless coin eight hours before he becomes president. See if anyone can let shadowy foreign governments and individuals pay him for this worthless coin.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Millions upon tens of millions of dollars. And we'll just say, do you care about that? Or did you just care about the mark-rich part? You know what I mean? Right, exactly.

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Speaker 2 Well, while we're discussing the Democrats, I do have one Democrat to pick on today, just because I just think it was just such a prime example when I was watching this sick over the weekend of like why it's important

Speaker 2 for

Speaker 2 everybody to get out of their bubble. You know, you got to get out of your bubble a little bit.

Speaker 8 Oh, good. Tell me who offended.
I love these.

Speaker 2 It's Stacey Abrams. If you get stuck in your bubble and then you start to make arguments.

Speaker 8 I expect nothing less, by the way.

Speaker 2 That don't, exactly. That don't make any sense.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And you have to at least be able to hear the critiques. Even if, even if you grant that like 94.7% of the mega critiques are bad faith or BS.

Speaker 2 You got to at least listen to them so that you can understand how to push back on them and so that you can kind of address the 5%

Speaker 2 that accidentally were legit.

Speaker 2 So here it is. Stacey Abrams, I guess, got $1.9 billion.
She was the head of this group. And Chris Hayes...
in a very friendly way, just kind of asked her to explain what all the hubbub was about.

Speaker 2 I wanted to play for you her explanation of how she was going to use the $1.9 billion taxpayer dollars.

Speaker 10 In 2023 and 2024, I led a program called Vitalizing DeSoto.

Speaker 10 We worked in a tiny town in South Georgia to demonstrate that by replacing energy inefficient appliances with efficient appliances, you can lower your costs. And in fact, we accomplished that.

Speaker 10 For 75% of the community, they got appliances that are lowering their bills right now. We had one woman who saw her electric bill cut in half from $180 to $98.

Speaker 10 That's what we delivered. And based on that program, a coalition of organizations,

Speaker 10 famous organizations, came together and said to the EPA, if we can do this here, we can do this for millions more Americans. Let us invest the money of America in lowering the cost for Americans.

Speaker 10 And the EPA said, okay, great, go for it.

Speaker 2 So, DeSoto, Georgia has 116 homes in it in the town. Okay.
So,

Speaker 2 I mean, I guess it seems good what happened in that. Yeah,

Speaker 2 it seems good. It seems good what happened in that trial program.
But it's like, okay, so what are we doing? Okay,

Speaker 2 I guess if you came to me and said, our plan was to give 2 million poor people new appliances.

Speaker 2 I probably would have said, okay, that seems like a dumb program. I mean, that seems like a good program for a non-profit.
The Gates Foundation could do that or whatever.

Speaker 2 Or, you know, but if it's the government, it's like, maybe we we should just give them cash or not do that or pay down the debt or whatever.

Speaker 2 It's just like we have this very convoluted system where we're going to like replace toasters in homes for 1.9 billion.

Speaker 2 I just don't think that anybody who is not totally in the tank would listen to that and be like, great point. Right.

Speaker 2 And like, if you listen to that minute-long explanation and compare it to Donald Trump just being like, Stacey Abrams got $1.9 billion to give people toasters. Like, who's winning the argument?

Speaker 8 He is.

Speaker 2 He is. He is.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Those those are the kinds of things.
Like, I don't know if it's bubble or

Speaker 8 not really understanding where we're at.

Speaker 2 Money.

Speaker 8 Money, right? Yeah, and solving big problems, right?

Speaker 8 It feels a little like bringing a knife to a gunfight when you're like, like, this is not what's going to win your voters back, what you need. And this isn't addressing your policy problems.

Speaker 8 The policy problems that Democrats have are that the top three concerns of the country were not being solved by Democratic policies.

Speaker 8 We've already said the economy, inflationary economic policy didn't work. At the border, open borders didn't work.
And crime, soft-owned crime policies didn't work. Whether perception or real,

Speaker 8 that is where we're at.

Speaker 2 The crime issue was getting better by the time Biden, by the end of the Biden campaign.

Speaker 8 The FBI had to revise its numbers, and no one said anything about the fact that they then showed crime is actually going up.

Speaker 2 Sure.

Speaker 8 I wonder why. I gave you the perception part.
I gave you that some of this could be perception, but these are the top three problems. Democratic policies did not solve them for many Americans.

Speaker 8 So to ignore those top three things

Speaker 8 and decide it's really a question of leadership. David Hoag is going to fix this over at the DNC.

Speaker 8 Or it's really a question of like how we, you know, how we message this. Or it's a question of whether we protest at the joints address and hold paddles up.

Speaker 8 That's going to solve it or stacey abrams big solution here's what i did with

Speaker 8 billions of dollars this is so missing this is so missing the obvious point and alyssa slockin who i know and really like

Speaker 8 got the closest to that got the closest to it in her address when she talked about listen people want cuts Okay, that's acknowledging something that many Democrats do not do not acknowledge.

Speaker 8 People want cuts. I have a different way to do that than the current administration is doing it.
People want to lower the cost of goods.

Speaker 8 I would have a different approach to that than this administration is doing.

Speaker 8 Democrats need to accept the problems that Americans are telling them they have and offer different solutions instead of protesting about Elon or Trump paying taxes. I mean, none of that is it.

Speaker 8 That ain't it.

Speaker 2 That's very good. And I would add on the list of problems that the American people have,

Speaker 2 I did not notice a big clamoring that was like, I really want the government to give me a new microwave. What I really need right now is a new high-efficiency microwave.
And I want to do it at scale.

Speaker 2 I want it at scale.

Speaker 8 I haven't gotten a raise in five years. I'm working three jobs.
I'm worried about my kid and opioids. I'm worried about crime in my town.

Speaker 2 But give me a new energy efficient oven. It's going to cut 60 bucks off my monthly bill.

Speaker 2 My buddies that are in, who I love, by the way, that are in renewable, you know, kind of hedge fund world are going to be mad at me for this one shaking their finger but I actually I just want to reiterate I'd support this as a nonprofit effort yes as an effort in the private sector right figure out ways raise some cash go do this great or what if what if the government offered like a GE

Speaker 8 some subsidies for giving people new energy efficient appliances something something simple good We're on record. We also want to solve

Speaker 2 something simple. I'm fine with it.
It's just, you know, it's like, that's just not the best explanation that you can correct.

Speaker 2 I think the right explanation is just to not do interviews, if that was really the best you have.

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Speaker 1 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal. Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 1 Why is Adam after the Tanner family? What lengths will he go to? One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 1 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 2 I'm going to move on to Andrew Tate, who is a real fucking loser and, you know, makes Stacey Abrams look like you should get a Stacey Abrams candle by comparison.

Speaker 2 This guy and his brother are back in the country. You hate to hand it to Ron DeSantis, but they came to Florida and Ron DeSantis was like, no, this is not Florida.
We're going to investigate you.

Speaker 2 So good on Ron DeSantis. But then he heads out to Vegas.
Dana White, who's now on the Meta board, gives him a welcome to the States, boys, bro hug when you arise the USC fight, Cash Patel.

Speaker 2 The director of the FBI is at the fight, just sitting near these two

Speaker 2 predators that had trafficked women

Speaker 2 and like kept them in a fucking like video prostitute home, whatever you want to call that, and bragged about it. J.D.

Speaker 2 Vance, I noticed you pointed out follows one of them on Twitter as a big fan, both of them. Oh, Tristan and Andrew.
Yep. Like, this is fucking sick.
Like, this is sick.

Speaker 2 Going back to our top thing, also, this has been a priority. Like, they could have just ignored this one.

Speaker 2 But, like, the administration decided, no, bringing Andrew Tate and Tristan Tate back to the States was an important negotiating thing that they needed to do with Romania.

Speaker 2 And now they're all kind of broing out in Vegas.

Speaker 1 The

Speaker 8 corrosion of

Speaker 8 the Republican Party

Speaker 8 and the place MAGA has pushed it into

Speaker 8 is

Speaker 8 one now where you have to reflexively,

Speaker 8 you don't have to, but

Speaker 8 people believe that you have to reflexively defend the worst kinds of people

Speaker 8 to own the libs, to champion free speech, whatever it is, you have to, because it's not, it's the young Republicans, a group that helped bring me into. a movement of conservatism with principles.

Speaker 8 It's, you know, Dana White and these other Trump acolytes.

Speaker 8 It's the vice president following these boys.

Speaker 8 And it's a ton of right-wing influencers giving them a moral pass and even saying, though, they haven't been proven guilty. They've admitted to doing what we're saying that they're doing.

Speaker 8 As if there's some technicality so we can ignore all of that

Speaker 8 is

Speaker 8 insane, but so reflective, so illustrative of how far the Republican Party has devolved and in jettising all the principles. This is what's left.

Speaker 8 This is what they're moored to. I think more than anything else, I don't mean this like child predators.
I mean defending the indefensible

Speaker 8 is kind of what they're left with because the principles are gone. The things binding conservatives together inside the Republican Party, that's gone.
This is what they have.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I thought the most telling exchange about this was Gates posted something about DeSantis and basically said that DeSantis is virtue signaling.
It's total nihilism, right?

Speaker 2 Like there's nothing that is worth defending just on the merits.

Speaker 8 And it's nihilism and it's

Speaker 8 personal grievances, right? Matt Gates is mad at Ron DeSantis. That's why he tweeted this.
This has nothing to do with the tates.

Speaker 8 Just like nothing has anything to do with morality or principles or even whether things are working. It's just personal grievances and what you can get from people.

Speaker 2 Depressing.

Speaker 8 I am pleased to see a lot of Republicans and sort of conservatives come out against the Tates

Speaker 8 saying unashamedly, you know, people on the far right in right-wing media saying unashamedly, these people are terrible. Stop defending them.
I've seen more of that than I thought maybe I would.

Speaker 2 Okay, that's worth saying. I would ask, though, who do you think is going to win that battle? Sure.

Speaker 8 Yep, we know.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

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Speaker 2 Speaking of terrible people, our HHS Secretary, RFK, he's been kind of quiet. I've been noticing we haven't Maha'd a bunch, but we do have a new measles case in Maryland.

Speaker 2 And then we've got the Department of Ag, a new character for our show is Brooke Rollins. I don't feel like anybody gives this woman enough attention.
She's the Secretary of Agriculture.

Speaker 2 She posted on Instagram. I feel like this is related to RFK.
You'll see why. Yep.
I know we're going.

Speaker 2 Rollins told the Breitbart News that Trump's administration will be focusing its egg price reduction efforts on repopulation of chickens.

Speaker 2 And that administration is now ruling out any vaccines for animals against avian bird flu. We'd actually just come up with like a vaccine for chickens, I guess, in February.

Speaker 2 It had been finally approved. And the ag secretary is saying, nope, not going to do this.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 We're worried that Bill Gates is going to get his microchips into the chicken, which will get into your Popeyes, which will then get into your system.

Speaker 2 I don't exactly know the rationale for not doing that. But so, no, we're not going to vaccinate the chickens.
And we've got measles in Maryland. So, I don't know if you've ever seen it.

Speaker 8 And also, you should raise your own chickens if you want to lower the price of eggs.

Speaker 2 Yeah, just get a little in your backyard, get some, yeah, get some wire.

Speaker 8 Yeah, inner city, who cares?

Speaker 2 Get a little crate. Now, that the lumber for your little crate is going to cost a little more because we're tariffing

Speaker 2 Canada now,

Speaker 2 but that's okay.

Speaker 8 That steel wiring, too, that's going to go up.

Speaker 8 But, um, yeah,

Speaker 8 I don't want to laugh about measles in 2025.

Speaker 2 One child has died.

Speaker 8 It's happened. This is heartbreaking and disgusting and preventable.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 8 if this happens in numbers, we are no longer a first world country, right? If we're dying, if our children are dying of diseases,

Speaker 8 we can prevent. Science has a tool for this.

Speaker 2 I don't know know how we call ourselves a civil society i don't know how we call ourselves a first world country it's crazy that's pretty bad do you have any other any other rfk any other maha thoughts um i'm pleased at how quiet he's been but that also makes me nervous what's he doing in this when we're all paying attention to elon what is he doing we're gonna keep our eye on rfk our final topic um it's kind of a big thing thing i mostly just want to listen i just wanted to point our listeners to it because it's very interesting noah smith we've had on wrote a sub stack post the thesis of it is basically that like the liberal world order from fdr essentially

Speaker 2 through 2015 like now now we have a little bit of distance it seems like with trump's election in 2016 that might like be the end of that era and uh there's this question about what will replace it you know i think he's of the view i still have the hope that that it could be cobbled back together looking worse and worse every day but if the view is that something else is going to replace it he points out, I think, pretty sharply that, like, MAGA cannot actually be the thing that replaces it because it's a destructive force and that they haven't actually built anything.

Speaker 2 They don't seem to be capable of building anything.

Speaker 2 It's a very long think piece, but I think it's important to kind of start to wrap our heads around, you know, both that question, whether MAGA is capable of doing this, and if not, that what.

Speaker 2 So I just wanted to see if you had any deep thoughts on that you wanted to leave us with. Well,

Speaker 8 yeah,

Speaker 8 I challenge this premise a little bit.

Speaker 2 Please.

Speaker 8 Because

Speaker 8 MAGA hasn't built anything

Speaker 8 is true a bit,

Speaker 8 but he seems to be dismissing the,

Speaker 8 I mean, he is dismissing the online infrastructure. Yes.
His indictment is that MAGA is just an online fan fiction kind of. Correct.
movement. And he's not wrong, but that is incredibly powerful.

Speaker 8 And for everything that Democrats built, their grassroots and their young Democrats and their

Speaker 8 it has not

Speaker 8 made them a dominant force in American politics in a very long time. I mean, since Obama, I don't think Democrats have had a ton of persuasive power.
I think he's right.

Speaker 8 about identifying the nature of the MAGA movement, but that is powerful in itself.

Speaker 8 I would also say,

Speaker 8 whatever's going to replace

Speaker 8 Trumpism,

Speaker 8 the Republicans have not built yet. The Republicans haven't created that.
And because, like I said, they've jettisoned the conservatism, the principles, there's nothing mooring

Speaker 8 MAGA to anything static. It's only moored to what Trump just said.
The last Trump impulse is what is currently defining the MAGA movement. movement.
Well, that's by design.

Speaker 8 Trump not defining his principles, the Trump, you know, the Trump order, the Trump version of foreign policy, not defining that is intentional.

Speaker 8 And it's actually, you know, people who study mass movements will say that that's a really important thing to do.

Speaker 8 If you want a movement to grow and continue, you can't define it because once it's accomplished, those minimal goals it ceases to be important. So you have to leave it sort of ambiguous.

Speaker 8 And Trump leaves it ambiguous because he doesn't know and he doesn't know what he wants it to be or what he stands for, other than these transactional kinds of

Speaker 8 ideas. So,

Speaker 8 MAGA is moored only to Trump, which means when Trump goes, either, you know, he's not in office anymore or he dies, it's really not moored to anything. And it's not more to Don Jr.

Speaker 8 It's not more to J.D. Vance or whoever the successor is.
It's really just attached to him and defined by him. So

Speaker 8 that could leave room for a lot of things to come and fill that void, some really ugly, gross things, but also maybe conservatism again, who knows?

Speaker 8 But it's not going to be,

Speaker 8 it's not, it cannot carry on.

Speaker 8 Trumpism can carry on in voters, but it can't carry on as a defined movement, I don't think, without Trump. And I don't see anything

Speaker 8 past Trump for MAGA other than just the kind of chaos and running around and how do we try to emulate it, but no one's going to be able to do that very well.

Speaker 8 And so I think you're going to have all these like fractious groups of like the white nationalists over here, the America First people over here. And I just think it's going to be kind of a mess.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 That could be messy too. And at some level, there is like

Speaker 2 some weak links, but some links between,

Speaker 2 you know, Orban and Bolsonaro, although he's out now, and, you know, Le Pen and Maloney and like and Farage and I, you know, and so maybe there's something that kind of emerges out of all that.

Speaker 2 But I don't know. To me, the most interesting thing about it, why I wanted to raise it, besides just recommending to listeners that they go check it out, is that

Speaker 2 I essentially agree with the premise that, and I think Bannon does too, who is, I think, really the person that is most in touch with the actual ideology to the extent there is any with MAGA, is that it's a destructive movement.

Speaker 2 Like, I think that is like the right thing.

Speaker 2 And it is not really, you know, it's not really prescriptive at all about like, once we tear down the administrative state, once we tear down the Western alliances, once we get rid of these liberal elites that everybody hates, then it's kind of like, we'll see what happens.

Speaker 2 Like, honestly, honestly, like, we'll see what happens. We're going to tear down this order and rebuild something new.
And some people have thoughts. TBD.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Some people have thoughts within the movement, but there's no cohesiveness.

Speaker 2 And I just think that because of that, it will leave us, assuming we get rid of this guy and get over it, with kind of like a really open aperture, like both on the right and on the left for like different types of things to fill it.

Speaker 2 And in some ways, this is why I wanted to leave with this. In some ways, that is exciting.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 My small C conservatism is like, it's like scary in some ways because it's like, I thought the old order was like pretty good.

Speaker 2 I had some complaints on the edges, but I could have stuck with the old order. But if you accept the thesis, I do think that there's an opportunity there for somebody that wants to seize it.

Speaker 2 So, anyway, I don't know. Do you have any final thoughts on that? Or is that good?

Speaker 8 I do too. And I think I was trying to get at that: like

Speaker 8 there's going to be such a vacuum

Speaker 8 because of all of this unmooring that it could create an interesting opportunity for either or both parties. But by that time, like, will we survive this? Like, by that time,

Speaker 8 like, how much more corroded and eroded and diluted will we be as a country, but also these two parties?

Speaker 8 It'll be interesting to watch. I might maybe hope I'm not alive for it.

Speaker 2 It was important and on brand for the Bullard podcast that you take us to the dark note to end because I agree. Will we survive it? Open question.
Fair question.

Speaker 2 We'll be discussing, we'll be discussing it every day, even when I have the flu. Thank you, SE Cup, for carrying me today.
Let's do this again soon. Feel better.
I'm doing my best.

Speaker 2 Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow. I'm going to do it.
I'll be here with the newest member of the bulk. I'm very excited.
I think you guys are going to like him. So, we'll see you all then.

Speaker 2 Peace.

Speaker 13 40 ounce in my right hand, watching drunk history alone. It's a vibe here, working through a few things.
Feeling like I'm Jordan in the flu game, liquor to alleviate the lightness.

Speaker 13 Yeah, I got a whole lot of baggage. Grew up in a place with a whole lot of static.
It's been a couple years since I strolled out of traffic and made a lane all on my own. I've been living for my soul.

Speaker 13 By that, I mean my son. They hoping that I fold, but I have just begun.
I'm finna tell my story till there's nothing in my lungs. And my face turned blue and my fingers go numb.

Speaker 13 I've been getting over shit. I've been going through shit.
Life would be the Titanic if it was a cruise shit. But I ain't no diCaprio.
I ain't finna sadly go. I'm swimming to the shore.
Call a forest.

Speaker 13 Everybody getting carried home. Never been this happy though.
The fashion got swaggy, but my legs still assy, bro. I'm still the same fool.
I'm still the same dude.

Speaker 13 The bottle changed up, but the spirit ain't new.

Speaker 2 The Bullard Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 3 Master distiller Jimmy Russell knew Wild Turkey Bourbon got it right the first time. Mellowed an American oak with the darkest char.

Speaker 3 Our pre-prohibition style bourbons are aged longer and never watered down. So you know it's right too, for whatever you do with it.

Speaker 3 Wild Turkey 101 Bourbon makes an old-fashioned or bold fashion for bold nights out or at home. Wild Turkey Bourbon, aged longer, never watered down, to create one bold flavor.

Speaker 3 Copyright 2020 Black Coherent America, New York, New York, never compromised, drink responsibly.

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Speaker 5 Warning: this product contains nicotine.

Speaker 3 Nicotine is an addictive chemical.