Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives

Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
We've got a double header today, Senator John Fetterman up in segment two. But first, I'm delighted to be here with the former Domestic Policy Council Director in the Biden administration.
She's now back as CEO for Center for American Progress. It is the great Neera Tanden.
What's up, Neera? Well, we got a lot of problems.

That's what's up. Now back as CEO for Center for American Progress, it is the great Neera Tanden.

What's up, Neera?

Well, we got a lot of problems. That's what's up.
That's what's up. We have a lot of problems.
We're going to get into the problems. We're going to spend most of the time on the problems.
I first have two backward-looking things for people. Number one, for newbies, for new listeners who haven't heard this before, my full origin story.
I just want to remind people that Nira being denied a cabinet position for mean tweets was the beginning of my radicalization. And now we have Gropey McHairsplurry leading the Department of Defense, but yet people couldn't confirm Nira to the cabinet because, I don't know, she said a couple deservedly mean things about Lindsey Graham.
It was outrageous. And I just have to wonder how you controlled your rage watching these dopes be confirmed without any issue.
Well, if I had actually known that the cabinet nomination problem, that whole fiasco was actually contributing to your radicalization, I would have actually thought it was worth it, maybe. It was.
I was ready to go into battle. I was going to put on a sword and shield with your face on it.
I mean, you kind of did. So I really appreciate it.
My actual take on all of this when it actually happened was that it was kind of bullshit, right? So what was really happening at that time is a bunch of Republicans who had just voted against Trump by voting for impeachment were scared shitless of the Republican base. And so they used my nomination as a way to show that they were still Republicans and that the rationale, the rationalization was obviously ridiculous since each one of them just voted for some insane lunatic who's, like their mean tweets were like the nicest things about them, right? They're just wrong, scoundrels, corrupt, ridiculous people who don't care about policy.
In fact, really just want to use the government to hurt people. So, I mean, I think it just caused a charade, you know, but I knew it was a charade at the time.
Like, it was ridiculous that people who were defending Trump and all of his tweets for the last, the years, four years before that, somehow were able to read all of my tweets when they could never have read. Yeah, it Yeah, it was interesting.
They were on some special Twitter where they were only getting what you were saying and not what Donald Trump was saying. I know.
That's why now I'm like, hey, I'm tweeting. Maybe a Republican senator will see it.
Yeah, they had you favorited. And you've been sending some good ones.
All right, my other backwards looking thing, you're the first Biden administration official I've had on since January. And I'm just wondering how you're feeling.

That was a mistake for me.

I know.

Sorry.

Sorry.

But like, I don't know.

Like you're looking back now.

I just, I'm wondering how the feelings are.

I mean, you know, I mean, do we have seven hours?

I mean, like I need some therapy for this. I feel a range of emotions.
I feel, you know, we tried to do a lot of important things. I do worry that perhaps we didn't solve enough problems.
There were issues that we should have taken on or we took on too late. You know, I think we took on immigration too late.
And I think we should be self-critical about that. I don't think it's an excuse for the insanity we're seeing right now.
But I also think that we should, you know, we have to be clear-eyed about what went wrong, what went right. You know, the president did deliver on a lot of things.
And we have to understand why some of that resonated and some of that didn't. I mean, I'm really struggling on the economy, for example, and just, you know, you know me, I'm 100% candid.
You know, we had a message for working class people. That message was, we have a trillion dollars investments.
Most of those, most of those investments are translating into jobs for working class people. 75% of the jobs were for people who don't need a college degree, but that didn't resonate.
And why didn't it? I think this probably gets into the future of the Democratic Party, but I think we have to really think through why some of the things we did didn't work, didn't resonate. You know, obviously we had some messaging challenges.
Messengers challenges or messaging challenges? I will say messaging. You can say messenger.
That's up to you. I will say messaging.
What were your messaging challenges, do you think? Well, I think it was hard for us to break through. You know, I mean, this is just a huge thing.
Like in America, Ezica ezra klein has written talked about this like i do think politics today is about everything is about eyeballs yeah and being able to attract eyeballs like you know just to step back i think we think of politics as like ideology and biography but we look at politicians through the lens of those like traditional dynamics and i think those are those are dynamics. But the ability to attract attention and keep attention is another important facet of political leadership today.
And I just think President Biden was a, you know, he would have been in politics a long time. He's done a great, you know, I believe he's done great service to the country, was heroic in the legislation he passed, but we could not figure out how to break through the media cycle in the same way that, you know, obviously Trump does like, you know, every day before 8 a.m.
Well, that leads to my last burning question going backwards I just had to ask you, which was, I still don't really understand.

Was that why he went out for the first debate? I still don't understand why he went out for the first debate. I think that it actually is the great debunking of the idea that there was some conspiracy to hide his mental decline.
I'm like, well, if there was a conspiracy to hide his mental decline, why did they agree to the earliest debate in history? But I still don't really quite understand why you did. I'm just going to be like 100% honest.
I mean, I don't know the answer to these questions. Like, I wasn't in the political strategy meetings.
I was domestic policy advisor. I was doing my domestic policy work.
I just thought you might have heard some buzz. I don't know.
I mean, I think genuinely they thought, like what I was told is they thought that one of the reasons why the race was where it was was because people were not actually thinking Trump was going to be the nominee or they weren't really identifying that he could actually be president. So it was important to join the race.
Right. And like this is what I was told inside.
Like a reason to do this was to show, put them both on stage, have a debate. Then you think the cut.

Then you really think of trump as possibly president so they were definitely not thinking that it would go you know like i think they thought the debate would would go well so well i don't think mike donald's itching to come on the pod so i guess i have to learn about the answer in the books, but I'll take your word for that. I'm sure some books will come out.
That'll tell me the truth. I'm going to learn.
I'm going to learn a lot in these processes in the books too. All right.
Okay. Now we are where we are.
I guess I want to start first with the foreign policy, even though you're a domestic policy person, you're, you're banned by Russia. That's in your, that's in your bio.
I like that. I know.
I'm like, you know, I, I. I consider it a badge of honor.
Are you concerned about what that means for your domestic security now that we've decided to side with Russia? What do you make of what has happened in the last week? Obviously, it's been a long time coming, but it's become particularly acute since Friday. I think this is the most sort of disgusting display of American weakness in

my lifetime. And, you know, I think the thing that Trump is doing is he has like a lot of bluster

and he yells a lot of people. But when you just ignore the bluster, what he is actually doing

is breaking the transatlantic relationship so that we can kowtow to Russia, right? There's no demands of Russia. He just wants to normalize relations with Russia.
I mean, this is just a bonanza for Russia and they give up nothing. And I think this is like one of the challenges with the media is that they are

hyper focused on the optics of like the meeting with zelensky and whether he was wearing a suit or not but what was fundamentally who had the temper tantrum first and who had a temper tantrum first was it all i mean this is the whole challenge with a lot of the media which is obviously just theater criticism instead of

political analysis or even

substance, but the truth challenge with a lot of the media, which is obviously just theater criticism instead of

like political analysis or even substance. But the truth of it is that the Trump administration, the goal of the Trump administration is not to demonstrate the United States's supremacy over Russia and it's our general opponents, but actually to, you know, kind of be a subservient partner.
And I think that we should step back and just recognize that, again, for all his bluster, this is weakness, this is cowering, this is against America's interests, of course, but I think fundamentally that Donald Trump has met the bully that he cowers to, and it is Vladimir Putin. Yeah, we have some other news on this front since I taped the last pod.
The administration is planning to revoke temporary legal status for about a quarter million Ukrainians who fled the conflict, adding insult to injury. French President Macron has spoken about how they are now planning for europe to go at this alone in a prime time address to france to his nation that the nuclear umbrella of france would actually protect other european countries which means that you know essentially they do not believe the united states will defend other nato countries other european.
A rational decision, but also really horrifying.

I mean, just unbelievable.

Again, it's like the kind of thing that you imagined for a movie.

Like, really, it's the French president saying,

our nuclear umbrella will protect you from the Russians

because we don't believe that America will anymore.

Yeah, and I think it's also important to remember,

or actually for all of us to really try to focus on,

not just it's important that we have these alliances, but why these alliances matter, right? So why does it matter that we have this really strong relationship with Europe to people? And just as a reminder, we have intelligence sharing with many of our allies in Europe. Americans' lives have been saved because As we share intelligence.
They have shared intelligence with us that have disrupted terrorist attacks, that have protected American lives overseas. And I just want to say, when we get to a place when European countries do not want to share intelligence with us because they are worried that we could possibly share it with Russia.

That will mean Americans are less safe.

When defense contractors in Europe, their stock is tripling because Europeans are going to buy from defense contractors in Europe, I just want to remind senators from Alabama, Mississippi, that those defense contractors are going to be, you know, basically less profitable in the United States. Now, it's not like liberals love every defense contractor.
But I think someone should raise these issues with senators, Republican senators. You know, the breaking up of these alliances is also is, you know, I think we have to digest it and understand it will have consequences for American security, for Americans, the price of goods, trade, the American dollar.
There's a whole range of impacts from the, you know, assault on our allies. You know, I mean, the whole world is crazy when you're angrier at Canada and England and France than you are at Putin, who's a terrorist killer who invaded a country.
And yet I just think we have to make the consequences of those decisions clear. Among those consequences, you mentioned the economic.
Again, we're taping this in the morning, so you never know what happens. Maybe we get a bounce back in the afternoon, but the markets are down once again this morning.
They're down significantly over the course of the past week. There were some indications that there are going to be job losses coming based on know, based on report, consumer spending numbers are down.
I mean, like the economic, like impending potential catastrophe that has been unleashed in six weeks is like, I mean, I have TDS, but it's even kind of worse than I expected. Oh, yeah.
I mean, I definitely thought for all these people on Wall Street and elsewhere who were like, oh, it's going to be fine because he's going to be reined in by the market and he'll never want the stock markets to crash.

It's like nobody is safe.

If you think that he's not going to do what he wants in his second term because he's concerned about the market, which I think he described these gigantic crashes as a little bit of an adjustment.

I mean, that little bit of an adjustment or people losing their jobs, people having to pay a lot more. So I think this is a crucial issue about what, you know, a lot of people are talking about, which what does the Democratic Party need to do? And I think the most important thing an opposition party needs to do is to drive the connection between the policies and the impact on people's lives.
I think we could have a long debate about the American Rescue Plan. And I know there were critics of it.
It was trying to save the economy. But one of the challenges of it is that we passed the American Rescue Plan.
And again, I think it did really crucial work to save the American people. But we took an act early in the administration, and then we had inflation, and Republicans were able to make an argument about how ARP was actually driving inflation.
Now, again, the Fed did a lot more than the ARP, etc.

But here you have Trump's actual actions on tariffs driving prices up and also threatening a lot of chaos. And ultimately, you know, people will lose their jobs in a range of sectors because prices are too high.
And this is the number one job of an opposition party,

to draw the connection between what Trump is doing

and how it affects you as a person.

And I think that the challenge for everybody

is that he's doing so many things,

he's violating the Constitution, et cetera.

But I think a very simple frame

is what is the action he is taking today

that makes your life harder,

that makes a working class person's life harder,

They're not going to be able to do that. frame is what is the action he is taking today that makes your life harder, that makes a working class person's life harder, that makes any American's life harder? Because as you know, just to get into narrative, what the right has done over the last four years with Joe Biden was develop this whole archetype of, you know, there's this government, this giant Goliath that is using the Justice Department.
I mean, I was always confused because, you know, either Joe Biden was like a puppet or he was a socialist mastermind. But either way.
It was tough. Depended on the day.
But there was a nefarious big government effort to harm this person, you know, take away the rights of this person. Now, sometimes it was the Justice Department prosecuting a person who, you know, invaded the Capitol on January 6th.
But, you know, they had this kind of David versus Goliath narrative. And my view is, every day we have David versus Goliath.
Every day, Donald Trump is hurting the American people, individual American people, like veterans, who are really trying to help address veteran suicide, who he fires and then rehires. And even when it comes to Doge, I think we really have to be hyper-focused on the impact on the public, what it means for people.
And I'll just give you an example that just scares the shit out of me. So if you don't mind, last fall during that campaign, I was the domestic policy advisors doing domestic policy work.
And when the hurricane hit North Carolina, it took out this plant. It's called the Baxter plant.
That plant produced 60% of the IV bags in America.

So all of a sudden, we could have been facing a massive shortage of IV bags.

And, you know, just to say, IV bags are pretty important in the whole surgery thing, okay?

So I and others will start working kind of around the clock with people at FDA and this agency no one's ever heard of called ASPR at HHS.

And you have career professionals who are working around the clock to ensure that we're

bringing in the right kind of IV bags from around the world from safe suppliers so that

there's a little disruption, but you never heard

of anyone dying from the lack of an IV bag in the United States. Now, a couple of weeks ago, most of those people were terminated on a Saturday night.
The ASPR people. The ASPR people and some of the FDA people.
And we have drug shortages all the time. A year ago, we had drug shortages of pediatric cancer drugs.

So we have a drug shortage, and I genuinely don't know who is going to protect us from that, right? Who in the federal government is actually going to work on that problem? This is a whole issue with HHS. You know, they're playing with lives.
So I think that's the job of all of us. We're going to do a lot of this work at the Center for American Progress to really drive the stories of how a person who's terminated, what it means for your protection, your safety, your health, your economic well-being.
And, you know, I personally believe that when people, when you have the amalgamation of these harms, that that's the story we need to tell. You were working on all this stuff closely, right? I think the other misconception is that all these people are upper middle class nerds that live in D.C., right? And when you're having huge cuts at the VA, huge cuts at some of these other places, right? One of my Uber drivers was driving me.
I going to do a Tom Friedman, was driving me. And he was like, he used to do background checks.
You know, you have the people that do the background checks for the government are everywhere, right? Like, it's just like random jobs you don't think about, right? So like, these are hitting all of these, and obviously, it's going to hit Maryland, Virginia disproportionately, but it's hitting all of these other communities too. And I think that those are other people to elevate, I think.
Absolutely. And look, they're now going after, they're going to shut down a range of social security offices around the country.
Those social security offices are about how you get the benefits you're supposed to get, your earned benefits of social security. So I think the truth of this is that Trump's crazy, you know, his antics, his sort of everyday antics can't let us forget the real harm to people.
And again, you know, we have had some successes beating this guy. Things are different.

They are dramatically worse than his first term.

But I am really proud of the fact that the Center for American Progress was a real leader of the effort to defend the Affordable Care Act from Trump's assault, his effort to repeal it. And just to remind everyone, and I think this is a hugely important lesson for us as well, the Affordable Care Act, unfortunately, was not popular when it passed.
It was not popular from the day it passed until Donald Trump tried to get

rid of it. And when he tried to get rid of it, we as an opposition were able to communicate to the

country how many people will lose health care. 23 million people across the country would lose

health care. And it became much more popular and it actually cleavaged Republicans.
And, you know, everyone talks about John McCain, but the reason, you know, people forget 10, 11, 12 Republicans voted against that bill, even in the House. And that happened because it was massively unpopular, even amongst 50% of Republicans wanted to keep the ACA by the end of that debate.
And that is the job in front of us. It is to show the consequences.
It is to demonstrate the real harms. And it is to say, you know, none of you have like magic boots around here.
You have to deal with political constraints just like the rest of us. Donald Trump is not some magician.
He cannot just make everything change. Republican House members, Republican senators are going to face voters.
And it is up to us to show those voters the consequences of their actions. It is not hard.
Do you have any tactical thoughts? I mean, this is, you know, you're back now. You're back in politics role, not in policy role.
I'm here at a think tank. We do both.
You do both. You're right.
You're right. Okay.
I'm sorry. But let's be real.
You're the head of the think tank. There are thinkers at the tank that are doing the policy stuff.
You got to do the politics. You've mentioned a couple of times.
We're talking specifically about, it's a broad group, but it's like one group. It's mostly non-college voters of all races, more men than women, but some women, people that don't consume the Bulwark or New York Times or CNN for that matter.
I know. It's so sad.
I know. It is sad.
I mean, I guess probably have a better chance of consuming us than CNN or the New York Times, but I don't think they consume any of us mostly. I'm not saying this to make you seem cool or anything.
Cause I definitely know you're not cool. But my son who's like online all the time, I was like, I'm going to do this podcast.
And he was like, Oh, Oh, he's cool. You know, he's 19.
He's like, what's up teenage Tandon. I always, I tell my husband's always like, you have two core fan bases, nerdy, 19 to year old boys and like 60 year old plus women.
Those are the people that stopped me the most. I tell him you described him as a nerd.
He'll be like, I don't want to be associated with you ever again. Okay, sorry.
I don't know him. I don't know.
Maybe he's just a very cool kid that also likes the bulwark. Also possible.
This is what's cool about you. He's actually not a nerd.
He doesn't like, you know, he doesn't like watch political podcasts.

He actually, you know, whatever.

So this is what actually leans into what I think, which is like our tactics,

which is we have to figure out how we get these stories of harms to people,

everyday Americans, working class Americans.

You know, people are like, who's our best democratic leader to fight channel triumph?

Thank you. of harms to people, everyday Americans, working class Americans, you know, people are like, who's our best democratic leader to fight Channel Trump? And, you know, I, you know, I understand people are really scared and want leaders and are anxious and gnashing their teeth all the time.
But I actually think our best voices to be clear about what Trump is doing is not another politician, but actually an everyday American who's victimized by what Trump is doing, who is scared about what Trump is doing, who's harmed by what Trump is doing. And that can be, you know, a working class person.
It can be people who look like your friends and neighbors. They are the best messengers.
And those are the messengers we need to work on getting out through all our channels and try to get into channels where people aren't watching news every day.

That's a lot of the work that Center for American Progress Action Fund, headed by Naveen Nayak, will be doing a lot of that work to ensure that we are spreading the word of how people are impacted by Trump, everyday Americans, across all of social media platforms we can. But really, you know, the most important thing, people are always like, what can we do? I've called my member of Congress five times.
I actually think what the right did over the last decade is they made their activist kind of news amplifiers. They'll take an article, they'll send it to all their friends and neighbors.
And as you know, when someone sends you an article, you tend to believe it more because you trust that person. So we're really trying to engage in telling all your friends and family, your neighbors, your cousins and those in North Carolina, you know, spread information.
That's like spread information, not on how outrageous Trump is and what a jerk he is and what a bad guy is, but like actually what he's doing to the bad shit that's happening. Yes.
To people, you know, because I do think people are like, Oh yeah, he was bad and we still elected him. Yeah.
Share my rants if you want, but that's not really going to do you any good. Yeah.
Share what is happening to people. I totally agree.
To an actual person. And tell a story.
There's this veteran who worked in, there's a story about a veteran who was in Iraq and he's working, he worked at the VA. He's basically helping patients.
He's worried about losing his job. And, you know, I mean, do we really think that that's the person that like we really want victimized today? You know, is that the person that's to blame for our $32 trillion debt? Like, I don't, I don't think so.
I hear you all that, but here's my, here's, here's my one pushback with Dem politicians. Nira is pissed.
You know how I know Nira is pissed? Because I follow you on social media, and I can see your rage, and you got denied a cabinet spot because of your rage. And it was righteous fucking rage.
And I will go to battle for you. And the number of people that are Democratic politicians that have Nira-level rage, I feel like I can count on one hand, maybe two hands.
Why? Well, we're going to have one of them, J.B. Pritzker, a cap in a few weeks.
We're very excited to have him here because I think he is channeling people's anger and anger and honesty about what's happening. Trump is lying to you.
He is hurting people. He's very clear in his language.
I guess while we're on rage, I have two other personal questions for you. I want you to rank who you're the most angry at.
I want you to like, when your blood really starts to boil, like when you think about a person or a group of people, who is making your blood boil the most? I'd like to hear a top three, but I'll take one if you only have one. I think like really every Republican who lectured a Democrat about norms and proper behavior.
You know, I might be a little bit focused on that. Roger Wicker, all the random Republicans.
All these people who were like, you know, Biden didn't call us about something. And that's like socialism.
And then they're just on a dime willing to basically bend the knee. But when you talk about that group of Republicans, who are you envisioning in your mind's eye? Okay, but now you're basically saying, will you please say Susan Collins so that I can reaffirm this one? It's different for all of us.
It's Dave McCormick for me. Everybody has their own triggering person.
Dude, though, Tom Tillis is coming up close behind. Okay, that's a good top three.
Let's go with Tom Tillis because, you know, he has a Senate race, and right now he's acting like there's no general election. He only has to worry about a primary, which means he's actually thinking every Democrat in North Carolina is a sucker.
And my view of that is you should prove him wrong by actually trying to engage your friends and neighbors and telling them there is actually a Senate race, and he actually is accountable to the entire state, not just the Republican base. The Genocide Joe people in your top three? Or do they not? Do they fall a little over? I mean, they're not in my top three because, you know, I honestly believe many people were anxious about the war.
I just wish they would be a little bit more vocal. I mean, I do think people should be protesting.
Trump. Trump.
Sometimes. That'd be an interesting idea.
Maybe protest Trump and he's trying to purchase Gaza. Okay.
I joked earlier about whether you were worried about your legal status here since you've been banned by Russia, but like seriously, now you're the head of a, you're a target. And a lot of people out there are worried about, you know, Ed Martin and Pam Bondi and the lawless kind of actions that we're seeing.
How worried are you about this administration coming after political folks? I am very worried about this administration coming after political folks, but I really want to separate this out because I do think their fear and intimidation is a tactic to silence people. So, and I do think there are democratic leaders who say, oh, maybe we shouldn't protest because that'll be an excuse for them to use martial law.
And we cannot have pre-cowering, pre-obeyance. So, you know, I'm a little worried that the more effective we are, the more they'll come after us.
But I think, you know, you cannot be scared. If you let them get into your head that they will scare you, you will, you know, you'll come back a little bit from your criticism.
You'll not protest instead of protest. You'll take actions.
And, like, this is exactly how democracies fail. So my view, I'm going to fight like hell, I'm going to act like this is still a democracy, and I can fight like hell.
And if they come at, you know, I'm not going to be insane. But if they come after me, then, you know, I'm going to expect that there are other fighters in this army that we're in.
And they will use that as an argument for the rest of the country that we've gone off the deep end. I knew that would be your answer.
That's why I asked that. All right.
I've got Fetterman up next. Do you have any questions for him? Center for American Progress.
Have any concerns, any things you'd like for me to raise? I feel like you'll channel many of my questions. Okay.
Thank you for the trust and thank

you to the fucking awesome

son that you've raised

who is like obviously

at keg parties and like

hanging out and dating people

and very popular. That was worth the

embarrassment of being called the nerd.

I'm sure you're very popular,

very smart, very engaged

son. Congrats on that.
Nira, I appreciate you. Let's do this, I don't know, you know, every six weeks or so.
Let's do a check-, very smart, very engaged son. Congrats on that.

Neera, I appreciate you.

Let's do this, I don't know, every six weeks or so.

Let's do a check-in.

Yeah, it's fun.

All right.

Great to see you.

I appreciate it very much.

Up next, John Fetterman.

all right All right, we are back with the senior Democratic senator from Pennsylvania. It's John Fetterman.
I've done a wardrobe change, you know, in your spirit. I am like your number one apologist about wearing the hoodie on the floor.
No, there's no need to wear a suit for these people. right so you just keep doing you the truth story behind the hoodie thing it's like i never went to anybody or schumer anyone to ask for that you know i i read about that i'm like i'm like i never asked for those kinds of things i was never gonna like just give speeches you know hoodie there uh so but but but for me i'm a comfort guy and and i'm also i'm a lazy man.
And I don't have to iron it. It's just easy to wash it and I'm ready to go.
And plus, it's hard to find suits too. Well, I appreciate it.
I wanted to have you on. You really spoke out this week on defense of trans athletes.
And I wanted to start there and then we'll get into some Trump stuff. But you wrote this, the small handful of trans athletes in Pennsylvania are in a political maelstrom.
They deserve an ally and I am one. Empty show votes or cruelty on social media aren't part of a thoughtful, dignified solution.
What made you jump out so aggressively on that? And what do you think a more thoughtful solution would be? Because for me, it's been born from my commitment to never to pick on anybody. I mean, when I was very young, I got bullied and picked on.
And that really kind of shaped a lot of my experience. And I'm not part of those communities, LGBTQ kinds of things.
But now, that really started when I was a small town mayor, when gay marriage was illegal, literally it was illegal. And then, then there was an opportunity.
There was someone starting to sign those things. And I said, a hundred percent, I got on TV.
I'm like, I'll sign them, come with me. And that was illegal.
And then the governor at the time threatened to have me arrested. And then I said, well, Hey, you know, you know where I live, bring it, bring it.
And I signed for those things. And that was the first, I was at the time, the only official in Pennsylvania willing to sign those.
And they all became legal. And that was back in 2013.
And so it's the same kind of thing. It's like marriage equality.
I really support that. And if I was convicted of that crime, because technically it was a crime, I'm like, well, hey, then that might be the end of my political career.
But, you know, I will never degrade somebody based on who they love. And now for this and I'm not dumb either.
I know the polling. And now a lot of people are saying it's absurd, it's absurd kinds of thing.
And now, so for me, that that's when I felt like it's a time to really say, look, now for me, it's about I'm not going to bully, or I'm not going to degrade those. And now, you know, we're a 13 million people in our state.
And that's a small, small number of people that are involved on that. And I have a 13-year-old daughter, and she plays basketball, and I'm not afraid that she's going to get mowed down.
But for me, it turns into an issue that is more appropriate to be handled on at a very hyper-local level and not dropping them into a meat grinder and national thines and weaponizing that. And I know I'm not dumb.
I know that there'll be commercial saying, you know, Fetterman's for they, them and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, hey, you know, like bring it in.
I'm not I'm not afraid to stand from my side on that, because for these kids, for me, how difficult that it is. And now in this kinds kinds of a world nuance goes to die and having a more meaningful conversation on that it's difficult right now so for me you know that i made i made that choice and i could have tried to kept my head down like a lot of my other colleagues decided to do that but but for me even though i know it's uh politically unpopular i think that's the kind of time to do that.
And I do believe that a person's character is defined by the things that they're willing to do, even if that moves against their political interests. Well, I appreciate that.
Maybe I should have got married in Braddock because it was like not till five years later that I got my gay marriage. You know, it is just one more thing on the nuance of this.
It's just worth saying. Martina Navratilova, not a liberal.
I saw her tweeting at you on, saying that I got my gay marriage. You know, it is just one more thing on the nuance of this.
It's just worth saying. I mean, Martina Navratilova, not a liberal.
I saw her tweeting at you on, you know, saying that, I don't know, it's different for teen girls. And Gavin Newsom, big progressive, said that he is breaking with Democrats on youth sports.
So I don't know. You know, he's, in my opinion, he's going to get the worst of both worlds of that.
I mean, he's going to be seen as just flip-flopping, and he's going to anger his progressive base. And we all know why he's doing those kinds of things.
And then on the other side, we're going to know why he's making those kind of changes. So for me, it's like he's going to own the worst of both of those worlds for that.
To me, one is the trans military thing that's the one that like you i see the nuance of the youth sports issue i think i said i did a video i'm like look i mean it was not there was a time when it wasn't controversial desegregating the military was incredibly controversial at the time i'm not going to serve i'm'm not going to fight. I'm not going to bunk with black soldiers.

Now, of course, that needed to change.

And then there was, I'm old enough to remember when don't tell, don't ask thing.

And now it's like regardless of who you love, I mean, you know, that doesn't make you more lethal or more suitable to be a soldier based on who you love.

That was really front and center with the Hegseth nomination. Well, what about women in combat based on their gender? And when you have gender neutral kinds of things, that, and then it shouldn't matter based on your gender.
And so regardless on how you identify, that doesn't make you any more or less lethal.

And as long as you're able to meet those kinds of a standard, for me, it's about the dignity of the soldier. And I'm not going to degrade that based on their race, obviously, on their gender, on who they love and not how they identify.
And that's why I did that video knowing that it's not politically popular. So that's why I decided to lean on that, because I think it's part of that narrative, that arc of whether what was really controversial and unthinkable based on race.
And now we're along that arc. I think the military one might become popular framed the right way.
The idea that a draft dodging guy wearing makeup is going to ban people who volunteered to serve based on you know their gender identity it's fucking it's sick it's gross to me it was considered controversial you know it's like based on who you who you love like i i don't understand that and and i'm like for me like for for i say to my conservative friends, it's like it's about freedom, freedom. It's one of those are the kinds of fundamental kinds of things.
You know, I love the freedom to love who you love. And now if you have that kind of internal conflict about your gender, you know, I didn't experience those kinds of things.
But I know people that have and they are coming coming from a very sincere place, and they are trying to live their truths. And I don't think that they don't deserve to be ridiculed or turned into pariahs.
And definitely, you know, teenagers especially, I'm not going to be part of dropping them into that meat grinder. What'd you make of the Zelensky meeting on Friday and the way that the president's been treating our ally Ukraine, cutting off intelligence, and now I guess a report this morning potentially getting rid of legal status for Ukrainian people that stuck asylum? I've been unapologied pro-Ukraine.
You know, I'm like one of the best things I've ever done as a senator. I voted for the aid for Israel, for Ukraine and Taiwan.
I mean, like for me, that's a global struggle against democracy. And obviously Russia was the aggressor.
Well, I'm old enough. I've said this before.
I'm like, when I grew up, I'm like Red Dawn. I'm like, you're cheering for the Wolverines, the Wolverines.
And Russia was the evil empire. And it is, it is.
If you disagree with Putin, two days later, they find you because you fell out of a window. So I absolutely didn't agree with what happened in the White House, but I didn't jump on and started yelling.
But two things can be true at the same time. I certainly didn't appreciate what happened in the White House, but it's also also undeniable that Ukraine doesn't have, you know, he doesn't have all the cards.
I mean, what's true now, too, the president is the commander of chief, and he has the ability to shape and really alter the contour of that. And if we're moving towards peace, you know, I don't want to inflame that situation.
I mean, we're not, come on, we're not moving towards peace. What evidence is there that Putin wants peace? And Trump has not asked Putin for anything.
What has Trump asked Putin for as part of peace? Again, Putin is a killer. And of course, Russia is our enemy, always.
And that hasn't gone to change. My hope is, is that it is moving towards because I do not believe that the war in Ukraine is sustainable.
And I have met amputees. I have met them.
I have met them. And they're getting all back to the front line.
And now if you're sending those wounded men there, it's a terrible situation. And if there's a path for peace, I don't agree those kinds of terms necessarily and i fully support seizing there's about 218 billion of seized russian assets and i'm absolutely like they need to seize that and those are the kind of assets that should rebuild it we we should rebuild that and i don't think we should extract those kinds of funds uh you know and repaid uh repaid our nation.
I thought it was always a bargain to break and humiliate the Russia military and demonstrated their lack of capabilities. Talking about not jumping online and being alarmed, you wrote after Trump's, whatever that was, not State of the Union speech, the address to Congress, that your colleagues participated in a sad cavalcade of self-owns and unhinged petulance, said we are becoming the metaphorical car alarms that nobody pays attention to.
I don't know, though. Aren't we in car alarm territory? Isn't it time for alarm? What I'm saying, though, it's like're you know there are there are things that are concerned but without realizing the circumstances and part of the

reasons why we ended up in this place i mean i'm a big believer in american democracy and right now

when we're 53 and 47 in my in the senate here and and they they own the government right now and of

course they're going to lose the house i hope they're going to lose the house so they're going

to do a lot of these things i don't agree with a lot of those things. You know, do you think what they did during the so-too, if you thought that was smart messaging, if you landed, I mean, you know, I don't agree with that.
No, I didn't think it was smart. I agreed with you on that.
But I guess I'd just say this. Trump, if I look at your phrase, unhinged petulance.
I can't think of a phrase that better describes Donald Trump than unhinged petulance. All he did was call Joe Biden, Dementia Joe.
He yelled and he screamed and he posted and he bleeded. He did embarrassing things.
And in the end, he convinced a lot of people. I don't know.
Isn't isn't politics part of politics telling people about all the terrible things that you're the opposing party is doing? I didn't really think that what happened at the State of the Union was particularly good. But I think that Democrats should be louder, not quieter.
What do you think about that? What I'm saying, though, is what I witnessed wasn't helpful and that wasn't moving the ball for Democrats.

I don't I don't believe that. And if you can't just all stand and cheer for a 13-year-old boy that got, I mean, I have a 13-year-old myself, you know, got over cancer.
I mean, that's the wrong message. I agree.
Can't you do both? I remember when Joe Wilson, Joe Wilson, that jerk-off yelled, you lie, you lie, you know, and everyone recoiled and like that was appalled by that. And it's like, yeah, so, so now we became the Joe Wilson of 2025.
And that was a loser in 2009. And I don't think that's a winner or it's appropriate anymore now in 2025.
Yeah, I agree when it comes to the behavior in the room. I'm talking a little broader than that.
I guess my point is, can't you stand and cheer for the 13 year old with with the brain cancer? And then also the next day go out and say, Donald Trump and Elon Musk are acting illegally, they're firing vets at the VA. Donald Trump is abandoning.
I don't agree with all those things. Yeah, I don't understand what their upside is.
You know, I don't know what they get out a lot lot of that chaos but now they seem to be wanting to triple down on some of that kinds of thing but but i do believe you know core is that you know if you become the party of chaos you lose and the second americans decide it's like you know you know people aren't going to vote for chaos and if you can can you create more and more and more kinds of chaos again of course there is going to be a backlash so that's where we're at i defined your strategy the other day to somebody and you can tell me if this is wrong and maybe this isn't a strategy maybe you're just being you as you're basically voting with the democrats on most everything a couple things no but like most everything you're voting with the democrats but you're spending a lot of time talking about how they're annoying. No, them the the border the border you know like i i really pushed and got the god lakin you know i was like the co-sponsor for lakin that's true and then israel israel absolutely you know like i you know so not not not most people were saying that you were going to vote for the cabinet appointees and like you know again on certain issues on immigration on israel there have been policy differences from some in your party but a lot of the times you've been you you're still i mean you endorse bernie like you're still a pretty liberal person on most issues right and you're just it's just your rhetoric it was like eight or nine years ago i mean and and that was about very basic kinds of things and and like i've described.
It's like, you know, the label left me, you know, like it wasn't that. So eight years ago, the world, you know, the world was much different.
People thought that it was unthinkable that Donald Trump could win. And he did.
Now, I would like to remind everybody, Trump, you know, won two out of the three last cycles, and he nearly could have won the 2020. So why? And I'm trying to figure out a way forward.
Hey, I wish I had a deep blue state or a district, and I can yell and get on and be like, ah, but that's easy. And then they can monetize that, and they can jump on an email and raise money for their campaign for that thing.
But for me, I'm trying to find a way forward for a party and I'm not going to be a mansion. I'm not going to be, you know, I'm not going to go independent or doing all those kinds of things.
So, but you know, when you represent one of the most purple land in the country and I don't believe, I stopped believing in on like cheap heat online and just yelling just because I don't agree with it on the time. If you yell at everything, then everything just becomes absurd.
That's why, you know, does anybody call the police when they see or hear a car alarm going off? No, you know, no, people ignore that. So if everything, you know, and the, and the world is on fire and that actually doesn't happen, people stop listening or just assume that that's really what you do.
So I want to be very selective. And now like a constitutional crisis, the second the president defies the Supreme Court or any of that, that defines, that's literally the definition of a constitutional crisis.
And I'd be the first person to just be like, no, we have a, you know, so I think if you pick your own fights, so I like to believe that, you know, your words will matter more if it's not always spending time yelling and saying that the world's going to end. You said you think the left or the progressives or whatever left you.
Like, what do you think changed? Right. I mean, because look, it's funny.
In 2015, you were endorsing Bernie in 2016.

I was for Jeb, you know, so like here we are.

So something's changed and people kind of wonder whether you've changed.

But I guess you're saying that you don't think you've changed.

You think that the progressives has changed or have you changed?

Well, I think it's both.

I mean, for me, if anything, what happened about Israel?

What happened on 10th?

A lot certainly changed. I was shocked at the way that members of my party, the way they behaved for that.
And also the border. I mean, you know, if you've been on my social media, I dropped a chart.
And it's like, you know, what's real chaos? What's real chaos? You know, 250,000, 300,000 people showing up at our border every month. That's the size of Pittsburgh.
And now like that's real chaos. That's chaos.
And the Democrats have no had no answer to say, well, oh, it's all going to work out. It's all just fine.
You know, like everything's fine. There's nothing wrong there.
So that really is that's that's true chaos. And I, as my party tried to I tried to warn that we're going to we're going to be punished by this and trying to pretend that we're wrong.
And I always knew we were going to get rolled on that bipartisan deal. Do you think Trump's going to give and walk that and give that away? I always say, like, I'm never going to pick a fine on fried chicken with Colonel Sanders.
He owns the border and does. And that's definitely too valuable for him to hand that away.
So it's obvious that we are going to get rolled. So going forward, one thing I want to ask you is I was listening to some focus groups yesterday and there were some guys that I don't know, kind of sounded like you.
They're these kind of voters that they really don't like Big Pharma.

You know, they like Bernie, but they also really appealed to RFK.

RFK appeals to them because they, you know, they think that Big Pharma,

these big corporations are out to get them.

These used to be Democratic voters.

They're examples of these young men that now have kind of lost trust in institutions

that are now becoming MAGA voters. And I'm wondering how you think Democrats could get them back.
I'm not sure. I've witnessed that starting back in 2015-16.
So what would be your strategy to vote for him to vote for you? Forget the Democratic Party. What kind of messages do you think you're going to focus on that you think might resonate with them? I'm not like a you should, you should, you should guy.
It's my own examples and the kinds of things that I happen to believe. And that's why I'm willing to talk to everybody.
And that's not why I think that everything that comes from a Republican is bad or evil or it's terrible. And I try to find things that we can agree.
And there's some things that we're not going to agree on on all of those things. But I promise you, a lot of the messaging that's being emerging in every sense after the inauguration, I don't think that's going to be the kinds of messaging that's going to change our party in the ways that can avoid that we end up in a way not different than we were back in 2024.
What about the Bernie messaging since the election?

Really just focusing on billionaires, focusing on these big corporations, focusing on big pharma and how Democrats need to be the party of reform and going after the wealth gap. What do you think about that? Does that appeal to you at all? I think they've been there.
Very, very bizarre. We were forced to spend till five in the morning to keep having all these these these empty show votes, you know, trying to tie the Republicans to billionaires.
I'm like, hey, they campaign with a billionaire, though. You know, they I'm like, we love them.
They announce it. You know, they get in front of now.
And now they just went at this at the State of the Union speech.

You know, hey, I love that billionaire. That's my partner.
Having all of these silly votes till five in the morning, you know, that never went anywhere. It all just vanishes and never goes anywhere.
I don't agree with a lot of this messaging. It's not helpful.
I'm just going to continue to try to find a way forward. But I'm not going to spend time yelling online and dropping silly videos or just...
You had lunch with Trump. And I don't know, he's easy to flatter, right? And afterwards, he's like, that guy is better than I thought or whatever.
So I don't know. He's probably more likely to answer your call than mine, saying that he doesn't like traitors.
But I'm wondering, if you were to call him back up, is there a specific thing they've been doing these first two months that you are most upset about that you would like them to change course on, not politically, but like an actual substantive policy that you could try to persuade them on? What would it be? I mean, there'd be a lot of, there's a lot of things but i don't i don't flatter myself to think that you know like as a democrat uh senator is going to carry how much weight on that but i don't understand what they're getting out of the chaos i i'd like i'd like to say like if the republicans stop being dicks they're never gonna they're gonna lose an election and if democrats don't stop getting kind of crazy or goofy or fry, then they're never going to lose another election. It's like there's a lot of overreaction.
So I really don't understand a lot of the chaos. And then when they say things that are absolutely not true, you just diminish your own credibility.
So I think if they make some of those small changes, but I don't agree with many of the things that happen. But I do happen to agree that we do need to secure our border.
And I do think we need to really stand firmly behind Israel. I do.
I agree with a lot of those things. So what did you talk to him about when you guys had lunch? What did you guys talk about? We talked to a lot of different things.
Like his play of Lester. I talked to everybody as long as people are playing it straight.
And that's what it was. It was a conversation.
conversation? I mean, like the border or like his playlist i i talked to everybody as long as people are playing it straight and and that's that's what it was it was a it was a conversation i mean like the border or like his hair or money crypto i mean who knows and again i mean it's like that's one of the you know i i never divulge what happens in private conversations i mean got it you know they're always we we always have to have honor amongst the thieves otherwise things would break down. I met with all of the secretary nominees, and we all had conversations.
And I never just ran to the press or said things or did that kind of thing. It's like I play things straight.
I will want people to play me straight. And as long as people do the same thing, I'm going to have a dialogue with virtually anyone.
Well, I appreciate you coming on the podcast. And obviously, I don't think that your wish that the chaos will tamp down is going to happen.
So as more stuff happens, we'll hope to be talking to you again soon. Very good.
Okay, thank you. All right.
Well, that was John Fetterman. We'll see what you guys think about that one in the comments.
Much appreciated to him for coming on and for speaking his mind,

particularly on trans issues.

And thanks to my friend Neera Tanden.

Hopefully we'll be having her back again soon.

And rest easy to one of the greats, Roy Ayers.

He wrote maybe the vibiest song of all time.

Everybody loves the sunshine.

We're not in a sunshine place right now.

So I'm going to take you out today with something else. Y'all can go check out the Roy Ayers discography.
And come back here tomorrow. We're going to have one of your favorites on a weekend edition of the Borg podcast.
We'll see you all then. Peace.
Now what went down, I don't believe in. I just know I can't concede for searching

When love is gone and one believes that love will cause like brand new leaves for searching

And in the day that I will say that my soul lives in the truthful way I'm searching.

I said butterfly up in the sky, you've got a story to say, I'll take a while I'm searching.