Stephanie Ruhle: Unlimited Money and No Rules

Speaker 2 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 7 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny, infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 3 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 9 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 2 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 1 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 4 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close. Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

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Speaker 13 Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
It is Wednesday. We're in the third day of Donald Trump's second presidency.

Speaker 13 There's only like 1,300 or 1,400 or so days to go, so no big deal. I'm excited to be here.
First time we get to turn the tables. Stephanie Ruhl, host of the 11th hour with Stephanie Ruhl on MSNBC.

Speaker 13 She's a senior business correspondent with NBC News. She was formerly an anchor for Bloomberg and a managing director at Deutsche Bank.
What's going on, Steph?

Speaker 12 Hey, just here covering the administration.

Speaker 13 Are you excited about this? Do you have four years of 11 p.m. commentary on Donald Trump's antics in you mentally?

Speaker 12 Yes. And for everybody who's like, oh, I can't do this, check yourself.
Me.

Speaker 12 Every day, you and I have the opportunity, whether it's on a podcast, whether it's on a television show, to talk to the American people and not be against him or for him, but just cover this, right?

Speaker 12 We are living in the age of misinformation and we can sit here and bitch and moan about how we're flooded with lies, which we are, or we could realize we have these platforms. Let's do our part.

Speaker 13 Let's cover them. Is this cope? Do you really feel this way?

Speaker 12 Did you say cope or cope?

Speaker 13 Yeah, are you coping? Is this you convincing yourself about this because you have to go into the salt mines every day and talk about this? Or is this honest? Or is this true?

Speaker 12 Oh my God, it's completely true. Like, listen, is it tiring? Yeah, but it's tiring to do do everything.
You and I are both parents.

Speaker 12 Would it be tiring for me to be lining up at school drop off and organizing a big sale?

Speaker 13 Hell yeah. Okay.

Speaker 12 We are living in an extraordinary time where I do think our democracy is at risk. And every day we have a chance to tell the truth and cover this.

Speaker 12 And while there's huge pressure not to, call our leaders out, you know, speak truth to power. Let's do it.
Like, yeah, is it like, oh my God, wouldn't I love to be like sitting on a beach in Bermuda?

Speaker 12 Sure, wouldn't everybody like to do that? But as far as jobs go, you and I have pretty great ones.

Speaker 13 You're making me feel guilty.

Speaker 12 And if you don't want to do it and I don't want to do it, a whole lot of other people will take these jobs.

Speaker 13 Yeah. You're bucking me up right now.
I was in the green room. I was talking about how I've been weeknight drinking.
You're like, I'm not drinking. You know, I'm keeping it sober.
I'm excited.

Speaker 13 This is fun. I'm like, and I'm beaten down.
Like, I need you. I need you to like be my wake-up call in the morning.
Be like, you got this, Tim.

Speaker 12 Or guess what? Weeknight drink and realize you're weeknight drinking in an awesome town like New Orleans or New York City. These are blessed lives.
Okay, this is my other point.

Speaker 12 Yes, these are dark times, but you know what? Darkness does not beat darkness. Love does.
So just realize this moment we're in, be excited about it, and go for it.

Speaker 13 God, I needed this. I didn't even know.
I was just trying to make some small talk at the top of the podcast, but that was useful. All right.

Speaker 13 I mean, just because besides the fact that I just like hanging out with you,

Speaker 13 I think it was on your Friday night 11th hour show where you you have kind of the little happy hour vibe going.

Speaker 12 The nightcap.

Speaker 13 Yeah. And

Speaker 13 you were ranting about how you have more masculine energy than Mark Zuckerberg and talking about how all these like CEOs put in their own DEI programs are now mad at themselves and their own employees.

Speaker 13 And they're all, I don't think you said the P-word, but you know, we can say it now in Donald Trump 2.0, and you seem to maybe be implying it deep down.

Speaker 13 And I was like, I need to talk about this stuff with Steph.

Speaker 12 First of all, Mark Zuckerberg is obviously the wrong person the wrong messenger when it comes to masculine energy right like again i'm not joking like i have more than he does but beneath what zuckerberg is saying like i he's not just the wrong messenger he's using the wrong word and i bring it up because

Speaker 12 there is truth and i'm not saying i support it or i don't support it there is truth behind what he's saying in terms of a lot of business leaders.

Speaker 12 It's not that they're saying they want masculine energy, they're saying, and again, this is not an endorsement, this is who I cover. Sure, they want to be the boss again.

Speaker 12 They do not like that over the last six years, tons of companies have had their employees unionize or form different kinds of employee groups, right?

Speaker 12 They're not happy that they can't get their employees back to work.

Speaker 12 And while they understand that employees are saying, well, I don't want to, my lifestyle has changed, CEOs are saying, come back to work.

Speaker 12 You may have been able to complete the tasks of your job during COVID, but our productivity is down.

Speaker 12 And they're not saying I'm against DEI, but many of them feel like DEI became this thing that was involved in every single conversation they had.

Speaker 12 And again, I'm not advocating for it, but you've heard it over and over from business leaders saying for tons of job openings, you know, they were under a huge amount of pressure for it to be a diversity candidate.

Speaker 12 I mean, at our own company, right? At NBC, there was a period of time in the last five years when Cesar Conde took over and he put an initiative in. He put an initiative about diversity hires.

Speaker 12 Lots of people were excited about it and lots of people under the hood weren't. And so part of what we're hearing from Zuckerberg, right?

Speaker 12 Zuckerberg's taking it really far and Mark Andreessen is taking it really far. But lots of businesses would say, man, in the last five years, the pressure we were under.

Speaker 12 to stand up and speak out and give money or take action on social justice stuff, we don't want to do it anymore. We want to focus on our customers, our shareholders, and our employees.

Speaker 12 And while we want to be sure our mission aligns with our employees, it doesn't need to be like where you work doesn't have to align with all of your politics.

Speaker 12 And so, again, I'm certainly not defending Zuckerberg or corporate America.

Speaker 13 You're teasing him, really.

Speaker 12 Yes, but there is a lot of space. There are a lot of business leaders that are saying, I'm done ruling by committee.
I'm the boss. I'm going to get to decide.
Okay.

Speaker 12 But yes, Zuckerberg being the face, the voice of this, is just so bananas now that he's a Dave Portenoy lookalike. I mean, I heard him on that podcast referring to food as fuel.

Speaker 12 And this is my last Zuckerberg point. For everyone going, when did he change? What happened? He didn't change.
Go watch the social network. When Facebook, Facebook wasn't the first company he started.

Speaker 12 He had another website. And you remember what they did? They rated hot girls.
That super nerd at Harvard was holed up in his room, uninvited to even the dorm mixer.

Speaker 12 And he created a website to rate how hot girls were. Like, how did he rate it? Like, in terms of the level of girls that will reject me.

Speaker 12 So my point is just, he didn't suddenly make an alpha male change. He's been this bro all along.
He's finally just trying to manifest it.

Speaker 13 We haven't seen Priscilla.

Speaker 13 Yes, we did. Did she appear?

Speaker 12 Oh, this is about, so we didn't see her all last week, and I kept thinking about it. Like, this is this super smart, accomplished woman, like pretty extraordinary philanthropist.
We haven't seen her.

Speaker 12 She was at the inauguration, right? So that was kind of like the chef's kiss, right? So on one side, he's giving Lauren Sanchez the once-over looking down her you-know-whos.

Speaker 12 And on the other side is his wife in a tweed jacket buttoned up to her nose with giant pearls on. And I'm like, oh, my mushkers.
Because she was probably like, bro, you got to tighten this up.

Speaker 12 I do not want to sit next to you while you're on your, you know i am tarzan phase and then you get caught on video you know doing a creeper to lauren sanchez i agree with everything you're saying as analysis that this is how ceos feel and you talk to more ceos than i do even trickle down to the types of people that i talk to that work for ceos

Speaker 13 i'm just saying this is

Speaker 13 i know you're not i agree with the analysis here's my thing though when you're having these conversations what i what i wonder you mentioned you're like they felt like they had so much pressure to do all these initiatives and that this is now an attempt that there can be some backlash against this.

Speaker 13 And I saw a post by my man, Tyler Eston Harper. He wrote this.

Speaker 13 None of the corporate overlords shrieking about liberation from wokeness want to own the fact that nobody put a gun to their head and said they needed to do insane progressive HR programming or pay Ibram X.

Speaker 13 Kendi $532 a minute for Zoom calls. They could have simply done nothing or they could have simply just done their little Citibank's gay pride float.
Now, this isn't Tyler anymore.

Speaker 13 This is me editorializing, and not done all the other stuff. They did it.
No, they were under a lot of pressure. From who? Not Joe Biden.

Speaker 13 Wasn't like the Biden administration was breathing down their neck saying, you got to do this ESG.

Speaker 12 Okay, I love you for saying this because Joe Biden is not woke. I mean, if there's a criticism of Joe Biden, it's is he definitely awake.

Speaker 12 This didn't come from the Biden administration, but there are definitely parts of the Democratic Party that are super progressive and demanding about their progressive goals.

Speaker 12 And there's loads of advocacy groups, right? There are loads of groups out there that in the last five years, you know, they were making lists.

Speaker 12 Here are the companies that are giving to this group and here are the companies that aren't. And they were hanging those lists and calling those CEOs out.
And it was a headache.

Speaker 12 But you bring up a good point. It was not President Biden himself, but.

Speaker 13 And it was also a little bit of a headache of their own making. This is what I'm saying.
You want to bring some masculine energy, Mr. CEOs.

Speaker 13 And I do notice, we're worried that simultaneously saying DEI has become a problem and have gone overboard, all of the oligarchs sitting right behind Donald Trump on stage are men, are white men, except for Sundar.

Speaker 13 Yes.

Speaker 13 So it's like, I guess we haven't fully, you know, achieved balance quite yet, but when it comes to gender, but it's like these guys that want to bring masculine energy, they could have just said, hey, activist group, writing a press release about how my company doesn't have the appropriate number of whatever.

Speaker 13 You know, since I'm gay, I can just use gays as the example, like gay employees, like pound sand. Like we're trying to get money for our shareholders.
We're doing the best we can.

Speaker 13 Like they could have had balls. Like why did they need Donald Trump winning to give them balls? I guess is my point.

Speaker 12 Listen, it is a cultural shift, right? There was this groundswell that we saw in the last five years a lot more power go to the labor side, not the boss side.

Speaker 13 The boss side did pretty good the last five years too, though. I'm a capitalist.
This is why I'm saying I'm like, I don't get why they are so much more sensitive than me.

Speaker 13 I'm generally on all their side. Look, if the economy was doing poorly, if their stock prices were going down, like none of that was happening.

Speaker 13 Everything, like they all, they just didn't like the hassle. I guess this is what I'm trying to get under it.
They didn't like the hassle.

Speaker 13 It wasn't really like their shareholders were being hurt by this or that their bottom line was being hurt. They didn't like the hassle.

Speaker 12 No shareholders were being hurt. No bottom line was being hurt.
They didn't like the hassle of every time they were making a big hire in their company, somebody on their board pushing them on.

Speaker 12 Well, have you met with diversity candidates? Why are you hiring another person like this? And so you've hit the nail on the head.

Speaker 12 Show me a company that's bottom line was decimated or even hurt by this.

Speaker 13 Bud Light, I guess. For a minute.
Yes, yes.

Speaker 12 Bud Light made a marketing guffaw that I think that even that silly, tiny, small campaign. was misguided in who their customers were.
And then it turned into this giant cultural, devastating move.

Speaker 12 But that's finding its way back. I I mean, that was just a set of unfortunate circumstances, but you've hit the nail on the head that the wokeness wasn't crushing any company's bottom line.

Speaker 12 Not that I can think of.

Speaker 13 You're 100% right.

Speaker 12 That more than anything, it's a headache and a time suck. It wasn't really hurting people's businesses, but woke has become a boogeyman.

Speaker 12 And I think that oftentimes Democrats are

Speaker 12 so consumed and careful with being inclusive that it's to their own detriment. I'll take it from woke to economic terms.

Speaker 12 We had so many economic wins or there's so many times I think they could take a victory lap or dunk a basketball, but they're so concerned about offending or angering someone.

Speaker 12 It's like Democrats don't want to sing happy birthday until every kid in America has a cupcake.

Speaker 12 And because of that, they end up losing the messaging battle.

Speaker 13 We can nitpick about the Democrats a little more in a second, but I just, you're talking to these guys and I'm not.

Speaker 13 So I just want to pick your brain on this because this is another thing that I just think about.

Speaker 13 I also am annoyed by some of the stuff. I had to do an HR training the other week that was like for a child.
And, you know, and the way that they talk to you, it's condescending.

Speaker 13 And it's like, and all the situations they put you in. It's like, you know, what if an Asian person in the office and

Speaker 13 a white person had a disagreement? It's like, why are we doing all that? So like, there's some of this stuff that is stupid.

Speaker 12 Okay, but that's also why Donald Trump gives them a permission structure because he's so out there in being brutal and inappropriate and lying all the, you know, it's almost like,

Speaker 12 well, if that guy can do that, at least I can get back to here.

Speaker 12 I mean, what infuriated me about, you know, there was that FT article last week of a bunch of business people and specifically bankers who were like, oh my God, we can be ourselves again.

Speaker 12 Like we can use the P word and the R word at work. It's a new dawn.
And the best part about that complete P of a banker banker is that he was anonymous. If you're so excited about that.

Speaker 13 You can say the P word on the Bullwork podcast again. That's nice.
He was anonymous.

Speaker 12 Like, if you're so excited about the new dawn and saying all your dirty words at work again, well, why were you anonymous?

Speaker 12 And by the way, bullshit to you, the FT, that you allowed that person to be anonymous. Okay.
This is just a personal gripe I have.

Speaker 12 No one should get to be an anonymous source in a story unless they're truly at risk, unless their job is at risk, unless their life is at risk.

Speaker 12 The new standard that we've set in journalism, that you can just talk shit and be anonymous, that's called dangerous gossip.

Speaker 13 Yeah, I said this during the first Trump term. I was like, why are we letting Kellyanne shit talk Bannon anonymously behind the scenes? Like, that's not serving anything.

Speaker 13 Like, if there's a whistleblower, sure. If there's somebody that's like leaking you something that they're not supposed to, sure.

Speaker 13 But like trash talking, you know, saying, oh, yeah, I get to say retard now.

Speaker 13 Okay, then. All right.
If you can, then let's say it. What bank are you at again? Let's hear it.
And by the way, I think you were probably saying it before, if you're saying it now.

Speaker 12 Great. You want to say retard at work? Go for it.

Speaker 12 If you think we're back to the good old days, I double-dog dare you to take your clients to a strip club next week and expense it, and your ass is getting fired.

Speaker 13 Yeah, we'll see how it goes. So, anyway, I wanted to set the table with that because I'm saying I concur that there are some annoying things about the post the shift, right?

Speaker 13 There's maybe there was overstepping, maybe some of the stuff was silly. But if you're making a risk assessment, these CEOs are at the top of their game, right?

Speaker 13 Like, and their job every day is like risk reward. How do I make money? How do I mitigate risk?

Speaker 13 Like, it is astonishing to me that none of them looked at Donald Trump and were like, okay, well, the reward is I won't have to do diversity interviews again, I guess, or people will come back into the office.

Speaker 13 But the risk is going to be, who knows, 25% tariff that tanks the economy. Like, who knows what this guy could do? He's unpredictable.
He's chaotic.

Speaker 12 Tim, remember, he did not have overwhelming support support during the campaign. They didn't back him then.

Speaker 13 But they didn't oppose him either, really.

Speaker 12 Yeah, but that's also not their job to, right? Right. So an overwhelming majority of Fortune 500 CEOs that did speak about politics backed Kamala Harris.
Trump won, and then the table got reset.

Speaker 12 And they know from the last administration, and I'm going to create two groups of CEOs, but they know from the last administration, if you want to get shit done, play ball with him.

Speaker 12 You don't want to be Disney.

Speaker 12 You don't want to be in the position that Bob Iger was in, and you're spending countless hours and millions of dollars battling nonsense culture war battles with the government.

Speaker 12 So they're like, I want to play ball with Trump because I want to get stuff out of him.

Speaker 12 He's the most transactional president in modern history, maybe ever, who at this point, people keep saying he's focused on his legacy. He's focused on enriching himself and it's working.
Okay.

Speaker 12 He's not tied to any ideology. Look what he's done in the last couple of weeks just with crypto alone.
We used to talk about Donald Trump, the failed businessman. He ain't failed anymore.

Speaker 12 He is finally worth billions of dollars. But there's two different kinds of businessmen.
There are some that have gone so far over the top.

Speaker 12 I'm looking at you, Mark Zuckerberg, forgetting that in many ways, Donald Trump is a lame duck president who will be out of power in two years.

Speaker 12 And then you've got, like, to me, the Jamie Dimons of the world who, like, yeah, of course they're going to work with the president. Of course, they're going to work with the Treasury Department.

Speaker 12 And if Jamie Dimon gets asked to go down to the White House now that Trump's in office, I'm sure he will.

Speaker 12 But the whole cartwheeling down to Mar-a-Lago, dancing the foxtrot with Trump, doing the macarena with him, and then giving him an unlimited amount of money is silly and sophomoric.

Speaker 12 But those CEOs that were right behind him at the inauguration, the reason it matters, right? And I'm sure people are going, do you remember all the Democrats, all the people who gave money to Biden?

Speaker 12 Remember George Soros?

Speaker 13 Sure, I do. There's nothing like the Musk situation in the Biden administration.

Speaker 12 There's nothing like the Musk situation, a man whose business is built on government contracts. Okay.

Speaker 12 Trump said it on Inauguration Day among all the things he wants to do, and he's like, and maybe we're going to head to Mars and put a flag on Mars.

Speaker 13 Look back.

Speaker 12 Elon Musk has been saying since 2016, I think I saw him in an interview in 2019. He may have even been brought to tears.

Speaker 12 It might have been Kara Swisher, where his number one goal in this world is to go to Mars. Okay.
It's what space exploration is what Jeff Bezos wants more than anything.

Speaker 12 And yes, on one level, you could say these are the richest men in the world, but they do not have enough money for big-time space exploration.

Speaker 12 So if you see Donald Trump now put all this money in sending us to Mars, right?

Speaker 12 He just dismantled this space exploration council that Elon Musk's lobbyists have been trying to dismantle because they don't want any regulations.

Speaker 12 They want unlimited government dollars and no regulations so these boys can go to outer space. Now, when and if this happens, what I want you to do is go see Trump's base.

Speaker 12 You can't find me one single voter out there who is unhappy with the economy, with education, with immigration, with their lot in life, who are also saying, but I would love for us to spend tens of billions of dollars going to Mars.

Speaker 12 That those men who are standing behind Trump have already have more money than you could ever imagine. What they don't have is is unlimited power.

Speaker 12 And Donald Trump is saying, for an algorithm that works in my favor, for controlling information to only spit out what I want on all these things and to give you no regulation, I want you guys to line my pockets and show the world that the biggest business people out there are my homeboys.

Speaker 12 And that's why it's concerning.

Speaker 13 One more on just the CEOs are at large because your Jamie Diamond point is,

Speaker 13 I think, appropriate. And that's another one of the reasons I want to talk about this, because I think that's reasonable.

Speaker 13 I mean, it might not be how I would want to act as a CEO, but it's defensible, right? Like he has this, he has a lot of contingencies. You know, he's not down there tossing Trump salad.

Speaker 13 If he has to do it, he has to do it. Like, but whatever, right? Okay.
But here's the thing with some of these guys. Like, and my colleague Jonathan last wrote about this for his tryout the other week.

Speaker 13 He's like, isn't the point of having fuck you money that you can say fuck you?

Speaker 13 No, no, no. Isn't that the whole? That's why they call it fuck you money, right?

Speaker 12 Because a very small percentage of people who even have fuck you money, right? I'd like to think if I had fuck you money, then I would actually go lead a totally private life. I would move to Hawaii.

Speaker 12 I'd live in the south of France in the summer, but they don't. These type of people who are that successful are adrenaline addicts.
They are trolling the earth for their next high, right?

Speaker 12 If you look at some of the biggest guys in private equity, you would think at 78 years old, they would be retired, right?

Speaker 12 Surrounded by a bevy of either hot young women, they would either be surrounded by their wife of 50 years and their extraordinary children, or 17 hot pinup girls that they met on OnlyFans.

Speaker 12 But either one of those categories, I can see, but they're not.

Speaker 12 These guys continue to spend all of their lives on planes searching for the next deal because they're addicts, they're adrenaline addicts, and they already have all the money.

Speaker 12 And what they now want, what they desire, is unlimited power.

Speaker 2 Get Ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 7 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 3 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 9 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 2 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 1 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 4 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close. Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

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Stanford Shopping Center, Palo Alto.

Speaker 13 That takes us to Elon. It's truly astonishing.

Speaker 13 I don't think that anybody's really wrapped their mind around it adequately. Like that the largest government contractor was the largest donor to the president.

Speaker 13 is now going to have an office in the White House. And according to a report from Jeff Stein out today,

Speaker 13 there's an internal fight about that office.

Speaker 13 Initially, it was not going to be inside the White House. Musk wanted it to be.

Speaker 13 Musk wanted technology and AI access to government data that you can only get if you're on the inside so that he can.

Speaker 12 Remember, he didn't divest himself. He has not gone through any conflicts of interest vetting.
He doesn't have to get confirmed because he's like, oh, I'm just volunteering. This ain't volunteering.

Speaker 12 This will make him exponentially wealthier and more powerful.

Speaker 13 More than that, it also is going to allow him to go after his foes. And you're already seeing this, like publicly, he does it on Twitter, trolling people.

Speaker 13 But like, there was an announcement, I guess, yesterday that Trump was trying to take credit for the investment that Open AI and Sam Altman is going to do now.

Speaker 13 It was like one of these stupid PR gambits. Tim Cook did this for Trump last time.
They're like, hey, we're going to build a new plant. And like, you can can get the credit, sir.

Speaker 13 So Altman was trying to do that. And Musk is tweeting, Altman doesn't have the money.
They don't have the money because he's got a rivalry with him. And so it's like from it.

Speaker 13 So he's undermining Trump and then he's going to have access to the data and the information inside the White House. I mean, like, it's an unprecedented situation.

Speaker 12 Unprecedented. Sam Altman and Elon Musk have been foes, have been rivals for years.
So I actually think two things.

Speaker 12 I think that Donald Trump doing this big AI announcement with Oracle, Microsoft, Sam Altman was also a way for Trump to kind of put Elon Musk on notice, but to say to everybody out there who's been saying for weeks, Trump's the real president or they're co-presidents.

Speaker 12 Trump saying, no, no, no, no, no, Elon, you're not my only tech boyfriend. There's only one boss in town, and I'm the daddy.
So, on one hand, Trump said to Elon, you can back off.

Speaker 12 But Elon's not wrong in saying they don't have the money because

Speaker 12 these artificial intelligence companies, these guys were working with the Biden administration, right? Biden could have done this, could have announced it, right?

Speaker 12 But what Trump did was take off all the AI regulations that Biden was putting in place with his executive order and rushing to make the announcement.

Speaker 12 So to me, it just sort of encapsulated both presidents. Democrats who are so overly careful, right? Right.

Speaker 12 Lena Kahn style, like, you know, I want to, I'm going to stand in the way because I'm so overly careful. Or Trump, who's like, who cares if we have the money? Let's just announce it.

Speaker 12 But I will say this. Democrats, when they do things that they believe are good, do a better job of talking about it, right?

Speaker 12 Lena Kahn did many, many things where she was trying to protect the American consumer, and they got absolutely no credit for it.

Speaker 12 Show me one voter out there who said, they are really trying to protect me. They're trying to make sure that we don't end up with monopolies and conglomerates that control pricing.

Speaker 12 They were such poor. Instead, the whole business community was like, I effing hate Lena Khan.
She stands in the way of business. This administration is anti-business.

Speaker 12 And the Biden administration needs to do a, okay, ready? I'm going to ask you this question.

Speaker 13 Ready?

Speaker 12 Joe Biden forgave billions and billions of dollars in student debt. He ended up in a legal battle to do it.

Speaker 12 It made a lot of people that didn't have college educations, those blue collar worker, you know, the Trump voter angry, saying, why are you giving this free money?

Speaker 12 Why are you forgiving the debt of college educated people with tons of opportunities? And then there was other wealthy people that are like, Biden's buying votes.

Speaker 12 My question is, to the millions of people that got their student debt forgiven,

Speaker 12 Where was the Kamala Harris advertisement? Where was the campaign event of people standing there saying, I just got all of my student debt forgiven. And because of that, I can start this business.

Speaker 12 I could buy this house. It changed my life.
So the Biden administration does these things that are good for many, many people that also get lots of criticism.

Speaker 12 And they have not figured out how do you convert that into support and votes.

Speaker 12 I'm asking you, have you seen one person who got their student debt forgiven who said, Joe Biden or Kamal Aris is getting my vote because of that?

Speaker 13 You can take the host out of the host chair, but she's still going to be hosting the show and asking me questions. I'm asking you.
No, I look, they're in the sour spot on this.

Speaker 13 I'll just give a couple of examples.

Speaker 13 We're in a Tom Friedman for a second. I like talking to humans.
And so the humans I talk to are Uber drivers, gentlemen at the gay bar, and baristas and security guards.

Speaker 13 So over the past little bit, just like you mentioned the student loan thing. I said this during the summer, probably on this podcast.

Speaker 13 The young guy recognizes me at the bar, comes out to me, and he's like, hey, no, no, no. He's like, when's Joe Biden going to forgive my student loans?

Speaker 13 Right. Because

Speaker 13 he didn't make the cut or whatever, right? Like it was like the age. I didn't have that, you know what I mean?

Speaker 13 I was an asthma.

Speaker 12 All I heard was from people who didn't get theirs forgiven. Like, what the hell? Everybody but me.

Speaker 13 Yeah. So he ended up in this sour spot, right?

Speaker 13 Where like, where like a lot of kind of college educated people that were already in the Biden tent got loans forgiven and did kind of give credit, but like, you know, there wasn't

Speaker 13 a net gain. And then the people that they were struggling with, working class folks, young folks that are pissed about Gaza, were hearing about it and were like, where's my my bag? Right.

Speaker 13 So I was just downstairs this morning and I was talking with a guy at the security guard at this hotel since I'm stuck at the Hotel California, Trump's inauguration week.

Speaker 13 I can never leave because I can't go home to New Orleans because of the snack.

Speaker 12 Oh, I'm so sorry. You're in the greatest city in America.
Maybe the world.

Speaker 13 Boohoo to you.

Speaker 13 But I've made friends with my guy downstairs and he starts ran into me about the TikTok thing and the $9 congestion fee. He comes in from upstate.
He's like, I got to pay the nine bucks now.

Speaker 13 I'm an hourly worker.

Speaker 13 He's like, maybe Trump's going to fix that for me like he fixed the tick tock thing so this guy says to me whatever you think about the congestion fee and the student loan bailout and the tick tock ban because i'm on two of those three i'm on the democratic side of the of the actual policy but like you also have to think about like how people interact with stuff and how it engages with their lives and they're so bad at like talking about it and doing like thinking about gimmicks that actually help people and i think that you've seen this on all this stuff Like you mentioned this AI thing.

Speaker 13 They're doing some regulation to protect people, but they're not messaging about it. So they get no credit for it.

Speaker 13 But they do get backlash among all the rich guys that are now supporting Donald Trump because they want unregulated AI.

Speaker 13 It's just time and again, you find yourself in a political sour spot where you're trying to do the right thing, but like not finding a way to talk about it

Speaker 13 so that people realize you're helping them. And I just think that is fundamentally their biggest challenge.

Speaker 12 In TikTok, and this isn't on Democrats, it's on all of government that voted to ban it.

Speaker 12 In TikTok, they did not sufficiently explain to and convince the American people why TikTok is a national security risk.

Speaker 12 Because by and large, we have all basically, we're under the assumption we've given away our data. We've sold our personal information.

Speaker 12 What's the difference, whether it's China, Elon Musk, or Mark Zuckerberg? And we no longer trust our government or take their word for it. And so people love the TikTok.

Speaker 12 It's one of the only platforms that I would say, I don't use it actively, but that people would say gives them joy. And Democrats failed to say, we're doing this to protect you and here's why.

Speaker 12 So I just think for all the good that they did, my gosh, they're terrible at messaging it. And part of it is being unbelievably careful about messaging.

Speaker 12 They become so hamstrung in making sure they cross every T and dot every I. Nobody believes a bullshit press release that's gone through seven lawyers.

Speaker 12 It's why Donald Trump ends up with the amount of support from young people because whether it's a lie or the truth, he lets it rip.

Speaker 12 And people connect with letting it rip much more than they do a scripted speech.

Speaker 13 I totally agree. And it's hard to find Democrats right there who are out there who like can let it rip.
And it's like there needs to be a deprogramming class. We can host a deprogramming seminar.

Speaker 13 We're not doing DEI seminars anymore, so we can maybe do talking, like talking like a human deprogramming.

Speaker 12 But look how successful Republicans were with the whole trans youth sports thing.

Speaker 12 Okay. All of my children go to single-sex schools.
Okay. There's not even an opportunity for a trans athlete to be on one of the fields.

Speaker 12 Yet every sporting event I would attend, parents were talking about it. Republicans found an opening, ran the table, and Democrats were so panicked about possibly offending someone,

Speaker 12 they left that space open and let it get filled with lies and had a narrative told for them.

Speaker 13 I'm not even advocating that they change positions on any of these things. It's like, but find things that resonate with people, right? Find gimmicks.
That is politics. Unfortunately, that's politics.

Speaker 13 It might feel crass or whatever and talk about it like normal people. It's hard to think about something that people can grab onto that they're like, oh, I'm excited that the Dems are pushing this.

Speaker 13 Okay. Here's what could happen for them, though, that could work out in their favor.
Donald Trump could fuck everything up. Right.
And that could end up being what people grab on to.

Speaker 13 And I just want to go back to what you were talking about earlier about crypto.

Speaker 13 I think that there are a lot of people, a lot of people listening to this podcast that if you're not in the crypto world, it's hard to understand.

Speaker 12 You tune it out. You hate it.
You're like, oh, I can't stand it.

Speaker 13 Right. You know, and so

Speaker 13 as soon as you start hearing the words, they talk about the exchanges and all this, you're like, whatever. Okay.
Blockchain. But here's the thing.
Like, they have essentially

Speaker 13 like said that they're that crypto is going to be unregulated right they've got rid of gary gensler ai is unregulated and you bring in this new group these pump and dump schemes right where people create fake coins that have no actual value like trump did insiders put a bunch of money in they try to get regular rubes to put the money in.

Speaker 13 The stock goes up. Yeah, who do? Stock goes up.
They make a lot of money. Stock crashes.
Real people lose their money.

Speaker 12 womp womp right i think that that is going to be de facto legal during the next four years because they're not going to regulate it right yes it will and lots of folks will say well who cares like if those rubes want to you know spend their disposable income and lose all their money not my problem but it will be our problem if they allow crypto to become so big which is what they are letting happen that suddenly the government bails out all these people who lose then we're going to certainly care.

Speaker 12 Yeah.

Speaker 13 Or if it gets tied in, and this is what I wanted to ask you about, any of your old Deutsche Bank pals are thinking about it.

Speaker 13 To me, it feels like some of the banks are going to get exposed for this, right?

Speaker 13 Because one of the regulations that the Biden administration was trying to put in was like, you know, creating some rules, you know, kind of like they did in Dodd-Frank that like separates the risky investments out from, you know, whatever, the more the stable like mortgages, et cetera.

Speaker 13 That feels like that's going to end now.

Speaker 12 So the banks have like kind of been on the fence. Like in the early days, the Jamie Dimons and the Larry Fink, that's the CEO of BlackRock of the world were like, crypto Schmipto.

Speaker 12 Like I'm not up for it. I mean, it was funny.
Even Eric Trump, when he was speaking at a crypto conference a couple months ago after Trump won, I think it was in Dubai, he said,

Speaker 12 yes, my dad used to dog on crypto and we weren't involved. But after January 6th, when nobody would bank with us, when nobody would do business with us, we found crypto.
Okay, right there.

Speaker 12 Like you found crypto because it was in the dark dark corners of the world where

Speaker 12 bad things could happen.

Speaker 12 But eventually, like they always do, lots of banks like held off on crypto. They were like, nah, it doesn't seal so good.
But it got bigger and bigger and there was more and more money to be made.

Speaker 12 And then there's no rules on it. They're like, shit, I'm getting in the game too.

Speaker 13 Yeah. And this is broadly about Trump.
Who knows?

Speaker 13 And it's like we might have got through. that first four years if it wasn't for the pandemic, you know, and like that first three years, he kind of bungled his way through.

Speaker 13 You know, know, like sometimes we like to, in America, we like to treat our presidents as if they're omniscient and all good things that happen in the world are their credit and all bad things that happen in the world are their fault.

Speaker 13 But like sometimes it's just luck. Like you're in there.
Like Bill Clinton was in there at kind of a good time for the economy and it worked out. He's also did some smart things, right?

Speaker 13 But like sometimes just luck. Sometimes you have bad luck.
You're in there. And so maybe Trump will have good luck.

Speaker 12 He is walking into a lucky position, right? He is being handed a very good economy. He's being handed a very good economy.
And now he's going to extend corporate tax cuts and take regulation off.

Speaker 12 I mean, like businesses are extremely excited about it. Yeah.

Speaker 13 There is also a potential crash. I mean, like the types of studies talking to doing, we haven't had a recession in a while.
The tariffs are unpredictable, what the impact is going to be.

Speaker 13 This exposure on crypto is unpredictable. Like what, you know, if like imagine if FTX had been more tied, right?

Speaker 13 Like at that time, FTX was pretty separate, but if FTX was like tied more broadly into the broader financial system, like that could have been a massive crisis that hurt regular people, not just people that got screwed over by Sam Brankman Freed and got in on his drift.

Speaker 12 But at moments like this, I don't think big businesses are thinking about regular people. Yesterday marked the 15-year anniversary of Citizens United, right?

Speaker 12 Citizens United, which opened the floodgates for corporate dollars into politics. I think over $5 billion was spent in this last election cycle.

Speaker 12 So you can connect the two of the everyday voters saying saying government does, and this is on both sides of the aisle. Government doesn't work for me anymore.
I don't believe in the government.

Speaker 12 What we need to do in the next four years, pay attention. These risks that you're talking about are going to be devastating to the everyday person if they happen.

Speaker 12 Big companies have less and less fear because what have they learned over the last 15 years? The government does bail you out. They do.

Speaker 12 Whether it's Silicon Valley Bank or the banks after the financial crisis and the TARP money.

Speaker 13 It's like all these people that are going into the Andreessen and Sachs and all these people that are going into the White House now with a mandate that like, we're going to deregulate.

Speaker 13 We're getting the government out of AI. They all got bailed out by the government, by the Biden government.

Speaker 12 These are the same people who were begging for Silicon Valley Bank to be rescued.

Speaker 12 The very, very same people who are like, this small business, when Silicon Valley Bank went under, all those people immediately were pushing forward all their portfolio companies.

Speaker 12 Look at this small business run by this woman in the valley. Look at this black-owned barbershop campaign.
They blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They all use that as their front.

Speaker 12 Just like during the pandemic, all the huge private equity firms went to Steve Mnuchin and went to Jared Kushner and said, we're not saying that we need a bailout, but a private equity firm backs lots of small and mid-sized companies.

Speaker 12 And they're saying they need a bailout. And so it's funny to me when they're like, oh my God, Joe Biden and Democrats spent so much money on the, on so much COVID money.

Speaker 12 That's what put us in this inflationary spiral. They did.
And I would say that last bit of money, whatever the, the, was it the American Rescue Plan was,

Speaker 12 you could debate whether or not they needed it, but it was Democrats and Republicans spent an enormous amount of money pulling us out of COVID. And you could debate that, was it too much money?

Speaker 12 Did it put us in this inflationary situation? It did. But think about how bad things were during COVID.

Speaker 13 And then we pulled out of it. Yeah.
Think about how bad the actual greater situation is.

Speaker 12 Nobody wants regulations. You're a parent.
Yeah. You're a parent, right? My teenage sons, they would love no rules and unlimited money.
Yeah. Right.

Speaker 12 Until they crash the car and they have a party at my house and everything gets broken.

Speaker 12 But nobody thinks that way when they're in the moment.

Speaker 13 Now you're talking about 1999 in suburban Denver.

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Speaker 13 All right, I got to get on Scotty Besant before I lose you. So he testifies.

Speaker 13 He's going to be confirmed. Besant.
I always, I'm mispronouncing his name. I got to get it right.
There are two interesting things with the testimony for me.

Speaker 13 One, there's a Raphael Warnock exchange where he's like, so are you going to extend the Trump tax cuts for everybody to $1 million? $50 million, $100 million, a billion.

Speaker 13 You know, it keeps going up and Besant's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we need to extend the Trump tax cuts even for billionaires.

Speaker 12 He talks about the Trump tax cuts for corporations like it's life or death. He talks about like it's this existential crisis.
And the thing is, no one is saying bring it back to 39%.

Speaker 12 No one's suggesting that. He's in this like companies will be running to Guernsey and

Speaker 12 strange parts of Ireland to re-domicile. Like it's a balancing game, right? You do not want to be too high because companies are going to say it's just too damn expensive to do business here.

Speaker 12 But there's no reason to be extraordinarily low because there's no Republican who has explained to you or me how they're going to offset this.

Speaker 13 Right. And so this is kind of what I wanted to get to, which is he was adamant about this, right?

Speaker 13 So it seems like the Trump administration position, as we know for right now, is that they're going to extend all the Trump tax cuts, even for the richest people and all the corporations, which is going to be about a $4 or $5 trillion price tag.

Speaker 13 And you have at least a handful of House Republicans that still claim to care about the budget, and they have a two-seat majority.

Speaker 13 And so, like, I just think with all of the craziness happening, it's like the Elon, you know, C. Kyle salute and all the things we want to talk about.

Speaker 13 Like, the real fight that's coming is like in your wheelhouse, right? Is this

Speaker 13 like the Treasury Secretary's testimony? And maybe one way they try to fake their way out of it is by actually doing the tariffs, because then they can be like, well, the tariffs will pay for this.

Speaker 13 You know, it's kind of like a new, an updated version of the tax cuts will pay for themselves. It's like the tariffs will pay for the tax cut extension.

Speaker 13 And I just like, that is a, that's a real financial pickle, I think, that that's for some people.

Speaker 12 It is. But the thing about the economy is it's the hardest thing to lie about, right?

Speaker 12 People could watch the news or not watch the news or say, you know, you could fill them with misinformation and they could say, oh, it was Joe Biden's fault or Kamala Harris's fault.

Speaker 12 At the end of the day, everybody knows. how much their rent costs, how much their insurance costs, and how much their grocery bill costs.
You've already seen Trump back off off this, right?

Speaker 12 Like, we're going to lower your grocery prices. He's already said, oh, well, that's really hard.

Speaker 12 One of his first executive orders was to remove the executive order Joe Biden put in place, which was capping prescription drug prices.

Speaker 12 So Donald Trump does not want the economy to fall off the rails. Neither does Scott Besson.
But what I'm going to pay close attention to is: look at when they were working on the budget.

Speaker 12 They have Elon Musk weighing in and formerly Vivek, now gone. You know, these guys have the old school libertarian views of like, let's actually do something about entitlement reform.

Speaker 12 Let's do something about Medicare and Medicaid, right? And then all these actual Republicans in the Senate are like, hell to the no, we won't. We touch entitlements and I'm going to lose my job.

Speaker 12 Right. So when you bring all these business people in, they look at things like Social Security on paper and they're like, shit, this is killing us.

Speaker 12 We have to have entitlement reform because we're running out of money. And they're right on paper.
But none of those business people have have ever needed to get elected.

Speaker 12 None of those people have ever, they fly right over the villages and head to Palm Beach, okay? They don't know what it's like to actually cut programs that people need.

Speaker 12 And Scott Besson doesn't know it. Now, Scott Besson could have done a better job.

Speaker 12 Like when Bernie Sanders was grilling him on minimum wage, it is a Republican view to not raise the minimum wage federally. It is a Republican view to do it on a state and local basis, right?

Speaker 12 and and i'm not saying i feel that way but i can hear the argument that what it costs to live in birmingham alabama is different from what it costs to live in williamsburg so you could argue minimum wage should be different things in different parts of the country but if that's the republican view which it is just say it just say it own it and do something about it the challenge they're going to have is scott besson and elon musk and howard luttnick they want entitlement reform they want cuts to those programs but you know who doesn't want want that?

Speaker 12 The actual members of Congress

Speaker 12 who set these laws, who set policies, because they need to get re-elected. And the mega voters.
Donald Musk has never run for something. He doesn't know what it's like.

Speaker 13 And the mega voters who are on Social Security, Medicaid, Medicaid. All right, final question.
I want to circle this back to the initial question.

Speaker 13 Because of all we talked about, what's been undergirding all this? You have all the billionaires sitting behind Donald Trump.

Speaker 13 You have Scott Besant saying that they're going to extend the tax cuts on the wealthiest and on all these corporations.

Speaker 13 We have the vibe shift when it comes to, you know, whatever, DEI and cultural issues. Are these guys ready?

Speaker 13 Your CEO buddies, your CEO sources,

Speaker 13 are they ready for what's coming?

Speaker 13 Because I think what they're setting themselves up for is, I think they're going to be wishing for the annoyance of DEI when it gets replaced with the annoyance of eat the rich.

Speaker 13 Because populist economics is what's coming next from the left.

Speaker 13 And I think these guys are going to be begging for the struggle sessions about diversity hiring when what they're getting is mass protests about economic inequality.

Speaker 12 You are so right

Speaker 12 on this.

Speaker 12 And they have this belief that Donald Trump has a mandate. They have this belief that it was an overwhelming sweeping win.
It wasn't. Donald Trump won fair and square.
What was it?

Speaker 12 49 point, I don't know what, 8%

Speaker 12 of the vote. He got it.
but he didn't get 75 percent. He didn't get 80 percent, right? They have the slimmest, slimmest majority right now.
And so, yeah, I think they're overplaying their hand.

Speaker 12 And remember, he is a Donald Duck lame president. He's got two years before the midterms.
And we'll see what's about to happen. It's like they're forgetting that Occupy Wall Street took place.

Speaker 12 And we could see this massive eat the rich movement. We'll soon find out.

Speaker 13 We will. Steph Rule, thanks for doing this.
Thanks for having me. We're going to have a a lot of reason for you to come back.
It feels like the

Speaker 13 masters of the universe are back in vogue and back in power. And so I love much to talk about.
So thanks so much. We are.

Speaker 12 Well, who knows? Maybe I'll be in New Orleans because the Washington Commanders could make it to the Super Bowl. We could do this podcast live.

Speaker 13 I would love that. I keep waiting for somebody to invite me.
So if Jaden makes it, I assume that you'll be giving me your plus one. And I'll see you there in New Orleans.
I love,

Speaker 12 I'm going to tell you, for the last four days, if somebody looks up my search engine, I think I've watched 90 videos of Jaden Daniels. I just love him.

Speaker 13 We love it. Jay, it's been a Trump Durangent Syndrome and Jaden Daniels fanboy podcast this week because, you know, we need some light in our life.
Steph Rule, thank you so much. Everybody else,

Speaker 12 stop it. We are the light in our life.
Stop with this. It's so dark.
It is so dark if you leave the fucking lights off. Be the light, Tim.

Speaker 13 People are going to stop listening to this podcast if you tell them that. All right.
Thank you, everybody. Come on back tomorrow.

Speaker 13 We'll see you back here then, and I'll give you the darkness you've become accustomed to, but maybe with a little happier meen, thanks to that pep talk from Steph. We'll see you all then.

Speaker 12 See ya.

Speaker 13 Take me to the place where the sunshine flows.

Speaker 13 Oh, my sunset roll.

Speaker 13 Hop she concerns the green card in the way.

Speaker 13 The Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are moving to LA. When we've been dreaming of this feeling since 1988,

Speaker 13 mother,

Speaker 13 things have gotten change. I'm moving to LA.
The Bullwork podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 13 This is Matt Rogers from Lost Culture Issas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Resistance with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.
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