Jen Psaki: Don't Speak to Me

Speaker 2 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 5 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 2 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 3 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 8 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 1 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 7 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close. Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 10 Ah, greetings for my bath, festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money, getting 5% cash back when I pay in four.

Speaker 10 No fees, no interest. I used it to get this portable spa with jets.
Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body. Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal.

Speaker 10 Save the offer and the app. NS1231, see paypal.com/slash promo terms, points give your reading for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval.
PayPal Inc. and MLS 910-457.

Speaker 10 Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
I am just delighted to relive my election night trauma with my friend, the host of Inside with Jen Saki.

Speaker 10 She was White House press secretary for Joe Biden, and she's the author of Say More, Lessons from Work, The White House, and the World. It is Jen Saki herself.
How are you doing?

Speaker 11 I'm good. I mean, was that the last time I saw you in person? I guess it was, right?

Speaker 10 So, yeah, I was two weeks ago, I guess. It feels longer.

Speaker 11 What I've thought about since you raised this is... What people don't know is you spend all this time knowing where the election is headed, right?

Speaker 11 But the decision desk, you have have to wait for the decision desk to call it in any network.

Speaker 11 So you and I and Alex Lupica, who's my amazing executive producer, I couldn't do the show without, we're in the green room talking about, okay,

Speaker 11 we're about to go on television for three to four hours. We may or may not know the outcome of the election during that time.

Speaker 11 Let's talk about how we're going to handle it in the moment, right? Because you have to think a little bit about when a race is called.

Speaker 11 And also, how are we going to talk about it before the race is called?

Speaker 11 This is the kind of strange awkwardness of middle of the night over and under caffeinated green room convos.

Speaker 10 It was awkward. I was very happy to spend it with you.
Could have been with worse people.

Speaker 11 Thank you. You're the best after dark guest.
Don't tell anyone else who listens that is another after dark guest, but you're the best one.

Speaker 10 Yeah, I do thrive at the 3 a.m. hour.
And it also, in this case, was about

Speaker 10 delaying our feelings a lot, I think, during that period. I don't know about you.

Speaker 10 I was very conscious of, like, I don't want to be on, you know, any Newsmax blooper reels the next day, you know what I mean? Of what's happening on cable.

Speaker 10 I want to just be serious about this and do analysis and kind of

Speaker 10 save my little feels for, you know, some other time. But I don't know.
Were you also conscious of that?

Speaker 11 Yes. I was thinking a lot about

Speaker 11 because we knew for a couple of hours where it was headed. And, you know, surprises surprises happen.
And we'd also talked internally about there can be a range of outcomes.

Speaker 11 We don't know what the American public is going to do. That's what elections are.

Speaker 11 About, you know, your kind of responsibility when you're anchoring something or you're a guest or you're a host is to not lose your mind in the moment.

Speaker 11 You know, you don't need to stress people out further. And I think.

Speaker 11 What I was so grateful to you and Michael Steele and Molly and others for being a part of was as much as we had not called the race, we had spent a couple of hours doing a little little introspection about how we got here.

Speaker 11 And that felt appropriate for the moment as people are trying to make sense of it.

Speaker 11 People who are up at three and four in the morning, which there are a lot on election night, especially on the West Coast.

Speaker 10 One thing that I was thinking about that night in the little script that you and Alex were writing while I was sitting there trying not to, you know, get you out of your game and doom scroll and you know, prepare my own personal takes.

Speaker 10 In that script, you used the word digest, I think,

Speaker 10 four times.

Speaker 10 Like, we're digesting the results.

Speaker 11 Hopefully, I didn't end up using it four times in the end.

Speaker 10 We're digesting them all together. I'm digesting.
You're digesting. I was digesting.
The reality was

Speaker 10 neither of us really digested it in that night because we had a job to do. So, I'm curious.
We're two weeks out. You've had the chance to actually digest.

Speaker 10 And I'm wondering how you're thinking about it differently from when we were in that green room together.

Speaker 11 Well, what I meant by that, and what I still mean by that, at the risk of using the word digest again, still digesting,

Speaker 11 is that, and we've seen this, there's a tendency to knee-jerk claim what the per reasoning of a loss was, right? And this happens not just in 2024, but happens every cycle.

Speaker 11 You and I have been through a combined, I don't even know how many presidential, senate, other races. And that's rarely accurate, that initial knee-jerk reaction.

Speaker 11 So by digest, I mean taking the data as we learn it.

Speaker 11 Now, we've learned a couple of things as information has come in is that it is not a massive sweeping mandate that, you know, Trump won a smaller percent of the popular vote than many president-elects have won over the last several decades.

Speaker 11 He still won. He still won all seven swing states.

Speaker 10 I just had a couple of things to that mandate. Let's just go over that for a second because we haven't really done that on the podcast yet.
And it's a good point.

Speaker 10 Trump's now under 50% of the popular vote. So he still will have won the popular vote, but he won't have a bare majority.

Speaker 10 His margin is actually, this is, I'm studying this from Harry Enton, so shout out Harry. His margin is 44th of 51 since 1824.
So only seven races since 1824 were closer.

Speaker 10 Four Dems, one in Senate seats.

Speaker 10 We know that, but just to kind of put it in a little more context, in 2016 or 2020, there were zero examples of that where the president did not carry all the senators on their coattails with them.

Speaker 10 Here's the one that jumped out to me. The GOP is on track for the smallest House majority since there were 50 states.
I knew it was going to be small. I didn't realize it was that small.

Speaker 10 You know, again, we're going to talk about the bad parts of the mandate, but it is a little bit more limited than maybe it looked at 4.30 in the morning on election night.

Speaker 11 Correct. There are still interesting questions that I can't answer that I'm still exploring, including the misread by myself and others on abortion, the politics of abortion rights.

Speaker 11 And by that, I know you know what I mean, is abortion rights initiatives in a variety of wording were passed in seven states.

Speaker 11 Three of those, if I'm remembering correctly, Trump won, maybe more, three of them at least.

Speaker 11 That means that there were people, and including in the other states that he didn't with, there were people who voted for Trump and also voted for abortion rights protection ballot initiatives.

Speaker 11 And I think that would have shocked me a couple of weeks ago. And now I'm thinking, why would it shock me? People are complicated in how they look at issues and people they vote for.

Speaker 11 That, I think, is a wake-up call.

Speaker 11 I think I saw this story this morning, and I've heard some analysis of this, but I think this is very interesting and an interesting lesson for Democrats, that Democrats did very well among those who are very, very engaged, right?

Speaker 11 And not as well among those who are not. That is why I think they did better in the special elections and even why there wasn't a red wave.
two years ago.

Speaker 11 But it is a big wake-up call and it should be.

Speaker 10 And it's an inverse of Obama. It's an inverse.
It's an inverse of how we came up, right? Where we came up, it was.

Speaker 11 Yeah, and ever since I worked for Obama on both of his presidential campaigns, I went to nearly every political presidential event he ever did.

Speaker 11 People keep saying, and this is like all sorts of political prognosticators, all you have to do is recreate the Obama coalition. Nobody can recreate the Obama coalition.

Speaker 11 Nobody can recreate anyone's coalition. Everybody's coalition is different.
So I think the challenge is, what is the coalition moving forward?

Speaker 11 And it's going to depend on who is the candidate in 2028, which we don't know the answer to.

Speaker 11 The other piece I've thought a lot about that I don't have the answer to is the massive issue that Democrats have, aside from your wonderful podcast, MSNBC and others.

Speaker 11 And you've talked about this, I'm as a listener, there is a huge disadvantage that defenders of freedom, of rights, democracy have versus the other side. Because there is no,

Speaker 11 I hate to shorthanding it to the Joe Rogan or Theo Vaughn.

Speaker 11 It just doesn't exist on the other side there are different rules played and the eco chamber or the the ability to get your message out it just doesn't exist that is a issue that needs to be solved i don't know the answer to it but that is definitely a root problem the third thing i would just say is immigration politics, the politics of immigration, which has always been a difficult issue.

Speaker 11 It's changed a lot in this country.

Speaker 11 The politics of it, and what I mean by that is on the Democratic Party side and people who would be considered moderates or independents or even just basic would historically be Democrats.

Speaker 11 And one of the tells for me on that was when the bipartisan immigration deal, which was very conservative and I think would have lost 20 to 25 Democrats a couple of years ago, only five or six voted against it.

Speaker 11 There is still an out-of-touch way that there's not an acknowledgement of that as of that as an issue that people are concerned about in communities it's it's misunderstood in a lot of ways but that is another one i think that is a a lesson learned i kind of jumped around a little bit there i'm not sure that was like a perfect thesis but just some of the things i've been i've i've been struck by as i've thought about it The buckets there for me are abortion, the coalition, the Democrats changing coalition a way that was unhelpful to them in presidential elections, and the media stuff.

Speaker 10 So let's just take all three of those really quickly, one at a time. The abortion one, to me,

Speaker 10 the misread was just simply it's kind of a little bit of an old wives tale actually that there was this carl rove genius in 2004 it was like he's this evil genius to put gay marriage initiatives on and it really like helped republicans that much that year and i think that there's like mixed doubt on whether that's actually true yeah and i think in this case in presidential years people turn out people are going to turn out especially now like we've had record turnout in 2020 and nearly this time right and so like the notion that we're going to put an abortion ballot initiative on the ballot and there's going to be all these people come out of the woodwork.

Speaker 10 Like to me, that was the theory that didn't play out. Yeah.
Right.

Speaker 10 And in a sense, it almost backfired, I think, in some places, where there were, where there were people that were already going to come out that are pro-choice that are like, okay, great.

Speaker 10 I can have my cake and eat it too. I can have a secure border and reproductive rights in Arizona.
And that's a pretty common overlap of views, by the way.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 11 As you stated, it's like, yeah, obviously.

Speaker 11 But, but like leading, no, I mean, meaning leading up to it, and I was a part of this too, is like this assumption that these were going to be big drivers.

Speaker 11 I mean, the other thing, since you and I both come from messaging backgrounds, and it's easy to, you know, be a backseat driver on messaging, but I'll do it for a second, is the Democratic Party way of talking about the economy has become so academic and so poll-tested sounding that it's just not connecting.

Speaker 11 right? There's nothing wrong with having an opportunity agenda, but nobody knows what the heck that is, right?

Speaker 11 And if there is a lesson from the Affordable Care Act I can offer, it is that all of the time we talked about it as this sweeping healthcare bill, the Affordable Care Act, people were like, I don't want a sweeping thousand-page bill.

Speaker 11 You were probably part of the

Speaker 11 ad making against it.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 11 When we started to turn the corner, and actually to Harris's credit, she did some of this. There just wasn't, it wasn't the dominant thing.

Speaker 11 It's when you start to talk about the pieces of things that will actually help people's lives that people can bite into, right? Or speaking about things frankly in English and not in poll-tested.

Speaker 11 I mean, God bless John Kerry. I love him.
He was one of my favorite bosses I've ever had. But I laugh about his 2004 campaign slogans.
You remember this?

Speaker 11 It was like stronger, safer, and more secure at home and abroad.

Speaker 10 It's like, what is that?

Speaker 10 You know, I mean,

Speaker 10 it's like, so,

Speaker 10 yes.

Speaker 10 Speaking in English, okay, we're going to get to I've the big reason why Jen Saki's on is obviously the just cruel

Speaker 10 backhand that she gave to the never Trumpers on MSNBC last week. I was like, we have to hash this out.
But since you've talked about speech, we'll save you. That's our little teaser.

Speaker 10 We'll come to that. But since you talked about speaking in English, to me, this actually relates to the eco chamber more

Speaker 10 than actually building out left-wing media sites. Like, honestly, because like there is like one way to look at this, which is like liberals don't have enough pro-progressive media.

Speaker 10 And it's like, that's not really true. I mean, you know, Pod Save America does pretty well.
Like there's, you know, there are a lot of liberal influencers out there that do pretty well.

Speaker 10 Maybe not as many that could there be more? Sure, absolutely. But like, to me, it's more like in this big middle ground, right? Where there are guys like you mentioned, Joe and Theo, who are like,

Speaker 10 they're interested in Trump, but they're not Charlie Kirk. They're not down the line.
Like, we like, you know, they're not like down the line conservatives. I don't know Joe.
I know Theo.

Speaker 10 Theo's just a bro. Like he, he has some conservative views, some liberal views, and whatever.

Speaker 10 And like the inability to go into those spaces and talk to those people and be normal is a little bit of a problem.

Speaker 10 Like, how can you communicate to people who are not highly engaged in normal language?

Speaker 11 First of all, I think that there's a fearfulness that sometimes people run with that is never a winning strategy. I'm not saying she did.
She did Brett Baer and did other things.

Speaker 11 I think in general, as we look forward, the lesson here is to be more fearless in terms of who you talk. What's the worst thing that's going to happen? It's just really,

Speaker 11 and some of it is like people build up these people as if they are,

Speaker 11 you know,

Speaker 11 like, you know, so much smarter or so much more able to.

Speaker 10 Jovan was going to run circles around Kamala's. Come on, man.
It's just like, come on.

Speaker 11 So that is a lesson. There is still an element within the old schoolness of the Democratic Party, maybe Republicans too, where it's like, you know how we can get our message out?

Speaker 11 In a print copy of the Washington Post in the opinion page. And you're like,

Speaker 11 no, that is not how you can get your message out, right? That's still lingering.

Speaker 11 I think it's changing, but I do think thinking about things a little differently is a part of, I hope, what people do moving forward.

Speaker 10 For sure. Yeah, ideology is obviously important.
And in 2028, I'll want the Democrat that's the squishiest, probably. You know, this is no secret.

Speaker 10 But like, the candidate candidate quality thing for me in 2025 is who can just go and talk to people and sound normal? Yes.

Speaker 10 And that's like the new, like, I don't, I don't mean it in the dumb way, like, oh, I want to have a beer with them.

Speaker 10 I just, I literally just mean like, who's capable of having, because these are how the conversations happen. Like, who's capable of seeming authentic on social media, in podcasts?

Speaker 10 Like, if you're not running your own social media at some level, I don't know if you should be the candidate for 2028, right?

Speaker 10 Like, you just got to be able to talk to people like that's how people talk now like why would you outsource that to a 24 year old you know it's also a huge opportunity

Speaker 11 because it reaches if you do it well and if you're on all the platforms way more people than most interviews you will ever do right and you can just speak directly or do directly i know i share i share that hope with you All right.

Speaker 10 So this is where we have our agreement, obviously, as two comms people. We want good communicators

Speaker 10 to solve the problem. Not that Kamala is good in in certain ways, but she just like, that wasn't her strength, right? Like, she obviously wasn't running her own Twitter and in long-form interviews.

Speaker 10 I think she could have been better, frankly, if they'd let her get more reps. I don't think she was incapable of it, but for whatever reason, that wasn't her strongest suit.

Speaker 10 She was great in the debate. She was great in, you know, but that wasn't it.
And next time, I think you just need people that are stronger at that.

Speaker 11 Yeah, she was great in the debate. She was great at the convention.
She's also her background is more of like a law and order.

Speaker 11 I mean, you know, like she's like, I will defend like our institutions and our system. And it turns out that's not the message people are looking for.

Speaker 11 She's not as naturally, and this is not her fault. This is just like what we learn from the elector in terms of what they're looking for.

Speaker 11 She's not as naturally somebody who can be like, let me talk about your small business and like what you're having trouble with. And that turns out that is equality.

Speaker 11 At this moment, we'll see where we are in a couple of years that people are looking for.

Speaker 12 Here's something good on women's health and longevity, a new podcast on iHeart. Join us for groundbreaking conversations with renowned medical experts.

Speaker 12 They'll share the latest breakthroughs, the good news about women's health, and the simple steps women can take to help them live healthier and happier every day.

Speaker 12 Be sure to listen to our episode, Pelvic Power, Strengthening Your Weight to Better Bladder Health, where we dive into the unique physical, emotional, and social challenges associated with heavy bladder leaks.

Speaker 12 This episode provides supportive guidance for managing heavier leaks with expert tips on pelvic floor strength and product fit.

Speaker 12 Brought to you by Always Discreet, offering products that can support you in your daily life and providing the comfort and protection you need to feel secure.

Speaker 12 Found at Walgreens, the women's well-being destination, supporting every stage.

Speaker 12 Listen to hear something good on women's health and longevity on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

Speaker 2 Get Ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 5 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 2 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 3 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 8 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 1 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 5 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 7 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 10 All right, let's get to the ideological side of it. Let's get to our TIFF.
Jensaki was on, I don't know, was it Morning Joe?

Speaker 10 I don't know which one you're on. I forget when I finished live.

Speaker 11 This is as if you're not a frequent appearer on MSNBC. You're like, I'm not sure what the shows are called.

Speaker 10 I know what the shows are called. I didn't forget which one it was.
Okay, I just

Speaker 10 consumed it like normal americans on social media rather than watch i didn't watch you live uh which you know i obviously do for inside with gen sake

Speaker 10 on the other shows when you're a guest i

Speaker 11 you can't i can't you can't watch me all the time i hear you i try i try to catch you tim you know so and i appreciate that let's listen to what you have to say

Speaker 13 Democrats and people who are who voted for Harris and are scared about Trump should just be sober about and curious about is not just why did people move toward Trump, but why did Democrats and people who had been with the party for some time not come out and turn out for Kamala Harris and not turn out for the Democrats?

Speaker 13 There were many headwinds here. There is sexism.
There's racism. All of that is true.
But I also think there is a real question I hope people start looking at about who people are listening to.

Speaker 13 In my view, there was an over listening to and an over lifting up of people who left Trump, not people who left the Democratic Party.

Speaker 13 The people who left the the Democratic Party are the people who are going to win in the future.

Speaker 13 The people who left Trump, the never-Trumpers, who have important voices and have, that is not the winning coalition. And I think that is a takeaway.

Speaker 13 And the last thing I'll say, because I've been thinking about this a lot, is the part of that piece, the who you're listening to, is also this argument, you just touched on this, Mika, about fascism.

Speaker 13 Fascism and the threat of democracy is a huge issue in this country. It's one that should be talked about.
Journalists should talk about it. People should dig into it.

Speaker 13 It is not a good closing message to reach to the masses of the country. People don't relate to it.
It's not understandable. And I think that, I hope, is a lesson.

Speaker 10 All right. So some people on the left.

Speaker 10 like the kind of Bernieish left, were like, yes, queening you over this. We're like, yes,

Speaker 10 even Jen Saki gets it. No Liz Cheney anymore.
Get Liz Cheney out of here. And I don't really think that's what you were actually trying to say.

Speaker 10 So, before we argue about this, why don't you just kind of expand your remarks a little bit on what your point was?

Speaker 11 Can I just say, and I realize I've been working in this town for a long time and in politics, it still is hilarious to me that I'm like an institutionalist because I worked for Barack Obama, whoever he was like, that guy's got no chance.

Speaker 11 Like, it's like kind of here, we are. What I meant is this: I think hindsight's always 2020.
I don't think that the closing message of our democracy is under threat.

Speaker 11 And I think Liz Cheney is courageous and has done things I wish many other people would have done, right? And speaking out, I don't think that was the right closing message.

Speaker 11 I also think there was an over-reliance in cable, and I know I'm a part of that system, and podcasting and other places in prognosticating by people who had left Trump, right?

Speaker 11 This is what I said, right? As if they were predictors of where the totality of the electorate was and not enough

Speaker 11 discussing, engaging understanding of the people who were pissed off of the Democratic Party and had long been Democrats and were like, I'm not voting. I want nothing to do with this.

Speaker 11 Maybe I'm voting for Trump. Maybe I'm not voting at all.
And that was a huge blind spot that we're all guilty of, you know?

Speaker 11 I think the people who are never Trumpers, and I'm not just saying this because I guess you're one or you're one, I put you in a different category because you're like a political comms expert, too.

Speaker 10 Yeah, sure. I'm like the, I don't know.
I'm, I mean, I'm kind of like the prince of the Never Trumpers, but sure, whatever. You can, I can also, I wear multiple hats.

Speaker 11 Um, and you know that, like, my love for Sarah Longwell knows no bounds. So

Speaker 11 I think it's not like these aren't relevant voices, they are relevant voices. They are courageous people, way more than so many people who worked for Trump.

Speaker 11 It's that, is that the face and the message you are putting forward for the closing argument of your campaign?

Speaker 11 And should every element of progressive media be doing the same thing when there is a big blind spot for what we're missing?

Speaker 10 I like, actually, 100% agreed with you. And I thought it was so funny that I saw all of the lefties that were like, this means no more to Tim Miller and Liz Cheney.

Speaker 10 And it's just like, that's not exactly what Jen was saying.

Speaker 10 And I agree with this.

Speaker 10 And I think that in a lot of ways, it's funny. It's like part of the reason why Liz Cheney was there was because she volunteered.
And in politics, raising your hand is a big part of it.

Speaker 10 And frankly, like, sorry to some of our more progressive folks.

Speaker 10 Like, had a bunch of super progressive, you know, super people that are concerned about Gaza been also prominently raising their hand and be like, and by the way, I disagree with Kamala Harris on this one issue in Joe Biden, but it's so important that we have her.

Speaker 10 And I want to campaign with her. And I want to be there.
And I want to be about, and I want to root her on and cheer her on. I think the campaign would have welcomed that.

Speaker 11 They would have put that forward. I mean, the other.

Speaker 10 We were offering, you know, so that's part of politics is showing up.

Speaker 11 Yeah, it's true. I also think it doesn't mean that the risk of authoritarianism isn't an issue.
It is an issue. And like the future of our democracy, all issues.

Speaker 11 And like people in the media on podcasts, whatever your lien is should continue to talk about that.

Speaker 10 But also,

Speaker 11 that doesn't mean that should be the campaign closing message. And that's part of my point.

Speaker 10 I'm mixed on the campaign closing message thing. I think it was defensible because it kind of worked in 22.

Speaker 10 To me, I think that you're the insight that you have that is correct, that is, I think the most damning of all of us i'm not pointing any fingers but even like i tried to do this but it's hard is like i was nervous the whole campaign i was like part of these key democratic groups working class black and hispanic voters this isn't really so much the case with young voters people were engaging with that issue over gaza but but particularly working class voters i let's just say that

Speaker 10 I was like, when you brought up, I don't know, these numbers aren't looking that good, or I don't know, these focus groups don't sound that good.

Speaker 10 A lot of time, the pushback from like establishment Democratic circles was like, no, no, no, no, no, don't do, yeah, you don't, don't say that. That's not true.

Speaker 10 Like, voters of color will come through for us in the end. Like, at times, it almost implied it's like, it's almost racist to kind of say that they might not.
Like, focus more on white people.

Speaker 10 White people went for Trump. Again, you can.
figure out what happened in 1965 that might describe that. That's all fine to talk about.
But like, it was happening.

Speaker 10 Like, there was a key voting bloc that was leaving Democrats, and it felt like the discussion and analysis analysis of that was shut down rather than lifted up.

Speaker 10 And I think that's, I'm maybe putting words in your mouth, but I think that's kind of what you were trying to say. And I agree with that a lot, if it was.

Speaker 11 Yeah, it also wasn't a part of the discussion in most media either. Yeah.
Right. It was like,

Speaker 11 will people believe that we're headed toward authoritarianism and vote for tariffs or will they believe it doesn't matter? And that actually wasn't how it played out in any way.

Speaker 11 I mean, if you look at the exit polls, people were split in the country. And exit polls are imperfect.

Speaker 10 I'll just preface.

Speaker 11 We're split in the country and who was the bigger threat to democracy? It's like kind of,

Speaker 11 it is an important issue in our country. You're right, it worked in 2022.
But like, if we are in the moving forward phase of the game here, I do think the Bernie Brough-ish,

Speaker 10 or I don't even know if that's the right way to define it, but the view of some in the Democratic Party that like we've lost our thread here on being the party of the working class when working class voters aren't turning out to vote for us is to me the big glaring red flag one of them out of this election do you need a hug are you feeling upset with me or you feel okay no i'm not upset with you at all no so i'm saying i agree like it's great you know some people just want to hate the never trumpers because it's easy and it's nice or an easy punching bag and that's fine i don't mind i can take the punches like particularly lefty people and i'm like literally we were all like we just want to beat him like do whatever like literally if david bluff called me i wasn't like david you really need to put republicans in the cabinet and and support tax cuts.

Speaker 10 I'm like, I'm like, do whatever. Like, fucking whatever it took to be, like, that's what never Trumpers cared about.
So we didn't get what we wanted. And this is my point.
If you came to me

Speaker 10 a month before the election and said, hey, our strategy is we're going to add Nikki Haley voters to make up for the fact that we're going to shed black and Hispanic voters all across the country.

Speaker 10 I would have been like, no, don't do that.

Speaker 10 Don't do that, actually. Like, that's not a good trade.

Speaker 11 Right. It's not going to happen.

Speaker 11 But that did feel like it was at some point part of the view i don't know i'm not in the campaign it's not whatever everybody can kind of look forward my point is also like and this is not any fault of any never trumper but when you have people on who are have left trump right or they were longtime republicans and you're saying what is going to happen with the totality of the electorate like how do they know they're not in the electorate in like Nevada or in Georgia.

Speaker 11 And it's like they're not speaking. They've never lived in their Democratic base.
So I think that's also, to me, a specific lesson learned. And that's sort of on the media and all of us.

Speaker 12 Here's something good on women's health and longevity, a new podcast on iHeart. Join us for groundbreaking conversations with renowned medical experts.

Speaker 12 They'll share the latest breakthroughs, the good news about women's health, and the simple steps women can take to help them live healthier and happier every day.

Speaker 12 Be sure to listen to our episode, Pelvic Power, Strengthening Your Way to Better Bladder Health, where we dive into the unique physical, emotional, and social challenges associated with heavy bladder leaks.

Speaker 12 This episode provides supportive guidance for managing heavier leaks with expert tips on pelvic floor strength and product fit.

Speaker 12 Brought to you by Always Discreet, offering products that can support you in your daily life and providing the comfort and protection you need to feel secure.

Speaker 12 Found at Walgreens, the women's well-being destination, supporting every stage.

Speaker 12 Listen to hear something good on women's health and longevity on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your favorite shows

Speaker 5 get ready for malice a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall David DeCovney and Carice Van Houten Jack Whitehall plays Adam a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 3 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 7 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 1 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 5 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 7 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 10 If it's just acknowledged, baseline acknowledged, Democrats are not doing as well as working class voters. There's a theory of the case out there that's like, need a more populist economic message.

Speaker 10 There's a theory of the case out there that's like you need to compromise more on cultural issues.

Speaker 10 There's a theory of the case that's like, you just got to go on more bro podcasts and be more bro-y and talk more normal.

Speaker 10 Maybe there's door number four, which is you just let Trump implode and people come back to you. You don't have to do anything.

Speaker 10 Do you have a view on which of those doors you think is the most likely for success at this point?

Speaker 11 I mean, and that's some combo. Look, let me just talk about the cultural issues, though, because you mentioned 2004.

Speaker 11 And like one of the lessons from 2004 that I think was an overwrought wrong one from Democrats was

Speaker 11 we can't talk about gay marriage ever and nobody can be for it because that's how Bush won the election, right?

Speaker 11 That was the lesson. And right now you have people coming out and saying, we can never speak of trans kids in any positive fashion.
And you're like, wait a second.

Speaker 11 First of all, there was an ad that was run that was effective

Speaker 11 about Kamala Harris's answer to an ACLU questionnaire and her answer when she for like a couple of months in 2019 about supporting the funding paying for gender-affirming care for undocumented immigrants in prison, right?

Speaker 10 In prison.

Speaker 11 First of all, I don't know who supports that. Why would most people support that? So let's just be clear about that.

Speaker 11 That doesn't mean that you can't say, you know what, there are kids out there who are struggling through mental health issues, who were born in a body they don't feel like like is their own and we can be humane and support that as a society I've also seen and because I went after him the other bit I can just say this Seth Moulton who I know and he is a good member in many ways but he has been pulled into the right wingosphere theory like every community across the country has trans girls who are beating up girls who were born girls and like all of these things.

Speaker 11 This is not an issue across the country. Of all of these states, so many states have passed these laws that like ban trans youth in sports.
You know what?

Speaker 11 In a lot of these states, they don't have a single example. They have zero, they have one, they have two.

Speaker 11 So the other risk here is being so pulled into trying to be contrarian that you're not looking at the facts of the issue and if it's an actual issue. And so that's also driving me crazy.

Speaker 10 I agree with all that.

Speaker 10 On the other hand, though, if the view is just like, if there's a Democrat that says, I don't think that biological males who have transitioned should be playing in girls' sports, I think it's a complicated issue.

Speaker 10 I agree with you. It's not that like there are very few examples of it, and it's way over-indexed in the culture.
But like, if a Democrat has that view, like, shouldn't you just let them have it?

Speaker 10 Like, should do they really need to be protested?

Speaker 11 No, I don't think people should be protesting people. But I also think people who they get pulled into it, like, I'm going to real talk you.

Speaker 11 This is something we should say that, like, we are just all, because I am a father of girls. And, like, I have a daughter, too.
This is not a universal issue. So, like, let's call out their bullshit.

Speaker 11 That's what I'm saying, right? It's like

Speaker 11 there's, there's a little bit of like falling prey to the, like, what some of the right-wing asphere is saying. Check the facts, read the fine print.

Speaker 11 I, I, I think there are certain issues Democrats should be more outspoken about, including like, I'm not sure who is for the federal funding of gender-affirming care in prison. I, like, why, right?

Speaker 10 But, but there are, let's just probably move that one to the side. This Those two prisoners, God love them.

Speaker 11 But that was an ad, right?

Speaker 11 But there are a range of issues that I think there's a risk here of like people losing some humanity in order to feel like they're speaking out against woke, whatever the heck that means.

Speaker 10 All right. On that topic, in the news last night, Nancy Mace.

Speaker 10 formerly moderate congresswoman from South Carolina, sent about 17 to, I guess it's probably happening while we're, while we're going on live here.

Speaker 10 So I think Nancy Mace has sent like, I don't know, two dozen or so tweets by now about how she does not want Sarah McBride, the new Democratic transgender member from Delaware, to be in the women's bathroom in Congress.

Speaker 10 She's passing a bill. She's going to the parliamentarian.

Speaker 10 Marjorie Taylor Greene has said that she will get into a physical altercation with Sarah McBride if she dares enter the women's bathroom. Thoughts?

Speaker 11 Get a life, Nancy Mace and Marjorie Taylor Green. I mean, like,

Speaker 11 this is the issue of the nation right now is like another member of Congress using the same restroom. Wait till they hear there are unisex bathrooms in some restaurants.

Speaker 11 It's going to blow their freaking minds.

Speaker 10 I'm not a girl. Actually, also, I just have a little follow-up question with you.
Do you see each other's genitalia in the women's restrooms very often? Like as two adult women, do you see each other?

Speaker 11 I don't know what they're doing in the restrooms, but most people do not. No, you go in a stall.

Speaker 11 Why is this the issue in this moment in our country that Nancy Mace is trying to pass a bill on?

Speaker 11 That is a baseline question.

Speaker 11 I know why politically she's trying to get her MAGA creds.

Speaker 10 Feels mean and like an overreach to me. I don't know.

Speaker 10 I don't really want my daughter to be in a bathroom with Marjorie Taylor Green, but I'm not like going to the government to have them create any rules about it.

Speaker 10 You know, sometimes in a society, you just have to just be a person in a society, you know? Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 11 I think some members have bathrooms in their offices, don't they?

Speaker 10 Yeah. Some.
This doesn't feel like a real problem.

Speaker 11 It feels like not a real thing. I need somebody to investigate that question.
I should know this. I've worked on the hill.

Speaker 10 I don't remember.

Speaker 10 As evidenced by all the tweets she sent about it. All right, everyone's getting this at the very end.
It's been an interesting cabinet choices from Donald Trump.

Speaker 11 That's a diplomatic way of describing it.

Speaker 10 Yeah. I'm wondering which cabinet choice is the most alarming to you, Jen Saki.

Speaker 11 Well, I feel like there's a lot of Matt Gates' alarm. So I'm not going to pile on to that because that's obvious.
I do think that Tulsi Gabbard is an undervalued alarmist, alarming one.

Speaker 11 And I talked to Abigail Spanberger about this last night and what she said stuck with me. I mean, she's like a former undercover CIA analyst person.
I'm probably butchering her amazing background.

Speaker 11 Person in DNI. can do things that nobody will ever see in the public, including take Russian propaganda and put it in the PDB, right?

Speaker 11 They can

Speaker 11 share intel from our allies and partners who we rely on for information in order to keep our own country safe and our men and women serving overseas safe and put it into hands it shouldn't be in.

Speaker 11 She is an apologist for Assad, a person who has killed thousands of people with chemical weapons, and for Vladimir Putin, a person who hacked our own elections and has also invaded a sovereign country.

Speaker 11 And she is somehow the nominee to oversee the intelligence system in our country. It sounds weedy, but like, hey, we got to be weedy sometimes.

Speaker 11 And that one, I think, is an undervalued, alarming nomination.

Speaker 10 Jen Saki, this is a great place to end because I have wonderful news for you.

Speaker 10 Being most alarmed about Tulsi Gabbard and name-checking Abigail Spanberger is the most never Trumpy thing that you could have possibly done. You are welcome here.

Speaker 10 These are your people, whether you like it or not.

Speaker 10 We are worried about Tulsi, and we love Abigail.

Speaker 11 Okay, first of all, she's running for governor of Virginia, where I live, but also, I also have said, which is true, the Democratic Party message is a little geared toward people like me, college-educated coastal elite white people.

Speaker 11 That's also true. I'm not a never-Trumper.
I worked in Democratic politics for 20 years, but it can't be geared toward me, you know?

Speaker 10 Amen. It's all good.
You know, there were other people trying to divide us, Jen. It was never going to happen.
Okay. It was never going to happen.
We're not going to let any outside forces divide us.

Speaker 10 In these troubling times, we have to stick together. All right.

Speaker 11 Our message is, don't speak to us. We'll be fine.

Speaker 10 Yeah. We're with you.
Speak to others. Yeah.
Go get some new people. All right.

Speaker 10 You got us. It's right in the name, actually.
Never Trump. So you don't need to pander to us.

Speaker 10 Go get some other people. Anyway, Jen Saki, everybody, I'll stick around.

Speaker 10 I've got some thoughts on Favorite of the Pod, Jared Polis. Many people have been wondering what I think about that.
I'm going to share it with you guys next. I appreciate Jensaki so much.

Speaker 11 Can't wait to hear your Jared Polis' thoughts.

Speaker 10 All right, y'all. So, Jared Polis, favorite of the pod, sent out a few tweets that have people kind of pissed.
They're pretty long, so I'll put them in the show notes.

Speaker 10 But in short, he was quasi-endorsing RFK for HHS secretary.

Speaker 10 And in doing so, he cited RFK's support for lowering drug costs, taking on big pharma, opposing pesticides, shaking up the FDA, promoting childhood nutrition as reasons to be excited about

Speaker 10 his potential role running HHS. He also acknowledged disagreement on vaccines in the tweets.

Speaker 10 As a prominent Polis stan, my inbox and mentions flooded, as you might imagine, with demands that I either find out what the hell is going on with Jared or that I denounce his harmful views.

Speaker 10 And clearly, anybody who listens to me knows that I do very much disagree with him on the matter of RFK. The guy is not my cup of tea.
Think he's a kook. think he's dangerous.

Speaker 10 I've invited Jared on the pod to discuss. I'm sure we'll do it soon.

Speaker 10 But while we disagree on the merits of having a brainwormed Secretary of Health and Human Services, politically speaking, I do wonder if Governor Polis is doing something that we should at least listen to.

Speaker 10 So stick with me for a second.

Speaker 10 Rather than jumping down his throat with burn the witch, as soon as he puts something out you don't like, maybe there's a more healthy way to engage with people within the anti-Trump coalition who have heterodox views on various issues.

Speaker 10 And maybe there's some lessons that could be learned from a politician who is succeeding in blue, Colorado, while Dems in many other blue states and purple states and red states have shit the bet.

Speaker 10 Because here's a rude awakening for everybody. If you look at the favorable, unfavorable ratings, RFK is maybe the most popular, active politician in America.

Speaker 10 He is 46% favorable and 41% unfave in a poll I saw this week. And many of the people who like RFK were not too long ago reliable Democrats.

Speaker 10 Is the plan for the party to do everything possible to repulse anyone who is drawn to anti-establishment views? Because that feels like a loser to me.

Speaker 10 I don't see a ton of evidence that there's a big majority in this country for norms-abiding, establishment-loving, protectors of the status quo. As much as I wish we did,

Speaker 10 let's just be practical here.

Speaker 10 If Democrats are going to cast out the hippie-ish libertarian weirdos and give them to the Republicans, and they're also going to shed support with working-class black and Latino men, and they're also going to protest people like Seth Moulton for simply sharing Martina Navartalova's view about where the line should come when dealing with trans women and women's sports, and the plan is to make up for all those losses by bringing in a handful of college-educated Republicans who don't like the culture war.

Speaker 10 That's a losing trade.

Speaker 10 Again, I wish this weren't the case. If a Chris Koons, Adam Kinzinger, establishmentarian unity ticket could save the country, I would be its biggest supporter.

Speaker 10 But if wishes were fishes,

Speaker 10 fuck, I don't remember how that saying goes, but if wishes were fishes, Donald Trump wouldn't be the fucking president. I'll tell you that much.

Speaker 10 So maybe rather than witch-burning, Democratic politicians should be more attuned to finding areas of common ground with people who agree with them on a lot of stuff, but also have some kooky views.

Speaker 10 It's a little crazy to me that I'm the one saying this because again, I find RFK to be ridiculous across every metric. I was never a leftist anti-vax hippie.
I'm not into cooking ghee or beef tallow.

Speaker 10 I have not read Good Energy by Dr. Casey Means.
I don't buy non-GMO organic foods for my child. She had mac and cheese for dinner last night.

Speaker 10 I don't follow Maha Fitness Influencer gurus on the internet. But do you know who does? Lots of people that used to vote for Democrats, but have left the party.

Speaker 10 So, in conclusion, Jared Polis, totally wrong to suggest RFK should be confirmed as Secretary of HHS. I look forward to hashing that out with him soon.

Speaker 10 But at the same time, Jared Polis is right to be trying to figure out how to appeal to people who have lots of left-wing views but don't conform to liberal right speak on every single thing and even have a few nutty theories.

Speaker 10 And right now, I'm open to any ideas that will dislodge people from Trump's con and bring them back towards the light.

Speaker 10 Focusing on areas of agreement over disagreement, I don't think is the worst first step. We'll see y'all tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark podcast.
Peace.

Speaker 10 I don't wanna tiptoe, but I don't wanna hide.

Speaker 10 But I don't wanna feed this monstrous fire.

Speaker 10 Just wanna let this story die,

Speaker 10 And I'll be alright.

Speaker 10 We can't be friends,

Speaker 10 but I'd like to just be ten.

Speaker 10 You cling to your paper

Speaker 10 and pins. Wait until you like me again.

Speaker 10 Wait for your love,

Speaker 10 my love.

Speaker 10 I'll wait for your love.

Speaker 10 Me and my truth, we sit in silence.

Speaker 10 Mmm,

Speaker 10 baby girl, it's just me and you.

Speaker 10 Cause I don't wanna hurt you, but I don't wanna bite my tongue. Yeah, I think I'd rather die.

Speaker 10 You got me misunderstood, but at least I look this good.

Speaker 10 We can't be friends,

Speaker 10 but I'd like to just repeat.

Speaker 10 You cling to your papers

Speaker 10 and pens.

Speaker 10 Wait until you like me again.

Speaker 10 Wait for your love.

Speaker 10 Wait for your love.

Speaker 10 I wait for your love.

Speaker 10 The Bullard Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 10 This is Martha Stewart from the Martha Stewart podcast. Hi, darlings.
I have a little seasonal secret to share. It's the new Kahlua Duncan Caramel Swirl.

Speaker 10 Kahlua, the beloved coffee liqueur, and Duncan, the beloved coffee destination, paired up to create a treat that is perfect for the holidays. So, go ahead, treat yourself.
Cheers, my dears.

Speaker 14 Must be 21 or older to purchase. Drink responsibly.
Kahlua Caramel Swirl Cream Liqueur, 16% Alcohol by Volume, 32 Proof. Copyright 2025 imported by the Kahlua Company, New York, New York.

Speaker 14 Duncan trademarks owned by DDIP Holder LLC, used under license. Copyright 2025, DDIP Holder LLC.

Speaker 10 What does Zinn really give you? Not just smoke-free nicotine satisfaction, but also real freedom to do more of what you love, when and where you want to do it. Why bring Zinn along for the ride?

Speaker 10 Because America's number one nicotine pouch opens up all the possibilities of right now. With Zinn, you don't just find freedom, you keep finding it.
Find your Zinn. Learn more at zinn.com.

Speaker 10 Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.