Live from Philadelphia (Again)

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Speaker 10 Hello and welcome to the Bullworld Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
My guest today, you might have heard of him, George Conway. Hi.
Claudia Conway's father. Yeah.

Speaker 10 Among other things. It's her birthday today, by the way.
Happy birthday, Claudia.

Speaker 10 I've been trying to hire her. I've been trying to hire her every time you get on.
All right. George, you sent so many good tweets, but you sent one good one that I want to read here.
That's one.

Speaker 10 Because it's so good.

Speaker 10 You called Donald Trump stupid, as well as being ill-tempered, a despicable human being. No, and I didn't do that.
And a narcissist. I would never say that.
That was not a good idea.

Speaker 10 That was Mitch McConnell. Oh, that was Mitch McConnell.
Yeah. That's interesting.

Speaker 10 Mitch McConnell, yeah. The producer gave me the wrong notes.
Yeah, remember how he voted to remove the guy and make sure he never became president? Oh, no, he didn't do that. No.

Speaker 10 But that's what he felt about the guy. Yeah, Mitch McConnell was out today today with a statement about this.
He said, well, J.D. Vance said worse.
Yeah, no, that's right. I swear to God, that was.

Speaker 10 Yeah, so what happened was this AP guy Tackett wrote a bio of McConnell, and

Speaker 10 McConnell's quoted as saying all these things. He doesn't deny saying them, and he just says, well, other people have said worse.

Speaker 10 And I thought, I came up with the idea that maybe what they should do, the Harris campaign for the next...

Speaker 10 I don't know, we could have October Madness where we take all the quotes about things that people have said about Trump, like Tillerson, he's a moron.

Speaker 10 And, you know, we could have like, you know, playoffs to see who had the best vote about Trump. I mean, you got so many people.

Speaker 10 You've got Kelly, you got Mattis, you've got, you know, you've got so many people who've said so many great and accurate things about Donald Trump, and then they're going to vote for him, but I don't know.

Speaker 10 You know, the other thing that he said, I want to get to Mattis in a second.

Speaker 10 You know, the other thing that McConnell said that just had my blood boiling in this book didn't get quite, it didn't get quite as much attention as Despicable Human Being, because that's a pretty good quote.

Speaker 10 I mean, it's an insult to despicable human human beings, but yeah. Yeah, that's true.
He was like, he was saying to a friend, or I guess it's his self-notes. I guess he has a voice memo.

Speaker 10 He thinks very highly of himself. He's like, he's got a memoir, a life memoir that he voice memo.
That must be the most scintillating thing to listen to. I know.
He's put those to build.

Speaker 10 I mean, Taylor Swift look out. Yeah, play those and you're going to sleep.
And he said that it was clear. that there were a bunch of things that Donald Trump did that were indictable.

Speaker 10 And so he's excited to see what Merrick Garland was going to do. And I'm a little, that confuses me a little bit because he voted against convicting him for the things that he thought were indictable.

Speaker 10 I don't understand how that works. Yeah, I mean, that's why he gave this weird, but not, had some great aspects to it, speech right after the impeachment.

Speaker 10 Immediately after the impeachment trial was gaveled to a close, he took the floor and he basically called Donald Trump a criminal. He says, there is a criminal law.
That's the, his position was

Speaker 10 because he was no longer president,

Speaker 10 he could no longer be convicted, which made no sense because the Constitution doesn't just say

Speaker 10 that removal is a sanction for a conviction, but also barring from federal office. And he was impeached as president while he was president.

Speaker 10 And so that position really made no sense, but it was an excuse

Speaker 10 for him and his his colleagues basically not to take any responsibility for it. They didn't want to be the ones who had the fingerprints on removing Trump from public life, and they were cowards.

Speaker 10 But they thought, you know, obviously he's going to go away because that's what all these malignant narcissists through history do, right?

Speaker 10 Here we are in Pennsylvania. What a catastrophic lack of judgment.

Speaker 10 You know, I'm not a fancy lawyer like you, but that argument never made a lot of sense to me because it's like, so if you're immune from everything that happens on your way out of office, that means you kind of get a free day of crime on your last

Speaker 10 inauguration day. You can just start gatting people if you're the president.

Speaker 10 It's 24-7 now. Yeah, for okay, got it.
So it's no longer one day of crime

Speaker 10 on your day out.

Speaker 10 That's pretty dark. Okay.
Well, while we're in darkness, I had Bob Woodward on the pod this morning for people here live yesterday, for people listening. He was great, yeah.

Speaker 10 No, he did kind of, he did tell me one thing that kind of

Speaker 10 got annoyed me a little bit. But, you know, I've a lot of respect for.
You're easily annoyed, though. I am.

Speaker 10 I have a lot of respect for Bob Woodward, so I didn't I didn't want to you know derail the podcast with my own issues, but he was like, Yeah, I was asking him.

Speaker 10 I said, oh, you had this great reveal where Mark Billy went up to you at a party, and and he said, Donald Trump's a fascist. He's the most dangerous thing to the country.

Speaker 10 It's a very important thing to say. I would have maybe said it, I don't know, publicly instead of just to Bob Woodward at a party, but that's just me.

Speaker 10 And then I said, I noticed you mentioned in the book that Jim Mannis was also at the party, so I'm wondering what he said to you. And Bob said, Well,

Speaker 10 he didn't say anything to me then, but he emailed me three days ago telling me that everything that is in the book is right.

Speaker 10 And I was like, Why is he emailing you? Does he not have access to Zoom? Is that FaceTime? Does he not have a phone? I'm sure Nicole Wallace would have him on TV if he wants to.

Speaker 10 We can send Barry to his house or tape a video. He's got a 400 North Cap and MSNBC, they put him right on if he, you know, if he was going to say that.

Speaker 10 You know,

Speaker 10 there's a lot of access. Yeah.
What's happening? Well, what's happening with that, and I had this discussion with

Speaker 10 another former flag officer, U.S. Army flag officer, the other day.

Speaker 10 And they have this weird belief

Speaker 10 that

Speaker 10 former generals, retired generals should not express political opinions publicly.

Speaker 10 Just in emails and at parties. Right, just in emails and at cocktail parties and journalists.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 10 Got it.

Speaker 10 And I think part of the logic is, well, they're still technically commissioned because they're getting pensions and we don't want to.

Speaker 10 And, you know, it's like nobody out there is going to make that distinction.

Speaker 10 And the other point about it is the idea that military officers in uniform should stay out of politics and not take political.

Speaker 10 Let's leave apart all the presidents we've had who were generals and the fact that

Speaker 10 fucking McClellan ran for president against Lincoln in the middle of the Civil War. Let's put all that history aside.

Speaker 10 And that he was Secretary of Defense. Yeah.

Speaker 10 Yeah, and

Speaker 10 Mattis was Secretary of Defense. Kelly

Speaker 10 was chief of staff. Both political appointees.

Speaker 10 It doesn't make sense because the purpose of that stricture,

Speaker 10 that ethical stricture, and maybe there's something in the UCMJ about it,

Speaker 10 is

Speaker 10 to

Speaker 10 make sure that there is civilian constitutional control over the military.

Speaker 10 And here we're talking about a guy they know and they think is a fascist and they are criticizing privately and in emails and at cocktail parties because they think he would use the military unconstitutionally to defeat his domestic enemies.

Speaker 10 I mean, he says that. They know that.
And these guys are all, I mean, the two groups of people who best understood what Trump was going to become

Speaker 10 were. Never Trump podcast hosts.

Speaker 10 No, the two big groups were

Speaker 10 psychiatrists and psychologists, mental health professionals, because

Speaker 10 they saw the personality disorders. I mean, you just, I mean, I like to wave these things around.
You just check the boxes. The guy, you know, you only have to have three out of seven

Speaker 10 of the

Speaker 10 lunch associopathy, and he's like, seven for seven. He's like, you know.

Speaker 10 And the other group were people whose professions depended upon a study and knowledge of history, which would include history professors, political science professors, comparative government professors, diplomats, and military types.

Speaker 10 And they saw this first. That's why in

Speaker 10 2016, we saw these long lists of bipartisan former diplomats and State Department officials saying this guy is dangerous because they saw the personality type. There was actually a third group.

Speaker 10 The third group were abused spouses. I'm not joking.
They saw it like this guy, he's like my ex-husband, and he's bad news. And he's like worse than that.
Milani hasn't got that message yet.

Speaker 10 But that's the whole thing about it: these guys are in,

Speaker 10 they know better,

Speaker 10 and they are in a position to say it. And if they care about keeping the military out of politics, they need to say something to keep this man out of the White House, because that's basically

Speaker 10 basically this guy, yeah, he wants civilian control over the military, but he wants that civilian to be him and for his own purposes only and not for those of

Speaker 10 the United States of America, all of us, and its Constitution.

Speaker 10 Indeed. I want to get one other thing of...
Did I say too much of her? No, no, it's really great. Keep going.
I'll let you know. I got a hook right back here if you start going a little too long.

Speaker 10 I listened to that podcast you do with Sarah Longwell. And sometimes you just jump in.
Yeah, sometimes you have to

Speaker 10 hit the button. Like, Sarah, is Sarah still there? I know.
We get all these letters. You talk over Sarah too much.

Speaker 10 But that's because she asked me questions. But I have a legal question for you right now that's related to the Woodward book.

Speaker 10 The other thing that we've learned is that apparently,

Speaker 10 allegedly at least, he's having secret calls with Vladimir Putin up to seven. We don't exactly know.
Susan Rice got very mad at me when I was like, Would we know if that was happening?

Speaker 10 And she was like, I'm not allowed to say it. And I was like, but really, would we know? And she's like, next question, Tim.
I was like, yes, ma'am.

Speaker 10 But anyway, all the born movies, and they have listened to it. They know, right? They would know.

Speaker 10 Okay, so assuming that's happening, there are some smart people out there, including Susan Rice, who are like, this is a violation of the Logan Act. And that kind of seems like a fake act to me.

Speaker 10 So So is that true? Is that a violation of the Logan Act?

Speaker 10 Can we jail him over this? It depends on what he's saying. If he's purporting to represent what the United States of America should be doing and would be doing under a Trump administration,

Speaker 10 I think that would.

Speaker 10 Well, maybe they're talking about

Speaker 10 hotel retro on the Black Sea and maybe even a building project on the Black Sea. I don't know.
Maybe building a big wall,

Speaker 10 you know, I don't know.

Speaker 10 So I don't

Speaker 10 know. No, I mean, yeah, you have to wonder.
And I, you know, one of these days,

Speaker 10 and we're all going to be dead, but

Speaker 10 like it'll be 60 or 70 years from now. Maybe you have kids who will get to see this.
All the archives of these intelligence agencies throughout the world today are going to open up, and

Speaker 10 somebody's going to get to see what they thought of Donald Trump and how they thought they were manipulating him and could try to manipulate him.

Speaker 10 And the transcripts of the calls are going to be so stupid. Like people in the future are going to be like, why did they speak at a kindergarten level in 2024?

Speaker 10 Could you imagine being the Russian translator trying to do.

Speaker 10 Very good. Very strongly.
I very strongly want Vladimir Putin to do nice things for me.

Speaker 10 All right, what else do we got for you?

Speaker 10 The psychopact that you're doing, talk to us about that. Anti-psychopath, psychopath pack.

Speaker 10 You've been running some ads. You've been running.
Well, explain the pack, and then I want to talk about the ads.

Speaker 10 Look, I've been on this kick for five,

Speaker 10 six years now about basically the way you understand Donald Trump, and he becomes eminently predictable in a lot of ways,

Speaker 10 is by understanding the severe,

Speaker 10 easily clearly defined personality disorders that he has that are listed. And I'm no expert, I I was no expert in psychology.

Speaker 10 Now the psyches, the shrinks tell me, yo, you explain it better than we do.

Speaker 10 Is that one of the signs of narcissistic personality disorder?

Speaker 10 No one has explained narcissistic personality order better than me.

Speaker 10 Many people tell me this.

Speaker 10 Many people.

Speaker 10 Trump has seven out of seven. George only has four.
I've got three. Okay.

Speaker 10 So,

Speaker 10 you know, because I had no freaking clue about this.

Speaker 10 And I'm wondering,

Speaker 10 I was offered the job of head of the civil division of the United States Department of Justice to become an assistant attorney general.

Speaker 10 And then I'm watching this shit show as it proceeds in early 2017. I actually was going over to the Justice Department to help pick the people who are going to work for me.

Speaker 10 And then I realized, I can't do this.

Speaker 10 Particularly after the appointment of the special counsel by Rod Rosenstein Mueller, I thought, like, okay,

Speaker 10 I'm going to join a department that this guy is going to be at war with for two years. And I decided not to do it.
But

Speaker 10 I kept puzzling about it.

Speaker 10 How, what the fuck is wrong with this guy?

Speaker 10 And I was reading and I'd read and I'd think. And finally, I came across an article in Of All Places Rolling Stone.

Speaker 10 And a very good writer named Alex Morris.

Speaker 10 She's great. She's great.
She basically said, the title of the article was, Does Donald Trump have narcissistic personality disorder? And I'm reading like, what's that?

Speaker 10 And it has nine criteria, and she went through the criteria, and it's like,

Speaker 10 oh,

Speaker 10 that's it. He only cares about himself.
He has no empathy. And, you know, all these things,

Speaker 10 he likes to brag falsely about his imagined achievements. I mean, you're just check, check, check, check, check, check, check.
And then I said, this is the key to understanding the guy.

Speaker 10 And so I started reading more, and then I saw, wait a minute, he's also a sociopath. He lies,

Speaker 10 uses aliases. Remember how he used to call up the media in New York? Baron.
Johnny Miller. Baron, Johnny Miller.
Did he name his kid after his alias? Yeah, he has.

Speaker 10 That's really fucking weird.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 10 And, you know, and he has has absolutely no remorse.

Speaker 10 The only time he ever expressed anything approaching remorse was when he said that, you know, he sort of apologized for the Billy Bush tape and what he said on there. And then two months later,

Speaker 10 after the election was over, he was saying, he literally told the New York Times that the, or he was telling the United States senators that the tape was fake.

Speaker 10 Okay, I mean, so this guy just checks all the boxes. And it occurred to me as a lawyer,

Speaker 10 I kind of combined that with my understanding of

Speaker 10 the obligations of a president under Article II, which is the founders viewed

Speaker 10 the presidency as a fiduciary position. In the same, you know, fiduciaries, I litigated that.
I was a corporate lawyer.

Speaker 10 We did lots of litigation of corporate law in Delaware, and it's all about all its issue is fiduciary duties.

Speaker 10 You have, as a CEO, you have an obligation to work into the best interest of the country, not just line your pockets. Oh, they do both.
I mean, not in the best interest of the company.

Speaker 10 And this was the ultimate fiduciary position. And the question is: if someone who cares only about themselves and only

Speaker 10 uses everyone else and all the instruments of power around him to benefit himself has no empathy, has no remorse, Morris is incapable of telling you, how could that person possibly be a fiduciary?

Speaker 10 And the answer is he couldn't. So I wrote this long 11,000-word article that was published like five years ago in like two weeks.

Speaker 10 And, you know, I've been on that kick ever since because

Speaker 10 that's the way that Donald Trump makes sense only if you look at him through that prism. And I think that from.
And the other point is that the people who have that. We'll get to me in a minute.

Speaker 10 Don't worry.

Speaker 10 I'm not a test. I talk a lot.
Yeah, yeah, you talk a lot.

Speaker 10 I'll take another bourbon and coke, though, when anybody gets a chance. No rush.

Speaker 10 The people who, you know, the concept of this, of narcissistic sociopathy, which is also described in some

Speaker 10 malignant narcissism, and it's very closely related. I mean, that was a concept developed by a psychologist named Eric Fromm.

Speaker 10 whose family escaped Germany just before the onset of World War II, and he wanted to try to explain the minds of Hitler's and Stalins and all of these people. And it explains authoritarians.

Speaker 10 It explains that these personality characteristics are generally shared by authoritarians and cult leaders. And here we are.

Speaker 10 It's important to bring in the Nazis, so I'm glad you added

Speaker 10 that last point.

Speaker 10 As we think about this fifth race, but on to the psychopath thing, because I want to get to the ads.

Speaker 10 I think the important political insight that was bred out of all that five years later is how to bait him. And some of that is in the ads that you've been playing that I want to get to in one second.

Speaker 10 But first, the vice president's learned a little something about this. And just today, just a couple hours ago in Wisconsin, she had some protesters.

Speaker 10 And there was a very funny exchange that we're going to listen to now.

Speaker 11 Oh, you guys are at the wrong rally.

Speaker 10 No, I think you meant to go to the smaller one down the street.

Speaker 10 That was amazing. So amazing.

Speaker 10 It was so amazing.

Speaker 10 What she said is, I think that you guys should be at the smaller rally down the street.

Speaker 10 And the crowd really enjoyed that.

Speaker 10 And she used it to very good effect at the debate in a way that, I frankly none of us none of the 15 Trump primary opponents did in 16 that Hillary didn't and that Biden didn't Biden did some other things well but I she's used kind of the insights from combating a narcissism better than I think any of his other opponents don't you agree I absolutely agree with that and and and that's some again that's part of the drums the drums are as we I've been beating for so long and last year I mean at a little conference held by a competitor magazine.

Speaker 10 Oh, we don't have any competitors. It's all good.
It's all love. No, I've been been doing it.

Speaker 10 Unless they're for Trump. Are they for Trump? No, no, no.
As long as they're not for Trump, it's all good. It was an anti-Trump.
Someone was basically saying, you got to needle the guy.

Speaker 10 Because he's like, you know, you remember the squirrel, the dogs in the movie Up? And whenever you'd say, whenever a character would say squirrel, they'd lose their shit.

Speaker 10 And they'd become completely dragged. That's Donald Trump when it comes to any form of criticism.

Speaker 10 And that's why, you know, we saw just like two weeks ago, he says, people are saying I fell into a trap at the debate. There was no trap.
I didn't fall in a trap.

Speaker 10 He's falling right into the trap again.

Speaker 10 So, you know, once he hears a criticism, particularly if it is something, I mean, narcissists are very insecure. Okay, they

Speaker 10 pretend to be the boldest and most courageous and the strongest and the most imperturbable people in the world, but they are driven by deep insecurity.

Speaker 10 And he has deep insecurity about a lot of things.

Speaker 10 This is one.

Speaker 10 He's insecure about his, you know, whether he's...

Speaker 10 That's another one. There's nothing you can say about that.
He's insecure about so many things.

Speaker 10 And if you keep poking him about it, He will

Speaker 10 talk about that when he should be talking about the things that I am sure the Susie Wiles and all these people are telling him to talk about, you have to talk about immigration, you have to talk about economy, you have to talk about this.

Speaker 10 He can't help himself.

Speaker 10 And that was, you know, the four objects of psychopath were: one, to point out the personality disorders that Trump has, two, is to show why they're dangerous to the country.

Speaker 10 Three is to get the media to talk about it, which they're finally a little bit starting to do.

Speaker 10 And the fourth was to trigger him into displaying these characteristics. What I'm so grateful for now is the Democrats

Speaker 10 figured some of this out. And that's what they did.
You know, as soon as you know, as soon as they switched candidates, you saw some of that needling. And they're ramping it up again.

Speaker 10 I think they did it for a while just before the convention and after. It worked.
And now they're bringing it up again.

Speaker 10 And we've seen his behavior lately. It is getting worse because these people generally, narcissistic sociopaths, only get

Speaker 10 worse.

Speaker 10 Okay?

Speaker 10 And as the more that they face adversity and criticism, they become more detached from reality. And we saw that with the swaying back and forth.

Speaker 10 We saw it when he's saying that all of Kamala's crowds that first week when she became the presumptive nominee, they were all AI,

Speaker 10 cats, dogs. You know, he is saying crazy shit by the hour.

Speaker 10 And I think that the Harris campaign is going back to that attack, and I hope they do for the last couple of weeks of the campaign, because she's, at least twice, I've heard her say, he is increasingly unstable and unhinged.

Speaker 10 And I think that should be, I mean, I think you'll need a little positive.

Speaker 10 You know, you have to finish a campaign with a little positive note, which I think we saw a little of that yesterday.

Speaker 10 I thought that was just, I mean, I don't know if you saw the event up in Washington Crossing where she really was putting forth a vision.

Speaker 10 You know, we're not going to be a unified country in the sense that we're all going to be agreeing on everything, but we agree that we live in a democracy where we need to work together, we need to compromise, we need to discuss things rationally, and we need to support

Speaker 10 whoever wins an election.

Speaker 10 And, you know, that's her positive message. She's going to be president for all the people.
But leading up to the next two weeks, I think they really ought to hit hard. This is cuckoo.
Yeah, cookie

Speaker 10 losing his marbles. All right, last topic.
You got a couple to begin with. I like the, well, are people familiar with these names? Natasha, Stoinoff, Amy Doris, Jessica Leeds.
Do we know their names?

Speaker 10 Yeah, not enough people.

Speaker 10 Why don't everybody give them a round of applause? They're in George's recent ads. And E.
Gene. And E.
Gene Carroll. Everybody's going to know E.
Gene, so I was going to make my point.

Speaker 10 I want to play one of those ads now.

Speaker 11 My name is Amy Dorris. In 1997, I attended the U.S.
Open. We went to Donald Trump's VIP box.
I went into the bathroom. When I came out, Trump was standing there.

Speaker 11 He was not waiting to go to the bathroom. He was waiting for me.
He kind of grabbed me and tried to kiss me. He was touching me all over my body.
I pushed him away. I could not move.

Speaker 11 He just shoved his tongue in my mouth, started kissing me. It was just, it was so forceful.
It was not pleasant. It was not welcomed.
It was not consensual.

Speaker 11 I literally used my teeth to push his tongue out of my mouth. It was violating and it was traumatic.
I thought it was my fault.

Speaker 11 Seeing the Access Hollywood video made me realize that Donald Trump is a serial sexual predator. He says he's going to protect women.
He harms women. He has no respect for women.

Speaker 11 It is a danger to our society to put this man back in the White House. It's like,

Speaker 11 when will this stop?

Speaker 9 Anti-psychopath PAC Inc. is responsible for the content of this advertising.

Speaker 10 And here's the thing.

Speaker 10 I've been on this for a while, and it pissed me off, honestly, during the first Trump administration that I think that there was this conventional wisdom that sunk in when he won after the grab him by the you-know-what video.

Speaker 10 People are like, well, people don't care about the sexual assaults anymore, so we're not going to talk about it in the media. It was like my one real big media criticism from the first term.

Speaker 10 And I'm like, that's not true, because more information came out about some reservos, about Amy Doris, and some of these as the administration went on, and they just didn't get the attention they deserved.

Speaker 10 And I'm happy you're running those ads. So just talk to us a bit about those ads and what you're trying to get.
Yeah, I mean, it was born of an idea. I tried in 2019, 2020.

Speaker 10 I was trying, I tried to organize, I tried to get a documentary film made of all the women because I thought, you know, after reading

Speaker 10 all about

Speaker 10 them,

Speaker 10 I thought that if you laid their stories back to back and side by side,

Speaker 10 you know, there's just no question he did it, right? Because the two things that we learned during the Me Too episodes about

Speaker 10 what kind of brings, you know, the

Speaker 10 A sexual assault or harassment situation often can be just two people in a room and, it's a swearing match.

Speaker 10 But the things that make, that prove these cases in a court of law or a court of public opinion or in the newspapers is,

Speaker 10 is there a pattern? Because

Speaker 10 we know these guys never do this just once.

Speaker 10 And the second

Speaker 10 is

Speaker 10 the contemporaneous

Speaker 10 testimony or statements of the people who heard their the victim express shock and sorrow and anger and frustration soon after it happened.

Speaker 10 And so I thought it would be great to basically do a documentary

Speaker 10 that would do as many of the women as possible.

Speaker 10 The problem, I mean, and I had

Speaker 10 I had a guy interested in it, the guy who did the base, whose name escapes me right now, but remember he did the baseball one about the Bartman catch. Oh, yeah, that was really good.
Yeah,

Speaker 10 but he couldn't get funding for it because everybody was terrified to do it. HBO wouldn't fund it, people they just wouldn't, they couldn't fund it.

Speaker 10 And then it's, you know, that idea had always stuck with me. And, you know, with Psychopath, I mean, this behavior,

Speaker 10 not just the sexual assault, but the continual lying and maligning of his victim, Eugene Carroll and the others,

Speaker 10 it cost him $83 million additional dollars. All right.
You know, because he kept lying about her.

Speaker 10 The punitive damages, I forgot what they were, but it was like, he just, he absolutely has no compunction. You know,

Speaker 10 his lies

Speaker 10 were patently ridiculous. I never met her.
Excuse me, there was a photograph. Okay?

Speaker 10 You know, you, you know, he's accused of rape, and his answer is, she's not my type.

Speaker 10 Yeah. So

Speaker 10 it occurred to me, like, let's just do testimonials. Let's just do as many of them as we can.
And I wish we had more time.

Speaker 10 And we did three of them. We couldn't do E.
Gene because E. Gene has two appeals in the Second Circuit where she's got $88.3 million riding on us.

Speaker 10 But we used some clips from her to do a lot of things. I thought it was actually good that it was people that focused on the city.
Yeah, no, there were three people.

Speaker 10 Yeah, people hadn't seen before.

Speaker 10 And we tested those. Sarah's people tested those, and they were very effective, even among Trump voters.
And

Speaker 10 I wish I had 20 more millions of dollars, and you'd be watching,

Speaker 10 you'll be seeing it on Channel 6 here.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 I'm glad we did that. I wish we could do more.

Speaker 10 But

Speaker 10 every little vote counts.

Speaker 10 Well, we appreciate it. Hometown boy, George Conway.
Sorry about the Sixers. Never quite happens for the the Sixers, you know? Never quite get there.
Poor Joel and B'de. But I really appreciate it.

Speaker 10 Thanks.

Speaker 10 We'll be seeing you tomorrow. And up next, Sarah Matthews.
Give it up for George.

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Speaker 10 And we're back with Sarah Matthews.

Speaker 10 You guys might know Sarah Matthews.

Speaker 10 She worked in the Trump administration, but that's okay. She was young.
And still young.

Speaker 13 I joke, I was 25 when I resigned from the Trump White House. It was my frontal lobe had finally developed.
Okay, come me some slack.

Speaker 10 And you walked out on what day?

Speaker 13 A little day called January 6th.

Speaker 10 Yeah, you walked out on January 6th, and you were like, you and Alyssa are like, we are leaving, and everybody's coming behind us. And you turned around, and who was there?

Speaker 13 Like Elaine Chow, but

Speaker 10 she doesn't count.

Speaker 13 Yeah, I was like, she kind of waffled on it, too.

Speaker 10 I think that's a good thing.

Speaker 10 We're not counting a lane child. There weren't many.

Speaker 13 I think we definitely all thought that there would be waves of people following us. And sadly not the case.

Speaker 10 I do this every time we talk, but I think it's important. Like, that is crazy.
That is crazy when you think about it. I mean, you're 25 years old.
Alyssa's whatever,

Speaker 10 early 30s. And Cassidy, when she eventually comes forward, is about your age.
She's Mark Meadows' assistant. And everybody saw it.
Everybody saw what happened.

Speaker 10 There was no question about his role or that it was his fault or that he sat there watching TV while it happened. And

Speaker 10 at the end of the day, when there's an entire government full of people, when there's an entire cabinet full of mostly men, besides Elaine Chow, and there's an entire cabinet of men, there's a chief of staff.

Speaker 10 and all these senior advisors around him, and at the end of the day, it's just you and Alyssa and Cassidy. Isn't that just just crazy? Isn't that crazy to you? Like, why you?

Speaker 10 Have you thought about that? Do you think about that in bed at night ever? Why just me? Why not Mark Meadows? Why not Mick Mulvaney? Why not, we could do the whole fucking list.

Speaker 13 Yeah,

Speaker 13 I think that it's a conversation Alyssa, Cassidy, and I have had often. And we all talk about our motivations of why we chose to speak out.
And

Speaker 13 it boils down to, I think, because we are women. And none of us are fortunate enough to have children yet.
Cassidy and I are both still single, so I need a husband first.

Speaker 10 Hey, boys, anybody up there? We'll be hanging out afterwards.

Speaker 13 But the three of us have spoke about how there will come a day when we will be lucky enough to have children, and we want to be able to look our children in the eyes and tell them that their moms did the right thing and stood up.

Speaker 10 I joked, Alyssa said that to me when I interviewed Alyssa for the book, and we were a little drunk, which is a key strategy if any of you

Speaker 10 want to do reporting for books in the future.

Speaker 10 But she got emotional. It was very emotional.
We were like in her living room, and it was very emotional on this topic, you know, and

Speaker 10 I feel the same way.

Speaker 10 And though it does kind of raise the next question, which is, a lot of these people have children? You know what I mean? And it's just like,

Speaker 10 you knew all of them. You worked with all of them.
Like, the disappointment on a personal level had to be pretty crushing.

Speaker 13 Yeah, and I can't speak to certain people's motivations, but you know, I hold the most contempt, I think, for the Republican elected officials because they're there to serve their constituents.

Speaker 13 And what do they do? They're lying to them. Privately, they're saying all these things that I'm saying publicly.

Speaker 13 And it's just unfortunate because they'd rather prioritize their own power than telling the American people the truth about the type of man that they know Donald Trump to be.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 10 And also, because I'm just, this was supposed to be one question, but I've riled myself up every time we talk about this topic. But it's like, the other thing is, all of them are fine.

Speaker 10 This is the thing that drives me crazy. I talked to Kinsinger about this.
You know, like, they are congresspeople. Like, they would be fine if they resigned.
They would want to be on boards.

Speaker 10 People would have them. Their kids are grown.
And a lot of times, their career, they've achieved things in their career. Like, it was you guys actually that had more to lose.

Speaker 10 You know, like you had your career in front of you. You're 25.
You know, and like, so in some ways, I think it was more risky for you than it was for them.

Speaker 13 Yeah, no, exactly. I think, like, I look back on it, I was 25 when I resigned.
I was 27 when I testified before the January 6th committee. I'm 29 today.
But

Speaker 13 my dear friend, Cassidy Hutchinson, was even younger than I was when she was thrust into that position. She was 25 when she testified.
And yeah, we had our whole careers ahead of us.

Speaker 13 We were clearly on trajectories that if we had just kind of stayed silent and gone along to get along, then we'd maybe have some, you know, position right now in, you know, whatever office.

Speaker 13 But then I think to myself, like, do I really want that position anyways?

Speaker 10 No. Hell no.
No. I don't want it.
The soul would be withering. Yeah.
You'd be putting out a statement for Mitch McConnell today about how J.D. Vance said worse things than he did.

Speaker 10 Exactly.

Speaker 13 So it's like, at the end of the day, like, I don't know what their motivations are. Like I said, I can only surmise that to me, it looks like that they're power hungry.

Speaker 13 But I knew that I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror if

Speaker 13 I didn't speak out and do the right thing. And so, ever since resigning on January 6th and moving forward, I've tried to tried to right that wrong of kind of working for Donald Trump.

Speaker 13 Because I will say, I think that there is you know, some cognitive dissonance there of like, I went to go work for him knowing that he wasn't a good man. And, but I wanted to do right by our country.

Speaker 13 I wanted him to be surrounded by people of good character and at a certain point then you kind of start to convince yourself like oh well he can't be that bad because you don't want to feel bad for having gone to work for him yes and and so i obviously it came to a breaking point for myself where i couldn't keep lying to myself i mean i sat there um in the west wing on january 6th watched as aides pleaded with him begging for him to call off the mob, and he didn't lift a finger.

Speaker 13 And so my job as a spokesperson for him would have been to defend that and to me it was indefensible. So it made the decision to resign fairly easy.

Speaker 10 He can never be in there again.

Speaker 13 Nope.

Speaker 10 One more thing on January 6th while we're at it. He's been saying this, but it like becomes more news.

Speaker 10 So you saw the

Speaker 10 town hall at Univision last night. And where he talks about how it was a day of love.

Speaker 10 But he also does this thing that he's slept and done a couple times, but it was worse yesterday than it has been, talking about we,

Speaker 10 where he's defending himself to the questioner,

Speaker 10 and he said,

Speaker 10 We didn't have guns, which is a lie, but it's a side. We didn't have guns.
They had guns. And like, when you think about that for a second, it's like, who's the they that had guns?

Speaker 10 It's the Capitol police.

Speaker 10 And like the we is the people attacking the police.

Speaker 10 That was him yesterday. That's him in 2024.
He still thinks that the mob is on his side and that the people defending the Capitol are the enemy within. Like, that's insane.

Speaker 13 No, it's actually certifiably insane.

Speaker 13 I do want to say that

Speaker 13 the guy who asked him the question at that townhouse

Speaker 13 was an awesome question.

Speaker 10 Probably the hardest question.

Speaker 13 I want the press to find that guy because he started off this question by saying, look, I voted for you in the past. You lost my vote because of January 6th now.
Can you win it back?

Speaker 13 Explain this to me. And Trump goes on to call it a day of love and then says that we, yeah, and to me, January 6th was one of the darkest days in our nation's history.
I mean, it's a stain on America.

Speaker 13 And

Speaker 10 so for him to say that,

Speaker 13 it just goes to show that like he hasn't learned anything because like I think back to even on January 6th when he released the video message from the Rose Garden.

Speaker 13 He said to the protest, I shouldn't call them protesters, rioters. Sorry, my bad.

Speaker 10 Let me correct myself.

Speaker 13 But rioters, he says to them, we love you. You're very special.

Speaker 13 And that really stuck out to me because he didn't try to differentiate between the people who were peacefully protesting on the ellipse and those that we saw storm the Capitol and brutally assault police officers.

Speaker 13 No, he was referring to those people. And so it shows that he's learned nothing.
He has no remorse for what happened. He feels no accountability that maybe he's responsible for what happened.

Speaker 13 And then he thinks of them as his people. That's why he said we.
And it just shows that like he's learned nothing.

Speaker 13 And it's mind-boggling to me then the Republican elected officials who whitewashed the events of that day.

Speaker 13 Because it'd be one thing if Donald Trump admitted any wrongdoing, but we know that he's not capable of doing that.

Speaker 13 And so, yeah, I think I would love for the press to find the guy who asked that question, see if Trump changed his mind and convinced him to support him again.

Speaker 13 Because I can assure you that it was one of the worst answers, just like from a communicator standpoint, like having worked in communications and politics, it was one of the worst answers I've ever seen in a town hall.

Speaker 13 I mean, there's no way in hell he won that guy's vote back. I mean, the guy's face was even like, what?

Speaker 13 Like he even looked, yeah, he didn't even seem to try because if he had maybe shown any amount of remorse, maybe, but he's just not capable of it.

Speaker 10 He intended to.

Speaker 13 Yeah. And I mean,

Speaker 13 it just just shows like he wanted those people at the Capitol that day because he thought that they were fighting for him to stay in power. That's what he wanted.
He didn't care about what happened.

Speaker 13 I mean, we know from the January 6th committee that he was passed a note that said that one of his supporters had been shot.

Speaker 13 And he didn't care. He didn't lift a finger.
Even one of his own people.

Speaker 10 All right. I can like feel my heart beating in my chest right now.
I'm getting so fucking mad. I know I'm just getting so mad.
I get so mad.

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Speaker 10 So let's talk about something happy really quick.

Speaker 10 I just want to talk about your experience with Liz Cheney. I just, I kind of want to build a statue to her right now.

Speaker 10 I couldn't even like

Speaker 10 it's crazy to me that it's just like Adam and Liz and Mark Cuban out there like doing everything and like we're doing our part over here. But it's like,

Speaker 10 is there nobody else?

Speaker 10 But

Speaker 10 you've gotten to have like some personal, you know, right? Because you had to talk to her about testifying and getting you comfortable to testify. And you guys had an event together the other day.

Speaker 10 Was it last week? Yeah, last week. Last week or last week.
And so anyway, just kind of talk about what Liz has meant to you and

Speaker 10 how the experience has been dealing with her one-on-one.

Speaker 13 Yeah,

Speaker 13 I think...

Speaker 13 You would think she'd be really intimidating just looking at her.

Speaker 10 I mean, she's this badass woman.

Speaker 13 Exactly. I think I was too, the first conversation I had with her when I was sitting down with her privately for the January 6th committee, because

Speaker 13 I was sympathetic to their cause, obviously, when the committee was stood up, but it was a little nerve-wracking. I mean, I had worked in Republican politics my whole career.

Speaker 13 This was a majority Democrat committee. She was one of the only Republicans.

Speaker 13 And she took the time out of her day to have a private, one-on-one meeting with me in a secret office inside the basement of the Capitol. And we sat there for like five hours and just talked.

Speaker 13 And it didn't leak to the media that I had gone and met with her.

Speaker 13 and and so it built trust there because I hadn't met her um prior to that and then the more I've gotten to know her uh she is just such a

Speaker 13 I mean she's funny very funny oh I mean it she I mean well like jokes yeah I mean you saw the joke she made when she came out for the Harris event where she joked about

Speaker 13 she's been a Republican longer than Donald Trump's been spray tanning.

Speaker 10 Oh, that was pretty good. She's got

Speaker 10 that felt like that felt like somebody wrote it for her, though. Like, she's got her own jokes.
She's got a great sense of humor. One of these days.

Speaker 13 She's very, very warm

Speaker 13 and just a good-hearted person and so genuine. And so you just see that this has been such a tough road for her.
I mean, she could be the Speaker of the House right now if she wanted to be.

Speaker 13 But you know what?

Speaker 13 She was in Republican leadership and she could have just sat silently and let everything transpire. But she knew she, because she's a patriot and she loves this country, she knew she couldn't sit by.

Speaker 13 And

Speaker 13 I just have such respect for her. I mean, she's got bigger balls than all the male members of Congress combined.

Speaker 10 And I'm really proud and honored to know her.

Speaker 13 And I think she's just been such like a guiding light for myself and Cassidy Hutchinson and Alyssa Farragin and the other women who have spoken out against Trump. And

Speaker 13 yeah, just really honored to know her.

Speaker 10 We're going to create a little Harlan Crowe sculpture garden. Like she's going to have the biggest sculpture.
You have a a little one. You have a very little one.
I'll take it. I'll take it.

Speaker 10 If I'm anywhere near her, yeah.

Speaker 10 I won't complain. All the heroes.
All right, last question. I have a gimmick that I asked you, but I'm actually particularly interested in your answer to this because you worked for Trump.

Speaker 10 And I feel like sometimes some of us never-Trumpers who have been never-Trumpers for 10 years now, like our brains are getting pickled.

Speaker 10 But the most important question I get from people... I got this on Twitter today, actually, so I'll send this to this guy.

Speaker 10 He said, I have a sister, I think it was a sister, in Pennsylvania, and she's a conservative. She's a Republican.
She's always in a Republican, but she doesn't like Trump.

Speaker 10 And I'm trying to nudge her to actually vote for Harris and do what you guys are doing. What is the best argument I can make to try to convince her?

Speaker 10 So I want to hear what you think the best argument would be.

Speaker 13 All right. I guess this would be my elevator pitch then.

Speaker 13 On January 6th, Donald Trump, we know from Jack Smith's filing, was told by a White House aide that his own VP had been moved to a secure location because of everything that was happening at the Capitol.

Speaker 13 The vice president was there with his family that day. And what was Donald Trump's reaction? He said, So what?

Speaker 13 This is a man who lacks empathy. He is a man of the lowest moral character.
And

Speaker 13 I just think that if he didn't care about his own VP's life being in danger, what makes you think he cares about you? And so

Speaker 10 there's a little more. Keep going.

Speaker 10 I'm letting you roll.

Speaker 13 Thank you.

Speaker 13 And I know that Kamala Harris isn't perfect. I have never voted for a Democrat a day in my life, but I believe that she is a good person.
I believe she is someone who will uphold her oath of office.

Speaker 13 And

Speaker 13 so, yeah, there can come a day where we will disagree about policy, and I'm not probably going to like everything in her agenda, but she's not going to light the Constitution on fire. And so

Speaker 13 I understand the hesitation. I mean, like I said, I've never voted for a Democrat either.
But in my eyes, I'm just sick and tired of making excuses for Donald Trump because of policy.

Speaker 13 That's the excuse I often hear from people. Because, you know what? I think that the Constitution and character matter too.
And I'm tired of Trump.

Speaker 13 Like you said, it's been 10 years of dealing with this. And I think it's finally time for us to turn the page and she's our best shot at it.

Speaker 10 Amen. Are you excited to vote for her? Like to go in and do it in person? Are you going to go in in person? Or have you already done it?

Speaker 13 I have my absentee ballot, but I'm sitting on your kitchen table. I'm sitting on my kitchen counter.
I haven't filled it out yet, actually, but I thought about maybe going in person.

Speaker 13 I've always voted absentee, which I don't know why, I just always have. But I'm like, maybe this time I'll go in person because, you know, I get the rush of it.

Speaker 10 Yeah. Amen.
All right. That's Sarah Matthews.
Thank you, everybody.

Speaker 10 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 10 All right, we'll be on the bus together, me and Sarah. So I'll see you in a little bit.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 10 All right, that was the Bulwark podcast.

Speaker 10 We'll be back on Monday with somebody named Bill Crystal.

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Speaker 10 Long overdue, but now Phil slamming boys to men, ABC, BBD.

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