Bill Kristol: The Musk of it All

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Speaker 12 Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
It's Monday, so I'm here with the editor-at-large of the Bulwark, Bill Crystal.

Speaker 12 He's also a longtime member of the Daddy Gang, which we're going to be talking about here in a little bit. How are you doing, Bill?

Speaker 13 I'm fine. I'm fine.

Speaker 13 If I knew what the daddy gang was, I would rebut that. Maybe it's a good thing to be a member of the daddy gang.
Maybe I should be. We'll dig deeper.
I should be honored to be thought to be such.

Speaker 12 Absolutely. You should be honored.
We have to start with some seriousness. It is the one-year anniversary of October 7th.

Speaker 12 I mean, just like the horrors of that day are still kind of hard to really comprehend.

Speaker 12 I hate to say it, but without kind of knowing the exact contours of what would happen in the ensuing year, it's hard to be surprised that we've landed in a place a year out where there is still dramatic fallout, where there's still active military operations both in Gaza and around the Middle East.

Speaker 12 So I guess I'm just curious on your big picture thoughts here one year following the attack.

Speaker 13 Yeah, I mean, the scale and type of atrocity was so horrible that it's honestly hard to even think about.

Speaker 13 I thought about writing about it today, and I just thought, you know, I have nothing to say that others haven't said better. So I would also say that, unfortunately, about here on this podcast.

Speaker 13 I mean, in terms of where we are a year later, and let's say geopolitically, on the one hand, it's been a rough year to support a lot of people have been killed and wounded, and a lot of damage has been done in Gaza, but also in Israel and now Lebanon and elsewhere.

Speaker 13 And from the beginning, Hezbollah joined on October 8th. A lot of anti-Semitism around the world, which is very unfortunate.

Speaker 13 I would also say, if I can, it's not the right topic to be upbeat on, but an awful lot of friends of mine predicted a much bigger war, much more quickly with Iran or even in Lebanon, real ground war, and that hasn't happened yet.

Speaker 13 It's a good reminder that these things, there are surprises on the, I don't know if I say upside and downside, but surprises that things get worse than you expect and also things that can be contained a little more than you expect.

Speaker 13 In some ways, you could make just a hard-headed argument that the terrorist groups that most threaten Israel have been pretty badly damaged. Israel probably can feel maybe somewhat secure.

Speaker 13 Iran's a whole different question.

Speaker 13 But leaving Iran aside, which is a big thing to leave aside, you know, maybe the Middle East isn't quite as unstable as one expected it would be after a year of fighting.

Speaker 13 It really is kind of astonishing. Most of these wars in recent times, well, really all the Israel wars have been short or constrained or made short by the U.S.
or by other allies.

Speaker 13 This one is very much ongoing. But who knows, we could be in a totally different situation tomorrow.

Speaker 12 Yeah, we talked about this a little bit with Michael Weiss last week, but we would have been in a totally different situation talking about this a month ago.

Speaker 12 And in the last month, I think there's been just a meaningful positive change on the Israel side of the equation, just as far as the way that Hezbollah has been degraded, the failure of the Iranian attack.

Speaker 12 And so, you know, it is a dynamic situation, to say the least.

Speaker 13 Yeah. And Iran, I mean, there's a lot of demography on Iran, you know,

Speaker 13 I guess both sides to some degree. Trump messed it up.
Obama messed it up. They probably both messed it up some.
I do think Obama was very wishful about Iran.

Speaker 13 And yeah, it's not an easy thing to know what to do about it. And

Speaker 13 that remains just a huge problem. You You know, it's a good reminder.
I mean,

Speaker 13 regimes that are messianic and dictatorial, in this case, inspired by kind of religious messianism, obviously a hatred of Israel, death to Israel.

Speaker 13 But this same would be true in a different way from certain kinds of Putin-like dictatorships or Chinese-like dictatorships, which have their own dynamics.

Speaker 13 They're not just terrible to their own citizens. This is where the isolationists and the American First People, I think, are just so wrong.
They are dangerous to the world.

Speaker 13 They are a source of instability, a source of, in this case, of terror,

Speaker 13 and requiring responses, which then can lead to another, you know, further instability.

Speaker 13 So a good reminder that we can't turn our back on any of these situations and where we can deal with them earlier rather than later,

Speaker 13 it would be nice to do so.

Speaker 12 Kama's on 60 Minutes tonight, and I want to talk a little bit about kind of her broader media strategy in a second.

Speaker 12 But they put out a clip of her response to questions, a series of questions from Bill Whitaker about the the administration's relationship with BB, the way that BB has involved, he's gone rogue, I guess, or not been aligned with what the Biden-Harris administration would have wanted him to do.

Speaker 12 And I was interested on a couple of her points in the exchange. So we're going to play a little bit of a longer clip than we usually do from the 60-minutes interview.
Let's listen.

Speaker 15 We supply Israel with billions of dollars in military aid. And yet Prime Minister Netanyahu seems to be charting his own course.

Speaker 15 The Biden-Harris administration, has pressed him to agree to a ceasefire. He has resisted.
You urged him not to go into Lebanon. He went in anyway.

Speaker 15 He has promised to make Iran pay for the missile attack, and that has the potential of expanding the war. Does the U.S.
have

Speaker 15 no sway over Prime Minister Netanyahu?

Speaker 16 The aid that we have given Israel allowed Israel to defend itself against 200 ballistic missiles that were just

Speaker 16 meant to attack the Israelis and the people of Israel. And when we think about the threat that Hamas Hezbollah presents, Iran,

Speaker 16 I think that it is without any question our imperative to do what we can to allow Israel to defend itself against those kinds of attacks.

Speaker 16 Now, the work that we do diplomatically with the leadership of Israel is an ongoing pursuit around making clear our principles which include the need for humanitarian aid the need for this war to end the need for a deal to be done which would release the hostages and and and create a ceasefire and we're not going to stop in terms of putting that pressure do we have a

Speaker 15 real close ally in

Speaker 15 Prime Minister Netanyahu

Speaker 16 I think with all due respect, the better question is: do we have an important alliance between

Speaker 16 the American people and the Israeli people? And the answer to that question is yes.

Speaker 12 I thought her little bit at the very end there was pretty deft on talking about,

Speaker 12 you know, not really wanting to weigh in on one side of the BB equation or the other. Like, she didn't really want to undermine BB in this moment.

Speaker 12 And this thing is airing on the one-year anniversary of October 7th.

Speaker 12 She also didn't want to give her full endorsement, and she pivots us to this statement, which is, well, regardless of our relationship between the leaders, like we have an alliance with the Israeli people.

Speaker 12 And I thought that was very clear and I thought well put, in pretty stark contrast with the caricature of her that you hear from the more hawkish elements of the right.

Speaker 12 I don't know what you thought about the exchange.

Speaker 13 You know, I agree. And she is the sitting vice president, so she can't just pop off the way a candidate can.
I mean, they have to deal with B.B.

Speaker 13 for the next, however long the administration is still in power, what would it be, about three and a half months? Three months. Assuming he's still in power.
There's no reason for them to prop him up.

Speaker 13 He doesn't have the support of most Israelis right now. He has a government, obviously, but there's a very

Speaker 13 patriotic and strong opposition, which could take over. So I thought she said the right thing.
I'm leaving aside the political definitions, which I agree with.

Speaker 13 I actually think it was the right thing to say if you're vice president or president of the United States. You know, it's not about one person.

Speaker 13 I'm not going to criticize him, you know, not gratuitously, but I'm not going to identify with him.

Speaker 13 And I'm just going to reiterate the bond she says correctly that the American people have with the Israeli people and the broader American government, she could have put it this way, too, has with the Israeli government.

Speaker 13 If you wanted to get into that, which she doesn't quite dare, I guess.

Speaker 13 You know, you could talk about defense cooperation, intelligence cooperation, and so forth, us defending Israel at the UN, et cetera. But that's kind of implied in what she said.

Speaker 12 Aaron Powell, Jr.: Yeah, the only worry I have with the situation, and maybe it just

Speaker 12 kind of all falls out in the wash. Is she in the sour spot a little bit where it's like only the bulwark people are satisfied with that answer?

Speaker 12 You know, maybe that clip is going around on TikTok and that has a negative impact among younger, you know, people that are more hostile towards Israel than she is.

Speaker 12 And she gets no credit from anybody that's like one tick to our right, that is just so dug in on the fact that this administration is impossibly anti-Israel, like no matter what they do to the contrary.

Speaker 12 But maybe there's just no way around that. That just might be the situation that they're in on this issue.

Speaker 13 Trevor Burrus, Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 13 I mean, the far left, if it's really anti-Israel, I mean, they're presumably not going to vote for either Trump or Biden and vote for Jill Stein, I suppose, or something.

Speaker 13 And on the Trumpy pro-Israel right, which I mean, I'm distressed by the degree to which people have talked themselves into believing that Trump would be better for Israel than Biden.

Speaker 13 I don't think that's the case. I think that's an argument that can be made on policy terms.

Speaker 13 A lot of it is more a matter of affect and it's just kind of, you know, Trump says a few belligerent things or Trump supporters do and then one thinks that's great.

Speaker 13 And I mean, I've probably participated in such mistakes in the past in a sense of, you know, you do, you like having the psychological reinforcement, but you do need to be hard-headed about this, I think,

Speaker 13 as the Israeli government is.

Speaker 13 And I think in practice, a Biden administration and a Harris administration, with their overall view of the world and their overall view of the Middle East and their overall view of Israel, is much more reliable, much more of a solid partner with Israel and a solid supporter of Israel than a Trump administration, which Trump personally has some relations with Jews and vaguely is pro-Israel in some kind of personal way.

Speaker 13 But the idea that Trump's foreign policy,

Speaker 13 that an America-first foreign policy, shaped in part by J.D.

Speaker 13 Vance and the Secretary of State and National Security Advisor, those types who are going to come in with Vance's imprimatur, the idea that that would be good for Israel? Not so.

Speaker 13 I used to get annoyed in the Clinton years. I was on the other side of this then.

Speaker 13 Clinton really has, you know, he flew over to Rabin's funeral and he took many American Jewish leaders. And Clinton had a real affinity.
Clinton was Clinton, right?

Speaker 13 So he was good at being very sympathetic and empathetic with Israel. And I would say, look, I mean, that's nice, but really the policy matters more than the empathy.

Speaker 13 But here, I do think Biden and Harris, they're pretty empathetic, honestly, but it's just hard. I mean, it was such a traumatic thing, to be fair, October 7th.

Speaker 13 And the right has demagogued it in a pretty big way.

Speaker 13 They're soft on this, they're soft on that. Really, what's exactly, what alternative thing would you have done that the Biden-Harris administration hasn't done?

Speaker 12 I guess shown no sympathy

Speaker 12 for the humanitarian victims in Lebanon and Gaza, I guess, like not showing sympathy at all, I guess, which Donald Trump doesn't really do is what they want.

Speaker 12 But I'm clear what the policy ramification of of that is really. Related to this is one of the other big topics:

Speaker 12 Trump also, in addition to having the American First Foreign Policy, also surrounds himself with anti-Semites. And for some reason, this doesn't bother Jews on the right.

Speaker 12 And at his rally in Butler over the weekend, he had Elon Musk, who maybe himself is not an anti-Semite, I don't know, but who has unleashed a torrent of anti-Semitism into the public sphere. I mean,

Speaker 12 I'm a Gentile, and I'm like daily assaulted by people on the internet now calling me slurs related to Jewishness. I guess because me and you hang out.

Speaker 12 I don't exactly know why, but if I'm getting it, then certainly actually Jewish people are getting a lot more anti-Semitic hate now. It runs rampant on the platform.
There's no attempt to control it.

Speaker 12 And he was given a spot of

Speaker 12 influence, of honor at the Trump rally in Butler. And so I think that these things kind of relate.

Speaker 12 But I'm curious, you wrote for Morning Shots today more broadly about Musk's pernicious role and talked about this, the oligarchic arrogance has teamed up with a demagogic populist nativism.

Speaker 12 That seems like a bad combo to me, but talk about the Musk of it all for me.

Speaker 13 Yeah, I was so struck, of course, by Musk coming up to the stage and that stare he exchanges with Trump and then the jumping up and down idiotically and all that.

Speaker 13 But I say in Morning Shots that I, or I say we, and I think this is true of you and me and Sarah and really really a lot of us, and not just at the bulwark, but in never Trump World, we were right about Trump.

Speaker 13 There's a reason we were never Trump, right?

Speaker 13 It wasn't that we didn't like the tweets or we didn't like the little bit of protectionism and trade policy, is that we thought he would do great damage to American politics and really to American society, ultimately, if you unleash that level of demagoguery, especially if he won, which he did, unfortunately, and that's been four years making things worse.

Speaker 13 And now I spent another four years making things worse because the Republican Party didn't have the nerve to shut him down after January 6th. So we were right to be never Trump.

Speaker 13 But I say in the piece that the one thing I didn't really expect was some of the super wealthy turning Trumpy to the degree they have. I always expected a lot of them to accommodate.

Speaker 13 That's what they do. You know, they're not going to pick fights necessarily.
They weren't going to be Professor Encourage.

Speaker 13 They weren't going to be Liz Cheney any more than a ton of Republican elected officials who were going to be Liz Cheney. It'd be nice if a few more had been there.

Speaker 13 But, you know, the super wealthy have done very, by definition, have done very well in America over the last 10, 20, 30 years.

Speaker 13 One would expect out of kind of basic sociological analysis that they would be a conservative force in the old-fashioned sense of conservative. They would be nervous about

Speaker 13 too much craziness, too much populism unleashed. It could turn on us.
Maybe we should calm things down here.

Speaker 12 Downside risk.

Speaker 13 Yeah, anti-risk. You know, so they would have their relationships with Trump.
They wouldn't be like us, God knows, but they would sort of be a moderating force on Trump.

Speaker 13 I just really miss the degree to which this, especially a new generation of tech bro types, but it's more than tech.

Speaker 13 I mean, it's Musk and Thiel and all these people really have internalized a kind of wish for authoritarianism, dislike of democracy, dislike of liberalism in the broad sense.

Speaker 13 And that they're not just going along with Trump to try to keep him in line. That was kind of the first term Republican donor types, I would say.
They are totally on board the authoritarian project.

Speaker 13 And that's very dangerous because they have a lot of power. And Musk's power remains one of the most underrated and underreported stories in America.

Speaker 13 I mean, so the one story I do say in morning shots is a story I tell quickly is I had lunch recently with a political analyst who worked with labor, has worked with organized labor most of his life.

Speaker 13 And I was talking, we were talking about the Vance pick, the pick of J.D. Vance.

Speaker 13 And I was saying, sort of giving an ideological, you know, kind of analysis of why this really embedded Project 2025 and America first thinking.

Speaker 13 in a second Trump term, if there is to be one, and presumably the Republican Party for the future. It's more of an important pick, when you and I discussed this than a lot of people thought.

Speaker 13 And he sort of laughed at me, said, that's true, but you know, you're being a little naive. But I said, I thought it was a risky pick for Trump.

Speaker 13 I mean, the people I knew, both voters, Republican voters, but also Republican donors, would be nervous by such a pick.

Speaker 13 He said, you're talking to the Republican donors who were Republican donors 10 years ago. Thiel and Musk want Vance.
They can lock in their control almost to the Republican Party with J.D.

Speaker 13 Vance and through Vance with Trump, who's not entirely reliable. And Trump, incidentally, knows what he's doing.

Speaker 13 Trump's going to get, he said at the time, this is a little while ago, hundreds of millions of dollars from these people.

Speaker 13 And that I think has turned out to be true. And I was not much, if you think about it, I don't think any of us really focused on that when he picked Vance.

Speaker 13 That was not simply Trump being Trump, he's overconfident and all this. That was Trump thinking, you know what?

Speaker 13 If Tiela Musk gave me a couple hundred million dollars each, I can make up for whatever slight deficiencies Vance has as a candidate.

Speaker 13 But again,

Speaker 13 the melding of that kind of wealth and the ideology is very dangerous.

Speaker 12 Yeah, there's a lot there.

Speaker 12 I want to just pick out just the part about how on board they are with the authoritarian project, you know, because this ties into one of my obsessions, this manifesto from Mark Andreessen.

Speaker 12 Mark Andreessen was kind of us, right?

Speaker 12 He was like a center-right, like more Republican, but moderate, was center-left in the Obama years, you know, and like kind of took on the technocratic, you know, side of Silicon Valley that Obama played into a little bit.

Speaker 12 Probably would have been a Huntsman man in 2012 if he did better. Like, this is who Mark Andreessen is.

Speaker 12 He writes this manifesto about a year ago that is radical, you know, that it's talking about what is coming with AI and like the limits that small liberalism and that having a system like of government is putting limits on what they see as some whatever, you know, utopian or dystopian future, however you want to look at it, right?

Speaker 12 Like they want to be able to be unrestricted with their AI investments. They want their crypto, Bitcoin investments to not be regulated, like the regular part of the banking system.

Speaker 12 And so in order to get that, like they need a Trump, right? Like they need an autocrat, somebody that they can buy, you know, somebody they can deal with

Speaker 12 that will just regulate foes, right? Like it will just regulate the woke corporations. Like not them.

Speaker 12 Like, I don't think that they have like a secret plan, like a project 2025 for tech in place where they're going to install so-and-so, but just just like directionally, the T.L.

Speaker 12 Musk and Dreesen, they've bought in with Trump because they kind of want the lawless element of it because they feel like they'll be on the right side of a lawless exchange.

Speaker 12 And that is like, that's super dark. Like, that takes us to a place that is extremely,

Speaker 12 you know, that's not just kind of like ideologically extreme, but that is extreme about like the whole change of how like an American system of government works.

Speaker 13 I really think that's right.

Speaker 13 I mean, I quote Rosa FDR, who criticizes in his exception speech in 1936, the convention, Democratic Convention, the economic royalists of his day, who he says, something like, it's natural and human once you, in fact, made all this money to also want to control government, but we have to stop them from doing this.

Speaker 13 And I think that's true of these guys, too.

Speaker 13 They've accomplished a lot by being pretty rough in their business tactics, but fine, maybe it was all for the good good and competition and so forth. And we have all these good products as a result.

Speaker 13 But then they see the next frontier, so to speak. And for that, they do need government to be not just fair or even favorable.
They really want it to be an instrument of theirs, right?

Speaker 13 But I think here it's even beyond the kind of big oil, the big businesses whom FDR is attacking or whom Teddy Roosevelt attacked as the malefactors of great wealth back in the early 20th century.

Speaker 13 It's sort of even beyond the normal capture of regulatory agencies by, you know, by big companies because it is an authoritarian.

Speaker 12 It's evolving door stuff.

Speaker 13 Yeah. I mean, it's not just a kind of, you know, we don't want to be regulated too much.
And some of that went in a pretty bad direction, right? I mean,

Speaker 13 people died as a result of their lobbying not to have safety and other kinds of laws, obviously, but regulations.

Speaker 13 But still, this is a little different level because of the authoritarian character, I would say, of the current Trumpist project.

Speaker 13 So you really do have something a little more like Europe in the 20s and 30s, where a lot of the rising new businesses actually did end up on board with authoritarians and fascists of different kinds, because that was, you know, they saw that cooperation with them would ensure they would be left alone from hostile regulation, but also some of them got personally enthusiastic about the project.

Speaker 13 I see that very much just personally, don't you, with people like Musk and Teal.

Speaker 12 Yeah. And if these parallels to the 20s and 30s just kind of get your blood going, just wait till tomorrow's podcast.
And

Speaker 12 our guest then will have, I think, more extended remarks along along these lines.

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Speaker 12 There are two clips from the rally I want to play back to back that take us to a different, a different side of the coin as far as the darkness of the Trumpian authoritarian project.

Speaker 12 That is the violent side of it. Trump is in Butler, you know, which was creepy in its own way for him to go back there.

Speaker 12 And there's, you know, I guess there's something to be said for it, you know, going back to the scene of the crime, if you will.

Speaker 12 And overall, I just unbalance, obviously, we're grading them on the lowest of bars.

Speaker 12 I had expected them to do more bloody shirt waving and more allusions to vengeance and all of this in the past couple months since Butler at the convention and elsewhere.

Speaker 12 And they weren't as bad as I thought, which is a rare, pleasant surprise from the MAGA world. But there were a couple of lines from the rally in Butler that

Speaker 12 have me a little concerned. So I want to listen to Elon.
This is after he did the jumping where you could see his belly fat. And then he got to the microphone.
And let's listen to Elon.

Speaker 12 You must have free speech in order to have democracy. That's why it's the First Amendment.

Speaker 12 And the Second Amendment is there to ensure that we have the First Amendment.

Speaker 12 I don't like that laugh.

Speaker 12 President Trump must win to preserve the Constitution. He must win to preserve democracy in America.

Speaker 12 So the evil nerd chuckle after talking about how the Second Amendment is there to protect the First Amendment is

Speaker 12 disturbing to me. And then this like whole dystopian Orwellian notion that it's Trump that's protecting democracy.

Speaker 12 I don't know, Bill.

Speaker 13 It's creepy. I mean, certainly I would say it's a normal personal reaction, but it's dangerous.

Speaker 13 He's the wealthiest person in the world.

Speaker 13 I mean, and he's saying that, in effect, he's justifying basically, it's a Flight 93 justification, not by an obscure guy, Mike Anton, writing a paper for Claremont's website, but by the wealthiest person in the world who controls one of the most important media platforms in the world.

Speaker 13 Incidentally, what does it say about the next month? If Musk believes what he says he believes, and we have no reason to think he doesn't, what is going to happen on Twitter over the next month?

Speaker 13 And how much disinformation is going to be promulgated?

Speaker 13 And, you know, you read about the disinformation, you read about it with a hurricane and stuff, and then you think, well, hopefully people can get on top of it and stop it.

Speaker 13 And I don't even know how to stop it. And I kind of hope it doesn't have that much effect.
But I don't know.

Speaker 13 I mean, I think a combination, one way I've been thinking about it is Putin wants Trump to win and Elon Musk wants Trump to win.

Speaker 13 And they are both people who will not stop at any normal boundaries of what they will do to help Trump to win. That's a very bad situation.

Speaker 12 And you would come in a different place to it than where I was, because I think that's true. I worry about the vigilante side of it.

Speaker 12 Again, put yourself in the mindset of somebody that is in butler that loves donald trump that has come there trump was almost killed there they probably haven't are in a bubble where they haven't learned that like the shooter was just one of these disturbed teens who's or 20 year old but it was who was looking to shoot any famous person it seems like based on what we know so far with the fbi but they they probably don't have that information they assume that they're an agent of the left or whatever and so they're at this rally The blood is pumping, right?

Speaker 12 Just the energy is probably at this rally. And then you have Elon Musk, who

Speaker 12 they look up to, who's who's up there saying the Second Amendment is there to protect your right to the First Amendment, and democracy is on the line if Donald Trump loses.

Speaker 12 And if then they are going to try to keep Donald Trump from losing. I don't think it takes a wild imagination to think about what kind of impact that could have on somebody.

Speaker 12 And it's just completely irresponsible. And then, and then there's Trump doing a similar thing.
Let's listen to Trump talk about the Kamala voter.

Speaker 19 Is there anybody here that's going to vote for Lion Kamala? Please raise your hand.

Speaker 19 Please raise your hand.

Speaker 19 Actually, I should say, don't raise your hand. It would be very dangerous.

Speaker 19 We don't want to see anybody get hurt. Please don't raise your hand.

Speaker 12 What do you even say to that?

Speaker 12 It'd be dangerous? Yeah.

Speaker 12 You know, you can't even imagine that happening at a Democratic rally. Like, don't raise your hand and admit you're a Trump supporter.
It would be dangerous for you.

Speaker 12 Some of my supporters might be so unable to control themselves that they would shoot you or hurt you.

Speaker 13 Yeah, And if someone did speak up on a democratic rally, if there were a heckler, obviously at some point you'd say, well, let the speaking go forward here. Would you please leave?

Speaker 13 But before that, people would say, if some people started to attack that person, I believe this has happened in real life, like with Joe Biden and John McCain and other people who believed in liberal democracy.

Speaker 13 They've tried to tell their own supporters, hey, wait a second, no violence here. You know,

Speaker 13 being in the majority doesn't justify violence, but it does for them.

Speaker 13 And this is the thing, you look, you feel foolish if you complain every time Trump alludes to violence, every time there's bullying, every time there's, you know, a kind of anti-liberalism, let's call it, in their rhetoric.

Speaker 13 But it does add up. It does add up.
There's a trivial thing that I saw that just struck me this morning.

Speaker 13 I think someone at Deloitte, the accounting firm and consulting firm, I don't know, released text messages that he had had. I think it was a he, with J.D.
Vance.

Speaker 13 I have no idea what the legality of that is and propriety. It's not the nicest thing in the world to release private text messages.
Maybe there's a reason for it, but whatever. But that's okay.

Speaker 13 It's one employee. It's nothing to do with Deloitte.
I don't even think it's on his work email, but maybe it is, but you know, it's clearly not part of work. It wasn't.

Speaker 13 And there's all these calls to boycott, and you know, not just to boycott Deloitte, which I guess citizens have a right to do if they take their business elsewhere, but for the government to strip Deloitte of contracts and prevent them from competing.

Speaker 13 So this is just routine now to assume that if there's something that happens that you don't like, if an employee of some company does something, even as a private matter and a private citizen, that you don't like, the government should come down on that company.

Speaker 13 And that is literally what happens at authoritarian. I mean, that is literally Hungary, and it's literally Italy and Germany.

Speaker 13 And that's kind of the definition of illiberal or anti-liberal political economy. And I don't know, do we have any confidence?

Speaker 13 This is where I really think people are underestimating still the second term. Do we have confidence that Trump and J.D.

Speaker 13 Vance want to act on that and that the appointees they put in there want to act on such instincts and urging?

Speaker 12 Goes back to your riskiness. Like, why take this risk? I cannot fathom it.
I cannot fathom why take this risk. I'm going to do one more clip from the Trump rally.
I apologize to the listeners.

Speaker 12 He says the kind of a version of what I'm about to play a lot, but I just refuse to be beaten down by it and to ignore it because it's so appalling.

Speaker 12 I just also think in the context of being in Butler and of this vengeance and retribution and what we've been talking about, I think it's important to listen to this clip in that context as well.

Speaker 12 So let's play it.

Speaker 19 The enemy from within, the crazy lunatics that we have, the fascists, the Marxists, the communists, the people that we have that are actually running the country, not her.

Speaker 19 She's not running it, and Biden's not running it either, and you all know that. Those people are more dangerous, the enemy from within, than Russia and China and other people.

Speaker 12 I mean, again, what do you say? Like the layers of this, like he just kind of ducks in a little conspiracy about how there's imaginary people, you know, puppeteers behind the curtain.

Speaker 12 I do wonder for people that don't think Trump dabbles in anti-Semitism, who he thinks, who he's talking about there, who exactly are the people people behind the curtain.

Speaker 12 But then, on top of it, just this notion that there is within our fellow citizens some cabal, some enemy cabal that is even more dangerous than Putin, who is bombing cities and kidnapping children.

Speaker 12 It is without precedent to have a presidential candidate saying something like this.

Speaker 13 No, as you say, it's an invitation to violence, to vigilantism, which I think is a real fear both for Election Day and for that period right after the election, I guess, conceivably before the election, too, incidentally, but also obviously if Trump wins.

Speaker 13 I mean, that's again something people haven't focused on.

Speaker 13 It's not just that the government's going to be authoritarian, it's going to reach out to find authoritarian allies and helpers out there in the country.

Speaker 13 Armed citizens here need to prevent this constitutional territorial group from frustrating our dear leaders' plans. And suddenly, you're into a really, really dark scenario.

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Speaker 12 All right, we got Waylade going down this path. I want to go back to the Kamala interviews.

Speaker 12 She's on 60 Minutes tonight, but yesterday they published a podcast with Call Her Daddy, which I know you've been a longtime fan of. It's nice that we got Doug on the Bullard podcast.

Speaker 12 Love to have Doug. Had a great conversation with Doug, but you know, I don't know.
It maybe feels like a little bit of reverse sexism that Kamala got put on Call Her Daddy. Maybe

Speaker 12 we can do an in-verse next time. It's good that Kamala is out there.
I'm like a little bit annoyed with there's this meta-media conversation where everybody analyzes every interview Kamala does.

Speaker 12 Like, is this a smart thing? Is this it's like she should do all of them. She should do all of them.
She should do 60 Minutes. She should do Call Her Daddy.
She should do local media.

Speaker 12 She should do the breakfast club. She should do the bulwark.
She should do whatever. She should do it all.
And so it's good that she's out there and that they seem to be turning up the intensity.

Speaker 12 But there's a clip I want to play from it. But first, do you have any kind of broad thoughts on, you know, the more offensive Harris campaign? No, I think it's good.

Speaker 13 I actually listened to much of the Call Her Daddy.

Speaker 13 It's not like, you know, Tim Miller at the Vulwark or something that I'm a regular listener to, but

Speaker 13 it was interesting. She was good, I thought, though.

Speaker 12 I sent you the link to it, which you had already listened because you're a member of the daddy gang.

Speaker 13 The questions were good, I've got to say.

Speaker 13 I mean, all this, the idea that only professional political commentators have the wit to ask intelligent questions of a presidential candidate is so ridiculous. You know, her questions were fine.

Speaker 13 And I thought some of Harris's answers were actually interesting and more interesting than you would have gotten on a, than we're probably going to get on 60 Minutes.

Speaker 12 She was super interesting.

Speaker 12 And I want to play the abortion code, but she was interesting on just kind of speaking about like her experience as a prosecutor and dealing with victims of sexual assault, I thought was super interesting.

Speaker 12 She's just very comfortable talking about that, you know, because of her experience. And so I thought that was.
eye-opening in a way.

Speaker 12 She's a lot more comfortable in these settings, I will say, honestly. And she was very comfortable on the,

Speaker 12 what was it, all the Smoke interview with the former NBA players, you know, talking about her racial identity, talking about sports, talking about the Bay Area.

Speaker 12 And so I think that it's good that she's doing this stuff. And I'd encourage people to listen to the full interview, even though

Speaker 12 I guess Alex is kind of a competitor.

Speaker 13 People should listen to it, even though she is a competitor. But, you know,

Speaker 13 if she tries hard, she might catch up to you, Tim.

Speaker 13 There's a fame and fortune. The clip I thought was very interesting.
It was being a child of divorce, actually, which is a, she's not very personal a lot of the time, and I don't begrudge her that.

Speaker 13 People who title type their private lives, even if they're public officials, but she reveals a little more about herself, and

Speaker 13 I thought it was very thoughtful and sort of

Speaker 13 didn't seem staged at all and impressive, actually, as a human matter.

Speaker 12 I also agreed with that. I'd encourage people to listen to the whole thing.
I will say when I texted you this one clip, that's a kind of a sultry photo of Alex Cooper on the front of this.

Speaker 12 I was hoping that Susan wasn't looking over your shoulder and thinking I was sending you anything untoward. So if she's listening right now, it's all good.
It's just, you know, it's

Speaker 12 a little bit more

Speaker 12 R-rated than I think the usual fare that I'm texting you. But the clip isn't R-rated.
I thought this was interesting. Alex, for people who don't know Alex Cooper, she started with barstool.

Speaker 12 And I do think the Democrats sometimes...

Speaker 12 look down their nose at like this kind of the more culturally conservative but not like politically conservative but you know more bro-y cultural you know more comfort talking about non-PC type stuff and so Alex like kind of came out of that barstool world.

Speaker 12 And I did not realize this about her, but she talks in the interview about how she grew up Catholic and was pro-life.

Speaker 12 I thought that this was interesting to hear how the two of them discussed the abortion issue through that Catholic context.

Speaker 16 And you know what's interesting, Alex, to your point, what I'm finding as I travel, people who, before two years ago, before Roe v.

Speaker 16 Wade was overturned, people who felt very strong about that they are anti-abortion, anti-abortion, are now seeing what's happening and saying, hmm,

Speaker 16 I didn't intend for all this to happen.

Speaker 16 And I think that's also why in state after state, so-called red states and so-called blue states, when this issue has been on the ballot, the American people are voting for freedom.

Speaker 16 Because ultimately it's about, look, this is not about imposing my thoughts on you in terms of what you do with your life or your body.

Speaker 16 It's actually quite the opposite. It's saying the government shouldn't be telling people what to do.

Speaker 20 I think that

Speaker 21 unfortunately, we have these real life names. We have these horrific moments that these people are losing their lives, right?

Speaker 21 We have a woman named Amber Thurman who died in Georgia because the abortion bans in that state, the doctors were too afraid to treat her.

Speaker 12 Kamala continues to be very good at this, as talking about abortion in a way that

Speaker 12 to people that consider themselves personally pro-life and talking about the fallout. I just think this lands with me.
So I think it lands with people.

Speaker 12 Talking about the fallout since the Dobbs decision of what we've seen in some of these states and how there have been a lot of instances that really are outside of the pro-life ethos, right?

Speaker 12 Like that where women's, the mother's life is being not respected and being put at risk, frankly, and how they're not being supported and how the babies aren't being supported. And I like it.

Speaker 12 And I'm happy that she has this conversation with somebody like Alex, right?

Speaker 12 Because it puts it in a different context than if you're talking to a pro-choice interviewer, a liberal interviewer, you know, that might take the conversation in a different direction.

Speaker 12 So anyway, to me, I thought that was the most noteworthy exchange of the interview. I don't know what you thought.

Speaker 13 No, I thought that was interesting. And it happened that today is the day of the Supreme Court comes back, first Monday in October.
So reasonable day to think about.

Speaker 13 If you can get more political for a second, the next president is going to appoint a lot of federal federal judges, including maybe one or two Supreme Court justices.

Speaker 13 And a very legitimate issue about not just Dobbs and its own implications in terms of how it's played out at the state level. And there's a ton of things that are unresolved.

Speaker 13 As we know, some of these travel bans and other kinds of things are being challenged in federal court, district court, and we don't know how that will actually be interpreted at the Supreme Court level.

Speaker 13 But of course, other things that go beyond Dobbs and abortion itself in terms of the right to privacy. And I do think, honestly, of all the issues she has, it's both a totally legitimate issue.

Speaker 13 I mean, there's foreign policy, which for me is extremely important. Economic policy is important.
The differences are pretty great.

Speaker 13 But at the end of the day, as we've seen in the last seven, eight years, the American economy seems to be able to chuck along under an awful lot of different mistakes and different kinds of foolishness in some ways, not to minimize economic policy.

Speaker 13 And there's foreign policy, which is really real, I think. There's preserving democracy, which is really real.
And then I do think abortion is like right up there.

Speaker 13 Maybe it's something three, but it's not, it's in the, for me, as an actual matter of what matters, you know, and what would distinguish a Trump and a Harris administration.

Speaker 13 I think it's very high on the list. And I think she's totally entitled to close on this issue in large part.
If she does it in the way she did on that podcast, I think it'll be effective.

Speaker 12 I wanted to get into some of the disinformation around Helene, but I feel like we've been in the muck a bunch.

Speaker 12 And I talked about this on YouTube with Sam Stein, so people should check out our YouTube feed. So I just want to close with you just on just politics, politics.
What are you feeling?

Speaker 12 How's Bill Crystal feeling? We're one month month out. There was an interesting Nate Cohn article today, which might make people feel better or worse.

Speaker 12 He digs into the different polls and it gets super nerdy, but like the takeaway from it is in polls that are

Speaker 12 waiting towards the 2020 vote, you're getting a different result than in polls that don't wait to the 2020 vote.

Speaker 12 Cohn's New York Times polls don't wait to it, and the result that they see is that Kamala does worse in

Speaker 12 national polls, but better in the swing states, which to Cohn kind of states that like we are having this realignment that is happening and maybe that maybe it will turn out that the electoral college and popular vote gap won't be as wide because Trump's starting to do better in California and New York, you know, and Kamala is doing better with white voters that over-index in the upper Midwest swing states.

Speaker 12 So it's an interesting piece. I'll put it in

Speaker 12 the show notes here for people that want to nerd out. But I'm wondering where your head's at on the state of affairs.

Speaker 13 I don't know for reasons I couldn't put my finger on. I'm slightly more optimistic maybe than I was a few days ago.

Speaker 13 I think the Vance-Walls debate was not a highlight, and therefore I maybe was a little too worried about that. I think it's now faded into the obscurity that all vice presidential debates fade into.

Speaker 13 And I think her coming out, maybe has just cheered me up a little bit more that she's doing all these interviews.

Speaker 13 She'll get beat up on one or two things, but I think it makes it easier to tell people: look, I mean, she's competent, and here she is talking to everyone.

Speaker 13 And Trump does a lot of stuff, I guess, but it's almost entirely with super-friendly interviewers, right? I mean, with Fox, basically, and then a couple of other things.

Speaker 12 Yeah, he does these kind of random YouTubers and

Speaker 12 like Nelk brothers and streamers and stuff. He does like favorable,

Speaker 12 you know, alternative media, but favorable alternative media.

Speaker 12 Right.

Speaker 13 So I think she gets some credit for that. And I agree about the Nate Cohn piece position.

Speaker 13 It does feel, look, every, I mean, who knows, but basically there are very few polls, almost no polls that have Trump ahead in the national popular vote.

Speaker 13 And the range of which is behind is anywhere from about one to four or five.

Speaker 13 I'm just going to think that she wins by two or three points at this stage in the national vote, which seems also to be confirmed by some other evidence that the gap between the Electoral College and the popular vote is shrinking back to something closer to what it was before 2020.

Speaker 13 That's got to help her. And she seems in pretty good shape in Wisconsin and Michigan.
And then she needs Pennsylvania or Nevada and Georgia or Nevada and North Carolina. I don't know.

Speaker 13 They could all go south, obviously. I mean, but the key is going to be the Bulwark Tour, the Bulwark, as it combined with Republican voters against Trump.

Speaker 12 Yeah, the Bulwark Tour next week, the 17th in Philly and the 18th in Pittsburgh and the 19th in Detroit. So come on by and hang out with us.
Bulwark.com slash events. Keep an eye on that for tickets.

Speaker 12 They should be on sale here in the next 24 hours or so.

Speaker 13 Yeah, I've got a wedding that weekend, but I'm going to make it at least to Philly. And I'm saying if Pennsylvania comes through, it's the Bulwark.
It's the bulkwork.

Speaker 13 I mean, of all the things that have happened, could anything compete with that tour as a game changer?

Speaker 12 I don't think so. And I think people should come if you're from out of state.

Speaker 12 I know I have friends who are from out of state or here in Louisiana or in Colorado that wanted to, you know, wanted to go and help on the margins. That's a good excuse.

Speaker 12 Come hang out with us in Pittsburgh, do a live podcast, and go door knocking the next day or earlier in that day and

Speaker 12 put some of the nervous energy to use. So I do think that's right.

Speaker 12 And I guess I'll close with my people asking why the vibes have shifted, why it feels a little more nervous than it did for Kamala two weeks ago.

Speaker 12 Like my answer to that is that we were in a period of just growth, like unprecedented really growth for the Paris like ballot, you know, both in her favorability and the ballot with Trump, how far down the ticket was when Biden was in.

Speaker 12 And then she has this good convention and good debate. And it's like there's this feeling of positive momentum.
And we're just into the trenches now, you know?

Speaker 12 And so like it feels different just because it feels better to be growing than to be stagnant, you know, and I think that that kind of explains the vibe shift, if you will.

Speaker 12 And it is a little close for comfort, but I kind of concur with your assessment there. It's close for comfort, but it's still Harris still in slightly better position.
All right.

Speaker 12 Bill, any final thoughts from you?

Speaker 13 No, just on the polling for favorability, unfavorability, and almost every poll is better than Trump's.

Speaker 13 And I continue to think that is a core thing that people, voters, come back to at the very end, especially in a way, less ideological voters who aren't voting on some checklist of issues, but they just like Harris better.

Speaker 13 And if that holds up, I feel

Speaker 13 somewhat, somewhat optimistic. And, you know,

Speaker 13 it's been a good week to be optimistic. The Mets come from behind on Monday night, they come from behind on Thursday night, and then on Saturday night, kind of an amazing week for the Mets.

Speaker 13 And Vanderbilt. And Vanderbilt.
What about

Speaker 13 your SEC? That was fantastic. And showing the Nick Sabin clip there

Speaker 13 on the scoreboard after the game. That was amazing.

Speaker 12 It was beautiful, a beautiful win for Vandy, and it's beautiful to live in 2024 where I took my daughter to dinner and I was watching it on my phone.

Speaker 12 You know, you can watch the final minute on your phone now when you're walking down the street on Magazine Street. And technology is wonderful.
The victory was wonderful.

Speaker 12 I was happy for the Vandy kids. And

Speaker 12 yeah, the SEC is crazy. Everybody has a loss.

Speaker 12 LSU's undefeated in conference.

Speaker 12 The LSU is terrible this year, I think. It was supposed to be a down year, and who knows? Maybe Hope Springs Eternal for the Mets.
and the Tigers.

Speaker 12 I guess my only disappointment was that I didn't get to have Caitlin Collins, Alabama fan, fan, on after the Alabama loss so that I could have, you know, kind of been a little more smug and trash-talking her beloved Crimson Tide, but such is life.

Speaker 12 All right. And on that note, I want to revise and extend my remarks on something that Caitlin and I got into on the podcast last week.
So I'm going to let you go, Bill. Thanks so much.

Speaker 12 We will see you next Monday, as always, and then next Thursday in Philadelphia for everybody else. All right.

Speaker 12 I want to break the fourth wall a little bit because I got some feedback about an exchange that Caitlin and I were having at the beginning of the podcast.

Speaker 12 I think it's worth getting into a little bit more. We were kind of joking around at the beginning and she was talking about how she doesn't want the election to be over.

Speaker 12 And I was saying I kind of agree, thinking about the prospect of the post-election of having either Trump or having a more boring coconut time with Kamala.

Speaker 12 I just kind of want to expand where I was coming from. Like for starters,

Speaker 12 me and Caitlin don't actually know each other that well. And so when you have a guest who's like more of a serious news person, I'm trying to to loosen them up at the start.

Speaker 12 You know, we're trying to make sure we're having cool, casual convo. Because if a pod guest sounds like they would sound on CNN, like I have failed you.
That's not the point of this platform, right?

Speaker 12 To have kind of a talking point convo. And so, you know, I have a lot of people on here who are friends of mine, but when there are other folks, you know, you're trying to get everybody comfortable.

Speaker 12 And in this context, we were getting comfortable.

Speaker 12 And that like notion, right, I think, giving the stakes of the election, us cheerily kind of talking about how much we're enjoying the election, I think did rub some people the wrong way in a way that I get.

Speaker 12 And so, to explain what we meant a little bit more, to me, I think about this election as like the sword of Damocles.

Speaker 12 And it's kind of comfortable when the sword is hanging over you because it's just there. It's been there.
And for us, it's been there for like almost a decade. And so

Speaker 12 it's just like sitting there. And we are getting to kind of live in our political life and get comfortable

Speaker 12 knowing that it's up there.

Speaker 12 And so, I shouldn't really be surprising that two people who really love politics, who have daily politics shows, kind of are enjoying the moment of high political interest.

Speaker 12 But that said, like, when the sword is now up there and you know that there's somebody with scissors coming and like the scissors are coming in 30 days, that brings a little bit of restlessness, you know, knowing that we're either bucking up for four more years where I'm going to have to be like a voice resisting a lawless president, that sounds scary and it sounds intense.

Speaker 12 Or the other option is that the sword drops, it doesn't fall on us, and we're at the end of an era. And there's something really gratifying about that and like this exhale.

Speaker 12 But at the same time, like for me, that's also like scary in a different way, right?

Speaker 12 Of the staring out into the abyss, you know, because there is, Trump has been my nemesis now, maybe a one-way nemesis for like nine and a half years. And this is this is a story as old as time.

Speaker 12 It's like Ahab and the whale, like you need a nemesis sometimes, like to keep you going.

Speaker 12 And for people who haven't like listened to me talk about this, when Jeb lost, after Jeb lost, I had three hours at the beach.

Speaker 12 I went to the beach with a book and I sat there and I was there for like three hours. Then I got a phone call to be asked to be the spokesperson for the anti-Trump PAC.
That was in spring of 2016.

Speaker 12 It is now 2024. I was unmarried and without a child.
So it was that long ago. And throughout that entire period, like the constant has been fighting this asshole.

Speaker 13 All right.

Speaker 12 Fighting him and trying to beat him. And

Speaker 12 the end of that, because I think if we beat him this time, it would be the end. It will not be the end of the threat of MAGA or the threat of authoritarianism, but of Trump.

Speaker 12 Like the notion of Trump winning at age 82 after having lost twice, never say never. JVL is listening to this right now, going, no, Trump will be back at 82.

Speaker 12 You know, but it will feel like an end of sorts.

Speaker 12 And that,

Speaker 12 like, in itself is something that like gives you, gives me a feeling in my pit of my stomach, like, okay, well, there's, there will be first the relief and like the sense of accomplishment.

Speaker 12 And then there will be, okay, now what? Right. There will be like an emotional crash that's related to that.

Speaker 12 And while I would trade literally anything anything to have that emotional crash, besides my family, I would trade anything. I would love it.

Speaker 12 This is like the first world of first world problems. Please, like, let Trump get annihilated.
Let him go away.

Speaker 12 Let him go into the dustbin of history and let us figure out what we are going to do in a world where Kamala is running against a normal Republican, Glenn Youngkin.

Speaker 12 I would love for that to be the case.

Speaker 12 I don't really think that's going to happen, but I would, in the sense that I don't think that there'll be a period of unrest within the Republican Party that does not land on somebody like Glenn Youngkin.

Speaker 12 But if I could just

Speaker 12 throw a penny into the well and have that be the outcome, I would throw the penny. Please let that be the outcome.
But if that happens,

Speaker 12 then there is this question of, okay,

Speaker 12 everybody's exhaled. We've defeated the nemesis.
And that's like, what's next? What do we do?

Speaker 12 And in a way, that is a little scary. It's also exciting.
I think that there will be a lot of challenges.

Speaker 12 All of these disinformation things that we're talking about with AI, the MAGA conservative media versusn't going anywhere, J.D.

Speaker 12 Vance versus Ron DeSantis, how Kambala handles the presidency, challenges coming from the left. There'll be tons of shit to talk about.

Speaker 12 We are cursed to live in interesting times, but the prospect of it and of having this decisive moment after 10 years of struggle is, in a way,

Speaker 12 a little bit nerve-wracking. I'm sure you're all feeling, some of you are feeling those nerves as well.

Speaker 12 And so we're sort of doing a little casual banter where I was talking about how, like, there is an ominousness to the post-election, and the pre-election, as stressful as that is, is in some ways preferable.

Speaker 12 And so, we were doing a little bit of banter about that. And I can understand why some people are like, no, Tim, what the fuck are you talking about? No, this is awful.

Speaker 12 Let's beat him and let's move forward into the happy times. And I hear that.
I hear that. I really do.
But

Speaker 12 it also is nerve-wracking. And it's also an end.
Sometimes I struggle with the ends of things, and I do better with the beginnings. So

Speaker 12 hopefully in December, well, no, December, unfortunately, because we'll stop the steal. Hopefully, in January, we will be turning the page to a new spring.
We'll be working through this all together.

Speaker 12 In a way, that is very exciting. But that's like where my mind was when I was having that exchange with Caitlin.

Speaker 12 I want you guys to kind of really know where I'm coming from and how I'm thinking about all this.

Speaker 12 And in the days where I get nervous about it, sometimes I think about all these great ideas I have for stuff that we're going to be able to do here together in January and February and March.

Speaker 12 So there is cool shit coming. And the thing that makes me the most happy when I think about that era is if Kamala wins, we might be able to have the Trump trials with Ben Wittis back.

Speaker 12 And that would be something that would bring all of us some joy. So I appreciate you all for listening.

Speaker 12 We have a doozy tomorrow. So buckle up.
We'll see you all back here then. Peace.

Speaker 12 I'll never be alone, dirty.

Speaker 14 I'll never be alone

Speaker 14 I'll never be alone, daddy Daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy

Speaker 14 I'll never be alone, daddy

Speaker 14 I'll never be alone

Speaker 14 I'll never be alone, daddy,

Speaker 14 space, space,

Speaker 14 space, space The dot

Speaker 14 The dot connector The dot connector The spot corrector

Speaker 14 I say I love you You say whatever

Speaker 14 Yeah, uh

Speaker 14 It must be the life's downtown But I sweet love, you got me round

Speaker 14 If I'm having thoughts right now, only her two hands can let me down

Speaker 14 I'm finna walk with you Through one up with how much they got me through Tell her I think of that name I got from you Tell her we do the king shit we bout to do

Speaker 14 She wanted romance, she could take that day drop off.

Speaker 14 Connect her. My nigga said life starts when you get that bad.

Speaker 14 Connector, make me alright. I'ma just say something, spend the night.
Baby, you get me, you get me right. And when you take it, you take my side.

Speaker 12 The Bullard podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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Speaker 20 It matters that we're there for you when you need us, day or night.

Speaker 24 And we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill your craving for a tasty and yeah, healthy snack.

Speaker 24 At CVS, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So visit us at cvs.com or just come by our store.
We can't wait to meet you.

Speaker 24 Store hours vary by location.