Lis Smith: Go After the Weird Angle

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Speaker 8 Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
Tonight, we are live on YouTube during the debate. Come hang, search for the Bulwark on YouTube.

Speaker 8 If you haven't subscribed yet, I want to wish a happy 100th birthday to Jimmy Carter and also rest easy to Dekembe Mutumbo, Mount Mutumbo. He died of brain cancer 58 yesterday.

Speaker 8 And yes, Donald Trump surrogate and failed actor Rob Rob Schneider did accuse him of dying via the COVID vaccine. So that's what we're dealing with out there.

Speaker 8 I will discuss all of that and more with Democratic Strategist Extraordinaire, author of Any Given Tuesday, New York Town Bloyd Maven, my friend Liz Smith. Welcome back to the Bullard podcast.

Speaker 10 Hey, Tim. Thanks for having me.
It's been a while.

Speaker 8 What's up, girl? Jimmy said he's trying to make it to the Georgia early vote to get his vote in for Kamala. That's wonderful.
Do you have any Jimmy Carter stories?

Speaker 8 And it's a little before your time, but I don't know.

Speaker 10 No, I do. I do.

Speaker 10 You you know I spent the last day that Pete Budigedge was in the presidential race in Plains Georgia and I got to meet Jimmy Carter who was absolutely lovely I actually wrote about this in my book I knew that I read the book I knew that I'd forgotten that he had sat down with Pete and told Pete you know you did a good run but it's time to drop out then we get to this cafe sits down and his staff had been like absolutely no press for him and the first thing he does when he sees the press is asks asks each of them to introduce themselves, say what outlet they're with, and like to ask him any questions.

Speaker 10 And like, what was I going to do? Tackle the then 96-year-old or 95-year-old former president? No, but truly lovely and like really a model ex-presidency and just a very, very virtuous man.

Speaker 10 So fingers crossed for him that he gets his last wish here.

Speaker 8 His last vote, did he give any good quotes? Did he make any news on that guy, Gal?

Speaker 10 You know what? He sort of did, but the press press didn't really pick up on it. He said to the press, like, well, you know, he's got to figure out what he's going to do now or something like that.

Speaker 10 And it sort of alluded to the fact that Pete was going to drop out that evening, but we hadn't yet announced it to the press, and the press was absolutely shocked when we actually told them.

Speaker 10 But he was lovely. Plains is a really lovely town, just small, picturesque.
And again, just a real model ex-presidency.

Speaker 8 I love Jimmy Carter. That's sweet.
And this is why us flacks, well, me, I guess not you. You're still flacker, flip into the media, you know, because we don't miss things like that.

Speaker 8 We won't miss a story like that, like these journalists did, you know, just letting Jimmy fly right over their head. He gave them the scoop.
95-year-old Jimmy Carter gave him the scoop.

Speaker 8 They didn't get it. All right.
For people who are listening to this after the VP debate, we're going to get to RFK, Cum Liz Cum strategy, Eric Adams, maybe Joe Burrows' haircuts.

Speaker 8 You can just fast forward a little bit. For the sickos who listen to this as soon as they drop, we're going to do a little debate preview.

Speaker 8 Liz has advised Tim Ryan and watched the Vance Senate debates with him last time.

Speaker 8 Your old boss, Pete Budigig, was at Camp Northstar, apparently, dressed as Vance in a, according to Politico, a cheap red tie instead of camp casual attire. And so I'm just wondering,

Speaker 8 what are you expecting here from both Tim Walls and JD Vance?

Speaker 10 Well, the only thing I'll say about the inside of that debate prep, which I wasn't in debate prep, but obviously keep in touch with Pete, people around him who were there, is that that tie was very red and very, very cheap.

Speaker 10 It was horrifying, you know, because Pete has such a distinct visual brand, like the white rolled-up shirt, rolled up sleeves, the blue tie.

Speaker 10 Seeing him in this eyesore of a red tie was very, very disorienting.

Speaker 8 Hold on, I'm sorry. I've got to challenge you there as a host.
Pete had awful outfits before he came out.

Speaker 8 The pictures of Pete as a closeted mayor, Pete, the offenses against our sartorial eyes are like the equivalent of Donald Trump's offenses against the Constitution and democracy.

Speaker 8 I mean, that is how awful his outfits were. So he probably had it still in his closet.
Well,

Speaker 10 they were pretty bad. But I, unfortunately, I never met in the closet Pete.
I only met out of the closet Pete when he was dressing slightly better.

Speaker 10 I wouldn't say that he's like, you know, the political equivalent of Tom Ford, but he has a good uniform. It works for him.
And he does not wear these like eyesore, bright red polyester ties.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 10 So, okay, the debate.

Speaker 10 What I would say is like generally vice presidential debates really, really, really don't matter.

Speaker 10 And I have seen some people saying, and I do think that there could be an argument that this one matters a little bit more than previous ones.

Speaker 10 And David Axel Roddy made the point yesterday that, you know, with a president as old as Donald Trump, the vice president matters more. We clearly saw that with Joe Biden.

Speaker 10 And so more eyes will be on J.D. Vance.
I think eyes will be on J.D.

Speaker 10 Vance as a possible, God help us, if Trump gets elected, too old to serve, but also eyes on Vance as sort of the natural heir to the MAGA movement if Trump loses.

Speaker 10 With Tim Walls, I also think that there could be more eyes on him than usual with a VP candidate, just because the nature of the shortened campaign, which is that a lot of voters still don't have completely formed opinions on Kamala Harris.

Speaker 10 You know, I think it's a third of voters say they want to hear more about her. So he can help fill in some of those blanks, hopefully fill them in very positively.

Speaker 10 But, you know, from all indications, as someone who unfortunately watches 2022 Senate debates, Vance is a very good debater.

Speaker 10 And he's gotten a lot of practice on this during this campaign because he takes a lot of questions from the media. He goes, you know, essentially everywhere.

Speaker 10 He goes on hostile news networks and takes questions and gaggles at his events. And that is really, really good practice.
We have seen less of that from Walls.

Speaker 10 And so he's probably going to be less sharp than Vance in that regard.

Speaker 10 And it warmed my flack heart when one of the first things he said when Kamala picked him was he warned her that he's a bad debater.

Speaker 10 So he did a very good job early on of setting the expectations very low for his performance.

Speaker 8 So I want to get into the Vance, but since you're talking about that, let's talk about the Wall's side of this because I'm kind of torn.

Speaker 8 And I'm wondering what your advice would be if you were in the room there at Camp North Star.

Speaker 8 Because, on the one hand, I could see an argument that Wall's goal is really just to be appealing be affable you know assuage any concerns about the harris walls ticket that they're going to be you know whatever marxist far leftists you know talk a little bit about kind of mainstream policy priorities that they want not get into the mud with jd vance roll his eyes out him a couple times and move forward and then There's another part of me, the attack dog part of me, that's like, JD, just, there's so much material.

Speaker 8 I mean, like everybody goes to America's Hitler, but he's literally flip-flopped on everything. And he was me.
He was Tim Miller.

Speaker 8 He was like a climate change, pro-gay rights, pro-immigration, like Republican, like five years ago. And so like, where, how would you try to strike that balance if you were Walls?

Speaker 10 Yeah. So you do need to reassure people about the Harris-Walls agenda, that it's not going to be some, you know, crazy communist leftist thing.

Speaker 10 And that is, it's not a concern, but people do have questions like, what do they stand for? Where in the Democratic Party spectrum are they?

Speaker 10 And, you know, the people I know in my life who are undecided, that's sort of the questions that they have.

Speaker 10 Like, is this going to be a radical ticket or just sort of like a make things better Democratic Party that is more sort of broad-based? So I think that's important.

Speaker 10 But I do think it is pretty important to try to draw JD off sides, right? To put him on defense. And I don't know specifically how Wallace is going to do that.

Speaker 10 I don't have any insight into it that they could go at the flip-flops, right?

Speaker 10 And I think JD Vance is someone who does not like having his integrity questioned, who does not like having his motives questioned. And we've seen him get defensive in interviews when that happens.

Speaker 10 You know, a good recent example was with Dana Bash when she sort of called him out for just lying and about the Haitians eating cats and household pets and all that whole episode.

Speaker 10 So I think you can go at that, but you can also go at, you know, you can go at the weird angle, right? This is a guy who, I mean, I'm 41 years old. I just had a kid a year ago.

Speaker 10 So like, reproduction, fertility have been on the brain a lot lately, but this is a guy who talks more about like my fertility, my reproductive choices than I've ever thought about it.

Speaker 10 And that's, there's something really weird about that. And I think that they can also go at like the extreme part.

Speaker 10 Another piece, though, that I think Walls is uniquely suited to do is to do sort of a Midwest mono a mono, right?

Speaker 10 They're both sort of, you know, from the Midwest, obviously slightly different regions, but J.D.

Speaker 10 Vance is someone who grew up there, who profited off it with his book, you know, went to sort of Silicon Valley, I think, to be sort of like a Midwest planer, and then really went to Washington and sold the Midwest out.

Speaker 10 Since going to Washington, he hasn't fought for the people he grew up with.

Speaker 10 He hasn't worked to, you know, combat the addiction crisis, worked to improve public education options for people who are stuck and

Speaker 10 need more opportunities. He hasn't worked to help working middle class people.
He voted for Trump's tax cuts.

Speaker 10 And I think that something like that, sort of a face-off where he goes to what a lot of people see as Fancy's core strength, I think that can be a smart route too.

Speaker 10 Curious what you think, the sort of best way.

Speaker 8 A lot there. Yeah.
Yeah. There's your cat just did like an Olympic jump over your shoulder off of the, off the table, which like was really cool for the YouTube viewers.

Speaker 8 So that kind of distracted me for a second.

Speaker 10 Well, I mean, I'm talking about J.D. Vance.
So like he's, he's. as anti-cat a politician as you can get.
So they're probably going to be a little exercise in the background.

Speaker 8 That's true. On brand.
Probably going to be exercised.

Speaker 8 So on the wall side, I would be a little nervous to do the man-o-man thing.

Speaker 8 I see what you're saying, you know, and in the speeches, you know, I kind of like that riff about how, oh, he thinks he's, he says he's from Midwest, but he like then went to Yale and then was a hedge fund guy and has a sugar daddy and then sold it, wrote a book selling everybody out.

Speaker 8 And I've been working in the community. I like it in this sense of, like, I'm a regular person that actually cares about the community and cares about you.
I worry a little bit about the macho.

Speaker 8 Tim Walls, like, despite being a football coach, I don't think that he's going to read macho to like the young men that you know what I mean?

Speaker 10 When I said, I didn't mean man, I didn't mean, I meant like mano amano. Mano amano.

Speaker 8 Midwestern, Midwestern Midwest.

Speaker 8 Not like, not like who's the alpha dog.

Speaker 10 No, this is when you can tell you were a Republican. Cause like you think that this is, like, this is not what Democrats do.
We just really don't do like dick measuring contests on debate stages.

Speaker 10 I know that's like all you guys are about. It's all about these masculinity contests, but no, that is not at all what I was talking about.

Speaker 8 No measuring needed here.

Speaker 8 I hear you. Okay.
So the Midwestern thing, I think that's right.

Speaker 8 To be honest, I think that it's situational. I think that the low expectations Tim Walls set for himself are like real.

Speaker 8 If you watch some of his debates, he is just okay. Like, it's not his strength, right? Like, JD is an oily debate team kid, you know? Yeah.
Tim Walls is not.

Speaker 8 Like, Tim Walls is going to do way better at the tailgate, like being a normal human than JD Vance is. But JD might be better in this setting, in a studio.

Speaker 8 And so if the team feels like Walls can like nail a couple of punches, what I probably would just do is prep him on a couple things and have him get really, really right on it and only do those because you do not want a freewheeling insult contest tonight.

Speaker 8 Like that's a loser for Tim Walls. Like he's like JD is unappealing in every imaginable way, but he's going to probably come away as the winner in an insult contest.

Speaker 10 Yeah, no, I agree with that. And he's very poised and as unlikable as I generally find him, he's good in a debate setting as you saw in 2022.

Speaker 8 Yeah, talk about that. So for people that didn't watch 2022 debates, I mean, I mean, Tim Ryan ended up way overperforming Democrats.
And Ohio's a red state.

Speaker 8 He loses still, although, and JD did way worse than Mike Dewine, like by 12 points or something. Right.
So, you know, there's something to learn there.

Speaker 8 JD was not like, did not like the room on fire in Ohio. But at the debates, Ryan is also kind of like, it has an everyman vibe in a different way than Tim Walls does.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 And JD would counter punch on these hits, like on abortion and stuff. And like he did so pretty effectively.
Like objectively, it was pretty effective.

Speaker 8 Like to me, it was very unappealing because I find him unappealing in every imaginable way. But like if you're just scoring on points, he was pretty good at like parrying the attacks, I thought.

Speaker 10 Yeah. And that's a really good point is the art of the counter punch.
You know, to people who don't sort of do debate prep, don't really follow it is

Speaker 10 where you can really see a skilled debater is not someone who can just attack their opponent. It's not just someone who can sort of respond well to an attack.

Speaker 10 Someone who can take an attack against them, turn it around and go on offense offense and counter punch. And he did do that very well.

Speaker 10 You know, I think Times yesterday had something going back to Vance's debates and talked about when Tim Ryan and one of the debates accused Vance of supporting the great replacement theory.

Speaker 10 And Vance turned it around and called him Ryan a scumbag and that this was

Speaker 10 imperiling the safety of his family and all of this. And he did it much more elegantly than I just did.
But we did see that he was able to counter punch pretty well.

Speaker 10 And on abortion, I got to say, I can't remember the exact exchange.

Speaker 8 The abortion exchange, this is what it was.

Speaker 8 Because it was remember, like right when Donald returned, it was that story of the young, I was going to call her a young woman, she was a child, who had to go across 10 years old.

Speaker 8 Yeah. She had to go across state lines to get an abortion because she'd been raped because of, you know, the crackdown.
And obviously a horrific story and a totally legit hit by Ryan.

Speaker 8 And Vance is like, well, but the culprit in this case was an undocumented immigrant. Right.
Yes. And so then he just totally flipped it into immigration.
Like he did the opposite of what Trump did.

Speaker 8 Like his dimension, when he was asked about immigration and started talking about his crowd sizes, he was asked about abortion and flipped it into immigration. Like Vance is going to be good at that.

Speaker 10 If I recall correctly, I think Biden did that in the debate.

Speaker 8 Both Biden and Trump did that.

Speaker 8 Yeah, Biden did the exact opposite. Took abortion into immigration.
Yeah, wrong. That's wrong.
That's not what you're going for. If you're a Democrat, you're trying to take immigration into abortion.

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Speaker 3 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com to learn how to strengthen your home and help protect it from damage.

Speaker 1 The work may cost less than you think and can often be done in just a few days.

Speaker 6 Strengthen your home and help protect your family.

Speaker 7 Get prepared today and worry less tomorrow.

Speaker 3 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com.

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Speaker 9 Anibay has designed the only fully machine washable sofa from top to bottom. The stain-resistant performance fabric slip covers and cloud-like frame duvet can go straight into your wash.

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Speaker 8 The thing about vants that is interesting to me tonight, I've heard a lot of people talk about, but I'm interested in your take on, is it is two women who are the moderators.

Speaker 8 He likes to attack the media, right? You have Nora O'Donnell and Margaret Brennan. You mentioned his childless cat lady and like his kind of seething resentment for women.

Speaker 8 I noticed in Playbook this morning that he had deadbeat dad Jason Miller as part of his debate prep team. So I do think it's interesting that it's cool for J.D.

Speaker 8 Vance to hang out with people who have children and then don't take care of them or pay their alimony, but he really loathes women who choose not to have children or can't have children.

Speaker 8 So I think that's an interesting moral choice by J.D. Vance.

Speaker 8 But if I was his team tonight, that would be the thing I'd be the most worried about is him like lashing out at Nora and Margaret in a way that feels misogynistic and just totally reinforces the childless cat lady

Speaker 8 stuff.

Speaker 10 Oh, yeah. But I mean, they've telegraphed a fair amount about their Jabe prep, specifically that they're doing a lot of it.

Speaker 10 And I would be very, very surprised if he does not come very prepared for that, very prepared for that dynamic and very scripted.

Speaker 10 I don't think we're going to see him lashing out and having a tone-deaf moment on that, but you know, I could be wrong.

Speaker 8 This is my final thing on the debate. Looking forward, your initial point about how VP debates don't usually matter.
The caveats to that,

Speaker 8 one of them, which you mentioned is Donald Trump would be the oldest president of all time if he was president. And so that makes the JD question a little more relevant.

Speaker 8 The other is that it might be the last debate.

Speaker 8 Like it might be the debate that that's never been the case, right? Where the VP debate was the last debate because there's always then another one or two presidential debates after it.

Speaker 8 And if Donald Trump continues to chicken out and refuse to debate Kamala Harris after she just whooped him in the first debate, then it could be kind of the last thing that people are left with.

Speaker 8 And so maybe it has a little bit more importance because of that. I don't know.
Maybe not. What do you think?

Speaker 10 Maybe, maybe. I don't know.

Speaker 10 The last debate sort of faded, I think, fairly quickly, minus the cats and dogs being eaten.

Speaker 10 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But

Speaker 10 I don't know, we'll see.

Speaker 10 I'm skeptical that this moves the needle much, but I'm also the same person that before the Biden-Trump debate went on a podcast with Dan Pfeiffer and said I was optimistic about

Speaker 10 how Biden would perform. In my defense, in my defense, my expectations were so low that I did not think it would take much to meet them.

Speaker 10 So, but I'm just saying, take everything I say, all my expectations, about debates with a grain of salt.

Speaker 8 This is why we have the yin and yang. That's why I have you on because I would not say I was optimistic in that case.
Or for Kamala, by the way. I was wrong.

Speaker 8 I was deeply nervous about Kamala in the first debate just because of lack of reps. And she shone.
She shone.

Speaker 10 She was so good.

Speaker 8 Right. She stepped up to the plate.
hoping we see the same for Wall. So I guess like one final dick measuring thing, though, related to debates, it is crazy that Trump won't debate her again, right?

Speaker 8 I mean, like, how do you, how do you run the macho manhood campaign with Dana White and Hulk Hogan and then refuse to look at Kamala Harris in the first debate, get bitch slapped, and then refuse to debate her again?

Speaker 10 Well, I mean, I think it's because he got bitch slapped. And he can fall back on the fact that he said he would do a June debate and a September debate and that he met his obligations.

Speaker 10 And if I were him, if I were his team, I would say absolutely not. Don't go out again.

Speaker 10 But there's no indication that MAGA World punishes him for being inconsistent, that they punish him from, you know, backing away from the fights he says he's going to take on.

Speaker 10 So, you know, I don't think he's going to pay a political price.

Speaker 8 The weakest alpha in history. It's really unbelievable.

Speaker 8 Right.

Speaker 10 That's the one thing. It does give Kamala Harris just an opportunity to continue to dog him on that, and it's going to bother him.

Speaker 8 One thing I didn't get to yesterday, Kamala on Friday was Down at the Border and gave a speech.

Speaker 8 And I know that used to something you and I were talking about a bunch in during a special election, the Tom Swazi election up in New York, which you were watching closely, and kind of the approach he took to immigration that was a little bit different.

Speaker 8 And it seems like that she's taking a bit out of his playbook. I just want to play one segment of what she was saying down at the border.

Speaker 10 There are consequential issues at stake in this election.

Speaker 10 And one is the security of our border.

Speaker 10 The United States is a sovereign nation.

Speaker 10 And I believe we have a duty to set rules at our border and to enforce them. And I take that responsibility very seriously.

Speaker 8 She's down there. It was serious.
It was solemn. They have an ad, a very aggressive ad that they're running that was paired with it.
There are two schools of thought on this.

Speaker 8 That's why I wanted to bring it up. The Swansea school of thought was, let's try to cut against the vulnerability here.
Let's talk about it. Let's demonstrate I'm going to take it seriously.

Speaker 8 Let's punch a little bit at the Republicans for not actually doing anything on this. And then there is the other school of thought that's like, anytime you're talking about immigration, you're losing.

Speaker 10 Literally talk about anything else what do you think i completely disagree with the second one if voters are telling you that something is a top issue for them voters are telling you that they are concerned about crime if voters are telling you that they are concerned about immigration the worst thing you can do as a politician elected official is to tell them that their concerns aren't valid, that they're imagined, that they're fomented purely by Fox News.

Speaker 10 And unfortunately, that has been the approach of some Democrats on these issues in the past.

Speaker 10 In 2022, in New York, for instance, we got absolutely hosed and all these congressional races in part because Democrats did not take voters' concerns on crime seriously.

Speaker 10 The Swazi special election, which I was an advisor on, could have been a repeat of that.

Speaker 10 If Swazi had taken sort of the DC mindset, or frankly, like the advice of a lot of people around here, like I got so many calls from these big political brains saying, why is he playing on the Republicans' issues?

Speaker 10 Why is he just talking about abortion? And you know why he wasn't just talking about abortion? Because if he did, he would not be addressing by far and away the number one issue.

Speaker 10 And so what he did was one,

Speaker 10 and what every Democrat should do on this issue, where immigration is a top issue for voters, is to one, meet voters where they are, say, yes, we understand it's a concern.

Speaker 10 Two, talk about the solutions. And the solutions start with one, securing our border.

Speaker 10 And then two, you know, making sure that we have some compassion, you know, that we allow people who are fleeing violence and persecution to have a good asylum process to make sure that we are providing a pathway to citizenship for our dreamers.

Speaker 10 But three, and this is the really important thing, is you said that we took this on to minimize the vulnerability. We did more than that.
Tom could not have had better instincts on this issue.

Speaker 10 And he said, I don't want to run away from this issue. I don't want to minimize the vulnerability.
I want to go on the offense on it. And that's exactly what he did.

Speaker 10 And I remember one of the first weeks of the campaign, his opponent did an event outside a big migrant facility in Queens.

Speaker 10 And we saw it being announced and we decided, you know what?

Speaker 8 Let's go crash the event.

Speaker 10 Not literally crash. We basically just waited till she was done.
Then he went out and stood in front of all the cameras.

Speaker 8 Oh, this is like what I used to do outside of the W. Wasserman Schultz event for you back when I was an RNC rat fucker.

Speaker 10 Right, exactly. But his approach was actually successful in this instance.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 it was one of those things where like it was sort of meta where when we're preparing it in the minutes up to it, I'm like, this could either be a complete disaster or this could be like a turning point.

Speaker 10 This could then be sort of a model for what Democrats do.

Speaker 10 And when he did it, he just went and did like a total masterclass and talked about how it was really the Republicans who owned the border issue now because they, under, you know, Donald Trump's direction, killed our best shot at a bipartisan border deal in decades.

Speaker 10 Because they believe that more chaos at the border, you know, more chaos in cities where, you know, tens of thousands of migrants are being sent is better politically for them than a solution.

Speaker 10 And from then on, you know, New York TV loved it, obviously, but it started to trickle out nationally. And then you saw other people jumping on this.

Speaker 10 And there's no doubt that it was a really brilliant political move by him. And it is one that I wish more Democrats were adopting.

Speaker 10 But I do think sometimes Democrats are a little bit scared of their shadow on this. They're a little bit scared of the activist groups, right?

Speaker 10 They don't want to be called racist or, you know, xenophobic. They're also scared of talking about an issue where Democrats generally have been losing.

Speaker 10 But the only way we're going to win the issue is if we go out and try to win it. Like, we're not going to win the issue of immigration.

Speaker 10 We're not going to mitigate voters' concerns by pretending it doesn't exist, by telling voters, you know, they only care about this because of Fox News. We've got to go take it head on.

Speaker 10 Not only that, call out the fact that the Republicans are the ones who are.

Speaker 8 torpedoing any solutions just because they think it will help them politically and i also feel like combo has like a little bit of like leeway to do that without worrying about pushback from the left.

Speaker 8 I mean, partly because it's such a short sprint, partially just because of the credibility that she's gained. You know, I don't know.
And it feels like she's been doing that pretty well. I don't know.

Speaker 8 What do you think? Yeah.

Speaker 10 No, I agree. I think she has been.
But generally, when I talk to Democrats, whether they're running for statewide congressional office, I do still sense a hesitance about it.

Speaker 10 And I just tell them, please, like, I will send you the Tom Swasey talking points. You know, Chris Murphy, Chris Murphy did a great memo on this after Tom Swasey won.
That was perfect, pitch perfect.

Speaker 10 You know, I think Chris Murphy and Tom Swazzi are the best messengers in our party on this.

Speaker 10 And I would encourage like sort of anyone who's curious about the messaging and the best way to do it to go back and read some of their interviews and their memos on it because it is a great way of how we can take something that is a very big weakness for us and actually go on the offense, neutralize it, and maybe even win it.

Speaker 8 Well, we have the Liz strategist hat on. You were maybe the biggest proponent of the go-everywhere strategy that Pete executed.

Speaker 8 Obviously, Pete was talented enough to execute a go-everywhere strategy and have it be effective.

Speaker 8 Not everybody can go and do a million podcasts and do a million interviews and not have it hurt themselves, as evidenced by J.D.

Speaker 8 Vance, who seemed to spend a lot of time going everywhere on podcasts and having it have a detrimental result. So the go-everywhere strategy does not always work.

Speaker 8 But we've been having a lot of conversation here at the Bullwork about this, about how the vice president and Tim Walls have not really been going everywhere.

Speaker 8 And I don't care about like the DC elite media whining about how they aren't doing interviews with them, but I would like to see them in more in different kinds of environments and different kinds of interviews getting to different kinds of audiences.

Speaker 8 We've seen a little bit of that over the last couple of days. Kamala was on All the Smoke, which is a podcast by these two basketball players, Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson.
That was on yesterday.

Speaker 8 I listened to that on the air flight up here. I I thought she did really well.
Walls was on like the We Rate Dogs YouTube, which I don't know.

Speaker 8 I guess

Speaker 8 if you're into dogs, maybe you liked that. It was gauzy.
It was nice. There's no harm done at minimum.
What did you think about those two activations? Should they be doing more?

Speaker 8 You know, I've been having people message me and say, Tim, you wanted them to do this. And now they did.
Look. And I'm like, well, just doing one of these things doesn't really check the box.

Speaker 8 I'd like to see like 20 or 50, but I don't know. What do you think on that?

Speaker 10 Yeah, you're right. I mean, for those things to work, it's got to be sort of part of an all of the above strategy, right?

Speaker 10 With Mayor Pete, we weren't just like putting him on a podcast about West Wing rewatches or whatever in a vacuum.

Speaker 10 You know, he was doing that on top of talking to the New Yorker, going on MSNBC, doing every possible local Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina interview that he could, you know, because those are the early states, Nevada as well.

Speaker 10 Sure. Look, you've got to really have an all-of-the-above strategy in today's fragmented media environment if you want to reach people and you've got to meet people where they are.

Speaker 10 So I watched some of the clips from the vice president's interview in the podcast yesterday, and I thought she was really good. She was very comfortable.

Speaker 10 She seemed loose, but she was also good talking about pretty thorny issues, like attacks on her race, questions about her blended family, questions about childhood trauma, you know, not exactly light topics.

Speaker 10 And what it indicated to me is that this is someone who, when 30% of people want to learn more about you, should be going out and doing more interviews. Now, I want to be very clear.

Speaker 10 I am not second-guessing their strategy. They've got a really great team around them.
Got, you know, one of the best communications strategists in democratic politics, Stephanie Cutter there.

Speaker 10 So I'm not here to be an armchair quarterback.

Speaker 10 But what I can say is that when I wrote about this in my book, Any Given Tuesday, this sort of dynamic and what was behind us doing it for Pete, what was behind us doing it for Pete was that the idea of like a 37-year-old, openly gay, mayor of a town of 100,000 people was so absurd, right?

Speaker 10 That he'd be running for president that we needed to get him out there in front of as many audiences as possible because he was a very good communicator.

Speaker 10 And if people could see him, then they could be like, you know what? Actually, I sort of get it. I could see this guy being president.

Speaker 10 But on the flip side, if you don't go out there, And like with Kamala Harris, there's 30% of voters want to know more about her.

Speaker 10 If she doesn't go out there and fill that void, someone else is going to. And as I say in my book, either you feed the beast or the beast feeds on you.

Speaker 10 And so I think it's important to be very conscious of that dynamic. And I think what we're seeing is baby steps toward doing a more robust interview media strategy.
And I think it would be very smart.

Speaker 10 And to your point, it doesn't mean sitting down with Bloomberg. It doesn't mean sitting down with, I don't know,

Speaker 8 sorry, actually. Exactly.

Speaker 10 Right. But it means doing a ton of local media, but doing some things that hit some of the elites.
You know, there's no harm in doing the daily podcast, right?

Speaker 10 So many people listen to that around the country. But then doing some stuff that's lighter, maybe more entertainment, stuff that's more sports related, whatever.

Speaker 10 Just, you just, you really, it's like a buffet. It's a buffet.
You just want to grab, like, have a little bit of everything, do a little bit of everything.

Speaker 10 And the more you do, the more people you're going to reach. And it doesn't all need to be like super serious interviews.

Speaker 8 But you could do, for example, like a very not that serious kind of like breezy, never Trumper, kind of gay YouTuber, you know, who you know will be, we'll have a pretty friendly interview with you.

Speaker 8 Like that might be one idea. I don't know.
We're just kind of brainstorming.

Speaker 10 And the thing about the media environment now is you can't like do one interview and expect it to dominate in the way that it has in the past.

Speaker 10 Like an evening news interview, like a sit down with Katie Kirk and, you know, when Palin did that, and that then dominated the news for days.

Speaker 10 But one thing we've seen is that you could do an interview with a breezy, gay, never-Trump Republican, have a really good moment, or maybe a really bad moment, but let's say really good moment.

Speaker 10 And it's then suddenly, it's picked up everywhere. You know, the provenance now of clips doesn't really matter.

Speaker 10 It's like if you have a really good moment or a really bad moment, it could be on a podcast that two people listen to, but if it is.

Speaker 10 remarkable in one way or another, it can go everywhere and travel everywhere. So I think that there are a number of different ways to, I was going to say, to skin a cat, but

Speaker 10 I've got this one over here, but there are a number of ways.

Speaker 8 That's not an appropriate metaphor on JD Vance debate day. You're not going to be an armchair quarterback.
I am. I'm a podcast host now, so I'm going to an armchair quarterback with my losing record.

Speaker 8 So you can push back. I do think there's just like a little bit of caution that I don't quite understand.
Like she was so good at all this book. There are a couple of things I learned.

Speaker 8 I've been consuming every Kamala thing. She talked about her being a child of divorce in a way that I haven't heard her talk about it before.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 And like, and I thought that was very human and vulnerable, and like it's an experience a lot of people have. I liked that.

Speaker 8 She talked about praying every morning, and you know, she talks about praying, but just like this notion that she wakes up every morning and prays.

Speaker 8 I'm sure she's said that before at a religious function, but just kind of casually talking about it, like a couple of guys on a podcast, like it was sort of showing her in a new light.

Speaker 8 That's like, oh, wait, no, this is like legit. Like, this is something that she legitimately cares about, right? Yeah.

Speaker 8 And so I think that there are like a hundred places like all the Smoke where the interview is going to be just more revealing than it is challenging. And I could use like

Speaker 8 Forex what we're getting.

Speaker 10 You know, Matt Bayh had a good column about this in the Washington Post that a lot of the traditional interviews now sort of fail viewers because it's become a game where it's like you're just trying to challenge the candidate and get a viral moment.

Speaker 8 Or a get you on a hypocrisy. You used to be for this and now you're for this.
It's like, okay, great. Yeah.
It's a Tim Russert. We're all doing a fake Tim Russert imitation, you know, 30 years later.

Speaker 10 And then the candidate goes in with a script of like, these are the moments I'm going to have.

Speaker 10 And like, it's sort of them talking past each other, but you don't really learn more about the person running for office in a way that you could with a longer form interview.

Speaker 10 Like, you know, we saw with the podcast yesterday.

Speaker 10 To me, it does speak to why you should sort of go outside of like just doing CNN, MSNBC, you know, traditional news and do longer form things because people can learn a lot more about you beyond just the policy bullet points.

Speaker 10 And given that people are still want to know more about Kamala Harris, who she is, what she believes, whether they should be comfortable with her, I feel like doing those sorts of things where people can see, I don't know, a little bit more to,

Speaker 10 I don't want to say like her soul, but like see a little bit more about what she's about, I feel like that would be really helpful.

Speaker 10 Because then people could see, okay, she's not like a radical leftist. She's not someone who wants to remake, you know, the fabric of American society.

Speaker 10 She's just wants to go out, help the middle class, help working middle class Americans get by, and I think it would be very good for her.

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Speaker 8 You've been also doing some advising to the DNC on third-party stuff and on RFK. So we have to do a little bit of RFK being so weird content here.

Speaker 8 This weekend on Saturday, he was at an event called Rescue the Republic. The types of people at this event were really something.

Speaker 8 You had Rob Schneider, the aforementioned Rob Schneider, the failed SNL actor who said that Dakembe Mutumbo died because of the vaccine. He was on the top of the list there.

Speaker 8 You had Jordan Peterson, the crazy pro-Russia Colonel Douglas McGregor, who's got some cable news stuff. Tulsi Gabbard was there.
Russell Brand was there. He's found God, apparently.

Speaker 8 He was doing the Lord's Prayer. Lara Logan, who has totally gone cuckoo with her conspiracies on various things.

Speaker 8 Jimmy Dore, your buddy, far leftist, who's now kind of jumped the horseshoe over to the right, my man Pizzagate Jack Pasobiak. Like, this is the crowd that RFK is hanging out with.

Speaker 8 I just want to play one clip from his remarks there.

Speaker 12 During COVID, we saw the greatest attack on America's liberties and our constitutional right,

Speaker 12 and at any time in American history.

Speaker 8 That's Bobby Kennedy's son, who thinks that the greatest attack on America's liberties in American history was COVID?

Speaker 8 Did he not read anything that his father said during the civil rights struggle in the 60s?

Speaker 10 You know, the thing about these guys, I know you sent me like a tweet from Del Bigtreat comparing this event to Woodstock, right?

Speaker 10 And these guys like think that they're like such edge lords, that they're so provocative, that they're truth tellers. And like, I will give them this.

Speaker 10 They're very weird and off-putting, but like ultimately the thing about them is they're so predictable. They're so boring.
And like, how many times, like,

Speaker 10 you and I could have scripted that in advance, or we could have told you exactly what they're going to say. They're going to say mass mandates are bad.
The jab is bad.

Speaker 10 They're going to make some, I don't know, edgy jokes about trans people because, oh, no one has ever done that before. They're going to talk about how their free speech is under attack.

Speaker 10 And like, I'm so glad that.

Speaker 10 RF Jr. dropped out of the race.
So because I didn't have to listen to him as much. I'm sort of annoyed that I still have to listen to him.

Speaker 10 But I mean, this is just, if you are trying to reach people in the middle, persuadable voters, I just don't think that this is their crew that's going to do it.

Speaker 8 I don't know. I have to disagree with you, Liz.
There's one thing that I don't think I could have scripted. Here's RFK at the Trump event in Michigan over the weekend.

Speaker 12 The average girl in this country is now reaching puberty between 10 and 13 years old. That's six years younger than a couple generations ago.
And it is the youngest of any nation in the world.

Speaker 12 We are destroying our children. And that was the major reason, his commitment, Donald Trump's commitment to make America healthy again.

Speaker 8 Couple questions. Why do J.D.
Vance and RFK keep talking about women's vaginas and their periods? And two, is Donald Trump committing to make America healthy again? What is is that?

Speaker 10 Okay, thank you. Those are two things I was thinking.
One, I don't know. It is so, so creepy.
Like, again, these are people who talk about, you know, my lady parts more than I think about them.

Speaker 10 And, you know, given RFK Jr.'s history with women, which has certainly been in the news recently, that's probably something I would stay away from.

Speaker 10 I mean, he might consider himself an expert in some of these matters, but

Speaker 8 there is the little black book. There is the little black book.

Speaker 10 I mean, and God love him, I guess.

Speaker 8 I mean, not his poor wife, but yeah, I mean, I guess he has seen a lot of vaginas, it seems like.

Speaker 10 Then the idea that Donald Trump is the one who's going to make America healthy again, like, give me a fucking break. Okay.

Speaker 10 Donald Trump is a guy who tried repeatedly to repeal the Affordable Care Act, which is, you know, expanded health care to millions and millions of people.

Speaker 10 And there's no indication that he wouldn't try to do that again if he were elected.

Speaker 10 Two, it was under under his administration that you saw all these deregulations where, you know, corporations could dump more crap into the public waterways, where corporations could put more crap into food.

Speaker 10 And three, like, let's be real, that guy is like a walking Big Mac. You know, he's what, even when he caters his White House dinners, it's like almost exclusively with fast food.

Speaker 10 We know that his diet consists 100% of fast food. Like, what, there's nothing about that man that screams healthy.
There's nothing about his record that screams healthy.

Speaker 10 And I think the whole Maha thing, which is like the worst like acronym, Make America Healthy Again, is like just rooted in, I don't know, trying to paper on a reason for Kennedy to attach himself to Donald Trump and be relevant.

Speaker 10 And the reality is, why is RFT Jr. attaching himself to Donald Trump? Because he wants to be relevant.
And the Democratic Party rightly is like, you're a fucking freak. Like you are so off-putting.

Speaker 10 You're positions on so many issues. Your personal conduct is really beyond the pale.
And, like, you know, good reddance. Like, go over there, have fun with it.

Speaker 10 But I think that embracing him is a strategic mistake from Donald Trump.

Speaker 10 And RFK's embrace of Donald Trump is a betrayal of the people who were true believers and who did think that RFK really was maybe someone who's going to shake up the system and try to end chronic disease.

Speaker 10 And it's really, he's, you know, selling him his soul because he wants to get a few more cable hits and have a little bit more of a platform.

Speaker 8 This is a great point. He doesn't want to shake out the system.
He's not an outsider. He desperately wants to get back in the system.
This is his way back in. He wants to be relevant.

Speaker 8 That's a very, that's a very important point. I'm glad you mentioned that.

Speaker 10 He made the ultimate backroom deal, the backroom deal that he

Speaker 10 ran against the entire campaign. And like, this one other thing he said over the weekend, it was hilarious.

Speaker 10 Like he said, the Democrats, you know, they spent tens of millions of dollars against me to make me seem like a crazy person. And it's like, no, we spent zero dollars.

Speaker 10 Like you just made yourself seem like a crazy person. When I started at this project, we thought maybe we would have to run ads or do mail.
We didn't run a dime in apps.

Speaker 10 You know what our operation against him was? We had two press people, two press people the entire time.

Speaker 8 Very talented press people, right? Very talented. Very high quality.

Speaker 10 Which goes to show that, you know, on these campaigns, you don't need a cast of a thousands. Granted, not everyone gives you as much material as RFK Jr.

Speaker 10 does, but it was a very traditional, rapid response. And that was enough to really take him from being being fairly positively viewed to being very, very negatively viewed.

Speaker 8 Congrats to the two VHQPP, very high-quality press people that the Democrats paid to just play RFK talking, basically. But very well done.

Speaker 8 I can't let you go without rapid fire on our three favorite topics. Number one, what is happening in the New York Mayor's race? I mean, you know, you, you, this is your world.

Speaker 8 It's not my world, not the New York Mayor's race, I guess, with the New York mayor. And is he going to resign? Is Andrew Cuomo really going to get in? Are other people people going to get in?

Speaker 8 Like just what is happening?

Speaker 10 I don't see him resigning. I really don't see a world in which Eric Adams steps down.
Is Andrew Cuomo going to get in? Oh my God. This is the least favorite question I get.

Speaker 10 You know, obviously I wrote at length about this in my book. Like it wasn't the most pleasant thing to write about.

Speaker 10 Generally, when you're writing a book, you want it to be all about your victories, your successes, all the moments where you're the hero.

Speaker 10 And I ended up opening and closing with the Cuomo stuff because it was really important.

Speaker 10 And I learned a really big lesson, which is that sometimes you get in too deep, you end up doing things you are not proud of, and you end up working for some bad people.

Speaker 10 And I do not think that Andrew Cuomo should be in a position of power again. I don't want to talk about this forever.

Speaker 10 I don't want to be in every story about it, but like, I do feel like people like me have a responsibility to say that, you know, this is a guy who did not.

Speaker 10 conduct himself honorably in office when he was on the way out. I think you can learn a lot about people by how they conduct themselves in the middle of a crisis.

Speaker 10 You saw someone who was, you know, erratic, who was very vindictive, who was untruthful, you know, and who was willing to throw everyone around him under the bus if he thought it would help him just in the slightest bit.

Speaker 10 And I don't think if he runs for mayor, I don't think he would be running for mayor to improve the city.

Speaker 10 He'd be running for mayor to improve his reputation and probably to get revenge on the people he thinks who wronged him. And it's a very Trumpian thing.
It's It's very sad.

Speaker 10 I think he did do some good things as governor, but like we just need to aim a little bit higher. You know, this is the greatest city in the world.
It's the greatest.

Speaker 8 Does the greatest city in the world have anybody running it right now? It seems like half of the leadership is either indicted or resigned. Yeah.
Like, what, like, what's the gossip?

Speaker 8 Are there other people angling? Is there any hope?

Speaker 10 Yeah, I mean, there are no names right now in the race that I think would be good. Some of them I think would be better than others.

Speaker 10 My hope is that there's someone out there who's considering it who is better than the names that are currently in there.

Speaker 8 And we've got some time, right?

Speaker 10 Typically, this doesn't kick off until after the presidential race. And it's like, if South Bend could get a Mayor Pete, like, can't New York get a Mayor Pete?

Speaker 10 Or I would take like half of a Mayor Pete. I would, but like, we do deserve better.

Speaker 10 And like, I really, really, it's really disappointing to me when I see smart people, whether they're in the donor class or sort of the consulting class or even in the media say, well, maybe we need Andrew Cuomo.

Speaker 10 Why? Why? Aim higher, do better.

Speaker 10 And say, you know what, we don't need to settle for move from one scandal-scarred politician in Eric Adams to another scandal-scarred politician in Andrew Cuomo.

Speaker 8 I love that. Okay, the election coming up.
I don't know. We got 30-something days.
I'm a little bit more concerned than other people.

Speaker 8 I mean, I'd rather be Como than the other guy, but it's a little close for comfort. There's some other takes out there.
You might have heard of Professor Alan Lichtman.

Speaker 8 He has a 13 keys system that he uses. He says we don't need to be worried.
Commo is definitely going to win. And so I'm wondering kind of where you fall on the scale.

Speaker 8 Are you satisfied by the 13 keys? Are you concerned about the polling at all? Like what kind of indicators are you looking for?

Speaker 10 I mean, I would put more faith in my cat's political predictions than I would Alan Lichtman. I mean, this is when you realize that social media was maybe a mistake.

Speaker 10 You get these like guys just going out there and suddenly they're masters of the universe.

Speaker 10 They do these like creepy videos, put their faces on t-shirts, develop these completely bizarre, you know, keys to win the election that like, I don't know, are sort of nonsensical.

Speaker 10 So that rant about Alan Lichtman over.

Speaker 10 It's going to be close. It's going to be close.
Sometimes I see people criticizing Kamala Harris.

Speaker 10 and her team for saying that they're the underdogs in the race, but we've got to run like we're the underdogs. There's a lot at stake.
You know, there's a very good shot that we lose the Senate.

Speaker 10 And like, I just, the thought of a Donald Trump winning

Speaker 10 and losing the Senate and Republicans potentially keeping the House is like real nightmare fuel.

Speaker 10 And so I do think people should be thinking that Kamala Harris is behind and be doing everything in their power to help her get ahead.

Speaker 10 And that it's incumbent upon also the campaign to really leave everything on the field.

Speaker 10 And that's why I hope, you know, I think we will see them going out and doing more interviews, being more aggressive in their communications, because you don't want to look back the day after the election and been like, yeah, maybe I should have been doing a little bit more.

Speaker 8 Finally, one addition, we have many cosmic connections, but one of them is Joe Burrow. You're a Cincinnati Bengals fan.
I'm an LSU fan. Right.

Speaker 8 You know, over the summer, he bleached his hair like a late 20s twink going through an early midlife crisis. And since then, the Bengals haven't done that well.
His passing percentage is pretty high.

Speaker 8 So he's doing pretty well, but his completion percentage, excuse me, is pretty high. But I'm concerned.
I'm concerned about Bleach Blonde Joe and the Bengals.

Speaker 8 Are you feeling better or worse about him than you are about Kamala Harris?

Speaker 10 I am concerned about the Bengals. I am not concerned about Bleached Blonde Joe.
You know,

Speaker 10 I'm not going to betray the line. I'm not going to betray anything about our group text, Tim, but we may or may not have a group text that is devoted to Joe Burrow.

Speaker 10 And I may or may not have hit it up the second I saw the Bleach Blonde Joe because, I mean, that photo did some things to me. I was very excited about it.
And like, look, I think.

Speaker 8 So you don't think that he's using this power of, you know, you have two power sources and like one of them is your football power source and one of them is your sexual sexuality power source.

Speaker 8 And maybe the bleach blonde brought them out of balance, into imbalance?

Speaker 10 You know, I actually did think about that yesterday, whether if you are doing this stuff too much, does it then take away from it? But like David Beckham did similar things.

Speaker 10 And I think it's cool for like straight men, for attractive straight men to have some fun with their appearance.

Speaker 10 And in a sport that is as small C conservative as football, I think it, I think it's sort of refreshing to see.

Speaker 10 You know, I got a little nervous in the offseason when I was seeing a lot of him at Fashion Week. And like, I want him to be very focused on football.
I want him to be doing that.

Speaker 10 But I think, you know, if he wants to have some fun with his hair, he's got a gorgeous head of hair, then go for it.

Speaker 10 And, you know, I loved him with his, when he, when it was a little longer last season, I loved it when I was buzzed and bleach blonde. And I love it now when it's the tips.

Speaker 10 And I am pro slim, shady burrow.

Speaker 8 There's our one minute Joe Burrow thirst at the end of the podcast. I know you all are waiting for it.
Thank you to my friend Liz Smith for coming to the podcast.

Speaker 8 We'll be back tomorrow with another Democratic bigwig to do a recap of the debate. Hope to see you all then.

Speaker 8 I also just want to say that as we're coming on, there's a report from Barak Ravid, a senior White House official, telling him that the U.S.

Speaker 8 has indications that Iran is preparing to imminently launch a ballistic missile attack on Israel.

Speaker 8 We had Bill Crystal talking yesterday about how foreign policy is going to be part of this election over the next five weeks.

Speaker 8 So we will be monitoring everything around that and potentially having guests on to discuss it as necessary.

Speaker 8 So, in the meantime, our thoughts are with folks over in Israel and in the Middle East. And we're looking forward to seeing y'all back here tomorrow with another great guest.

Speaker 8 Hopefully, I can get fully walls pilled tonight. We'll see how it goes.
Thanks to Liz Smith. We'll see y'all soon.
Peace.

Speaker 11 My high school days I packed away.

Speaker 11 Set my sights on a bigger stage.

Speaker 11 Jimmy Carter moved to DC

Speaker 11 Georgia boy just like me life seemed easy

Speaker 11 Nothing much that we needed

Speaker 11 That was 1976

Speaker 11 Didn't know who I was yet

Speaker 11 A pretty little blonde-haired girl Stole my heart and changed my world

Speaker 11 Two kids and a moonlit sky.

Speaker 11 Little love on a Friday night.

Speaker 11 Built a fire that just won't quit.

Speaker 11 That was 1976.

Speaker 8 The Bullard Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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