Sam Stein and Susanne Craig: Look Beyond the Polls

Speaker 1 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovny, and Carise Van Houten.

Speaker 1 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 1 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal. Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 1 Why is Adam after the Tanner family? What lengths will he go to? One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 1 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 2 California has millions of homes that could be damaged in a strong earthquake.

Speaker 4 Older homes are especially vulnerable to quake damage, so you may need to take steps to strengthen yours.

Speaker 5 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com to learn how to strengthen your home and help protect it from damage.

Speaker 8 The work may cost less than you think and can often be done in just a few days.

Speaker 9 Strengthen your home and help protect your family.

Speaker 10 Get prepared today and worry less tomorrow.

Speaker 5 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com.

Speaker 11 Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
We've got a double dip today.

Speaker 11 Up in part two will be Suzanne Craig, author of Lucky Loser, about I bet you can guess who, an investigative journalist in the New York Times, the great Suzanne Craig.

Speaker 11 But first, my buddy Sam Stein, managing editor of the Bulwark, and he's managing it quite well. I don't know if you've been to the bulwark.com lately.
We've got a lot of good stuff.

Speaker 11 Make sure you're signed up. Thebulwark.com/slash free trial.
If you want to be a Bulwark Plus member, how are you doing, Sam?

Speaker 12 Oh, good. That's the first compliment you've paid me since I've come to the Bulwark.
So this feels like a good start to the podcast. Thanks.

Speaker 11 Well, I've got to do it live. You know,

Speaker 11 I can't pump you up too much in person. I'm going to make you work for it.
It's been wonderful having you. I want to start with, we have poll mania this morning.
We woke up to pollania.

Speaker 12 Too much.

Speaker 11 Yeah, Amy Walter was on on Tuesday. And Amy was, who I just, I just bumped.
I'm in D.C. right now.
I just bumped into Amy Walter on the sidewalk. You know, just the poll mania.
That happens in D.C.

Speaker 11 And we were just talking. And, you know, her point on Tuesday, which I think is right, is that it's basically a 50-50 race.

Speaker 11 You could call it a 60-40 race if you want, but like, what's if you're a data nerd, what's really the difference? And, you know, I pressed her on that a little bit.

Speaker 11 I'm a a little bit more bullish than she is, I think, which is unusual for me. But then these polls come out this morning, and all my emotions start to get wrapped up in them.

Speaker 11 So let me, I'm going to run through them very fast. We have Marist has Harris plus five in Michigan, plus one in Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania tide.

Speaker 11 If you don't like that, the New York Times has Pennsylvania plus four and the national tide. And if you don't like that, SM, is it SM? No, FM.
SM is something else. Pennsylvania.

Speaker 11 Franklin and Marshall. Yeah.
There you go. Thank you.
Pennsylvania has Harris plus three.

Speaker 11 Okay.

Speaker 12 Not SM.

Speaker 11 Yeah,

Speaker 11 that's a different one. That's nice.
Emerson,

Speaker 11 we don't like Emerson right now. Emerson has Trump plus two in Georgia and Wisconsin plus one in Arizona.
Pennsylvania, Nevada, North Carolina tied. Harris plus one in Michigan.

Speaker 11 And the Washington Post has Pennsylvania tied. And Signal has North Carolina tied.
And the Maryland Senate race.

Speaker 11 Angela also brooks 50, St. Larry Hogan, 33.
I just added that one in for Sarah Longwell. Sam, what's your main takeaway? How do you sum all that up?

Speaker 12 Don't get too emotionally tied to polls.

Speaker 11 I want to be emotionally tied.

Speaker 12 It's not healthy for you. I feel like you should not check the internet early in the morning.

Speaker 12 It's like these things, what are we talking about here? Like a percentage point here, percentage point there. How do you know which one's correct? I just feel like ultimately it's such a close race.

Speaker 12 I keep coming back to a couple of things that are not in the polls, which is if you want to be closing well down the stretch, you want to have a lot of money and you want to have a lot of organization, right?

Speaker 12 And which campaign has that?

Speaker 12 It's it's harris's campaign i mean it's not you know momentum debates stuff like that i saw an interesting thought on twitter this morning it's like well everyone's looking to see if like this slight improvement that she's had since the debate is tied to her debate performance maybe but it could be the fact that she's just drowning him in ads and people are are getting a ton of exposure to harris that they've never gotten before and that will continue from now on through november so you know it's really impossible to know what we do know is that she has more money she has more on the ground in operations there probably will not be another debate and so those those are the main factors here.

Speaker 12 And I think in that case, she's in a nice position. I don't think it's like a lock or anything, but she's in a nice position.

Speaker 11 I agree with that. For those reasons, is why I was a little bit more bullish than Amy was.
And also, I just think the pool of undecided is more Harris-friendly. It's not completely Harris.

Speaker 11 It's not like 100%.

Speaker 11 But the types of people that are either undecided between the two or undecided between showing up or not. I think Harris is a bigger pool to fish in there for the most part.

Speaker 12 Well, that's what Sarah Sarah was saying.

Speaker 12 Sarah Longwell has basically been on this trend for a while, which is that this pool of undecided voters just needs to know what Harris is about. And they don't know her that well.

Speaker 12 And they know Trump. I mean, look at those polls from this morning.
Like, again, we've talked about this every time. Trump's at like 46, 46, 47, 48, 46.
It's like that dude is just capped.

Speaker 12 And really, Harris just can grow. And that's where the money comes in.
If you can spend a lot of money advertising and so on and so forth, you can reach those undecided voters.

Speaker 11 I did a YouTube video on the abortion ad they did yesterday, which I just thought was so powerful. Yeah.
If people missed that, I can see it on the YouTube feed.

Speaker 11 Just one more, just summing up the polls.

Speaker 11 Nate Cohn basically breaks it down with, if you just kind of average out the good polls, she's about plus three in Wisconsin or Michigan and plus two in Pennsylvania and nationally. And

Speaker 11 that's the ballgame.

Speaker 12 What's your take on the Nates? We have a lot of Nates out there.

Speaker 11 You know, I...

Speaker 11 There's a lot of people that are triggered by Nate Silver. I don't really understand why.

Speaker 11 He's kind of a contrarian prick on Twitter, so I get why that rubs some people the wrong way.

Speaker 11 There's like a Nate conspiracy theory out there that's like Peter Thiel and the Russians are paying him.

Speaker 12 And he's betting on this stuff.

Speaker 11 And I'm like, I don't, I don't actually know what the, what the, I don't understand what the conspiracy is. I guess that it helps Trump for him to say that Trump has a better chance to win.

Speaker 11 I'm not sure that actually helps Trump because like Nate is saying basically the same thing that the Harris campaign is saying. So I don't get that conspiracy.

Speaker 11 Nate Cohen, on the other hand, I think does a very good job and I have professional respect for him, but I remain remain triggered. He triggers people too by me, me, by the, by the needle.

Speaker 11 I'm still, the needle still haunts my dreams.

Speaker 12 He's caused a lot of harm, that guy. Not, not deliberately, but he, you know, he, he inflicts emotional damage on a whole swath of the upper west side of New York City.

Speaker 11 So, yeah, my child came down the other night, uh, had a nightmare, and came into my room, and I said, What was the problem? And she was like,

Speaker 11 She was like, It was a caterpillar, and I'm like, Caterpillars aren't scary. She's like, It was a scary caterpillar.
That's kind of how I feel about the needle.

Speaker 11 I wake up about once a month and I'm like, it's the needle.

Speaker 11 The needle. And move towards Trump.
It's basically summed up slightly for Harris, too close for comfort. Here's the one thing that jumped out at me at all these polls underneath.

Speaker 11 And it is a group that you and I know a little something about.

Speaker 11 College-educated whites. What did you say, Jews? Yeah, Jews.
I know a lot about Jews from my time at George Washington.

Speaker 12 College-educated whites. Gotcha.

Speaker 11 College-educated whites. Hello, fellow college-educated whites.
Trump is down at 36% with them.

Speaker 12 That's men and women?

Speaker 11 Yeah. Wow.
Yeah, I know. The movement post-debate in the New York Times poll, at least, was

Speaker 11 significantly due to the Harris gains among college-educated whites.

Speaker 11 There was a group of our people that I think were maybe nervous about her, watched the debate, and were like, okay, she's got this, and moved into her camp. So that is somewhat encouraging.

Speaker 11 There's another

Speaker 11 fact about college-educated whites owners here in Verona, New Jersey, which I know nothing about because I've never been there, but I know the demographics because I can Google.

Speaker 11 80% white, 150K median income, 63% with college degrees. In 2020, Biden won this district 59 to 40.

Speaker 11 In a special election Tuesday night, the Democrat won 68 to 31, a nine-point move, 18-point move really, in the Democrats' direction.

Speaker 11 So, in the one hand, some people responded to that and they're like, great news for Democrats. Me being rain cloud, I look at that and I'm like, am I in a bubble again?

Speaker 11 Is it just the college educated whites that are for Harris and I'm missing what's happening elsewhere in the world? Anyway,

Speaker 11 how do you respond to that data?

Speaker 12 It can be both, right? I feel like it could be both. I too saw the tweet about the special election with that data and I was like, that's interesting.

Speaker 12 I've never really paid attention to that district.

Speaker 11 Hello, New Jersey 10 residents. We see you.
Yeah.

Speaker 12 We love you. We definitely care.
On the one hand, I like these special election results because they are real-life examples of what elections can be and maybe foreshadow some larger elections, right?

Speaker 12 I mean, I know you're not supposed to read too much into them, but if you get enough data points, that's helpful.

Speaker 12 And through the past year or two, we've had a successive number of special elections that have really broken in the Democratic Party's favor. So that's interesting.

Speaker 12 Two is the college-educated stuff, like that seems very true. Like the real fault line has been education levels in this country.

Speaker 12 The partisan fault line has been education levels in this country ever since Trump burst onto the scene. That can work in two ways, though, right?

Speaker 12 Like, I think the news yesterday that kind of shocked me and you, according to our Slack conversations, was the Teamsters, international Teamsters deciding to not endorse. But it wasn't just that.

Speaker 12 It was the poll. I know there's some question about the methodology of the poll, but whatever.

Speaker 11 The poll showed that

Speaker 12 of their members showed that they had gone from something like plus eight for Biden to like minus 17 for Harris.

Speaker 12 And that to me is like, whoa, you know, white working class, predominantly white, not all, not exclusively white, working class men who are not sold on her.

Speaker 12 And is that sort of the canary in the coal mine here? Is that the thing that, you know, Harris is really going to end up losing those marginal gains that Biden made?

Speaker 12 And we know that Trump's like really invested in turning out those people. Like that's the game for him.
So yeah, reason to be optimistic, reason to be pessimistic.

Speaker 12 It's there's just tons of data points.

Speaker 11 It's just the thing that worries me. It's just that it's a bad trade.
It's a good trade for Democrats in special elections and midterms, right?

Speaker 11 This trade of, just to stereotype, your median Teamster versus your median suburban Verona, New Jersey, 150,000 media income, college-educated white.

Speaker 11 Like the Verona, New Jersey person votes more often in these weird elections, right? But there's a bigger pool of the non-college. So it's not a great trade for the general election.

Speaker 11 And that's the thing that worries me a little bit. Okay.
Trump rally last night. I didn't get to watch it.
I was on my plane to D.C.

Speaker 11 You watched it, though, and I would like to hear, I want you to tell me everything.

Speaker 12 Isn't your job to like just tune into every single rally? Isn't that why we pay you?

Speaker 11 I watch an insane amount of Donald Trump.

Speaker 12 I've watched too much ever since I started.

Speaker 11 I've got to make Real America's Voice. You have no idea how many hours I've logged on Real America's Voice, but I not last night.
We had no internet on the flight. I'll give it,

Speaker 12 you'd be that guy who's watching with the screen.

Speaker 11 I had to read a book last night. I was reading Joan Diddy.
Oh my god, it was very refreshing, actually. I was like, there's no internet on this flight.
Amazing.

Speaker 12 I was like, what a contrast. Diddian versus Trump.
Both great with words.

Speaker 12 So the rally last night was like, I was talking to Caput about this on the YouTube channel. It's like funny to see him in his element a little bit.

Speaker 12 Like he can go to these rallies where he clearly, I mean, they're his people. Obviously, they love him, but he just feels a little bit uncomfortable in those settings.

Speaker 12 But like Nassau County, New York is his people. He's a Queens guy.
It's just outside of Queens.

Speaker 11 Yeah, Nassau County Republicans are his people.

Speaker 11 It's not the, you know, Rome, Georgia Republicans. Rome, Georgia Republicans, he's faking it a little bit.
Yeah, he's not pumping.

Speaker 12 Yeah, he's not, you know, the hawk in the Bibles, you can tell his heart's not into it. But like talking about the New York subways, yeah, he's into it.

Speaker 12 I remember when he did this rally in 2016, he was talking about all the guys in the crowd who probably slept in their car overnight to go play Beth Page Black, which is like the famous golf course out there in Long Island.

Speaker 12 And like, you knew when he was telling that anecdote, like, this guy gets those guys and vice versa.

Speaker 12 So the white working class New Yorker type, and he was in his element. He was just bringing.

Speaker 12 it you know he made up this conversation with melania where apparently she tells him oh baby you were on top of it last night and you were great. He's like, I'm talking about my speeches.

Speaker 12 And I was like, oh, man, too much.

Speaker 11 You were on top of it?

Speaker 12 Yeah, we can pull the audio.

Speaker 11 Sam, it's too early for this. I don't want, I'm not pulling the audio.

Speaker 12 When does this podcast come out? The other thing he mentioned was he's going out to Springfield in Aurora. He's going to do this in two weeks.

Speaker 11 So he says he's going to go to Springfield, Ohio, to mend fences. It's going to be like a beer summit, kind of like Obama did with Gates.

Speaker 12 He's going to sit down with the Haitians.

Speaker 11 And the Republican mayor of the town and Miss Sassy, the cat, they're all going to have a meeting together, or is he going to go there to him?

Speaker 12 If Sassy showed up with Trump on the stage, I'm pretty sure he's going to go to the Demagogue. And then the last but not least was Rudy opened for him.
And

Speaker 12 I was just like, Rudy is on another planet at this point. He's just screaming into the microphone.

Speaker 11 I have the Rudy sound. Let's listen to that.
No more attacks.

Speaker 11 No more attacks.

Speaker 11 No more.

Speaker 11 Stop it.

Speaker 11 If there's anybody behind it,

Speaker 11 I'll find them.

Speaker 11 I did it to the mafia, I can do it to them!

Speaker 11 If you're behind it, I'm looking at you, and I'm gonna get you!

Speaker 12 It was very intense. It was loud.

Speaker 11 Well, who is he going to get? There, that's the assassin.

Speaker 11 Rudy's doing kind of a born identity thing now.

Speaker 12 A disbarred Rudy Giuliani with absolutely no liquid to do anything.

Speaker 11 Well, he's got some liquid going down the gullet.

Speaker 11 Yeah, different type of liquid.

Speaker 12 Gnome finances is going to go and track down the assassins and their network, apparently.

Speaker 1 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 1 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 1 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal. Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 1 Why is Adam after the Tanner family? What lengths will he go to? One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 1 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 2 California has millions of homes that could be damaged in a strong earthquake. Older homes are especially vulnerable to quake damage, so you may need to take steps to strengthen yours.

Speaker 5 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com to learn how to strengthen your home and help protect it from damage.

Speaker 8 The work may cost less than you think and can often be done in just a few days.

Speaker 9 Strengthen your home and help protect your family.

Speaker 10 Get prepared today and worry less tomorrow.

Speaker 5 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com.

Speaker 11 Let's get some other audio. I can't decide if I want to do funny first or angry.
What do you want to do? Funny or or angry? What you want to get first? You want to get angry first?

Speaker 11 Let's listen to JD Vance. This guy is running the most disgusting campaign, I think, that I've ever witnessed.
And that is not hyperbole. Let's just fucking, let's just listen to this.

Speaker 13 Now, the media loves to say that the Haitian migrants, hundreds of thousands of them, by the way, 20,000 in Springfield, but hundreds of thousands of them all across our country, they are here legally.

Speaker 13 And what they mean is that Kamala Harris used two separate programs, mass parole and temporary protective status.

Speaker 13 She used two two programs to wave a wand and to say, we're not going to deport those people here.

Speaker 13 Well, if Kamala Harris waves the wand illegally and says these people are now here legally, I'm still going to call them an illegal alien.

Speaker 11 Fuck you, JD Vance.

Speaker 11 I'm still going to call these people an illegal alien just because I don't agree with TPS. Like, what? Like, his kids are mixed race.
I just don't understand how he lives with himself.

Speaker 11 I just like, what would JD Vance do if somebody went up to him and was like, you know what, JD?

Speaker 11 I hear you that Usha came here legally but I'm still gonna call her an illegal alien because to me whatever the system was it wasn't right and I'm freelancing and I think that she's an illegal alien so that's what I'm gonna call her this one really like sucks to watch honestly it sucks because you know

Speaker 12 that the people who are on the receiving end of this are probably some of the most disadvantaged people on the globe.

Speaker 12 I mean, they come from a country, one of the most impoverished countries in the world that was hit with a devastating earthquake. They came to this country legally.
They didn't sneak in.

Speaker 12 They came legally. They came looking for work.
All they want is an opportunity.

Speaker 12 And for this person to use the stage he's been granted and the power that he has been bequeathed to stigmatize, to demagogue, to make their lives harder, not easier, really shows you something about...

Speaker 12 both the priorities, but also I would just add, and I know this is not a terribly unique insight, it's offensive to the Republican electorate that he plays down to this type of politics for them.

Speaker 12 He's made the calculation that they too want to stigmatize and demagogue and go after this Haitian community.

Speaker 12 And he believes it's a political winner, and it's just an offensive calculation to the electorate itself. So, yes, it makes me angry, honestly.

Speaker 11 And it's un-American. It's like the fundamentally American story.
Right. Like, does the disadvantaged people come here? They followed the rules, the rules as they were when Joe Biden was president.

Speaker 11 You can say you disagree with the rules. You're going to change the rules.
I would also disagree with that.

Speaker 11 You can say, hey, when we're in there, we're not going to let anybody that's suffering from violence into this country. We're not going to do it with TPS anymore.
Okay.

Speaker 12 Also,

Speaker 12 he's created a straw man, too, where

Speaker 12 if you're for treating this community with dignity and offering help to them, that therefore you are against the people of Springfield.

Speaker 11 They're the people of Springfield now, too.

Speaker 12 They are, who were there before the Haitian community arrived. And I just think that's a real idiotic dichotomy.
You can be for both of these people.

Speaker 12 You don't have to be for one or the other, but he has turned them against each other. And these are his constituents.
I mean, keep that in mind.

Speaker 12 These are his constituents that he's turned against each other, all for political opportunism.

Speaker 11 Also, just as a matter of fact, Kamala Harris was the vice president. She didn't wave any wands.
Just as a factual matter, it's also wrong. He fucking sucks.
I don't know that I've had

Speaker 11 a personal disdain for a candidate at the degree of J.D. Vance ever, actually.
So it's hard for me to get past.

Speaker 12 It's weird. Yeah, I've been trying to think of a figure who's had this kind of trajectory in recent times, and it's kind of, it's hard to think of someone.
Like, this isn't Palin.

Speaker 12 Palin came on the scene, and we were like, who is this person?

Speaker 11 I challenge people to go listen to Sarah Palin interviews and compare him to J.D. Vance interviews.

Speaker 11 She's like downright humane, and I mean, she's not prepared, but she is like, her rhetoric is like she's trying to appeal to John McCain. Anyway, I already did this twice this week.

Speaker 11 I just, he drives me so crazy. Let's laugh a little bit more.
Trump on Guttfeld last night.

Speaker 11 Let's listen to Donald Trump on Guttfeld exclamation Point, the comedy show on Fox News, which I also suffer through for you.

Speaker 14 And they didn't correct her once, and they corrected me everything I said practically. I think nine times or 11 times.
And the audience was absolutely, they went crazy.

Speaker 14 And the real, I thought it was, I walked off, I said, that was a great debate. I loved it.
You know, you got a lot of people watching. I guess we had 75 million people watching, something like that.

Speaker 14 And you have to do well. You can't do badly.

Speaker 11 The audience audience went crazy.

Speaker 11 What audience went crazy.

Speaker 11 Does he just have like a cheering section in his brain? There was no audience.

Speaker 12 Women were fainting. Men were crying.

Speaker 11 What is happening there? Do you think that he, is this just a narcissistic sociopath?

Speaker 11 What is happening?

Speaker 12 I've come to some, not complete conviction, but I've concluded that he's got these ticks in that he, like, no matter the story, he'll be like, you know, people are going crazy.

Speaker 12 Or like, you know, he'll throw out like 20

Speaker 12 throw and then he'll always end every sentence one and make america great again it's like he's got these routines and there's these rhetorical ticks that that he he relies on and so and he even kind of admitted it the other day where he he was talking about how he was everyone accuses him of rambling but he like puts the dots together and he said and if people are leaving my rally i'll just say and make america great again and they'll come right back in he so he sort of knows it i guess i don't know i think we could use a professional therapist though i i like there's something deeply narcissistic.

Speaker 11 Yeah, I mean, there's some deep issues you got to work through if you are just, if one of your ticks is and people were cheering for me.

Speaker 11 You don't do that in the morning.

Speaker 12 I looked in the mirror in the morning. I'm like, and people were cheering.
And people were cheering.

Speaker 11 Me and Sam, guys, I'm going to say this when I'm on this panel this afternoon. And me and Sam taped this podcast this morning.
And it was so great.

Speaker 11 And the audience was cheering for us. The audience was going crazy.
You could hear it. You could hear them chanting our name.
All right, I saved one last thing for you: just a little palate cleanser.

Speaker 11 I didn't tell you it was coming. Oh, good.
Is it RFK? It's not RFK. We do have a little special thing, you and I, with RFK.

Speaker 11 Next time, next time we'll do a whole segment on RFK, but this something is a little bit better than that. Let's listen.

Speaker 15 Why do I stand proudly behind my nude modeling work?

Speaker 15 The more pressing question is: Why has the media chosen to scrutinize my celebration of the human forum in a fashion photo photoshop. Are we no longer able to appreciate the beauty of the human body?

Speaker 15 Throughout history, master artists have revered the human shape, evoking profound emotions and admiration.

Speaker 15 We should honor our bodies and embrace the timeless tradition of using art as a powerful means of self-expression.

Speaker 11 Do we need to listen to it again? You were laughing pretty loud.

Speaker 11 Let's just play five more seconds. Jason, put it back on for five more seconds.
I want to hear five more seconds of it.

Speaker 15 Why do I stand proudly behind my nude modeling work?

Speaker 15 The more pressing question is.

Speaker 11 Okay, this came out today. This came out today.
Or yesterday, I guess.

Speaker 11 Yesterday.

Speaker 16 50 days from the election.

Speaker 11 And the first lady to be wannabe put out a video about her nude modeling work and how proud. And by the way, she looks great.
She looks great. I agree with that.

Speaker 11 It's the messaging and kind of the timing I find interesting. I have no issue.
I mean, I think she should do nude modeling work now. Whatever makes her happy, I support that.
I'm pro.

Speaker 11 I am body positive over here. This is the Bullard podcast.
This is body positive. We do not kink shame.
It's a safe space.

Speaker 11 Politically speaking, it's an interesting question. It's like, did they ran that by Susie Wiles and Lasavita? It's like, hey, we're leaking out a little bit from the book here.

Speaker 11 We're going to do the nude modeling section.

Speaker 12 Well, like Melania, I too celebrate my naked form.

Speaker 11 Does Mrs. Stein celebrate your naked form still, or is that

Speaker 11 past?

Speaker 11 This is a kid's podcast. Okay, sorry.

Speaker 11 Let's not go in there.

Speaker 12 Come on. The thing about the audio, you can't see it, but there's a video component to it.
This is the thing that kind of struck me was I was watching it.

Speaker 12 I was like, she's going through all these like famous artistic depictions of the naked body, and there's like the Michelangelo David there.

Speaker 12 I'm like, did she just compare like nude shoots to the David?

Speaker 11 That's like pretty cool. She does.
It's very bold.

Speaker 12 I guess we are celebrating the human form and all of its variations, but I just don't think Maxim Magazine and the David are on the same plane.

Speaker 11 None of the video pictures were like, you know, full-bodied people. You know what I mean? It was not actually celebrating all of the human form.
It was comparing herself to

Speaker 11 the most pristine human forms in World War II.

Speaker 12 All these sculptures with rock hard abs.

Speaker 12 That's not real. Let's be honest, Melania.

Speaker 11 Maybe this was part of the youth male outreach.

Speaker 12 That's the only logical explanation.

Speaker 12 I will say, 46 days from the election and the in in like you know you're wondering like doug amhoffs out there talking about like you know anti-semitism and going to texas and trying to flip florida and she's like the nude body needs to be celebrated it's like which one has got more appeal i think she's going to actually win this one though i think i think this will get some votes from a subset of the electorate it's something something's happening there um sam son i'm glad we can listen to that together

Speaker 11 i hope everyone that was listening in carpool line enjoyed that enjoyed thinking about Sam's form. And we'll be seeing him back here soon up next, my friend Suzanne Craig.

Speaker 1 Get Ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 1 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 1 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal. Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 1 Why is Adam after the Tanner family? What lengths will he go to? One thing's for sure: the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 1 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 2 California has millions of homes that could be damaged in a strong earthquake.

Speaker 4 Older homes are especially vulnerable to quake damage, so you may need to take steps to strengthen yours.

Speaker 5 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com to learn how to strengthen your home and help protect it from damage.

Speaker 8 The work may cost less than you think and can often be done in just a few days.

Speaker 9 Strengthen your home and help protect your family.

Speaker 10 Get prepared today and worry less tomorrow.

Speaker 5 Visit Visit strengthenyourhouse.com.

Speaker 11 All right, we are back with Suzanne Craig, investigative reporter at the New York Times.

Speaker 11 She's co-author of the brand new book, Lucky Loser: How Donald Trump Squandered His Father's Fortune and Created the Illusion of Success. Hey, Suzanne, how are you doing? Good.
How are you?

Speaker 11 You've been working on this thing for a while.

Speaker 11 I was paging through it yesterday, and man, I mean, this is not one of those Donald Trump books. It's like Orange Man Bath, which he is, you know, 200 pages, and we're out.

Speaker 11 Like, this is deep, deep research about his finances.

Speaker 11 And so I just kind of want to, you know, hear from you, kind of the origin story, why you felt like this was sort of worth the effort to really dig through his financials over the course of decades.

Speaker 16 Right. I should have started by saying I'm a bit tired because I've been at this for coming on nine, ten years now.

Speaker 16 This all started, the thing I love about reporting, and maybe I hate it some days, we'll talk about that, but you know, you wake up in the morning, you don't really know what you're going to do.

Speaker 16 Something happens and you're sort of dispatched to it and what happened to me in 2015 and what got both myself and russ button or my colleague who wrote the book with me is donald trump you know was running for president nobody at that point suspected he would be stay in the race but he was in early 2016 you know was having some success and in early 2016 in the primaries and i remember i got the call from the boss saying hey He could be out in a couple months, but we'd like you to come back.

Speaker 16 I was running the City Hall Bureau for the Times. I had just started.

Speaker 16 And can you do one big story, kind of looking at what he owns in New York, what he doesn't own, you know, his name's on buildings and people didn't know if he owned that and sort of what sort of player is he in New York?

Speaker 16 So I said, sure.

Speaker 16 And I did that story. And then Donald Trump kept winning.
And I never went back to City Hall. And I'm still writing about the guy.
So that's like nine years of crazy town.

Speaker 16 And the same thing happened to us. And the reason it's important, you know, back then, I just put people back then.

Speaker 16 He started by saying, I'm going to release my tax returns. And that was important because he's got a complicated business empire.

Speaker 16 He was running for president and people want to know what influences are on the guy. You know,

Speaker 16 who's pulling the strings behind the curtain and what do his finances look like? So he had said he was going to release his tax returns. Well, big surprise, he lied about that.

Speaker 16 He didn't release his tax returns.

Speaker 16 And in 2016, there was, in particular, there was just a massive search on for a lot of things about Donald Trump because he came from nowhere in politics to running for president.

Speaker 16 So so much was not known about him. But my corner of the world, and it was a big one, was his finances.
And everybody was looking for his tax returns.

Speaker 16 We were tearing through courthouses and anywhere you can imagine, regulatory filings.

Speaker 16 And then I had an incredible thing happen to me in September of 2016, which was I went to my mailbox one afternoon, Friday afternoon, and

Speaker 16 there was, I love mail. And so I was excited about it.

Speaker 11 This story is inspiring me because I hate going in my mailbox. It's always bills, you know,

Speaker 11 camera tickets.

Speaker 16 Magazines you don't want to read.

Speaker 16 But I always check it. I don't know.
It's just a thing. And there was a Manila envelope addressed to me.
And I opened it.

Speaker 16 And inside was what looked like, we weren't sure, three pages of Donald Trump's 1995 tax returns. And I was like, well, this is great if it's true.

Speaker 16 You know, we looked at the tax return and he had, what was shocking about it, was a billion dollars in accumulated losses for 1995, like this successful billionaire guy who was running on that.

Speaker 16 In 1995, his losses had looked like they did, you know, if it was true, it clocked a billion dollars. And it was true.
We confirmed the tax return.

Speaker 16 It took us working around the clock for 10 days, but we got that to press. And that was kind of the first big,

Speaker 16 well, it was the first big story about anybody had got about his taxes.

Speaker 16 And that sort of set us on a journey for the next, however, many years, where we did a lot more on Fred Trump and what he inherited from his father, how he enhanced it with tax fraud. This was cool.

Speaker 16 What a great story. And we were lucky enough to have won a Pulitzer with that.
And then we got... 20 plus years of his corporate and personal tax returns in 2020.

Speaker 16 All of that gave us this incredible, I think, skeleton for a story. But Russ and I, we wanted to tell the sweeping narrative that we saw in those numbers, a story about family and

Speaker 16 power struggles and about Donnell's business career, about how he was born into this fortune, got another fortune from Mark Burnett for hosting The Apprentice, and how that was structured.

Speaker 16 And then how the loser in him, he put all of that money, he invested it in himself, and that he invested it in businesses that he didn't run very well.

Speaker 16 And we could see through his taxes, most of them lost money.

Speaker 11 So I was a liberal arts major. My dad wanted me to go to business school, and I didn't listen to him.
Same time. So, okay.

Speaker 11 How do you lose 900 million in a year and also have a plane?

Speaker 11 Can you explain to me like what, like how he was structuring this? Like, how did it even work?

Speaker 16 Yeah, no, he, he, those were accumulated losses. His casinos were losing huge amounts of money, but he was also borrowing money.

Speaker 16 And, And, you know, the banks were willing to loan him money, and they kept doing it. And part of the magic of the casinos, it was structured within a public corporation.

Speaker 16 But he would buy the accoutrements of wealth. It's a really good observation.
And he looked wealthy, and the banks kept betting on him. He bought like planes and yachts.

Speaker 16 This is how he got on lifestyles of the rich and famous. They just loved.
They loved it because he had all these toys that they could film. And then it all came crashing down at one point.

Speaker 16 And then he sold the apprentice on this, you know, that he'd come back from

Speaker 16 this wreckage.

Speaker 11 But yeah, so talk about that period, because that's what I don't quite understand, right? Like, I get the apprentice money, but after the failures, after the bankruptcies, he has his story, right?

Speaker 11 Which is whatever, rebuilding, come back, famous man. What does the numbers show? Like, how did he live his lifestyle in the bankruptcy period?

Speaker 16 He was sort of almost too big to fail. So there was sort of a structured plan for for him coming out of that.

Speaker 16 And then he actually, you know, it's interesting that period before The Apprentice, he kept up the appearances and there was a lot of big talk.

Speaker 16 But he wasn't, you know, he was pretty stagnant at that point. He was building a couple projects, including he started the tower in Chicago that he built.
That was his last construction project.

Speaker 16 That wasn't doing well. And he, in 2003, 4 era, he structured or engineered the sale of his father's empire.
His father died in 1999.

Speaker 16 Fred wanted to keep that in the family, but Donald convinced his siblings to sell. And he got, you know, almost 200 million from that.
I think around $177 million from that. He always is lucky.

Speaker 16 It's apt title. He found a wellspring of money.

Speaker 16 But he was trying to get, what was interesting about that period that Russ and I found is he was trying to get licensing deals during that period and other things to bring in cash because he still had the Trump name.

Speaker 16 It was all over the buildings. There was a value he saw in that.
And he was really having trouble. He was not cutting deals at all on the licensing side.

Speaker 16 And then the apprentice came around and it turned everything around.

Speaker 11 Mark Burnett

Speaker 11 shakes my fist.

Speaker 16 How Mark structured that, it still is one of the craziest things that we found once we got into

Speaker 16 the reporting on this because you think TV host, right?

Speaker 16 Like how much can a TV host make he was being paid initially $50,000 an episode like this is good money but it's not life-changing magic money but what what happened which was incredible and we were able to get not only his taxes through the reporting in the book I got a lot of the financials of the actual television show okay and what Mark did which was incredible was it was incredible let me premise that for Donald Trump and for Mark Burnett they both made a huge amount of money out

Speaker 16 NBC was so keen to lock not Donald Trump down, but Mark Burnett down on The Apprentice, because he was red hot at that point coming off of Survivor, the reality TV show, that was just a monster hit.

Speaker 16 And NBC really wanted to get into the reality TV space. So Jeff Zucker, well, he goes on to be the head of CNN and

Speaker 16 another big figure in Donald Trump's life. He at that point signed an agreement with Mark Burnett on The Apprentice where NBC would retain the money from the commercials, which is really good money.

Speaker 16 But Mark Burnett would get the product placement money. And what that means is, you know, on Survivor, if there was a competition between the two teams and they were fighting over a bag of Doritos,

Speaker 16 Doritos would pay or whoever owns Doritos, the potato chip maker. And Mark Burnett would keep that money.
So at that point, that meant something.

Speaker 16 But NBC was willing to let it go because they didn't see it as sort of this, you know, big money maker. And then the apprentice comes on the first year, pretty much

Speaker 16 there wasn't a lot of product placement. They had like a NetJets type marquee jets came on and they got some advertising, but they just agreed to fly the contestants from the show somewhere.

Speaker 16 It wasn't like they were paying a lot to be on the show. But after the first year, Madison Avenue loved the show.

Speaker 16 And all of a sudden, all these corporations are clamoring to get on the show because it's essentially a 40 45 minute ad for their product like if a toothpaste company comes on and the two teams are battling to create an ad campaign for the toothpaste company that's 45 minutes of that's an ad for the toothpaste that's an advertisement for the toothpaste company and we saw the second third fourth season companies were paying up to four million dollars four or five million dollars to be on the show and mark burnett agreed to give half of the product placement money to Donald Trump.

Speaker 16 So he got a check every time for half of whatever that company was paying. Mark Burnett was sitting over there creating TV magic, including rehabilitating Donald Trump's image.

Speaker 16 And like Donald Trump was the host, so he didn't have anything to do with that.

Speaker 16 He would show up for the boardroom scene, if you've seen the show, meet the contestants and walk away with half of all the product placement money.

Speaker 16 And then he got licensing deals off of it, right, with all these companies. Like he was separately doing a ton of licensing deals.

Speaker 11 Yeah, while you mentioned Survivor,

Speaker 11 I should mention some breaking Survivor news that might be of interest to some of our audience. Fellow podcast host, John Lovett, lost in the very first episode of Survivor on last night's show.

Speaker 11 Tough break to John Lovett. Happy trails to you, but glad you're back in the podcast.

Speaker 11 Thanks for that, John. That was great.
That was great. We love him.
I just had to tease him. You mentioned Survivor.
And so I was like, oh, I feel like we need to tease John a little bit.

Speaker 11 It was a good try. It was a good try.
One episode's pretty good. So DeMarc Bernado is kind of the second inheritance that Donald Trump gets, kind of a second daddy figure.

Speaker 11 The first one was a point of contention at the debate.

Speaker 11 And so I want to play what Kamala Harrison Donald Trump said at the debate about his inheritance and then have you, since you've actually seen the data, be our podcast fact checker. Let's listen.

Speaker 17 As it relates to my values, let me tell you, I grew up a middle-class kid raised by a hardworking mother who worked and saved and was able to buy our first home when I was a teenager.

Speaker 17 The values I bring to the importance of home ownership, knowing not everybody got handed $400 million on a silver platter and then filed bankruptcy six times, is a value that I bring to my work to say we are going to work with the private sector and home builders to increase 3 million homes, increase by 3 million homes by the end of my first term.

Speaker 14 First of all, I wasn't given $400 million. I wish I was.

Speaker 14 My father was a Brooklyn builder, Brooklyn Queens, and a great father, and I learned a lot from him, but I was given a fraction of that, a tiny fraction, and I built it into many, many billions of dollars, many, many billions.

Speaker 11 All right, Suzanne, so what is the truth of this? You know, this is something that he's been saying, you know, he just gets a little bit of help, and he's been saying this for years now.

Speaker 11 And then she drops the 400 million figure, which I guess is what matches what your reporting showed. So talk to us about how you came to that figure.

Speaker 16 Right. And we did a lot of work to get to that figure.
It was in that 2018 story that I mentioned.

Speaker 16 We were able to get to that figure because as part of the reporting for that story, Mary Trump, who is Donald Trump's niece, provided us with more than 100,000 pages of documents that just opened up a door that we never thought we would, a room we would ever get into into Fred Trump's wealth.

Speaker 16 And she had all this information. It's interesting, when we started on that story, and we wanted to understand more about Fred Trump when we started on that story that ran in 2018.

Speaker 16 It ultimately showed he inherited hundreds of millions of dollars and it was enhanced through tax fraud. But it started with a simple question was, we knew who Fred Trump was, but we really didn't.

Speaker 16 And Donald Trump had been saying he was some kind of Mickey Mouse outer borough builder for a long time.

Speaker 16 He said it was a small builder. and he inherited a million dollars.
And we just started looking first into the property records in New York City just to understand what he owned. It's great.

Speaker 16 There's a system, it's a public system, and you can put in someone's name and see what they owned. And we started just basically to build a map of everything.

Speaker 16 And in doing that, Mary Trump's name and her brother's name, a lot of other names came up, and we just started building a big source list.

Speaker 16 But Mary Trump and Fred Trump, her brother, had owned some of the properties that we were bumping up against.

Speaker 16 So, and we realized, and it had been written about, she was in litigation with Donald Trump at one point, and it was over her grandfather's estate.

Speaker 16 We knew, importantly, that that litigation had gone to discovery, and discovery is like kind of the magic reporter word. So

Speaker 16 we knew there was something there. We thought there would be some records.
We didn't really know how much. We'd done some digging around.

Speaker 16 And I just decided one day, it was important enough, we didn't want to call. I wanted to go to her door.
And she was pretty apprehensive at first about talking to me, but we kind of kept an open line.

Speaker 16 And eventually, she sat down with me and she said, I have really not any idea what's in the litigation, but the boxes should still be over at the lawyer's office that I hired.

Speaker 16 Why don't I call him and I'll go and get everything for you? And the short of it is she did. She went and rented a van and it was great.
And she loaded it up and came back to her house.

Speaker 16 And I met her there with my colleagues who were working on the story.

Speaker 16 And we transported all of the information to kind of this, it's crazy, the secret locked room at the New York Times and starting digging through it all.

Speaker 16 It took us a year or more to get through it, but we saw through that.

Speaker 11 Do you have good snacks in that room or like a good, was the temperature control?

Speaker 16 We did. We had some scotch and

Speaker 16 we didn't even let the cleaners in, so we had to clean it, but that was fine. We were, you know, we sort of had some rules.

Speaker 11 It's kind of a reality show of its own, sort of, you know, like a big brother situation. You guys, the reporters in a room with Donald Trump's attacks.

Speaker 11 And so the short of it then, you get to the 400 million. It's just this combo of the buildings.

Speaker 11 So it's not all cash, right? It's like the buildings and then some of what Mary and Fred, we had Fred Jr. on the pod and sort of what they had got schemed out of.

Speaker 11 And that is really where the number comes from.

Speaker 16 Right. And we can see how much it was worth because he sold it a few years later and then some of this becomes public record.
So you sort of can see how much he got

Speaker 16 through it all. But we were able to trace it through the documents, through other public records, and put it all together.
And his claim that he got a small loan, I think he's come to believe it.

Speaker 16 And he just keeps repeating it. And it was even bigger.

Speaker 11 Was it kind of true at the beginning? Is it one of those things where it was like at the very beginning it was kind of true and then his dad died? Not really.

Speaker 16 Yeah, well he got some loans from his dad. Some of them he didn't pay back, but that million-dollar loan, we actually looked into it and it never existed.

Speaker 16 Like he got loans, some of them, you know, like I said, weren't paid back, but no, I mean, he got a ton of money and he's still.

Speaker 11 So George Costanza situation, like if you believe it, it becomes true type of thing with Trump. Right.

Speaker 16 And that's Donald Trump's magic, right? A lie repeated over and over, he hopes, becomes fact.

Speaker 16 And he's still, you know, Starrett City is the public housing project that Fred Trump owned a piece of that recently paid out money for Donald Trump.

Speaker 16 He continues to get money from the smart investments his father made. Like, you know, it's still going on.

Speaker 16 There's no small-time builder here. There's no, oh, I just got a small loan and it was all me.
Donald Trump, he got so much money from his father, but he also got contacts from his father.

Speaker 16 His father co-signed loans for him. What drives me crazy about it is, why not just acknowledge acknowledge that your dad was a great builder?

Speaker 16 I don't know. Just like let it go, man.

Speaker 11 It has to be him. Right.
It's all got to be him, Megalomania. You also got into a little bit of the stormy and some of the finances around that.

Speaker 11 What have you found out about the stormy?

Speaker 16 situation? We did. Actually, it was fun.
It wasn't actually anything financial, but

Speaker 16 we called a ton of people. And I called, this came from an unexpected source.
I was talking to a fellow over in the UK.

Speaker 16 His name's Neil Hobday. He was a great guy, and he had been involved in the project management of some of the golf courses that Donald Trump has built overseas.

Speaker 16 So most of his interaction with Donald Trump was overseas, but occasionally he'd come to HQ in New York to

Speaker 16 visit the Trump Tower and see the Alan Weiselberg and Donald Trump. And he came one day, flew over in February of 2007,

Speaker 16 which we came to learn through Stormy Daniels' book and through the trial that just happened that Stormy Daniels was at Trump Tower at that time.

Speaker 16 So he comes in for a meeting and he's walking in to see Donald Trump and there's this blonde-haired, kind of very well-endowed woman in the office talking to Donald Trump.

Speaker 16 He doesn't know who it is, but he comes into the office, says hello to the woman, and she says goodbye and sort of leaves. And Donald Trump's all excited and he's holding a pack of playing cards.

Speaker 16 And on the playing cards, on the front of them, are all pictures of this woman. She's naked in various sexual positions.
And he's all excited showing Neil these playing cards.

Speaker 16 And then he's like, oh yeah, look at this. And this woman was, she was here because she was pitching me on a pornographic evangelical television program.

Speaker 16 And Neil's just like, what the hell is going on here? And then they started on with their conversation. But Neil was telling me about this.
And he goes, I realized later. The woman was Stormy Daniels.

Speaker 16 And then we got a hold of Stormy Daniels. And she's like, I totally remember that.
And I remember the playing cards. And I gave them to Donald.

Speaker 16 Like it was just this crazy story that goes to like how batshit Donald Trump's life was during this period, you know, during that period in particular, but kind of all the time.

Speaker 11 You know, you'd laugh. And in 2007, that seems like a ridiculous pitch, a pornographic evangelical television show.
It feels like a contradiction in terms. But now, in 2024,

Speaker 11 they were ahead of the game, maybe. I bet that would have crushed.
I don't know. It seems like, you know, I mean, evangelism is more of like

Speaker 11 a lifestyle brand now, you know? Right. So you can add a little pornography on top of it if you're going to have Trump as your David.

Speaker 16 Yeah, it sounds less crazy today, right? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 11 What else? Anything else? And you're so deep. You spent a year there.
You're going through all this stuff. Do you have any other favorite kind of anecdotes, favorite little factoids about

Speaker 11 the Trump business that jumped out at you?

Speaker 16 You know, there's one that I just, I really like it. It's an apprentice anecdote.
And it's, again, it just sort of goes to Donald Trump and the ego that he developed during this period.

Speaker 16 And just to premise that, this is another story before I tell the main story, but even during the filming of The Apprentice, you know, how you have, you put an X where people are supposed to stand when you're on a TV set.

Speaker 16 He would insist that

Speaker 16 there was a T. We actually have photos of this.
Somebody on the show showed us because they kept it because it was so crazy. So one of the stories that we heard, we heard so many stories from,

Speaker 16 I phoned all the marketing officers from every company that appeared on the show to talk to them about their interactions with Donald Trump because some of them were insulted on air by him.

Speaker 16 And I was just like, these guys have got to just have great stories. And a lot, nobody called them.
So it was great. And one of the ones was, so QBC is the shopping network.

Speaker 16 And they did an episode on The Apprentice. And then after this, because Donald Trump's always cutting side deals,

Speaker 16 he got a deal where he could come out to QBC to sell whatever his latest book was at the time. And so he has to go out to QBC to their campus in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 16 And normally when people, when celebrities come in, because a lot of celebrities go out there to hawk stuff, they fly into Brandywine airport. Well, Donald Trump didn't want to do that.

Speaker 16 So the chief marketing officer and the people from Mark Burnett Show, they agreed to create some makeshift helicopter landing pad in the big field that's at QVC.

Speaker 16 And so they go out there that day and they're waiting for Donald Trump to come and they see the helicopter and it's descending down and it's about to land not far from where it's supposed to land and all of a sudden it redirects and it lands in the middle of the employee parking lot and stones go flying everywhere there they hit cars there was insurance claims filed because of this and he lands he gets out and Dan Gill one of the people who was working for Mark Burnett looks at Donald Trump's bodyguard Keith Schiller and says Keith what just happened they were furious There's a lot of words I don't want to repeat that were said.

Speaker 11 I'm sure Donald Trump covered everybody, paid for all of the kind of insurance,

Speaker 11 all the damage. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 16 Yeah, yeah. He was very concerned.
And the comment came back: Donald Trump didn't want to get his shoes muddy.

Speaker 11 Oh, my God.

Speaker 16 So he just landed in the employee parking lot.

Speaker 11 What trash person. There's so much there.
There's so much in the book. You can kind of just, I mean, it's a narrative.
You can do the beginning to the end.

Speaker 11 You can also just page through it and just like read these crazy anecdotes like this from the various phases of his life of losing and debauchery and bankruptcy. So the book is Lucky Loser.

Speaker 11 Hopefully, hopefully two months from now, we have the loser and not the luck. And hopefully the luck is ours.
But we'll see how it goes.

Speaker 11 Suzanne Craig, thanks so much for coming on the Bullwick podcast. We'll see you around 30 Rock soon, I'm sure.
And we'll do it again soon. Appreciate all the work you put in on this.

Speaker 11 Everybody else, we'll be back tomorrow for the Friday weekend edition of the Bullwork Podcast. We'll see you all then.
Peace.

Speaker 11 We've come too far

Speaker 11 to give up

Speaker 11 who we are.

Speaker 11 So let's raise the

Speaker 11 and we're close

Speaker 11 to the stars

Speaker 11 She's up all night to the sun I'm up all night to get some She's up all night for good fun

Speaker 11 I'm up all night to get lucky We're up all night to the sun

Speaker 11 We're up all night to get some

Speaker 11 We're up all night for good fun

Speaker 11 We're up all night to get lucky We're up all night to get lucky We're up all night to get lucky We're up all night to get lucky We're up all night get lucky.

Speaker 11 The Board Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 11 This is Matt Rogers from Lost Culture Eastas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture East with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.
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