Bill Kristol: Stay on Offense

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovny, and Carise Van Houten.

Speaker 7 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 10 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 13 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 2 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 9 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 7 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 1 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

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Speaker 16 Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
It is Labor Day, but podcasting isn't really labor.

Speaker 16 So, you know, we're working, right, Bill?

Speaker 17 Shouldn't Labor Day be a day when you do labor? I mean, should it not be called like non-labor day or break from labor day?

Speaker 17 No, rest and relaxation leisure day. I don't know.

Speaker 16 Yeah, leisure day for laborers, but this is our leisure. This is just us hanging out with you talking about politics.
Last night,

Speaker 16 I don't want to just go too overboard on the sports metaphors here, just sometimes some of our listeners, it turns them off, but don't know if you watched it, but my beloved LSU Tigers lost to USC.

Speaker 16 There were a couple of times in the fourth quarter where they had the ball, where they were winning, where all they really had to do was just punch it in, you know, close the deal.

Speaker 16 They were winning very slightly. And they just were unable to do it.
They got a little too conservative. They let USC catch up.

Speaker 16 And I kind of feel like that's where the state of the race is right now for Kamala Harris. Hopefully the end will be better.
But she's up by a little bit.

Speaker 16 But I want to make sure that we are putting our pedal to the metal for the last two months. How does that metaphor strike you?

Speaker 17 Yikes. I mean, I follow LSU football as closely as you.
That

Speaker 17 sounds correct as an analysis of where we are and plausible as an, unfortunately, somewhat plausible as an analysis of where we might, I hope not.

Speaker 17 And I guess I think not, but I think they do understand they have to stay on the offense and not go into you know like a prevent defense too early and so forth and I think she did a little bit of prevent defense at that interview what was that Thursday night with CNN with Danabash but that was I think tactical for that night not for the next nine weeks I hope and trust yeah I hope that's true because things are good the values have been good we had we had a new ABC poll out which has her up 52 46 which is our biggest lead in the polls yet could be an outlier it's one poll it's the biggest lead that we've seen though in an individual I'm sure we'll be getting more this week.

Speaker 16 I was on with JVL. We were doing, I guess, the next level, maybe a week or two ago, and he was like, what does the equilibrium of this race look like?

Speaker 16 It kind of feels like we actually reached it very quickly, right? Which is a very narrow Harris lead. And, you know, I think that is what takes us to, is it possible for her to expand that up?

Speaker 16 What can be done to continue to drive Trump down even further? And we were texting over the weekend about one of the ads that the Super PAC is running.

Speaker 16 So I want to listen to that in the context of where they see the race.

Speaker 18 I'm running to fight for an America where the economy works for working people, where you only have to work one job to pay the bills, and where hard work is rewarded,

Speaker 18 where reproductive rights are not just protected by the Constitution of the United States, but guaranteed in every state. Because that's our America.
And that's the America I believe in.

Speaker 17 FF PAC is responsible responsible for the content of this ad.

Speaker 16 So more money has been spent on that ad than any other piece of creative in the campaign so far. And it is just a little like, okay,

Speaker 16 that's okay for me. I don't know.
That's fine. But

Speaker 16 maybe it's my grumpiness coming off that loss last night.

Speaker 16 But this is where I wake up this morning and I'm like, I want blood in the teeth because the Trump ads that I was seeing during the football games are aggressive, on the other hand, right?

Speaker 16 And I think that reflects kind of where both campaigns think that they are, right? That the Kamala Harris super PAC is still doing a gauzy kind of treatment, such as that.

Speaker 16 And the Trump ad is like, Kamala Harris let out, you know, these horrible criminals and, you know, doing the whole Willie Horton deal.

Speaker 17 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah, my glass half-full vibes kicked in over the weekend, too. I thought the terrible Trump behavior at Arlington, is it spinning the other way now?

Speaker 17 He's got the families out there saying they invited him. He's got a ton of people lying about the rules of Arlington and so forth.

Speaker 17 Harris weighed in finally with a statement, but ultimately the death of those 13 soldiers and Marines in Afghanistan isn't great for the Biden-Harris administration, obviously. So I don't know.

Speaker 17 I got nervous also this week. A couple of things.
The ABC poll is plus six. The Wall Street Journal poll, which is a very good poll, is plus one in Harris.

Speaker 17 So let's just assume it's, I assume it's a three to four point race right now, which is right on the bubble of winning, if you think about the Electoral College.

Speaker 17 She's behind where Clinton and Biden were at this point in the polls, but maybe they've corrected the polls, you know, to pick up the formerly shy Trump voters.

Speaker 17 Maybe they aren't formerly shy Trump voters. So maybe that's not the right comparison.
This is one of these things people can obsess about now, but I think she has a slight edge.

Speaker 17 And I'm a little worried. That ad that you played, it's a perfectly okay issue ad, but I don't know.

Speaker 17 Does it convince anyone who isn't already basically for reproductive rights and isn't already for Harris? I think that's the right question.

Speaker 17 So I have two views which are in contradiction with one each other. One, I very much share your notion that she has to punch Trump in the nose.
She has to do it in person at the debate.

Speaker 17 I'm not sure how much paid media will do on that. People are used to seeing anti-Trump ads at this point.
Seeing her personally stand up to Trump and land a few blows, I think, is very important.

Speaker 17 But the other thing is on the issue stuff, I still think the bio ads, the biobiographical ads, might work well for Harris.

Speaker 17 The one thing that we know is that's happened in the last several weeks is her personal, favorable, unfavorable, personal, but her favorable, unfavorable, which presumably captures what people think of her, not so much the approval of Biden-Harris, the policies, and so forth, is about even.

Speaker 17 I think it was 49.50 maybe in the ABC poll, something like that, which is very good compared to where Biden has been, where she has been.

Speaker 17 She's been minus 13 and good compared to Trump, who's about minus nine, minus 10, in favorable, unfavorable. If she can make this election, who do you like better? Who do you respond to better?

Speaker 17 Which is not nothing in a presidential race where they're going to be in your living room, so to speak, for four years. I think she wins.
If it's on these issues, then it's a little bit up in the air.

Speaker 17 You know, which mistake of Trump versus which mistake of the Biden administration or which policy of Harris's that can get, you know, mischaracterized or characterized that isn't that popular.

Speaker 17 On the one hand, I think she needs to punch Trump. On the other hand, I think actually she still needs to build herself up.
If she is a favorable fave, unfave on election day, she will win, I believe.

Speaker 17 If she favorable, unfavorable sinks down to where Trump's is, even if it's about the same as Trump's, I suspect Trump wins.

Speaker 16 Yeah, well, this is why people don't talk about double haters anymore because there aren't any.

Speaker 16 It's because people like her. I mean, you know, besides Mag and Republicans.
I guess that's just a distinction. It's not that I don't want their run positive ads because I agree with you.

Speaker 16 I think people are still learning about her, right? Kind of. I think that's probably the reason why they like her favorability is going up, right? Because she's been pleasantly surprised.

Speaker 16 And you see this in the polls. You see it in focus groups of Sarah's focus groups.
You listen to those. You see it at my life.

Speaker 16 Like we had people over for the game last night, and people are like, yeah, boy, she's really surprised me. I liked her better than I thought I did.
And I had a misperception about her.

Speaker 16 And so a lot of that has been her performance. You can supplement that with paid, right, by telling people things about her that they don't know about her background, whether it's DA or prosecutor.

Speaker 16 And so I think that's good. And that gives her more room to grow for sure.
But we just got to do it. Let's do it.

Speaker 17 Yeah, that's how the bio. I don't know what you found.
It's just some personal interactions. I think this is a little bit in Sarah's focus groups, too.

Speaker 17 It's both the DA prosecutor, but actually it's her middle-class origins, working in McDonald's, the family, the mom, and so forth.

Speaker 17 I actually think some of that, which was so successful at the convention, they shouldn't just assume they've done the job on that. They should continue that stuff for quite a while, I think.

Speaker 16 The other thing she's got going for is Trump has really made a mess of the abortion situation.

Speaker 16 When we last taped on Friday with Margaret Hoover, at that time, Margaret and I were talking about this, and Trump had kind of implied he was going to vote for the Florida abortion measure because he doesn't like the six-week ban.

Speaker 16 And then a spokesperson had put out a statement saying that he did not say that, that he was just expressing his disapproval with the six-week limit in Florida.

Speaker 16 After we taped over the weekend, the next day, Trump then comes around and says, no, I'm not going to vote for this. I'm going to vote no on the Florida measure that would enshrine abortion rights.

Speaker 16 Both just...

Speaker 16 The fact that he's going to vote no, like that, just that's a nugget that people can say, that he is going to vote against a bill.

Speaker 16 So if you're wondering what would happen when it comes to his desk, he's going to vote against a bill that would enshrine abortion rights in the law in Florida.

Speaker 16 I think that hurts him with some of these potential voters. And then also just the flailing about

Speaker 16 about it is demonstrating somebody that recognizes the weak position that he's in.

Speaker 17 Yeah, certainly. I mean, he never seems to pay a price much for the flailing about, especially if he ends up in sort of a reasonable place.

Speaker 17 But here on abortion, I just think they need to say Trump is going to veto any attempt to protect reproductive rights that Congress passes and then just describe all the Project 2025 stuff to him.

Speaker 17 So it's not just codifying Roe, but it's also IVF and it's also contraception. And let's bring back to light Thomas's concurrence or whatever that was.
And

Speaker 17 Dobbs and Griswold is called into question as well. I mean, without getting too much in the weeds, but they need to get a little bit specific on that.
I think the issue remains very strong.

Speaker 17 There's just a huge amount of data on that for swing for Democrats and for swing voters. And Trump finally decided that he had to go along with the base on

Speaker 17 voting against the constitutional amendment that would protect abortion rights in Florida, voting against that. And I think they just need to wrap that around his neck.

Speaker 16 I was kind of surprised that he felt the need to do that. I mean, to me, that shows that there was actually some real pressure.
It's always hard for me to tell

Speaker 16 when

Speaker 16 a handful of prominent evangelicals express disappointment with Trump about something. Part of me is like, does he give a flip about them anymore?

Speaker 16 I mean, like, he already's got them wrapped around his finger, right? Like, they've already made the deal with the devil. Like, they're stuck with him now.

Speaker 16 But the fact that he felt pressured to say no makes me think that they

Speaker 16 that they thought that they had some real issues within the base on this, because it's not like it's fucking Trump. It's not like Trump hasn't not answered a question before.

Speaker 16 I mean, he still hasn't given his health care plan 10 years later. Like, he could have just not told anybody how he's going to vote on that ballot measure.

Speaker 17 It's not just the base. I think it's probably, don't you think maybe more the evangelicals who

Speaker 17 have been put off by Trump, and maybe a little more now after the last two, three years of just seeing just how bad it is in terms of his character and the messages and what Trumpism is.

Speaker 17 But the life issue is the one that they, you know, they are with Trump on, or with not Trump's true views, but with what Trump's policies on, let's just say, and against Harris's policies.

Speaker 17 And you just got to get that issue back, not so much to kind of turn out that last true believing Trumpist, but to turn out that evangelical who's turned off by Trump a bit, but who's still for her, maybe it's mostly her.

Speaker 17 For her, that pro-life issue remains very important.

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PayPal Inc. and MLS 910457.

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 6 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family.

Speaker 9 with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 10 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 13 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 2 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 9 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 7 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 1 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 16 Another piece of evidence that Trump is still flailing about a little bit and not doing anything to reshape this race back in his favor. He still can't figure out how to attack Kamala.

Speaker 16 And it's really kind of enjoyable to watch him.

Speaker 16 We're on the fourth nickname. Yeah.
Comrade Kamala, which I don't think is particularly inspired. Here's a new attack on you tried out on her with Mark Levin last night.
Let's listen to that.

Speaker 22 Now they have Kamala, who they say has many deficiencies, but she's a nasty person.

Speaker 22 The way she treated Mike Pence was horrible. The way she treats people is horrible.

Speaker 16 The way Kamala treated Mike Pence was horrible. I mean,

Speaker 16 like, what? Where does that even come from?

Speaker 17 The debate, I guess, the one time they ever encountered each other in 2020.

Speaker 16 But it was just a normal debate, right?

Speaker 17 She didn't treat him horribly.

Speaker 16 Yeah, it was just a normal debate. Last I checked, I mean, she did not send an angry mob of people to hang him.

Speaker 16 I'm pretty sure. This is where we need the George Conway in the episode.

Speaker 16 Just this level of sociopathy that you have to be at, that it doesn't even cross his mind that treating Mike Pence poorly shouldn't be the example that he goes to.

Speaker 16 Because he just doesn't think about other people's feelings, right?

Speaker 16 Literally, I don't think that it probably doesn't even occur to him the fact that it was his responsibility that Mike Pence had to get his family and flee from a mob.

Speaker 16 Yeah. What a person.
It was interesting to watch. She's a nasty woman.
He's back to nasty woman. It's just not Landon.

Speaker 16 He just doesn't have it with her right now.

Speaker 17 But I assume at the debate, they will give him three or four or five reasonably effective lines against the policies that have failed or are perceived to have failed most in the for the Biden-Harris administration, Afghanistan, inflation, the border, and just hammer.

Speaker 17 I mean, it'd be crazy not to, honestly. And then it becomes a question of how well she both defends herself, but also how much, how effectively she punches back.
For me, yeah, I agree.

Speaker 17 All this other stuff is just him indulging himself. And maybe, A, they can't persuade him what to say, or B, they just figure it doesn't matter what he says this week.
It's all the debate anyway.

Speaker 16 Going into the debate, I agree. But it's just like the fact that they cannot, I mean, they've gone through all of the paint-by-numbers political attacks.

Speaker 16 You know, she's a communist, she's extreme, she's a flip-flopper, you can't trust her.

Speaker 16 And then layered on top of the paint-by-numbers attacks, things that only Trump would do, like she's not really black, she's a DEI hire, right?

Speaker 16 But none of it is really working. And in some ways, they counteract each other in a way that has limited their ability to effectively define her so far.

Speaker 16 Like, if you just look at it right now, I can think about what I think would be the most effective tack on Kamala Harris, but we don't really know because they haven't dialed in on anything.

Speaker 17 I mean, maybe the good news might be that their polling and focus groups don't give them an obvious line of attack. They're all limited in certain ways or don't work with some subsets of voters.

Speaker 17 It's funny that Trump's so obsessed. Well, it's funny, it's the way he is, right? He thinks the personal attacks is what will win for him.
I mean,

Speaker 17 I'm not going to say he's wrong, but maybe he's unfortunately and sadly right.

Speaker 17 I guess my view is having been around politics for a while, but thinking maybe that we're still in a normal political situation is you have an administration that has a 40% approval rating.

Speaker 17 65% of the country think we're on the wrong track. Just attack the most unpopular policies of a relatively unpopular administration of which he's vice president.
This isn't very complicated.

Speaker 17 And normally that would put the challenger in a pretty good place, but that's not the way Trump thinks. And to be fair, maybe it's not the way politics works anymore.
I don't know.

Speaker 16 The other thing that in theory you could come up with is the phoniness, right? Like that she flip-flopped on certain things and etc. Problem with that is when you have J.D.

Speaker 16 Vance delivering that attack. How could you have chosen J.D.
Vance? I mean, he's one of the most phony people that we've seen on the national stage. There was one J.D.

Speaker 16 Vance quote from over the weekend. The guy just did so many podcasts.

Speaker 16 I do have to say, I think that my future ambitions for vice president are pretty limited by the amount of podcasting I've been doing because I'm not an asshole like J.D.

Speaker 16 Vance, but still, when you're producing the level of commentary that JD was apparently producing on podcasts, there's just a lot of material to work with.

Speaker 17 I say the opposite. It shows that you've got a bright political future.
He's the vice presidential nominee for one of the two major parties at age 39. Just keep it up, Tim.

Speaker 16 Okay, thanks, Bill.

Speaker 16 Here's one of his latest podcast moments that was resurfacing about the afghanistan withdrawal apparently afghanistan is a country of translators and interpreters because every single person that's coming in that's what they say this person is a translator and an interpreter he was saying that as part of a rant about how we should not be bringing in any immigrants or you know any any refugees any people seeking asylum from afghanistan not including the people that risked their lives to help the american military and help our country and help people like our friend Will Selber.

Speaker 16 It is astonishingly callous.

Speaker 16 And you lay it on top of like the comments about not caring about Ukraine, about the childless cat ladies, about how miserable single women are, about how it creeps him out for there to be a single teacher.

Speaker 16 He just comes off as a monstrous douche. There's just no other way around it.

Speaker 17 Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 17 And the Afghanistan stuff in particular, aren't we proud that we, I mean, we were at the ending of the war in Vietnam was a sad moment, but we did take in half a million Vietnamese and they've done very well in this country.

Speaker 17 And I think we think that was kind of the least we could do. And in Afghanistan, we had to pull out.

Speaker 17 I'm not going to relitigate all that, but taking in the people who actually worked for us, who were in danger and their families are in danger.

Speaker 17 Some of them and their families have been killed by the Taliban and by the people running Afghanistan now. And the idea that we wouldn't take them in.

Speaker 17 And incidentally, I don't know exactly how they're doing.

Speaker 17 It's quite too early to do the socioeconomic studies, but my impression here in Northern Virginia, where there are a lot of Afghans who sought asylum and have been resettled here, is they're doing fine and they're working hard and they're admirable people.

Speaker 17 But yeah, you're right. It's just so callous in a way that I don't think previous candidates, whatever their views on immigration policy were, they didn't sound like this.

Speaker 16 I'll put in the show notes, there's a beautiful story about our friend, our former colleague Will Selber, and his translitter that he helped get back here in

Speaker 16 USA today. It was in the paper last week.
And it's really, really lovely.

Speaker 16 And some Bulwark readers actually had been contributing to a GoFundMe to help get him home so it's a nice contrast with how jd dance looks at folks that were trying to help us and are just trying to come to the land of milk and honey

Speaker 20 ah greetings from my bath festive friends the holidays are overwhelming but i'm tackling this season with paypal and making the most of my money getting five percent cash back when i pay in four no fees no interest i used it to get this portable spa with jets now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal.

Speaker 16 Save the offer in the app. Ends 1231, see paypal.com slash promo terms.
Points give you redeem for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal Inc.
and MLS 910-457.

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houghton.

Speaker 7 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny, infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 10 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 13 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 2 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 9 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 12 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 1 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 16 We do have to end on a sad note on the foreign policy side of things.

Speaker 16 Since last podcast over the weekend, there was an Israeli military operation in Rafah, or I guess on the IDF were going into tunnels, and Hamas then, before they could get there, executed six hostages, including Hirsch Goldberg Poland, who's an American, whose parents spoke at both conventions.

Speaker 16 Just a horrific story. And I don't really have big political thoughts on this.

Speaker 16 The thing that has frustrated me most about the Israel situation is like when a thing like this happens, like I see on the internet that, you know, the people that are the most fervent in their backing of Israel respond to it by saying, see,

Speaker 16 like, Kamala Harris was wrong about this. Like, we needed to do even more aggressive attacks to go in.

Speaker 16 And then people that are critical of VB, there's plenty to be critical of VB, are like, see, like,

Speaker 16 this happened because we didn't get to a deal.

Speaker 16 We gave them too many weapons. And I just, I don't know that there's a clear answer here because

Speaker 16 we're dealing with people that just

Speaker 16 their levels of caring about humanity and caring about the hostages that they took is just pretty much zero.

Speaker 17 Yeah, obviously what happened on October 7th was horrible. The taking of hostages was a horrible part of that.
And the killing of murder of hostages subsequently is, I guess, even

Speaker 17 also horrible. So, I mean,

Speaker 17 what can one say? Yeah, the degree to which everyone takes, I wouldn't say they even take 10 seconds to say what... you and I just said, they go right to the political attacks, right?

Speaker 17 I mean, it's like they don't even pause for, you know, as I say, for a decent moment, a decent interval before going to that.

Speaker 17 I mean, look, Israel itself, there are massive demonstrations, including by people who are pretty conservative or pretty much on the right in the Israeli political scene, criticizing Nissan Yahoo for not prioritizing getting the hostages back.

Speaker 17 There are people defending. Biden, I guess, said that this morning in just a very brief answer to a question.
Weirdly, I'm very anti-Nessan Yahoo, but on this, I don't know what I think.

Speaker 17 I mean, maybe, though at the end of the day, Nissan Yahoo's right, you can't have an entire military operation hinge on not doing certain things you really think you have to do for the safety of the country because of a threat to kill hostages.

Speaker 17 So it just, I mean, harsh as that is to say. So I really don't know.
Yeah.

Speaker 16 Maybe a lesson everybody could take from it. The thing that got me a little emotional over the weekend was, I guess, Luke Bernard posted a picture of Hirsch Goldberg-Poland's bedroom.

Speaker 16 And he had in there a

Speaker 16 painting, I guess, that says Jerusalem is everyone's, and then has it in Hebrew and in Arabic.

Speaker 16 It feels like that is the model that everybody should be looking towards. Any other final thoughts, Bill?

Speaker 17 No, people should enjoy the rest of their non-laboring Labor Day, assuming they're not laboring. And I guess what, nine weeks to go in this election.

Speaker 16 It's unbelievable. I cannot believe we're at Labor Day 2024.
We'll be back tomorrow. We've got a double header.
We've got Mona Charon.

Speaker 16 Mona Charon wrote this amazing piece called What Are We Conserving? Exactly. I don't know if that was exactly the headline, but that was the sense of it.
What are conservatives conserving?

Speaker 16 What are we conserving? It was wonderful. I want to talk to her about that.
We've also got Sendra Brian Schatz. It's going to be a good episode.
Enjoy your Labor Day.

Speaker 16 I hope everyone had a wonderful weekend. I hope your Sunday night was a little bit better than mine was.
It was fine. We had fellowship, Bill.
You know, I had friends.

Speaker 17 You're putting on a brave frontier, Tim. I'm impressed.
I was waiting for the text this morning. You know, can't do the show this morning.
I mean, we'll have to put it off for a few days here. But I'm

Speaker 17 going to stiff upper lip, as the British used to say.

Speaker 16 I can't spin it. It was a brutal loss, though.
We had people over. It was lovely.
Everyone was having a good time. The bourbon was flowing.
We were chatting.

Speaker 16 And then, you know, anyway, sometimes it just doesn't go out the way you want it to. Bill Crystal, we'll see you back here next Monday.
Everybody else will see you tomorrow.

Speaker 16 Hope you had a wonderful weekend. Peace.

Speaker 16 and all your sympathies.

Speaker 16 Cry

Speaker 16 for

Speaker 16 me,

Speaker 16 cry for me.

Speaker 16 Plenty of time here, and I'd share consequence.

Speaker 16 If you don't hear back, then God had another plan.

Speaker 16 I've been on my chase to all my

Speaker 16 cry for

Speaker 16 me

Speaker 16 cry for me

Speaker 16 The Bullark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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