Adam Kinzinger: Trump Is Q

Speaker 1 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovny, and Carise Van Houten.

Speaker 1 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny, infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 1 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal. Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 1 Why is Adam after the Tanner family? What lengths will he go to? One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 1 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

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Speaker 3 Donald Trump is a weak man pretending to be strong.

Speaker 3 He is a small man pretending to be big.

Speaker 3 Man, I am proud to bring back to the Bulwark podcast, contributor to this very website, founder of the Country First Pack, which supports pro-democracy candidates, former Republican congressman, my buddy Adam Kinziger.

Speaker 3 What's up, man?

Speaker 4 Hey, buddy. What's going on?

Speaker 3 What a week, huh? What a week. I'm excited to talk to you about it.
But first, really quick, we're going to be together in person next Thursday, a week from today, Bulwark Live event in Dallas.

Speaker 3 It's almost sold out. I must have been your convention speech.
Huge rush of tickets over the last week. So we've almost filled up this theater.
It's going to be awesome. It's going to be fun.

Speaker 3 We'll hang out afterwards, have a beer. Check out thebulwark.com slash events if you are in Texas or want to make a last second trip and have a lone star with us.

Speaker 3 So I'm very much looking forward to it.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I've never done one of your live events, so it should be pretty good.

Speaker 3 They are fun, man. One nice thing, it always makes you feel good about everything because the people that show up to these things are like nice.
You know, they're good people, they're genuine.

Speaker 3 You get people from different ideologies in one room it's it's almost like a throwback i had a text every one of my buddies in dallas who's like my mom was at dinner with a trump to come la voting friend and she was like oh you'd like this podcast my son's friend does called the bulwark she's like i'm at the live event in dallas next week so that's dude listen i did an event up in cleveland it was just like some event and so i did like kind of a shaking people hands line thing and at seven eight ten people something like that were all mentioning the bulwark it's crazy you guys have done something we're killing it.

Speaker 3 We're taking over the world. Let's talk about that convention speech, man.
As much as we're taking over the world, you really did. That had to be just like the reaction to it.

Speaker 3 Did your phone just turn into a brick? I mean, they gave you the pretty prime time slot there. Like that you were the opener-opener for Kamala.

Speaker 4 Yeah, so I went, I gave the speech, and it's kind of interesting. I never get nervous before speaking or doing like TV.

Speaker 4 This was the exception. So I was nervous kind of in the back, you know, because everything's very machine-like.
They have, you know, a plan for you to rehearse the day before.

Speaker 4 And then they, you know, 45 minutes before, they bring you up. And I just had to kind of keep like not focusing on the fact that I was going out to give a speech.

Speaker 4 And then, of course, once I, literally, once I stepped foot on stage, it was, you know, you're, you're in your zone. But so I left the speech after I gave it.

Speaker 4 I'm walking up to the box where my wife is. And this is probably a 10-minute walk.
And by the time I got there, my phone was just almost unusable, which was nice.

Speaker 4 I mean, everybody sent me nice, encouraging things. And thankfully, Kamala went shortly after me.

Speaker 4 So all the attention was taken away which is good and uh so I was able to actually make it back to the box but yeah it was a good experience and at first I'll be honest with you I didn't know like you know at the beginning when I kind of laid down the marker about still being conservative you know I expected initially maybe there'd be some booze or kind of some muted applause and there really wasn't I mean people understood the game they understood that this is an alliance that's bigger than just them and I had a blast I mean it was a fun time excellent cute photo of you hugging the wife it was really it you know got my feels going.

Speaker 3 You know, I'm a softy on the inside. Yeah.
When did they tell you that you had such a prime slot? Like, you know, I mean, I knew that you were going to be there, but I don't know.

Speaker 3 I would have thought maybe you had had the Tuesday at six o'clock. When did you realize that you were the featured man?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I did too. I thought it would be like the, you know, the, they jam all the Republicans in one day and it's before prime time.

Speaker 4 But, well, so it's funny because everybody kind of knew I was speaking before I did. It was like the January 6th committee.
I, Pelosi already announced me on it before I even accepted it.

Speaker 4 But I got the call only about,

Speaker 4 man, it's got to be a week to 10 days before it. And then I found out just a couple days after I learned I was speaking about the location of it.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, well, there must be two Adam Kinzingers because there's no way they'd put me like right before her, but they did.

Speaker 4 And actually in hindsight, I think it worked very well because her speech, you know, was very reaching out, I guess the best word is very big tent.

Speaker 4 And I think it made sense to have a Republican just before that, which kind of set the tone well. So yeah, it was cool.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean, I just sometimes need to check on myself.

Speaker 3 You know, I'm a moderate squish, and I'm also, I'm also susceptible to like peens to like the American exceptionalism and the American spirit, like all that stuff. I'm a softy for all that.

Speaker 3 So, but I felt like there was a legitimate effort made in the speech by her to target, not you and me in particular, but like the Haley primary voters, the Georgia suburb voters that she's going to need.

Speaker 3 And I thought it came off very authentic. I don't know.
Were you kind of surprised by how much emphasis there was on that?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I was surprised by a couple of things. So, first off, not only her speech, but the whole convention, it did not go into like the woke direction, right?

Speaker 3 It was a little bit. Well, this is anti-woke.
Me and Crystal talked about this on Monday.

Speaker 3 Like, it was really kind of like not about oppression or grievance or the systemic things we need to fix, which, you know, there are systemic things we need to fix.

Speaker 3 So it's appropriate to talk about that. But like, it was the opposite.
It was about how grateful she was in a lot of ways.

Speaker 4 yeah you know it's funny because i basically after the speech was over i real it's something that hit me is like okay you know you and i have been well aware that over the last like eight years the republicans and donald trump specifically have like vacated a lot of centrist territory national defense right like american pride that's like generally kind of regular conservative regular liberal centrist territory he abandoned it and for the first time she took hold of that she basically came in and said if you're going to abandon the national defense real estate, if you're going to abandon USA chance, if your USA chants are for the wrong reason, like I'm going to take upside-down flagged USA chance.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 4 And that's what she did. And I was impressed.
And, you know, is it going to make a difference in the election? I think so.

Speaker 4 But even just as importantly, it's going to make a difference in how people perceive the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party used to be the working man party, right?

Speaker 4 The party of, you know, maybe a little different than the Republicans on defense, but still we're kind of unabashedly America's role in the world. And they're reclaiming that territory.

Speaker 4 And Donald Trump's just a whining, belly aching. America sucks.
You know, you say you love America, but you only love America as you envision it 50 years ago. You hate the America of today.

Speaker 4 And those are the kinds of things that even if not in two months, over the next couple of years, will really start to seep in.

Speaker 3 If it wasn't Trump, you know, if we'd lived in Earth 2 where like Nikki Haley could have been the Republican nominee, where she never was, like 70% of Kamlo's speech would have been unnecessary.

Speaker 3 Maybe it's not 70%, but about half of the attacks that were delivered, or not even attacks, about half of the themes, you know, about patriotism, about the prosecutor element.

Speaker 3 Like if on the other side, it wasn't somebody that was a criminal, that downtalked America, that wanted to tear up the Constitution, you know, it would have taken away the potency from a lot of what she said.

Speaker 3 I mean, they, like you're saying, like they literally ceded the territory to her, but I'm glad she seized it.

Speaker 4 The other thing that, by the way, just because I don't know if I've ever said this on here before, that always bewildered me about the Haley Trump thing and how the party just collapsed with Trump is, look, Haley, I think, probably could have won this election, right?

Speaker 4 And not only could she have won, she would have been president for eight years. Like, it was hard to imagine a chance that she wouldn't have gotten re-elected.

Speaker 3 We'll just do the inverse. Just flip it.

Speaker 3 Like, let's say that Biden was a stubborn old fart and stayed it out, and the Republicans had powerful people like Nancy Pelosi, like Mitch McConnell, that were able to push Trump off of the edge and they replace him with Haley.

Speaker 3 It would have just been a total inverse situation.

Speaker 4 Totally. And again, you would have had the presidency for eight years.

Speaker 4 Now, what they did is they backed a guy that probably, hopefully can't win, but you know, has less of a shot of winning and can only be president for four years anyway.

Speaker 4 So, I mean, it's like, even if the Democrats lose, we'll get to that. Yeah.
Well, but even if the Democrats lose, they'll probably win in four years if it's Trump.

Speaker 3 Okay. You know, I got to nag you a little bit.
You know, I love you. We're old pals.
Yeah. It was great that you were in that slot.
Shouldn't somebody else have been in it? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Where was everybody else? Have you talked to Chris Christie? Have you talked to Mitt? Have you talked to John Kelly? Any of these people?

Speaker 4 No, I mean, look, the few that I have, it's all like,

Speaker 3 oh, let's see how it goes.

Speaker 4 Or, you know, I'm trying to play this by you.

Speaker 3 However, it goes.

Speaker 3 There was a riot at the Capitol. That's how it went.
We've seen how it goes.

Speaker 4 Anyway, sorry. Here's the reality.
And you and I talked about this offline a little bit. And I'm just going to spill the beans to people.
So a lot of these folks, they're making money now. Okay.

Speaker 4 So they got out of politics. They're making money.
Their money is not in media. Their money is in, I'm going to work at private equity or I'm going to be a consultant.

Speaker 4 And they can survive in that role if they are not overly aggressive against the Republicans. You can survive with a past, but not a future that's aggressive against the Republicans.

Speaker 4 And that's why they're being quiet.

Speaker 4 I mean, because if all of a sudden you come out against Donald Trump and you work for a private equity firm and that private equity firm has defense contracts and they're worried that Trump's going to win and then you know violate that defense contract turn against that defense company because of that you're a liability all of a sudden and this is why a significant amount of people are staying quiet not all of them like I don't know what Liz Cheney's doing or anything like that but some of them I can tell you for a fact because I've talked to them and they've told me they're concerned about their ability to make money and I'll say this look If you were in the Bush administration 20 years ago, I don't think you still have a responsibility to always speak out.

Speaker 4 There's a point at which you do your duty and then you can move on.

Speaker 4 But if you were recently in government, you saw this stuff and you actually care about the future of the country, I mean, you've got to speak out. This is like the most important moment.

Speaker 4 You can shut up after November. You can shut up all you want after November, but this is like this moment.

Speaker 3 God,

Speaker 3 making it about money is even more depressing than some of the other theories, to be honest. And I do think Liz is going to end up coming out in the fall.

Speaker 3 And I think maybe some others, Esper, Esper seemed like he just needs the tiniest nudge on CNN the other day and on your network. What about Christy? What again?

Speaker 3 You don't have to betray private conversations, but I don't know. Maybe you should call him.
I don't know what's happening. It feels like he should be there.

Speaker 3 If you just listen to his speech, and people, if you haven't seen it, go back and YouTube the speech when he was dropping out in New Hampshire. It was powerful, man.

Speaker 3 Like, just doing that speech on stage in Pennsylvania, I think, would help. Like, he's good at that part of it.
And you just can't imagine that he's going to be not voting for Kamala.

Speaker 4 Look, I haven't talked with Chris about this.

Speaker 4 I guess I've kind of tried, but like, I wouldn't be surprised if he kind of pulls a Liz, comes out towards the end. You know, it's maybe a decent strategy.

Speaker 4 It's always good to show momentum at the end, as long as he does.

Speaker 3 Maybe the anniversary of the Hurricane Sandy hug with Obama.

Speaker 4 That wouldn't create any conspiracies, but like

Speaker 4 he would be good because he can prosecute such a case. I mean, he's also been clear.
He said this on the campaign trail. Like, he doesn't envision himself having a political future anymore.

Speaker 4 He said this was kind of his last hoorah. So I don't know what he's doing in the private sector.
I don't know if any of that comes into explain.

Speaker 4 I would be surprised as I would with Liz if by the time we get to October, they're still quiet. And then I think we can speak out even more at that point if they, if they haven't.

Speaker 3 All right. Well, I'm glad you were in there.
I'm glad you had the balls to do that. And it was a great speech.
And I think it bears out, right, to your point. Like you agree to do that.

Speaker 3 It's worth noting. You agree to do that.
You don't really know what the Democratic Convention is going to be like.

Speaker 3 Like you don't have control over who they put after you or before you or what, you know what I mean? Like, it was just, you're doing the right thing and you see how the chips fall.

Speaker 3 And I think they put on a convention around you that was like right in theme with what you would have said regardless, which is great.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, is there wasn't a ton that she said in her speech after me that I would have been like, oh, I don't want to be associated with that.

Speaker 4 I mean, she was unabashedly hawkish, pro-American. You know, the interesting thing, though, yes, I got all the nice texts, but, you know, we've all experienced this.

Speaker 4 This was a few weeks ago, but I had somebody that texted me.

Speaker 4 So this wasn't related to a speech that said, basically, it was my fault that the guy tried to shoot Donald Trump because of what I'm saying on television.

Speaker 4 You know, I had somebody that texted me after the speech that, you know, is a great friend that basically is like, well, I was able to tolerate you going so far, but this is too far.

Speaker 4 And it's like, you know, you deal with that and it hurts, but this is what taking a stand is. And that's why not everybody does it.

Speaker 3 I'm proud of you. We haven't mentioned on the on this, so I just will take this opportunity to.

Speaker 3 There was an FBI report this week about that shooter, and it plays out exactly as I think what you and I talked about after it when we were speculating, which was it's a young troubled man,

Speaker 3 man, barely, you know, that was looking for various, you know, ways to go shoot something up to become famous. And he realized Trump was coming to his neighborhood.

Speaker 3 And, like, when it comes down to it, it is the same story as so many of these situations, where it's somebody with mental health troubles who has too easy access to high-capacity weapons.

Speaker 3 Like, that's it. Like, that's what it was.
And it's something about all the navel gazing we do to just think about how much breath was spent on what was said on CNN panels.

Speaker 3 And, like, that really just wasn't it.

Speaker 4 And it's still insane to me that we raise the age of smoking, but you can buy in some states, you can still buy an AR-15 at 18. You can buy the ammunition for the ARs at 18.

Speaker 4 You can't buy a handgun until you're 21, which I guess is okay. But there's, yeah, there's this mismatch.
And it's like, between the age of 18 to 21, we are all psycho.

Speaker 4 Like, I hate to tell you, we all have crazy thoughts at that age.

Speaker 4 And if you can at least delay that to 21, you can get a lot of the shooters out of the schools because many of them are like 18, 19 years old. But we've got to have a conversation.

Speaker 4 But evidently, you can't smoke now, but you can still buy a extremely. Have a white cloth.

Speaker 3 Yeah, or have a white old white cloth.

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Speaker 1 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 1 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny, infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 1 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal. Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 1 Why is Adam after the Tanner family? What lengths will he go to? One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 1 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 3 All right, speaking of why this was so important that you and hopefully some of your other colleagues eventually come around to where you are on this, Donald Trump has been posting on his social media feed the last couple of days, and he's like back in 2016 form.

Speaker 3 And it's just, I think, important to highlight a couple of these.

Speaker 3 He had put up a, I guess, a transcript of something that Nicole Shanahan, who was RFK's VP back when he was running, who's kind of an insane person, frankly, had said something, I think, on CNN about how she now believes that the justice system is out to target Trump and all this conspiracy nonsense.

Speaker 3 He posted that. And then a bunch of people replied to him, naturally, with conspiracy memes.
And he started reposting all of them.

Speaker 3 It includes how to actually fix the system, then Orange Jumpsuit, Joe Biden, Hunter, Nancy, Hillary, Fauci, Gates, and Kamala. It includes re-truth if you want to lock them up.
So then he retruths it.

Speaker 3 So cool, he wants to lock him up. That includes you.
Congratulations.

Speaker 4 Liz Cheney, Benny Thompson, zoe lofgren adam schiff also retruth if you want military tribunals and then one more to your point from earlier this is not another four-year election which maybe is a little less direct than the other three but still it's a little concerning to hear somebody that tried to coup already say this is not a four-year election because it is what the fuck what are we doing i mean i get it because humans like you can't continue to be outraged over and over but like why isn't this on the front of every paper on every news channel if i randomly come on started posting these things it would leave the nightly news rightly rightly it would absolutely and the problem is is nobody's you know besides bulwark listeners and people on truth social are gonna know he's doing this crazy stuff because you know truth social is an echo chamber he uses that to spin up his base but it's also giving marching orders to folks i mean by the way Quick aside, I don't know how many times I've been threatened to be in Gitmo.

Speaker 4 So just get on with it, people. Either send me to Gitmo or quit talking about it.
Like, I'm happy to go. If you want to have a military tribunal with me, okay.
It's been six years of threatening this.

Speaker 4 So let's just get on with it or just move on, right? Because it's like the same stuff, okay? This over and over, the Q's coming. Kensinger is going to Gitmo.
We're going to have military tribunals.

Speaker 4 But Donald Trump is basically not even flirting with Q anymore. He is Q now.
Like he is doing this.

Speaker 4 And this is like, if you're a Republican, if you're an anti-ante, or you're like, I don't like Kamala's policy on,

Speaker 4 like, fine, okay? But do you want America to continue as a country? Do you want self-governance to continue? Then get over yourself. Get over your little policy differences.
Because guess what?

Speaker 4 You're going to have policy differences with Trump. You're going to have policy differences with your wife.
You're going to have policy differences with Kamala.

Speaker 4 And if you live to be 100 years old, you're going to have policy differences with whoever's president then. But this is an existential moment.

Speaker 4 We're calling for a little more than your little pride about a policy difference.

Speaker 4 We're calling for actually returning sanity to this country and getting rid of a guy, flushing him down the toilet of history that's posting stupid crap that 17-year-olds in their parents' basement post.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, if you were working at an Arby's and your fellow cashier was posting this, you'd be like, that guy's not on the management track.
I mean, this is crazy shit.

Speaker 4 If your grandpa was posting this, you'd be like, I think it's time for GAMPS to consider a home. I mean, honestly.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 let's give them one of those things you do for the kids where you give them an iPad that only lets them go to certain websites.

Speaker 3 Like, what the fuck?

Speaker 4 Or the big telephone, the jitterbug. Yeah.

Speaker 3 It is insane and crazy, but all our listeners do this, so we can have one moment of fun with it. Given those names, Joe Hunter, Nancy Hillary, Fauci Gates, Kamala, you,

Speaker 3 Liz, Benny Thompson, Zoe Lofgren, Adam Schiff, Pete Aguilar, Stephanie Murphy, Barack Obama.

Speaker 3 I want you to tell me who you would most like to dorm with at Gitmo and who you would least like to dorm with.

Speaker 4 Probably among the top is like Benny Thompson because he's real easy to get along with.

Speaker 4 And I feel like I could drink with him if we could get some rum snuck in. Yeah, I could see that.
Stephanie Murphy was really cool. She's tough.

Speaker 4 She always like defends herself, which I like and I respect. So I think we could kind of cook some stuff up or cook some escape roots out of Gitmo.
Pete Aguilar is fun too. I mean, young guy.

Speaker 4 So I feel like between me, Pete, Benny, Stephanie Murphy, like the parties would be off the chain.

Speaker 4 And that probably the Gitmo points would give us our own little area where we can kind of be detained, but also throw big parties.

Speaker 3 Who's at the bottom of the list? I noticed you hid from that question. Who do you not want to be? Who do you not want to be jailed with?

Speaker 4 I don't know. I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 3 A lot of interesting questions for Bob with Gates.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that'll be the headliner. So, yeah, there'd be some boring people on that.

Speaker 3 No, I don't know. I'm interested.

Speaker 4 I'm a good party.

Speaker 5 Hillary.

Speaker 4 I mean, if you're on Getmo, you got nothing to say.

Speaker 3 Hillary, you can say it. It's Hillary.
You can say it. You just spoke at the DNC convention.
We honor you, Hillary. I voted for you.
Okay, I voted for you.

Speaker 3 I don't know if I want to be in a jail cell with you.

Speaker 4 I'm not sure. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 We got some other business. Arlington Cemetery.
Oh, my gosh. Will Selber, our former colleague at the Blork, is just an unbelievable Afghan vet.
He wrote for us this morning.

Speaker 3 We'll put it in the show notes. I highly recommend everybody go read it.
The headline is: Trump spoils one of our few sacred spaces. Section 60 matters deeply for post-9/11 veterans.

Speaker 3 There was a confrontation between one of the women that works at Arlington that said, you're not allowed to video in this Section 60. And there was a physical altercation.

Speaker 3 The Trump campaign put out a statement that she was having a mental health episode. You know, they were videoing Trump and put it up on TikTok amidst the gravestones.
So, anyway, thoughts on that?

Speaker 4 I mean, first off, to go after this lady for a mental health episode, look, she probably was irate because she knew exactly what was being done.

Speaker 4 And if you think about it, if you're an employee or a volunteer in this area, your whole being is focused on honoring these folks and keeping politics out of it.

Speaker 4 I mean, that's the thing is this is not political. And, you know, they can try to say, well, you know, wherever we were, that family wanted us there.
Okay, fine. Guess what?

Speaker 4 You don't get to make that decision, even if you have somebody you love that's resting in that area. You don't get to make that decision on behalf of the thousands of others there either.

Speaker 4 You don't get to do a thumbs up and smile, even though you may want your picture with the former president. If this was a cemetery with just your fallen loved one, I would agree.

Speaker 4 You get to make that decision. But this is a decision as a country that we have decided to keep this out of.
It's not even that he doesn't care about the fallen or he calls them suckers and losers.

Speaker 4 He's physically,

Speaker 4 you talk about a mental health problem. He is physically incapable of having empathy, sympathy, or thinking of anything besides himself.

Speaker 4 And I'm going to tell you, if you're only thinking about yourself, that is the best photo op you can get is standing there in Arlington National Cemetery.

Speaker 4 Only if you give a rat's ass about the people that have fallen and about politicizing the fallen would you defer. But he obviously doesn't care.

Speaker 4 And by the way, I guarantee you that whoever his staff was that had this confrontation with the lady has never served a day in their life, never considered serving a day in their life.

Speaker 4 And frankly, is the same people that are on the internet that are going after veterans that don't like Donald Trump and saying that they're betraying their country.

Speaker 4 How many times I've been called a traitor, you know, despite the fact that it's by these kids that have never served a day in their life? Like, fine, whatever. But I hope America sees through this.

Speaker 4 I beg it.

Speaker 3 There was a little karma in that photo op. I don't know if you noticed it.
Utah Governor Spencer Cox, who I've always liked. I've tried to get him on the pod a bunch of times.

Speaker 3 As far as Republicans go these days, he's about as decent as you can get. I mean, he, he stood up to an anti-trans bill in the state, tried to find a compromise.

Speaker 3 He's good on refugees and immigration stuff. He seems like a decent person.
And he was anti-Trump.

Speaker 3 But for political reasons in Utah, he put out some statement a couple of weeks ago about how he was going to be for Trump. And Trump loves a convert, right? So he was with him.
at this.

Speaker 3 So he's in that photo. And it's just like, I don't know, man.
If I were a Mormon and I believed that,

Speaker 3 you you know, there was consequences for your sins. It seems like he might have experienced it because he has to put out this statement and be like, I didn't know.

Speaker 3 And, you know, there he is doing the opposite Kinzinger in Arlington Cemetery with Donald Trump.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And it just goes to show.
I mean, I like Spencer Cox, too. I know him.
And, I mean, he's legitimately as anti-Trump as we are. And I'm disappointed.

Speaker 4 that he has he has made this you know deal with the devil because he's made it through his primary and everything like he's good but like obviously he's never served so he posts a picture of smiling thumbs up at a gravestone and to him it seems fine and yeah it backfires and and he deserves every bit of that backfire this is this is insane and and i just again If we're going to sit here and say that this, it's okay to go into...

Speaker 4 Now every congressional campaign, every state rep campaign is going to have to go to Arlington National Cemetery with their campaign signs and get their picture taken.

Speaker 4 If we want to do this, we can't just make an exception for Donald Trump because he's Donald Trump. We can't just make an exception for the people running for president.

Speaker 4 Now every candidate can go to Arlington and make a spectacle of it. Do we really want that, America? I don't think we do.

Speaker 3 Great point. Some of the families that I think are for pro-Trump or Republican, whatever, families of the people that died in Afghanistan did defend him.

Speaker 3 And one of the things they pointed out was that Kamala has

Speaker 3 you know, not been contacting them, not been supporting an investigation into what happened at Abbey Gate, taking the Arlington bullshit aside. Like, there's something to be said for that, right?

Speaker 3 I don't know. I kind of understood why Biden, like, this was baggage.
If Biden was at the top of the ticket, it doesn't help at all to talk about it.

Speaker 3 Shouldn't Kamala do something, right, to like acknowledge the folk that died at Abbey Gate and try to like bring a little closure to this? Is that element of this at least a little bit fair?

Speaker 4 I think so. I think, like, first off, we need to keep in mind, if she does that, it's not going to assuage this.

Speaker 4 I mean, I really believe the Trump people have used Abbey Gate now as a political weapon, as terrible as it was. And we need to be clear about something.

Speaker 4 The whole reason we were faced with an Abbey Gate is because Mike Pompeo and Donald Trump cut the worst deal with the Taliban and basically put Biden in a situation where he either had to increase troop numbers, which was politically untenable for him, or withdraw.

Speaker 4 Now, the execution of that withdrawal was a disaster. I'm not sure how much better it could have gone with the exception of keeping Bagram Air Base open instead of Kabul International Airport.

Speaker 4 But I heard you mention the other day, we've been critical of this withdrawal forever, and we should be. And so, yes, Kamwell, I think, can get some answers on that.

Speaker 4 I'm not sure what other answers there are to get besides, look, there was a pretty jacked-up withdrawal, and terrorists took advantage of it. That's the answer.

Speaker 3 Yeah, right. And she could just acknowledge that.
She could acknowledge that there's going to be a review. I mean, you know, because nobody was fired, right? Like, I'm going to do a review.

Speaker 3 I just think that there's some like basic things. I'm going to do a review.
I contacted the family.

Speaker 3 It just kind of seems like a basic, decent thing to do. And it doesn't have any the baggage of Biden, right? Like doing it, right? Because she wasn't in the chain of command.

Speaker 4 I fully agree. And there should have been people fired from DOD and State Department because keep in mind how jacked up the visa thing was.
Oh my God.

Speaker 3 It was

Speaker 3 worse, really. Honestly.

Speaker 3 Awful.

Speaker 4 And I remember in May, by the way, Tim, like that state, when we're like, hey, you guys have got to process these special immigrant visas because this thing is going to fall apart.

Speaker 4 They basically announced they were taking COVID protocols because COVID was increasing in Afghanistan. And they basically vacated the embassy and decided to do this all virtually.

Speaker 4 So yeah, I'm still pretty bitter about all that.

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Speaker 3 I want to do a quick, some quick poll talk and then a couple other items in the news. I want to get your take on Ukraine.
And maybe we can just dunk on Megan Kelly for one second.

Speaker 3 But the polls, Fox out yesterday. Fox is a pretty good pollster on like the news side of things.
Plus one in North Carolina for Trump. Harris is plus two in Georgia and Nevada and plus one in Arizona.

Speaker 3 So it's these Sunbelt states. Harris winning three, Trump winning one, but all within the margin.
Emerson, less good pollster, but we'll just say it, throw it in the pile.

Speaker 3 Trump plus three in Arizona, plus one in North Carolina, plus one in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania tied. Harris plus one in Nevada, Georgia, and plus three in Michigan.

Speaker 3 I bring all this up just to make two points. One, the Georgia news is objectively good on both of those.
An eight-point swing in Fox from Biden to Harris in Georgia from down six to plus two.

Speaker 3 Harris then also winning Georgia in Emerson. That's important because Trump's path to victory pretty much requires Georgia.
And so I think that that is encouraging.

Speaker 3 On the other hand, you know, there's a lot of people are maybe sniffing their farts a little too much right now because things have been very good the last five weeks.

Speaker 3 But man, that is, those numbers show a very, very tight election here coming in the fall.

Speaker 3 And polls that come out today, Wednesday, Thursday, are starting to maybe not completely take in the convention bounce, but now we're getting, you know, what things look like post-convention.

Speaker 3 What do you think?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, look, it's, it makes me sick that it's still tied, to be honest with you. I, again, I don't understand it.

Speaker 4 I don't understand how anyone can vote for this guy, but let's just be objective now and instead of have an opinion, which is it is a devastatingly tight race. And I,

Speaker 4 you know, short of something major happening, I don't see any way we go into election day with a good feeling about who's going to win.

Speaker 4 And this is where, then, as you guys have covered a bunch, the ground game does matter. Like, no more money.
I mean, money is important and everybody still give.

Speaker 4 But, you know, it's like, okay, I saw three ads during my daily stories instead of four ads. It's not going to make a difference in how you vote.
It's important to be on TV.

Speaker 4 But what is going to matter is those field operations, making sure that everybody votes early because any given day, whatever it is, one person of the country is sick, right so you want to make sure you get your vote in early driving people to the polls and this is where harris has a massive advantage if you take literally all things being equal it's a tie race in georgia for instance harris will win every time because she has a better ground game so that's an advantage that they have but this is a dead nuts close race and uh we're not going to have any idea come election day who's going to win i really don't believe it Yeah, I agree with that.

Speaker 3 If you have any elderly family members, voting early is important this year. I feel like he's that tight.
I like the Jimmy Carter thing.

Speaker 3 I love that he's like, I'm sticking around to vote early in Georgia. I don't have it in front of me.
Like, the Georgia early voting starts in late September, I think, mid-September.

Speaker 3 But it's like, I'm making it to then just so that I can file my.

Speaker 4 If she wins by one, that'll be like the most. That's how you know that, you know, history is not random.
Somebody's writing it at that point.

Speaker 3 Yeah, or living in a simulation. Yeah.
You were on, you told me, a Ukraine pod this morning. So I feel like I've been remiss in covering Ukraine.

Speaker 3 We're doing the best we can with all the domestic news. From your sense, what's the latest following the incursion into Kursk and everything else happening over there?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so it's the podcast: Ukraine the latest. It's Telegraph, and they basically cover Ukraine very well.
You had Michael Weiss on, and he's one of the best on this.

Speaker 4 Just the basic top line is: Ukraine continues to own and expand the area of Kursk.

Speaker 4 So basically, they have taken more territory in Russia of Russian territory than Russia has taken in Ukraine in the last year, which is incredible.

Speaker 4 But the big issue right now, as Russia continues to ramp up its ballistic missile attacks, its drone attacks, is that we are still preventing Ukraine. It's nonsensical.

Speaker 4 We're still preventing Ukraine from hitting Russian targets in Russia with American weapons.

Speaker 4 And so if you have these glide bombs or these missiles that are being launched literally at civilians in Ukraine, they're sitting there with the capacity to take out these planes on the runway, but the United States is not letting them.

Speaker 4 This continues to be

Speaker 4 a big problem.

Speaker 4 And I don't understand. This is one area where I'll be be critical of the administration.
I don't understand what their continued hesitancy is.

Speaker 4 I mean, Ukraine has invaded Russia for God's sakes, which is actually Russia's stated red line for nuclear weapons.

Speaker 4 They're not gonna go escalate to nuclear weapons because they're now using American weapons in Russia on legitimate targets. So, this is the big thing.

Speaker 4 The other big thing we're watching is continued personnel shortage on both sides of this fight. I mean, Russia's lost 600,000 people, more than the U.S.
lost in World War War II.

Speaker 3 Think about that.

Speaker 4 Russia has lost to take almost no territory. This is just a matter of, I think Vladimir Putin is waiting to see who wins this election.

Speaker 4 There's no way he'll negotiate in good faith until he sees Donald Trump lose.

Speaker 3 100% agree with you on all that, obviously. This reminds me, something that I almost forgot to bring up on the podcast, but just listening to you talk about allyship with Ukraine.

Speaker 3 There was another big news story involving you this week, and that was Senator Mike Lee, also out of Utah. Oh, Mike.
Senator Mike Lee accused you.

Speaker 3 Well, it didn't personally accuse. He elevated the accusation of a criminal who lives in New Zealand named Kim.com.

Speaker 3 Made the accusation that there's an online group called NAFO, N-A-F-O, that does, you know, basically memes and pro-Ukraine support, right?

Speaker 3 Like, you know, trying to, you know, support the effort in Ukraine online with being positive, with outing Russian bots, things of this nature.

Speaker 3 Mike Lee said that that group, NAFO, this sort of online meme army, if you will, was actually a CIA operation. And the point man for that CIA operation is right here on this podcast, Adam Kinziger.

Speaker 3 So I have to ask you, is Mike Lee correct? Are you a CIA operative running the NAFO campaign?

Speaker 4 I can neither confirm nor deny it.

Speaker 3 I'll say this.

Speaker 4 There's no way this podcast episode's going up now. I got people in high places.
No, look, this is what's insane.

Speaker 4 So NAFO is literally kind of at the beginning of the war, this dude created North Atlantic Fellas organization.

Speaker 4 and the whole point was just to like, you know, push back against this crap we see on the internet of this Russian bots.

Speaker 4 And it actually has grown into this like phenomenon that truly will be studied for a long time.

Speaker 4 I would consider myself a NAFO member, and usually they have, you see, cartoon dogs like Sheba and you're right. Like, and anyway, it's been really effective.

Speaker 4 I mean, it's actually driven Russian officials off of Twitter because of this. So this Kim.com says that it's a, you know, it's dying because the CIA is not funding it anymore.

Speaker 4 And I've been the leader of it. And I pushed back on that kind of laughingly, like, yeah, hey, guys, our budget was reauthorized, and now we have to be worse.

Speaker 4 And freaking Mike Lee, used to be a serious constitutional scholar, tweeted like something about along the lines of there should be no government, you know, blah, blah, blah, and doing this online.

Speaker 4 Like, first off, screw you, Mike, because there actually should be government efforts to push back against propaganda.

Speaker 4 But beyond that, this is just a bunch of people from a bunch of different countries doing some fun stuff. And what an idiot.
What an unserious idiot. Seriously.

Speaker 3 Mike Lee, one of our senators, based Mike Lee, is his Twitter. The unserious idiot.

Speaker 3 One more foreign, relatively foreign, but it's become a domestic issue I saw you tweeting about that I want to get your take on. So Telegram.

Speaker 3 Looks kind of like WhatsApp, if people are familiar with that, or Signal.

Speaker 3 It's an app that people use for one-to-one communication, but it is expanded on the right and apparently into some other areas, but at least politically on the right as kind of like a mass communicating thing for a listserv almost, like a texting listserv.

Speaker 3 I was on Lynn Woods Telegram for a while, which had a disturbing number of followers. He was one of the stop the steal freaks who was arguing that Trump was the secret president well into like 2022.

Speaker 3 The Telegram founder, Pavel Durov, got arrested over criminal activity on the platform.

Speaker 3 The Tucker Carlsons, that world is all out there saying, oh, this is part of the New World Order's plot to stop us.

Speaker 3 And you sent a tweet that titillated me a little bit saying that that's not really the full story here.

Speaker 4 Yeah, so two things. Let's back up a second.
When you now see Republicans defending all this idea of free speech and Donald Trump, you have to ask yourself why.

Speaker 4 Do you remember back when Donald Trump almost shut down the government or wouldn't sign an NDAA on the issue of Section 230?

Speaker 4 Section 230 is part of the law that basically protects Twitter and Facebook from from being sued for what is done on their platform.

Speaker 4 Donald Trump wanted to rescind that to basically make Twitter and Facebook accountable for what's on their platform. Now, all of a sudden, Donald Trump is Mr.
Free Speech. Why?

Speaker 4 Because Elon bought Twitter and everything else. Telegram, so on this platform, they have done nothing to push back against child pornography, against drugs, against prostitution.

Speaker 4 So as well as this right-wing chatter, there is this stuff stuff that's happening, which is basically why he was arrested by France.

Speaker 4 But the reason the Russians are so scared and some on the right is because a lot of Russian intelligence operations and Russian military coordination is done through Telegram.

Speaker 4 So it's basically a commander here and a commander here, an FSB operative here or an FSB operative here.

Speaker 4 Though you ask yourself, why is it Vladimir Putin was freaking out when he actually had a pretty hostile relationship with Telegram three or four years ago?

Speaker 4 It's because his people are using it and their influence operations are not only happening in Telegram, they're actually using Telegram to then coordinate their influence operations around the world again, as well as military movements.

Speaker 4 So that is why they're scared to death. It has nothing to do with all of a sudden Vladimir Putin's newfound appreciation for free speech.

Speaker 3 Got it. Okay, so those are some valuable servers then potentially.
We'll keep monitoring that story. All right.
We're going to close with a one-minute hate and then a one-minute joy.

Speaker 3 Our one-minute hate is going to be Megan Kelly. Let's listen to Megan Kelly talking about Caitlin Collins of CNN.

Speaker 7 I'm sorry, but she's only a star with leftists. And the fact that she has some roots in Alabama does not make her a fair and balanced reporter.

Speaker 7 I will submit to the record, her biggest sin is not that she is biased, though she is. It's that she's boring.
She's extremely boring with no personality. I have a pro tip for her.
Smile.

Speaker 7 Try smiling every once in a while. Try not to be like in your delivery, such a cold-hearted all the time, because it gives people nothing to bond to.

Speaker 7 You can be a tough interviewer and also have some warmth.

Speaker 3 It's maybe a takes one-to-know one situation. Megan Kelly talking about Caitlin Collins, your colleague at CNN.
What's fucking wrong with these people?

Speaker 4 I don't know. I actually think Caitlin Collins is a great journalist.
I actually just told her that recently is like, a journalist's job isn't to be your friend. A journalist's job is to be serious.

Speaker 4 Is she not smiling all the time? Good. That means she's a serious newspaper.

Speaker 4 Megan Kelly is the one that went from like Donald Trump saying blood out of her whatever to now as hardcore in Trump village as she can be because she got fired and she needs to make money.

Speaker 4 Like that to me is.

Speaker 4 poor journalism, not somebody who doesn't smile all the time. What a huge jerk.

Speaker 4 I mean, and then it sounds more like jealousy because at least Caitlin's Caitlin's still at a major network and, you know, Kelly's out there doing her own Twitter or whatever she's got.

Speaker 3 It does sound like jealousy. And it's just like, what are you doing? Like, you're putting on a cheerleader outfit for Donald Trump for this? Yeah.
Like, calling Caitlin Collins, the B word.

Speaker 3 Caitlin Collins, I think, has done a great job. She got put in a really bad situation by CNN on that Trump town hall.

Speaker 3 And so I think some on the left think that, like, whatever, that she wasn't tough enough on him or that she didn't, but she was put in a horrible situation by Chris Lake.

Speaker 3 That was all Chris Lick's fault. And I think Caitlin has has done a phenomenal job.

Speaker 4 I thought she did as good of a job as you could do for the guy that just basically vomits words out constantly.

Speaker 3 Yeah, with a rooting section in the audience. So, anyway, Caitlin, we honor Caitlin on this podcast.
Megan Kelly can eat a dick, not in a good way.

Speaker 3 I saw you tweet this. I was like, we have to share this joy with the listeners.
There's a little musical number that was put out by, you might remember Ron Swanson from Parks and Rec.

Speaker 3 Strong Republican, strong Republican, Ron Swanson. It turns out, like Adam Kinziger, Ron Swanson is for Kamala.
Let's listen to a little bit of his musical tribute to Kamala Harrison.

Speaker 3 It's time to stand up and face the facts after all the scams and tricks.

Speaker 3 He's a half-assed Putin wannabe.

Speaker 3 Yes, Trump's a fucking dick.

Speaker 3 Trump's a fucking dick. We don't bleep on the Bulwark podcast.
That was on whatever I just grabbed that from that they had to bleep. There you go.
Nick Offerman, Ron Swanson.

Speaker 3 That's an Adam Kinzinger Kamala man song, if I've ever heard one.

Speaker 4 That is. And Nick Offerman is from the district I used to represent, from Manooka, Illinois.
He lived, he grew up about three miles from where I live, and I haven't met him yet.

Speaker 4 So, Nick, if you're a Bulwark listener,

Speaker 4 let's get a beer sometime.

Speaker 3 We got to make that happen. Maybe he'll be like the Beyoncé of the Bulwark Live event in Dallas next Thursday.
Secret cast

Speaker 3 that we think might come, that everyone says might come, but it doesn't actually show up. We appreciate you, Nick Offerman, Adam Kinziger.
You are the best.

Speaker 3 Can't wait to have a beer with you next Thursday. Everybody else, we'll be back for Friday edition of the Bulwark Podcast tomorrow.
See y'all then. Peace.
See ya.

Speaker 3 I am light as a feather and

Speaker 3 That's for sure.

Speaker 3 And I am built like a mother and a total machine.

Speaker 3 I feel for your every little issue. I know just what you mean.

Speaker 3 And I make light of the darkness. I've got sun in my motherfucking pocket.
Makes me wear you.

Speaker 3 Forgive and I forget.

Speaker 3 I know my age and I act like it. Got what you can't resist.

Speaker 3 I'm a perfect American. I am light as a feather, I'm as fresh as the air.

Speaker 3 Coca-Cola bottles they only used to curl my hair.

Speaker 3 God class and integrity, just like the goddamn Kennedy, I swear.

Speaker 3 With love to spare.

Speaker 3 Forget heaven, I forget.

Speaker 3 I know my age, and I act like it. God, what you can't resist.

Speaker 3 I'm a perfect all-American bitch

Speaker 3 with perfect all-American lips

Speaker 3 and perfect all-American hips.

Speaker 3 I know my place, I know my place.

Speaker 3 If it's it, I don't get angry when I'm pissed. I'm beaten all of the lips.
I scream inside the feeling

Speaker 3 like you.

Speaker 3 The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 8 Even though severe cases can be rare, respiratory syncytial virus, or RSV, is still the leading cause of hospitalization in babies under one.

Speaker 8 RSV often begins like a cold or the flu, but can quickly spread to your baby's lungs. Ask your doctor about preventative antibodies for your baby this season and visit protectagainstrsv.com.

Speaker 8 The information presented is for general educational purposes only.

Speaker 3 Please ask your healthcare provider about any questions regarding your health or your baby's health.

Speaker 8 Even when you're playing music,

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Speaker 8 Your baby shouldn't receive Bifortis if they have a history of serious allergic reactions to Baportis, nursevimab ALIP, or any of its ingredients.

Speaker 8 Tell your baby's doctor about any medicines they're taking and all their medical conditions, including bleeding or bruising problems. Serious allergic reactions have happened.

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Speaker 8 Most common side effects include rash and pain, swelling, or hardness at their injection site. Individual results may vary.
Ask your baby's doctor about Bayfortis.

Speaker 8 Visit Bayfortis.com or call 1-855-BEFORTIS.

Speaker 8 Even though severe cases can be rare, Respiratory syncytial virus or RSV is still the leading cause of hospitalization in babies under one.

Speaker 8 RSV often begins like a cold or the flu, flu, but can quickly spread to your baby's lungs. Ask your doctor about preventative antibodies for your baby this season and visit protectagainstrsv.com.

Speaker 8 The information presented is for general educational purposes only.

Speaker 3 Please ask your healthcare provider about any questions regarding your health or your baby's health.