Mark Leibovich: The Democrats' Rumor Mill

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Speaker 8 What lengths will he go to?

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Speaker 12 Hey, everybody, everybody, big show today. I've got a couple of programming notes for you real quick.
I am going to be a guest speaker at Yimby's for Harris, Y-I-M-B-Y-S. You know what Yimby is?

Speaker 12 Yes, in my backyard. We need to build, baby, build.
I've been so encouraged that it seems like Barack Obama is a YIMBY per my interview with Jon Favreau last week.

Speaker 12 Kamala Harris has come around on this. We need to build 3 million new houses.

Speaker 12 This is something that, let's just be honest, Democrats have been a little bit behind the ball on when it comes to our housing crisis. I think it's one of the most important issues that face us.

Speaker 12 I'm pumped that there's a group out there that is both demonstrating support for Kamala Harris and building support for her, and also demonstrating that there is huge support for this issue, and she should follow up on her promises if she's to win in November.

Speaker 12 So I'm pumped to be part of this Yimbies for Harris, Brian Schott, Senator from Hawaii, Westmore, Governor of Maryland, London Breed, San Francisco, and myself. It's Wednesday.
It's tomorrow night.

Speaker 12 You can come hang out. Yimbies for Harris.
I will be there. It's going to be good.
It's going to be a little Zoom hang. We'll put the link in the show notes today.

Speaker 12 Speaking of show notes links, I got stopped in the street yesterday by a guy that's like, where is the playlist, the music playlist for Apple Music? Our boy Jake's been doing that.

Speaker 12 Super listener Jake has been doing that. So we'll put the Apple Music and Spotify link in the show notes today.
Lastly, today's show, your man and mine, Mark Leibovich.

Speaker 12 I'm trying something a little bit new this week where we have a little bonus guest at the end. We have a full show.
We're not shortchanging you.

Speaker 12 We're not doing one of these double shows where we shortchange you. We have a full show with an A-list guest like Mark Liebovich.

Speaker 12 And I'm so excited about tomorrow's guest, but there's just so much shit going on. And there are also other people that I want to get on the show.

Speaker 12 So today we also have my good friend Juliana Glover talking about her New York Times op-ed over the weekend that I think was very revealing about some games that the Trump campaign is doing with their campaign finance work.

Speaker 12 She also has some insights on what the hell is happening with these these former cabinet officials. How can we get them in the boat for Kamala Hara? So stick around for Juliana at the end.

Speaker 12 We're going to do another double tomorrow. Hope you guys enjoy it.
Put the feedback in the comments. Up next, Mark Liebovich of The Atlantic.

Speaker 12 Hello, and welcome to the Borg Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
He's the staff writer at The Atlantic.

Speaker 12 He's the author of five books, including This Town and the most recent, Thank You for Your Servitude. It's Liba Vitch.
What's happening, Liba? Tim, great to be here.

Speaker 12 Am I officially a friend of the show now? I mean, I feel like a friend of the show. I've been on a few times, but you know, I would like to be.
You aren't quite at the Tom Nichols status.

Speaker 12 Eventually, once you've been on a certain number of times, you get a special gift in the mail from me. Okay.
But you haven't reached that yet, but certainly in our hearts, you're a friend of the pop.

Speaker 12 Okay. Yeah, you kept it vague, but I appreciate that.
So it'll just get me something free-floatingly to work for. I'm so happy to see you.

Speaker 12 I just, you have a great piece about 21 minutes in the Buddha J bubble, which had me chuckling from the DNC.

Speaker 12 But before we get to, speaking of a friend of the pod, Mayor Pete, I mean, like, this podcast is like the home base of the Pete Stan Club.

Speaker 12 I mean, you can't get more on the nose, I don't think, than the bulwark audience for Pete. I want your biggest picture impressions.
You did both conventions.

Speaker 12 You're a man that is observant. I just kind of want to let you flow.

Speaker 12 I want to put a quarter in and just see what you thought, what your impressions were of the DNC and how it compared to what happened up in Milwaukee.

Speaker 12 Yeah, I mean, both conventions were fascinating in their own ways.

Speaker 12 I mean, the first part about it, just sort of looking at them together, was that they were separated by, well, like three, four weeks, but ultimately massive history in the middle of it, which was the Biden dropping out thing.

Speaker 12 That little thing?

Speaker 12 That little thing. I mean, but if you look at both conventions, which occurred on both sides of that, I mean, they were both incredibly hyper-confident affairs.

Speaker 12 I mean, I remember kind of not dreading, but going into the RNC, I was thinking, you know, there could be some menace here, especially because the assassination attempt happened a few days ago.

Speaker 12 But it turned out to be just the opposite. I mean, there was a mix of overconfidence, but also touched by godness because, you know, Trump had just survived, you know, an assassination attempt.

Speaker 12 And I guess the only point of argument there was, is he Donald J. Trump or Donald John Trump? Or did he survive the assassination because he has superhuman powers or because he was touched by God?

Speaker 12 I mean, real controversy. Is he more of a Moses figure or a Peter or a Jesus on the cross? All of those things.
But I mean, look, it was dear leader on steroids, like nothing we've seen before.

Speaker 12 And then, of course, two, three days later. Can we just pause on that for one second, though? Because your menace point has been something I've been wanting to bring up.

Speaker 12 For anybody that's read Thank You for Servitude or Why We Did It, not a lot of huge compliments from the two of us here for the MAGA culture. All right.
No.

Speaker 12 And so when something happens that surprises me in a positive way, I do think it's, it bears mentioning.

Speaker 12 I re-listened on just like super fast chipmunk speed to the two podcasts that we did right after the assassination attempt.

Speaker 12 And I was extremely worried at the time, like almost there was a somberness to them out of expectation.

Speaker 12 I thought that there was going to be extremely violent period that followed it at minimum of rhetoric, you know, and who the hell knows what that would have led to. And that just didn't happen.
Yes.

Speaker 12 There needs needs to be like a very modest

Speaker 12 cap knot.

Speaker 12 I guess it's like, do you really got to hand it to them for not trying to advance a violent backlash?

Speaker 12 But like, you kind of do got to hand it to them for not trying to push a violent backlash, I guess. Yeah, I mean, people were just freaked out.
I mean, it was that soon after.

Speaker 12 So I think, you know, it's a combination of the freaked out factor, maybe some genuine humanity there. And also, again, just overconfidence, which at that moment seemed very well-founded.

Speaker 12 So that convention was framed by the assassination attempt and then Biden getting out a couple of days later, which kind of it changed everything about the race dynamic-wise, but it also, it was a big mood swing, I mean, from day to day to day.

Speaker 12 And then the Democratic convention, you had a somewhat similar, not mood swing, because it was all, I mean, it's been a pretty momentum-filled few weeks for Democrats since Biden got off the stage.

Speaker 12 I thought it was a little messy or felt like it could be a little messy on Monday night between

Speaker 12 the really, you know, the sort of unforced error delays in getting the main speaker, who in that case was Biden on like well after 11, it turned out.

Speaker 12 But also, I mean, the Biden thing is and remains kind of messy.

Speaker 12 And I think that was the night where they kind of had to deal with it and kind of deal with the awkwardness and listen to Biden and then send him off, which itself was weird.

Speaker 12 And then beginning Tuesday night, they could do the work that they were there to do, which is to show the unity, show the star power, get behind Kamala.

Speaker 12 And also, I mean, obviously, there were some great performances, and the Obamas and Tim Walls and a number of other people were really good.

Speaker 12 I mean, you've done, you know, probably like 37 conventions or something.

Speaker 12 94, actually. 94.
My first was the Kefauf. No, I don't know.

Speaker 12 Rather than maybe comparing it to the weird Trumpian, you know, dear leader kind of vibe, like, how did it compare

Speaker 12 eight, 12, you know, Democratic type conventions for you? Yeah. I mean, you sort of remember those conventions by moments.

Speaker 12 I mean, like 12, you remember, I guess, Romney talking to the chair and then Clint talked to the chair. Clint talked.
Yeah, the Clintys were talking to the chair.

Speaker 12 I mean, 2008 was like all Obama, but also Palin. I mean, that was quite a moment and quite a frenzy, which took place in St.
Paul.

Speaker 12 2004, I mean, it was the John, in Democrats, it was the John Kerry convention, but really, retroactively, we sort of remember it as

Speaker 12 the Obama, right? And then

Speaker 12 Zell Miller on the Republican side, right. That's the

Speaker 12 I think Arnold Schwarzenegger came out. I mean, there was a lot of very different time.
2016, geez, I mean, Ted Cruz's speech.

Speaker 12 And then, I mean, there was still, there was some pretty serious Democratic disarray then because the Bernie thing and the Hillary thing, I mean, that was pretty hot at that point.

Speaker 12 And then there were no conventions in 2020. So, yeah, what was interesting about these two conventions is that it's been a while, right?

Speaker 12 There's a lot of pent-up energy for convention madness and convention dynamics. And it's unclear what we'll remember about these two conventions.
But I have a pretty good idea.

Speaker 12 I think the eargauz imagery of the Republican convention, of the Trump convention, kind of lingers. You just kind of think of it with both Trump himself, but also the kind of coastblaying eargaws.

Speaker 12 That's creepy. Yeah, that a lot of the delegates were putting on, which is kind of weird.
And then for this one, I don't know, just I like the speeches, the star power, the energy. Michelle.

Speaker 12 That's Michelle. Yeah, Michelle.

Speaker 12 he's going out to one of them black jobs that was really that was quite a moment yeah i'd be curious to know what you thought i thought the combo speech at least in the hall i mean everyone was like oh it's a home run it's a home run i felt like it was a double maybe in the hall i i think that when you were in the hall she kind of paled a little bit next to the obama the walls experience and a couple of others maybe look i think that when you saw it analyzed through clips, through the sort of the totality of what she did.

Speaker 12 Like there were, she had some real great moments. I mean, he's an unserious man, but his danger was very serious.
That was, I thought, you know, I thought really, really good.

Speaker 12 And it's pretty good that the

Speaker 12 analysis landed on that. So, yeah, I think it was a successful convention.
Here's why it was a double in the room and a home run is because the people it was a home run for were us. We were me.

Speaker 12 It was my people that she was trying to hit a home run for. Like she was trying to demonstrate to the

Speaker 12 people that put Biden over the top that didn't vote for Hillary Hillary, that like they could trust her, right? That she was up for the job, was presidential, shared their values.

Speaker 12 And so it's like all those lines, you know, about America being the greatest country in the world. Yeah, the Democrats are cool with that.

Speaker 12 Like, that's good, you know, but that's not getting the standing ovation the same way that Michelle making the black jobs joke is. But she was trying to get.

Speaker 12 Bill Crystal to make the standing ovation and sitting there. Soman McClain be like, okay, all right, now we're in business, right? Like her audience was broader than the room.

Speaker 12 And that's why I think she hit it. Yeah, I agree.
And I think it's smart, too. I mean, I think, you know, maybe there could be some blowback from the left, but I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 12 I mean, I think Biden kind of, that, I think, was the most successful thing that Biden did in 2020. I mean, he ran a kind of center-left campaign rather than a far-left campaign.

Speaker 12 The only blow like I've seen from the left, well, I guess that they didn't let a Palestinian advocate speak, which was, I do think, was kind of an unforced error.

Speaker 12 Like, they could have put him anywhere. And that's one of the things like, why not just check the box and move on, put him at 615? You know, the only thing about her speech was the word lethal.

Speaker 12 And that is, that's kind of one of those good gaffes.

Speaker 12 Like, if you're a progressive with a big social media following listening, maybe pretend to be mad about that because, like, that's the kind of thing that butches her up for the middle a little bit.

Speaker 12 People are like, oh man, those peace nicks are so upset that you used the word lethal. Like, but that was like really the only thing that I saw that people had any issue with.
Yeah, I do.

Speaker 12 And it doesn't seem like an actionable gaff if it wasn't even a gap, right? I mean, it's not like I'm not going to vote for her because of this word. All right.
So you follow Pete around.

Speaker 12 Did you get any sense that there's,

Speaker 12 you know, wishing could have been him? Yeah, let me sort of bring you into like the journalism sausage factory here.

Speaker 12 The wishing here was that I needed to write a story, and Pete was in obviously great demand. Liz Smith and his team were nice enough to let me in for a very brief period of time.

Speaker 12 I mean, I've got a 14-minute interview, 21 minutes sort of walking from point A to point B.

Speaker 12 So it's just sort of the desperation there was just watching the Pete Buttigieg phenomena up close for as much time as I could get and then just writing it up as quickly as possible.

Speaker 12 So that's what I did. I mean, look, Pete Buttigieg is a star.
I mean, he, he, I mean, there are a lot of stars walking around the Democratic Convention.

Speaker 12 I mean, there were a lot of kind of bubble entourage sensations. You'd see these scrums walking around the concourse or on the floor or out on the street.
Who else? Like, who? You know, AOC,

Speaker 12 certainly, I mean, anyone, Obama, adjacent, I mean, certainly Tim Miller, right? I mean, it's actually, it's funny.

Speaker 12 I mean, a lot of the podcasters who have sort of emerged around the Trump era are huge, as you can attest. But I think who else?

Speaker 12 Wes Moore, anyone who's Tim Walls adjacent, any high-level staff, like in the sort of pluffcutter category at this point, you know, Jen O'Malley, there was a lot of that.

Speaker 12 There's a Jen O'Malley hive there.

Speaker 12 I didn't actually see it, but I could imagine if Jen walked around for a few minutes, and if people recognize her, and you know, you're in a crowd that people will recognize the Jen malley dylan's of the world you would have seen some fuss a lot of the governors i mean gavin newsom i saw had a fuss around him chris coons had a fuss around him you saw people earnestly probably asking him about biden things like that so yeah it was very specialized i mean this is a heavy user market um of political junkies obviously so you're following pete around one of the interesting things about your story that's just like

Speaker 12 one of these i'm getting old time flies sort of things like life is so strange was so this was like his first not really his first convention as a star, even, but like his first convention, right?

Speaker 12 It kind of feels like he's been our live for so long at this point. But in 16, he was live blogging for Slate, which I did not realize.
That was a fact about him I did not know.

Speaker 12 And the funniest thing to me is, like, to think about it, in 16, both Pete, the top surrogate for Kamla and the cabinet secretary, and J.D.

Speaker 12 Vance, a sitting senator who is the VP nominee, were both bloggers during Trump's first campaign. Like,

Speaker 12 we've gone in eight years from bloggers to like the biggest stars at the respective conventions. So there's hope for you out there, bloggers.
It's true.

Speaker 12 Actually, I mean, I think Pete blogged the Indiana primary for Slate, and I think he might have eventually gotten to the convention as a delegate.

Speaker 12 I know he rated an invite to the Obama 2012 convention, but he did not rate an invite to the, obviously, the 2008. And he also worked on the Kerry campaign in 2004.

Speaker 12 Certainly didn't rate an invite to that. So what's funny about Pete is he's such a fanboy.
And, you know, he kind of lived the fanboy experience.

Speaker 12 And I remember interviewing him in 2020, and we talked about it the other day. He was at Harvard, I guess, in 2000.
And there was a debate between Bush and Gore at the Kennedy Library in Boston.

Speaker 12 And he volunteered to like be a driver for some other volunteers on the Gore campaign, like people they wanted to plant in the crowd.

Speaker 12 And he was talking about how starstruck he was getting to meet like Donna Praziel and getting to meet like you know Bob Shrum and people like that because I mean the guy and I mean like like a lot of young kind of Kennedy school or IOP types he was just thrilled to be in the presence of this and he was like a total you know total fanboy so he's on the other side of that that is so cute so The one thing that struck me about how much more public he's been since Kamala, I'm not reporting anything.

Speaker 12 I don't know anything, but I just, this is just, I'm the, you know, keen observer like you are of the swamp condition i was with pete maybe six months ago and like we're off the record and i was just like why aren't you like like i want more of you like you're doing a lot but i want like i want 10x of what you're doing and like i didn't i didn't get a good answer and i think that there was like a worry about overshadowing biden during this period like you could imagine that that would exist for kamala and like it doesn't like it feels like they want everybody out there but i don't know you tell me i think they do i mean i do think that yeah there were great sensitivities around biden because let's face him it wasn't that hard to overshadow him whether you were a really gifted political athlete like you know pete buttige or gavin newsom or whoever or or someone less talented right so it does seem like there's not a lot of insecurity about talent outshining Kamala, not because she can't be outshined, but because I think people are genuinely unified behind her

Speaker 12 and excited. And I had no sense whatsoever from anyone I talked to that, oh, Pete secretly wants her to lose, or, you know, Wall secretly wants her to lose, or Wes Moore secretly wants her to lose.

Speaker 12 What about Gavin, though? What about Gavin? You know, it's funny. Gavin is, Gavin's one guy I was really looking forward to running into and maybe catching up with a little bit.

Speaker 12 I mean, obviously, he's in big demand. Only saw him from a distance.
I mean, I spent time with him back in April, March, or something like that, for a pretty big story I did.

Speaker 12 He was in a different place. The race was in a different place.

Speaker 12 Would have loved to have kind of gotten a little window into his thinking, especially given his history with Kamala, given his history with Biden, given his fairly,

Speaker 12 I wouldn't say obvious, but certainly frontal desire to run and certainly consideration about running and so forth. So I'd be curious to know what his thinking is.
He's welcome on the pod.

Speaker 12 I don't know. I was watching him on the pod with the pod, bros, and I don't know.
You know, I'm just joking.

Speaker 12 Obviously, Gavin Newsom wants Kamal Arras to win and is going to be out there working for and all that, but there is a sense of regrets. I have a few, maybe, I think,

Speaker 12 underneath the skin. It wouldn't surprise me.
Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. I mean, look, the guy, obviously, I assume if Biden had gotten out from the outset, he probably would have run.

Speaker 12 He also, I mean, his history with Comlos, they go back like San Francisco in the early aughts at least. I mean, I think when he was with Kimberly, and I don't think she was with Doug yet.

Speaker 12 But anyway, they would socialize. I mean, San Francisco, Bay Area is a small town, especially politically.

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 1 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 9 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 3 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 2 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 8 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 7 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 5 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

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Speaker 12 We do have some Trump stuff to get to, but I have to do the Biden thing with you for a minute because

Speaker 12 you were out ahead of the pack, as is, you know,

Speaker 12 kind of your habit talking about what people are whispering about. I forget when was this? Early, was it like January 20? I was at at Disneyland, I think, when you were doing this.

Speaker 12 Yeah, well, the first story I wrote on him being too old and shouldn't run was 2022. I mean, that was, yeah, they didn't like me at all.

Speaker 12 And I wrote the same, I wrote similar stories about how someone needed to primary him and so forth a number of times.

Speaker 12 But part of the story that I want to focus on, part of those stories was what came to be in a lot of the later stories, which was that like

Speaker 12 the public talking points did not match what people were saying at the various cocktail parties that you reluctantly attend. I'm above it all, Tim.

Speaker 12 We must stay. Yeah, because you're very above it all.
Yeah, you are very above it all. That is not your scene, but you just have to go there.
I'm anthropologist. I have great removal.

Speaker 12 It's quite a game I play.

Speaker 12 I got to ask it. Was that happening at the DNC at all still about the current situation? I mean, he's keeping a pretty light schedule.
He was in California for a week. He's in Rehoboth all week.

Speaker 12 We're not seeing a lot of him. There can be a lot of reasons for that.

Speaker 12 I'm not trying to do conspiracy mongering, but like, is there any buzz that's that like people are concerned about August 27th through January 20th? Possibly, maybe. I would say this.

Speaker 12 I mean, I think it's possibly a little more sad, which is that I think he's quite upset. I think he is still really wounded by this whole, you know, the whole state of affairs this summer.

Speaker 12 I think he remains old. I think this summer has probably aged him and exhausted him even further.
But I also think, and this part of it, it's not like he's an asset out there.

Speaker 12 I mean, maybe he will be seen as an asset at some point strategically in Pennsylvania, parts of Michigan, things like that. But he, at this moment, seems like a man without a purpose within

Speaker 12 what currently has been reconstituted as a very energized party. And that's kind of an ongoing awkwardness.

Speaker 12 I mean, this is one thing I would say, Tim, and you probably heard something similar on Thursday night when everyone was still, well, you know, it was last night of the convention, people were pretty high about the whole week and Kambala's speech and all the speeches.

Speaker 12 I had about three or four different conversations with people saying the exact same thing.

Speaker 12 And they would say, you know, can you imagine how we would feel if we had spent all the energy and all the time this week trying to push Biden over the finish line through Thursday night?

Speaker 12 And, you know, we'd have to worry about, you know, can he stay up this late every night? I mean, it's, these are very real considerations that I think.

Speaker 12 I might have had the same conversation when I was like, I think Sarah Longwell would have had to put me on administrative leave at

Speaker 12 the end of the week after getting it out because it just would have been done. Absolutely.
He could do stuff, though. He could go on foreign trips.
He could. I don't know.

Speaker 12 He could do a part in review. The president can still do other things.

Speaker 12 There's still presidenting things that he could be doing. Presidenting? He has a real job, unlike Kamala.
Right. I mean, hate to say it.

Speaker 12 I mean, it's like, okay, the vice president can work from home for the next three or four months or like Pennsylvania or something like that. So home being Pennsylvania.

Speaker 12 But yeah, it doesn't seem like he's doing that. Just because it's you.
I wouldn't do that if it wasn't for this town audience.

Speaker 12 This is a little more indulgent than we like to get on the pod, but I do have one other piece of gossip.

Speaker 12 A prominent media person received a text following Pete's speech, speaking to your 21 minutes in the Pete bubble, from a high-ranking Biden official, upset that Pete didn't mention him.

Speaker 12 Okay.

Speaker 12 It doesn't surprise me. And it's also a window into that dynamic, which was not that far from the surface.
I mean, so Cambala, and I guess Walls, right? That went up to Wisconsin on Tuesday night.

Speaker 12 They had that great rally at the Pfiserf Center, which looked like a brilliant move.

Speaker 12 You know, you go into Trump's convention space, you blow it out, and then you simultaneously have the Obamas blowing out at the convention. But supposedly, I forgot where I read this.

Speaker 12 There was some concern about Biden being upset seeing the Harris walls. I think that was bullshit.
You think that was real? Hey, I read it somewhere. It might have been on Twitter.
No, I don't know.

Speaker 12 You're the one that should know. That's why you're on the podcast, Mark Leonovich.
You're supposed to know who's mad at what you're doing.

Speaker 12 That's why

Speaker 12 it's true. It's 100% true.
No, look, but Biden's up in his feelings. There's no question about it.
I mean, you don't have to be a great, you don't have to be Sigmund Freud, you know, or whatever.

Speaker 12 Sigmund Freud is such a dated reference. I disavow Sigmund Freud.
Dr. Drew?

Speaker 12 No, someone. No, look, I mean, there's Pelosi stuff.
There's Obama stuff. There might be Kamala stuff.

Speaker 12 I mean, there are people in the White House or close to the White House noticing slights or perceived slights about Pete Buttigieg not mentioning Joe Biden enough or at all in his speech.

Speaker 12 I mean, to me, that takes up a lot of energy, and he remains a sensitive sort of part of all this that's obviously not going away at least till January. All right.

Speaker 12 Well, I guess I would rather it be a little bit sad than it be concerning if those are the options. Sure.

Speaker 12 I want to talk about this debate over Kamala interviews and then get into your colleague Elena Plott's latest on the people doing servitude for Trump.

Speaker 12 Playbook this morning has this whole fucking thing about, oh, which network is going to get the first Kamala interview and who's going to do it and

Speaker 12 when are they going to do it? And are they going to meet their goal by the end of the month? It's like, who fucking cares about this?

Speaker 12 Like, why don't they just rip off the band-aid and get this over with? Like, what is happening? Yeah. And by the way, you don't even have to, I mean, you can do it with like a friendlier interviewer.

Speaker 12 Yeah. You know, I would happily talk to her.
Not that I'm friendly or safe or reliable or anything like you guys. No, no, I mean, it's no, no, kidding.
I don't know.

Speaker 12 Just like it doesn't, yeah, take the energy out of this. But I also think, look, I'm all for interviews.
I think transparency is good. I think interviews are good.

Speaker 12 I think the public officials should talk to the press.

Speaker 12 But I also just don't think in the real world, there are a lot of Sarah Longwell focus group members who are saying, I will not vote for this woman until she sits down with, you know, David Muir.

Speaker 12 And if she does David Muir and not Gail King, I will be upset. I mean, like, come on.
The whole thing is crazy.

Speaker 12 It makes me feel the most of remove from DC reading this playbook thing. It was like, and so-and-so is calling Tony West and Maya about how they should get the first interview.

Speaker 12 And so-and-so is calling Brian Fowl. And she's like, who cares who gets the first interview? Just do an interview.
Do a couple. Do some friendly ones.
Do interviews.

Speaker 12 Like, don't do interviews with these people, by the way. Do interviews with black media, with Charlemagne, with D.L.
Hughley. Do media with like weird TikTok people I've never heard of, right?

Speaker 12 Like, do just do whatever. Do whatever.
Do whatever. The whole thing is crazy.
So I want to talk about the Trump people. The Mar-a-Lago mood music these days

Speaker 12 feels pretty rough, huh? Like, but it's almost like it's out of balance with the actual race. Like, the race is still close.
It's extremely close.

Speaker 12 It's extremely close. So, how do you assess that? I guess the Trump campaign, one thing we're learning is that there's never much of a campaign.

Speaker 12 I mean, yes, you can say that they really know what they're doing this time, but then you see some adversity and you realize that basically it's all a reflection of the candidate.

Speaker 12 And, you know, are we waiting for the Corey Lewandowski era to emerge more fully? You know, and I mean, I don't know. That's kind of all 2016, right? I mean, the race remains really, really close.

Speaker 12 And you would think that the fundamentals, like traditionally, are very much on the side of the responsibly, strategically run Democratic race, race, the more disciplined nominee, and so forth.

Speaker 12 But here we are. So the mood music seems really bad.
I mean,

Speaker 12 I'm just struck by how unprepared they were by all of this. I mean, the idea that there was this 80%

Speaker 12 chance pretty much at their convention that I think Kamala Harris or at least Biden was going to step down, and yet they seem completely flat-footed by that is, to me, malpractice.

Speaker 12 But at the same time, I mean,

Speaker 12 Donald Trump is like walking political malpractice.

Speaker 12 And he has, of course, shown people again and again that that can win, or at least that can retain a complete stranglehold on one of our two political parties. So I don't know.

Speaker 12 I mean, it doesn't surprise me, but it's certainly a different ver or a new version of a movie we've seen many, many times before.

Speaker 12 He's on his fourth nickname far, and it's Comrade, which doesn't really land for me.

Speaker 12 Even Kami Kamala would have been better, I think, than Comrade.

Speaker 12 That's not great, I don't think, either, but it's just.

Speaker 12 who's that for? I don't know. I mean, I mean, you'd think it'd be like some old, like, kind of John Bircher kind of like Bregan Nixon.
Does he not already have those people?

Speaker 12 Not really. I mean, you would think not, right? They're either dead or

Speaker 12 probably, I don't know.

Speaker 12 They were still alive, though. Anybody who's like, gets a good chuckle out of Comrade Kamala, I don't think was a

Speaker 12 gettable voter.

Speaker 12 You're probably right, Tim. I think that that's totally.
That's 100% right. Did you see Sam Stein wrote about this morning for the bulwark that they're running ads now in Palm Beach? The campaign is.

Speaker 12 Oh, my God.

Speaker 12 That was a great piece. Yeah.
We've heard this before, but it's really stunning, but of course, not stunning if you've been following this guy and the pathology around this guy for eight years now.

Speaker 12 It just keeps getting to be a kind of thicker reduction. What's that cooking thing? Is it a reduction? I never.
It's a reduction. Yeah.
Yeah, it's a reduction.

Speaker 12 It's like a thick thing where the essence of it is to

Speaker 12 cherry reduction. Yeah.
mark on cooking. Not something you're going to hear very much.

Speaker 12 So, this is actually a lead-in to the Cash Patel story by my colleague Elena Blott, but also, yeah, the idea that they would actually put any money, time, resources into running ads just so their client in Palm Beach can watch it is insane, pathetic, and completely on-brand.

Speaker 12 The man who will do anything for Trump is the headline. Why Cash Patel is exactly the kind of person who would serve in the second Trump administration.

Speaker 12 There's one part of the story about a military action in Africa I want to really dig in on, but I'm just at the biggest picture, since this is sort of representative of your ooh, you know, having hung out at the Trump Hotel and like knowing these people.

Speaker 12 Give people a little bit of color about cash and like the types and how maybe the mix of people might be different in 2025 if you were to return versus what it looked like in 2019.

Speaker 12 So we're talking about this because, so Elena Plott, my colleague, a friend of good journalism, wrote this quote. So she's a friend of the show.
She is a friend of the show. I mean, I'm sure.

Speaker 12 I don't want to presume anything. She was on.
We had a great episode. You told me at the beginning of this podcast that you were not sure I rose to the level of.
So, you know, I know.

Speaker 12 No, just add to the town Nichols level. We're ranking the Atlantic people.
You know, it's Nichols and From are on one category. Okay.
You and Elena are kind of in category two.

Speaker 12 You haven't quite got like the gold watch yet. That's all I'm saying.
The green job. Yeah, again, something to work for.

Speaker 12 It was on the Elena episode, by the way, that I first revealed that I was Coconut Curious. So I think that could end up being a historic document because

Speaker 12 we were discussing her piece on Kabbalah. And I was like, I think that Kabbalah's been treated unfairly.
And I think I'm Coconut Curious. It was early July.

Speaker 12 And that really, I think, has aged well for the six weeks that it's been.

Speaker 12 Young history students, 40, 50 years from now, maybe 100 years now, will look back on the Coconut Curious podcast. So Elena wrote this great piece on Cash Patel.

Speaker 12 It's a profile of Cash Patel, who is this complete Trumpy flunky, but also way over the top.

Speaker 12 I mean, someone who, as the headline indicates, will do anything to please Donald Trump, which, of course, if you are in the Trump orbit, if you please Donald Trump, you will juice your own standing, your own ambitions inside that world.

Speaker 12 And so in a rational world where such an administration did not exist or come to power, this would be a pure laughingstock.

Speaker 12 But because of the world we live in, or could live in if the election goes a certain way in November, Cash Patel could have a very big job.

Speaker 12 And I think one of the things about Elena's story that was just essential to realize is that this is maybe an over-the-top version of someone who could do this, but very much not a one-off.

Speaker 12 I mean, this is an administration that would be populated top to bottom, you know, in Donald Trump's ideal vision, with people like this.

Speaker 12 You know, the only potential check on this is what the senate would abide and and i think there's a really good chance it could be a republican senate the question is could they get into senate confirmed positions but yeah just very scary um display but also really well told story about the kind of person who could really thrive in the next if there is a next donald trump administration Yeah, and with Mitt gone, you really are looking at Susan Lisa.

Speaker 12 You know what I mean? Like, if you get to 53, it's like, who's going to stop?

Speaker 12 We're going to be waiting for John Cornyn Cornyn to show a spine?

Speaker 12 Like the type of person that would have to stop a confirmation, depending on how the Senate shakes out.

Speaker 12 Anyway, here's the one story that I think is worth really highlighting. It happened October 30th, 2020.
SEAL Team 6 was awaiting the green light on a rescue mission in West Africa.

Speaker 12 The administration had recently learned where gunmen were holding an American who had been kidnapped.

Speaker 12 Multiple agencies were coordinating on the final details for the evening operation, but it was the State Department's job to resolve securing airspace permission from Nigerian officials.

Speaker 12 Wanted to make sure the people in Nigeria knew that SEAL Team 6 was coming in so they didn't shoot him down. Around noon, Cash Patel called the Pentagon with an update.
Pompeo had gotten the approval.

Speaker 12 The mission was a go. The SEALs were close to landing in Nigeria when DOD discovered that the state had not, in fact, secured the clearance.
Patel had just made it up. Yeah.

Speaker 12 Story goes on from there. People should read the whole thing in the Atlantic and subscribe.

Speaker 12 But like, just think about the fact that this guy is in this position at all and to be like the liaison between the Secretary of State and the Defense Department is insane.

Speaker 12 And then when you kind of expand that out to be like, in the next Trump administration, it's going to be mostly cashes.

Speaker 12 Like, the one-offs will be the people that are like, hey, actually, maybe we should do this the correct way. Yeah.
That is sociopathic stuff.

Speaker 12 Like, that isn't, like, it's one thing to be like, oh, this is just a dumbass. And he's encouraging Trump to send out a mean tweet.

Speaker 12 Like, that's bad but this is like we're lying to the defense secretary about what the secretary of state said and putting our people at risk that's madness yeah it's such a chilling account in in this story i mean i think first of all i mean thank god they got these people out.

Speaker 12 It was a successful mission, ultimately. It did not cost any lives, but it easily could have.

Speaker 12 And the piece sort of talks about, you know, just the kind of the ire that was raised, I think rightly, among the people who sort of learned what had happened after the story, thank God, ended well.

Speaker 12 But yeah, this was a window just into the pure nihilism of one desperate man, which I think, as I was reading it, it kind of mimicked Trump on January 6th, just sort of watching TV impassively, doing nothing, feeling gratitude, it seems,

Speaker 12 for the insurrectionist. And this is the same thing.
I mean, no sense whatsoever of life and death and personal safety and

Speaker 12 law enforcement or diplomacy or any of the things that you would hope that a high-level offician, much less the president, would keep front and center in their mind.

Speaker 12 Again, just the desperation of wanting to do something to please. this similarly erratic person at the top of the chart is really chilling because that could be the next norm, right?

Speaker 12 I mean, it's an extraordinary story to read read in retrospect during an incredibly tenuous time.

Speaker 12 But again, going forward, this could be maybe, you know, some preview of the next level of pathology we see in an administration like this.

Speaker 12 And here's the other thing that's just worth sitting on for a second. Of the players in that conversation, you know, you had Pompeo, who's the Secretary of State.

Speaker 12 Not a fan of Mike Pompeo in this podcast. Okay.
You had Esper, who's the Secretary of Defense of the Time. I'm so-so to plus on Esper.
We'll see.

Speaker 12 He was on CNN yesterday, yesterday implying he might vote for Kamla. So Esper, we like.
He's coconut curious. Yeah, he's coconut curious.
That's Mark Esper. Coconut curious.

Speaker 12 We've got to get him over the line. Pompeo,

Speaker 12 we don't like. Cash.
These are the three key players, right, in negotiating this.

Speaker 12 Cash is the one that almost gets our people killed by randomly lying about whether the Nigerians have secured airspace. That's October 30th, 2020.

Speaker 12 A month later, when Donald Trump is trying to execute a coup, Pompeo is out, kind of half supporting it, just like tacitly, but not really involved. Esper is literally out, kicked out.

Speaker 12 Patel is trying to take over the government and be like the lead man for the, you know, whatever, the coup, like whatever you want to call the rogue Trump administration during the transition.

Speaker 12 And now, fast forward four years later, Pompeo wouldn't be in the next administration. Esper wouldn't be in the next administration.
Patel would. Oh, yeah.
Right.

Speaker 12 Like, that is like the craziest part about this. Like, you hear the story where it's like one person is obviously the most incompetent for put ideology aside.

Speaker 12 One person is like, should be nowhere near the levers of power. And Trump looks at that situation as like, oh, yeah, I want the lying crazy person.
That's the guy that we're keeping around.

Speaker 12 You other two that were just worried about like responsibly doing this ex-fill.

Speaker 12 I'm not really that interested in you anymore. Yeah.
By the way, how sure are you that Pompeo wouldn't serve in the next Trump administration? I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 12 Has he really done anything to, I mean, he's sort of been laying low from what I can tell. That's fair.
I guess he's out of the circle of trust, though. Probably.
I guess.

Speaker 12 I mean, you can get back into the circle of trust with Donald Trump just by putting on a red hat. Yes.

Speaker 12 Like, if right now I took off my nuggets hat and replaced it with a MAGA hat and was like, Mark Liebovich, here's the big reveal. I'm going full Donald Trump.
I've been wrong. I love Donald Trump.

Speaker 12 I would be on the shortlist for press secretary if I did that, right? Like, he doesn't care about the past, obviously. Like, as long as you pay homage to him, you're in.

Speaker 12 So, sure, Pompeo could be back. But, like, right now,

Speaker 12 the only person in the circle of trust is the one that totally fucked up that situation in the most astonishing way imaginable. And the two people acting responsible are out of the circle of trust.

Speaker 12 Yeah, I'm sure Trump would appoint a blue ribbon commission to really get to the bottom of how that went south in 20,

Speaker 12 you know, at the end of 2020. No, I mean, yeah, true.
I mean, it's up and down. I mean, that's what a that's what a Trump victory would look like, you know, just full stop.

Speaker 12 And, you know, again, you can't put any trust in a Republican Senate or Republican anything, you know, presuming that, you know, they're not, you know, I would say, you know, Mitt Romney, you know, Adam Kinzinger level at this point, and, you know, maybe Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski in the Senate.

Speaker 12 So, woof, dark times. Anything else, Mark? Any other gossip for us? Any other news, insights, deep thoughts,

Speaker 12 innuendo, insults? I take insults.

Speaker 12 I was rooting for Serbia. I was rooting for Serbia in the Olympics.
Were you because of Kazano? I was apologetic. I was rooting for Serbia.
I love America. I love this country.

Speaker 12 I believe in American exceptionalism.

Speaker 12 I was rah-rahing all of Kamala's most jingoistic lines at the convention. That said, Kevin Durant's Twitter feed got under my skin.

Speaker 12 I love Nikola Jokic. And for one time only,

Speaker 12 I was rooting for Serbia. So maybe, maybe that's a room for an insult.
I was just throwing that out there.

Speaker 12 I think it's a room for an insult, but I come at it for different selfish reasons, which I thought that Jason Tatum was

Speaker 12 disrespected by Steve Kerr.

Speaker 12 In fact, at the convention, when Steve Kerr was speaking, I tried unsuccessfully in the press area to get a Jason Tatum, kind of mocking Jason Tatum chant going, and I failed miserably, but I'm proud that I tried, right?

Speaker 12 Okay. Have you had a chance to confront Steve Kerr in the hallway? Did you have a chance? I have not, but I was hoping for it because I would have gotten right in his face on the Jason Tatum thing.

Speaker 12 I mean, I think, you know, politically, you know, he gave a good speech.

Speaker 12 I thought it was effective. You know, it was perfect, you know, coming back to the United Center, Bulls, blah, blah, blah.
But in Steph Curry, I mean, there was a lot going on there.

Speaker 12 But no, I can't get beyond Jason Tati. I mean, at root, I love America as much as anyone does, Tim, including you.
But, you know, ultimately, I'm a parochial masshole and we are the worst.

Speaker 12 Look, I love America. Look, let's agree that the things that bring us together, Tim, are stronger than the things that divide us.
How's that? I will agree with that.

Speaker 12 Mark Liebovich, thank you for coming back on the Borg podcast. You're only five to seven guest slots away from getting the secret super guest prize.
So by 2027, it's going to be happening.

Speaker 12 We'll be talking to you soon. Up next, our mutual friend, Juliana Glover.
Thank you, Tim.

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Speaker 12 Hey everybody, we are back with my old friend Juliana Glover.

Speaker 12 She's the chief executive of Ridgely Walsh, a corporate consultancy, and she's a a former advisor to a bunch of Republican officials, John Ashcroft, George W.

Speaker 12 Bush, Dick Cheney, you might have heard of them, John McCain.

Speaker 12 And she's been one of the good ones, stalwart throughout the troubles of the last decade, and I'm excited to have her on the podcast. How are you doing, Juliana?

Speaker 14 I'm well, Tim. It's good to be on here with you.
Thank you.

Speaker 12 Thank you for doing this. I wish we could hang out in person.
I do miss the cocktails in your

Speaker 12 little living room there, though not that much. Not that much.
You know, one of the problems is you do have to talk talk to the DC people that are there. So I'm missing you there.

Speaker 12 I want to talk about an op-ed that you wrote yesterday.

Speaker 12 And also, because of your kind of experience in dealing and navigating with principles and kind of how they think, I also want to talk about the article that I wrote over the weekend about kind of the missing endorsements for Kamla from some of these ex-cabinet officials who I think know better.

Speaker 12 But first to your New York Times article, it was titled Republican Donors, Do You Know Where Your Money Goes?

Speaker 12 And you covered like this really underappreciated thing that has been happening in our campaign finance where you should be able to see where every dollar is spent because you have to file that as part of campaign finance laws.

Speaker 12 But what these campaigns have done, the Trump campaign the most egregiously, is create these like S-Corps that are catch-alls that do a lot of the payments.

Speaker 12 And they just pay the money to this one group. And so you don't know where they're dishing out the money to.
So talk a little bit about that process and what you speculate might be happening here.

Speaker 14 Sure. So it's not actually S-Corps.
It's LLCs largely.

Speaker 14 And I think LLCs are well known to be easily constituted, typically in Delaware. And you can do it basically with like a, you know, a Zoom legal doc capability.
They take about 15 minutes to build.

Speaker 14 So in this case, the summer, Tim, you know, when it looked momentarily, a couple weeks, like Trump was going to be an inevitability, you know, I just started really sort of flailing about looking for any way to get, you know, a grip on an effective criticism of Trump and just started spending time leafing through the FEC reports.

Speaker 14 So 69%

Speaker 14 of all of Trump's expenditures under his campaign went to an entity called American Made Media Consultants. American Made Media Consultants, you know, looked into who that was.

Speaker 14 Turns out that the Campaign Legal Center had filed a complaint at the FEC in the spring of 2021 asking the FEC to investigate investigate the payments made to American-made media consultants because those payments, it wasn't clear where they were going.

Speaker 14 And under FEC law, any expenditure over $200 must be disclosed. And you would also, under FEC law, you must know who the ultimate recipient is.

Speaker 14 Now, the reason this spurred additional inquiry is because the Campaign Legal Center was also able to discern that the entity American Made Media Consultants had been set up by Jared Kushner in the fall of 2019.

Speaker 14 Laura Trump was momentarily named president of the entity, and the Legal Center also chronicled that one of Eric Trump's deputies from the Trump organization ended up running this group.

Speaker 14 Do we know that they did anything wrong with American main media consultants?

Speaker 14 Do we know that money actually,

Speaker 14 all of the money was actually spent on campaigns, campaigning or not? You know, the fact is we don't know anything because

Speaker 14 in the end, the FEC voted three to three.

Speaker 14 the commissioners voted three to three to dismiss the complaint filed by the campaign legal center and at this point in time campaign legal center is appealing that decision in a DC court and you know it could eventually we could get some visibility into where those payments to AMMC actually ended up but for now we only have a set of facts a set of facts that are really quite astounding on its face and that's that 69 of the Trump expenditures went to an edit entity that was set up by Jared and headed by Laura.

Speaker 12 Who would have thought? The Trump family scamming and grifting.

Speaker 12 So, like, one example of this, right, is I remember there was like a big stink when on one of the FEC reports, I believe it was like Melania's stylist or something was on there, her personal stylist, right?

Speaker 12 And then that stopped happening, right? We're just speculating, obviously, we don't know, right?

Speaker 12 So, you don't know, it's the kind of thing where maybe she just started paying it for it herself, or maybe that's the kind of thing that you started putting under this group, right?

Speaker 12 Various lawyers lawyers they've got to pay like who the hell knows people that they want to put on contract that might have been you know potential witnesses in cases like all of this stuff is possible and like it definitely could tie into his non-election related legal troubles too Yes, and it was reported at least in 2020 around AMMC specifically that payments were made to Guilfoil and to Laura Trump, you know, retainers and the tens of thousands of dollars a month.

Speaker 14 Again, we don't know whether any of that is true, but that was reported around it. And then this cycle, there seems to be sort of a similarly troubling pattern.

Speaker 14 As you look through this cycle's FEC reports are really only available up until the details are only available up until the end of June.

Speaker 14 There's a new entity that makes frequent appearances under expenditures called Launchpad.

Speaker 14 And Launchpad is sort of another mystery LLC. If you go to the website, it doesn't say who's associated with it.

Speaker 14 It's sort of a generic ad agency, like no distinguishing characteristics about it whatsoever.

Speaker 14 And that entity is the recipient of around $15 million as of June 30th for the Trump 2024 campaign expenditures. One of the news outlets had tried to figure out what Launchpad was.

Speaker 14 It's a Delaware-formed LLC, but supposed to be headquartered in North Carolina. They checked with the North Carolina Secretary of State.
Under the Delaware documents, it should be headquarters.

Speaker 14 The Secretary of State had no record of the business in state.

Speaker 12 I mean, the FEC is embarrassing. This is a long-term problem, the way in which, you know, our campaigns have just turned into totally unregulated Las Vegas.
So that's a problem.

Speaker 12 And Trump stealing from his supporters is a long-held story that's been happening for a long time that I wish his supporters cared more about, but there's not a ton of evidence that they do.

Speaker 12 So that's a negative part of the story. Maybe the only silver lining to the story is that it is weird how little they've been spending on ads.
And that's something you talk about in the piece, right?

Speaker 12 Like that given what they've raised and given what the Harris campaign and what the former Biden-Harris campaign had raised versus the spending, like there's a gap there that's pretty noticeable.

Speaker 14 Yeah,

Speaker 14 it's a multiple, actually.

Speaker 14 Depending on what sort of ad, you know, ad tracker you look at, it's anywhere from three to one to Trump's matching Biden two-thirds to one-third, spending two-thirds of what Biden-Harris or Harris is spending.

Speaker 14 He's spending less. He's also really noticeably, the ground game is deeply lacking.
They're not spending money in key states.

Speaker 14 I think one of the stats that I've used in the piece was that as of June, the Trump campaign had only a single office opened in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 14 And by all accounts, Pennsylvania is going to be the tipping point state. You have to win that.
Whoever

Speaker 14 wins that state wins the election. So, I mean, really, what are they spending the cash on? I speculated that maybe they're

Speaker 14 holding it in reserve for some sort of big last-minute blitz. But again, that's all speculation.
And we really can't know where the money's going because the FEC just won't do its job.

Speaker 12 Anything else to get your eye?

Speaker 14 I think the legal expenses are not fully understood. We're never going to know, based on how the FEC works now, how many dollars are being used to pay for the legal bills.

Speaker 14 We know the legal bills are now tens of millions, estimated to be $50 million, $60 million.

Speaker 14 And this is for a campaign that, as of now, has raised $260 million.

Speaker 14 So back of the end vote math, a third of the expenditures may be going to legal bills. And that's, you know, how much money is actually going to be used for campaigning.

Speaker 14 One last point on sort of how much money will be used for campaigning.

Speaker 14 Human nature being human nature as we move into the fall and Trump's numbers, if perhaps they continue to drop and it looks increasingly unlikely that he could win.

Speaker 14 I think that it would be human nature for individuals to decide they're going to pad their nests as much as they can while

Speaker 14 the spigots are blowing cash.

Speaker 14 And it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy that they perpetuate the likelihood that they lose because the fact that they think they're going to lose, so they're just going to spend all the money self-deal, pay themselves as much money as they can while the money's flowing in.

Speaker 12 Yeah, get while the getting's good. Your lips to God's ears.
Okay.

Speaker 12 Well, one of the things that could help speed that process up would be some of our old friends actually doing what you and me have done and explicitly supporting Kamala Harris.

Speaker 12 And I'm just wondering, what is the psychology, what is happening here

Speaker 12 that we haven't, I mean, we kind of assume Liz will get there in the fall, but Esper was wishy-washy on TV yesterday.

Speaker 12 Christie's been wishy-washy, you know, going back to Bush administration officials.

Speaker 12 There was some gossip going around that Condi and Bob Gates were going to do something, but I think maybe that was false. I don't know.
You kind of live in these worlds.

Speaker 12 Like, what do you think is the holdup from like the more big ticket Bush officials as well as the kind of spurned Trump world people?

Speaker 14 You know, we can talk about the specific names, but for many of those, I think they are going to come home in the end for Harris. There may be some sort of careful, effective planning, I hope.

Speaker 14 You know, the convention itself was really quite a blockbuster. It was extraordinarily well done.
I don't know whether

Speaker 14 it would have been strategically wise to unveil any of these prominent Republicans during the convention.

Speaker 14 But I do think a cadence of holding these prominent Republicans potentially for after the debate, where if she

Speaker 14 does okay rather than amazing, then you would roll out some very prominent endorsements following that. But I think holding the endorsements that we are pretty sure based on

Speaker 14 at least how they've spoken previously are going to be supporting the Democratic ticket in the end.

Speaker 14 The ones that are waffling over the last couple of days, let's wait and see where the the poll numbers end up.

Speaker 12 Like the fingers in the wind for some of these guys.

Speaker 14 Yeah,

Speaker 14 some of these folks are young. They want to go out and have political careers after.
Their future entirely hinges on whether Harris could indeed win by a lot.

Speaker 14 And if she does, then I think they'll have a place at the table setting up what the future of the Republican Party is.

Speaker 14 If it's close, if it looks really close, and it feels like they are, you know, it's going to be a couple yards in a cloud of dust and there'll be no resounding verdict on Trumpism.

Speaker 14 I think they will support because I think that at that point in time, their voices will be needed and necessary, and they'll feel as though they won't have an opportunity to really sort of dig in and rebuild the party afterwards.

Speaker 12 I love optimistic, Juliana. I don't, I'm with, I hope that that's true.
My one area of disagreement is I don't, I don't know that there's a lot of strategizing going on.

Speaker 12 I, I, again, I put Liz in a separate category. I think that the rest of them, I don't, I have on good authority that I don't think that there's a strategic cadence being planned.

Speaker 12 There might be a strategic cadence that just falls into place.

Speaker 12 A lot of things have fallen into place for Kamala over the last five weeks, and would love for that hot streak on the craps table to continue.

Speaker 12 But anyway, are there other things besides Liz that you feel like really are going to get there? And they just need a little nudge? Is there anybody else that stands out?

Speaker 14 I think Harris is. consolidating control over her campaign now.
It's only been a couple weeks since she

Speaker 14 understood that she was going to be the nominee. And I think it's the long-term strategic planning that has her imprint and her leadership's imprint is really just digging in and getting started.

Speaker 14 And I fully expect a charm offensive to bring in every Republican of significance that would be inclined to support a Democrat against Trump this fall. And I think timing is going to be important.

Speaker 14 It needs to be a cadence of high-profile names throughout the fall.

Speaker 12 This is why we bring in Juliana. I'm over here rain cloud.
I'm stressing about this. I'm wringing my hands.

Speaker 12 And you're like, it's happening. It's happening, girl.
Calm down. So I appreciate that.
I hope that you're right. And maybe we'll have you back on a couple months.
We'll talk about it.

Speaker 12 Thank you very much for that piece in the New York Times. Thanks for coming on the Bulwark Podcast.
First time for Juliana. We will be talking to you soon.

Speaker 14 Thanks, Jim. Thank you all.

Speaker 12 All right, guys, everybody, we got a big one tomorrow. We'll be back.
Come check us out then. Peace.

Speaker 12 She's electric. She's in a family full full of eccentrics.

Speaker 12 She's done things I've never expected.

Speaker 12 And I need more time.

Speaker 12 She's got a sister.

Speaker 12 And God only knows how I've missed her.

Speaker 12 And on the palm of her hand is a blister.

Speaker 12 And I need more time.

Speaker 12 And I want

Speaker 12 you to know.

Speaker 12 I've got my mind made up now.

Speaker 12 But I need more time,

Speaker 12 and I want

Speaker 12 you to say,

Speaker 12 Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 12 But I need more,

Speaker 12 cause I'll be you and you'll be me.

Speaker 12 There's lots and lots for us to see,

Speaker 12 The Bullard Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 15 This is Matt Rogers from Los Culturist with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Speaker 17 This is Bowen Yang from Los Culturalistos with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Speaker 15 Hey, Bowen, it's gift season.

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Speaker 15 This is Matt Rogers from Lost Culture Eastas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

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