Adam Schiff and Michael Steele: A Stabilizing Force

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Speaker 3 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten. Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family.

Speaker 3 with a hidden motive to destroy them. This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 3 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes. Why is Adam after the Tanner family? What lengths will he go to? One thing's for sure: the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 3 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 4 Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.

Speaker 4 We've got Adam Schiff coming in a little bit, but first, my man, the chairman, former RNC chair, and Maryland Lieutenant Governor Michael Steele, co-host of MSNBC's The Weekend and host of the Michael Steele podcast, which is now here on the Bulwark.

Speaker 4 One more thing: if you want to see Michael and other MSNBC hosts in person, they got a live event in New York September 7th at the Brooklyn Academy of Music. Tickets are available now.

Speaker 4 What's up, Chairman? How you doing, man?

Speaker 5 I'm good, man. It's good to be in your house.
How you doing, bro?

Speaker 4 It's good to have you. And we're pumped to have the Michael Steele podcast in the Bullworlds.

Speaker 5 It's such a blessing. Network.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's so good. And we're crushing on YouTube.
It's just the people, the people are coming.

Speaker 4 We're putting out the honey, and the bees are coming.

Speaker 4 They're coming. They're circling us.
They're buzzing. We are taping this mere minutes after Kamala Harris has announced she's chosen Minnesota Governor Tim Walls as her VP pick.

Speaker 4 So, you know, that's going to marinate over the the week. We'll have different thoughts, but I just want to kind of start here and just see what your initial thoughts are on the choice.

Speaker 5 Look, you know, it's a very interesting dynamic in a vice presidential selection process where

Speaker 5 there really was no such thing as a bad pick for her, unlike what we saw play out on the Republican side, where there were good choices and bad choices that could be made.

Speaker 5 I think for the vice president, knowing her as I've gotten to know her over the years and certainly knowing what this process requires, I think of all the folks at the table, this is the guy that she connected with the best.

Speaker 5 A little bit closer to the earth. You know, he's a Minnesotan in so many ways on so many levels, you know, a hunter, grassroots kind of guy.

Speaker 5 Yes, he's got progressive views on some issues, but okay, so what? That gets washed out in the wash, as they say.

Speaker 5 You know, at the end of the day, she's going to be making the calls on what policies are advocated by the administration.

Speaker 5 But she, I think, found somebody who can go out and take the fight directly to Donald Trump and J.D. Vance and make the case.

Speaker 5 I mean, remember, this is the guy who, in just in the course of a conversation, branded the entire Republican ticket and the MAGA party as weirdos.

Speaker 5 And that branding has stuck.

Speaker 4 Oh,

Speaker 4 Chairman, you got to give Tim Waltz credit for that. You know, we got to give George W.
Bush something.

Speaker 4 He was dropping that shit back in 2016. Fair point.
Fair point.

Speaker 4 Fair point.

Speaker 5 Well, let's just say he learned from the best.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 5 But I think it's a good pick for her, and I think it'll work. Yeah, is there going to be noise about the summer of 2020 and the

Speaker 5 riots and the burnt buildings under his watch? Sure.

Speaker 5 But I suspect that that's something they've accounted for in this choice, unlike accounting for cat ladies by the Trump team, which was a lot easier thing to account for in that selection, but clearly they didn't.

Speaker 4 All right. I want to go through each of those things one by one, kind of his personality fit first, Then we'll get into the ideology and maybe some of the baggage.
The dude is affable.

Speaker 4 I do think there's a lot that comes to that, right? If you're Kamala Harris, this has been a whirlwind process. And you got this guy coming in that's just cheery, that's happy.

Speaker 4 I think that that matters.

Speaker 4 And I think the other part of his personality, you know, I wrote on, in some ways, there's this parallel to the Obama-Biden pick for me, where it's like, you got a top of the ticket.

Speaker 4 I'm interested in your take on this. You got somebody breaking a barrier at the top of the ticket.
First black candidate, you know, with Obama, No, first black woman, um, also of South Asian descent.

Speaker 4 And it's like, you know, we got to win over these white voters.

Speaker 4 Who is like the guy that looks the most like he eats at Arby's and knows how to fix my car, you know, and can like talk to folks down home.

Speaker 4 And I think that like he, I think that psychologically that was appealing for them.

Speaker 5 I agree.

Speaker 5 And look, you've got this sort of West Coast vibe about her, which obviously that's where she's from, that, you know doesn't necessarily translate across the country as you head towards the East Coast.

Speaker 5 And so, you do need that sort of stabilizing force, which Joe Biden was for Barack Obama, you know, as they, as Republicans like to say back in the day, Barack Hussein Obama.

Speaker 5 And so, you do look for the stabilizers in the relationship, just as Dick Cheney was a stabilizer for George Bush, you know, Al Gore for Bill Clinton.

Speaker 5 You know, a lot of times, the conversation around a VP pick is, you know, demographically and geographically, what do they bring to the ticket?

Speaker 5 But at the end of the day, it's who stabilizes the ticket. And that is something I think is going to be a very important skill set for Kamala as this campaign unfolds over the next 90 plus days.

Speaker 5 So, yeah, I think that's smart. I think it will play out well for her.
It doesn't avoid the traps and the pitfalls that lie ahead. But I think, you know,

Speaker 5 having that RB sandwich and then going shooting, you know, do a little duck hunting or just go hanging out on the back porch, I think he kind of stabilizes that aspect of Americana for her.

Speaker 4 Yeah, he represented some people in this. So his district in the house was southern rural Minnesota.
So kind of like the Iowa border, right? Rochester down to a lot of the rural areas.

Speaker 4 It was a swing district. It's a Republican that represents the seat now.
The last time he ran there, he only won by 2,500 votes, experience in the Army, did veterans, was the football coach.

Speaker 4 Here's one other thing I think that they're going to try to play up. Let's take a listen to this pro tip from Tim Walls during his last campaign.

Speaker 6 Hey, everybody, Tim here. 11 days till the election, but it's my pro tip of the day out on the road.
I got to show you this.

Speaker 6 This right here is the headlight harness on a 2014 Ford Edge. Ford, this is unacceptable.
It burned out hot on the connector.

Speaker 6 So for $7.99 at Napa Auto Parts here here in the city, you can replace this. Just clip off the back, use some shrink-wrap connectors on there, tape it back together, and put it back in.

Speaker 6 It's about a five-minute fix, and you're back on the road safe and sound. So, pro tip of the day.
Second one is get out and vote.

Speaker 4 You spend a lot of time at Napa Auto Parts, Jeremy? I love that.

Speaker 5 That actually happened to me. I get it.

Speaker 4 Totally.

Speaker 5 I totally appreciate that pro tip. Dude, I mean, who has that conversation so seamlessly and so effectively.
And voters looking at that and authentically connecting to it.

Speaker 5 The talent is clearly there as a politician.

Speaker 5 But I think the skill set to translate that for everyday voters, the choice is going to be made between Pennsylvania and Minnesota, Michigan, and places in the Midwest.

Speaker 5 At the end of the day, if you're not going with Josh Shapiro, all right, because he's going to deliver you Pennsylvania, who else can deliver you Pennsylvania?

Speaker 5 This guy, Tim Walls, will translate in Western Pennsylvania, and he will translate well in Western Pennsylvania, largely because of the thing you noted about his congressional district, its association and closeness to the people in Iowa and other parts of the Midwest that identify with that pro tip.

Speaker 5 And so, yeah, I love it. And Kamala Harris is not going to have grease under her fingernails, nor should she, but her VP can.
And he does.

Speaker 5 And I think that that's something that a lot of folks, particularly who are

Speaker 5 more Trump-adjacent, not all in OMAGA, really suspicious about a second term, really bothered by the idea of Joe Biden at the top of the ticket.

Speaker 5 Maybe a little question about Kamala, may feel a little bit better knowing that she's got someone who's grounded around her, who can keep her oriented and focused on what's happening in real America where they have to be concerned about that pro tip versus other parts of the country.

Speaker 4 You mentioned Shapiro. So let's just talk about, I think, a fair worry that some people have about this choice.
Walls ran in Minnesota in the midterm. Steve Kornecki has a good analysis of this.

Speaker 4 He didn't actually really overperform that much in rural Minnesota. So again, he represented the districts.
We have some experience there.

Speaker 4 But if you look at his governor's numbers, he didn't overperform in those districts as much as Josh Shapiro did. So that could have been as much about Josh Shapiro's opponent, campaign style.

Speaker 4 National campaigns are different than state campaigns. And the word that kept coming up with some people have concerns about this ticket for me, the phrase was missed opportunity.

Speaker 4 Do you feel that way? Like there's a miss if Pennsylvania is really the key state here, Shapiro had proven it. Walls, the vibe seemed good.
It seems like it could be good, but like...

Speaker 4 Shapiro did it already. What do you feel about that notion of a missed opportunity?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I don't think it's a missed opportunity. I think that's an overstatement.

Speaker 5 And, you know, I noted in a tweet this morning, shortly after the pick, you know, that the Josh Shapiro hand-wringing has already begun.

Speaker 5 All the little nervous Nellies about Josh Shapiro would have been the first ones critical of Josh Shapiro as a pick.

Speaker 4 No, Chairman. I'm sorry, Chairman.
I'm sorry. The Wall Street Journal Editorial Board and these guys weren't going to be on, these guys weren't going to flip sides if she picked Josh Shapiro.

Speaker 5 All the money guys are sitting there going, oh, we like him until they don't like him, right? And so look, the reality of it is, no, I don't think that that is

Speaker 5 as dispositive of anything more than anything else. In other words, I look at this selection and I boil down to two questions.
If you don't do Shapiro in Pennsylvania, then who gets you Pennsylvania?

Speaker 5 That's the bottom line, because Pennsylvania is still in play regardless. And so for whatever reasons and factors, and we know what a lot of them are, and look, you know, this crazy coming out of J.D.

Speaker 5 Vance's mouth this morning about, you know, Democrats being anti-Semitic, which is why they didn't pick Josh Shapiro. Well, then why didn't Donald Trump pick a Jew?

Speaker 4 Have the Republicans picked any Jewish people ever to run the

Speaker 4 no.

Speaker 5 No, they ain't picked. No.
Okay. So, you know,

Speaker 5 let's not go down that road. The reality of it is there's a political calculation involved here.
What do you give up if you pick Josh Shapiro?

Speaker 5 What other noise do you create for yourself that you have now had quieted down that you don't need to come back up from young voters out there that you're going to need in this coalition that you have to build?

Speaker 5 You don't need to have this fight in Michigan where you're already down, where you were down double digits in a state you should have been up double digits. So there are balances in the equation here.

Speaker 5 that have to be accounted for. And it doesn't fit everybody's political recipe.
This pick with

Speaker 5 is the closest to filling all those little buckets that you need to get something in as part of your recipe to winning. He will help you in Pennsylvania.
He will not hurt you.

Speaker 5 He's not Josh Shapiro, not like the guy who actually owns the home court, but he can play on that court just as effectively when necessary.

Speaker 5 As well as I think in other places in that sort of seven-bucket battleground state regime. So I'm not worried about that.

Speaker 5 I think this calculation was a smart one in terms of ultimately what do we need to get this ticket across the line? And it's got to pull at the heartstrings of middle America.

Speaker 5 And as you started off the conversation, Tim, this guy is likable. He's likable.
And he may help Kamala in areas where she's less likable.

Speaker 5 And I think that that, in the main, as someone who has done a few campaigns over the years and worked with a few candidates and have had to match up people in races. I think this is going to work.

Speaker 5 Now, I'm happy to come back on in November and eat my words, but I think this is going to work.

Speaker 4 I do. Affability and being a good pair matter.
I kind of thought that she was going to do that. She was going to pick Bashir because they kind of knew each other better.

Speaker 4 Walls has better candidate skills than Bashir. Okay, but we do real talk here.
I know you do. So let's just do.
Here's the little nagging concern, the little guy in the back of my head. That's like,

Speaker 4 maybe this pick was about affability. Maybe it was about the, you know, fixing car parts, you know, rural Minnesota.

Speaker 4 That maybe it was like that they knew that it would look good at the convention at will, telling his story, football coach, military, all that. Maybe the left bullied her, though.
Just maybe.

Speaker 4 Is it possible?

Speaker 4 Like, because there was a really aggressive campaign coming from the left, taking on Shapiro and Shapiro alone, not Pete, who the left tried to take on in 2020, not anybody, not Mark Kelly.

Speaker 4 Like, it was, it was a targeted effort by people, activists, and a small number of politicians in the party. Is there just any reason to be worried, you think, that she got a little...

Speaker 5 No, are these the same people that took out Joe Biden?

Speaker 4 No, different people. Totally different people.
Yeah,

Speaker 5 maybe different, but the same.

Speaker 5 The influence and the consequence was the same in that regard. I don't think that in the main, that was the ultimate effect on this.

Speaker 5 choice was that there's somehow this progressive cabal led by Bernie Sanders, or, you know, from the Republican perspective, George Soros, who is the demigod of evil for everything inside the Democratic Party.

Speaker 5 I don't buy that from the folks I've talked to and what I know

Speaker 5 inside the various tents that are camped outside the campaign, that that played the way a lot of folks would like to write the narrative politically.

Speaker 5 There were other decisions and other aspects of this decision which were much more problematic than a progressive assault on Josh Shapiro relative to Gaza and Palestine. It was a factor.

Speaker 5 There's no doubt about that. It is a consideration, among other considerations.
But

Speaker 5 there's a totality of the narrative that you're going to roll out. And then there's the consequence of that narrative when people start picking it apart and chewing on it.
And then you ask yourself,

Speaker 5 which one do you choke on as the candidate in the campaign? And you will choke less on this narrative than you will on some others.

Speaker 5 And so I think that that, at the end of the day, this pic for me, Tim, shows a level of wisdom that oftentimes gets lost when crunched up against other political realities and people panic and they overreact, in some cases underreact.

Speaker 5 I think that there was some wisdom here. And why I say that? Because a lot of the headlines this morning also

Speaker 5 betray the fact that he was not who they thought would be the guy.

Speaker 5 You know, you had a lot of conversation, obviously, about Shapiro, a lot of conversation about Mark Kelly, some about Bashir, whom I liked as well. Waltz was just kind of in the background.

Speaker 5 And it says a lot to me that someone had the wisdom, and I will give that credit to the vice president, as we should, because it was her pick, to look at this through a different lens and come to a different decision than what the insiders who always know so much more about what you should do than you do.

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Speaker 7 Listen to On Purpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 3 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carise Van Houten.

Speaker 3 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 3 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal. Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 3 Why is Adam after the Tanner family? What lengths will he go to? One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried. So keep your enemies close.

Speaker 3 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 4 All right, I want to do just two other things on Walls real quick, just on ideology. He was in the middle of the caucus when he was in the house.

Speaker 4 As governor, though, he's had a pretty progressive record. Universal free school meals, legal lead, carbon-free electricity by 2040, 12 weeks paid family lead, 12 weeks paid sick sick leave.

Speaker 4 None of this stuff is socialism, but like he went through a progressive tick list since he's been governor.

Speaker 4 But I want to listen, here's Nancy Pelosi on Morning Joe this morning talking about her view of his ideology.

Speaker 8 Tim Walls is wonderful. And

Speaker 8 she had many good choices among the six, and certainly among the two. I'm a big fan of Governor Shapiro.
Tim Walls, I know very well.

Speaker 8 He served in the House. To characterize him as left is so

Speaker 8 unreal. It's just not what the question is.
He's right down the middle. He's a heartland of America Democrat.
And he was the chair of our Veterans Affairs Committee.

Speaker 8 And I don't want anybody to forget that because he made tremendous, tremendous gains for our veterans.

Speaker 8 Working with our folks on the Appropriations Committee and with the speaker, we made more progress than had ever been made in the history of our country since the GI Bill under his leadership.

Speaker 8 25 years in the National Guard, longest serving non-commissioned officer ever served in the Congress of the United States.

Speaker 8 So he brings the security credential, he brings the rural credential, and he will do well in rural America.

Speaker 4 Convinced, not going to sell you? Are you worried about the progressive record as governor?

Speaker 5 I'm not. I think the progressives are aligned with this choice.
I don't think that they're going to be outdone by it. And I don't think the fact that you support weed is a progressive issue.

Speaker 4 I'm sorry. I'm going to go through the list.

Speaker 4 I mean, yeah, there's half the stuff I agree with. I'm just saying he took through, I didn't even make it through all of it, you know, a lot of progressive agenda items.

Speaker 5 Yeah, but I know a whole lot of conservatives who smoke weed. So, okay, there's that.

Speaker 5 So the reality of it is, I mean, that, you know, we want to term certain issues a certain way, and he's going to have to address that. And I'm sure he's prepared to do that and has already.

Speaker 5 started to do so in some of his early responses from weeks ago when his name popped up.

Speaker 5 You know, his Jake Tapper conversation is a good example of his sort of, oh, yeah, feeding kids lunch is, yeah, that's progressive.

Speaker 5 I mean, we sound stupid sometimes when we play this stuff back and start trying to put it in a bucket. I think conservative kids like to eat school lunch and breakfast too.

Speaker 5 So, you know, because their mamas and daddies are in hard times.

Speaker 5 But that's what I think is going to be interesting, Tim, is that how much does this ticket reshape the way we talk about some of these issues with a guy like him in the conversation?

Speaker 5 And that's what I'm looking to see play out. I mean, you and I have been in enough rooms along the spectrum of Republicans to know what's bullshit and what isn't, right?

Speaker 5 And appreciate the sort of finer edges of how people live out their lives. Now, I think some of that conversation between the two vice presidential campaigns, right?

Speaker 5 For example, the hillbilly versus the, you know, the T-150 guy.

Speaker 4 I love the J.D. Van.
I feel I've failed as a podcast host by not bringing up. The J.D.
Vance contrast is so delicious. It's my favorite part of the pic.

Speaker 4 It's like this fake Hillbilly who was a VC and went to Yale and lived outside of Dayton, really, when he grew up and is like, you know, doesn't have a single callus on his hands against Tim Walls.

Speaker 4 That's going to be delicious. It's going to be delicious.

Speaker 5 And you're just going to be, you're going to be all over that conversation.

Speaker 5 And I think that that's what's going to be fun and interesting about how both of these campaigns prosecute their narratives to the middle of the country because that's where this election is going to be won.

Speaker 5 And it's going to be won among 50 to 60,000 Americans who happen to decide the last week of the campaign who they're going to vote for.

Speaker 4 Are you worried about the Minnesota, the 2020 riot stuff coming up? That's my other worry.

Speaker 5 I only worry about stuff when I worry about how people are are going to talk about it. And I'm not sure yet.
I have not heard the governor address that in this context.

Speaker 5 I've heard him address it in the context as governor during the time, which may or may not, you know, cut the mustard.

Speaker 5 But as a vice presidential candidate, it'll be interesting to hear how they have that conversation. It will have to be addressed.
You know, big parts of downtown

Speaker 5 burned under his watch. And so he's got to have a response to that because, you know, you've got folks out here already saying, you know, with images of buildings on fire, this is what

Speaker 5 Harris Waltz wants to bring to every city in America. Well, okay, that and, you know, a bucket of spit can put out the fire, right? I don't know.
What are you telling me? So

Speaker 5 the reality of it is, yes, that is a concern. But again, I cannot help but think, Tim, that you know that going into this.

Speaker 5 And you don't have a response ready, you're not prepared to address that as a campaign or as a candidate, either presidential or vice presidential, then why did you pick him?

Speaker 5 If you know that that's if that's going to be part of the conversation, if you were that deaf, dumb, and blind to it, then that says more about the choice than the actual choice.

Speaker 5 So I think that they're going to be ready for that. We know it's coming.
It already is. I'm only curiously nervous because I have not seen it addressed in this new capacity yet.

Speaker 5 And so we'll see how they roll that out.

Speaker 4 Yeah, he did activate 7,000 troops of the Minnesota National Guard, the largest deployment of the state's forces since World War II. So he did something, but I didn't say that's we're not going back.

Speaker 4 That's the thing that mostly worries me. We're not going back.
That's what she says. So I don't want to just get bogged down in that.
That worries me. Okay, final Tim Walls fact.

Speaker 4 Then I got one Trump thing for you. I'll let you go.
Are you ready for this fast fact? What's that? Just brace yourself. Okay.
Tim Walls is younger than Brad Pitt.

Speaker 4 Damn.

Speaker 4 Damn.

Speaker 5 Well, it says a lot about Hollywood makeup.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I don't know. He's not doing that moisturizing that you and me are doing, I don't think, up in Minnesota.
He's got to find that moisturizer. All right, last thing I got to do this before we go.

Speaker 4 I'm surprising you with this. Yesterday, Donald Trump did an interview, a live stream with this guy, Aiden Ross, who, if you don't know, God bless you.
He's 23 years old. He's a MAGA live streamer.

Speaker 4 Most of his audience are teenage boys. We're going to have to have a longer conversation about this, Chairman, at another date.

Speaker 4 We gotta first prioritize this election, then we gotta start talking about what's happening with the teen boys out there.

Speaker 4 But I'm not gonna play a clip from the interview with Trump because it was so boring, but I just to get a sense for the idiocracy that we're heading to.

Speaker 4 This is Aiden Ross earlier this year responding on his live stream to somebody calling him a fascist.

Speaker 5 What does a fascist mean?

Speaker 9 It means you are

Speaker 9 a far-right authorization.

Speaker 4 Oh my god, ultra-analytist,

Speaker 9 analyst, political ideology movement characterized by dictator leadership, centralized autocracy, militarism,

Speaker 9 forcible suppression, suppression of opposition. So I don't know what that means, right? I swear to God.
I don't know what the fuck a fascism is. I don't know what the fuck that is.

Speaker 9 Benito Mazzouli and Givente

Speaker 9 Genital and Jason Stanley. Like, who the fuck are these people, bro? Never heard of my fucking life.

Speaker 4 Oh my god. That person got an exclusive interview with Donald Trump yesterday.

Speaker 5 Yeah, so we just

Speaker 5 you just played that clip and you're good.

Speaker 4 I mean, that

Speaker 4 you don't seriously.

Speaker 5 Okay,

Speaker 5 first off,

Speaker 4 damn, you dumb, bro.

Speaker 5 23?

Speaker 4 Seriously.

Speaker 4 Woo!

Speaker 5 Dang,

Speaker 4 do a Google. All right.
He was trying.

Speaker 5 No, but no, but start with Google pronunciations. Just start there.
Just put the word in and have it say it back to you. So you know Mussolini, not muscle, whatever you were trying to say.

Speaker 5 Dude, seriously. And Donald Trump, see, but that tells you everything you need to know right there: the unseriousness of a guy like Donald Trump.

Speaker 5 It's all about the theatrics, the people who pour love onto him, no matter how damn dumb they are, because

Speaker 5 they obviously can't be smarter than him.

Speaker 4 Boy, we're in a dark place. Hector Mountain Duke Camacho is going to be the president soon.
I don't know, man. We got to beat these guys.

Speaker 4 This isn't.

Speaker 4 That guy's going to be the Secretary of the Treasury in 2028 if we don't get our shit together, Chairman.

Speaker 5 Him with the mic drop.

Speaker 4 All right. Michael Steele, go check out his podcast on the Bulwark Network.
We're crushing it right now. We're so happy to have him in the family.

Speaker 4 Watch the weekend. Go see him live if you want to be in New York on September 7th.
Up next, Adam Schiff. I appreciate you, sir.
We'll see you soon.

Speaker 5 Love you, brother. Take care now.

Speaker 7 Some moments in your life stay with you forever.

Speaker 7 In a special segment of On Purpose, I share a story about a book that changed my life early in my journey and how I was able to find the exact same edition on eBay years later.

Speaker 7 There are certain books that don't just give you information, they shift the way you see the world. I remember reading one when I was younger that completely changed me.

Speaker 7 Years later, I found myself thinking about that book again. I wanted the same edition back.
Not a reprint, not a different cover, that exact one. So I started searching.

Speaker 7 And that's when I found it on eBay. That's what I love about eBay.
It's not just a marketplace, it's a place where stories live. Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.

Speaker 7 eBay, things people love.

Speaker 7 Listen to on purpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 3 Get Ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 3 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 3 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal. Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 3 Why is Adam after the Tanner family? What lengths will he go to? One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 3 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 4 Hey, everybody. I take this interview with Congressman Chiff on Monday evening.
I think he dropped a little hint about who he thought the VP might be if you listen closely to his answer on Tim Walls.

Speaker 4 But we get into a bunch of other interesting issues and topics, including our love of Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the machinations that she may or may not have been engaging in behind the scenes.

Speaker 4 So it is a good one. Here he is, Congressman from Greater Los Angeles.
He's also the Democratic Senate candidate in California. He's running against 1970s baseball player Steve Garvey.

Speaker 4 And of course, you may remember that he was the lead impeachment manager during Donald Trump's first impeachment. Congressman Adam Schiff, enjoy.

Speaker 4 How you doing, Congressman?

Speaker 10 I'm good. Great to be back with you.

Speaker 4 I'm just so excited to have you. I want to just put my cards on the table here at the start.
You know, it's important as an interviewer.

Speaker 4 We have some policy disagreements, of course, but there were two times this year where you really impressed me.

Speaker 4 The first was when you spoke out against the anti-Semitic protests of the Gaza War while in a Democratic primary, jungle primary in California, that you still won or finished in the top two.

Speaker 4 And then just recently, right when the pressure on President Biden to step aside was easing following the failed assassination attempt on Trump, you were the first after that to speak out and you took heat for that.

Speaker 4 So that's two times you've been taking heat from the home team when I think you're on the right side of it. So I just just want to talk about both of those.

Speaker 4 Why did you feel good about speaking out about some of the troubling aspects of the protest during that primary?

Speaker 10 Well, I feel a personal obligation to speak out whenever I see anti-Semitism rear its ugly head. And all too often we have seen this dramatic explosion of anti-Semitism at home and around the world.

Speaker 10 Just the latest demonstration, I don't know if you saw this, Tim, but somebody painted the statue of Anne Frank, painted her hands red as if she had blood on her hands over a war that was decades after she perished during the Holocaust.

Speaker 10 She had no connection to the Israeli government, obviously, no connection to Bibi Net Yahoo, no connection to anything having to do with the war, but she was a Jew, and that was all the connection that was necessary.

Speaker 10 Hard for me to see that as anything other than anti-Semitism.

Speaker 10 And so, you know, whether it's acts like that, desecration of cemeteries, whether it's kind of pro-Hamas language on some of the college campuses, the intimidation of Jewish students, I'm going to speak out.

Speaker 10 And I have. I'll continue to and feel very strongly about it.

Speaker 10 And I think really falls on all of us in the Jewish community, outside the Jewish community, to condemn that kind of hate and really all forms of hate.

Speaker 4 Obviously, I completely agree with that.

Speaker 4 And I think for me, the lesson, and it ties to, you know, kind of the pushback following, you know, the comments about President Biden, which were, I think, clear-eyed about the challenge that the Democrats were facing at the time, came from these loudest possible voices.

Speaker 4 And I just kind of wonder, as a member, as a representative, how do you balance

Speaker 4 taking feedback from constituents versus trying to weed out whether there's just one group that's that's very loud on social media or just kind of very loud and they're protesting at events?

Speaker 10 Well, you know, you mentioned a couple of the statements I made that may have gone against the grain with some of the members of the party, the other being about Joe Biden.

Speaker 10 Let me start with Joe Biden's approach to this war,

Speaker 10 which I think laudably was to try to figure out what's the right answer here. What's the right thing the United States should do? What should we say? How do we defend Israel?

Speaker 10 How do we do everything we can to bring about a resolution of this war that leads to a regional and lasting peace?

Speaker 10 He did not approach this, has not approached this from the point of view of what's the politics of this? How do I deal with the politics of this?

Speaker 10 And then I'll adapt the policy approach I take to the politics. And we started by asking what's the right answer here? What should I be doing? And he did it.

Speaker 10 You know, he went to the Middle East during the first week of the war when it was widely believed that Israel had bombed a hospital in Gaza when, of course, it turned out to be Islamic Jihad that had bombed the hospital.

Speaker 10 But a lot of presidents, other presidents, would have canceled the trip. Arab leaders were already pulling out of it, but he didn't.
And, you know, my approach honestly has been much the same.

Speaker 10 And that is, you know, this is an issue of life and death. This is an issue of a horrible act of terrorism and hate against the people of Israel, a war that was not chosen by Israel.

Speaker 10 And we have a duty to defend our ally and a democracy. But I approach this with compassion towards innocent Palestinians that are caught in the conflict.

Speaker 10 I don't think it's incompatible with human nature to be concerned about any loss of innocent life, but

Speaker 10 continue to try to figure out, okay, what's the right thing? I'll deal with the consequences later.

Speaker 4 Moving to the other case I was referencing, Ike, that had to be tough on you. What made you decide to speak publicly? And I know that your view

Speaker 4 in those days leading up to President Biden making the decision that he was going to step aside was pretty prevalent in private among Democrats.

Speaker 4 But there was a period where folks were cautious.

Speaker 4 They didn't want blowback, maybe. They didn't want to offend the president, maybe.

Speaker 4 They didn't want to offend their own supporters. What was that decision process like for you to decide to say, hey, I just think we need to do what's best here for the party in the country?

Speaker 10 Well, it was really hard, and it was hard because I have such enormous respect for President Biden. I think he's been one of the most incredible presidents of my lifetime.

Speaker 10 What he has achieved in one term rivals what any have achieved in two.

Speaker 10 But I was increasingly worried that he was not going to be able to prosecute the case against Donald Trump with the vigor necessary to succeed.

Speaker 10 And after having worked so hard to hold Trump accountable for his many abuses of power, his criminality and corruption, you know, if I felt I was doing anything less than doing everything possible to keep him out of the Oval Office again, I think I would look back with regret that I should have said something, I should have done something, that I could see a potentially terrible election outcome on the horizon.

Speaker 10 So I began by appearing on Meet the Press and urging the president to talk to people outside of his circle that he respects and admires, talk to pollsters that are not his own, make an informed judgment, and that I was confident that when he did that, he would do what he always did, which is make the decision in the best interest of the country.

Speaker 10 And that ultimately was exactly what he did. And

Speaker 10 it's an extraordinary thing that he did. And I want to point out, too, just how extraordinary it is by contrast with what we have seen so often in the Congress in the last eight or ten years.

Speaker 10 And that is the utter capitulation of principle, of oath of office, of public interest in the service of ambition. J.D.
Vance, kind of front and center exhibit A,

Speaker 10 someone who called Trump a potential Hitler, unfit for office, a cultural opioid, deciding to join the unfit ticket.

Speaker 10 You know, Vance is so exemplary of the phenomena we see all the time now, which is this craven capitulation to this most unethical of former presidents.

Speaker 10 And what Joe Biden did, that selfless act, is in such sharp contrast that it really, I think, just burnishes Joe Biden's legacy even more.

Speaker 4 Totally agree with all of that. Totally agree with the contrast.
But, you know, just between you and me and our listeners, does Nancy Pelosi, do we need to send her a Jenny's ice cream or anything?

Speaker 4 Does she need to get a bonus medal or anything?

Speaker 10 Well, I have to tell you that I enjoyed reading all the commentary while all this was going on, in which some pundits or other insiders said that Adam Schiff's lips may be moving, but it's Nancy Pelosi's voice or my favorite, which was that I was deployed by Nancy Pelosi like a drone, like an armed drone.

Speaker 10 I told the speaker thereafter, I don't know how I feel about being referred to as a drone, but if I was going to be a drone for anyone, I would be a drone for you.

Speaker 10 The reality is, in terms of my own role in this, I made an independent judgment about it. I actually didn't speak to the speaker before I issued the statement I did.

Speaker 10 And I will leave it to the speaker to discuss her private discussions with the president or other members.

Speaker 10 I can tell you that I was hearing from a lot of my colleagues who are in tough races, tough Senate races, tough House races, who felt being pulled down by the weight of gravity. And

Speaker 10 I also felt that I could speak out about this when a lot of my colleagues either couldn't or wouldn't, and so that I could be a voice for those in the party that thought that passing the torch would just burnish the president's legacy even further.

Speaker 10 And now seeing this outpouring of enthusiasm, excitement surrounding Commission campaign is really just wonderful and exciting to see.

Speaker 4 I assume you've got to know the vice president quite a bit. I mean, obviously, both California both have been there for a while.

Speaker 4 Is there something about her campaign or about that she brings that is unique that has impressed you over the years or something you're most excited about thinking about Kamala at the top of the ticket?

Speaker 10 You know, I think she really brings the kind of energy, new ideas, new thinking of another generation into this race.

Speaker 10 And it has completely flipped the script in so many ways on Trump and the Trump campaign. He is the old throwback in this race.
He's the one who wants to move the country back.

Speaker 10 He's the one who can't relate to, you know, sort of anyone under 70.

Speaker 10 And I think her experience as a prosecutor, as our attorney general, is quite relevant to a lot of the public safety concerns that people have.

Speaker 10 Her job as a senator, and she and I interacted most over intelligence community issues when she was on Senate Intel and I was chairing House Intel.

Speaker 10 So I've I've had a chance to see her up close and personal, to see the way her mind works, to see her devotion to our national security and to our public safety.

Speaker 10 And so I'm excited, I'm not surprised at what a great campaign she is already running.

Speaker 10 And most particularly, I've always felt that this election was going to be decided by young people in one of two ways, young people turning out to vote or young people staying home.

Speaker 10 And now I think young people suddenly find they have a reason to turn out and a reason to be interested.

Speaker 10 And what's more, some even have a reason to think politics is cool, which we haven't seen really since the Obama years. So really, I think she brings so much to the table.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned her experience on the Intelligence Committee.

Speaker 4 I think that's maybe where she's the most underrated right now about how serious she's been on a lot of foreign policy issues. Maybe hasn't gotten as much credit for that.

Speaker 4 We're doing Veep stuff right now. So we're taping this Monday evening.
This will air Tuesday afternoon. So my guess is that we'll know who the VP is by the time that this podcast airs.

Speaker 4 So I'm just wondering and looking at the two people who, according to reporting, maybe this is wrong.

Speaker 4 There have been headfakes before in VeepStakes, but assuming it's Governor Walls of Minnesota or Governor Shapiro of Pennsylvania, I'm just wondering what you think either of them would bring to the ticket.

Speaker 10 Well, first of all, since this is like the air after the choice has been made, let me just say, I knew it.

Speaker 4 I knew it.

Speaker 10 I totally knew it, but I just couldn't say it. I think they both bring incredible strengths.

Speaker 10 I was just on a Zoom with Tim Walls, and I was really impressed, and this sort of goes to, I think, the heart of his strength, with how he responded on the issue of abortion and reproductive freedom, which I think a lot of men in discussing doesn't come naturally to them.

Speaker 10 Sometimes it seems forced.

Speaker 10 But here was Tim, and I think it was in reference to this issue, saying, you know, here in Minnesota, and I won't do it as well as Tim did, but here in Minnesota, you know, we have a saying, mind your own damn business.

Speaker 10 You know, this is not something that the state or politicians or government should be involved in deciding. This is what a woman should be deciding.

Speaker 10 And it was just so authentic and so relatable and comfortable. And I think he brings that kind of Midwestern character that has enamored him of Minnesotans, but also people throughout the Midwest.

Speaker 10 That would be a great asset on the ticket. Josh Shapiro brings other tremendous strengths.

Speaker 10 Obviously, super popular governor of maybe the most important state among the battleground states, Pennsylvania. He's been a successful governor with a divided legislature.

Speaker 10 He's got a razor-sharp intellect. He's great on the stump.
So, I mean, even if he delivered nothing more than Pennsylvania, that's worth the price of admission. So, he's a great choice.

Speaker 10 And I like them both. I think you can't go wrong there.
And I love how there was already this tremendous momentum behind the vice president.

Speaker 10 And now with this announcement, there's going to be a a new jolt of energy momentum leading up to the convention.

Speaker 4 There's some on the left that are saying Shapiro would be a divisive pick.

Speaker 4 I got into a little exchange, a well-intentioned exchange with Mehdi Assan about this earlier today, saying he's concerned that it would be divisive, that it would be backlash against Josh Shapiro because some of his statements about Gaza.

Speaker 4 I disagree with that. I don't think it would be particularly divisive, but I'm not a Democrat.
I'm a former Republican. You're a Democrat.
What say you? Are you concerned at all about

Speaker 4 potential brush blowback among maybe some of those young voters you mentioned earlier if Shapiro is the pick?

Speaker 10 I'm really not concerned about it. And I think some of those that are saying it will be divisive are saying they're going to make it divisive.
It won't be divisive unless people choose to do so.

Speaker 10 And that would be so self-destructive. I think

Speaker 10 given that we have such a profound opportunity with this new top of the ticket to really move the country forward. And this is such an

Speaker 10 incredibly existential election. We need to be all together on this.

Speaker 10 And what's more, Josh Shapiro's positions on the war in Gaza are really no different than any of the other top vice presidential contenders.

Speaker 10 And it deeply troubles me that there is this double standard being applied to him, that they're going after him rather than going after any other choices.

Speaker 10 And it's hard for me to attribute that to things apart from his being Jewish and being held to a double standard.

Speaker 10 You know, I think among the Jewish members of Congress, I can probably speak, I think, for most of my colleagues who feel that on many occasions we've been held to a very different standard, subject to that old stereotype of dual loyalty and that kind of thing.

Speaker 10 And given the similarity in positions between Josh Shapiro and the other

Speaker 10 candidates or potential candidates for vice president, I think these attacks on him are wholly unwarranted and are applying that pernicious double standard.

Speaker 4 All right. I want to hit on a couple of policy issues before I lose you.
Just before we get on today,

Speaker 4 there were attacks on the U.S. al-Assad air base in Iraq.

Speaker 4 I think there's some assumptions that those are Iranian proxy attacks.

Speaker 4 At this moment, the intelligence is not out on that. I'm curious your thoughts on whether the Biden administration has taken a tough enough line on Iran and

Speaker 4 the unrest that we're seeing and

Speaker 4 the threats that we're seeing from Iran over the last few weeks.

Speaker 10 I think the president has handled this about as well as you can handle it because, on the one hand, you want to do everything to deter Iran. You want to respond to any kind of attack or provocation.

Speaker 10 You want to support Israel and have Israel's back. But you also want to take every step you can to avoid this becoming a regional conflagration.

Speaker 10 That's not in anyone's interest, not in the United States' interest, and certainly not in Israel's interest.

Speaker 10 If Iran, Hezbollah, open up a northern front in the north of Israel, that's going to be cataclysmic.

Speaker 10 Israel is already stretched thin, arguably to the breaking point, dealing with this incredibly difficult urban tunnel warfare in Gaza.

Speaker 10 To have a full-fledged conflict with Hezbollah, which has much more precision weapons, let alone with Iran, is something to be avoided. So

Speaker 10 it's a difficult line to walk, and I think the administration has done it about as well as you can possibly do it. We will have to respond to this attack on our people.

Speaker 10 We're going to defend our people. I don't know enough, except the public reports at this point, to have a sense of was this ordered by Iran? Is this an Iranian proxy sort of acting on its own?

Speaker 10 I think there is an interest in Iran in also not escalating to a full-out war with Israel. But I'm going to await further information before I make any judgment about it.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Listen, do you give that answer? I just am always slapping myself.
I just can't help but do the George W. Bush Iran pronunciation of Iran.
And, you know, it's just, I'm a 2000s

Speaker 4 bushy. What can I say?

Speaker 4 I just ask for the mercy of the court on that one.

Speaker 10 I look back almost fondly to those days of nuclear strategy.

Speaker 10 My favorite was when

Speaker 10 Will Farrell

Speaker 10 reprised his role as George W. Bush during, I think, the first few months of the Trump presidency.

Speaker 10 And he walks on to the set of Saturday Night Live, and the first thing he says is, so, how do you like me now? Those days do look quaint compared to the present.

Speaker 4 Okay, I'm losing in three minutes. So just rapid fire.
You took a shot at J.D. Vance and the Republicans on this child tax credit this week.

Speaker 4 Just what a disaster from these guys to claim that they are the ones fighting for these families and attacking childless cat ladies and they can't extend the child tax credit.

Speaker 10 It's so true. I mean, when we doubled the size of the tax credit, we lifted 40% of the kids in the country who were in poverty out of poverty.

Speaker 10 The Republicans wouldn't let us extend it, and millions fell right back into poverty. That's just heartless and cruel.
And, you know, it should tell us something.

Speaker 10 Some of the solutions to poverty are not rocket science, but they are policy decisions that we're making or not making. And Vance and Republicans are making the wrong decisions.

Speaker 4 Every time I have a California person on, I've got to ask them, why can't California build more houses? You know, this is a Democrat-only state. This is your guys' mess.
You're running for Senate.

Speaker 10 What's the Well, you're absolutely right. And this is the top issue of my Senate campaign.

Speaker 10 And that is, I'm out there making the case that we need to build hundreds of thousands of new units every year.

Speaker 10 In terms of what the federal role can be, we can vastly expand the low-income housing tax credit. But at the state and local level, we're going to have to make it easier to build.

Speaker 10 We're going to have to get to yes faster. We're going to have to bring the cost down.
And bringing the cost down means bringing the timeline shorter.

Speaker 10 And I want to see the federal government do everything it can to incentivize local government to make these approvals or make these decisions in much more rapid order.

Speaker 10 Because it's, you know, for some cities, costing $1 million a door to build affordable housing. And we're never going to solve the problem if we're spending a million dollars a door to build housing.

Speaker 4 Amen to that. All right.
Donald Trump's called you a lot of nicknames. Do you got one name for him before I let you go?

Speaker 10 Well, after November, more appropriately than ever, biggest loser.

Speaker 4 All right. Thank you to Congressman Adam Schiff, running for Senate in California.
Check out his campaign website. Support him if you're out there in California.

Speaker 4 We appreciate you coming on the podcast. We'll talk to you soon, sir.

Speaker 10 Talk to you soon.

Speaker 4 Thanks so much to Congressman Adam Schiff and the chairman, Michael Steele. Make sure you've subscribed to the Michael Steele podcast on your app of choice.

Speaker 4 We'll be back here tomorrow for more walls analysis and a deep dive into Donald Trump's time in exile in Mar-a-Lago. We'll see you all then.
Peace.

Speaker 4 Stoning up the clues, it had its sudden blue bruise through by showing

Speaker 4 Settle past the patient swell wishes, and you will love spilling pictures.

Speaker 4 Water's running through in the valley where we go to at description.

Speaker 4 The Bullard Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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