Jennifer Palmieri: The Making of the First Woman President

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Speaker 1 Why is Adam after the Tanner family? What lengths will he go to? One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 1 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

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Speaker 3 Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
I'm just so pumped. We have the very perfect person for this day, this moment in time, my friend Jennifer Palmieri.

Speaker 3 She was communications director for Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign. And during Obama's second term in the White House, she was the co-host of the late Showtime show, The Circus.

Speaker 3 Emmy nominated again.

Speaker 4 Emmy nominated again, Tim.

Speaker 3 We did it, Joe. She co-hosts the How to Win podcast with Clara McCaskill, my partner in crime on MSNBC.

Speaker 3 And her last book, which is one thing we need to talk about, she proclaims our Declaration of Independence for a Man's World.

Speaker 3 You've written the book about how women politicians should deal with this moment. And, well, I think that we've got one of those right now.

Speaker 4 We do. Yeah.
Right.

Speaker 3 Before we get to your advice for Kamala on how to kind of combat misogyny and sexism and how to, you know, come into her power, I want to talk about somebody else first.

Speaker 3 Can we just have a little, can we have a little fun first? Absolutely. How much time have you spent thinking about J.D.
Vance lately? More than I expected. J.D.
Hamill.

Speaker 4 More than I expected.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I just didn't realize there was as weird, you know, weird stuff out there about him as there is.

Speaker 3 It's pretty weird.

Speaker 4 I didn't appreciate how bad he was going to be. That was a surprise to me.
I did not know that he was terrible on the campaign trail as well.

Speaker 3 Yeah, you didn't like the please laugh moment? I saw Jeb this morning. We had breakfast, so I can do it.
I can make that joke.

Speaker 3 But his, his like, please laugh, where I love you guys, says to nobody, like the old Bud Light commercial. Like, who's this weird guy getting drunk? Tell me he loves me.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I guess I just didn't watch him all on the campaign trail in 2022. I guess he really wasn't on the campaign trail, right?

Speaker 4 I mean, this is why they didn't really have him do a lot, like when he was running against Tim Ryan in that Senate race. So I was a little surprised at just how

Speaker 4 off the charts and just gnarly the, you know, like the misogynistic stuff is too.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, I want to run through some of those.
I want to do a little JD Vance's greatest hits for a Friday for the weekend pod because I got to tell you, I don't know about you.

Speaker 3 My Instagram feed of moms in my life and women in my life who are not, I'm not talking about, you know, the Jen Palmieres, the Mars. I'm not talking about the activists.

Speaker 3 I'm talking about moms from school. Right.
They don't like some of these clips. So let's take a listen to J.D.
Bands talking about childless cat ladies.

Speaker 5 Look, what I was basically saying is that we're effectively run in this country via the Democrats, via our corporate oligarchs, by a bunch of childless cat ladies who are miserable at their own lives and the choices that they've made.

Speaker 5 And so they want to make the rest of the country miserable too. And it's just a basic fact.

Speaker 5 You look at Kamala Harris, Pete Buttigig, AOC, the entire future of the Democrats is controlled by people without children.

Speaker 5 And how does it make any sense that we've turned our country over to people who don't really have a direct stake in it? I just wanted to ask that question.

Speaker 3 Huh, okay. My favorite part of that clip, as I always mention, is that Pete Buttigig gets thrown in there.
Very subtle stuff there.

Speaker 3 Really subtle. And Pete ended up having two kids subsequent.
That was an old clip from like a couple years ago, but

Speaker 3 very subtle homophobia there. The childless cat lady thing, though, that was like a, we point and laugh at the crazy MAGA right clip for a while.

Speaker 3 Like it's been going around, but now that he's on the VP ticket and now that Kamala is the one that he's running against, the potency of that, I feel like, is different. And it makes people mad.

Speaker 3 It makes women mad.

Speaker 3 Anyway, so talk about how that can be potent as a political thing.

Speaker 4 It really makes women mad. And I'm visiting my parents in Rhode Island right now.
And I was at the grocery store yesterday.

Speaker 4 And some woman in the, like one of the aisles recognized me from Morning Joe, I guess and she she had a towering just like a towering stack of cat food cans and she just looked at me with this big mischievous smile on her face and just like threw them into her shopping cart and like struts away you know like it just is

Speaker 4 i think there's something empowering about putting a woman at the top of the ticket and we can talk a lot about like why this time there's less fretting about it because it it happened and you know it just kind of happens and then

Speaker 4 you don't need to fret about whether or not it's a good idea oh she lucked blah blah blah blah like it's happening.

Speaker 4 But it's shocking to me because until last week, the Republican ticket was in a strong position, right?

Speaker 4 That

Speaker 4 they,

Speaker 4 you know, instead of choosing somebody who could be appealing to women, which you think they might want to do, right?

Speaker 4 And instead of having a Thursday night slate of speakers tonight that Trump spoke that could be appealing to women, instead they just like double down on

Speaker 4 as Tim Walls, who's like my new fave, Governor Tim Walls Walls of Minnesota. You know, I didn't know anything about him until this week, but like he calls him like the He-Man Women's Haters Club.

Speaker 3 Like, why? He also has leaned into something that I've been pushing for a while, which is the weird. Call them fucking weird.
Weird. They're weird.
Call them weird.

Speaker 3 Like, they want to act like they're the normal bros who like hang out at the lacrosse guys' table. But no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 3 They were the weirdos sitting next to the lacrosse bros' table, trying to be friends with them by like making very strange attacks on the girls that wouldn't sleep with them.

Speaker 3 That's the table they're at. They're at the weird guys' table.
It's all high school cafeteria for me. It's important to get that in mind.

Speaker 4 We never evolve beyond high school. I mean, people, you know, and it's, it's really, it's just human nature.
We like to think that it's about being young, but really, it's just human nature.

Speaker 4 And I also think that it's like coming at a moment with like Taylor Swift just like being such a huge phenomenon and Beyoncé being such a huge phenomenon and Taylor Swift being childless and having and loving cats.

Speaker 4 And so like, it's like you're just poking just like like all the wrong things.

Speaker 3 So then on top of making fun of childless cat ladies and like saying that childless cat ladies are running the world, which is also the weirdest thing.

Speaker 3 Like have you looked at pictures of who the CEOs are of the companies? Like that, it's it's offensive and weird and false. Like it's all of them.

Speaker 3 On top of that, there's some kind of policy implications that are more serious and pretty scary. Let's go through a couple of them.

Speaker 3 The first one, here's JD talking about how parents should get an extra vote. Let's take a listen.

Speaker 6 Let's give votes to all children in this country, but let's give control over those votes to the parents of those children.

Speaker 6 When you go to the polls in this country as a parent,

Speaker 6 you should have more power. You should have more of an ability to speak your voice in our Democratic Republic than people who don't have kids.
Let's face the consequences and the reality.

Speaker 6 If you don't have as much of an investment in the future of this country, maybe you shouldn't get nearly the same voice.

Speaker 3 All right. And then, Jen, you and I, we were on the road together in Arizona.
We were at a pretty hot event. And by hot, I mean, it was host, but also it was hostile

Speaker 3 with Blake Masters and my friend Rick Rinnell. Here's Blake.
You remember Blake failed Senate candidate, Blake Masters? He was responding to that.

Speaker 3 You might think that people right now who are currently running would be like, ooh, JD was just joking or whatever. Parents shouldn't get an extra vote.

Speaker 3 We shouldn't treat women without children as less than human. But no, Blake Masters doubled down.
Political leaders should have children. Certainly they should at least be married.

Speaker 3 If you aren't running or you can't run a household of your own, how can you relate to families or govern wisely? So they're just like rolling with this.

Speaker 4 I remember covering when he was the Senate candidate against Mark Kelly and women at a Carrie Lake event telling me that they weren't going to vote for him because his ads and his oasters were scary and off-putting.

Speaker 3 Creepy. Creepy.

Speaker 4 These are women at a Carrie Lake event who are really excited about Carrie Lake and Christy Noome. She was there too.

Speaker 4 And they're not going to vote for Blake Masters because they found him off-putting and scary and too intense and having mean-looking signs.

Speaker 4 But also, there's just like a lot there, like running households. What does it say about them?

Speaker 4 They must think they can't win women and they can't win swing voters and all they can do is jack up turnout. Sometimes you can explain why something is happening, but I don't, I really don't get this.

Speaker 4 I really don't get why they continue to think that that's in their interest.

Speaker 3 Or they just may have one speed right like i think that's also what we saw at the republican convention was they have one speed which is grievance and when they try to go to someplace else they they are then they're just low energy sorry i know you just had breakfast with jeb i know i know that's okay hey two hits on jeb already in this podcast catching strays left and right i'm floating him for the beep stakes you know try to get a little bit of balance The thing about the masters thing, I think that these guys are just a little brain broken.

Speaker 3 I think that they've like been listening to Tucker Carlson's podcast too much. You think they believe it? Yeah, I don't really think it's a strategy.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 I think that they like think that, well, A, I think women have probably been mean to them. Yeah, right.

Speaker 3 I think that they like look at society and they're like, yeah, the problem is that, you know, we need to go back.

Speaker 4 They do think we need to go back.

Speaker 3 They think we do need to go back. Kama's like, we're not going back.
We need to go back. Women should stay at home.
It's good for the family.

Speaker 3 And they read these weirdo, you know, Catholic integralist bloggers and then they watch Tucker Carlson and then they and then they tie it into gender transitioning.

Speaker 3 And I do think their brains have just gotten warped warped into this kind of online bro world.

Speaker 3 And then they say stuff out loud like women who are childless should have less voting power than women with children. And it's like, they don't know how that lands with people.

Speaker 3 Like maybe women who want to have kids but couldn't, for example. I wonder how that lands with them.

Speaker 4 There's a lot of us that are like that. I think that having the woman at the top of the ticket, you know, I've always, there's like a big thing with the Clinton campaign.

Speaker 4 Did Hillary, having Hillary as the Democratic nominee, draw out Trump on the Republican side?

Speaker 4 There are lots of reasons why Trump and the MAGA world is appealing to a big part of America, but there's also this sort of, you know, almost mystical overlay of

Speaker 4 people in America coming to terms with the fact that women in charge is no longer an exception, but becoming the norm.

Speaker 4 You know, I do kind of think that that is what the fierce fighting about taking away women's rights, you know, at some level, that is what it's about.

Speaker 4 It's like, we need to control these women because because they have upended everything. We need to go back, right?

Speaker 4 And now you have a woman at the top of the ticket, and it's just, it's probably triggering.

Speaker 3 I think that it's definitely triggering. I mean, I think that some of these guys are just shit posting idiots, but some of them are reading people that have very dark views.

Speaker 3 Megan McCarthy messaged me and sent me something that was Megan McCarthy? Yeah, she's, you know, she's a Twitter personality slash reporter. Okay.

Speaker 3 She pointed me to the policies in Romania in the 60s to the 80s and Ceaușescu. And and she finds this.

Speaker 3 They banned contraception and abortion and imposed a celibacy tax on families that had fewer than a certain number of children.

Speaker 3 And then they had state doctors conducting gyneological examinations in the workplace of women of childbearing age. Now, I don't know that we're going all the way there, right?

Speaker 4 Right, but it's on the table. And it's certainly like within women's imagination after

Speaker 4 you take away Roe, you know, and like you look at the southeastern United States and what's not allowed there. Like, yeah, that's on the table.

Speaker 3 That's the thing about the Project 2025 that I keep wanting to point out that's the real scariest, the creepiest, the weirdest. It's like,

Speaker 3 okay, maybe, you know, Donald Trump doesn't want to do that, right? But the weirdest dude that they put in HHS that they vetted, like, actually is into Chechescu.

Speaker 3 That's the point that everybody needs to really just kind of take in. Like, the types of people that are going to be staffing a Trump 2.0 are not.

Speaker 4 And he's going to let them do it, right?

Speaker 3 I mean, like, what we know is that his record is that he always lets the most MAGA, the most crazy the most extreme elements do what they want to do and then be proud of it yeah until they cause problems for him which might be happening with jd vance right now you know he hates oh my god there's a lot of second guessing he hates us and he's so mad at don junior oh he's so mad why

Speaker 3 don jr could not be in a bigger doghouse right now it is really

Speaker 3 just warms my cockles just thinking about it okay one more JD Vance before we get to the new presidential nominee.

Speaker 3 Again, on the serious side of things, you know, taking this from shit posting to serious policy. Here is Vance on blocking travel for abortion and maybe the need for a federal law on that.

Speaker 7 Okay, look, here's a situation. Let's say Roe versus Wade is overruled.

Speaker 7 Ohio bans abortion

Speaker 7 in 2022 or 2000, let's say 2024.

Speaker 7 And then, you know, every day, George Soros sends a 747 to Columbus to load up disproportionately black women to get them to go have abortions in California.

Speaker 7 And of course, the left will celebrate this as a victory for diversity.

Speaker 8 That's kind of creepy.

Speaker 9 Health justice is going to be exterminated

Speaker 3 across black people.

Speaker 8 Something really, yeah, something like that could. I mean, that would be a really weird turn of events that could happen.
Yes.

Speaker 7 And it's like, if that happens, do you need some federal response to prevent it from happening? Because it's really creepy. And, you know, I'm pretty sympathetic to that, actually.

Speaker 3 Jen, I mean, that might be the one that's the most damaging politically.

Speaker 4 That is, well, because it's very real. You know, it's not just, it's not just offensive.
It doesn't, you know, that is like you're truly messing with women's health care.

Speaker 4 It doesn't stay contained to the states that where these things are, you know, procedures are banned. It's like affecting doctors everywhere.
It's affecting people who go to med school.

Speaker 4 It's like young women are making decisions about where to go to college based on where they have rights and where they may not. That's a very real health risk.

Speaker 4 And as much as Trump tries to take abortion off the table, that, you know, I think Democrats will be successful in making him own not just, you know, as Kamala Harris calls them, the Trump abortion bans.

Speaker 4 That's what they are. They're Trump abortion bans.
And the six-week ban in Texas, that's a Trump abortion ban. He made that possible.

Speaker 4 But when you have the running mate, you know, talking about these kind of measures as well, women will take those very seriously.

Speaker 3 Something I've been saying for a long time. You've got rich Democratic friends Sometimes call you for advice.
So the bros might care about this too. Oh, of course.

Speaker 3 I think that there could be a super PAC that could make Mike Johnson and J.D. Vance's views a little famous.

Speaker 3 I think that there's a category of bro out there that is a barstool bro that thinks Donald Trump is based or whatever and doesn't think he really is going to do anything, but also has their own interests, personal interests, and maybe wanting women to be able to have a choice of their own.

Speaker 3 I don't know if they want creepy Mike Johnson and weird JD Vance

Speaker 3 creating federal rules about what should happen

Speaker 3 if they have a big night at the frat house. That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 4 It's a good micro-targeting project.

Speaker 3 You're right.

Speaker 1 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 1 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 1 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal. Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 1 Why is Adam after the Tanner family? What lengths will he go to? One thing's for sure: the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 1 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

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Speaker 3 Well, now Kamala Harris is

Speaker 3 like that's what it was. So there you go.
So let's just start square one here. Obviously, there's been a ton of incoming attacks on her.
Right.

Speaker 3 Some of them racially coded, gender-coded, some of them just policy, some of them not even coded, just straight racist and sexist.

Speaker 3 Like what, like, what kind of advice do you have for her and the team on how to think about all that?

Speaker 4 Her team is very deaf at this.

Speaker 4 They spend a lot of time with researchers, understanding how people process, the kind of questions that people have for women candidates, which are different than male candidates, and also why these kind of attacks come your way and what's the best way to respond, but not undermine the candidate, right?

Speaker 4 So let's go with the DEI candidate. What they're fundamentally trying to do there is say that she is not qualified for the job.
And, you know, what I would say in response is

Speaker 4 she's not qualified for the job. And then there's an element of grievance, right?

Speaker 4 That like people are getting promoted that shouldn't get promoted and they're getting promoted at your white male expense.

Speaker 3 I'm getting screwed over. My son's getting screwed over.

Speaker 4 Right, right, right. So there is that element too.

Speaker 4 And the most effective way to come back there is to talk about the qualifications of Kamala Harris, that she is more qualified than Donald Trump or J.D.

Speaker 4 Vance and more prepared to do this job than either one of them. Even though Donald Trump had the job, but he he did such a bad job, he got impeached twice for doing a bad job, right?

Speaker 3 Contrast that with what's a bad response to it.

Speaker 4 A bad response is: this is racist and sexist.

Speaker 4 And that's a bad response, not just for her, that is a bad response for surrogates on the outside who are trying to help her because that makes her a victim.

Speaker 4 And first of all, women candidates cannot be victims. Views on women candidates are always changing.
And people do think that women are strong and they think women are tough.

Speaker 4 And you have to lean into this and say, you know, if I were on TV and somebody said, you know, oh, Kamala Harris, they said she's a DEI candidate. I say, you know what?

Speaker 4 Kamala Harris has been a prosecutor, an attorney general, senator, biggest state of the country, vice president, and hopefully now president. She's been hearing this her whole life.

Speaker 3 It doesn't bother her.

Speaker 4 She's fine, right? She can handle it. But you know what? I hate it that our daughters are hearing this.
I hate it that young women are hearing this. And you know what?

Speaker 4 I don't think black voters and female voters are going to like hearing this very much. We constantly have to remind voters of a woman's qualifications for the job, even when they're in the job.

Speaker 3 That's not like it's all the world's trying to hold women back.

Speaker 4 That's not what's happening, but it's still kind of a new thing. And we have to be reminded of that.
I never said she's been subject to racist attacks her entire career.

Speaker 4 I just evoke for you the roles that she's played. And you can imagine if she's the prosecutor in San Francisco 20 years ago, what that was like as DA and what kind of attacks she might have gotten.

Speaker 4 You're getting it, but I'm not saying she's a victim of racist attacks. And also, that's what they want to do.
They're trying to keep this in the race and gender space.

Speaker 4 And what you want to say is they're coming after her because she is qualified. She is prepared to do the job.
Neither one of them are.

Speaker 4 And they see that she's electric on the trail. You know, that is what they're trying to do.

Speaker 4 When you're not her and you're not her campaign, I do think it's important to make, you know, like you establish her credibility, her credentials.

Speaker 4 But these kinds of attacks, like they're going to turn off other voters because they are racist and they're sexist. But you got to protect her from that.
And like, she's tough. She can handle it.

Speaker 4 But, you know, it's bad for young women to hear this. And it's bad that this side, that side is spewing that stuff in the world that young girls are going to hear.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I do wonder just on this issue, I always think about, I know this is a fake person, but the character in the white lotus, the mother. She's at breakfast.

Speaker 3 You know that show, the white lotus on HBL? It's like a bunch of rich people out in an island. No, I know.
The mother.

Speaker 3 Connie Brayton is a friend of mine.

Speaker 3 Hey, Connie. There you go.

Speaker 3 I'm sure she's a listener. No, we would love it.
We love Connie. We just, we admire, we revere Connie actually here on this podcast.
Yeah. It wasn't her character.

Speaker 3 It was only the other characters that says the moms like, you know, Maya, my son is just getting screwed over trying to get into colleges, right?

Speaker 3 Because everybody these days, you know, because so it's even a mom, right? But it's like, it's kind of the mom that you're going to need on this stuff.

Speaker 3 So like, is there a way to kind of engage with those kind of concerns, do you think, that's useful or productive?

Speaker 4 I don't, I don't really know that there is other than that she has, other than having women feel like, wow, she's worked really hard to get where she is. And when you're saying she's been at this for,

Speaker 4 she was AG and DA for almost 14 years before she was United States Senator. Also, what you're trying to evoke is like a long, hard slog of like having done a lot of hard work to earn where she is.

Speaker 4 I mean, I know what you're saying, but I just don't know if you can get to like, there's only so much you can do, right? There's other reasons why that woman should not vote for Donald Trump, right?

Speaker 3 That's what you have to do.

Speaker 4 Seriously.

Speaker 3 You that they're going to do the lightweight thing. I think the lightweight thing? Yeah, that's what they're going to try to do with her.
They're going to be like, she's a lightweight.

Speaker 4 She's a lightweight. JD Vance is not a lightweight.
JD Vance has been a senator for about 10 minutes. He wrote one book.
He's gotten propped up by Peter Thiel his whole career.

Speaker 4 And she's got a 20-plus year in elected office, like really hard jobs, and she's a lightweight. Donald Trump's won one race in his entire life.
He can't complete a sentence and she's lightweight.

Speaker 4 And also the thing with it is, is that in my responses, I know that what I'm, I know, just because I know a lot about this, I'm reaffirming all the things people need to hear about her, even if she wasn't getting attacked, right?

Speaker 4 So, I mean, they'll do them and all. That's fine.
But like, there are ways to deal with this stuff that there was not when Hillary ran in 2016.

Speaker 3 In what way? Talk about that more.

Speaker 4 There's just a lot more women leaders, right? It's just become more normal. There's a generation, you know, I know Harris technically is a baby boomer, but Gen X is a vibe and she's got it, right?

Speaker 4 Gretchen Whitmer, another Gen X leader, comes under a lot of attacks. And I've talked specifically with Whitmer about this, you know, where she said, I saw Hillary get attacked.

Speaker 4 I saw Jennifer Granholm when she was the first woman governor of Michigan get attacked. I know it's not on the level, so I'm not going to let it bother me or stop me, right?

Speaker 4 And I think you kind of saw like a switch go off in Harris about eight months ago where she's like, oh, people are going to criticize me no matter what. I'm fine, whatever.

Speaker 4 And she is like taking the field with a lot of confidence. And I think that that's, I think that's why.
And we're more used to it. And, you know, Hillary was the before times.

Speaker 4 Any criticism of her, people thought was legitimate criticism of hers and didn't pause to think, maybe she's just a little confounding to me because I haven't seen a woman in this role before, as opposed to, there's just something about her I don't like.

Speaker 3 Another difference between Hillary and Kamla.

Speaker 3 is one, Hillary was the target and victim, we could really say, of slander for like two decades that was just deep in the water table, in addition to the misogyny, right? Like just

Speaker 3 the personal, which Kamala hasn't really had.

Speaker 3 On the other hand, on the other hand, Hillary, she was Secretary of State, right? So it was hard to say about Hillary that like she isn't up for standing up to Putin or she, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 With Kamala, I do think some people don't exactly know what her foreign policy experience is. Right.
And then there's the implicit misogyny.

Speaker 3 So what do you think about that, kind of how to handle the toughness on the world stage?

Speaker 4 Yeah, a couple of things about that. I saw Ben Rhodes, but but I saw both Ben Rhodes and Tony Blanken talk about her.

Speaker 4 And this is what I feel like the cabinet can be really good surrogates for her because they can talk about working with her and the job that she did.

Speaker 4 And, you know, Tony went through, oh, I shouldn't call him Tony. Secretary Blinken.

Speaker 3 He's called him Tony. Went through a

Speaker 3 podcast.

Speaker 4 He went through a litany of, you know, places he's been with her, problems they've dealt with together.

Speaker 4 And Ben, I have to say, and I have to text him about this, was particularly so effective that one of the women researchers I work with texted me and she was like, Ben Rhodes is perfect.

Speaker 4 Because what he talked about wasn't just, you know, I've been in these rooms with her.

Speaker 4 We talked about like, I've been in really tough meetings with her with really hard discussions, you know, and she stands up to, you know, whoever it is, right?

Speaker 4 So it's not just, it's like evoking for people.

Speaker 4 the context of what that what does that experience okay she has it's don't just say the litany of the thing she's done what's the context of what that says about her and the qualities of leadership that she has and reaffirming those but there's a really big important structural issue here that I think is going to work in her favor that I want to mention too.

Speaker 4 But I think that the deeper you and I are getting this conversation, you can see how compared to Trump or Advance,

Speaker 4 she can emerge as the tougher, stronger, clearly more experienced, more prepared leader. And the big thing going for her, though, is the 100 days and not having gone.
through a primary.

Speaker 4 Why has America never had a woman yet president?

Speaker 4 It's because one of the reasons is our primary system, the way we elect presidents, really disadvantages women because, and here, look at 2020, six women ran very experienced, you know, Harris, Gillibrand, Warren, Klobuchar, oh, Tulsa Gambard.

Speaker 3 Okay, okay, well, we're going to set her aside. Five great women.

Speaker 4 And what was all the coverage? Betto, Buddha Judge, Bernie, and Biden. Betto and Buddha Judge, not nearly as experienced as any of the women that I just mentioned, but we recognized them right away.

Speaker 4 A lot of potential. Ernest Young guy, the floppy hair.
You see RFK. You see, you know, like we get it.
We see, we get excited about them. And it just takes women a long time to break through.

Speaker 3 Beto is a little dreamy. Betto is a little dreamy.

Speaker 3 Dreaminess is dreamy. Dreamy is dreamy.
Not much.

Speaker 4 I mean, nice guy. Nice guy.

Speaker 3 But anyway, anyway, but see, see, this is all in your head. It's all in your head.

Speaker 4 So you either never break through, or it's what happened with Clinton, is that we had so many attacks that you come into the general election with a lot of baggage and a lot of questions about like, why is there something about her I just don't like?

Speaker 4 And Harris has been presented to us

Speaker 3 as

Speaker 4 the solution,

Speaker 4 the winner. She's not someone, and also ambition is such a big thing.
She's not someone who sought this out. She was loyally standing by her man, Joe Biden, just being a great number two.

Speaker 3 And he asked her to do this.

Speaker 4 He said, she is the person I want to do this. So she is coming forward to us as as a clear winner, everyone rallying behind her.

Speaker 4 I think we probably don't give enough credit to President Biden and how important it was that he endorsed her, that he said she's the one, and everyone rallied around her.

Speaker 4 And now she is coming to us, not as someone like, oh, she's seeking that, she wants to be the first woman president. She's always wanted that.
It's like, she's solving a problem.

Speaker 4 And I think that's partly why some of the memes that used to hurt her, like coconut tree, people love now, but a couple months ago, they didn't.

Speaker 4 It was a thing a couple months ago, and people didn't love it. You know, people didn't used to love her laugh.

Speaker 4 And instead, everyone is just the response is, you know, the right tries to push something and people are like, I love her.

Speaker 3 I got her back.

Speaker 4 And I think it's partly about the scenario by which she became the leader. And this is often how women.
break that class ceiling, by the way, in other countries.

Speaker 4 It's this situation where something happened to the man. They were a number two.
Something happened. They had to take over.

Speaker 4 And then we did an article about Jacinda and the parallels between Jacinda and New Zealand and Jacinda, Julia Gillard in Australia, probably 10 years prior to Jacinda. Same deal, same situation.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 One thing that she has done, which I've liked, you know that this is appealing to the bulwark crowd, which is yesterday, man, on this question of how you balance USA strength with care, yeah, strength with patriotism, with also progressive values.

Speaker 3 I thought she was very strong in her statement after a meeting with Bibi. Here's a written statement, though, about the protests.

Speaker 3 I condemn any individuals associated with the brutal terrorist attack organization Hamas, which is avowed to annihilate the state of Israel. Pro-Hamas graffiti and rhetoric is abhorrent.

Speaker 3 I condemn the burning of the American flag. That flag is a symptom of our highest ideals as a nation.
This is somebody that's in it to win it, Jen. This is somebody that is in it to win it.

Speaker 4 I mean, I just, I love it.

Speaker 3 Oh my God.

Speaker 4 I love it so much. She is just like,

Speaker 3 boom, boom,

Speaker 3 shutting it down.

Speaker 4 There's no caveats. It's just like all declarative set.
It's just like USA, you want to stand up and salute. Look, it's been six days, five days, five days, five days.
But they have been really deft.

Speaker 4 And also, hats off to the Biden team. Because by the way, everyone's like, oh, Harris' team is so great.
It's like, it's the Biden team mostly.

Speaker 3 With a couple of key cogs that might have been problem people missing, but we're not going to do that today. We're not going to do that.

Speaker 4 And also Brian Fallon, who I have to say.

Speaker 3 Oh, Brian Fallon.

Speaker 4 Brian Fallon. And Brian Fallon has been in it, man.
He has been through the wars. So, yeah, really good.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Maybe a couple of the people around Biden, not as involved.

Speaker 4 But Kristen Allen's comms person.

Speaker 4 Yeah,

Speaker 3 they're good. I want to do just really quick, a fun one.
Did you hear this on Fox yesterday morning? This was Fox and friends doing an accidental ad for Kamala Harris. Let's take a listen.

Speaker 19 Also, the conviction rate, which we're not going to please many in the minority community, went from 52% to 67%.

Speaker 19 So that was better for some and not not good for others

Speaker 3 well let's just put that on tv into the green bay media market can we do can we run that oh her conviction rate went up i'm sure black people are going to be so upset that she convicted criminals what

Speaker 4 i know they're stuck thinking that it's a primary it's not a primary she won the primary she won the primary big right the degree to which it lasted about 12 hours she won that big and then also i think they're thinking the stuff we hit her with before is going to work again.

Speaker 4 Really, what it's about, like all the stuff, like kind of memes about her is all about authenticity, right?

Speaker 3 That's the thing.

Speaker 4 But she's conquered that now because she's coming into this as the answer, the solution that everybody was looking for, and having proved to herself as three and a half years as Biden's vice president.

Speaker 4 It's not going to cause her the problems with on the Democratic side and some swing voters that it caused for Clinton. It's just not.

Speaker 3 Here's what I think could work. We have five minutes.
Let's focus on, we've done a lot of dunking. Let's focus on what could work.
She ran way too far to the left in 2019.

Speaker 3 I don't believe it to be authentic, Kamala, just if you look at the holistic of her record. But the audio and the video, we played the Dave McCormick ad yesterday, decriminalizing.

Speaker 4 That's on an ad, by the way. That thing is 90 million.

Speaker 3 They're going to cut that stuff into ads.

Speaker 3 They're going to shorten it. Why haven't they done that yet?

Speaker 4 It's kind of lame.

Speaker 3 Well, they're not exactly firing on all cylinders down there in Mar-a-Lago right now. If I don't know if you've noticed that, they're a little bit lost on what to do.
Yeah, it's weird.

Speaker 4 It's weird. Like, I don't know.

Speaker 14 Some of them are effective.

Speaker 4 La Civida and Suzy.

Speaker 3 I don't know.

Speaker 3 That's what he's doing. He did the Swift boats.
That's my point. He did the Swift boats.
He's going to be able to dial in on something that works. They'll figure that out.
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 And maybe it's the border. Maybe it's her views of decriminalizing the border.
Maybe she did say one time she was supportive to defund the police movement that's out this morning.

Speaker 3 She has been against, you know, some of the energy drilling, supportive Green New Deal. So I guess I just think about when you think of, I mentioned this yesterday.
Right.

Speaker 3 Some of the key voters here are back to our people. Atlanta suburbs, Philly suburbs, the people that voted for Biden, that are Republicans.
They voted for Brian Kemp and they voted for Biden.

Speaker 3 They're really Republicans, but they hate Trump.

Speaker 3 Can the Republicans effectively turn her into a California far-left liberal that turns off the Brian Kemp Biden voter in Georgia, and that's just enough on the margins? That worries me.

Speaker 3 I think that is the one thing I've seen that has a little bit of potential effect. Well, how would you handle that if you were them?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's legit. That's legit.
I would lay down record now, right? Because Because you're right.

Speaker 4 There are those clips that I've seen, they seem to be all from the 2019 Democratic primary, as opposed to positions that she acted on and the positions that she had.

Speaker 4 I would do a lot of bio now as a, you know, what's the word I'm looking for, you know, to protect herself.

Speaker 3 Prosecutor, center, pro-capitalism, pro-law and order, American. Here's her record.

Speaker 4 This is what you can count on Kamala Harris to do. When she was a prosecutor, she did this.

Speaker 4 When she was a senator, you saw her in these tough situations where she, you know, at, you know, in the hearing rooms.

Speaker 4 And as vice president, you know, by the way, United States energy development, domestic energy development, the highest it's ever been. U.S.
oil production, the highest it's ever been.

Speaker 4 So I think you have to, you got to come in with like what you can count on her to do based on what she's done before, right? That's different than there was a couple of statements from 2019.

Speaker 4 And then like, you can't get too wrapped around the axle about that, right? Because like, I don't agree with all a lot of the things she said, but I'm going to vote for her.

Speaker 4 And there's millions, right? And then, and then you got to go to contrast, but I think you have to lay down the actual record of what she's done.

Speaker 4 And I would make that, like, here's what she's done be the thing.

Speaker 3 Does she have to hippie punch anything a little bit?

Speaker 4 I don't know what that means.

Speaker 3 You know, it's like where you take a gratuitous shot at the left on something to just demonstrate, like, you know, oh, actually, I think it was really silly that they wanted to do this thing on the border on immigration or on energy or something.

Speaker 3 Like, you know, and I actually believe, or does she have to say she has to change her mind? I changed my mind on that.

Speaker 4 No, I don't think I like I don't like you iterate on this stuff, right? So I would go in strong with like strong bio of what her actual record is.

Speaker 4 And then you kind of iterate on like what, you know, I don't think, for example, I think that statement yesterday about the protests was, she didn't go out of her way to hit the left, but that gives you a pretty strong signal of where she's, you know, where she's coming from.

Speaker 4 So I don't know that like, you know, we used to call them sister soldier moments, right?

Speaker 3 I like hippie punching better. Yeah, I hear you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 hippie punchy is good you know it's more important to be authentic i think these days than like look for something contrived like i'm very much not for contrived okay final do and don't dear madam president advice for you know all of the all of the white guy operatives out there giving advice on tv do and don't like that like really be wary when you're like you know the like the big there's just something about her or like don't you know when it's like when you have a critique that you can't quite pin down it's a generality you got to check yourself and think about like where it's really where it is really coming from and then just like i said before understand

Speaker 4 that it's just different what you need to do to boost women candidates and it is like it's the backing up of the qualifications and doing that not as uh something she has to prove but as a good contrast point to trump advance because she's got more more experience in both of them.

Speaker 3 Amen. Jen Palmieri, my friend, dear madam president is the book, an open letter to the women who will run the world.
Up next, a mailbag.

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Speaker 3 All right. Hey, guys.
I want to take one or two mailbag questions, but also wanted to cover the latest polling news. And, you know, what we've seen here is movement that I think that we expected.

Speaker 3 You expected if you were listening to this podcast, which is Kamala Harris really

Speaker 3 doing that easy first step of gathering that low-hanging fruit of bringing voters who should be Democrats, who are double haters, back into the fold.

Speaker 3 The number of double haters is going to go down quite a bit as people consolidate around the two candidates.

Speaker 3 The New York Times Sienna College poll, which has been probably the most negative or one of the most negative towards Democrats out yesterday, but they're very rigorous in their methodology.

Speaker 3 So I think it's important to just look at them as a baseline. Trump 48, Harris 47 among likely voters, Trump 48, Harris 46 among registered voters.
That is a narrowing of the gap dramatically.

Speaker 3 Trump was plus six among likely voters, plus nine among registered voters against Biden in the last New York Times poll. A couple of things to note underneath.

Speaker 3 Trump's favorability is up a little bit since the assassination attempt and the convention. Not that surprising, but worth noting.
He's up to 48%, which is about his high watermark.

Speaker 3 Harris's favorability is up to 46%.

Speaker 3 Harris gets huge bumps among 18 to 29 year olds. She's doing slightly worse among seniors, something that we talked about with Ron Brownstein.

Speaker 3 And you see on the multi-candidate ballot, Kennedy really starting to drop.

Speaker 3 And I think that a lot of that is there were some soft Kennedy supporters who are basically Democrats that just were unhappy with Biden that are now moving back into the Harris camp. So good news.

Speaker 3 I mean, not, you know, it's a fight. There's going to be a fight ahead.
There's going to be a campaign ahead. It's going to be a close campaign.

Speaker 3 But the things that were striking about Joe Biden's weakness have been basically resolved within five days. All right.
Over to the mailbag. On this point, Jessica asks, can the polls be trusted?

Speaker 3 If not, why, why not? One way to think about this, about the polling is, A, it's a Snapchat in time, so it's not predictive per se. B,

Speaker 3 There's a margin of error, and I think it is challenging to poll certain groups these days.

Speaker 3 And when you're basing polling, you know, based on weighting things, based on what you expect an electorate to be,

Speaker 3 that's part of a pollster's methodology. And so that's why you want to look at good pollsters versus bad pollsters.

Speaker 3 But even good pollsters sometimes are wrong about what they kind of expect the electorate to look like. So

Speaker 3 I don't take them as gospel in that. Donald Trump is definitely winning by two points or one point right now based on the Sienna poll.

Speaker 3 What you can learn from it is that directionally, you can see where Conala Harris is doing better and worse. It kind of matched our prior expectations in this case.

Speaker 3 I think mostly because it was pretty obvious which groups she was going to do better and worse with, but it's good to see data that supports kind of the observable reality out in the world.

Speaker 3 And, you know, there are other things.

Speaker 3 One thing I kept talking about before Biden stepped aside was that if you just looked at head-to-head polls of the Senate candidates and the presidential ballot in the same state, there was this huge gap between Biden and say Bob Casey in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 3 You And to me, that what we know,

Speaker 3 maybe the numbers aren't exactly right. Maybe there's a margin of error on where they were, but directionally,

Speaker 3 it's not bias against Democrats if the Democratic Senate candidate is doing well and the Democratic presidential candidate is doing poorly.

Speaker 3 That's not a sign of bias against a certain party or under-sampling or missampling.

Speaker 3 That's a sign that there are voters out there that are saying, yeah, I will vote for the Democrat for Senate, but I won't vote for Joe Biden. We're going to see that narrow.

Speaker 3 But those kind of numbers, that comparison between the Senate ballot and the presidential ballot is something that I'm going to be looking at very closely.

Speaker 3 So short answer is, yes, you can directionally trust them. No, you know, they're not oracles where if the poll says one thing, then it will definitely become that.

Speaker 3 One more mailbag question from Becky. What do you think the effect would be better or worse if Biden stepped down from office, making Kamala Harris president of the United States?

Speaker 3 Clearly, at this point, that's not going to happen, you know, unless there's a health event or, you know, something extraordinary.

Speaker 3 And there's been plenty of extraordinary things happening the last three weeks.

Speaker 3 You know, JVL wrote about this in the triad a while ago, kind of making the argument for letting Harris run as president.

Speaker 3 I think that there are some compelling points on that side, you know, going to this conversation we just had with Jen, just kind of being in the role, you know, gives a level of heft and weight that makes all of the arguments that Jen was saying she should be making and her surrogate should be making against J.D.

Speaker 3 Vance and Donald Trump even more powerful. Having to call her madam president makes it even more powerful.

Speaker 3 On the the flip side of that, she is campaigning so much harder than Joe Biden was campaigning.

Speaker 3 One of these huge advantages that you see out there is, you know, there's a New York Times rate that said Joe Biden called 20 politicians in 10 days following the debate and Kamala Harris called 100 in one day.

Speaker 3 All that stuff matters, right? Her ability to go out and campaign, you know, if you become the president, like there's presidenting things you have to do.

Speaker 3 And particularly, you know, you have this short turnaround, right? We're getting briefed up on things. You have to deal with with staffing.
There's a lot of contingencies.

Speaker 3 So I think at this point, it worked out in a way that is conspiring to benefit the vice president.

Speaker 3 And I think that, you know, there's not really much sense thinking about the counterfactual at this point.

Speaker 3 You also have, you know, thinking about going ahead, one other item I didn't get to with J-Palm was the coming debate.

Speaker 3 Donald Trump yesterday starting to back off a little bit of the debate and vice president, the VP, then going and trolling him for that.

Speaker 3 You might notice she quote-tweeted our new colleague, Sam Stein. Sam reported Trump camp says he's backing out of the debates.
Kamala retweeted that with what happened anytime, any place,

Speaker 3 burn.

Speaker 3 And I think at the end of the day, Trump is going to have to debate her. I just don't think the machismo element will allow him to duck it.

Speaker 3 I think that they're going to try to get more favorable rules.

Speaker 3 I think basically they wanted Biden on the debate stage, and so they were happy to agree to whatever Biden wanted to get to get him on the debate stage.

Speaker 3 Now the situation is different and I don't know that they want the mute button and all that.

Speaker 3 So I think that there'll be another round of debating and negotiating and we probably end up with a debate around this some more time, maybe with some different moderators, but we will see how that turns out.

Speaker 3 Lastly, we didn't get to the couch with...

Speaker 3 with Jennifer, but if you've missed it, if you're offline, if you're offline, and God bless you, if you are, and this podcast is your lifeline into what's happening in the world, I just would recommend Googling J.D.

Speaker 3 Vance's couch this weekend and just giving yourself a little bit of injection of joy. Some troublemaker on the internet did a post about how J.D.

Speaker 3 Vance admitted in Hillbilly Elegy that he made love between couch cushions. That was not true.
We don't want to spread disinformation on this podcast. Not true.
But

Speaker 3 the joke spread like wildfire. There were some great memes out there.
It brought me a lot of joy. It brought me some chuckles.
We all deserve a little bit of joy.

Speaker 3 JD Vance, the way he demeans and mocks childless cat ladies, can probably take a little mocking on his own. And we can do it in good cheer with a clean conscience.
So,

Speaker 3 cheers to our Sophie King, J.D. Vance.
And we'll be back on Monday with Bill Crystal. Have a wonderful weekend.
We'll see you all then. Peace.

Speaker 3 I can barely lift my eyes. The Holy Ghost Ghost should hold your hand full

Speaker 3 with me.

Speaker 3 Perfect lost 50 jeans. But as it sounds, I need some more to drink.

Speaker 3 So if you ever need fun,

Speaker 3 someone to get along every time.

Speaker 3 Don't take another chance

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Speaker 3 I'm not the man for sin

Speaker 3 to be.

Speaker 3 But you're so fucking gorgeous.

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Speaker 3 I need my legs to influence.

Speaker 3 The common sense not fitting my

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Speaker 3 I know the look upon your face. I'm a disgrace, this happens all the time.

Speaker 3 So if you ever need to find

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Speaker 3 You're so fucking gorgeous.

Speaker 3 The Boer Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 3 This is Matt Rogers from Lost Culture Eastas with Matt Rogers Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture East with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.
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