Bill Kristol: Not Resigned to a Trump Presidency

Speaker 1 This is Matt Rogers from Lost Culturalists with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. Get ready for your next TV obsession, All's Fair.

Speaker 1 Starring Kim Kardashian, Naomi Watts, Nici Nash Betts, Tayana Taylor, with Sarah Paulson, and Glenn Close. A team of fierce female divorce attorneys leave a male-dominated firm to start their own.

Speaker 1 Filled with scandalous secrets and shifting allegiances both in the courtroom and within their own ranks, these ladies know that lawyers are a girl's best friend.

Speaker 1 Don't miss All's Fair, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers.

Speaker 2 Terms apply.

Speaker 6 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 9 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 12 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 15 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 7 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 11 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 16 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 7 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 19 Here's something good on women's health and longevity, a new podcast on iHeart. Join us for groundbreaking conversations with renowned medical experts.

Speaker 19 They'll share the latest breakthroughs, the good news about women's health, and the simple steps women can take to help them live healthier and happier every day.

Speaker 19 Be sure to listen to our episode, Pelvic Power, Strengthening Your Weight to Better Bladder Health, where we dive into the unique physical, emotional, and social challenges associated with heavy bladder leaks.

Speaker 19 This episode provides supportive guidance for managing heavier leaks with expert tips on pelvic floor strength and product fit.

Speaker 19 Brought to you by Always Discreet, offering products that can support you in your daily life and providing the comfort and protection you need to feel secure.

Speaker 19 Found at Walgreens, the women's well-being destination, supporting every stage.

Speaker 19 Listen to hear something good on women's health and longevity on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

Speaker 6 Get Ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 9 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 12 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 15 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 7 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 11 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 16 One thing's for sure: the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 7 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 2 Hello, and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
We're back. It's Monday.
We're with Bill Crystal.

Speaker 2 Before we get to Bill, I just want to provide some updates about things that we've learned since taping yesterday's weekend show with Sam Stein following the attempted assassination of Donald Trump.

Speaker 2 Regarding the shooter, first, we still don't know a whole lot. One classmate said that he was very conservative when they were discussing political issues in class.
Others said he was bullied.

Speaker 2 Several remembered that he was rejected from the school's rifle club for being a really bad shot and also making some concerning jokes.

Speaker 2 He wore a t-shirt of Demolition Ranch, a popular gun YouTube site to the event in Pennsylvania. He had explosives in his car, rudimentary explosives, authorities said.

Speaker 2 The weapon was purchased by his father. Still no known manifesto or motive.
Also, more evidence of security failures continue to pile up.

Speaker 2 There are videos of people shouting about the shooter for minutes while he's on the roof. A cop engaged him on the roof, but then backed off before he fired into the rally.

Speaker 2 We've also had an Oval Office address from the president. Trump gave an interview to Celina Zito.
And on top of all that, Judge Eileen Cannon has dismissed the documents cased in Florida. So,

Speaker 2 Bill Crystal,

Speaker 2 where do you want to start?

Speaker 20 I don't know. Black Despair or

Speaker 2 i think i wrote my piece today it was against despair so maybe we shouldn't we shouldn't start in despair yeah against despair let's not start at despair let's start here sam and i um you know we're discussing yesterday and i think spent a fair amount of the time in a measured way you know just talking about the overheated rhetoric that we have in our politics right now the apocalyptic rhetoric that we have and you know we discussed you know all the various people that are responsible for that including president trump as who's exacerbated it frankly in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2 I come today with another 24 hours of sleeping on it. And while I still think that's an important topic for everybody to self-reflect on, we still don't know anything.

Speaker 2 There's no real evidence, you know, based on what I just laid out there that this murderer was influenced by any of that. Like, we just don't actually know anything yet.

Speaker 2 And so, I do wonder kind of what you think about that whole, how

Speaker 2 that has really kind of dominated the fallout and that topic has dominated over the past 48 hours.

Speaker 20 Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.: Yeah, I mean, in a way, why shouldn't we assume as a first approximation, at least, that he's like one of these terrible school shooters, murderers, who are often disturbed and don't have, sometimes they have, I guess you could say, political attitudes, but mostly they don't seem to.

Speaker 20 So I very much agree that this notion that this tells us a one person, disturbed 20-year-old, about whom we have no evidence that he was particularly political or motivated by rhetoric of the extreme left or, for that matter, of the right of Trump.

Speaker 20 Why assume that this tells us that much about our political culture? I mean, having said that, obviously

Speaker 20 we have a lot of rhetoric floating around that shouldn't be. And obviously, the bulk of it is due to the right, not to the left, in this current moment in American politics.

Speaker 20 And the bulk of it is due to Donald J. Trump.

Speaker 20 I myself was reticent to sort of say this in our internal discussions, as you know,

Speaker 20 I think I was right. And we sort of all decided to be restrained yesterday and not to spend four hours after an assassination attempt against him.
And I'm glad he's well.

Speaker 20 And I'm very sorry that obviously someone at the rally died and two others are very badly injured. But I mean, I think it's wise to hold off for a bit in saying something, even if it's true.

Speaker 20 But the truth is, Donald J. Trump has been the main purveyor of extreme and violence-friendly rhetoric into the American mainstream.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there's something like kind of solopsistic about the media class, the media immediately going to, maybe this was about us, because maybe it was, who knows, like maybe it wasn't.

Speaker 2 There's still a lot we don't know. And that was something I tried to emphasize with Sam, but I just think I wanted to put a finer point on it today.

Speaker 2 I mean, to this question of rhetoric and responsibility, you know, I think that we can all say what is still true today, based on what we know, is

Speaker 2 that the apocalyptic rhetoric, the dehumanization of political opponents is out of control.

Speaker 2 And there are many, many, many people in public life for whom, you know, maybe a little reflection on that point is in order, including us and our colleagues at times.

Speaker 2 Trump, though, like put that on hyperdrive. Like this type of dehumanizing rhetoric and apocalyptic rhetoric, like was not really nearly as common in our political discourse in 2014 as it is now.

Speaker 2 And the killer may or may not have been impacted by any of that, right? Like all three of those things can be true. right?

Speaker 2 And I think that that's sometimes hard to say without, you know, you don't want to feel like you're not meeting the moment, right? Like not being appropriate for the conditions.

Speaker 2 But like those are all statements of fact as we sit here on Monday at 9.09 a.m.

Speaker 20 10.09 a.m. on the E of the East here for, you know, for, you know, 1009 a.m.

Speaker 20 corridor, the real time zone of America. You know, I have to insist on that.
No, you're absolutely right, obviously.

Speaker 20 And look, none of us has said that Donald Trump was in any way was responsible for this 20-year-old doing what he did. Maybe some people have.

Speaker 20 There's been some attempt to say that, but none of us knows that. And none of us at the bulwark, I don't believe, have said that.
But J.D.

Speaker 20 Vance took two hours before saying that this is due to the Biden campaign. Not even incidentally to some far-left types who undoubtedly are involved in incendiary rhetoric.

Speaker 20 Not that there's any reason to think this young man

Speaker 20 knew about them or anything, but the Biden campaign. I mean, how unbelievably irresponsible is that? And just to put a finer point on your fine point, I mean, Trump is not just another player in this.

Speaker 20 He's the nominee of one of our two hatred parties now for a third time. He was president of the United States for four years.

Speaker 20 The effect his violence-friendly, incendiary rhetoric has is just at a different scale than a random backbench member of Congress, a local radio talk show host, I mean, whatever. Those people

Speaker 20 should be held accountable for whatever he or she says, including us and including people in the media.

Speaker 20 But Trump is not just, you know, gee, there are like 14 people or 140 people in America who are kind of irresponsible. One of them just happens to be this guy, Donald J.
Trump.

Speaker 20 That is not the world we're living in. This guy spent four years as president of the United States in a way that no previous president in our time, or maybe any time, has done.

Speaker 20 And certainly in a way that no previous candidate in our time or any time, presidential candidate has done, in incredibly irresponsible and violence-adjacent, let's call it, rhetoric.

Speaker 20 So, I mean, I have no problem, as you say, saying two things. We don't blame Trump for what happened Saturday night, and I'm glad he's well and so forth.
Very sorry for what happened.

Speaker 20 But on the other hand, we need to tell the truth about his role in the last decade in American politics.

Speaker 2 You know, we've all been here before. This morning, Axius is out with a just absurd story.

Speaker 2 I don't really like to do media criticism on here, but like just a totally preposterous story about how Trump could unify America.

Speaker 2 And we're going to have a new Trump now that's based basically on nothing, I guess, except for that Trump told Celina Zito in an interview that he's rewriting his convention speech and he's planning to give a unifying speech.

Speaker 2 And I went back, we've all been through this so many times. And I wrote an article after the shooting in El Paso in 2019.
This was August of 2019. And

Speaker 2 if you don't remember, there was a mass murder at a Walmart in El Paso. 22 died.

Speaker 2 And, you know, there was a moment then where, you know, Kelly and Conway and people around Trump were talking about how this is not a moment to point fingers. This is a moment for unity.

Speaker 2 And we need to come together. You know, I wrote at the time, just all of these series of things.
So I was like, that's a great notion. If Donald Trump's going to do that, like, that's good.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Like, everybody should.

Speaker 2 should dial it back. But like

Speaker 2 these empty calls for unity from somebody that has been the leading cause of divisiveness without any acknowledgement of responsibility is just hollow. Like, it's just BS.

Speaker 2 And I listed all the things that he did, all of his incitements to violence in this article. We'll put it in the show notes.
But there were some, rereading it now, I didn't even remember.

Speaker 2 Like, apparently, he made a joke in Pensacola about people in the panhandle murdering immigrants. I had forgotten that.
Some guy shouted at him from the crowd, we should shoot the migrants.

Speaker 2 And Trump started laughing and saying, yeah, only in Pensacola can you get away with that?

Speaker 2 So, you know, when you say that he has engaged in some violent adjacent rhetoric, like pretty straight-on violent rhetoric, actually, he's engaged in.

Speaker 2 I mean, there are many other examples, but that was just one that struck me as I was scrolling through the article.

Speaker 20 I mean,

Speaker 20 if I recall correctly, the shooter in that horrible mass murder in El Paso had a manifesto that was, did not reference Trump, to my knowledge, but referenced certainly right-wing anti-immigrant

Speaker 20 theories and literary, you know, and literature, so if I can use that term loosely, the shooter at the synagogue in Pittsburgh, a year before that.

Speaker 20 Similarly, you know, so there is plenty of actual empirical evidence that stuff that is one tick to the right of Trump, two ticks maybe, one tick to the right of some of the Republicans in Congress, on the other hand, zero ticks to the right of some of the people speaking at the Republican Convention this week or moving in Republican circles, has led to mass violence.

Speaker 20 I mean, this is, so again, it's not as if, you know, gee, it's just this climate just kind of, you know, it's like climate change.

Speaker 20 It just happens, you know, and there's this bad climate in American politics. And some of that is true because of bigger socioeconomic trends and social media and all that.
I'll stipulate that.

Speaker 20 But an awful lot of it is due to one

Speaker 20 man

Speaker 20 and one movement, let's call it, or different parts of that movement.

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell, Jr.: It's always good to just reflect on this stuff and think about it.

Speaker 2 Like, what do you make of the criticism that if you say that there's going to be no more elections, if you say the dictatorship is coming, if you say that fascism is coming, then

Speaker 2 crazy people out there are going to feel like they need to take that into their own hands. And that maybe there's some reflection needed on that type of rhetoric coming from the left.

Speaker 2 What do you make of that critique?

Speaker 20 I think some reflection is always needed, especially

Speaker 20 when one's making a strong claim about a political opponent.

Speaker 20 I think a lot of us have reflected and tried to be clear when we say that, that we say pretty soon after the next sentence, that therefore we need to really mobilize peacefully and defeat him electorally in 2024, or we said the same thing in 2020 or in 2016.

Speaker 20 And indeed, there was not a whole lot of left-wing violence that I'm aware of after Donald Trump won in 2016.

Speaker 20 And he won the nomination this time, which puts him in, you know, with some reasonable chance of becoming the next president.

Speaker 20 And there weren't a lot of left-wingers saying, okay, to the streets to disrupt the Republican Convention.

Speaker 20 I mean, it's just, you can take one sentence and say, well, if you take this, you know, I suppose seriously, it could induce someone to violence. And I hope it doesn't.

Speaker 20 And we should all try to be careful that it doesn't and deplore it and tell people they shouldn't act violently. But we've all done that many times.
And again, just empirically.

Speaker 20 Where are the people acting violently because of Joe Biden's rhetoric?

Speaker 20 Who has cited Joe Biden as they went to a MAGA rally and, God forbid, tried to beat up someone or something like that, let alone shoot someone. It just, it hasn't happened.

Speaker 20 It hasn't happened because it's not actually an incitement to violence. And Trump's and the right-wing rhetoric that's adjacent to Trump is an incitement to violence.

Speaker 2 Part of the reason that nobody's responding that way to Joe Biden's rhetoric is the nature of Joe Biden's rhetoric. So he gave a speech last night in the Oval Office.

Speaker 2 You know, that was fine. It was okay.
He had a couple of stumbles, a really unfortunate one saying that we'd solve these things at the battle box. He said that twice at the sort of ballot box.

Speaker 2 The idea was fine. The rhetoric was fine.
I will say that, you know, when Sam and I were talking yesterday, you know, we were talking about how challenging of a moment this is for Democrats.

Speaker 2 And I do think it is challenging. Like, I think that they have to be critical and call out, as you wrote in the newsletter, these bad faith, absurd attacks from the right and the lies.

Speaker 2 And they have to continue to do that.

Speaker 2 But there is an obligation to reach out to any people in Red America that will reach back right and to signal that that you're trying to unify and they're actually putting effort to it that you're genuine about that and you know that's something that obama for all his flaws was pretty good at and that joe biden at one time was pretty good at and i don't know i'm not sure he really he really nailed that last night but what were your impressions i mean i thought the text of the speech is fine and and indeed

Speaker 20 admirable, really. He's just not up to giving it powerfully.

Speaker 20 And he's not up to convincing people, I think, that he can do this for four more years, and therefore he should step aside, as I've said over and over, and then I need to litigate that today.

Speaker 20 But I think that's the problem. It's not that he doesn't believe in unity and in decency, and it's not that he doesn't say those words and sentences.
you know, as he should. But you mentioned this.

Speaker 20 I mentioned this in this morning's letter. Many, many people have mentioned this.

Speaker 20 The contrast between him and Josh Shapiro, who spoke in Pennsylvania, the governor of Pennsylvania, who spoke yesterday as well, a few hours before President Biden, standing at a microphone, paying tribute to the man who was killed at the rally, making a call, his own call for unity in his state and in the nation.

Speaker 20 Just the contrast is so startling, you know. Let's listen to Shapiro.

Speaker 2 And I think this is just before we play it.

Speaker 2 One thing I wish I had thought of yesterday when we were talking about the podcast is like one idea to demonstrate this genuine commitment to unity, to putting out an olive branch, would be for the president, who has been a marvelous eulogizer at times, to offer to eulogize the man who was murdered at that rally.

Speaker 2 Now, maybe they wouldn't want President Biden there, maybe they wouldn't want to politicize the funeral or whatever, but making that offer or offering a pan to him, I think, would be a good first step.

Speaker 2 Here's how Josh Shapiro handled that off the cuff in a press conference.

Speaker 21 We lost a fellow Pennsylvanian last night,

Speaker 21 Corey

Speaker 22 Comperator.

Speaker 21 I just spoke to Corey's wife and Corey's two daughters.

Speaker 21 Corey was a girl dad.

Speaker 21 Corey was a firefighter. Corey went to church every Sunday.

Speaker 21 Corey loved his community.

Speaker 21 And most especially, Corey loved his family. Corey was an avid supporter of the former president.
and was so excited to be there last night with him in the community.

Speaker 21 I asked Corey's wife if it would be okay for me to share that we spoke. She said yes.

Speaker 21 She also asked that I share with all of you that Corey died a hero.

Speaker 21 That Corey dove on his family to protect them last night at this rally.

Speaker 21 Corey was the very best of us. May his memory be a blessing.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's pretty wonderful, you know, humanizing a political opponent,

Speaker 2 humanizing, and just speaking extemporaneously about

Speaker 2 there is no animus about the idea that this person loved President Trump, that that's good, like that's okay in America, that we can have political opponents who are passionate and, you know, we can disagree and we can be, you know, in the arena together and have it not be something that is violent or cruel or negative.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I think that the governor's remarks there were absolutely spot on and reflective of why he's so popular.

Speaker 20 No,

Speaker 20 I was moved by Governor Shapiro's remarks. I did think, as I happened to see it live, so I was watching TV then, leave aside Trump and Biden.

Speaker 20 But okay, you know, there are two political parties. One has a rising star, J.D.
Vance. The other has a rising star, Josh Shapiro.

Speaker 20 I am proud to be with Josh Shapiro as a human matter, not even just, as you say, as a kind of policy matter or because they have different views on tax policy or something like that.

Speaker 20 Josh Shapiro behaved there and stood up there like a decent human being and a good public servant. And J.D.

Speaker 20 Vance has behaved in the last 48 hours and unfortunately times before that as well, not as that.

Speaker 19 Here's something good on women's health and longevity, a new podcast on iHeart. Join us for groundbreaking conversations with renowned medical experts.

Speaker 19 They'll share the latest breakthroughs, the good news about women's health, and the simple steps women can take to help them live healthier and happier every day.

Speaker 19 Be sure to listen to our episode Pelvic Power, Strengthening Your Weight to Better Bladder Health, where we dive into the unique physical, emotional, and social challenges associated with heavy bladder leaks.

Speaker 19 This episode provides supportive guidance for managing heavier leaks with expert tips on pelvic floor strength and product fit.

Speaker 19 Brought to you by Always Discreet, offering products that can support you in your daily life and providing the comfort and protection you need to feel secure.

Speaker 19 Found at Walgreens, the women's well-being destination, supporting every stage.

Speaker 19 Listen to hear something good on women's health and longevity on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

Speaker 6 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 9 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 12 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 15 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 7 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 11 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 16 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 7 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 2 So I know that you said that

Speaker 2 we're not going to do the Biden step-aside thing for now, but I have one point that I want to make about this. Maybe I have two points, actually.
You know, it's my podcast.

Speaker 2 Here's my problem as it relates to the Trump question about pivoting to unity and like the Biden question about like whether Biden is up for this campaign.

Speaker 2 There's no parallels to me between those two men and how they act and what kind of leaders they are or policies.

Speaker 2 But like, in this one sense, there's this cable news environment that, like, I'm a cable news contributor, so I contribute to it, right? Where you have to analyze every moment, right?

Speaker 2 And you have to analyze, like, well, you know, was Trump's speech 10% more presidential than the speech before?

Speaker 2 And, you know, was Joe Biden's Oval Office address 10% more vigorous than the speech before? I think that myself and many people in America have come to a conclusion already about the men.

Speaker 2 And like they've been in public life for a very long time. And the conclusion about Donald Trump is that he is a cruel asshole that does not actually care about anybody besides himself.

Speaker 2 And so if he does a good job pretending to for a day or two, that's nice. But like we shouldn't, that shouldn't change your views of him as a person fundamentally.

Speaker 2 And I feel kind of the same way about the Biden age question.

Speaker 2 It's like, if you've demonstrated that you can't do the job of standing toe-to-toe with Trump in this crucial election, then it's kind of like, what does it matter?

Speaker 2 Like whether you're a little bit better, a little bit worse day to day. The microscopic analyzing of this stuff seems to kind of miss the forest for the trees for me a little bit.

Speaker 20 Totally agree. I mean, and look, I saw Biden what he spoke three times this weekend.
I agreed with his sentiments and applaud his sentiments really each time. But he's not the best opponent to Trump.

Speaker 20 He's not the best spokesman for his party. He's not the best spokesman for the broader cause, I'd say, at this point.
And not only only not the best, but he's a very halting one.

Speaker 2 This is the frustrating thing. There's this Axios story

Speaker 2 some blind senior Democrat. I've got some people in my mentions when I tweeted this, some progressive folks, some pro-Biden folks saying, this is fake news.

Speaker 2 I'm like, whoa, that sounds a little familiar. Let me tell you, if an Axios reporter quotes a senior Democrat, it's a senior Democrat.
I've had a lot of complaints with Axios.

Speaker 2 Their article today about Trump is absurd, but they don't do fake quotes.

Speaker 2 A senior Democrat saying that they have come to terms terms with Trump, basically echoing what Ezra Klein said on this podcast last week.

Speaker 2 And I find that so outrageous and so offensive and pathetic and embarrassing. I understand the sentiment of feeling like after that debate and after

Speaker 2 Donald Trump and having this iconic image of him like holding his fist up in the air with a bloody ear that like it might feel that we are in an inexorable path to Trump 2.0. Like we're not.

Speaker 2 There's three and a half months left. Donald Trump still has a lot of flaws.
There's not a reason to not like Donald Trump.

Speaker 2 A lot of people out there still do not prefer him as the president if you gave them an alternative.

Speaker 2 And like this notion that we now, because of what happened last weekend, have to just silently continue down a path to defeat with somebody that nobody in private on the Democratic side thinks can win is absurd.

Speaker 2 Like we're in unprecedented times. We had a man with Hussein as his middle name become the first black president, and then a reality show host become a president.

Speaker 2 Like, why not try to mix it up and offer somebody that could speak like Josh Shapiro does to our better angels and maybe offer a refreshing change?

Speaker 2 Anyway, that's my Joe Biden. Anyway, I agree.

Speaker 20 I mean,

Speaker 20 it's an uphill struggle, but that just means you struggle hard and maybe struggle with...

Speaker 20 some new in some new ways you rethink some of the people you've been using in your if i can put it that way who've been leading you in the struggle or whatever whatever.

Speaker 20 But absolutely, it's pathetic. And I don't know who the senior House Democrat is, but I agree with you.

Speaker 20 It's a real quote and a very distressing one. You know, interestingly, I haven't seen any polling on this, and it doesn't take a while, obviously, for everything to settle in.

Speaker 20 What happened Saturday night? But Liam Kerr, our friend who runs the Welcome Party, Bullwork contributor at various times, they happened to be in the field with a big poll, actually.

Speaker 20 doing attitudes and all kinds of other things. And they asked the matchup question to Trump Biden.

Speaker 20 And so they sorted out people who they had talked to Sunday after Sunday evening after the Saturday night assassination attempt as opposed to Thursday and Friday before.

Speaker 20 And there was a change of one point in the matchup. And Trump's approval went up about three points and Biden's approval went up two or three points.

Speaker 20 So there's a little bit of a rally to the, you know, to both of them.

Speaker 20 And so I don't buy the argument that, I mean, we all, people joked, I suppose, privately, oh my God, after that, you know, iconic photograph and all, Trump's going to be unbeatable.

Speaker 20 But I think that's not true. You and I have been pretty honest, I think, in saying that Trump's ahead and it's going to be uphill to beat him.

Speaker 20 But that's very different from saying we have a 20 or 30 or 40% chance of winning to saying we're resigned to a Trump presidency. It's so unbelievably irresponsible.
And it doesn't matter.

Speaker 20 I suppose some Democrat says it on background to Axios, but it is demoralizing.

Speaker 20 And I don't know how many people out there read that and don't do something they were thinking of doing to try to help win a state for the Democratic nominee.

Speaker 2 But anyway, well, it matters because, like, let's have some creativity.

Speaker 20 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Let's try. Can we try to try? Can we try? That's what my problem is.
Like, I refuse to just sit here and

Speaker 2 like not comment on a party that wants to just go on with business as usual in the face of Trump very, you know, likely being a clear favorite to ascend to the presidency again, like to be elected to the presidency.

Speaker 2 It is absurd. It is ridiculous to say that, to be like, let's just sit around and do nothing or let's just keep on with business as usual.
And I said this to the Biden folks.

Speaker 2 And before all of this craziness happened, it would have been something we talked about in this podcast because on Friday, Biden did at least say, do a lot of things that we've been begging him to do, right?

Speaker 2 Which was deliver a contrast message against Trump, you know, in a speech in Michigan Friday.

Speaker 2 So, okay, like, even if it's Biden, you know, reassessing, changing, you know, being open to creative ideas, right?

Speaker 2 Like, I do not want to hear from anybody like, oh, that would only happen in the West Wing. Like, we can't do that.

Speaker 2 Biden can't offer to have a joint eulogy for the man that was murdered at the rally because that stuff only happens in the West Wing.

Speaker 2 We're living through a time that only happens in the fucking West Wing.

Speaker 2 We're living in crazy times. Like,

Speaker 2 let's try to be a little more creative and thinking and optimistic and try to change the tone and tenor of this campaign a little bit.

Speaker 20 No, absolutely. Very well said.
Totally agree. You know, the West Wing thing is also annoying.
And I mean, liberalism, back when I was young, was too utopian, sort of fuzzy-minded, wishful.

Speaker 20 Maybe we thought it was, at least, to be conservatives, neoconservatives. And that was kind of annoying at times.
You know, everything was judged. Incremental progress wasn't good enough.

Speaker 20 We have to transform the world overnight. We have to wish that communism goes away instead of standing up to it and going through the slog of the Cold War, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 20 Now it's flipped to the total opposite. Now, if you say, you know what, we could actually defeat someone who really is a threat to democracy, we could actually achieve something.

Speaker 20 Oh, that's you're living in the West Wing. That's even worse, in a way, that kind of fatalistic, cynical liberalism, I think, than the earlier, more somewhat utopian and naive liberalism.

Speaker 2 Okay, I want to talk about the RNC Convention and Eileen Canada, but any other final thoughts on what Democrats can and should be doing right now?

Speaker 20 I just think having the attitude that you expressed very well, that it's very important to win, it's possible to win, and we have to be imaginative and bold and doing what we need to do, obviously within the law and within peace and so forth, to win.

Speaker 20 And you know what?

Speaker 20 Joe Biden stepping aside in favor of Josh Shapiro or Vice President Harris or Gretchen Whitmer, that's entirely within the law and peaceful and exactly what a responsible party should try to pull off.

Speaker 2 And maybe refreshing. I do think that there's a lot of people out there who

Speaker 2 want to move on from this era. There was another blind Democratic quote that said that.
That's like, might we consider that?

Speaker 2 That like that people are really just, and maybe that's unfair to President Biden, but are really sick of this era.

Speaker 2 Like, why are we still here, you know, having these kind of this type of political violence, this type of rhetoric, this type of extraordinary events?

Speaker 2 You know, could maybe somebody that offered a more calm page turn be something that's appealing? I don't know. It seems like it to me.

Speaker 19 Here's something good on women's health and longevity. A new podcast on iHeart.
Join us for groundbreaking conversations with renowned medical experts.

Speaker 19 They'll share the latest breakthroughs, the good news about women's health, and the simple steps women can take to help them live healthier and happier every day.

Speaker 19 Be sure to listen to our episode Pelvic Power, Strengthening Your Weight to Better Bladder Health, where we dive into the unique physical, emotional, and social challenges associated with heavy bladder leaks.

Speaker 19 This episode provides supportive guidance for managing heavier leaks with expert tips on pelvic floor strength and product fit.

Speaker 19 Brought to you by Always Discreet, offering products that can support you in your daily life and providing the comfort and protection you need to feel secure.

Speaker 19 Found at Walgreens, the women's well-being destination, supporting every stage.

Speaker 19 Listen to hear something good on women's health and longevity on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

Speaker 6 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 9 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 12 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 15 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 7 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 11 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 16 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 7 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 2 Okay, do you want to do the convention first or Eileen Cannon? Which one do you have broader thoughts on?

Speaker 20 Cannon just broke like five minutes before the show, so I have no thoughts?

Speaker 2 Okay, give me one minute on Eileen Cannon.

Speaker 20 I mean, this was a theory she seems to have embraced that the special prosecutor is not

Speaker 20 correctly appointed that I think was regarded by everyone as an utter fringe theory. In any case, the Supreme Court has never gone in that direction.

Speaker 20 Quite the contrary, since it's, it's, as we speak, is hearing cases from special prosecutors, right?

Speaker 20 I mean, so a district judge has decided to reinvent a very big issue of separation of powers and constitutional law against all the appellate courts and the Supreme Court because she wants to help Trump.

Speaker 20 I mean, that's Trump's America, though. I do think it's a very useful wake-up call.
This is what Trump will appoint many, many more Eileen Cannons.

Speaker 20 And people will be talking about the rule of law and the guardrails of the judiciary. And guess what?

Speaker 20 Those guardrails don't hold, and the rule of law doesn't hold if the judiciary is full of Eileen Cannons.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's another

Speaker 2 maddening part about the let's just come to terms with a Trump win because it's not even just four years, right?

Speaker 2 Like you appoint Eileen Cannon's going to be there forever until she gets impeached in 2042 by President AOC or whatever. All right, the convention.

Speaker 2 So I guess I'll just say, if it is true, that they're changing all the speeches to tone it down, I think that is both politically savvy and wise and good for the country.

Speaker 2 I think it's politically savvy and wise for Republicans because I do think they risk a boomerang effect if there's too much bloody shirt waving and too much craziness.

Speaker 2 I do think that there's a category of Americans that have rallied to the president's side after the attempted assassination, but I think there is a big middle that

Speaker 2 doesn't want crazy unrest and threats to violence or any of that sort of stuff. And so hopefully they do that.

Speaker 2 I'm not really crossing my fingers that they can control everybody that speaks at this convention and that people won't want to try to turn the rhetoric up. But I don't know.

Speaker 2 What's your sense for what they will do, should do?

Speaker 20 I think they can do this if they want. They can pretty much control what people say to a pretty considerable extent.

Speaker 20 And obviously, what people remember is what Trump says and maybe one or two other high-profile speakers, not what everyone else says. So I hope they do for the sake of the country.

Speaker 20 I think it's unfortunately unfortunately probably helps Trump a little bit, though it fades away also, to be honest. For me, the VP pick, and I'm very curious to hear your thoughts on this,

Speaker 20 is key, though, right? I mean,

Speaker 20 that's the biggest thing that will come out of the convention, maybe apart from Trump's own speech. And that can go in one of two directions.

Speaker 20 J.D. Vance, literally the guy who said the single most irresponsible thing that was said, I believe, on Saturday night, seems to be a frontrunner.

Speaker 20 The other candidates are not people we love by any means, but are at least on the side of, I think, a somewhat less incendiary message from the Republican Party and from the Republican ticket this fall.

Speaker 20 So what do you think? Who does Trump pick?

Speaker 2 I mean, I've thought it was JD the whole time. You know, I do think there's two ways to look at it if you're Trump, though, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, I think that I saw a MAGA account say this, so this is their words, but they were like, I think that Trump needs to consider assassination insurance more for who the VP is.

Speaker 2 That it would be somebody that would continue the MAGA,

Speaker 2 you know, carry the MAGA mantle forward, macabre, and, and, but possible, something that goes through their minds, right? You have to think about, you know, where things go post-Trump.

Speaker 2 The other way to look at it is that maybe this is a time for rethinking.

Speaker 2 And if Trump buys the same narrative that even the senior House Democrat buys, that he's on a glide path to victory and he just doesn't have to, and he should just not

Speaker 2 rock the boat too much. And maybe that causes a rethinking, right? And he wants to choose somebody that feels safe and feels

Speaker 2 unifying to whatever that means, really.

Speaker 2 So, you know, to me, that is probably Bergham, right? If that's the path that you go, or somebody else that hasn't really been talked about that much lately, like a Tim Scott. So I don't know.

Speaker 2 To me, it still feels like it's JD, but I wouldn't put any money on it.

Speaker 20 I've been slightly on the side that it will be a Tim Scott, Bergham type.

Speaker 20 I I don't know if Tom Cotton quite fits in that category, but I think he's a little harsher than they are, but respectable, still on the respectable voter to certify the election in 2020 side of things, as opposed to Vance.

Speaker 20 So I guess I thought for a while that Trump might go that direction, obviously, pre-assassination attempt.

Speaker 20 Maybe he's more inclined to go that way now, but maybe he also doesn't think he needs to go that way now. So I could argue that either way.

Speaker 20 I think Vance would be ⁇ Vance would undercut all the unity

Speaker 20 bullshit, if I could be honest, right? Don't you think? I mean, you're putting him number two

Speaker 20 to the president of the United States after this, you know, this latest demonstration, something that's been a pattern now for quite a while.

Speaker 2 But I'm of the view that the unity stuff is BS. You know, Caputo wrote about this this morning, and based on his sources, you know, a lot of people around Trump liked what J.D.

Speaker 2 Vance was saying, obviously, right? Because they are filled with vengeance and they, you know, are mad. You've never lost betting on

Speaker 2 these people doing the least honorable thing.

Speaker 2 So I'm going with J.D. Vance.
We'll see next Monday. He's right.
Another thing to watch out for in this speech, I think, that they're going to use is just one example of this from Dace,

Speaker 2 Steve Dace, who's this

Speaker 2 Iowa radio talk show host. It was a Christian conservative, turned MAGA, once admitted that he had a serial masturbation problem that he was dealing with that he got over.

Speaker 2 And so we're proud of him for that. He wrote this: The original plan this weekend was to sentence Trump.
But when that didn't work out, they decided just to try shooting him instead.

Speaker 2 And so I have like a new they rule for this week, and I think it will be interesting to see how much of that we see at the convention, which is they are out to get Trump. They tried to stop him.

Speaker 2 He couldn't, right? This, that there's some shadowy conspiracy to go after Trump rather than the fact that Trump is a criminal that committed crimes and a crazed shooter went after him.

Speaker 2 That there's some web that ties it all together. And I just, I think that that's going to be too irresistible for them not to, not to try to employ this week.

Speaker 20 Yeah, and I suppose what's implied is that that they is headed up by Joe Biden or at least acquiesced in or by Joe Biden, right?

Speaker 20 And so what we are accusing the president of the United States of orchestrating an attempted assassination of his rival, that's, yeah, you're right.

Speaker 20 How many other people at this convention are going to be saying things like that?

Speaker 20 Certainly, they're certainly not going to ever denounce anything like that, God forbid, which, you know, you and I are old enough.

Speaker 20 Well, I'm old enough, you're almost old enough to remember Bob Dole in 1996 telling delegates who,

Speaker 20 Buchanan delegates who believed in racism and nativism, that the exits were over there and they should feel free to leave. I mean, Dole didn't win in 96, so I suppose people can say, see,

Speaker 20 but I mean, you know what? That was a party that it was okay to be part of.

Speaker 2 Indeed. All right, speaking of who's going to be there, I have one more clip for you.

Speaker 2 This guy, Mark Robinson, I just think this is important to listen to as we think about the context of the overheated rhetoric in our political culture right now.

Speaker 2 Here is Mark Robinson, the Republican gubernatorial candidate in North Carolina, the other day. He will be speaking in Milwaukee this week.

Speaker 23 You know, it was a time when we used to meet evil on the battlefield, and guess what we did to it? We killed it.

Speaker 23 We didn't quibble about it. We didn't argue about it.
We didn't fight about it. We killed it.

Speaker 23 Some liberal somewhere is going to say that sounds awful. Too bad.

Speaker 23 Get mad at me if you want to. Some folks need killing.

Speaker 23 It's time for somebody to say it.

Speaker 23 It's not a matter of vengeance. It's not a matter of being mean or spiteful.

Speaker 23 It's a matter of necessity.

Speaker 23 It's time to call out those guys in green and go have them handled.

Speaker 2 You one of those liberals that is not happy about a candidate for governor saying that some people need killing?

Speaker 20 I mean, can we just pause for one second?

Speaker 20 He is the candidate for governor of the Republican Party in a major state, North Carolina. He's endorsed, I believe, by every Republican from Trump on down through other governors.

Speaker 20 The Republican guy, I haven't seen a statement, maybe I missed it from the Republican Governors Association saying we can't support this person.

Speaker 2 Oh, no, they're with him.

Speaker 20 They're with him. I haven't seen a statement from any senators, members of Congress, Republicans.
I mean, so it's perfectly fair and it's true, right?

Speaker 20 I mean, you can say, well, there's one governor there, 25 different Republican

Speaker 20 Republican governor candidates, but fine. Let one of them say he shouldn't be.
Republicans in North Carolina shouldn't support him.

Speaker 20 Republicans from out of state shouldn't help him, support him financially. And let someone say he shouldn't be speaking at the Republican convention, which he's currently scheduled to do.

Speaker 20 So I think it really brings home, yes, the degree to which not every single Republican is going to sound like that at the Republican convention, but none of them is going to denounce other Republicans who sound like that.

Speaker 24 Yeah, pretty sick stuff.

Speaker 2 Okay, Bill,

Speaker 2 any historical thoughts? Me and Sam were talking about 1968 on yesterday's pod, but neither of us were around then. And so, you know, you, I guess, were you not in the Reagan administration yet when

Speaker 2 he was an assassination attempt victim?

Speaker 20 No, I didn't come till I remember that so well.

Speaker 20 I mean, and I remember because it came after, you know, all those years years of 63 with President Kennedy, 68 with Reverend King and Bobby Kennedy, 72 with George Wallace, 75, the luckily totally not, you know, hapless attempts against Gerald Ford.

Speaker 20 And then 81, so one thought, oh my god, every five years we're just going to have an assassination.

Speaker 20 Incidentally, in 81, there was the attempt, 80, I can remember, the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II.

Speaker 20 There's a Thatcher, Margaret Thatcher, they blew up that hotel that she was staying in with part of it with her cabinet, the IRA. And you just thought, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 20 I mean, it's 15 years of violence. Can democracies survive that? And then there was this period, a lot of violence, horrible school shootings.
I don't have to minimize any of that, but

Speaker 20 less political violence or less political violence at the presidential level in the U.S., certainly. And I would say in the other major democracies, too, probably.

Speaker 20 And so one thought we were beyond it. And I did have a moment Saturday night of thinking, oh my God, are we going to go back through another decade now of this? I don't know if we will or not.

Speaker 20 And maybe this is a, I hope it's not. I hope we don't.
But you know what? We're more likely to, if, honestly, if we have an awful lot of people saying incendiary things. So I hope this is a one-off.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I really hope we don't too. And this is why, and I said this yesterday, I just want to reiterate it again.
I really get upset at the

Speaker 2 people in my mentions. You're getting blocked and muted if you make jokes about how you wish like that shooter had been successful because he was one.

Speaker 2 Really, it looks like had Trump not turned his head to look at the Jumbotron or whatever he's looking at that had the chart on it that he was referencing, that he probably would have died.

Speaker 2 I've looked at several of the kind of diagrams of the angle of the bullet, and because he had turned his head, he survived. And

Speaker 2 when you think about that era that you just went through and the political violence, it just, I mean, it feels like an assassination attempt would have, and obviously, we've been told, you know, you don't want anybody to die.

Speaker 2 It would have been horrible for Trump to be killed. But also, too,

Speaker 2 you know, the following,

Speaker 2 like what would come after, right? Like that period that you're referring to with the series of assassinations, right?

Speaker 2 Like, we would have been in such a fraught time for it to happen right before the convention. I mean, it should have been an unbelievably dangerous moment in America.

Speaker 2 That is one area where everyone needs to make sure they have cooler heads. Like, that's not acceptable kind of rhetoric.

Speaker 2 The other history thing that I learned this week, Bill, that just hadn't occurred to me is there was an assassination attempt on

Speaker 2 the president every 20 years

Speaker 2 from like 1900 or maybe even 1880, and the streak broke with W, right?

Speaker 2 So, like, that does tell you something a little bit about, like, because in my time, my era, I grew up in this time that you're referencing, where like, we really haven't had political violence.

Speaker 2 Like, we've had a lot of violence. We had school shootings, other types of violence.
We haven't had political violence. But to think about it in that context, you know, speaks a lot to

Speaker 2 what American life has been.

Speaker 2 Any final brave words for us on political assassinations and violence?

Speaker 20 Look, it's wonderful that Trump turned his head, honestly, and that he missed. It's terrible that

Speaker 20 a gentleman was killed who behaved so heroically and two others wounded,

Speaker 20 and just generally to have this specter return.

Speaker 20 But

Speaker 20 let's very much

Speaker 20 that's something everyone can unite in denouncing this violence.

Speaker 20 And I think it's very good that really almost all of President Trump's opponents, and it didn't matter whether they were left-wing Democrats or centrist Democrats, right, have said this is terrible.

Speaker 20 is terrible. Violence must be repudiated.
So let's hope that sticks across the political spectrum.

Speaker 20 And frankly, I do hope that some people at that Republican convention take a look at their own rhetoric and their own associations and maybe say a word or two about how violence against anyone on all sides is unacceptable.

Speaker 2 Amen to that. Bill Crystal.
We'll see you next Monday and see whose instincts were right on the vice presidential pick.

Speaker 2 We'll be back here tomorrow with a reaction to the first night of the RNC convention and President Biden's interview with Lester Holt. We'll see you all then.
Peace.

Speaker 2 Another

Speaker 2 head hangs lowly, tiredly, slowly taken.

Speaker 2 And the violence causes such silence.

Speaker 2 Who are

Speaker 2 we must take in?

Speaker 2 Many you see, it's not me,

Speaker 2 it's not my family.

Speaker 2 In your head, in your head,

Speaker 2 they are fighting

Speaker 2 with their tanks and their bombs, and their bombs and their guns.

Speaker 2 In your head, in your head,

Speaker 2 and I cry

Speaker 2 in your head,

Speaker 2 in your head.

Speaker 2 Some it,

Speaker 2 some it, Sammy, eh, eh?

Speaker 2 What's in your head?

Speaker 2 In your head,

Speaker 2 Tommy, Tommy, Tommy,

Speaker 2 The Bullark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 25 Mothers, fathers, children, friends, gun violence affects us all. Every day in America, 125 people are shot and killed.

Speaker 25 But behind every statistic is a story, a child who never made it to their next birthday, a parent who will never walk through the front door again, a survivor who carries invisible scars.

Speaker 25 At every Town for Gun Safety Action Fund, we believe in a different future, one where kids can learn without fear, where we can enjoy the movies or a concert without looking for the nearest exit, where common sense gun laws protect lives.

Speaker 25 We are a movement of nearly 11 million Americans, moms, students, veterans, survivors standing together to end gun violence.

Speaker 25 We've helped pass life-saving laws in states across the country, and we're just getting started. But we can't do it alone.
Your support powers this movement.

Speaker 25 It fuels our advocacy and grassroots action, and it saves lives. If you believe in a safer future, go to everytown.org and donate today.

Speaker 25 That's everytown.org, because together we can build a future free from gun violence.

Speaker 26 Con la potencia resistencia de las Toyota trucks, puedes y gara lugaris más enclaines. Como este balle en el que le co tiene distintas doses.

Speaker 20 Hola! Hola! Hola!

Speaker 26 Hola!

Speaker 27 Sabemos del que estamos echos, Toyota trucks.

Speaker 24 You want to get the kids something different this year for the holidays, right? Well, no matter what you get them, you should power the toys with something that's definitely different.

Speaker 24 Duracell batteries with power boost ingredients.

Speaker 24 They're unlike any other battery, so to make sure Christmas morning goes great, get only Duracell batteries with power boost ingredients.

Speaker 24 Whoa, does that happen every time I say Duracell with power boost ingredients?

Speaker 24 Nice!

Speaker 27 Try it with me, Duracell with power boost ingredients.

Speaker 20 Yes.