Bill Kristol: Tuberville's Policy Is the Same as Trump's

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Speaker 12 Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
It's Monday, June 10th.

Speaker 12 It's Portugal Day, actually, and I'm coming at you live from Portugal. We have a lot of European news to discuss, so I'm glad to have Bill Crystal with me to do it.
Hey, Bill, what's up?

Speaker 12 Everything's fine. Looking forward to your detailed analysis of the breakdown of the Portuguese vote, red Portugal, blue Portugal, this important EU elections.

Speaker 12 We can spend 20, 30 minutes on that, I think, don't you think? About all I have for you is a billboard count.

Speaker 12 I can break down, you know, whether the far-right party or the socialists or the main party is doing better on their billboards. But besides that, I don't have a lot of detailed analysis yet.

Speaker 12 Biden was over here. As well, we talked about this a bunch last week.
I have to mention, since you mentioned it last week, that you wanted Biden to

Speaker 12 use the D-Day anniversary to contrast with Trump.

Speaker 12 He didn't really do it explicitly, and yet implicitly, everyone picked up on the fact that he was contrasting with Trump, and Eric Erickson still threw himself on the ground and said, oh, this is norm-breaking.

Speaker 12 So anyway, I'm wondering what you thought about the framing of Biden's events at D-Day, and then he went to Pointe Duhawk and elsewhere.

Speaker 12 No, I thought it was a good trip, an appropriate trip for an American president. And he left it to others, as I guess he had to, to make the contrast explicitly.

Speaker 12 I hope others have made and continue to make that contrast.

Speaker 12 As always, with the Biden campaign, there's a little bit of a sense that they do one pretty good ad and get a few people to say a couple of things on a Sunday show, and then it goes away.

Speaker 12 And maybe that's just the way it is.

Speaker 12 It's one trip. The contrast with Trump is something he did, what, five, six years ago.
And maybe people aren't going to dwell on it.

Speaker 12 too long over the next few days, but I'd like it to have some lasting effect.

Speaker 12 And the most striking thing, as you say, was the react, all the Trump people, not even Trump people, Republicans, quote, conservatives, reacting. Biden says we need to defend democracy.

Speaker 12 They died and fought and died for democracy and freedom. We need to live up to their standard and honor their, not just honor them, but take, recommit ourselves to their cause.

Speaker 12 And all the Trump people took that as an attack on Trump, which is very revealing, right? Yes.

Speaker 12 It's like anytime you dictate an ode to American values or to human values or into morals, people are like, wait a minute, is that an attack on Trump? You remember the funeral?

Speaker 12 It was the John McCain funeral, where it was like only Megan actually talked about Trump, but everyone else was like, talked about John McCain's heroism and his patriotism and the way he cared about democracy.

Speaker 12 And people are like, why is Trump getting attacked at a funeral? And it's like, what are you talking about? Let's actually listen to Biden when he's asked about Trump while he's over there.

Speaker 14 The idea that I come to Normandy and not make this short trip here to pay tribute. And it's the same story.
Think about it.

Speaker 14 America showed up. America showed up

Speaker 14 to stop the Germans. America showed up to make sure that they did not prevail.
And America shows up when we need it, just like our allies show for us.

Speaker 12 You've criticized President Trump for not coming here on his trip. What message are you hoping to send to voters by being here right now?

Speaker 14 Any other questions? Mr.

Speaker 12 President, you want to be in the most memorable part of it.

Speaker 12 It's like,

Speaker 12 did you not get the message, Jack?

Speaker 12 It was like, that's what I was saying. But anyway, any additional thoughts on the Biden contrast there?

Speaker 12 If I were President Biden, I might have had one sentence there about I think any American president should come pay respects here.

Speaker 12 And that incidentally was at Ain Marn, however, you pronounced that near Bellow Wood, which was the 1918 American Cemetery, which Trump did not go to because it was too much trouble, even though many other world leaders went in 1918 to the World War I commemoration, the 100th anniversary then.

Speaker 12 And even though, and that's the occasion also of his famous remarks

Speaker 12 to John Kelly reported. So again, could the Biden campaign have persuaded John Kelly to give an interview to someone over the weekend? Maybe not.

Speaker 12 Maybe he's just sitting it out, but I don't get the impression they tried. You know, I think there's just a little more they could do to bring home how bad Trump is on this, as on other things.

Speaker 12 Yeah, that was the one where it was raining. He was worried about his hair.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 12 Well, you know, only a sucker or a loser would, you know, go out in the rain to celebrate people that gave their lives for freedom. Lots else happening over here in Europe.

Speaker 12 We had the EU elections over the weekend. The far-right did very well, particularly in France.
As a result, Macrone called for snap elections.

Speaker 12 I'm not a French political expert, but it seems like he wants to

Speaker 12 solidify the fact that his coalition has a majority in the French Assembly. These were the EU elections, and

Speaker 12 rather than succumb to whatever, this perceived momentum, real momentum really, in some elections on the far right.

Speaker 12 Kind of a risky decision based on some of the analysis, people smarter than me on this.

Speaker 12 We also also have the UK elections coming up just about a week from that, those French elections, and we have the Trump-Biden debate a week prior to that. So a lively end of June, early July.

Speaker 12 Not going to be

Speaker 12 the sleepy summer months here on politics. Any kind of grand thoughts on that run that we're going to have? I think it's going to be important in various ways.

Speaker 12 I know the UK elections, Labor will crush the Tories.

Speaker 12 I wonder if they do it so badly that the Conservatives almost fall into third place and you get a new party on the right from from more right-wing Farage type party.

Speaker 12 But anyway, that's a pretty astonishing lead they have after

Speaker 12 the Conservatives deserve it after more than a decade of terrible governance. So maybe that's a heartening thing.
Macron's taking a gamble.

Speaker 12 I mean, he thinks that when people, I think, face up to the choice and they have that runoff situation. So it gets to be a Macron-type candidate versus a Le Pen-type candidate.
They win.

Speaker 12 He could end up with a very right-wing prime minister, that 28-year-old, for two or three years.

Speaker 12 Luckily, the president in France has most of the power, but I don't know if that'll be a bit of a war, you know, wake-up call or the opposite.

Speaker 12 Some friends of mine here think the elections weren't quite as bad as the media is making it. I mean, the actual movement of vote was a few percentage points in a lot of places, not massive.

Speaker 12 You know, there were, I think, France and Germany were among the worst places.

Speaker 12 But having said that, it was in that direction.

Speaker 12 And, you know, about a quarter of the vote, basically, in these EU parliamentary elections is to far-right parties, which is kind of not that different from the U.S.

Speaker 12 probably if we had a parliamentary system, right? MAGA is about a quarter of the country. Maybe a third.
A quarter, a third is a lot.

Speaker 12 It's too much, but it's manageable, but not so manageable in our political system.

Speaker 12 Yeah, I think maybe some of the media, self-included here, concern and dramatization of what happened in those elections is just the nature of the parties that are doing better, right?

Speaker 12 I mean, it's not as if, you know, it's not your daddy's center-right parties. It's not Cameron and Merkel that are doing well here, you know, across the board in Europe.

Speaker 12 And, you know, Germany, you mentioned AFD improves I think you've got Elon Musk who runs the biggest maybe not the biggest but one of the biggest media platforms uh in the world you know putting out as a result like I don't see what's so bad about AFD I look at their look at their platform and they might be you know the inheritors of the far-right Nazis but I see them as kind of a centrist reasonable common sense party there's concerns just about this growing momentum like globally on the populist right I think another alternate way to look at this is inflation caused like we're kind of in an anti-incumbent moment, right?

Speaker 12 Like you see the Liberals doing well in the UK. It's Olaf Schultz and Macron that are being pushed back against by the far right in Europe.
Both of those things could be true, right?

Speaker 12 We're at an anti-incumbent moment and there's a worrying amount of power growing on the far right. One place where the incumbent did not struggle was Hungary, for example.
Orban's party did well.

Speaker 12 So I don't know. How do you kind of assess all that? Yeah, I think both are true.
It is amazing how many incumbent parties, some of them right-wing, have lost elections in the last three, four years.

Speaker 12 That's not maybe a great sign for Biden. But the degree to which the authoritarian right is an international movement with serious money behind it, serious institutions behind it, like Twitter.

Speaker 12 I mean, major media platforms behind it, business people either behind it or accommodating to it. I think this is a good reminder of that.

Speaker 12 There's just always that tendency to treat it as this fringe, weirdo thing that popped up in the last few years. It's going to fade away, and the old establishment is going to to hold on.

Speaker 12 As you pointed out, what's now, what, three years ago, that very important piece, there's a MAGA establishment, there's an international MA establishment, and it's big and strong.

Speaker 12 And it's not entirely stupid either, unfortunately. You know, they have some pretty capable operatives exploiting issues and being demagogic and so forth.
So in that respect, I think

Speaker 12 it continues the worrisome trend that we've seen. Yeah, we talked last week about that new Republic piece on the WhatsApp chain of the international MAGA establishment.

Speaker 12 And, you know, it's Eric Prince and it's Tucker Carlson and it's these

Speaker 12 operatives in Eastern Europe and they're organizing. This is not just a bunch of clowns.
All right.

Speaker 12 Like this is that they're organizing and they're trying to win and they are winning in certain places. And

Speaker 12 they have won in Slovakia and Hungary and now in Western countries are getting a foothold. Those are Western countries too, but in Western Europe, they're getting a foothold.

Speaker 12 Elon Musk embracing A, which I hadn't really paid that much attention to, is so revealing. There are no guardrails.
There are are no barriers on the right.

Speaker 12 There's no, I mean, Buckley and the Burch Society is maybe overdone, and he wasn't maybe quite as good as people say, but whatever. There were actual guardrails.

Speaker 12 We all were against Buchanan and, you know, worked hard against him in the 90s, against Ron Paul in the 2000s, etc. No guardrails.
The AFD is a neo-Nazi party. I mean, let's not kid ourselves.

Speaker 12 And that Elon Musk is okay with it, and others are okay with him being okay with it.

Speaker 12 And then the regular business types are okay with Elon Musk, and they're all having fundraisers together in San Francisco.

Speaker 12 Some of them, I mean, yeah, that part of it is it's not just that everyone's moved to the right.

Speaker 12 Okay, that you could live with them in a way, but it might be unfortunate, but it's the utter failure to rule anything out of bounds. You know, there was an interesting insight.

Speaker 12 My man, Pablo Torre, who I had on, when I was doing the next level Sunday interviews, he's a sports kind of commentator, but sports and culture and smart, sometimes you need, like it helps to have a little bit of distance.

Speaker 12 And he was on Stephanie Ruhl's show last week talking about the Elon Musk thing. And, you know, there's just this,

Speaker 12 I think for a lot of us sometimes, like this, you know, over need to overanalyze, like, what is the culture? What is happening? What's with young men and the cultural trends here?

Speaker 12 And Pablo's just kind of like, look, these guys see that these far-right guys are for sale.

Speaker 12 I was like, like, Trump is for sale. Like, Trump is going to do business with them.
And just look at the way that he flipped on TikTok.

Speaker 12 Look at the way that he, you know, has been willing to, you know, flip on, you know, various international issues as well. Pablo mentioned Miriam Adelson.

Speaker 12 I mean, there's just over and over again, like his messaging is malleable if his big supporters are willing to make it. So Saudi Arabia is another good example.
Sometimes that does get lost.

Speaker 12 I felt a little chastened by Pablo's point as a professional analyst, because I do think sometimes we're like, we go after the corrupt side of all of it and

Speaker 12 the very dangerous rhetorical side of it. But like, there's an old school level of corruption with Trump that he does kind of get away with on this stuff.

Speaker 12 And I think that it's true about a lot of these guys. Yeah, that's interesting.
And on TikTok, of course, he's paid no price.

Speaker 12 I don't know a single China hawk who said, gee, I may not be able to support Trump. Maybe Biden's tough friend, China, which shows that these movements do have a certain momentum of their own.

Speaker 12 And once the operatives, but also the think tank types and the others, journalists, sort of semi-sign on,

Speaker 12 they sort of have signed on and they don't. Some of them break at certain moments.
We've seen it obviously over the last two, three, four years. But generally, it's the opposite, right?

Speaker 12 They give up whatever reservations they once had and they whitewash whatever things they don't like about trump's policies because they like the transactionalist nature of them and also they think that they might get them back in the end and i remember one time you were talking about this with i think it was maybe it charlie back in the day and it was like Trump is malleable besides a couple few core things, right?

Speaker 12 So if you believe that you can work with him and you're like, okay, well, I care about the serious elements of the China hawkery, right? Like the behind the scenes stuff about IP reform and stuff.

Speaker 12 I'm like, I can win him over on IP reform because he doesn't give a fuck as long as I just look the other way when he says, oh, it's okay if the Chinese, you know, have concentration camps.

Speaker 12 I think that is part of their calculus. Like the way that Trump is malleable on this stuff based on influence, they see it kind of as a good thing.

Speaker 12 In that respect, the fact that he's a demagogue and not really as much of an ideologue, if you want to put it that way, helps him probably, right? I mean, that's why he's better.

Speaker 12 He's stronger than DeSantis and the true believers as an actual political leader in some ways. Yeah, Master Yano, and you go down the list.
This North Carolina guy, Mark Robinson.

Speaker 12 There are some idiots, though, in the movement. I do think it's important to remember.
We would be remiss if we didn't listen to Tommy Toberville analyze what is happening in Russia.

Speaker 15 How many TV clips have you seen of a battle in Ukraine? Zero. in the last six, seven, eight months.

Speaker 15 It's one-sided.

Speaker 15 Putin just kind of sitting back watching what's going on, wondering, hey, when y'all are going to come over and we'll draw a line here, he doesn't want Ukraine. He doesn't want Europe.

Speaker 15 He's got enough land of his own. He just wants to make sure that he does not have United States weapons in Ukraine pointing at Moscow.
Yeah.

Speaker 12 I'm sorry, Alabama. This is why you're stereotyped.
Okay. I mean,

Speaker 12 this person,

Speaker 12 what is he talking about? He hasn't seen video of the war in Ukraine. I can maybe watch some news besides Newsmax then, Senator, if you'd like to see some video of what's happening in Ukraine.

Speaker 12 I do think it's relevant here to what all the things that we've been discussing in Europe, because it's true about these European far-right parties too.

Speaker 12 They are all ranging from Putin sympathetic to Putin tools. And he's bought a lot of them, right?

Speaker 12 Just what you were saying earlier about the transactional, you know, these authoritarian movements can combine fanaticism. and transactional, you know, corruption, right?

Speaker 12 If that's the right term for it, you know what I mean by that.

Speaker 12 Buying people, but also and then having some true believers. And at some points, there are tensions between them, I guess.
And there are little fights within these authoritarian movements.

Speaker 12 But at the end of the day, especially if they're winning,

Speaker 12 I guess I'm struck by that recently, thinking about it. It just gives it a momentum.
The thing holds together if it looks like a winning enterprise.

Speaker 12 People sign off for different reasons, but then they stick with it. I think everyone listening to the podcast is aware about Putin's intentions.

Speaker 12 But would you like to just share what Putin's actual plans are, contra Foghorn-Leichhorn there? You mean to conquer all of Ukraine and then to destroy NATO,

Speaker 12 but also to something close to genocide in terms of the Ukrainian people, the Ukrainian nation. And he's made it all clear.
And he's, I mean, it's

Speaker 12 Biden was good on this. I think he and others said this at D-Day.
But not just on that, on the politics of that.

Speaker 12 I've always thought Ukraine is more of a vulnerability for Trump than people conventionally think here in the U.S. Foreign policy doesn't matter.
It's the pocketbook. It's inflation fine.

Speaker 12 But at the end of the day, that's an issue that some Republicans still remember what they're supposed to be for. And as we saw in the vote in the House, even Speaker Johnson,

Speaker 12 can't quite stomach giving over Ukraine to Putin. Aren't really where Tuberville is.
He's where half the Republican Party on the Hill is, but not only half.

Speaker 12 That's an issue that splits the Republicans. I feel like politically, that should be ⁇ people should make clear that putting Trump in there is the Touberville policy.

Speaker 12 Let Trump distance himself from Tuberville. They should have ads up tomorrow saying this is what Trump believes, this ludicrous know-nothing appeasement of Putin.

Speaker 12 And let them spend a week arguing among themselves whether Trump believes this or whether he actually

Speaker 12 likes what he does. But let him

Speaker 12 let Mike Johnson say, well, I don't quite believe this. And you got to get these things into play to disrupt their coalition more.
Yeah, I feel like a little more can be done with that.

Speaker 12 The Kay Commons last week was so good. If you missed it, just on the Estonia, the Estonia gambit and the worries there about what Putin's next move could be.

Speaker 12 If they do listen to the Tubervelts of the world, if Trump does get in there, there are just so many options for Putin to just cause a little bit of trouble,

Speaker 12 going a short way into NATO territory and trying to cause a bluff. And with all of these things we've been discussing together, you have these parties rise in Europe and you have Trump in America.

Speaker 12 I mean, the potential for catastrophe is, I think, a lot higher than has really sunk in among average people.

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Speaker 4 Older homes are especially vulnerable to quake damage, so you may need to take steps to strengthen yours.

Speaker 6 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com to learn how to strengthen your home and help protect it from damage.

Speaker 9 The work may cost less than you think and can often be done in just a few days.

Speaker 10 Strengthen your home and help protect your family.

Speaker 11 Get prepared today and worry less tomorrow.

Speaker 6 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com.

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Speaker 12 We have one more idiot, but dangerous idiot, Johnny McIntyre, who we've been talking about. Bill, you know our new segment, The Right Stuff.

Speaker 12 I think it's important that people know about Johnny.

Speaker 12 We were discussing the green room, one of the past Write Stuff clips where he talked about how white people deserve their own state, like the Palestinians.

Speaker 12 But on theme today, I wanted to play something about his thoughts about Ukraine.

Speaker 16 When you're doing your taxes this year, don't forget to list all of your dependents: your son, your daughter, Ukraine, Israel.

Speaker 12 News over the weekend was confirmed what we've known here for a while is that Johnny is in a position to have a high-ranking personnel role in the next administration.

Speaker 12 So that's the types of people that we're going to have in there. Yeah, absolutely.
And

Speaker 12 both true believers and demagogue doesn't even begin to describe it.

Speaker 12 But anyway, maybe some of my pro-Israel friends who've been beating me up for some deficiencies, I would say, in the Biden administration's policies, perhaps towards Israel should Should explain to me how that's going to work out well when McIntyre staffs the entire administration.

Speaker 12 The degree to which

Speaker 12 Trump's pro-Israel policy depended entirely on Jared and David Friedman, his ambassador to Israel, and some personal relationships and sort of leftover views from 30 years ago that he had from New York, and the degree to which that could all go south, that's maybe a point people should start to make.

Speaker 12 Aaron Powell, Jr.: This stuff never gets mentioned, that these people will be in there. And this is happening all over the MAGA Internet.
It's not as in people's face, right, as the protest.

Speaker 12 And there's this disgusting protest outside the White House. Now, again, they're protesting Biden, so it's unclear why Biden has to be responsible for this.

Speaker 12 But you have these disgusting far-left, you know, pro-Hamas, literally, like there was a guy with a fags for Hamas sign, literally pro-Hamas protesters outside the White House. That's concerning.

Speaker 12 I take fair concern that

Speaker 12 the Biden White House maybe is staffed by some people who are to his left on Israel. But that is also true of Trump, and to a greater degree.

Speaker 12 I mean, there will be people that are to his isolationist right that are more explicitly anti-Semitic than he is, that are all over his administration, like this guy. And that doesn't ever sink in.

Speaker 12 That doesn't ever get talked about in these worlds. Can you send a mass email to your old friends about that?

Speaker 12 Can you just send a memo?

Speaker 12 I could. Are you not concerned about the white nationalists staffing the next administration, the Jew-hating white nationalists that are going to staff the next administration?

Speaker 12 Has anybody got concerned about that? I will send more memos to my friends, but they are very good at selective,

Speaker 12 I don't know what even to call it, selective interpretation of reality.

Speaker 12 Yeah, I forgot to put the Biden hostages thing on my outline this morning. As I said, I'm in Portugal, so

Speaker 12 I'm not maybe 100% in my podcast hosting right now, but I do want to talk about this. It was great news.
Four hostages were released. There's some very moving images.

Speaker 12 If you want to talk about the merits of that, I'm happy to hear your thoughts on it. But I think it was absolutely a positive and wonderful news.

Speaker 12 The problem is for Biden politically and just, you know, how much of a briar patch this is for him. The U.S.
helped with the intelligence gathering on this. The pro-Israel side, absolutely no credit.

Speaker 12 All I saw on the internet this weekend from people on the pro-Israel side was that they were angry that Biden wasn't madder about the people protesting him, I guess, outside the White House.

Speaker 12 And they're mad, I guess, about one of the statements that was talked about now wanting a full ceasefire after this that was put out by Jake Sullivan. So he gets no credit for the U.S.

Speaker 12 intelligence helping this. No credit for his Holocaust speech a couple weeks ago, a Holocaust Remembrance Day speech from the pro-Israel crowd, from the anti-Israel crowd, you know, crushed.

Speaker 12 Like, you know, the media is like basically reading talking points put out by the Hamas PR team about the number of people that died in this effort to ex-fill the hostages, despite the fact that they're hiding among civilians, obviously.

Speaker 12 So is there anything that can be done about this? I don't know. How do you assess the whole situation? They're not going to get any credit, so they need to to go out and take credit.

Speaker 12 And I do think he needs at some point, it's better to lose a few voters, I would say, on his left or on the

Speaker 12 pro-Palestinian side, and look strong than to look like - I mean, it's unfair, maybe, that they keep portraying him as zigging and zagging.

Speaker 12 And every time one of Jake Sullivan is obviously an important figure, but other spokespeople and Democratic Party spokespeople, not even Biden people and people at the state level, say something like, gee, it's really unfortunate that they killed so many people in getting those hostages out.

Speaker 12 And then that gets blamed on the the Biden administration. They can't spend all their time, you know, distancing themselves from every comment by every liberal, Democrat, and so forth out there.

Speaker 12 I understand that. But again,

Speaker 12 I mean, he could personally have said something, for example, and not let Jake Sullivan go on a Sunday show. That, again, you've done this as a living, and I have a little bit.
I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 12 You got a very success, pretty successful trip abroad. You can do a nice visit to the American Cemetery at Bellowood and contrast it with Trump.

Speaker 12 Jake Sullivan goes and does a Sunday show where he's going to get asked about this and he's going to have to navigate between they want to cease fire, but of course they're glad the hostages are out, but that doesn't mean that we can just count on military action to get all the hostages out.

Speaker 12 And that becomes as big a story as Biden. I don't mean to be like one of these insiders who's always quarreling with how could you put this guy on TV and why did you make this decision and all this.

Speaker 12 At some point that gets tedious and it's unfair also.

Speaker 12 Having said that, I do feel like on a Sunday of a successful trip to France, the president should be the news, not his national security advisor, you know, answering questions which aren't going to always be easy and which he tried to straddle.

Speaker 12 Did he say anything wrong?

Speaker 12 The National Security Advisor does have to be out there at times. We do want him to have more surrogates out there.
I get it. I'm with you.
Moore is more on Biden.

Speaker 12 He did do a David Muir interview that nobody talks about because it was totally, it was perfectly fine and uneventful, which is kind of why you do David Muir interviews, just as a little tip from somebody who was in the game not so long ago booking interviews like this.

Speaker 12 Muir, not exactly known for... for news-breaking,

Speaker 12 penetrating questions. But anyway, he did it.
So the National Security Advisors out there, other people are out there. The message is basically, yeah, we're happy these hostages are out.

Speaker 12 We're happy to be, you know, to play a supportive role with this. We're also still actively trying to get a ceasefire to bring an end to this.
And what else do you want these people to say?

Speaker 12 Like, what do you want them to say? Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough.
I had to come to their defense in this one because I'm about to criticize them on the next one.

Speaker 12 Our friend Jonathan Martin sent out a tweet about transcribing a message from Illinois governor J.B. Pritzker.
He was speaking at some Democratic confab over the weekend.

Speaker 12 His message about his opponent was this: Pritzker, Donald Trump is a convicted felon, an adjudicated rapist, and a congenital liar.

Speaker 12 He's a racist, sexist, misogynist, narcissist who wants to use the levers of power to enrich himself and punish anyone who dares speak a word against him.

Speaker 12 He has stolen state secrets, compromised our national security, betrayed our Constitution, and sacrificed the truth to further his own naked ambition. Bam.
Okay, yes, that's good. More of that.

Speaker 12 I don't know if we need to do the race, sexist, misogynist thing. Sometimes giving specific examples of what he did is better than using the terms.

Speaker 12 If I was just nitpicking the speechwriter there, but otherwise, A-,

Speaker 12 very strong. We need more of that.
We're happy that he's out there. And yet,

Speaker 12 should Kamala be saying that? Right? Should Biden be saying that? Maybe we're going to be giving that at the convention. But I think that is

Speaker 12 some of the antsiness in Democratic circles. And I actually can't really adjudicate myself.
I'm curious, your view is, do we need to hear this for like emotional satisfaction?

Speaker 12 Like we just need to feel better that someone's out there saying it? Or would it be helpful to have more people delivering that message more loudly from Team Biden?

Speaker 12 I think more people more loudly, but also, as you said, more effectively if possible. I think Frisk was very good.
It was at the Wisconsin Democratic Convention, I think, so it's an important state.

Speaker 12 I very much agree with you, and San Lee, this is a point I think some of our friends miss, and we probably do, I do at least occasionally, which is the examples make a big difference.

Speaker 12 And Trump, for all that he's a totally out of control demagogue and all this, is pretty, someone at this point, somewhere I read it, that Trump is pretty good at that.

Speaker 12 He actually does give you examples. Half of them are false and made up, but he doesn't say this judge is a bias.
He gives you like four instances of alleged bias by Judge Merchant in New York.

Speaker 12 There's to say they're not true, but it makes it seem like, yeah,

Speaker 12 it really was a rigged trial. He didn't let me introduce witnesses and he didn't, and the jury instructions were bad, and

Speaker 12 whatever. And I do think some of our people, some of the people on the liberal side forget that.
The other thing I would say is the messenger matters.

Speaker 12 And here I do think there's been a wild underutilization of Democratic governors who won by big margins in states that Biden has to win only two years later.

Speaker 12 And they're pretty popular in those states, it looks to me, from the polling Shapiro, Whitmer, Evers in Wisconsin for that matter, or governors in sort of adjacent states like Presker, Polis in Colorado could probably help in Arizona.

Speaker 12 And there's not much use of them really in a sustained way and in a way that's coordinated more with the messaging of the campaign. Maybe we'll see more of that.
You and I were in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 12 You spoke with Shapiro on this podcast and he's obviously a loyal soldier and I think he's doing his best.

Speaker 12 But I didn't get the impression that there's intimate coordination between Shapiro World and Biden World on how to win Pennsylvania.

Speaker 12 And if I were running the Biden campaign, I'd give $100 million to Shapiro and say, go win Pennsylvania again. You won it by 15 points last time, just went up by two for me.
you know, now.

Speaker 12 I'm with that. I'm with that.
And JB, this is useful. Maybe this can be a useful thing for him.
Kind of a base J.B. Pritzker.

Speaker 12 There's always, it seems like there's room in our politics for kind of a little bit overweight guy who says what he thinks.

Speaker 12 Mitt put Chris Christie in that role in 2012. I guess that didn't yield success, but I don't know.
Maybe Pritzker can get out there a little bit more and feels a little bit more free to let loose.

Speaker 12 I don't know. There's something about Pritzker, even though he's a rich guy, that codes a little bit more

Speaker 12 regular person than Gavin for me. Totally.
And incidentally, Chris Christie could get out there more, but maybe the Biden people should reach out to him, you know?

Speaker 12 Chris Christie should get out there more. More on that coming, I think, on this podcast over the next few weeks.

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Speaker 12 What else do I have for you, Bill Crystal? Oh, yeah. You wrote in morning shots this week, you tried to get inside Donald Trump's head.
It's a dark place to be.

Speaker 12 So I don't know why you do this exercise. I'm I'm still recovering.

Speaker 12 So talk to us about what you think the view is from Trump world at this point. This is the second of these, you know, reading Trump's mind, things I've done at Bill Sanfry.

Speaker 12 I used to do it all the time.

Speaker 12 My implicit message, not that implicit, pretty obvious, is taking Trump a little more seriously and not just dismissing him as a buffoon, which a lot of our people still want to do, whether he personally thinks all these things or the team thinks these things for him.

Speaker 12 So my message is he thinks he's winning. He is winning by a little.
He's running pretty far ahead of where he ran in 2020.

Speaker 12 The last few months were pretty risky for him, I think, in the sense that there was the State of the Union, which Biden did well at.

Speaker 12 There was the trial in New York, which may still pay a little more price for, but he's through both of those things, and he's lost maybe a point, if that, in the national polls.

Speaker 12 Not even clear that he's lost that in the state-level polls. So he's still ahead.
And what's coming up? I mean, it's hard to see that Biden has many cards to play over the next two, three months.

Speaker 12 The biggest thing coming up is the debate, which you mentioned earlier, scheduled for June 27th.

Speaker 12 So in my putting myself in Trump's mind, I think he skips the, I think he finds an excuse not to do the debate. He says, I'll take a drug test.
Biden won't. That's a ridiculous thing, of course.

Speaker 12 The media makes fun of it. Meanwhile, it sort of percolates out there that maybe Biden is taking some drugs to make himself more alert.
And why won't he do it? And Trump finds an excuse not to do it.

Speaker 12 He might do it because he thinks he can beat Biden. He might do it just because he thinks he'd pay a price for not doing it.
But I got to think if he thinks he's ahead, it's risky to debate.

Speaker 12 Let's just pause on this point for a second. Because I like it.
I like Contrarian Bill because you make me think sometimes.

Speaker 12 And I think, you know, everyone's, you know, maybe, maybe a little more than every once in a while, from time to time, Contrarian Bill is wrong, you know, because it's a thought exercise.

Speaker 12 You're trying to get us to think, which is an important part of this process, important part of gaming out our opponent. My instinct has been from the start that both of them have to do it.

Speaker 12 You could be. I've spent less mind share on the possibility that they might not because I just feel like both of them have to abide because of age and

Speaker 12 Trump, like just to demonstrate demonstrate some level of like seriousness to the double haters, the people in the middle, even the soft Haley people. But maybe not.
I don't know. Is that right?

Speaker 12 What makes you think that Trump might reconsider? What would be the argument if you were sitting around with Chris Lasavita?

Speaker 12 Now I'm going to get you out of Trump's brain and into Chris Lasavita's brain. What is the argument for not doing it?

Speaker 12 Aaron Powell, I mean, the argument that he might consider it is that he didn't do any of the debates against the Republicans and he's not incapable of understanding that if it's in his interest, he should skip debates.

Speaker 12 Incidentally, one thing people haven't focused on, maybe you know the answer to this, it's a CNN debate, right, on June 27th. I take it that means it's only on CNN.

Speaker 12 It's not like the presidential debates we're used to, which are roadblocked across

Speaker 12 all the networks. Yeah, people's stories are going to be on, you know, whatever NCIS or, you know, CSI, Oshkosh, or whatever people are watching these days on network TV.

Speaker 12 That's just going to be on still. Yeah, so all of it, now we all know, and we've said this for years, I suppose, you know, it's the clips that matter, that go out.

Speaker 12 And so maybe it still has a very big effect.

Speaker 12 How much do you think that reduces the effect of it, though, that it's going to be watched by 10 million people on CNN, not 15 million people on every network?

Speaker 12 I think the ratings are still going to be very, very high. Part of it is just like looking at a train wreck.

Speaker 12 I think the ratings would be very high if you said, hey, exclusive on CNN tonight, we have video from a senior citizen's home and a food fight broke out in the cafeteria and these old geezers are just like throwing, you know, throwing pineapples at each other.

Speaker 12 Like, I bet that would do very well in the ratings. I think people are interested in just the freak show of this.

Speaker 12 I know that that's not great about the American democracy, but I do think there's a lot of interest in that. How crazy will Trump get? Can Biden withstand it?

Speaker 12 I think there are a lot of questions that make it more interesting than a dull Clinton debate. That said,

Speaker 12 you do get more casuals, right? Like if the key demographic here are the people that aren't paying as close attention, we keep saying that over and over again, but it's true and it's important.

Speaker 12 You probably do lose some of those people. And a lot of those those people will learn what they learn then from clips on social media and from TikTok.

Speaker 12 And I really don't know the answer to this question. Is the Biden campaign ready to be at a level of the Trump campaign, which is in its own insane way pretty aggressive and pretty good at this?

Speaker 12 I would say getting the right things out very, very fast and assumably distorted and so forth. Yeah.
I mean, I'm worried about it. It's important.

Speaker 12 There's that clip of Biden sitting down and he kind of pauses because he wasn't sure.

Speaker 12 It was like me when I go back to Catholic church now. I don't go to church as much, sorry, mom, as I used to.
And so I kind of forget when you're supposed to kneel and sit.

Speaker 12 And so sometimes I'll start to sit and I'll be like, oh wait, nope, this is the kneeling part. And so like he paused for like two seconds because he wasn't sure if it was time to sit yet.

Speaker 12 And then he sits down. The RNC puts out a video that's a five-second video of him just sitting there.
And then is like, is Biden shitting his pants during the D-Day thing?

Speaker 12 You know, and Andrew Egger, your morning shots colleague, like literally was like, no, if it was a six-second video instead of five, you would see that he sits down and it looks totally normal.

Speaker 12 And a lot of people are sharing Andrew's reply on social media. But I didn't see this everywhere.
Like this was in like relatively mainstream outlets, like the Biden didn't know whether to sit down.

Speaker 12 The right is sometimes the disinformation stuff gets a little overplayed. That is real.
And they know how to do that. I think they probably can't do that on the actual, like under debate thing.

Speaker 12 It's a little different than a random event they're taking. But, you know, we have 90 minutes of a debate on CNN, which is watched by, I don't know, 15, 20 million people.

Speaker 12 There'll still be tens of millions more who will watch clips.

Speaker 12 There will be some 40 seconds where Biden looks slightly incoherent, and there'll be some 40 seconds where Trump looks strong and decisive.

Speaker 12 And if the Trump world gets those clips out massively on social media, and not just to their own base, but maybe to swing voters, I don't know how prepared.

Speaker 12 I hope the Biden campaign is spending the next two weeks with a very, very aggressive campaign on that. But anyway, if the debate happens June 27th is pretty important.

Speaker 12 I very much agree with you on that. Then there's the sentencing of Trump on July 11th in the Republican Convention, which probably isn't that important, except his VP pick is kind of interesting.

Speaker 12 So to get back to your earlier point, the June 20th,

Speaker 12 27th window, I guess, through the French elections, British elections, Trump VP debate, possibly, and then the VP pick. Yeah, that's a pretty interesting three weeks of politics.

Speaker 12 Yeah, the 11th will be the sentencing. I didn't even mention that when I went through my period.
I figure he gets sentenced. I say this in the morning, maybe Trump's mind.

Speaker 12 Should I get sentenced and then just go right to Trump Tower and announce my VP pick? Does that step on it?

Speaker 12 Or does maybe I just, but I think the sentencing is also, I have wonderful lawyer friends who are all kind of, I think that sentencing could be a big moment. A, I'd sort of doubtful.

Speaker 12 B, in Trump's mind, I say, if I get a slap on the wrist, anything short of prison sentence, it just shows everyone it was a trivial case.

Speaker 12 I get a prison sentence, outrage, unbelievable, you know, persecution by the deep state, and he gets another $40 million of contributions and goes into the Republican Convention with huge momentum, at least among the base.

Speaker 12 Well, maybe he doesn't go, though. The convention is only four days after.
Right. Do you have time to appeal?

Speaker 12 Well, no, he appeals appeals right away, and the sentence is held off, is postponed. So he's free.
There can't be travel limits? There could be, but they won't stop him from going to the convention.

Speaker 12 And I think normally someone like that, white-collar crime, you know, they're like going to work. They're trying to travel around in the U.S.
Fucking white-collar criminals.

Speaker 12 I just get away with everything. It's unbelievable.
That would be something if they tried to stop him going to the convention. I don't know that that would play that well politically.

Speaker 12 You know, people probably think he should be able to speak to the convention. I did an interview with Julie Brown a while back, who was the Epstein case, you know, who broke a lot of these stories.

Speaker 12 And Epstein's first prison sentence, they like let him do whatever he wanted. He was like walking around South Florida, like hanging, and like cops would seem like, wait, didn't I arrest that guy?

Speaker 12 Like, isn't that guy supposed to be in jail? It's really annoying. Another thing that wasn't on my outline, which I should mention that since Epstein came up, did you see this?

Speaker 12 So Trump goes on Fox and Friends. They ask him if he will declassify the 9-11 documents, the Epstein documents, and one other conspiracy theory.
I don't know.

Speaker 12 Firstly, it's very strange that this is where Fox is right now, that Fox has gone fully down the 9-11 truth or is a rabbit hole. But Trump says he will.

Speaker 12 He will do that. He'll declassify.
And that's the clip they put on the show. But a longer clip that then got put out on radio was Trump actually backs off the Epstein one.

Speaker 12 And he said, actually, on the Epstein thing, I mean, I'll declassify why he died. But, you know, we don't want to ruin everybody's life that was involved.

Speaker 12 Maybe there's some false accusations in there. We don't want to ruin everybody's life.
I'm like, where?

Speaker 12 Again, this is where I don't want the whole show to be like, why aren't the lives doing things more?

Speaker 12 But like, if Joe Biden was like, or Bill Clinton said that, like, oh, yeah, I don't want to declassify the Epstein thing.

Speaker 12 I don't want to accidentally ruin anybody's life who might have been on the plane.

Speaker 12 It's like, wait a minute, could we not maybe seed some conspiracies of our own here or maybe some educated guesses about why Donald Trump wouldn't want to declassify the documents that maybe reveal him or his friends or his donors are hanging out with Epstein?

Speaker 12 Yeah, it certainly is an incentive for his donors to give him even more money, right? So I think there's a kind of classic mob reason for holding back on that. But no, I agree, Mick.

Speaker 12 And incidentally, in the same week, I think, basically, Joe Biden has said nothing critical of what's happening at the Hunter Biden trial and has said he would not pardon Hunter Biden.

Speaker 12 He would not pardon. Which is actually, I actually think it's almost like too far, but whatever.
I mean, I'm glad he said it from a political point of view.

Speaker 12 Again, I mean, maybe someone should emphasize a little more. We're trying to actually here at the Bulwark, we had several pieces on this, the rule of law side of things.

Speaker 12 I mean, Trump is a mob leader, and Biden is a conventional politician with some flaws, but basically a rule of law guy. And maybe that's kind of important for the future of the country.
I don't know.

Speaker 12 Yeah, a very important distinction. Yeah.
Once again, we're out here just be like, yeah, maybe let's give Joe Biden some credit.

Speaker 12 He's not even going to pardon his own, his son is on, let's just be real, like. A pretty ridiculous charge.
Like, it's a pretty absurd trial that Hunter Biden's in.

Speaker 12 And this is Hunter's done plenty of things, so he deserves that he got caught up in something.

Speaker 12 He obviously is always going to get caught up in something, but like the merits of this trial are pretty preposterous. And, you know, CNN's covering it like it's the OJ trial for some reason.

Speaker 12 And some of our friends at National Review and other places got mad at me because I was like, several outlets were attacking Hunter's daughter for.

Speaker 12 They fact-checked her testimony where what she testified about what Hunter said to her at that time was different from what her text messages said from that time.

Speaker 12 It's all like, okay, that's, look, you should tell the truth if you're on the stand, but is it really news?

Speaker 12 Like, is fact-checking the president's granddaughter's testimony in a trial that has nothing to do with the president, that's about her father's drug use? Like, is that really

Speaker 12 that the Post was doing it? Okay, but like, is that really news? Like, no, it's not. Okay, I'm sorry.
That wasn't a question, Bill.

Speaker 12 I just, that just, you were the one that brought up the, but I was happy that you brought up Joe Biden's. You're going to need to chill out there in Portugal here for a few days.
I know.

Speaker 12 I'm going to have to have a a cigarette after this. It just pisses me off so much.
It's like, we're going after Naomi Biden. Like, what? What? How?

Speaker 12 Like, can you imagine just the way that these guys would flop on the ground if you or I ever sent out one tweet criticizing like one of Javanka's kids?

Speaker 12 You know, anyway, this is just fucking the whole thing is ridiculous. All right.
I admire you. for the effort that you put in to try to honor Bill Sapphire, to try to get inside Donald Trump's head.

Speaker 12 And there were some things that you write where I'm like, yeah, that sounds like Trump. Bill's onto something there.
And then you hear what's inside real Donald Trump's head.

Speaker 12 And I wonder if it's possible to get inside a mind that deformed. Here's Donald Trump at a rally talking about sharks.

Speaker 17 So I said, let me ask you a question. And he said, nobody ever asked this question.
And it must be because of MIT, my relationship to MIT. Very smart.

Speaker 17 He goes, I say, what would happen if the boat sank from its weight?

Speaker 17 And you're in the boat, and you have this tremendously powerful battery, and the battery is now underwater, and there's a shark that's approximately 10 yards over there.

Speaker 17 By the way, a lot of shark attacks lately. Do you notice that? A lot of shark attacks.
I watched some guys justifying it today. Well, they weren't really that angry.

Speaker 17 They bit off the young lady's leg because of the fact that

Speaker 17 they were not hungry, but they misunderstood who she was. These people are quick.

Speaker 17 He said there's no problem with sharks. They just didn't really understand a young woman swimming now, it really got decimated, and other people did a lot of shark attacks.

Speaker 17 And I said, so there's a shark 10 yards away from the boat, 10 yards

Speaker 17 or here.

Speaker 17 Do I get electrocuted if the boat is sinking, water goes over the battery, the boat is sinking, do I stay on top of the boat and get electrocuted, or do I jump over by the shark and not get electrocuted?

Speaker 17 Because I will tell you, he didn't know the answer. He said, you know, nobody's ever asked me that question.
I said, I think it's a good question.

Speaker 17 I think there's a lot of electric current coming through that water. But you know what I'd do if there was a shark or you get electrocuted? I'll take electrocution every single time.

Speaker 17 I'm not getting near the shark.

Speaker 12 Okay, Bill, did you consider any of that, any like long asides in your article this morning about whether you'd rather be electrocuted or eaten by a shark?

Speaker 12 And, you know, when you talk to smart MIT people, do you ever ask them about that

Speaker 12 choice? Yeah, often. We have a lot of interesting discussions with MIT types.
I know. Well, I only give you part of Donald Trump's mind.

Speaker 12 I don't guess we're fair enough to look at the rest of it as well. well.
It's a warped man. You also didn't talk about, you know, oggling young women either.

Speaker 12 This is just some brainstorming for the next time you do something about this.

Speaker 12 I can do more of these. That's good.
Yeah, yeah. Mine's a family-friendly version of Donald Trump's mind.

Speaker 12 I wanted to close with a brief discussion. I wrote about it late Friday.
Mutual friend David Bowes of the Cato Institute died after a battle with cancer on Friday. I put it in the article.

Speaker 12 But I want folks to listen to his comments in his final remarks, public remarks before he died. He was at a convention about liberalism.

Speaker 12 He was a libertarian, an avowed, prominent, lifelong libertarian who thought deeply about libertarian philosophy and was extremely disenchanted by the libertarian movement towards MAGA and authoritarianism towards the end of his life.

Speaker 12 And here were his thoughts about that at an event in San Francisco a couple months ago.

Speaker 18 We, we libertarians, most of us Americans, are liberals.

Speaker 18 Liberalism is a universal creed. We believe that all people are endowed with inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not just some people.

Speaker 18 And that idea is incompatible with political ideas based on blood and soil or treating people differently because of race or religion.

Speaker 18 And so when you see self-proclaimed freedom advocates talking about about blood and soil, or helping a would-be autocrat overturn an election, or talking about LGBT equality as degeneracy, or saying we shouldn't care about government racism against black people, or defending the Confederacy and the cause of the South, or joining right-wing culture wars and supporting politicians who want to use the state to fight their enemies, or posting Holocaust jokes and death threats on Twitter, recognize that for what it is.

Speaker 18 Speak up, fight back, tell people that's not America, and it's certainly not libertarianism.

Speaker 12 Man, Bill, really powerful stuff. And just, I'm glad that somebody was out there saying it.
And I was glad that he was able to have the opportunity to say it before he died. No, I was too.

Speaker 12 And I didn't know David well, but I respected him.

Speaker 12 I was not a libertarian. And if anything, he disapproved of my hawkishness on foreign policy, I believe.
And I don't think I ever debated him, him, but he was a formidable debater and

Speaker 12 really a principled person. And some of the tributes to him, including yours, but others, Aaron Ross Powell, have been really moving.

Speaker 12 And it's nice to see that someone who stood with principle and really was a slightly lonely figure on the libertarian side in the last few years and holding that principle.

Speaker 12 Some other friends of ours have, Sheikh Adami and others, but some haven't. It's nice to see the tributes that have been paid to him.

Speaker 12 Yeah, I remember he was on that National Review issue in 2016, right?

Speaker 12 With you, yeah, no, so I was just pulling this up. Okay, so there's this National Review cover for people that remember.
We're going to navel gaze inside the conservative movement here for a minute.

Speaker 12 Against Trump was the cover. The editors were against Trump, so I guess we'd have to go look at who counted among the National Review editors.

Speaker 12 But among the guests that they had, there were 22 guest writers who were against Trump at this time, including David Beck, or excuse me, including David Bowes, but also Glenn Beck, Thomas Sowell, a lot of people, Ben Dominich, the Federalists, Federalists, a lot of people who ended up being for Trump not too long after that.

Speaker 12 I look at this list, David, Mona, you, Michael Medved, maybe get some half credit, Russell Moore, a very small group of people that stayed stalwart throughout all of this.

Speaker 12 And so, you know, it's interesting that you guys do kind of come from the opposite ideological islands maybe of that spectrum.

Speaker 12 But definitely credit we're due to the small but merry band of people that stayed stalwart against against Donald Trump throughout

Speaker 12 this whole ordeal, despite all of the

Speaker 12 incentives the other direction.

Speaker 12 Well, it's an honor to be with, honestly, really, to have been with David.

Speaker 12 So sorry that he died so much younger than he should have. And Russell Moore, really a principled person who's paid a huge price in the evangelical world.

Speaker 12 Mona and I, we've paid the price of being here at the Vulwark with you. So that's no price at all.
That's no price.

Speaker 12 That's been an up and up. That's been a

Speaker 12 upgrade. I couldn't really,

Speaker 12 we've upgraded you, as Beyonce would say. Yeah, the Russell and David thing are interesting.

Speaker 12 And just as a final thought on it, like the libertarians, I wrote in the piece that he was an outcast among outcasts, right? It's kind of fun.

Speaker 12 It's kind of telling about human nature that even the fucking libertarians couldn't resist Trump.

Speaker 12 You know, I mean, you would have thought that these people that were always outcasts, that never had political power, that weren't motivated by access, they didn't have any influence in the Bush presidency.

Speaker 12 And yet, something

Speaker 12 about that Trump, you know, just the appeal of being contrarian, being anti-the left, attacking the progressives, attacking the enemies, getting access you didn't have before because Trump didn't have people around him.

Speaker 12 I think there are a lot of people in the libertarian world who got access. And in a lot of ways, there's that parallel between David and Russell more.

Speaker 12 You know, like you would think that among Christians, that would be a place where somebody like Trump would not appeal.

Speaker 12 It's a lot easier to understand why our people, people, you know, the political hacks,

Speaker 12 why they succumb to Trump. Like that logic makes sense to me.

Speaker 12 But in libertarian world, in evangelical world, I don't know, extra credit, I guess, is what I'm saying, is given to Russell Moore and David Bowes for being stalwart throughout all of this.

Speaker 12 And he will be missed. Russell is still with us.
We got to get him back on this podcast. So any other final thoughts from you, Bill? No, I just echo the phrase of Russell and David.

Speaker 12 Yeah, just human nature is a funny thing. People want to be on the winning side, too.
I think the fact that Trump went won in 2016 and is back again, I don't know. People.
But you're right.

Speaker 12 Libertarians of all people should have resisted that, but whatever.

Speaker 12 Fucking libertarians, man. Thank God for David Bose.
Thank you all for being with us here today on the Bullworld Podcast. I will be back tomorrow and welcome guests and the host chair later this week.

Speaker 12 We'll see you all then. Peace.

Speaker 12 that I've got.

Speaker 12 I won't let you down.

Speaker 12 So please don't give me up.

Speaker 12 Cause I want really, really, love to stick around. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 12 Heaven knows I was just a young boy. Didn't know what I wanted to be.

Speaker 12 Didn't know who I wanted to be.

Speaker 12 I was suffering a little hungry schoolgirl's pride and joy.

Speaker 12 And I guess it was enough for me.

Speaker 12 I guess it was enough for me.

Speaker 12 To win the race, a pretty face.

Speaker 12 Brand new clothes and a big bad place on your rock and roll TV.

Speaker 12 Day, the way I play the game is not the same nowhere.

Speaker 12 And I wanna give me so happy.

Speaker 12 I think there's something you should know. I think it's time I told you so.
There's something deep inside of me.

Speaker 12 Someone else I've got to be. Take back your picture in a brain.
Take back your singing in the race.

Speaker 12 Hope you understand.

Speaker 12 Sometimes the clothes do not make the man.

Speaker 12 All we have to hear

Speaker 12 is to take these eyes

Speaker 12 and make them true. So high.
All we have to see

Speaker 12 is that I don't belong to you

Speaker 12 and you don't belong to me.

Speaker 12 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 12 Freedom.

Speaker 12 Oh, freedom.

Speaker 12 Freedom.

Speaker 12 The Bullard podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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