Olivia Nuzzi and Dana Mattioli: A Deflated Trump

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovny, and Carise Van Houten.

Speaker 6 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 10 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 11 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 1 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 9 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 8 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 12 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 13 Amazon has everything for everyone on your list, like your husband, who fidgets through the night like he's sending Morse code with his toes.

Speaker 13 Get him a weighted blanket and save big with Amazon early holiday deals. Sleep tight, Dave.

Speaker 14 Hey, everybody, a massive Wednesday on the Bulwark Podcast Network.

Speaker 19 On this feed, I've got Olivia Newtsi with a report from inside the courtroom where she's been with Donald Trump the last four days. It's pretty funny.

Speaker 19 And then I'm interviewing Dana Mattioli about her book on Amazon, something we don't spend a lot of time talking about here, the Amazon BMF.

Speaker 16 So stick around for both of those.

Speaker 19 If you want more political hot takes, I'm doing the TikTok ban and what's going on with Mike Johnson and Mitt Romney's takedowns and RFK, everything, polling.

Speaker 19 That's over on the next level with JVL and Sarah Longwell. So make sure you're subscribed to that.

Speaker 14 If you want more on the upcoming immunity hearing and also everything, Trump trials, George Conway explains it all to Sarah Longwell.

Speaker 19 They've got a new episode coming up too. So make sure you're subscribed to the next level and George Conway explains it all.

Speaker 17 Before we get to Olivia, I issued you guys a challenge yesterday.

Speaker 19 when it comes to finding me a time where Donald Trump mentions being humble.

Speaker 18 And I was humbled by your responses, which I'm going to, which you're about to find out in a second.

Speaker 17 But before we get to the one that was maybe not humbling, maybe humiliating for me personally, I would like to listen to the funniest example of Donald Trump talking about being humble with John Dickerson of CBS.

Speaker 26 Let's take a listen.

Speaker 31 When you were in Iowa, you went to a church service. The sermon was in part on humility.
What did you take away from that?

Speaker 32 Well, you know, they didn't really know I was coming because of security reasons, okay? And so we just sort of showed up.

Speaker 32 Maybe they changed quickly, or maybe it was coincidence, but it was actually in humility. I don't know.
It was very good. It was a very nice service, beautiful church.
I liked it.

Speaker 31 But humility.

Speaker 33 I mean, a lot of people don't think

Speaker 31 your name is on everything you have often talked about. Sometimes braggadocio is part of your pitch.

Speaker 32 No, I know, but there's more humility than you would think, believe me. Hidden humility.
We're all the same. I mean, we're all going to the same place, probably one of two places, you know.

Speaker 32 But we're all the same. And I do have actually much more humility than a lot of people would think.

Speaker 31 But you don't want to show it.

Speaker 32 I'd rather not play my cards. I want to be unpredictable.

Speaker 34 He's the humblest.

Speaker 18 He's the most humble.

Speaker 14 Has anybody ever bragged harder about being humble than Donald Trump?

Speaker 15 I don't think so.

Speaker 14 One other observation about this one and the next clip I'm about to play.

Speaker 19 I've always been on the side of the argument that Donald Trump is the same as he was in 1980, that there's no Donald Trump getting worse, no Donald Trump deteriorating. He's always been a dark soul.

Speaker 19 He's always been a POS.

Speaker 19 And, you know, anybody that's trying to argue that he's gotten worse or things have gotten is just trying to do a post hoc rationalization on why they went along with him in the first place.

Speaker 17 But, man, watching these videos, that video and the next one I'm about to play, both from 2016, there is at least a little bit more joie de vivre about Trump back then.

Speaker 26 We get into this with Olivia, the sad, lonely, skulking, mumbling kind of old man.

Speaker 19 I'm starting to come around.

Speaker 16 If you really just watch 2016 versus now, there is a difference.

Speaker 20 He's still the same bad person at his core, but there definitely has been a deterioration of Donald Trump over the past eight years in a way that's really stark when you compare, especially early 2015, or at least it's nine years ago, early 2015 video compared to this recent video from outside the courtroom.

Speaker 23 Anyway, here's the humiliating one: what you've all been waiting for:

Speaker 15 here's Donald Trump talking about being humble.

Speaker 35 Ever ready, it's very high energy, Donald.

Speaker 39 Mr. Trump,

Speaker 40 humble.

Speaker 42 That's a good one.

Speaker 36 Oh my God, guys.

Speaker 18 If you couldn't see it, so you're just listening.

Speaker 19 This was the debate where Jeb Bush, My boss, slaps five with Donald Trump after Trump had been just mercilessly attacking his family and his wife and just been a just general asshole.

Speaker 19 It's just one of those moments on stage where Jeb made a joke and made Trump laugh and he put out his hand and he slapped five with him.

Speaker 19 I swear I must have blacked out because I was like, how did I not remember Donald Trump saying that his code name would be humble?

Speaker 18 That's the context of this.

Speaker 19 When Jeb says that he's ever ready, I think the question was, what will your Secret Service code name be?

Speaker 23 You know, I didn't recall that Donald Trump had made that joke about himself in that very moment right after Jeb had slapped five with him. I love you, Jeb.
It happens.

Speaker 17 It happens to the best of us.

Speaker 23 I'm telling you, I blacked out. I blacked out when it happened live.
That's why I don't remember.

Speaker 19 And I'm getting the chills just re-watching it now.

Speaker 16 So a big, I guess, thanks and kind of a middle finger to Andrew, who grabbed that video and emailed it in.

Speaker 19 You win the challenge that I laid out yesterday.

Speaker 23 Donald Trump has mentioned being humble, ironically, and at the expense of my former boss.

Speaker 24 All right.

Speaker 21 Up next,

Speaker 37 live from Manhattan, Olivia Nitze.

Speaker 45 Hello, and welcome to the Bullwick Podcast.

Speaker 39 I'm your host, Tim Miller.

Speaker 36 I'm delighted to have Olivia Nootze back.

Speaker 16 She has been in court with Donald Trump, and so she is our,

Speaker 16 I don't know, kind of informal, maybe en route to being formal correspondent from Manhattan, depending on how long things go.

Speaker 16 Alongside Ben Wittis, we have multiple correspondents because that's how on the ball we are here at the bulwark.

Speaker 46 Olivia, thank you for doing this.

Speaker 47 Yeah, thanks for having me.

Speaker 16 I forget if on social media or if actually on TV you said the words that you're feeling like David Attenborough.

Speaker 28 Was it on social media?

Speaker 47 I am feeling like David Attenborough. It's like I feel like I am

Speaker 47 watching

Speaker 47 a nature documentary when I'm watching Trump interact with his attorneys or react to the prosecutors or react to the judge. And

Speaker 47 all that you can really do when you're sitting there is sort of assess his body language and try and read his facial expressions and understand

Speaker 47 the dynamics of the case through

Speaker 47 what you can read from his behavior, you know?

Speaker 18 Yeah, I thought maybe you meant it in the sense that we all can't watch this, you know, it's like you're reporting back from deep in the jungle to those of us who are starved for information.

Speaker 19 Because

Speaker 20 we need you.

Speaker 16 We need your eyes and ears that you've seen these

Speaker 43 kind of animals that we've not, these creatures that we don't have access to.

Speaker 47 Yeah, it's really crazy. I mean, it's a crazy state of affairs that there are, you know, there's still photography allowed in the courtroom immediately when Trump comes in and sits down.

Speaker 47 So you have some photos each day just of what he looks like sitting at that table before the jury is brought in, before the reporters are brought in, and before proceedings begin.

Speaker 47 And then you have some footage of him, you know, entering the court when he will often speak to the press and, you know, bitch about Tish James or about Judge Rashon or whatever else.

Speaker 14 Endorse Dave McCormick. Like you did.

Speaker 16 That's exactly what you're looking for if you're running for Senate.

Speaker 18 Just a press conference from a defendant outside the courtroom giving you his affirmation.

Speaker 47 And you get him, you know, on break or you get him when he's leaving the court.

Speaker 47 But other than that, you know, when it comes to what it actually looks like in there for him sitting there as a criminal defendant as a case is being made against him, there's no documentation.

Speaker 47 There's only you know a couple of reporters in the room and a couple sketch artists.

Speaker 36 Yeah, well, so I want to go through the

Speaker 49 developments from the case yesterday from Tuesday, but just you've been in, what, four days now?

Speaker 27 I mean, I'd love to hear just some broad observations. And I hear it's cold in there.

Speaker 22 It is.

Speaker 30 What it's like,

Speaker 43 what his vibe is like, you know, what the jurors, anything that piques your observational interest.

Speaker 47 It is really cold in there in his defense. You know, he keeps complaining about it.
He complained about it on Tuesday again when he was speaking to the press outside the courtroom.

Speaker 47 It is very cold, but it's a very old building.

Speaker 47 And last week, I believe when his lawyers complained and they asked if they could just raise the temperature by one degree, it was explained to them that, no, this is an old building.

Speaker 47 If you raise it by one degree, it'll like raise by 20 degrees and then we'll all be sweating and you don't want that.

Speaker 47 And the first day that it was reported that he had fallen asleep, it happened to be, I believe, pretty hot in that courtroom. I wasn't there that day.

Speaker 47 So, you know, if I were him, I'd want it to be cold so that I could stay kind of alert, you know?

Speaker 45 I guess.

Speaker 16 Have you seen him doze off or have you smelled him?

Speaker 47 I have not seen him doze off.

Speaker 47 The other day, I thought for a moment, I thought it looked like perhaps he was dozing off, but then I realized that actually what it seemed to be was that he was looking down at a piece of paper on the table in front of him, and you couldn't quite see that there was a piece of paper there at first because it was obscured by this screen in front of him.

Speaker 47 But you know, I don't question the judgment of any of the reporters that have said that.

Speaker 47 It's, you know, if they're sure enough that they saw that and they feel comfortable reporting that, you know, I certainly defer to Maggie Haberman and her judgment about that or about anything, really.

Speaker 47 So I just didn't happen to see it on Tuesday.

Speaker 35 Talk to me about your olfactory.

Speaker 22 How's it smelling in the courtroom?

Speaker 40 I mean,

Speaker 47 when you're in there,

Speaker 47 so many people have asked me about this. When you're in there with the press, you're not close enough.

Speaker 47 I don't think that you would be able to confirm or deny that that had occurred, but certainly a rumor. going around.

Speaker 30 So how many people are in the courtroom?

Speaker 47 I don't know. I don't know how many people are.

Speaker 18 I mean, it's him and his lawyers.

Speaker 15 It's not like his family isn't there with him.

Speaker 28 He seems pretty alone.

Speaker 47 Well, no, his family is not in there.

Speaker 47 So on Monday, when they were doing opening statements and his lawyer, Todd Blanche, he kind of gave this spiel to the jury, explaining, I'm going to call him President Trump.

Speaker 47 You're going to hear him referred to as President Trump because he's earned that title was the way that he phrased it. And he deserves to be called President Trump.

Speaker 47 And then he said, but President Trump is also a man and he's also a husband, you know, trying to humanize him and sort of bring him down to earth to the jury while also making it clear that, like, this is someone who commands respect and should be respected.

Speaker 47 But when he said that, it was the first time that it actually occurred to me: wait a second, no one is here. There's no family there.
Melania's not there.

Speaker 28 That's strange. It's really strange.

Speaker 49 I guess it's not strange with Donald Trump because it's Donald Trump, but it's really strange in the nature of that you, you know, one would expect someone with a large family like him would have somebody who would want to attend with him.

Speaker 27 You know, you're not necessarily a legal analyst, but in this situation, I think this makes your observations actually more relevant maybe, as more in the peer set with the jury.

Speaker 16 How do you assess the lawyering that's happening in the room?

Speaker 19 Like, is Todd Blanche good? Does he seem like a Marsha Clark situation?

Speaker 16 Or are you, does he ever pique your interest with an argument?

Speaker 47 Not yet. I mean, honestly, during his opening remarks, I was really surprised by how poorly he seemed to do, even just in terms of like the stagecraft of it.

Speaker 47 He kept backing away from the the microphone and sort of pacing around. And when you do that, it makes it so that no one can fucking hear you.
Like

Speaker 47 so he kept backing away and then the audio would kind of cut out. And his argument, it's sort of this strange thing where they're saying, okay, it's not illegal.

Speaker 47 to have an NDA with someone and it's not illegal to try to influence an election. But also, no one has acknowledged whether, are they changing their mind?

Speaker 47 Did Trump actually have an affair with Stormy Daniels now? I mean, they did have an NDA. Did they have a relationship?

Speaker 47 It's just a strange thing where it's like nothing that he did was illegal, but also we're still not acknowledging that he did anything that he's accused of.

Speaker 35 Yeah, I mean, where he's hiding it from his wife, but we're not telling you what he would have been hiding, right?

Speaker 34 So there's not a lot of consistency.

Speaker 35 Mitt Romney had a good quote yesterday on the trial.

Speaker 49 He said, I think everybody has made their own assessment of President Trump's character.

Speaker 27 And as far as I know, you don't pay someone $130,000 to not have sex with you.

Speaker 47 You go, I can't picture him saying the word sex.

Speaker 44 Well, he didn't.

Speaker 15 So let's listen to Mitt Romney saying the word sex.

Speaker 52 I think everybody has made their own assessment of President Trump's character. And

Speaker 52 so far as I know, you don't pay someone $130,000 not to have sex with you.

Speaker 47 But, you know, it's very strange. I keep talking to other reporters who have covered Trump for a long time, as I have.
And, you know, it all began in New York, obviously.

Speaker 47 I mean, the first time I ever spoke to Donald Trump, I was in a yellow cab in Manhattan. The first time I ever met him, I was at Trump Tower in his office.

Speaker 47 And, you know, I've covered him a lot in New York, but we haven't covered him in New York very much recently. You know, he's mostly, he was in Washington or he's at Mar-a-Lago or at Bedminster.

Speaker 47 He's seldom at Trump Tower. And he's kind of hasn't been a real New York character in much of the last, I don't know, eight years.

Speaker 47 And there's something sort of disorienting about being back here and very sad. Not that I feel sad for him, but more like just sad that this is such a pathetic state of affairs for the country.

Speaker 16 Well, it's a sad scene.

Speaker 47 It's a sad scene. It's like, oh, you go from like this sort of just incredible series of events that like turn this reality TV star into the most powerful man, arguably, in the world.

Speaker 47 And I keep thinking, looking back, yeah, I guess it was inevitable that we would end up here in a criminal court.

Speaker 33 Yes, it was.

Speaker 49 What do you think about just like image of him as this like diminishes him or weakens him?

Speaker 37 You know, what do you think about that?

Speaker 47 I don't know. I've seen him in a lot of different contexts over the years, obviously.
I'm very rarely surprised by anything or anything I see as it relates to him. I've seen him very angry.

Speaker 47 I've seen him dancing to the YMCA. Like, you know, there are

Speaker 47 many Donald Trumps. And then there was something about seeing him for the first time in that courtroom hunched over over in his chair.

Speaker 47 And then he sprang up at the end of the proceedings the other day because he clearly just wanted to get the hell out of there. And I don't blame him.
I wanted to get the hell out of there too.

Speaker 47 It's really hard for me to sit still too. And I'm not, you know, being insulted for an hour.
And the judge looked at him and he was like, sir, could you please sit down?

Speaker 47 And then he immediately like sank back into his seat really quickly, like almost like he was a child being, you know, chastened in a classroom or something.

Speaker 47 And there was just something about watching that that just, it's really strange.

Speaker 47 It's strange to see someone who is so used to having complete autonomy and being powerful and dictating the terms of like any situation that they are in, not have the power anymore to even dictate when they stand up.

Speaker 47 It's very strange.

Speaker 39 That's humiliating. It's almost, you might say, like a dog.

Speaker 41 being told to sit.

Speaker 18 That's interesting.

Speaker 28 Not like Commander, though.

Speaker 47 I don't think, not like Joe Biden's dog.

Speaker 48 Yeah, Yeah, no, Commander doesn't take commands like that.

Speaker 24 Okay, we have two just-the-facts things we got to get through.

Speaker 50 So, talk us through what happened, both with regards to the gag order and then the Pecker testimony.

Speaker 47 So, Trump has repeatedly, flagrantly violated his gag order. He has often violated that gag order while walking into the court.

Speaker 47 He has sometimes violated it on Truth Social, at least, while he's in court.

Speaker 47 And basically, what it seems like when you're watching the judge and the lawyers interact is just that Judge Mershon is completely fed up with Trump and his lawyers and the sort of fuckery that they are dealing in.

Speaker 47 And you can just tell that part of him is almost like amused by how ridiculous it is and part of him is just sort of like, this is very disrespectful and you guys are going to have to kind of find God on taking seriously my authority here as the judge in this court.

Speaker 47 And so Judge Murshon did not rule yet about the gag order. The prosecutors are asking for Trump to be fined and to be warned that if it continues, he could face jail time.

Speaker 47 But Judge Marshon did sort of say in an exasperated way to Todd Blanche, Trump's attorney, I'm going to need you, I'm paraphrasing, but I'm going to need you to make an actual legal argument.

Speaker 47 He was sort of just making the general argument that Mr. Trump is, or sorry, Mr.

Speaker 47 President is a candidate and he has a right to defend himself and you cannot prevent him from commenting on things that are relevant basically to him as a presidential candidate.

Speaker 47 And Rashan seemed to think that that was not actually a substantive legal argument.

Speaker 24 So then we're at this point now where it's, might he get threatened with jail time?

Speaker 47 At this point, the prosecutors are just attempting to fine him. I believe it's $1,000 for each individual violation of this gag order.

Speaker 47 And it's funny, I keep seeing people say, oh, well, you know, it's $1,000. It doesn't matter to Trump.

Speaker 47 Years and years ago, Spy Magazine sent Trump a check for 13 cents as a bit, and he cashed the check.

Speaker 47 So I just, the idea that he doesn't care about this, you know, minor sum of money, I think is not true.

Speaker 47 I think he cares about any sum of money, and that's sort of like an integral part of his personality. But will it actually deter him from violating the gag order? No.

Speaker 47 But if they are actually going to threaten jail time, which the prosecutors say they want, they want him to at least be threatened with that or to have it made clear to him that he could face jail jail time, then maybe he'll reign himself in.

Speaker 47 But I don't know. Has he ever reigned himself in?

Speaker 41 No.

Speaker 48 I kind of want them to threaten him with jail time.

Speaker 46 This is like a classic Trump.

Speaker 39 It's just like, you know, he's going to keep pushing and pushing.

Speaker 36 But okay, well, we'll keep monitoring that.

Speaker 16 What about so? And the first witness is David Pecker.

Speaker 49 Talk to us about what we heard from him.

Speaker 47 The first witness is David Pecker. He began his testimony on Monday at the end of the day.
He spoke for a few minutes.

Speaker 47 It was funny watching, you know, when they begin with a witness, they're adding a lot of context and, you know, helping the jury understand who the witness is, what the witness's role in the universe is and how the witness fits into the case.

Speaker 47 So you get a lot of like details about the person and their job and how they live their life that don't directly relate to the case.

Speaker 47 And watching Trump sit there having to like listen to details about someone else's life that did not immediately directly relate to him was very amusing because he really really has no tolerance for that type of thing.

Speaker 47 Like he can't talk about another person without it being about him in my experience. So he was sort of like sitting there like

Speaker 47 he was twirling a pen around in his fingers and like looking off and he just you know watching him process his own boredom has been very funny.

Speaker 47 But David Pecker basically described his place as a media executive and and running the National Enquirer and a deal that he cut with Trump and with Michael Cohen for what we now all know as a catch and kill, which is when you purchase a story from someone, not with the intention to publish it, but with the intention to suppress it and keep it a secret.

Speaker 47 And Pecker described basically

Speaker 47 hatching this plot to use the National Enquirer to fabricate or exaggerate in false detail stories about Trump's rivals during the campaign in 2016.

Speaker 47 So Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, and above all, Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton.

Speaker 16 Yeah, the Ted Cruz ones, you and I were both in different kind of ways very intimately involved in that.

Speaker 39 And it is interesting to kind of revisit all that. Like we all knew it was bullshit.

Speaker 15 Like we all knew that Trump and those guys were involved at some level.

Speaker 27 But just like having the plain testimony of, oh yeah, no, we just made up that cruise's dad killed.

Speaker 22 everything and oh yeah the thing about how ted cruise like slept with five women and like that kind of nasty can like you know, gross accusations that got put out there.

Speaker 28 Like Michael Cohen was getting to edit those articles, even apparently, like that Pecker was sending them to him before they were publishing.

Speaker 23 I mean, it just like just how debased it was and absurd and all of that just being put out there so plainly.

Speaker 30 Did you also have that reaction?

Speaker 47 Yeah, I mean, I guess, obviously, as you said, like we all knew that they were involved in some way, but just how obvious and simple it is, actually, that they were basically involved in the editing room and at the level of like story conception.

Speaker 47 I don't know. There's something about it that makes me feel like, oh, God, like, what an idiot I am that I thought it had to be a lot more complicated than that.
Like, you know, oh, it's just that.

Speaker 39 There was a wink and nudge thing happening.

Speaker 48 No, there was no wink and nudge.

Speaker 28 It was just a straight Donald Trump deal.

Speaker 47 Yeah, it was not subtle. It was not complicated.
It was just exactly what it seemed like.

Speaker 45 Yeah, okay.

Speaker 18 Any other final observations from our first few days or things you're looking forward to?

Speaker 19 Are you going to be there?

Speaker 21 Do you expect to ride this thing out or what are your plans?

Speaker 47 I mean, I plan to be there, you know, either in or around the court as much as possible. And, you know, I plan to be talking to as many of the people involved in the case as possible.

Speaker 47 We have a bunch of witnesses coming up.

Speaker 47 We don't know when because the prosecution has told the court that they will not be announcing witnesses ahead of time because Trump has attacked and intimidated witnesses before.

Speaker 47 So that's sort of unusual and just goes to show, you know, how peculiar these circumstances are in this case because of Trump's inability to get a hold of himself and not attack people involved in it.

Speaker 47 But, you know, we're expecting Michael Cohen, obviously, Hope Hicks. Stormy Daniels, like there are tons of...

Speaker 29 The Seinfeld finale.

Speaker 47 Yeah, I was just going to say there are tons of familiar characters.

Speaker 47 There is a sense sense of like, oh, okay, like this is the final season of a show and like all of the story arcs are sort of crisscrossing and everyone's meeting up here in this courthouse.

Speaker 39 God willing.

Speaker 48 Well, thank you for coming back on the pod, Olivia.

Speaker 40 And hopefully you can keep doing this and tell us what you're seeing and hearing and smelling and feeling and all that.

Speaker 47 Thank you for having me.

Speaker 45 Thanks so much, Olivia Newtsie. Up next, Dana Mattioli.
We're going to be talking about Amazon and tech. Stick around.

Speaker 37 It's going to be good.

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 6 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 10 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 11 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 1 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 9 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 8 One thing's for sure: the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 12 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

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Speaker 14 All right, welcome back. I'm with Dana Mattioli, a reporter covering Amazon for the Wall Street Journal.

Speaker 18 She's the author of the new book, The Everything War, Amazon's Ruthless Quest to Own the World and Remake Corporate Power.

Speaker 17 Thanks for coming on the Board podcast.

Speaker 42 Happy to be here.

Speaker 17 So I just got to tell you up front, like all these other big tech companies intersect with my world way more because of the media news consumption.

Speaker 16 I mean, Jeff's bought bought the Washington Post, of course, but just like the disinformation side of things, you know, the Facebook, like we don't give as much scrutiny or thought to Amazon around here.

Speaker 19 So just at the broadest level, get us up to speed at what the essential story was that you were trying to tell and what the big potential threats or concerns might be.

Speaker 42 Yeah, I think for a lot of Americans, Amazon's gotten this free pass because it wasn't involved in like election disinformation per se, right?

Speaker 19 And good on them for not getting involved in election disinformation.

Speaker 35 Low bar these days, but we'll take it.

Speaker 42 Right. But it's become this just behemoth of a company with really no modern analog.
It's almost like this modern day standard oil to the point where it's literally hard to avoid.

Speaker 42 Even if you're not shopping on them, there's a very good chance you're using something backed by AWS, their cloud server.

Speaker 42 If you're taking an Uber or Lyft or you're watching Netflix, that's an AWS, Amazon Web Services. They're in healthcare now.

Speaker 42 In the middle of reporting out this book, they acquired my doctor's office, OneMedical. So they have all my labs and my charts and stuff, right?

Speaker 41 Oh, really? I loved one.

Speaker 18 I had a great experience with One Medical out in the Bay Area.

Speaker 42 I did too. I was one of their early users.
They are a grocery company, a logistics behemoth. They unseated UPS and in the matter of a few years, that's a hundred-year-old giant, right?

Speaker 42 So they've ascended to be one of the largest companies beyond retail and like all these different tentacles that they've sprouted. It's like the standard oil cartoon of the octopus, right?

Speaker 42 Where it has all of this power across industries and they're able to synthesize and leverage that in really interesting ways.

Speaker 16 Yeah.

Speaker 18 So my natural reaction to this as kind of a free market, as a not kind of, as a free market sympathizer is I look at Amazon and I get the potential concerns, but as a practical matter, hasn't Amazon like improved people's lives like wildly on balance?

Speaker 18 You know, I mean, it's just unbelievable.

Speaker 16 Like I needed, I needed some party supplies for a party I was throwing on Saturday.

Speaker 23 I ordered them Friday night.

Speaker 42 It was at my door saturday morning that's pretty good right i mean that's at least providing some value to my life on like facebook well it depends on what you're getting i think the people i've spoken to for this book whose houses have blown up because they bought an electric scooter off of amazon where the battery exploded would say it hasn't improved their life or people who bought toys on the platform that have lead in them for their children because it's an unregulated platform of third-party sellers who sometimes dumpster dive for things to resell would say that it hasn't been a great experience for them.

Speaker 42 So, I think,

Speaker 42 yes, it's become ubiquitous and it's easy, it's fast, it's free shipping, so it's convenient, but it's not apples to apples as to you know, going to your local target store and getting off the shelf, something off the shelf that's been vetted.

Speaker 42 And it's definitely from the manufacturer, right? Like there's a risk that comes with it too.

Speaker 42 And this is a company that says that they're customer obsessed, but then there's a lot of discrepancies between that statement and some of their actions.

Speaker 42 You know, there's a scene in the book where some of amazon's own employees bring this up they're worried about the quality of goods coming in in the children's apparel side of the business they lifted this friction because they wanted all the selection from all over the world for their customers but then things were coming in that were smelling like gasoline that weren't flame retardant i feel like i've gotten some gasoline smelling deliveries

Speaker 42 hoodies for children with you know strings around the neck which is just a huge strangulation hazard and it's banned in the us and they raised this to their boss and they said hey we're going to add some barriers to entry for the the children's space to protect the customer.

Speaker 42 And he said, don't you do that? That's someone else's job. And this person is now elevated to the head of like customer trust.
I don't know. I'm a mother.

Speaker 42 I don't want my child wearing clothing like that.

Speaker 21 Yeah, I think that's fair.

Speaker 19 And it has avoided the kind of regulatory oversight in a way that some of these other guys have.

Speaker 17 I want to get into LinaCon first, but let's hear a couple of the other stories from the book, you know, about the ways that their aggressive culture evolved.

Speaker 19 You know, kind of initially, it was really kind of a Seattle company, right?

Speaker 17 It had this crunchy reputation. It was about books.

Speaker 24 Bezos was nerdy.

Speaker 23 As I started to read it, I was kind of, I actually didn't realize that Bezos was always a cutthroat finance guy because those early pictures of him in the garage being a nerd, I kind of thought he was a bookworm that hit a big.

Speaker 27 That's how zero I knew about the Bezos origin story.

Speaker 16 But some of the employees were.

Speaker 21 were that, right?

Speaker 23 So talk about like early Amazon and how it evolved.

Speaker 42 Yeah, some of the employees were. Jeff was not.
Jeff was this hedge fund guy. He was, you know, he understood arbitrage.

Speaker 42 But when he moves to Seattle, largely because of the tax advantage, not really because he like loves Seattle. He moves there.

Speaker 25 Just because of the coffee culture or Nirvana.

Speaker 38 Nah, whatever.

Speaker 42 I don't think he was big into grunge.

Speaker 42 So he moves there and he hires. these early employees to come on and help him build Amazon.
And what's interesting about them is they are the granola types.

Speaker 42 They are mission-based, nerdy, and they join because they want to democratize reading.

Speaker 42 They think that this is so cool that you could get books to people in far-flung places that can't readily get to their bookstore. And so they're joining for that, not to get rich.

Speaker 42 But there's like, you know, a culture difference between him and them. There's a scene in the book where he kind of yells at them like, you don't have the killer instinct that he clearly has.

Speaker 42 And Jeff later on would go on to hire people in his image, people that definitely had the killer instincts. And all the old guard leaves.

Speaker 42 And it's funny, I circle back to a lot of the early 90s employees for this book to just to see like their thoughts on Amazon. Do they use the site? Like, do they have any misgivings about it?

Speaker 42 And majority of the ones I spoke to, even though they became enormously rich working for this company because of the stock options,

Speaker 42 have canceled their Prime accounts, try to avoid Amazon. And some of them even said, you know, did we help create a monster? Yeah.

Speaker 29 Are they doing some guilt charity? work

Speaker 24 some of them are yet stock money i hope so i got that catholic guild inside me i'm hoping they got some are doing some guilt charity with those that cash uh one of the early stories that isn't a good example of this that I hadn't heard about before was the diaper.com story.

Speaker 17 There's some parent company, but it was essentially the diapers.com and the way that Amazon just squeezed them out.

Speaker 36 Tell that anecdote.

Speaker 42 Amazon says that their customer obsessed, but they also pay a lot of attention to their competitors. And this is a good example.

Speaker 42 There was this company, diapers.com out of New Jersey that had figured out how to ship. diapers to moms and dads across the country in one or two days.

Speaker 42 And this is, you know, in the 2010 timeframe when that was not ubiquitous at all. This definitely catches Amazon's radar.

Speaker 42 They start getting worried about this company and its logistics prowess and how they're doing it. And they start tracking it.

Speaker 42 They put together internal documents on this, this whole plan to win against diapers.com, a 12-step plan. So they start discounting their diapers and offering promotions.

Speaker 42 They're trying to steal share from this new upstart.

Speaker 42 And diapers.com tries to compete with them. And Amazon becomes interested in just like buying them out, like buy out the competitor.
And what's interesting here is, you know, diapers.com resists.

Speaker 42 They don't really want to be owned by Amazon. And Amazon then slashes the prices of its diapers by like 30%.

Speaker 42 They start losing $200 million a month on diaper sales just to stick it to diapers.com and say, all right.

Speaker 29 Moms start to get primed for free.

Speaker 42 Moms get primed for free.

Speaker 41 They give away.

Speaker 16 So here's me as a consumer. I'm like, pretty good.

Speaker 48 Hey, moms are getting primed for free.

Speaker 42 Amazon consumers are loving this. Like, how could it's pretty much getting, I mean, not pretty much, they're getting diapers below cost.

Speaker 42 And it's at this point that diapers.com starts missing all of its projections. They can't compete.
They realize there's predatory pricing going on, but they don't really have recourse.

Speaker 42 And then they do have to sell the company. They really don't want to sell to Amazon.
They start engaging with Walmart. They get an offer.
They engage with Amazon. They get an offer.

Speaker 42 And Walmart actually makes a really great superior offer to Amazon's while they're at dinner with Amazon's leadership. And they look at their Blackberry.

Speaker 42 They get an email with Amazon from Walmart with this like great offer, $100 million more than Amazon's offering them. And they tell the executive team at the dinner, hey,

Speaker 42 we're gonna take this Walmart offer and they're threatened. They say, okay, you wanna sell to Walmart? We'll slash the diapers prices on Amazon to $0.

Speaker 42 So basically, we'll put you out of business. And in deal making, there's something called a MAC clause.

Speaker 42 So if you sign a deal to be acquired, but something materially horrible happens to your business in the interim, the buyer buyer could walk away. So that's kind of the threat they were making.

Speaker 42 Like, good luck trying to sell it to a what rival. And Quidsy or diapers.com was forced to sell to Amazon, which they really hated

Speaker 42 at $100 million less than what Walmart was offering them. And it was like, it was actually a really sad moment for the founders.
They'd even go out for a drink to celebrate.

Speaker 42 They felt like they sold out to this company that was making their life hell.

Speaker 16 I went about the Trader Joe's example.

Speaker 25 That was also one that struck me.

Speaker 42 I love this story, too.

Speaker 42 You know, Amazon has a really cutthroat culture that starts with jeff and filtered down into the company where it's like almost like the hunger games when it comes to the employees there like they're really brilliant but a lot of them get six percent of them get cut at the end of the year and a lot of the really shocking behaviors in the book are driven by this crazy culture so trader joe's amazon was launching this privately evil food brand called wickedly prime in 2015 and They even wrote a six pager, which is how they pitch things to management, which is like a dream for a reporter because you get these six pagers, saying that their goal for this brand is to copy the top 200 best-selling items at Trader Joe's.

Speaker 42 But they couldn't figure out what those items were because Trader Joe's is secretive. They don't have online shopping or reviews.
So it's kind of hard to figure it out.

Speaker 42 To help them, they go and poach this woman from Trader Joe's's snacks business. She interviews for the job at Amazon.
She's not really told what exactly she'd be working on.

Speaker 42 It's a little bit hush-hush. And then her first week in Seattle, she's walking around headquarters and she stumbles upon this conference room.

Speaker 42 and it's got brown paper covering the windows and the glass and the door so no one could see inside it. She's intrigued.
She walks in and it's just filled with boxes of Trader Joe's snacks.

Speaker 42 And she starts piecing things together.

Speaker 29 Teeny tiny avocados.

Speaker 44 Exactly.

Speaker 17 The chili and lime flavored tortilla chips.

Speaker 42 I see that you're a fan of Trader Joe's.

Speaker 17 I was at one time.

Speaker 42 So she's gets a little panicked, like, what the hell am I being hired for? And then it becomes abundantly clear because her manager starts saying, hey, what documents do you have from Trader Joe's?

Speaker 42 I want them. And that, like, obviously a huge breach of friend DA,

Speaker 42 possibly corporate espionage. So she resists.
She doesn't want to share this because, you know, it could be deemed illegal too. She resists.

Speaker 42 She doesn't hand him over, but the pressure becomes so much that she winds up emailing him and the team a spreadsheet of their top-selling items over the course of the week. Feels really bad about it.

Speaker 42 And then he doesn't stop there. He says, give us the margins too.

Speaker 42 So that she fights back. He screams at her, just give us the data.
She cries in the middle of the office. And it gets reported to legal because this is, you know, not normal business practices.

Speaker 42 The team gets fired, but it's just emblematic of this broader culture there. And stuff like that happens all the time, like literally all the time.

Speaker 48 Okay.

Speaker 17 You're starting to make me feel a little bit worse about my prime, story by story here.

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Speaker 17 I want to talk about the DC side of things.

Speaker 26 The book, I guess, probably you're starting working on the book before this, but in a lot of ways, it's pegged to the Lena Khan FTC lawsuit against Amazon for being a legal monopoly.

Speaker 18 It was the fall of 2023 that they began engaging in this. My instincts, I gotta tell you, Lena Khan's getting complimented by J.D.

Speaker 19 Vance and Matt Gaetz.

Speaker 18 It's making me question things.

Speaker 19 I'm like, uh-oh, when the far left and Matt Gaetz and J.D.

Speaker 16 Vance are agreeing on something, instinctively, you know, my guard goes up. So talk to us about the case and basically the arguments that she's making.

Speaker 42 Yeah, I will. But to your point on that, it's so strange.
It's the weirdest bedfellows on this fight. Yeah.

Speaker 42 It's in something that these, you know, these sides can't agree on, but this is what they agree on. All right.

Speaker 42 So Lena Khan obviously made her name in 2017, she writes this law review article about Amazon saying it's a monopoly. She's a law student at the time.

Speaker 42 No one really knows who she is, but it goes viral and it really elevates her career. People start questioning if Amazon's a monopoly.
It was this darling. People love their prime, to your point.

Speaker 42 And people weren't thinking about the other effects of this company at that time period. But it's the first time when people started to use the word Amazon a monopoly in the same sentence.

Speaker 42 She has this meteoric rise. She becomes becomes a legal counsel to Congress on their investigation into big tech.
She has all these other positions.

Speaker 42 And then in 2021, President Biden picks her to be the head of the FTC, the youngest in the agency's 100-year history, which is something that shocked a lot of people, including people at the agency.

Speaker 42 And definitely Amazon, because this was kind of their Ida Tarbell. She had started all these problems for them, and now she's at the head of the agency regulating them.

Speaker 42 So in September, the FTC filed a lawsuit against Amazon. It sort of comes full circle.

Speaker 42 It says that Amazon is this monopoly, that it is hurting sellers on the site and customers, and it's raising prices for consumers on Amazon.com, but also in the entire internet online economy.

Speaker 42 And that's where we're at now. That was in September.

Speaker 19 What is the kind of timeline status latest on that?

Speaker 42 So they will be starting discovery soon. You know, these things move.
really, really slow. It won't go to court until October 2026.

Speaker 36 Oh, wow.

Speaker 17 Bezos has been, been, you write about this a little bit, like not exactly deft at navigating Washington, I guess, as evidenced by the fact that, you know, his nemesis got put at the head of the FTC.

Speaker 50 You know, you might think that they could have lobbied the administration on that one.

Speaker 48 Talking about just their engagement with Washington altogether, in a lot of ways, they have, as I mentioned at the top, kind of avoided the type of scrutiny that you might expect to date.

Speaker 19 But talk about their engagement with Washington and the regulatory regime and Congress, for that matter.

Speaker 42 Some of the hilarious stuff in the book was like related to this. Jeff has always been really disinterested in the DC side of being a corporate Titan.

Speaker 42 He told his head of government relations years ago, hey, if I wanted to go to the hill and do this stuff, I wouldn't have hired you. Just like leave me out of it.

Speaker 42 To the point earlier, he could be really pugnacious. He could be reactionary.
He's not really someone who's diplomatic on that sort of stage.

Speaker 42 So there was this weird dichotomy where The company still thinks it's a startup, but it's hundreds of billions of dollars. It's starting to crush Main Street.

Speaker 42 It's being called into question by other competitors about its tactics. And Jeff saying, you know, we're small, we're misunderstood, not really wanting to spend the time in DC.

Speaker 42 So in 2013, the board starts telling him, hey, we have to take this seriously. Like we need to bring in a heavy hitter here.
We can't avoid DC anymore. They wind up bringing on Jay Carney.

Speaker 42 the Obama spokesperson in 2015 to head up government relations and PR, like a really big hire for the company. He reports right to Jeff.
And the scenario scenario plays out.

Speaker 42 The people in D.C., he builds up this team. They start spending a lot of money on lobbying.

Speaker 42 They get really good people in D.C., people from the FTC, the DOJ who worked on the Hill that understand government relations.

Speaker 42 They understand that you have to be diplomatic and extend the olive branch and all this stuff. But in Seattle, Jeff and his team who do not understand D.C.

Speaker 42 would be... reactionary and oftentimes like rude.
He would tell his team whenever there was criticism, punch back.

Speaker 42 So there's scenes in the book where he and his deputies are on conference calls for hours, ginning up nasty tweets to senators that are determining the company's legislation, like whether the company is going to be broken up.

Speaker 42 And the DC team is like super frustrated.

Speaker 15 I didn't actually go back and look, but I have this memory of being in DC in the, in that area and being on Twitter, obviously, and seeing Jay Carney would occasionally send stuff.

Speaker 43 And I was like, that's kind of aggro for Jay Carney as a company spokesperson.

Speaker 16 But

Speaker 35 the context here is that he's getting pressured by Jeff and the team.

Speaker 42 He took on a lot of Jeff's demeanor here. And they would just attack like Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.
They came out swinging.

Speaker 42 Jeff gets into a whole pissing match with Joe Biden that backfires where. Amazon's leadership learns that the Biden administration starts viewing Amazon and Bezos as too toxic to touch.

Speaker 42 So he never gets an audience with Joe Biden while Jeff is CEO.

Speaker 42 He doesn't get invited to these roundtables and there's these funny scenes where jay carney who seemed so well positioned with the biden white house he worked for the vice president at the time all his friends are in senior positions he's literally texting them pleading saying please invite us to the next roundtable can you include jeff here and they're just like he's persona non grata you burned your bridges so the the dc team had this saying called watering the flowers they would try to appeal to different people on the hill, make amazon's case, build a good rapport.

Speaker 42 And then in Seattle, Jeff and his leadership team were just stomping all over the flowers, undermining their efforts, sabotaging everything.

Speaker 42 And they had this scorched earth approach to DC that really did not help the cause.

Speaker 20 Yeah, it's kind of really amazing that in spite of that, you know, they still sort of avoided some of these actions.

Speaker 19 So I guess maybe it's coming now just slowly, but surely.

Speaker 35 I do wonder on the other side of the fence, obviously he doesn't have a good relationship with Trump either, though you do mention a funny story about how his new, are they married?

Speaker 22 His new wife?

Speaker 28 Is it a new wife?

Speaker 42 Oh, Sanchez, they're not married yet.

Speaker 29 Yeah, the new girlfriend and Kellyanne Conway have hit it up.

Speaker 27 But Donald Trump obviously does not like the Jeff Bezos Washington Post, which he bleats about all the time.

Speaker 19 Are they concerned about a Trump administration and

Speaker 19 them being on the retribution list? How do they kind of see?

Speaker 17 Obviously, they don't have a good relationship with Biden either, but how do they see this matchup?

Speaker 42 Are they concerned now or were they concerned the first time?

Speaker 43 Now

Speaker 42 they have really awful choices.

Speaker 42 Both administrations have been really bad to them. And in some ways, they were more concerned about Trump to begin with because there was all this vitriol.
Trump was tweeting about Bezos.

Speaker 42 He was tweeting about the Washington Post. He was calling Amazon a lobbying arm.
And, you know, before he became president, he said, this is a monopoly. I'm going to break them up, right?

Speaker 42 So they were worried about that and they were unprepared for it. Interesting thing is the Trump administration was all bark, no bite.

Speaker 42 And I asked Peter Navarro, I said, you know, if you guys were so concerned that Trump thought this was a monopoly, why didn't you do anything?

Speaker 42 And he said, well, we would have gotten them in a second term.

Speaker 40 Who knows?

Speaker 42 The Biden administration, you know, they don't send nasty tweets and stuff like that, but it's been so much more damaging for Amazon. They've been totally shut out.

Speaker 42 At the Trump White House, they actually had some backdoor meetings and had some cooperation with his administrators and aides. Biden team is not really friendly to Amazon.

Speaker 42 They picked Lena Kahn to head the agency regulating Amazon, which was like a huge blow. There's a scene in the book where Klobuchar leaks that at a hearing, and the Amazon people are watching it.

Speaker 42 And they just say, What the fuck? Did she just say that Lena Kahn's going to be at the FTC? And she didn't even say that it was going to be the head of the FTC at the time, I don't think.

Speaker 42 She just said she's going to be on the FTC. So that was a huge blow.
And he's also kind of trolled them a little bit.

Speaker 42 I don't know if it's intentional, but he's welcomed all of Amazon's biggest rivals to the White House with open arms.

Speaker 42 You know, Doug McMillan, the CEO of Walmart, Chris Smalls, the agitator from the Staten Island Amazon warehouse that was the union activist, whereas he won't meet with Bezos.

Speaker 42 So it's been a really interesting dynamic to see play out that both presidential candidates are not at all Amazon friendly.

Speaker 48 It'll be interesting to keep watching.

Speaker 20 And we need to do more Lena Kahn on here.

Speaker 17 What an interesting character. So we'll keep monitoring that as well.

Speaker 18 Dana, thanks so much for doing this well-reported book. I like learning stuff, you know, about things that are on my radar, but ish.

Speaker 19 You know, I've just been a normal average consumer out here, enjoying my prime and not thinking critically about it. So, I appreciate you challenging me on that.

Speaker 16 The book is The Everything War: Amazon's Ruthless Quest to Own the World and Remake Corporate Power. Thanks for coming on the Borg podcast.

Speaker 42 Thanks for having me.

Speaker 14 All right, we'll see you guys all tomorrow with another edition of the Borg podcast. Scotus is in session looking at the Donald Trump immunity claims.

Speaker 19 We'll talk about that and much more.

Speaker 16 See y'all then. Peace.

Speaker 53 I'm down in this.

Speaker 46 Jouse with my boo, babe, taste like Kool-Aid for the analyst. Girl, lockin' by your Westy world with my bass stuff.
Ooh, that poo good, won't you say that on my taste bloods?

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We playing tetras. AM to the BM, BM to the AM phone.

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Speaker 53 My left stroke just went viral.

Speaker 53 Right stroke, put a baby in a spiral. Soprano C, we like to keep it on the high note.
It's levels to it, you and I know. Bitch, be humble.

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Speaker 53 Sit down.

Speaker 35 The Bullwork podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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