Tom Mauser and Bill Kristol: Columbine, 25 Years On

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovny, and Carise Van Houten.

Speaker 10 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny, infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 18 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 22 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 23 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 12 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 26 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 29 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

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Speaker 34 Hey JVL, it's been months since I've seen you without a screen intermediary. I'm just dying to lick your face and put my hands on you.
And so,

Speaker 34 are you going to come do some public events with us and

Speaker 35 human contact?

Speaker 33 Human contact? Yes. Yes, i'm gonna do it i'm coming out of the house i'm leaving the basement for two days

Speaker 33 may 1st in philadelphia and may 15th in washington dc this will be the first bulwark event where we encourage jeering because it's philly people so jeer us yes may first if we have a bad show i expect the philly crowd to boo us Please.

Speaker 34 Or anyway, even if it's a good show, boo us anyway. We deserve it.
May 1st in Philly, May 15th, 6th and I Synagogue in Washington, D.C. Come hang out.

Speaker 34 Go to thebulwark.com slash events to get your tickets. Thebulwark.com slash events and JVL.
I just can't wait to get all up on you.

Speaker 34 Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
Big show today. Much to discuss.

Speaker 34 I'm coming at you from Austin, which is why we have this weird background on YouTube where I taped Love It or Leave It last night.

Speaker 34 So if you're interested in my comedy styling, so you can go check out that. I also was on the Dispatch podcast over the weekend where they got to try to turn the tables on me.

Speaker 34 So, you can check that out if you want. But today, first we have Bill Crystal, of course, and then please stick around for the back half of the show.

Speaker 34 Over the weekend, it was the 25th anniversary of Columbine, and we have Tom Mauser, whose son died at Columbine, has been an activist for gun safety legislation over the past two decades.

Speaker 34 I'm excited to talk to him. But, first, Bill Crystal, we got to do a little bit of a Ukraine victory lap for you.

Speaker 34 You, you know, believed in the great and good American people and the fact that leaders like Mike Johnson might emerge. You were hopeful.

Speaker 35 I was hopeful, but I am a little surprised at the sudden pivot by Speaker Mike Johnson.

Speaker 35 But credit to him, credit to I think the Biden administration and President Biden personally, a little more public pressure might be good, but I think they did a good job of letting him do it himself and get the credit, so to speak.

Speaker 35 Some of those other Republicans in the House, Mike McCall, the chairman of foreign relations, I think did a lot to pave the way for Johnson and the threat of the discharge petition.

Speaker 35 So it came together for now. It's late.
We paid a price. More importantly, the Ukrainians paid a real price for the delay.
But I think it's an awfully good development, obviously.

Speaker 34 Certainly, there's been a delay. No doubt about that.
So, you know, we don't need to do three cheers standing ovation for Mike Johnson here. But it is something, right?

Speaker 34 I wrote in the bullock this morning about this, about the contrast between what Mike Johnson chose to do and the approach of Kevin McCarthy.

Speaker 34 And we've been through this period for however many years now, where the conventional wisdom among Republicans is they've got to suck up to Trump. They've got to oppose Democrats at all costs.

Speaker 34 Giving anything into Democrats is a death sentence. And Kevin tried that approach and he was, you know, the leopards ate his face anyway.

Speaker 34 You know, he was still defenestrated and he didn't get anything out of it. Mike Johnson now has cut a deal, essentially, with the Democrats, you know, where now these four bills are passed.

Speaker 34 Ukraine has the delayed but needed funding. And it's going to be really hard for them to overthrow him.
I mean, next year, maybe they could overthrow him.

Speaker 34 But if he has Democratic votes, then there aren't enough Republicans to get rid of him. And so that's a pretty good deal for Mike Johnson.

Speaker 34 And, you know, maybe this kind of more, which is historically, right, Bill, kind of how Congress used to work, right?

Speaker 34 Like this approach where you actually cut deals and negotiate and, you know, are collegial. Is there a little green shoot here? A little note of optimism.

Speaker 35 There is. Here's a question, Tim.
Does Mike Johnson want Donald Trump to win the presidency, actually?

Speaker 35 I mean, does he sort of have in the back of his mind that, you know what, I'm going to take half the Republican conference away from Trump.

Speaker 35 I'm going to let Joe Biden say for the next six months to the Nikki Haley, Ronald Reagan Republicans, Trump is not with you on this most fundamental issue. Mike Johnson says he's a Reagan Republican.

Speaker 35 He's not with Trump. You guys should support me.
He's not going to get most, obviously, of Mike Johnson's supporters, but he can get some Republican votes.

Speaker 35 It could be a key wedge issue to pry away a few more non-Trump Republicans.

Speaker 35 Maybe Mike Johnson thinks, you know what, that way we keep the House maybe, and Trump's not president and I have to put up up with Trump.

Speaker 35 Is that possible that Mike Johnson is thinking that in a cunning way?

Speaker 34 I don't think he's that cunning. What I really think is that we have the Mike Johnson is the Mike Pence situation.

Speaker 34 And for all of my complaints on the sexual mores of devout evangelical Christians, and I have many complaints with the evangelical movement, I think that Mike Johnson was appealed to by Ukrainian Christians and by seeing the damage in the skiff.

Speaker 34 And I think that unlike Donald Trump, he is not a person that has no no empathy and i think that he has some real religious belief and i think he was a reagan republican is kind of faking the mega thing and i also think that he saw that the democrats were willing to deal with him and they could protect him so i i think it's probably that a little bit of earnest a little short-term savvy more than a long-term hopeful pivot back to you know reaganism or whatever a globally minded uh conservative strong america movement but um i'll take the smaller ball win though too totally i mean some of the pro-Ukraine activists really did bring over evangelicals, Baptists, and people who've been in Ukraine, either Americans who've been there or Ukrainians, actually, to make the religious liberty case to Johnson and to counteract the Russian propaganda, obviously, on the Christian stuff.

Speaker 35 So that I think helped. And I do think it's important going forward.
It seems to me it's easier for Nikki Haley to stay where Mike Pence is and not support Trump.

Speaker 35 I mean, this is such a fundamental issue. Mike Johnson has broken with Trump on it.
Half the House Republicans, half the Senate Republicans basically are not with Trump on it.

Speaker 35 Much easier, I think, for Nikki Haley to not go with Trump now. And I think that gives more of a permission structure with Pence and Haley out there for

Speaker 35 more Republicans to, if not go to Biden, at least not support Trump.

Speaker 34 I agree with that. In morning shots today, in the newsletter, you take a more of a forward-looking approach.
There's been a success here. Now, how can Democrats press the advantage?

Speaker 34 You urge Biden to maybe take a note from FDR's messaging back in the early 1940s and reference a speech that he gave following the Lend-Lease Act. Let's just play a little bit of it.

Speaker 34 Let's give people some archival audio this morning.

Speaker 36 Do not let us waste time in reviewing the past

Speaker 36 or fixing or dodging the blame of it.

Speaker 36 History cannot be rewritten by wishful thinking.

Speaker 36 We, the American people, are writing new history today.

Speaker 36 The big news,

Speaker 36 the big news story of this week is this.

Speaker 36 The world has been told that we as a United Nations realize the danger that confronts us and that to meet that danger, our democracy has gone into action.

Speaker 34 I love that. Our democracy has gone into action.
What do you want Biden to take from that, Bill?

Speaker 35 I think he should probably give a major speech now. I mean, FDR, this is pointed out to me by a friend who knows this stuff much better than I.

Speaker 35 Lend Leeds passed on March 11th, 1941, a very important, obviously not gesture, very important, way of supporting Britain and others standing up to a few other nations standing up to the Nazis.

Speaker 35 And FDR signed it that night. He gave the speech on March 15th, four days later.

Speaker 35 And it really, the speech was pretty famous at the time, I gather, and was kind of a real statement that we are in this, we're not backing away, we're the arsenal of democracy. Obviously, U.S.

Speaker 35 troops were not committed. But it's very, in that way, quite comparable to the Ukraine situation.
We're all in with our allies, short at providing troops.

Speaker 35 And that was, I think, an important signal and an important statement by FDR, kind of a moving speech, if you listen to the whole thing or read it.

Speaker 35 And President Biden, I think one criticism that's somewhat fair is that he hasn't fully made the case for Ukraine and the broader case for American foreign policy in the 21st century, the contrast to Trump?

Speaker 35 He's done it at times, but it's time to lay that out. And this is a good time to take advantage of the victory and really bring home to people this fundamental distinction.

Speaker 35 Everyone says voters don't vote on foreign policy, but I don't know, some chunk of voters are going to say this is just a 180-degree difference between the two of them.

Speaker 35 And here's Biden with the support of Mike Pence and Mike Johnson and Nikki Haley on this issue. And aren't we closer to him and aren't we more comfortable with him as president than Donald Trump?

Speaker 34 Aaron Ross Powell, yeah, and this coalition government, that's really, and look, if you look at what happened, essentially, you have basically the entire Democratic Party, with the exception of a few, some votes on Israel, which we'll get to next, united on this with about half of the Republican Party.

Speaker 34 You wish it'd be more than half, but about half. And, you know, that was the coalition that got this passed.

Speaker 34 And Biden needs to speak to that full group, you know, I think, going ahead to the election in November and say, we can responsibly co-govern together.

Speaker 34 By the way, that's the coalition that got infrastructure passed and chips passed, and you can advance a broader story that really isolates, pun intended, Donald Trump, right, and the kind of isolationist wing of the party as being very extreme and irresponsible and an outlier, I guess, at this point.

Speaker 34 But you have to make that case to people.

Speaker 35 You do.

Speaker 35 And there'll be a little Democratic resistance because it slightly cuts against the every Republican in Washington needs to be thrown out and every Republican House member needs to be defeated, because here's Biden will be saying, well, in this case, half of them have behaved responsibly.

Speaker 35 And he'll praise, obviously, Speaker Johnson if he gives such a speech. But I think that's the price you have to pay.
Ultimately, those races will have their own dynamic.

Speaker 35 And it's much more important to capitalize on this moment and really try to marginalize Trump, try to marginalize MAGA. I mean, he can't really be marginalized.
He's the nominee of the party.

Speaker 35 But still, nominee of a party with only half the party supporting you on a major fundamental issue, that's not as strong as being the nominee of the party with the whole party lockstep behind you.

Speaker 34 Okay. On the Israel side of things, a lot of protests this weekend, most notably at Columbia University.
A pretty horrific scene, you know, death to Jews being chanted by these protesters.

Speaker 34 Now, it's a little bit analogous to the Charlottesville situation in that like it's not 100% clear. Like these might be agitators, right? Like, are they Columbia students?

Speaker 34 You know, a lot of this is happening outside the university. These massive protests, Jewish students on campus feeling unsafe, feeling like they need to leave campus, given the nature of the shout.

Speaker 34 Some of these chants are like literally pro-Hamas, like burn Tel Aviv to the ground type rhetoric. Pretty alarming.
There's some examples of this also on other campuses. What can be done about this?

Speaker 34 What are your impressions? What should the Biden administration be doing, if anything?

Speaker 35 I think the main thing that can be done is colleges and universities have to enforce their rules or create new rules against certain types of demonstrations, against encampments on campus, against microphones and bullhorns being used within, I'm making this up, obviously, 100 yards of the library or classroom buildings or dorms.

Speaker 35 I mean, there are lots of ways to damp this down that don't require changing the minds of the hundred students who were involved or even being able fully to control the people who gather outside the gates of the campus.

Speaker 35 Though I think you could also control a little bit what's happening right outside the campus in coordination with the police. The colleges and universities have been just too timid, I think.

Speaker 35 And these are college campuses. They're supposed to be places for fun and for study and a certain amount of rule-abiding protest, obviously, but not the scenes you see at Columbia and elsewhere.

Speaker 35 That's not a college campus. And that, I think, is very, it's very legitimate for colleges to crack down on that.

Speaker 35 And they don't have to begin every statement by saying we honor and respect everyone's right to protest.

Speaker 35 And we, I mean, fine, of course, people have a right to protest, but they don't have a right to take over a huge chunk of a college campus with microphones and bullhorns and encampments and then harass other students or make it easier for outsiders to come and harass other students with whom they disagree.

Speaker 34 Aaron Powell, the Biden administration did put out a statement this weekend. I looked and I did a quick scan this morning.
Some of the Democrats have Adam Schiff, Jackie Rosen.

Speaker 34 I saw there are some other Democratic senders, but I do think a fair critique of the Democrats is there should be a forceful criticism of this that is equal in tone and measure to what the type of criticism would be if there were other minority groups that were being shouted down on college campuses like this.

Speaker 34 And I think that Biden is doing the right thing. But to me, I think that's kind of the Democrats' responsibility here is to speak very clearly against this.

Speaker 34 And you've seen some of it, but I think more is more in this case.

Speaker 35 Yeah, I agree. And I do think it's the right thing to do.
It really is the right thing to do, I think, for the sake of college students, for the sake of Jewish students and

Speaker 35 Jews, honestly, in America generally, but for the sake of all minorities, that this won't be tolerated. And politically, I do think it would help Biden.

Speaker 35 I mean, I think it's not quite fair, but I just see so many people, people I know even saying, well, this is the Democratic Party. Well, no, that's not the Democratic Party.

Speaker 35 That's a bunch of left-wing protesters who hate what Biden's done by standing with his. But you know how it is.

Speaker 35 You do need to go the extra mile almost to distance yourself from the people who can semi-plausibly be said to be your friends, right? And we do ask that of Republicans sometimes.

Speaker 35 Usually we, of course, get no positive response at all, you know, criticize Trump for advocating

Speaker 35 neo-Nazi. But in this case, it would be wise, wise, I think, for the administration and other Democrats to go the extra step in really making clear this is not part of the liberalism they stand for.

Speaker 34 Totally agree. Okay, a short one this week, Bill, because I want to spend some time with Tom Mauser.
Thanks for doing this. We'll be back next Monday, as always.
And up next, Tom Mauser.

Speaker 37 Some moments in your life stay with you forever.

Speaker 40 In a special segment of On Purpose, I share a story about a book that changed my life early in my journey and how I was able to find the exact same edition on eBay years years later.

Speaker 43 There are certain books that don't just give you information, they shift the way you see the world.

Speaker 44 I remember reading one when I was younger that completely changed me.

Speaker 45 Years later, I found myself thinking about that book again.

Speaker 46 I wanted the same edition back.

Speaker 47 Not a reprint, not a different cover, that exact one.

Speaker 45 So I started searching and that's when I found it on eBay. That's what I love about eBay.

Speaker 40 It's not just a marketplace, it's a place where stories live. Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.

Speaker 38 eBay, things people love.

Speaker 42 Listen to On Purpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 10 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 18 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 22 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 23 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 12 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 26 One thing's for sure: the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 29 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 37 Some moments in your life stay with you forever.

Speaker 40 In a special segment of On Purpose, I share a story about a book that changed my life early in my journey and how I was able to find the exact same edition on eBay years later.

Speaker 43 There are certain books that don't just give you information, they shift the way you see the world.

Speaker 44 I remember reading one when I was younger that completely changed me.

Speaker 45 Years later, I found myself thinking about that book again.

Speaker 46 I wanted the same edition back.

Speaker 47 Not a reprint, not a different cover, that exact one.

Speaker 45 So I started searching, and that's when I found it on eBay. That's what I love about eBay.

Speaker 40 It's not just a marketplace, it's a place where stories live. Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.

Speaker 38 eBay, things people love.

Speaker 42 Listen to On Purpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 4 Get Ready for Malice: a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 10 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 18 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 22 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 23 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 12 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 26 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 29 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 34 All right, we were back with Tom Mauser, author of Walking in Daniel's Shoes: A Father's Journey Through Controversy, Activism, and Healing following his son's death at Columbine, his son Daniel Mauser.

Speaker 34 You can learn more about it at danielmauser.com. We really appreciate his courage that he has been speaking out about gun safety and gun legislation ever since the Columbine massacre 25 years ago.

Speaker 34 We're 25 years on now, and he's coming at us from, I just heard, I guess, the same house in Littleton, Colorado that you were in back in 1999.

Speaker 33 That's right.

Speaker 34 We have this little quasi connection I've felt as I've been kind of reading about Daniel and watching him because I grew up, where is the house? Where are you? It's in Littleton, like near Columbine?

Speaker 33 Yeah, it's about two miles south of Columbine High School.

Speaker 34 So I grew grew up right on Plaque Canyon there, and I'm about the same age as Daniel was. I was going to private school, Regis, when it happened.

Speaker 34 And yet, Columbine was my public school district and knew some kids there. And

Speaker 34 I've been watching all these videos of Daniel and thinking about him.

Speaker 34 And maybe you could start us off by telling the listeners a little bit about him, and then we can get into the policy side of things.

Speaker 33 Sure. Daniel was a very, very shy, gentle kid.
He was a Boy Scout, played piano, loved to play video games.

Speaker 33 What I most admired about Daniel was the fact that he took on his weaknesses. He was not really out at all athletic, and yet he chose on his own to try out for the cross-country team.

Speaker 33 He was so shy, and yet he joined the debate team where he had to get in front of other people and speak.

Speaker 34 Yeah, I was wondering. So he's on the speaker.
Was it at Columbine that he was on the debate team when he was giving speeches? Because I was kind of wondering, maybe I had encountered him.

Speaker 34 I was a speech nerd and did speech speech club and was watching a video of him giving an FDR speech. Actually, we have the video of it.

Speaker 34 So, if you don't mind, I just can maybe play a couple of seconds of him. Earlier in the show, we were talking to Bill Crystal, and he was referencing a FDR speech about the Lend-Lease Act.

Speaker 34 And when I was going through your page, your memorial page, I thought it was touching that he was also doing an FDR speech about the first inaugural. So, let's listen to a little bit of that.

Speaker 48 Now, we got me saying,

Speaker 48 Just relax. Take this.

Speaker 48 This is Franklin D. Roosevelt's first inaugural address given on Saturday, March 4th, 1933.

Speaker 48 I am certain that my fellow Americans expect that on my induction into the presidency, I will address them with the candor and a decision which the present situation of our nation impels.

Speaker 48 This is preeminently the time to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. This great nation will endure as it has always endured, will revive and will prosper.

Speaker 34 Like I was in speech competition, right? Where you gave famous speeches. Is that what that was? It was for a class.

Speaker 35 Yeah.

Speaker 34 I thought it was just really appropriate, right? Like that we'll tell the truth, the whole truth frankly and boldly. And that's kind of what you decided to take on right after this happened.

Speaker 34 Talk about that.

Speaker 33 Yeah, it was really an easy choice for me because about two weeks before the tragedy of Columbine, Daniel brought home to the dinner table to me something he had been in discussions with with other kids in the debate class.

Speaker 33 He said, Dad, did you know there were loopholes in the Brady bill? And I just said, oh, really?

Speaker 33 I didn't really get that engaged in it. And then two weeks later, he was killed with a gun that was bought through one of those loopholes in the Brady bill.
the gun show loophole.

Speaker 33 The killers at Columbine bought three of their four guns at a gun show and purposely went to the table of a private seller so they didn't have to get put on the radar or have to fill out any paperwork.

Speaker 33 So to me, that was a sign. How could I not follow up on Daniel asking me that question? Did you know there were loopholes in the Brady bill?

Speaker 34 Was that common? Was he interested in politics and government, or

Speaker 34 was it just a

Speaker 34 one-off?

Speaker 33 I think it was somewhat of a one-off. I think he was interested in a lot of issues.
And he was more of a

Speaker 33 math and science kid. So politics wasn't a particularly big thing for him.
You know, we talked a bit about it

Speaker 33 around our home, but not that much.

Speaker 34 So that loophole that he mentioned to you at the dinner table that kind of inspired your activism, it's a quarter century later that that finally has essentially been closed given the legislation that was passed in the Biden administration.

Speaker 34 You got to go to the White House to talk about that. So talk about the importance of that and that journey.

Speaker 34 It's going to to be exciting that that happened, but also kind of disappointing that it's taken so long, right? I don't know. Talk about how you feel about all that.

Speaker 33 Yeah, it's a real mixed bag. I mean, we had the great joy of in year 2000 closing that loophole in Colorado.
We took it to a vote of the people. We put it on the ballot.

Speaker 33 70% of the people voted yes to close that gun show loophole. But it's always bothered me that it still exists in most states in this nation.
So it's just so common sense.

Speaker 33 And I think we got got 70% of the vote because we were real clear when I was spokesman for the campaign, I would just say to people, does it make sense to you that someone who was a spouse abuser or a felon could walk into a gun show and at one table they couldn't buy a gun because they had to go through a background check.

Speaker 33 Oh, but they can go to the table of a private seller and no background check, no paperwork. Does that make sense? And I think people get it.
No, it doesn't make any sense at all.

Speaker 34 What do you attribute then, I mean, since you've been kind of on the front lines of this fight, like to the

Speaker 34 overall lack of action, I mean, there are these positive green issues, like you said, to Colorado. There's been some positive movement, particularly lately in the Polis administration.

Speaker 34 But this stuff, I mean, I, you know, came from a conservative background.

Speaker 34 I have to tell you, like, at the time when Columbine happened, it was such a it just felt like such a black swan, a one-off to me that, you know, the debate is raging.

Speaker 34 And, you know, I was kind of in this view of like, oh, there are maybe different things that could make sense, right? The gun show loophole closing seems obvious.

Speaker 34 I was kind of compelled at the time by the good guy with the gun theory, which has been just absurdly disproven in the intervening years.

Speaker 34 But when it was a one-off situation, I was like, oh, maybe it would have been better if there was a security guard there with a gun.

Speaker 34 But as these shootings have piled up and as you've had to go out there and continually campaign year after year, what do you attribute to just the resistance to so many of these common sense reforms?

Speaker 33 I think it's a combination of things. I think part of it is fear.
Part of it is really driven, I think, by the gun industry.

Speaker 33 I mean, they're a business.

Speaker 33 They want to sell more guns and they always have to find a way. So they turn it into an issue of freedom.
And that's not what it's about.

Speaker 33 And also, I think they've just really tried to demonize those of us

Speaker 33 who are trying to fight for some stronger gun laws.

Speaker 33 We're so far from anything like confiscation, you know, the the way they build up fear about confiscation.

Speaker 33 And unfortunately, I think the media plays a little bit of a role in this, that this is sometimes brought, you know, boiled down to being you're either pro-gun or anti-gun. I am not anti-gun.

Speaker 33 I am anti-gun violence. And frankly, some of the things that we're doing law-wise, we're really just scratching the surface of this problem.

Speaker 33 You know, we're going to continue to have an awful lot of gun deaths in this country. I mean, you have 400 million firearms.
I mean, how much can you do?

Speaker 33 And I think we're trying to do what we can, you know, especially especially things like the red flag law, age of purchase, waiting period, things like that, to reduce the toll, certainly.

Speaker 33 But yeah, the resistance is really frustrating. I think it's resistance, especially, is built on a lot of clichés, a lot of dismissive clichés.
And unfortunately, a lot of people fall for that.

Speaker 33 And then you add to that the fact that this has become such a polarized issue now. You know, one party says, let's have stronger gun laws.
The other says no.

Speaker 33 And this should not be a partisan issue.

Speaker 35 It should not.

Speaker 34 In that community, Littleton, it's not like some liberal community, you know. Back then, I mean, Tom Tancredo was the representative, I think, at the time during Columbine, right?

Speaker 35 That's right.

Speaker 33 And even within the families of Columbine, you know, we had, you know, very different opinions about

Speaker 33 the gun issue.

Speaker 34 What was that like with the other parents? I mean, I would assume that there was very kind of supportive, but I don't know. What was it like in the years after that?

Speaker 33 You mean on the gun issue?

Speaker 34 Yeah, yeah. And like how much to speak out and what to do versus, you know, to talk about it versus not.

Speaker 33 Well, I would say that back at that time, you know, we knew there were differing opinions.

Speaker 33 And yet when I brought the issue of closing the gun show loophole to the group of families, because we were meeting on a regular basis to, you know, build a new library, tear out the old library at Columbia and build a new one.

Speaker 33 When I brought this issue of Amendment 22 to close the gun show loophole, I think almost every one of those parents signed the petition. So they, you know, they understood that that part of it.

Speaker 33 Some of them weren't really willing to go beyond that. But I think

Speaker 33 we kind of respected each other's opinions on it.

Speaker 34 And you took a lot of heat for that. I mean, like, there was protests outside your home.
Is that right? In the years that follow?

Speaker 33 Yeah, there was a protest outside of my home. And yeah, hate mail,

Speaker 33 nasty, nasty mail, intimidation, threats.

Speaker 35 Yeah.

Speaker 33 And I've, you know, I found out from other

Speaker 33 activists like myself.

Speaker 33 It kind of goes with the territory. Right.

Speaker 34 They're trying to bully you. And that's even happening to this day.
There's the local kind of even more extreme version of the NRA in Colorado is run by this guy Dudley Brown.

Speaker 34 And they're still out there,

Speaker 34 trolling you and attacking you. Are there other folks

Speaker 34 that that's worked on? Do you think that there's been silencing of families because people are just afraid to deal with these guys?

Speaker 33 I'll give you one example. And it's what really, in a way, kept me in this fight.
And it was late in 99. I got a call from somebody from Massachusetts.

Speaker 33 There had been a mass shooting there with an assault rifle. And the woman asked me, she indicated that their family was thinking of speaking out publicly against assault weapons.

Speaker 33 But she asked me the question, do you get a lot of pushback? You know, what is that like?

Speaker 33 And I had to be honest with her. Yeah, there is pushback, there's hate, but, you know, it's an important cause.
And then she said, well,

Speaker 33 one of my brothers lives in Arkansas, so he's really concerned about this.

Speaker 33 And we never did hear from that family. They didn't speak out.
And I think that's the point.

Speaker 33 I feel that to some extent, I'm speaking for those who feel that they just can't get into this issue because it is, there is a lot of pushback.

Speaker 34 I'm just wondering, in some ways, it's kind of crazy to me that you're still in Littleton. I don't know.

Speaker 34 It's hard to, it's impossible for me to put myself in your shoes, but I just think about all of that, right?

Speaker 34 You think about, you know, having to drive by Columbine, there are protests outside your house. Why have did you decide to stick in, stay in this fight, stay in Littleton?

Speaker 34 What is it about, you know, that comes from inside?

Speaker 33 Yeah, I mean, I like the community that we're in.

Speaker 33 To me, there was nothing wrong with that school or that community, although we couldn't send our two daughters to Columbine more because of us, not because I thought it was unsafe.

Speaker 33 But, you know, I like the community. I like the house I'm living in.
You know, put a lot into the place. And there was nothing wrong with this home.
So why should I leave it?

Speaker 34 I was listening to another one of your interviews and you kind of described yourself as you said that we were just a normal family that had normal interests and that you were kind of introverted and this was not something that was natural to you.

Speaker 34 Talk about that kind of transformation, kind of how you dealt with this, you know, how this upended your life.

Speaker 33 Yeah, you know, one way that it upended it, I tell people that even though I am an introvert, I also have a very active sense of humor.

Speaker 33 I'm a great joke teller, and I had a reputation at conferences in the transit field that I worked in of doing humorous slideshows.

Speaker 33 And I've done them here in Colorado at conferences and I've actually been asked in other states to go at their conferences and do a funny slideshow. I liked making people laugh.

Speaker 35 And then Columbine happened.

Speaker 33 And all of a sudden, I found myself,

Speaker 33 I wasn't making people laugh. When I spoke to audiences, I was making them cry.
That part was a really tough part for me.

Speaker 33 Now, even though I was an introvert, when I was there doing the humorous slideshows,

Speaker 33 I'm sort of a different persona. I'm kind of in control and, yeah, make people laugh.

Speaker 34 Do you have a favorite joke right now or is joke telling in the past? You have a dad joke?

Speaker 33 Oh, no, I returned to it.

Speaker 33 I very much returned to it. It took a few years to really get comfortable doing it again because I knew that some people would say, oh, gee, you know, he's a grieving father.

Speaker 33 You know, what is he doing this for? For me, that's part of the healing

Speaker 35 for sure. going back.

Speaker 33 And the way I really look at it is, what would Daniel want? Would he want me to have my total life completely changed and just in deep grief and not able to go on? No, he wouldn't want that.

Speaker 33 And that doesn't mean that I don't grieve and that I don't have, I still have problems when I speak publicly. Even 25 years later, I get choked up.
Sometimes, you know, a little bit of a sob.

Speaker 33 But no, I think Daniel would want me to return to that life.

Speaker 33 And by honoring him in the way that I do, I feel that kind of goes with it. That I've returned to that life, but I've also reminded the world who Daniel was.

Speaker 34 I agree with that. I just think it's so important.
That's why one of the reasons why I want to have this conversation is

Speaker 34 the right thing to do is to talk about and remember and humanize the people that were victimized by all these shootings, right?

Speaker 34 Like rather than obsessing over the killers and in the hopes that that will, well, A, they deserve that, but B, in the hopes that that will help make people think about this thing differently.

Speaker 34 If you're silencing all that and putting that away and putting it in a box, or it's a shameful place, right, then that doesn't people should be forced to be confronted with it.

Speaker 33 Right, they should be. And I think especially someone who

Speaker 33 is a very lost teenager.

Speaker 33 I've heard from a number of people through the website and through YouTube saying that they kind of at one point sympathized with the killers, that they were also kind of loners and lost, mad at the world.

Speaker 33 And they told me that by reading the website, they had a little bit of understanding of the other side, that they were focused too much reading about the killers and identifying with them.

Speaker 33 I think it's great when they see the victims and understand that side of it.

Speaker 34 Yeah, that website's DanielMauser.com. What do other parents, obviously this has just been so expanded now, after all these, and even in Colorado,

Speaker 34 Q and other shootings there, but obviously Parkland and Uvalde.

Speaker 34 I'm like, this is macabre, I guess, but it's like you're kind of like an elder statesman at this point of this, like, because you're talking to these other parents, right?

Speaker 34 Like, do you feel an obligation to kind of do that, or is that just too much of a burden? I don't know. It's hard for me to imagine.

Speaker 33 Yeah, a little bit of a burden, but you know, in a way, it's sort of I need to bring them along. I need them to see that I'm still doing okay

Speaker 33 and that you can do this and still be okay.

Speaker 33 And frankly, another part of it is that as unfortunately we have more of these tragedies, we have more people stepping forward and speaking out.

Speaker 33 And we want to encourage that because people do kind of relate to that. They kind of see that it's not just a story in the news.
These are real people.

Speaker 33 And what it's also meant for me is that if you go back 10 and 15 years ago in the Colorado legislature, there were two of us pretty much who were doing 80% of the testifying.

Speaker 35 Wow. Really?

Speaker 33 Really.

Speaker 33 Today, we have many more people who've stepped forward and joined the board of Colorado Ceasefire and some of the other organizations in our coalition, and they're going down to the Capitol and testifying.

Speaker 33 Used to be we were greatly outnumbered by our opponents in testifying. Now today, it's the reverse.
We tend to very much outnumber them.

Speaker 33 So it's kind of lightened the burden on me because I don't feel that obligation to be testifying all the time because other people are willing to do it.

Speaker 34 There has been a significant amount of progress in Colorado. I think it's probably worth talking about that a little bit with the red flag laws.

Speaker 34 And what has happened and what do you think are the most

Speaker 34 important things that have passed and like most important outstanding policies?

Speaker 33 Well, you know, we have raised the age for purchasing a long gun from 18 to 21. We have a waiting period.

Speaker 33 Another important one that people just aren't aware of, I think, is that we've made it, as with a few other states, right now, of course, if you're a felon, you can't purchase a firearm. But

Speaker 33 if you're guilty of a misdemeanor, you can still purchase. But now in Colorado, if you were guilty of a misdemeanor that involved violence for five years, you can't purchase a firearm.

Speaker 33 That's common sense because studies show that if you commit a violent misdemeanor, there's a much higher probability that it'll get worse.

Speaker 34 A lot of times those are felonies that have been downgraded.

Speaker 33 Yep, they've been plea bargained down. We have a waiting period, but I think really one of the most significant is the red flag law.

Speaker 33 I think that one is so important, not so much because of potential for mass shootings, but especially with suicides. Domestic arguments.
I just love taking on the ridiculous arguments of my opponents.

Speaker 33 They often have said, you know, quit passing these laws that just punish the law-abiding citizen. Deal with the people who were the real danger.
Right. Well, that's what red flag does.

Speaker 34 Okay, deal, yeah.

Speaker 33 Yeah, okay. Here's someone who's shown signs like the Aurora Theater shooter.
They didn't know what to do with him. They knew he was a danger.
They couldn't do anything. Now you can with red flag.

Speaker 33 And yet my opponents still opposed the red flag law. I mean, it does what they, you know, said we should be doing.

Speaker 35 So.

Speaker 34 And that horrible shooting at the gay bar in Colorado Springs was just such a prime example of this. And it's tragic that that had to happen in order to spur this.

Speaker 34 But it's just like there were so many different red flags, and the local sheriff's department down there just didn't act on it.

Speaker 33 Didn't act on it. And then we followed up by saying, well, how did he get a hold of high-capacity magazines, you know, given that they're not legal in Colorado?

Speaker 33 And he said, well, I don't know, but didn't get them in my county. Well, we did some research.

Speaker 33 We went to, I think, about 32 gun stores in his county, El Paso County, and found that roughly half of them were selling high-capacity magazines in violation of the law.

Speaker 33 So either we're going to have respect for the law or we're not going to have any sanity when it comes to gun laws.

Speaker 37 Some moments in your life stay with you forever.

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Speaker 29 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 37 Some moments in your life stay with you forever.

Speaker 40 In a special segment of On Purpose, I share a story about a book that changed my life early in my journey and how I was able to find the exact same edition on eBay years later.

Speaker 43 There are certain books that don't just give you information, they shift the way you see the world.

Speaker 44 I remember reading one when I was younger that completely changed me.

Speaker 45 Years later, I found myself thinking about that book again.

Speaker 46 I wanted the same edition back.

Speaker 47 Not a reprint, not a different cover, that exact one.

Speaker 45 So I started searching and that's when I found it on eBay. That's what I love about eBay.

Speaker 40 It's not just a marketplace, it's a place where stories live. Shop eBay eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.

Speaker 38 eBay, things people love.

Speaker 42 Listen to OnPurpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 4 Get Ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 10 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 18 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 22 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 23 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 12 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 26 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 2 Watch Malice.

Speaker 30 All episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 34 What about federally? What's the next 10 year with the White House? And actually just talk about what that was like being at the White House for this last week.

Speaker 33 It was very satisfying.

Speaker 33 I think back to the election of 2000 where the NRA said, you know, if George Bush gets elected, we will have an office in the White House.

Speaker 33 Well, now we instead have an office of gun violence prevention in the White House. So to me, that's a really big step.
We're talking about prevention. And my message when I was back in D.C.

Speaker 33 last week was,

Speaker 33 thank you. It's great that we have this.

Speaker 33 So glad to see that we've essentially closed the gun show loophole and required more background checks. And yet at the same time, come on, it took 25 years after Columbine for this to happen.

Speaker 33 We shouldn't have to wait another 25 years for significant legislation.

Speaker 34 Obviously, red flag laws. What other stuff are the top priorities, would you say, in the gun safety space from a federal perspective?

Speaker 33 I think federal and state, and maybe it's probably better carried out more at the state level, but I think a really important one is

Speaker 33 the licensing of buyers. If you really want to get serious about gun trafficking, because that's one of the biggest problems we have, is gun trafficking.

Speaker 33 That's how people who aren't eligible to buy a gun often get their gun, is through straw purchases and gun trafficking.

Speaker 33 And it's hard to get a hold of that if you really can't do the tracking of who's making the purchases, who's making the multiple purchases.

Speaker 33 And licensing of those buyers of firearms is a really good way to do that. Missouri used to have that.
It used to have to have a license in Missouri.

Speaker 33 And then they dropped that requirement, threw it away, and their gun deaths went up. Connecticut did the opposite.
They added it, and their gun deaths went down.

Speaker 33 That's another one of those common sense things. And I realize it just, it scares those who say, oh, this is, no, this is an infringement on my rights.
No, it isn't.

Speaker 33 It's doing something positive.

Speaker 34 Yeah, there's a lot of areas you have to get licensed for.

Speaker 34 That's not that

Speaker 34 unique. I think politically, I'm glad this happened in Colorado.
Politically, I've been really ringing the bell about the age requirement. We have a lot of problems with gun deaths in the country.

Speaker 34 So this is probably not going to solve a lot of the individual murders.

Speaker 34 But at least with regards to these mass school shootings, a 16-year-old, 18-year-old, it should be illegal for them to have a high-capacity weapon.

Speaker 34 There's no reason for them to have one outside of a gun range, you know, with supervised by a parent. It's insane.
I think that this is a 90-10 issue.

Speaker 34 I think that Democrats should be able to run on this. You can imagine the ads.
And so to me, that one I think is just so critical.

Speaker 33 It is. I mean, the brain is just not developed fully yet.
And an 18-year-old boy, you know, and opponents will say, oh, but we're okay with them serving in the military and having a firearm.

Speaker 33 Yes, that's right. Under controlled conditions.
You know,

Speaker 33 they don't take that assault rifle back to the barracks with them. You know, it's locked up.
They know where the weapon is. They know where the ammunition is.
It's a very different kind of thing.

Speaker 34 I've always felt like the high-capacity magazines are another one that is potentially fruitful, I think, both politically and passable and legally.

Speaker 34 It kind of hits all the spots because it is kind of hard to, I mean, I guess you can lump high-capacity magazines into the Second Amendment, but you're really starting to strain your argument that they were thinking about that.

Speaker 34 Have you done any advocacy on that issue?

Speaker 33 Oh, definitely. And we outlawed the high-capacity magazines in 2013 in Colorado.
We limited the magazines to 15 rounds.

Speaker 34 You could even sell me on six, probably.

Speaker 33 If you can't take down those intruders coming to your home, I don't think we have, you know, home intrusions of 10 to 20 people.

Speaker 33 I mean, if you really want to get serious about it, I say even go down to 10.

Speaker 33 These are not combat conditions that we need to have the high-capacity magazines.

Speaker 34 You don't need 10 shots to kill a deer.

Speaker 33 You're not much of a hunter if you're using an assault rifle with 20 rounds.

Speaker 35 That's true. That's true.

Speaker 34 What's next for you? I mean, this was kind of a big moment. Where do things go from here?

Speaker 34 You might have earned a retirement, Tom. I don't know.
Pass the baton?

Speaker 33 Yeah, I would say after 25 years, you know, like I said, I'm testifying less. Other people have stepped forward.
And I'm not getting any younger. I'm 72.
I'm thinking that this is,

Speaker 33 you know, not certainly something I'm going to get out of, but, you know, maybe a little bit different role.

Speaker 33 I like doing the public speaking at churches and other groups with the goal of getting more people involved.

Speaker 33 One of the main things that I sort of preach is that in my movement, we do way too much preaching to the choir.

Speaker 33 Within our own silo, our own echo chamber, we're talking about why we've got to make these changes. And we have to get out more to all those people in the middle.

Speaker 33 I mean, the reality is in America, the majority of Americans support and want their right to bear arms.

Speaker 33 The reality also is that more than half of Americans agree with the need to have restrictions on that right to bear arms.

Speaker 33 So a lot of people in the middle, we need to reach more of those people in the middle. Although, frankly, I don't get a lot of opportunities to do that.

Speaker 33 You know, normally when I speak, I'm preaching to the choir. I want to find more opportunities where we get both sides of the argument together.

Speaker 33 We did that at my church a few years back where concealed weapons instructor and I spoke in front of my church. The problem was, we had our church members who were very much on my side.

Speaker 33 He didn't get any of his people there, so it really wasn't as good a discussion as it could have been. But we need to talk through these things.
We really do.

Speaker 34 Yeah, I agree with that. And message too.
I think sometimes people in the gun safety movement are hesitant to even try to message in red areas.

Speaker 34 There are some counterexamples of this, right? But you're talking about the middle, and I think the boulder kind of qualifies as a middle. But I think even in more red areas,

Speaker 34 again, these issues that we've been talking about, 21-year limit, making sure people have

Speaker 34 had crimes committed, misdemeanor, violent crimes. I think if messaged in the right way and talked about the right way, there's going to be a lot of people that in Georgia and in Florida.

Speaker 34 And look at what happened in Florida after Parkland, right? Some of the momentum got lost from that. But I mean, after Parkland, it was Rick Scott that signed the red flag law.

Speaker 34 I think that if with the consistency of message and credible messengers and speaking to the broader elements of the gun restrictions, I think that there really is more progress that can be had, even among pretty conservative audiences.

Speaker 33 I agree. And I think we have to keep sort of the extremes out of this argument, you know, because indeed the other side doesn't want to have that discussion.

Speaker 33 And likewise, people on my side who, for example, are the ones who say, you know, we need to get rid of the Second Amendment. I mean, come on, folks.

Speaker 33 If that's your goal, we're not going to get anywhere. That just sets off the other side when you have talk like that.

Speaker 33 But you really can win more people, but we really have to have more of a common ground. And we have to get it away from the partisan side of it, too.

Speaker 34 I would have been remiss if I don't mention so the rest of your family, Daniel, had two sisters, one, a younger sister that was at the time, what, I guess, in middle school during Columbine?

Speaker 33 Yeah, she was in middle school.

Speaker 34 And then you've since adopted another daughter from China, Madeline. How's the rest of the family doing? And, you know,

Speaker 34 what's it just been like over these last couple decades?

Speaker 33 Well, you know, it's certainly having

Speaker 33 adopted our daughter, that was a really important part of the healing process, I think, for us. You know, and it's not a matter of replacement for Daniel.
It's just

Speaker 33 essentially what we said was that this was a way to give time to a child that we otherwise would have given to Daniel if he had lived.

Speaker 33 I think it was a good healing process for my wife and I, and also for Daniel's younger sister. She was very supportive of the adoption.

Speaker 34 Well, I really admire you guys for that. I admire you for the way you've been stalwart in this fight ever since that tragedy.

Speaker 34 It was a formative day for me, but obviously nothing like what you guys had to go through. So I appreciate that you guys have been the ones taking on that burden.

Speaker 34 And people can go to danielmauser.com, learn more about your family.

Speaker 34 There's some beautiful pictures and videos, and it was a real treat for me to get to learn more about them and kind of reflect back on Littleton and everything that's happened.

Speaker 34 So I appreciate that, Tom. I appreciate you coming on the Bullwork podcast.

Speaker 33 Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Speaker 34 All right. Let's stay in touch.
Maybe we'll we'll see you next time through Denver. We'd love to give you a hug.

Speaker 33 All right. Let's do it.

Speaker 34 All right. I appreciate that.
And to see one of those PowerPoints. I want to see one of those PowerPoints as well.

Speaker 34 All right. Sounds good.
Thank you, everybody. Yeah.
Thank you, Tom Mauser. Thanks, Bill Crystal.
We'll be back tomorrow with another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. See y'all then.
Peace.

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Speaker 49 your dreams for you.

Speaker 34 The Bullwork Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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