Adam Kinzinger: Yes, Russian Propaganda Is Infecting the GOP

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Speaker 27 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

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Speaker 40 Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
I'm just so thrilled to be here with my old pal, former Republican Congressman from Illinois, Jeb Bush and Dorsey. Yeah.

Speaker 40 Endorse sir. Endorse her.
And Endorsey. I think probably mutual.
Senior political commentator for CNN, founder of Country First, which backs pro-democracy candidates. You had a book called Renegade.

Speaker 40 You have a Substack newsletter. You have a child.
You're keeping busy, Kenziger.

Speaker 39 Yeah, I'm trying. You know, when you're not in Congress, you got plenty of time to do other things, like live life and enjoy life.
And, you know.

Speaker 40 Enjoying life is important. We talked about this at the end of the podcast yesterday with Bill Crystal.
And I think that a key constituency for Joe Biden is people who just enjoy life. Yeah.

Speaker 40 You know, these are Joe Biden's core supporters.

Speaker 39 Yeah, they just, they're not angry. They're not like looking for

Speaker 39 some violation of their rights or whatever. You know, they're just

Speaker 40 a violation of the, you know, patriotic correctness. Right.
You know, nobody offended them. There wasn't a trans person giving them coffee this morning.
They're not upset about that.

Speaker 40 Anyway, we'll get into all that. I meant to get to this yesterday and forgot.
And you're the person to talk to it about.

Speaker 40 A couple congressmen, a couple Mics, a couple of your former colleagues, Mike McCall and Mike Turner, current Republicans.

Speaker 40 They both indicated over the weekend that they think some of their colleagues have become susceptible to Russian propaganda and are advancing it. Let's just take a listen real quick.

Speaker 41 Let's turn to Ukraine, an issue that's important to you and your fellow Republican chairman, Michael McCall, who runs the Foreign Affairs Committee.

Speaker 41 Congressman McCall made a comment this week about what he says sounds like Russian propaganda from some conservative media and why it's so difficult to explain to Republican voters why supporting Ukraine is important.

Speaker 41 He told Julia Yaffe, quote, I think Russian propaganda has made its way into the United States, unfortunately, and it's infected a good chunk of my party's base.

Speaker 41 He singled out primetime shows on conservative channels. Do you agree with him, and how big is this problem?

Speaker 42 Oh, it is absolutely true.

Speaker 42 We see directly coming from Russia attempts to mask communications that are anti-Ukraine and pro-Russia messages, some of which we even hear being uttered on the House floor.

Speaker 42 I mean, there are members of Congress today who still incorrectly say that this conflict between Russia and Ukraine is over NATO, which of course it is not.

Speaker 40 Just two Republican congressmen saying

Speaker 40 that

Speaker 40 do you think this would be front page news? Like you have two Republican congressmen saying, my party infected with Russian propaganda. Anyway, what's your take on all that?

Speaker 39 Well, I mean, let's look. In a different world, this has just been like a non-enemy France, right? If they're like, yeah, French propaganda, government of France, people would be outraged.

Speaker 39 This is Russia. This isn't just some, you know, country that we're agnostic about.
This is one of our enemies. Look, they're both right.
Obviously, they're both right.

Speaker 39 But here's what really kind of drives me nuts about that, Tim.

Speaker 39 Yes, they're both right. They're also both going along with the Russian propaganda in the party.

Speaker 39 It's saying, yes, okay, Tim, I'm going to come in front of you because you have an audience that'll react well to this, which is what he did on CNN.

Speaker 39 Yes, Russian propaganda is infecting, and people are going to praise me for saying that.

Speaker 39 But then he goes back today, both of these mics will go back today to Washington, D.C.

Speaker 39 and not pull the trigger on forcing this bill to the floor. Now, maybe they will eventually, but it's been six months of them listening to Russian propaganda.

Speaker 39 And these aren't just two rank-and-file Republicans. These are the two Republicans that are the head of the most powerful committees dealing with this issue, foreign affairs and Intel.

Speaker 39 And yet they'll go on CNN and say it. And again, I don't want to discourage that.
So I'm not sitting here just like crapping all over. But it's like, at the same time, you two alone.

Speaker 40 Yeah.

Speaker 39 Go to Newsmax. Go to Fox.
Put out a tweet. You two alone.

Speaker 39 Without anybody else with you, can guarantee that the aid bill gets on the floor.

Speaker 39 And yet again, it's this, go to the correct, you know, news outlet where you can say the things because nobody on your Fox outlet is going to be watching CNN

Speaker 39 and then just go quiet and let Marjorie Taylor Greene run the day.

Speaker 39 That's what drives me nuts because this isn't just an exercise in what are our tax rates going to be, you know, are the trains going to run on time. This is human life.

Speaker 39 And it just drives me nuts.

Speaker 40 This is the thing that is kind of related to your point, right?

Speaker 40 But it's like, if you've accepted the premise, if you've accepted the premise that the reason why the aid isn't going to Ukraine is because Russian propaganda has infected your party, then there's like a natural response that should follow on to that premise, right?

Speaker 40 That

Speaker 40 I should do something to combat this. I should maybe work with the Democrats.
I should use some procedural maneuvers. I should confront the propaganda, right?

Speaker 40 But it's like they think that that's the end, right? Like they acknowledge that this is happening. That's bad.
But now I don't have to do anything about it. It's not my responsibility.

Speaker 39 It's like, my body is riddled with cancer. Do you want to go to lunch?

Speaker 40 Right?

Speaker 39 It's like, how about, no, how about we take you to the hospital

Speaker 39 so that you can figure out how to get rid of this, right? It's like...

Speaker 40 Chemo is called for over on Newsmax. Yeah.

Speaker 39 Oh, I've never had chemo, but like chemo isn't fun. Everybody I know that's had it, it's brutal, just like taking on Russian propaganda and infection in your party.

Speaker 39 But it's like the two guys, like Mike Turner and Mike McCall, are the most respected on foreign policy left in the the Congress.

Speaker 39 And they'll go on TV and say, Russian propaganda has infected our party. But boy, I'm endorsing Donald Trump for 2024 because, you know, make America great again.

Speaker 40 Do you see these guys in the CNN green room? Not your CNN man, you know, like the remaining normals. Like, are they mad at you because you say this sort of stuff?

Speaker 40 Or do they, are they whispering, hey, I'm with you. Keep going.
Like, what kind of, what are you getting from them?

Speaker 39 So it's like, it's funny. I stay in touch with a lot of people, you know, and they're, they're still polite.

Speaker 39 I try to put myself on the other end, which is like, when I was in Congress, if there was somebody that was kind of critical of what we were doing, would I hate them?

Speaker 39 And the answer is no, because I'm like, I probably would agree with them, you know, in a large part. So most of these folks, yeah, I stay in touch with.

Speaker 39 I mean, there's a few that I've have no contact with. Mike Gallagher is one of those because, you know, he was a huge disappointment on impeachment.

Speaker 39 And I heard your discussion about his early retirement. And I agree.
I mean, Mike Gallagher should be the one right now on the floor of the House of Representatives, shutting the floor down.

Speaker 39 For God's sakes. He's leaving.

Speaker 40 He's got nothing better to do. He's got 10 days.
10 days left. Might as well do something.

Speaker 39 And he's not going to run for office again, obviously, retiring this early. And so, but I stay in touch with most of them.
Look, I get it from their perspective. I don't agree.

Speaker 39 I understand how hard it is to speak out. But like, for God's sakes, this is, this is just such a moment in history.
And I'm not saying this is like just to make a good podcast.

Speaker 39 Like, I really believe, like, in my lifetime, this is the most important thing that we have ever dealt with.

Speaker 40 This being the Ukraine-Russia war or this the democratic threat or the whole kit and caboodle?

Speaker 39 I think it's all of it, but I guess in this context, it's Ukraine. It's the Russian interference.
It's the division in the country. It's like the most important moment.

Speaker 39 And like these guys could get statues in Kyiv built to them. They literally could get, you know, Mike McCall Avenue in downtown Kyiv and they just can't do it.

Speaker 40 Let's talk about what that looks like. So, you know, you're talking about how maybe Gallagher could be shutting down the floor.

Speaker 40 There are a lot of procedural, this is really more my husband's turf than mine once you get into kind of what is happening and the procedure on the Capitol Hill and the arcana of how to, you know, get bills moved to the floor.

Speaker 40 I was never a Hillman, but you were over there. So like, talk about what some of those options are.

Speaker 40 To me, as a...

Speaker 40 As an insider outsider, right, as somebody who knows Washington, but doesn't know the Hill stuff, I'm like, why are these guys getting circles run around them by Matt Gates and Marjorie Taylor Greene?

Speaker 40 Like, it doesn't seem like it's that hard to exert your will if morons like Marjorie Taylor Greene can do it. You know, so like, what could they do? Why aren't they doing it?

Speaker 39 I can get long-winded on this. So, if I am, just give me a signal, right?

Speaker 40 Okay. Yeah.
All right. Here's the thing:

Speaker 39 when you go to Congress, the first thing they tell you is, you know, on procedural votes. Now, procedural votes are things like rules.

Speaker 39 Rules, you have to vote on a rule before any bill or any action on the floor happens. So it's basically the House saying, okay, here's how many minutes of debate, et cetera, et cetera.
Okay.

Speaker 39 So anytime there's a bill that comes on the floor, there has to be a rule vote.

Speaker 40 Before the bill vote, before any amendments, before any motion.

Speaker 39 And before the discussions. Yep.
And so that's one thing. Then you have other stuff, which I won't go into, called like motions to recommit, whatever.
All that is called procedural votes. Okay.

Speaker 39 What it means, it's just governs procedure. When you go to Congress, your party says, look, we all have to vote together on these issues.
And that was the agreement.

Speaker 39 Like, you can disagree with the bill, but you've got to support your party on the floor rules.

Speaker 39 The Freedom Caucus is the ones that started violating that really for the first time, at least in modern history, where they now will vote against rules.

Speaker 39 And what that does is it can shut down the floor from doing anything. So imagine being in D.C.

Speaker 39 for two weeks, and now you have a group of people saying the floor can do nothing, including even really come into session. So that's why they have such power.

Speaker 39 So if there's a group of 10 of us sitting in a room and I hand everybody a hand grenade.

Speaker 40 So just really quick, before we get to the hand grenade analogy for the laymen out there, so when people hear that Mike Johnson isn't bringing something to the floor, part of that is the speaker's discretion, but part of that is because there's a group of people that are like, no, we're not going to let you bring it to the floor because we'll vote down the rule, right?

Speaker 40 Right. That's essentially how it's going.

Speaker 39 They'll like, we'll vote down the rule, and you'll see that in some of the like kind of, you know, keep the government open stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 39 Or they'll, as you see right now, softly threaten him with a motion to vacate. And he doesn't want to get vacated.
And so that's why he's kind of paralyzed.

Speaker 39 And I think he is paralyzed right now, to be honest with you. But if you put 10 people in a room, I give everybody a hand grenade, we all have the equal amount of power, right?

Speaker 39 None of us will want to pull the pin on that hand grenade.

Speaker 39 But if there is a psycho in that room that wants to all of a sudden pull the pin on that hand grenade, they become the most powerful person, even though we all have the same tools.

Speaker 39 And that's what you've seen in the Freedom Club. I call them the Freedom Club because it's like, there's nothing serious about them.

Speaker 40 They're not a caucus. They haven't earned the right to be a caucus.

Speaker 39 No, no, no. You got to be a respectable American for that.
But they are willing to pull the pin on the hand grenade.

Speaker 39 And the problem is, like, until you call their bluff and one of the 10 pulls the hand grenade, until you're willing to be like, all right, I can play this game too and see if they're very serious, they're always going to be the most powerful person.

Speaker 39 So that's the moment with the Ukraine stuff right now. You have discharge petitions, which I can get into if you're curious, but neither of those are going to pass.

Speaker 39 What can really happen to compel this is if just two, maybe it takes three, it depends how many are in D.C.

Speaker 39 that day, sane Republicans go to the Speaker of the House and say, we, like the Freedom Caucus does, we will vote against every rule with the Democrats that comes to the floor until you agree to put the aid package on the floor for an up or down vote.

Speaker 39 He would be forced to do that, by the way, because now he couldn't, nothing could happen on the floor.

Speaker 39 And it would actually give Speaker Johnson cover to get this done because he'd be like, I have to, guys. But nobody's got the courage to do it.
I don't get it.

Speaker 39 If I was still in D.C., Tim, this is the one thing I would be doing is voting against every rule. I would be staying in D.C.

Speaker 39 I would be on every microphone, which I'm good at, and just be like, I'm going to shut down the floor until they put this on the floor for a vote.

Speaker 40 Help me understand the psychology. And, you know, we don't have to rake our friend Mike Gelgarov with Kohl's any more than we already have.
But just like, I really don't understand why.

Speaker 40 I would understand it if they were trying to do political survival, right? But a handful of people have quit.

Speaker 40 Like enough people to do what you're asking for have quit, have quit that like they could have just done this rather than quit.

Speaker 40 So why?

Speaker 39 Do you want to know the reason?

Speaker 40 Yeah, please explain. Financial.

Speaker 39 I won't go into details, but in my case, I've talked to people about some like kind of post-Congress stuff. And it's like, well, wait, wait until we see if Donald Trump wins and then come and talk.

Speaker 39 Because if he wins, you're going to to piss him off and we don't want you involved.

Speaker 40 Right.

Speaker 39 And it's like, I get that in a way.

Speaker 40 These guys aren't going to return your call. Right.
You know, if I'm Raytheon and I want to hire Adam Kinzinger, it's like, well, actually, maybe I shouldn't hire him.

Speaker 40 I should maybe hire Mike Gallagher because like all the Republicans will return his call still because he wasn't the turd in the punch bowl.

Speaker 39 And that's the key. Now, the rumor is Gallagher is going to Palantir, right? He's probably going to be Palantir's guy in the hill, make a ton of money.
He can't piss anybody off.

Speaker 39 That's what this all is.

Speaker 40 That sounds like a prison.

Speaker 40 It doesn't sound that great to me, actually. That sounds like a rich prison.

Speaker 39 It is a rich prison. It is, because at this moment, I guarantee you, and again, we're picking on Mike, but there's so many people that this falls under.

Speaker 40 No, there are a million examples of this. It's just that, like, he's one we expect the most of.
Yeah, he is.

Speaker 40 It's like, we can pick on Ken Buck if we want, but like, he was a tea party guy from Greeley. You know, anyway, like, Mike Gallagher was the great hope for our people, you know, so we're disappointed.

Speaker 40 That's why we pick on him.

Speaker 39 Yeah. And so, you know, it's that.
And it's like, well, look, okay.

Speaker 39 So now in the last three weeks of Congress, I'm going to make sure I get everybody's cell phone in there on the floor, which he's doing, I guarantee.

Speaker 39 And I need to make sure I don't tick everybody off because look, I get it. He's out in three weeks.
Right. But again,

Speaker 39 that's what you have. I think I've told you, Tim, probably offline.
I'm like, I think people fear more than they fear death.

Speaker 39 They fear being kicked out of the tribe because that's like a social circle. You and I have both experienced that.
It sucks, right? Right. You know, that's like your identity.

Speaker 39 On top of that, you fear losing any economic opportunity. And I think a lot of this is what it has to do with, to be honest with you.

Speaker 5 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 11 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming Manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 18 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 24 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 27 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 29 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 32 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 36 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

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Speaker 5 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carise Van Houten.

Speaker 11 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming Manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 18 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 24 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 27 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 29 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 32 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 36 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 43 We know no one's journey is the same.

Speaker 44 That's why Delta Sky Miles lets you do it your way.

Speaker 44 From earning miles on reloads for coffee runs, shopping, and things you do every day, to connecting you to new places and experiences, a Sky Miles membership fits into your lifestyle.

Speaker 52 Letting you do more of what makes you, you.

Speaker 54 It's more than travel.

Speaker 57 It's the membership that flies, dines, streams, rides, and arrives with you.

Speaker 60 Every great journey deserves a great story.

Speaker 62 And when you have a membership that's as unique as you are, there's no telling how your story will unfold or where that journey will take you next.

Speaker 64 Sky Miles is the membership that will be here for all your big and small moments.

Speaker 66 The membership that's there for every solo adventure or family trip.

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Speaker 40 To me, it seems like the Wall Street Journal's lost their mind, but I want to be open to trying to understand their argument.

Speaker 40 The Wall Street Journal editorial board yesterday had a headline that made me think it might be opposite day. It said, Mike Johnson's Ukraine moment, colon.

Speaker 40 The House speaker is stepping up, but Biden needs to help get Democratic votes.

Speaker 40 To me, it's like, hey, the Democrats have already passed Ukraine aid and the Democrats seem to want Ukraine aid.

Speaker 40 I assume what they're talking about, there's this discharge petition that the Democrats should be going on with some different type of,

Speaker 40 what the fuck are they talking about? Help me understand what they're talking about.

Speaker 39 I think it's two things. There's two discharge petitions, which Mike Fitzpatrick, you know, has one that's like basically with remain in Mexico and all the immigration stuff.

Speaker 39 He's got 18 signatures on that. Not even the Republicans are signing onto that, which is weird.
And then there's the discharge petition, which by the way, these are rarely done.

Speaker 39 The last successful one I was involved in was in 2015. The last successful one before that was 2000.
So this is how rare these things are.

Speaker 39 The other discharge petition is like just the straight-up Senate bill.

Speaker 39 So I think what the Wall Street Journal is saying is like Mike Johnson's stepping up because he's made statements like, oh, I want to pass Ukraine with this like kind of hardcore border bill, border security bill.

Speaker 39 And so they're like, Democrats have got to come over on this. Look, I think the border's messed up.
And I actually think that they need to do quite a bit more on border security.

Speaker 39 But Republicans, in my mind, have lost any moral authority on that because they turned down the one compromise they got that was actually pretty decent, you know, done by Lankford.

Speaker 39 They've lost all authority. So I think that Wall Street Journal is trying desperately to turn this against the Democrats.
I will say, though, I don't know why.

Speaker 39 Joe Biden and his team are not out there every

Speaker 39 day hammering the Republicans on Ukraine every day. And I've got to tell you, everybody's like, how does Joe Biden win the 20% Nikki Haley voters? It's really simple.
Fight and win Ukraine.

Speaker 40 Okay, I want to get back to the political side of this, but let's just on the policy first. Is the answer to that that Biden's playing a little bit of poker here?

Speaker 40 He's got his cards close to his chest. And it's like, well, if I get out there and start doing this, that's going to make it harder on these people, the McCalls of the world.

Speaker 39 I don't even know if I agree with that but i i think that's their theory of the case yeah i i don't really actually think so i think you know look he went hard during the state of the union right and that would be the time when you would want to throttle back a little if if you're worried about that honestly the overused term now occam's razor is is occam's razor overused now i gotta i gotta find a new theory i think so and to get chastised at a dinner recently for for using occam's razor and like what was the other one overton window yeah the overton window but i like i like that one still that's still in vogue.

Speaker 39 But anyway, so Occam's razor, in my mind, is I think there are still elements of the National Security Council. It may not be Joe Biden himself, that are worried about escalation.

Speaker 39 There's this escalation fear in Russia, and they want to see Russia not win, but they're fearful of what happens if Russia loses. And I think that's the concern.

Speaker 39 And it's kind of like, we don't want to own Ukraine. If we get out there too much in front and Ukraine loses, then we own it.
Well, if Ukraine loses, you own it. Like, I hate to tell you.

Speaker 39 That's just, that's just a fact.

Speaker 40 Maybe this is what's happening, but to me, the Occam's Razor, we'll just Occam's Razor back and forth at each other. What's the most obvious answer? Yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 40 Here's to me what the most obvious answer is. The Democrats want this.
They've been willing to sacrifice things that

Speaker 40 create problems with their own base for this on immigration, as you mentioned. They've passed it.
They're not even really playing hardball.

Speaker 40 It's not like they're forcing the Republicans to be like, oh, we'll only go along if you do this. To me, the simplest answer is they they want this.
The Republicans are bumbling it.

Speaker 40 Like one of Joe Biden's strengths is not the bully pulpit. And so he's like not using it.

Speaker 40 So the Democrats are just kind of like, well, let's let the Republicans like fumble with their dicks for a while and we'll just sit here.

Speaker 40 We wish we could have the money for Ukraine, but we don't know what else to do because it's their fault. And so we're just going to sit here and wait and watch their little shit show.

Speaker 40 To me, I think that's what's happening.

Speaker 39 Yeah, and I think we kind of agree on that. Like, I do think that's what's going on.
You know, my criticism is, as you said, Joe Biden's not the best bully pulpiter.

Speaker 39 And I think he needs to be in this case. I think his, even if it's not him, his team needs to be in this case.
Because I actually think, I think this is an issue you can beat Republicans on.

Speaker 39 I think you can beat them in the election on it. Because I do think Haley's voters, for instance, we talk about Haley's voters.
It's 20% of the Republican electorate.

Speaker 39 They all, 99% of them, it's probably in their top two or three things. So I think it's important to get out there.

Speaker 40 Just on the policy of this, I'm curious your perspective, having been a congressman, having served, looking at the Biden team right now.

Speaker 40 There are people that are like one little baby step to the right of you, or maybe not even to the right, but to the MAGA of you, like one step more MAGA curious.

Speaker 40 They're like, you're not MAGA curious at all. And they don't like MAGA, but they're a little curious, right? Like, so you know the type of person I'm talking about in the Wall Street Journal world.

Speaker 39 They've delved into, they've experimented with it.

Speaker 40 Yeah, they're dipping their toe in a little bit,

Speaker 40 seeing how warm it feels.

Speaker 40 If you ask them about the Haley donor class and the Wall Wall Street Journal types and the McCalls, this world about the Biden foreign policy, like they'll say, well, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 40 He hasn't been doing enough on Ukraine. He's been being a little too mean to Bibi and it might make me vote for Trump.

Speaker 40 I assume that you're kind of sympathetic to their foreign policy critiques of Biden.

Speaker 40 So I'm curious how you grade Biden on foreign policy and then how you compare that to Trump, just purely on the policy merits.

Speaker 39 I'm sympathetic in that, like, I think Biden has a weak foreign policy, right? I think so. But I think the choice is weak versus evil.
And I'll take weak any day.

Speaker 39 You know, the thing is, is like the Houthis, I'm kind of like, huh, Israel, I get it. Okay.

Speaker 39 This is a tough.

Speaker 40 The Houthis, you're like, we should be bombing the Houthis more.

Speaker 39 That's right. Yeah.
I mean, it's like, what was it? It just came out the other day that we offered to take them yet again off the terrorist list if they quit attacking in the Red Sea.

Speaker 40 I mean, I think. Let's send a few ICBMs into Houthi territory.
That's where Kinziger's at? Yeah, see what happens.

Speaker 39 No, maybe a few more fights.

Speaker 40 We had Crystal on yesterday calling for a no-fly zone in Ukraine, and now you want to bomb the Houthis. I'm open to this is this should be the place to have these discussions.

Speaker 40 Let's move that over to Nwindow.

Speaker 39 I've been all for the Ukraine no-fly zone.

Speaker 39 But anyway, so you know, after those two Americans were killed in the Middle East, we bombed the living hell out of Iranian proxies, and it's gone quiet for two months.

Speaker 39 I think that's an important message. It's a fair point.
On foreign policy, C, B minus, not terrible.

Speaker 40 What's your Israel critique?

Speaker 39 I'd probably put it about a a C. I mean, I understand the tough position he's in.
And I mean, you look at Reagan in 1982. Reagan was no Israel.

Speaker 39 You know, yeah, he was no huge Israel star.

Speaker 40 But

Speaker 39 at the same time, I think it's important to keep in mind, you know, we destroyed, we flattened Mosul to defeat ISIS. The difference is the people of Mosul had a place to go.
What's happening in Gaza?

Speaker 39 Egypt and Jordan will not let people in. That's the difference, right? The war is still being kind of handled the same way.
Anyway, that said,

Speaker 39 this idea that Donald Trump was any good on foreign policy is garbage. He was the weakest president.
He's evil and weak.

Speaker 39 You know, everybody will say to me, well, Russia never would have invaded Ukraine if Trump was president. Okay, maybe that's true.
Maybe it's not. We have no way of knowing.

Speaker 39 But it wouldn't have been because they were scared of American response to an invasion.

Speaker 39 It's because because he wouldn't have needed to invade because Vladimir Putin was getting everything he wanted anyway.

Speaker 39 The only thing Trump did that was worth praising, and it is worth praising, is killing Solomoni. That was Mike Pompeo's decision.
But guess what? Trump gets credit for that.

Speaker 39 And the Democrats get a bat on him because they were screaming about World War III. Remember when they shot down that giant drone that was $300 million and we did nothing?

Speaker 39 Remember when they hit the Saudi oil field and we did nothing? Remember when they bombed U.S. troops and we did nothing?

Speaker 39 Remember when Donald Trump stood by Vladimir Putin and said he believes him over his own intelligence agencies?

Speaker 39 I was in the Oval Office with Donald Trump when he said that President Xi asked him for a little favor and could we do it, which was to take Chinese telecom ZTE out of the sanctions list because he asked him a personal favor, ZTE, which is spying on the United States.

Speaker 39 Donald Trump was the worst, Tim, the worst foreign policy president, not even about his personality, about his just actions.

Speaker 39 And this is what concerns me: there's this like blessed memory of Donald Trump's foreign policy and economic policy. He was a friggin' disaster.

Speaker 40 It's a great rant. And I'll add to it.
I'm reading David Sanger's books. We're going to have him on the pod, hopefully, in the next few weeks.

Speaker 40 I had forgotten because it happened right before January 6th and it got washed away kind of in just the news craziness. Do you remember the solar winds attack, the cyber attack on the government?

Speaker 39 I forgot all about that.

Speaker 40 Me too. I'm reading the book and I I was like, oh, right.
Russia committed a cyber attack on our government, a very serious one. Very.

Speaker 40 Where we lost a lot of government workers' private information, a high-level cyber attack, not one of these like random ones, that penetrated the federal government.

Speaker 40 Trump puts out a tweet that's like, ah, maybe it's the Chinese. The fake news always say Russia, Russia, Russia.
Right.

Speaker 40 It's like Trump is doing propaganda for the people that literally are attacking our government. And it just kind of got washed away because the next day the Capitol got stormed.

Speaker 39 So I don't know what's been declassified i got the classified briefing of it so i'll have to speak kind of high level solar winds was not a one-time intrusion hack this was an infection that at least at the time i was in and then of course i got sidetracked with all the january 6th stuff the government was talking about like gajillions of dollars of damage to actual government infrastructure i'm sure they've been going after it now i'm glad you brought that up i forgot all about that and that was like like made Edward Snowden look like a kitty cat type devastating stuff to the U.S.

Speaker 39 government. And Donald Trump, what does he do?

Speaker 39 I mean, look, the Havana syndrome story that just came out. What is MAGA doing? They're calling it a ray.
Oh, Russia has a ray gun. Sure.
Yeah, you're always going after Russia.

Speaker 39 Russia is cooking the brains. of American government workers with microwave directed microwave energy, which we've known for decades exists and can exist.
So it's not a magic ray gun on a sci-fi film.

Speaker 39 And MAGA is out there defending Russia and pretending like we're making the whole thing up. Screw them.

Speaker 40 Period. Neocon power hour is over for now.
Thank you.

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Speaker 40 Do a little politicking. You're in Texas now, right? I am, yeah.
You're one of many people that have moved to Texas that are of your ilk, college-educated. You went to college, right? Yeah.

Speaker 40 Where'd you, what's your alma mater?

Speaker 39 Illinois State, baby.

Speaker 40 I was an Ivy Leaguer.

Speaker 39 Got straight C's.

Speaker 40 Illinois State.

Speaker 40 That used to have a Native American name and you switched, right?

Speaker 39 No, it didn't. Illinois did.
That was the Illini, which it still does.

Speaker 40 That was Illinois. I used to have a chief.

Speaker 39 Redbirds. I mean, look.

Speaker 40 The redbirds. I knew it was a red something.
I had red in my mind, and maybe that's why I had Native American. Okay, Redbirds.
All right. Illinois State Redbird.
College educated.

Speaker 40 You've moved to Texas. I assume you're living in the suburbs or somewhere, suburb-ish.
Yeah.

Speaker 40 You know, probably voted for Mitt Romney and are kind of like, whoa, I don't know what's happening here with the Republicans.

Speaker 40 And it's people like you that are kind of turning turning Texas a little bit. I'm not sure that like Texas, we're not like into swing state territory.
I'm not, I'm not into delusional.

Speaker 40 This is why Texas, I think, will be closer than Florida this time, people like you. So you were talking about the Nikki Haley voter.
That's you.

Speaker 40 So I'm just wondering how you assess how Biden is doing with that group and what advice you'd have.

Speaker 39 The Texas thing, it's funny. We kind of moved here accidentally.
It was just kind of we came here after all the death threats and then moving across the country with a family is not easy.

Speaker 39 And we really like the woodlands, which is where we're at at now in North Houston. And my wife let me buy a big plane if I stayed here.
So I was good with that. So I have my own big plane now.

Speaker 40 Former fighter pilot. I've since signed the woodlands.
Oh, yeah, that's good. That's good.
Houston has good food there. Cool.
You know, a lot of good ethnic food.

Speaker 39 Yeah. And it's close to the Houston airport, which is nice.
And then the airport I keep the plane at. But Texas is obviously crazy.
Like the Republican politics here is bat shittery.

Speaker 39 But I think there is still this kind of undercurrent. It'll be interesting to see how Colin Allred does in the Senate race because he's about as moderate of a Democrat as the Democrats have put up.

Speaker 39 You know, I've thought about like, is there room for conservative Democrats in Texas?

Speaker 39 Because if the Democrats play their game right, they would put up a conservative Democrat, you know, just like, you know, Republicans should be putting up liberal Republicans in Illinois.

Speaker 39 I think really the longer we go. into this election season, I have been a pessimist.

Speaker 39 I would put myself right in the middle ground now of pessimism and optimism because I'm watching Donald Trump's brain cook in front of the American people.

Speaker 39 Like Biden, you know, being slow and, you know, with Alzheimer's, which I don't think he has, but regardless, that's kind of cooked into the American people perception already.

Speaker 39 So all he can do, I think, with the exception of a trip down Air Force One, is like improve that position, right? He improved it at the State of the Union.

Speaker 39 You don't hear a lot of attacks on his mental state since then.

Speaker 40 Right. People are kind of like, oh, okay.

Speaker 39 Donald Trump has a long way to go down. And I think he's determined.
You had, I forget who it was you had on your podcast.

Speaker 39 Was it David Frum that just said he has been determined to make this election all about himself? Yes. And that is going to damage him.

Speaker 39 So I think the state of the Haley voter, you know, the Kinzinger and Texas voter is, you know, we'll support obviously Joe Biden.

Speaker 39 I still think a good significant part of that Haley voter does go to Joe Biden, not happily. And I take a little issue with when, you know, we argue about

Speaker 39 should there be, like,

Speaker 39 I'm glad no labels is not on the ticket, but I think there are certain voters and not a voter like me and not a voter like you that we do need to give permission to either abstain from the presidential line or vote third party because it's not everybody.

Speaker 40 This is why when we did Republican voters against Trump in 2020, we called it Republican voters against Trump, not Republican for Biden. Yeah.

Speaker 40 Because, you know, I was like, the people that were in charge of it, me and Sarah and others and Mike Murphy, we were all for Biden, but we were like, look, some of the people that we can appeal to just won't be able to get there.

Speaker 40 That's right. And it's better to move them off than to do nothing.
And I totally agree with that.

Speaker 39 Yeah. And I think the best thing is to make the case.
Like, look, you do have two choices. Again, like I said, it's somebody I don't agree with all their policies or pure evil.

Speaker 39 I'm going to go with the policies guy. But if there's somebody that just can't, you know, whether it's abortion, whether it's whatever the issue is, they can't go to Biden.

Speaker 39 giving them permission and saying, look, your country did not present you choices that you like. It is your right to skip that line.
That's at least half a win for us.

Speaker 39 And I think that's going to be important as long as we're not giving people an excuse to not vote for Biden.

Speaker 40 I don't want to presume, but you are preferring All Red over Cruz also in that race? Oh, dude.

Speaker 39 I would rather jump in a pile of lava than vote for Ted Cruz. I would rather be nude on television, like in a very embarrassing

Speaker 39 than vote for Ted Cruz. I don't know.

Speaker 40 That might get you some slides into your DMs. I know you're still newly wed, but you know.
Maybe. I hear you, though.
Okay, so let's give Colin Allred some advice together then because you're there.

Speaker 40 I had Allred on before he even announced a long time ago, George Bush in his district. I think he might be a Colin Allred voter.
I was like, have you asked him for his vote?

Speaker 40 And he was like, no, I don't know. I don't want to put him in a bad place.
But I was like,

Speaker 40 there are people out there that are pretty conservative that he could get because Ted Cruz has gone so far off the defense. But he's got a signal.
He's got to give him a signal.

Speaker 40 He was a good, moderate congressman. He worked across the aisle, et cetera.
Like performatively speaking, I'd like to see some performative efforts to reach out.

Speaker 40 And that part I feel like has been a little bit missing from his campaign. That'd be my one critique, but I don't know.
What kind of advice would you have if Colin Allred called you about winning?

Speaker 39 It would be the same I'd probably give to the Biden team right now, which is, you know, there should be no Republican on the sideline that says they haven't been contacted by you. Right.

Speaker 39 Chris Christie, unless something changed, still hasn't been contacted by the Biden team. I got contacted by somebody at the White House saying, hey, we'd love to be in touch.

Speaker 39 I'm like, great, let me know. Heard nothing again.
Right. Like, it's fine.
And my ego doesn't need that. That's the same advice I would give to Colin.

Speaker 39 He's reached out to me, and he and I are friends anyway. So I give him credit on that.
But yeah, reach out to the Bushes.

Speaker 39 You know, Bush will stay on the sideline regardless, probably, but he can signal things quietly. And the other thing I'd give on a messaging is: sorry, you got to be somewhat tough on immigration.

Speaker 39 This is a 90% issue, by the way. Be somewhat tough on immigration.

Speaker 40 Be Swazi, just do what Swazi did at least.

Speaker 39 Yeah, do what Swazi did. And then be a, you know, be a little, a little giving on guns.

Speaker 39 You don't have to be a huge like gun nut, but just kind of like understanding the importance of concealed carry, stuff like that for Texas. And I think he has a shot to win, at least a shot.

Speaker 39 It particularly depends what happens on the national side, but certainly a shot to really embarrass Ted Cruz because Ted Cruz deserves every ounce of embarrassment he gets.

Speaker 40 Yeah, that's right. Tom Swazzy for people who ran that special election in New York and really kind of focused on crime and immigration and led with that.

Speaker 40 It was a strategy to talk about crime and immigration. It wasn't going far right, really, but it was just like, look, we need to deal with these threats in New York.

Speaker 40 Maybe crime isn't so much at that in Texas, maybe a little bit, but immigration really is, right?

Speaker 40 And like lead with your chin a little bit and you kind of maybe distance from some people on the left on that.

Speaker 39 And can I say too, like to the people that like, and I hear them that say, oh, well, you're just basically asking us to become Republicans. No.

Speaker 40 I'm not. Uh-uh.

Speaker 39 All we're asking is that you listen to what the American people are saying and actually reflect that and get elected. That's what democracy is.

Speaker 39 Like parties were never meant to be in this static position that could never move. And as the American people moved, they just moved in and out of parties.
Parties are supposed to chase voters, right?

Speaker 39 That's like the general nature of a party system.

Speaker 40 Exactly. I wrote the article about Adam Kinziger a long time ago, about the Red Dog Democrats.
I don't know if he's accepted it, but people can go find it. We'll put it in the show notes.

Speaker 40 But in this article, I was like, there are a ton of progressive policies that Red Dog Democrats and the Dallas suburbs don't care about.

Speaker 40 Marijuana legalization, raising the minimum wage, infrastructure spending, universal pre-K, environmental conservation.

Speaker 40 I'm going down and down. Criminal justice.

Speaker 40 They're a bunch, I dream act, right? There are a bunch of stuff, a bunch of progressive priorities you can do. It's just, you know, on a few things, you gotta

Speaker 40 try to put an olive branch right. Okay, we're running out of time.
I want to do a quick RFK, and then we do need to talk about Donald Trump's smell.

Speaker 40 I want to listen to the New York, I think she was running the New York ballot access operation for RFK really quick.

Speaker 69 Things, I guess, will change over time because because you do have to only pick one candidate at the end of the day. But the Kennedy voter and the Trump voter, the enemy, our mutual enemy is Biden.

Speaker 69 Since Biden is counting on us with Bobby in the mix,

Speaker 69 my thought is for the Republicans. See, Bobby right now, he's pulling from both sides.

Speaker 69 Right now, he's actually pulling a little bit more from Biden, which explains why the DNC is kind of ganging up on him. They have a special committee to go after independent candidates.

Speaker 69 Yeah, they say independent candidates, like non-affiliated candidates, they really mean Bobby, because Bobby's the only third party that anybody's taking seriously.

Speaker 69 So they developed a committee just to go after him and to get him off of the ballot in any way they can.

Speaker 69 Especially, it seems as though they're going after the battleground states more than the deep blue states. Bobby's moving the blues on his own.

Speaker 69 If the Republicans accept

Speaker 40 that new league.

Speaker 40 I can't listen to this lady anymore, but

Speaker 40 she goes on to say that part of the strategy, which I think is insane, is that Bobby wins some some blue states and that sends the election to the House.

Speaker 40 This is probably not going to happen, but really they are saying the quiet part out loud about where they think things are on this.

Speaker 40 You know, some of these voters, particularly some of the types of people we're talking about, who are more conservative instinctually, more low-info voters that aren't paying as close of attention, that aren't listening to the Bullard podcast, like some of them, RFK might seem like an appealing off-ramp.

Speaker 40 Like, oh, he's not. So, what's your take on the RFK side of things and the nature of the threat there?

Speaker 39 First off, to that lady, I don't know, I forgot her name, but like, thank you for telling the truth publicly because, you know, we need that, right?

Speaker 40 Tell the truth.

Speaker 39 You know, it's just what they found is that there is an audience of conspiracy nuts in MAGA that will fund their campaign. As I've said, the campaign's been hijacked by MAGA.

Speaker 39 And I think probably voluntarily because it's audience capture. You know, this risk in media, it's like, and in politics, it's okay.
Well, here's our donor base. So now we need to feed the donor base.

Speaker 39 And then our donor base becomes more like what we've been feeding. And it's this kind of vicious circle.
He's been feeding conspiracies, which now is naturally found on the right.

Speaker 39 It used to be found on the left. You know, the horseshoe theory has now officially happened.
They've met. And so I look at it and I say, he's nuts.

Speaker 40 I think.

Speaker 39 The bigger risk is certainly to Joe Biden with Kennedy because Kennedy, of course, the name is a scion in Democratic politics.

Speaker 39 But I think Democrats are doing the right thing by continuing to talk about him and ridicule him because I think their biggest threat is that low-information voter, as you mentioned, that doesn't like Joe Biden, that thinks Kennedy is Kennedy, and instead needs to see that he's basically Donald Trump.

Speaker 39 Now, he's not going to pull much from Trump because people that love Trump.

Speaker 40 He's like Donald Trump that believes in climate change. Yeah.

Speaker 39 And so if you want Donald Trump, vote for Trump. If you don't want him, then Kennedy should be off the table.
And I think as the election gets closer, that'll become more obvious.

Speaker 39 I don't think he's going to have the poll of

Speaker 39 a Ross Perot. But at the same time, what, one or two percent can make a difference this year, unfortunately.

Speaker 40 Yeah, big time. All right.
So you've been the one person brave enough not just to speak out about January 6th and to get those death threats, but to also speak out about Donald Trump's smell.

Speaker 40 One thing I've noticed, and we're trying to get at the bottom of what the smell is, I've noticed his tint, his face tint has changed. Like it was, it was a pure orange mango for a while.

Speaker 40 It moved to like a burnt sienna. And lately, it's kind of like, it's like a pine tar.
Yeah. I mean, it's getting, it's getting very dark.
It's like, you can't imagine that as helping the smell.

Speaker 40 So give us, tell us a little bit about, about what you think that is happening there.

Speaker 39 Well, it's like, it's old man in shame. I mean, it's like, you know,

Speaker 39 it's not, I don't know if it's diaper, if it's like just on the side.

Speaker 40 You don't think it's the face, whatever he's called. It could be the face.

Speaker 39 It could be the sweat.

Speaker 40 The sweat mixed with that. The sweat.

Speaker 39 Here's the important thing about this, Tim, is MAGA sees Donald Trump. Now, we've got to put ourselves in this mind for a second, as almost a non-human entity.
And I'm serious about this.

Speaker 39 Like, everything about him is almost non-human. Like, honestly, if they saw him sitting on the toilet, it would shatter their image of him.
I don't mean to say that to be funny.

Speaker 40 Did you see the eclipse they had they did of him where like Donald Trump is blocking the sun? It is so weird. We'll put that in the show notes too.

Speaker 40 I wanted to just play the audio, but you can't really get it without looking at it. It's so fucking weird.
Damn.

Speaker 39 It's like, it's nuts, but like that's where they're at. So I think there is benefit in humiliating him both as just a human with failings, which we all are.

Speaker 39 And I don't say that to be, but like he's trying to put himself above that, but also the whiniest,

Speaker 39 weakest. I mean, my God, the guy was president of the United States, and somehow the innept Democratic Party was able to pull over on him the greatest steal of an election in American history.

Speaker 39 He's that weak that he allowed it to happen and he just whines and he complains and he belly aches.

Speaker 39 And Tim, when you and I were junior Republican babies, what we loved about the Republican Party was its toughness, its like self-reliance.

Speaker 40 Up from your bootstraps. Yeah.

Speaker 39 He has turned the Republican Party into a bunch of whiny, licking their wounds like people. And we have to call that out because nobody wants to be that.

Speaker 39 And Donald Trump needs to be painted as that, I think. And that's what Country First is going to spend some time doing.

Speaker 40 Whiny and smelly

Speaker 40 and like obese and not athletic. And look at him on the golf cart.
It just, it's a disgusting, he's a disgusting figure.

Speaker 39 And he's scared. He's a scared person right now.
You could just tell he's frightened, like a little kitty cat. He's scared.

Speaker 40 Michael, do you ever see that vimage of him with the eagle? When the eagle goes to bite him? He's like,

Speaker 40 I love that one. I love that one.
I do too. Okay, Adam Kinzinger.
I, man, I just appreciate you so much. You're a great American.
You'll be back on the podcast soon.

Speaker 40 Country First, go ahead and check out his organization, Country First. We'll be back here tomorrow with another one of my favorite people.
So we'll see y'all then. Peace.

Speaker 40 And I'll be damned if I can't slow dance with you. Come close on sugar on me, honey, too.
It's a real live bookie and a real live hold down. Don't be a bitch, come take it to the floor now.
Woo!

Speaker 40 There's a tornado

Speaker 40 in my city.

Speaker 40 That shit ain't pretty.

Speaker 40 Rook it whizzy.

Speaker 40 We're surviving.

Speaker 40 I'm break up, kisses, sweet redemption, passing time, yeah.

Speaker 40 One step to the right.

Speaker 40 We headed to the dive bar. We always thought was nice.

Speaker 40 Ooh,

Speaker 40 run me to to the left, then spin me in the middle, boy. I can't read your mind.
This ain't Texas.

Speaker 40 Ain't no holding.

Speaker 40 Lay your cards down, down, down, down.

Speaker 40 So pop your lattice.

Speaker 40 Pull your keys up.

Speaker 40 Slick on round, round, round, round, round.

Speaker 40 And I'll be damned if I can't so dance with you. Come pour some sugar on me, honey, too.
It's a real live bookie and a real live hold down. Don't be a bitch, come take it to the floor now.

Speaker 40 I'll be damned if I cannot dance with you. Come pour some liquor on me, honey, too.
It's a real live boogie and a real live hold down. Don't be a, come take it to the flow now.

Speaker 40 The Bullard podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 40 I've been out here a while, cast up to cast, and nothing's biting.

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