Don Lemon: Elon Is a Troll

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Speaker 15 Hello, and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I am your host, Tim Miller, coming at you live from the Sears Roblox Studio here in Los Angeles, Photo Studio, where I got my childhood pictures taken.

Speaker 15 I'm with Don Lemon. He's in his living room.
It's a little warm there, it sounds like. How are you doing, Don?

Speaker 16 I'm great. It's a little warm.
I have to open the window. Maybe I should turn the fireplace off.
Can we tell everyone this has been like a comedy of errors?

Speaker 16 Like, I can't get into the thing, the microphone, the computer, the headphones, the dogs.

Speaker 15 The post-cable life is a little different. I'm just, I'm wondering, there's some downsides, right?

Speaker 15 You don't have a team there kind of, you know, doing your mic for you, but also maybe your synapses are firing in your brain.

Speaker 15 Like, you know, is maybe, do you feel like you're seeing the world in technicolor now? There are pros and cons, right? To be an off-the-cable grind. I love it.

Speaker 16 Well, yeah, I guess mostly pros. I get to do what I want to do.
I get to choose the content I choose. I get to talk about what I talk about.

Speaker 16 I get to lean into what candidate I feel I'm feeling excited about.

Speaker 16 I get to be more transparent. So it's mostly pros.

Speaker 15 I was thinking, and you're doing, what, three hours every day in the morning when you move to the morning?

Speaker 16 When I moved to the morning, yeah, but that was a short, yeah, that was a short period of time. That was three, six to nine.
Not even still.

Speaker 16 I didn't, yeah, but I did two hours a night at least for eight years on CNN.

Speaker 15 I mean, that's a lot. Yeah.
That's a lot. Eventually your brain had to to be like, no, uh-uh, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not working it 100%.

Speaker 16 This is your brain on cable, is that kind of thing?

Speaker 15 Yeah, it was a lot. Okay, I've got a theme for this show.
I want to talk about Elon, and it's within the theme.

Speaker 15 And the theme is, how are we supposed to, how are people in the media that care about truth, like you, supposed to deal with MAGA politicians and MAGA platforms? You have the Don Lemon show.

Speaker 15 It was on X for a minute. It's still on X, but you're also on YouTube.
You're on iHeart. How do we reach MAGA voters? How do you deal with MAGA politicians? I think a lot of times progressive

Speaker 15 commenters think that this is a lot easier question than it is. Like, don't platform them.
But it's actually kind of a complicated question.

Speaker 15 And I want to start with Rana, but I'm curious what your biggest picture's thoughts are on that before we get to Rana.

Speaker 16 Oh, you mean what happens with the MAGA folks? What do you do?

Speaker 15 How do you do?

Speaker 15 What are we supposed to do with them?

Speaker 16 Well, I always had this policy that, you know, I didn't like to give a platform to people who were liars or insurrectionists or you know who are just apologists and that didn't really offer any insight or didn't educate the viewer at all that was my policy especially when i was at night and for most of my years at cnn i do think that you have to hear from

Speaker 16 i hate to say all sides right i don't believe in like fake balance again i don't believe in putting people on all sides matter yeah all sides matter i don't believe in putting people on who are liars basically and who are election deniers but you do have to hear from you know republicans and Democrats.

Speaker 16 I'm an independent. I'm not registered to vote under any political party.
I think it's a sort of a case-by-case basis. But when it comes to MAGA, we're in a whole different territory now, Tim.

Speaker 16 And I think we have to be careful about who we put on the air because people come on the air just in order to lie. And that is a new phenomenon within the Trump era.

Speaker 15 Yeah, I want to dig into that a little more. Let's start with Rana.
So NBC hires Rana. Everybody knows about this, Rana Romney.

Speaker 15 Romney was her name right before she changed it to Make Donald Trump Happy. And there was kind of an unprecedented backlash among the on-air talent.

Speaker 15 I hate the word talent, but among the on-air journalists for NBC. I want to play one clip that really struck me from Rachel Maddow last night.
Let's listen to that.

Speaker 15 If you care what I think about this, I will tell you the fact that Ms.

Speaker 17 McDaniel is on the payroll at NBC News.

Speaker 17 To me, that is inexplicable. I mean,

Speaker 17 you wouldn't hire

Speaker 17 a wise guy. You wouldn't hire a made man, like a mobster,

Speaker 17 to work at a DA's office, right?

Speaker 17 You wouldn't hire a pickpocket to work as a TSA screener.

Speaker 17 And so I find the decision to put her on the payroll inexplicable. And I hope they will reverse their decision.
And it's not about, you know, Democratic Party, Republican Party.

Speaker 17 It's not about partisanship. It's not about right versus left.
It's not about being a political professional versus some other kinds of person. It's not about being mean or nice to journalists.

Speaker 17 It's not about just being associated with Donald Trump and his time in the Republican Party. It's not even about lying or not lying.
It's about our system of government

Speaker 17 and undermining elections and going after democracy as an ongoing project.

Speaker 15 What did you think about that?

Speaker 16 I watched it live and I think it was an amazing commentary. Quite frankly, I kept thinking if I was in cable news, this is something that I would do.

Speaker 16 There are very few people who have the balls to do what she did and to stand up to management. Most people just want to, you know, hey, I don't want to say anything.
I don't want to rock the boat.

Speaker 16 I have this big paycheck. You know, I'm afraid of not getting access to certain people.
I'm afraid that people are going to think that I'm partisan.

Speaker 16 There's a lot of that going on all over, not just in cable, but in broadcast as well. And I'm sure probably in print or what have you.

Speaker 15 Bravo.

Speaker 16 to Rachel Maddow because she spoke the truth and she did it in a way that made people understand the dangers of, and I hate that word platforming, but the dangers of elevating and giving, amplifying is a better word, amplifying the voice of someone who is really a pathological liar, someone who has encouraged and supported someone who inspired an insurrection, someone who went along with a fake elector scheme, someone who was part of trying to overthrow the will of the people.

Speaker 16 of a free and fair election. So what I thought of that, I thought it was right on.
And I kept thinking, quite honestly, Tim, what head will be first to roll at NBC for making that hire?

Speaker 16 They can hire who they want. It's their ball fill.

Speaker 15 Seems like Rana might be the first head to roll.

Speaker 16 Well, I mean, I meant in management because someone had to make the decision. I mean, look, if someone offered you a ton of money to become a contributor, would you say no?

Speaker 15 No.

Speaker 16 I'm just saying it's not Ronna McDaniels' fault. Ronna McDaniels is who she is, as I just pointed out.
But I mean, what was her role there?

Speaker 15 She was just a living, breathing example of an insult to all the journalists at nbc and msnbc yeah it's pretty it's pretty boss moved by rachel she's like i'm just gonna work one night and then i'm gonna spend half of my one night this week making fun of my bosses uh i do have to give us credit for that um uh making fun is me wrong attacking my bosses

Speaker 16 she attacked them yeah attacking their judgment criticizing their judgment well she held up a mirror yeah i don't think she attacked them i think that look i think that she was very kind to rashida jones and she said you know she believes that rashida made the the right decision eventually.

Speaker 16 I'm not sure about at first, like the first part, she said, you know, after there was outrage among the ranks, Rashida made the right decision, which was great. I commend Rashida for that.

Speaker 16 And then she said, it takes a big person

Speaker 16 to realize that they make, made a mistake in reverse course. And so I think she was saying, Rashida did it.
You guys should do it. And you guys can do it.
So I don't think she was insulting them.

Speaker 16 She was trying to appeal to their better angels. Yeah.

Speaker 15 It's worth mentioning wasn't just Rachel. It was my fellow former Republicans, Scarborough and Nicole Wallace, also had similar commentaries.
Rachel's was just the most pointed.

Speaker 16 Here's the thing, though. Inchuck Todd.
Inchuck Todd, yeah.

Speaker 15 Ron is kind of an easy call because she was among the most shameless liars when it comes to the

Speaker 15 election denialism and apologists for Donald Trump. But here's the problem, Don.

Speaker 15 Okay, so if you're a news network, we can take it out from cable, just anything.

Speaker 15 If you're a news organization of any kind, any platform, and one party has become, you know, completely enthralled to a pathological liar who tried to overturn the government.

Speaker 15 And everybody supports him at some level in that party, but that's one of the two major parties in our system. What do you do? Like, where is the line? You know, do you have Mike Lee on your network?

Speaker 15 Mike Johnson is the Speaker of the House now. He was part of the effort to overturn the election.
How do you deal with these people?

Speaker 16 As I said, it's a case-by-case basis because Mike Johnson is a speaker of the house and you want to hear from him and you want to hear from people who have roles in the government.

Speaker 16 You have to do that, but you have to fact-check them in real time or you tape them and then offer your view or you tell them or whomever are your listener, this is the truth.

Speaker 16 They were lying about this. But Ronna McDaniel is not even popular among the MAGA folks, even though she helped him out.
I mean, she's not even popular among Republicans.

Speaker 16 Like she's kind of on the outs of the party. She just, she got out it.
Like Donald Trump said, no more. I'm going to put someone else in.
So that's why I don't really understand that decision.

Speaker 16 It's not a tough decision when it comes to Ronna McDaniel. But when it comes to other people, you know, you don't have to put the Matt Gates of the world on.
I'm sorry. You can talk about people.

Speaker 16 You can talk about folks. You can talk about their policies.

Speaker 16 You can explain what they're doing, but you do not have to put them on if they're only going to come on and hijack the broadcast or whatever it is that you're doing and lie to people.

Speaker 16 It's very simple. You're offering a service.
And if people aren't getting anything from that service, then why do it? You know, I came to buy a cake and you're trying to sell me a pizza.

Speaker 16 That's not, you know, that's not what you do.

Speaker 16 But also, what I would tell people all the time when they came on and they tried to lie and they wouldn't, you know, pay attention or, you know, they tried to hijack the show is that it is not a right for you to appear on any network, on this network that I'm on.

Speaker 16 It is a privilege for you to get to speak directly to the American people and so many of the American people.

Speaker 16 And so if you're going to come on and if you want to have that privilege, then you have to respect the people and not lie to them. And you have to respect the network and you have to respect me.

Speaker 16 Otherwise, I don't have to have you on. Do you worry, though?

Speaker 15 I hear, I totally agree with everything you said. I just wonder how you think about the echo chamber problem of it all.
I mean, sometimes I feel like not as much anymore.

Speaker 15 Like back in 2016, it made sense. Like, I just worked for Jeb, you know, networks would have me on.

Speaker 15 It'd be like, hey, you'll have an Obama person and a former Jeb person, and we'll argue, and sometimes we'll agree on things, sometimes we'll disagree. That made sense, right?

Speaker 15 But I feel like then that continued into the Trump era where people would be like, hey, we'll have Jen Saki and Tim Miller on. And it's like, me and Jen agree on almost that.

Speaker 15 I mean, like, we don't agree on tax cuts, right? But like, we, like, on the core question about the guy that was the president at that time and now is running for president, again, we agree.

Speaker 15 And so, don't you need to represent the view of MAGA world?

Speaker 15 Like, if you're, if you're in political news, like, don't you need to represent their view at some degree and not just have never Trumpers be the token, you know, whatever?

Speaker 16 Of course. I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying.
You can have people who represent the MAGA party, but they have to be.

Speaker 15 Is there anybody that represents them that doesn't lie?

Speaker 15 Now we're in the Mobius Strip.

Speaker 15 Now this is the question.

Speaker 15 Who is that? Who is that? Who represents the MAGA party that is not a liar?

Speaker 15 That's the question.

Speaker 16 Well, that's really tough.

Speaker 15 I mean, you know, can you have Kellyanne Conway on? Can you have Sarah Sanders? Can you have Kayleigh McEnamy?

Speaker 16 It's just very interesting because, you know, Kellyanne Conway, I remember being on when she actually made the switch from Ted Cruz to Donald Trump. And I was like, wow, I don't get that.

Speaker 16 I mean, it was like over like a light light switch.

Speaker 15 It happened to one green room, I think. I was there.
I was like, she just got a phone. She got a phone call and changed her mind.
We argued in the green room.

Speaker 16 Yeah, I remember reading the blue cards, and it said, you know, Kellyanne Conway, Trump advisor. And I said to my producers, I said, hey, guys, are you listening to the control room?

Speaker 16 We need to fix Kellyanne's blue card because it says Trump, but she's a, you know, she's a super PAC or whatever thing for Ted Cruz. And then she looked over at me.
She goes, no, that's right.

Speaker 16 And I went, now you're for Trump? She goes, yes. And I went, God, I don't really understand this whole politics thing.
Like it went overnight. Kaylee McIninney was someone that we put on.

Speaker 16 They needed someone on a show called Get to the Point, which eventually became my staff. They were doing a test show on the network and it was called Get to the Point.

Speaker 16 And they needed like someone who was anti-Trump, a Republican, who was cute and blonde or whatever. And so they put her on.

Speaker 16 She came on, I think, as an anti-Trump. And then she realized like being pro-Trump got her more, you know, recognition.
And so then she became pro-Trump.

Speaker 16 But it's interesting how people sort of, with no resumes, made their resumes and then moved to the front of the line in the Trump era.

Speaker 15 We've navigated this first hard question, which is, we don't know what to do. We both agree that we should have the MAGA folks represented, but we don't know.

Speaker 16 Maybe we should get a MAGA AI to represent them.

Speaker 15 I don't know.

Speaker 16 It's one of those things, you know it when you see it, right? You know when someone's like, well, they say you, I don't know.

Speaker 16 I can't really give you the definition of pornography, but I know it when I see it. I can't really give you the definition of who you should should have on, but you know it when you see it.

Speaker 16 You know it when at least people are trying to be practical and they're trying to tell the truth. No one is going to, it's politics, right?

Speaker 16 They're going to lie to you, or I shouldn't say they're going to lie to you, but they're going to, you know, embellish. They're going to have their talking points.
That's all normal stuff.

Speaker 16 But if people like come on and they flat out lie, I think you need to change your, you know, thinking about putting them on.

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Speaker 15 there's a supply side of this and the demand okay now it's like okay so the first question is how to deal with the politicians now it's like okay how do you reach the voters that are driving all this how do you reach the maga people i saw an interesting stat yesterday you know how people are always like oh, Trump has some problems within the Republican Party.

Speaker 15 It's being shown in the Haley vote in the primary.

Speaker 15 There was a poll yesterday, or a couple of days ago, and it asked, you know, Republican voters whether they're happy with Trump being the leader of the party.

Speaker 15 And it also asked what kind of media they consume. And among people that only consume MAGA media, 100% were happy with Trump.
Among the people that also consume other media, it was like 70%, right?

Speaker 15 So, you know, you can see just how much of it is a media. Yeah, I mean, some of this is chicken and egg, but how much of the media drives this?

Speaker 15 So, I mean, it seems to me like your effort to do an X and to get with Elon, I've listened to some of your other interviews was like some attempt to break that bubble. Is that right?

Speaker 15 What are your thoughts on that? Before we get into the details of the Elon interview, like the biggest picture, how do you break into that bubble? Do you have thoughts on that?

Speaker 16 You have to be willing to go into the lion's den.

Speaker 16 And not many people are willing to do that. I am, you know, I see Pete Buttigieg doing it all the time.
I even see Chris Christie doing it, you know, going on.

Speaker 16 Of course, he's running for office, so he's going on on to speak to Democrats, what have you. And I think he's like becoming part of no labels now.
So we'll see where that goes.

Speaker 16 Unless you go into the lion's den and be willing to get slaughtered, as I was, then you're not going to reach those people.

Speaker 16 We'll go in depth about Elon, you know, a little bit later, I'm sure. But even Elon admitted that he hadn't really watched me on CNN.

Speaker 16 Basically, his idea of who I was was watching me on, you know, probably Fox or on conservative networks, and it's just sound bites of me where I'm a character, or it's a caricature of Don Lemon.

Speaker 16 But the interesting thing is, is that when you go in to try to reach those folks, they don't want to hear what you have to say.

Speaker 16 And if you hold up a mirror to them and you hold up facts to them, they're like, whoa, wait, wait, wait,

Speaker 16 what are you doing? Yeah, it's a fake news. And so it's like, well,

Speaker 16 maybe we're in an era now where it's just, maybe it's just not possible. I don't know.
But I mean, what you're saying, think about what you're saying.

Speaker 16 100% of the people who hear Donald Trump or listen just to conservative media, they love him. And then what did you say? It was like 70%.

Speaker 15 So yeah, and if we could take off 30% of those other people, that's a win. We're in a much better situation, right? Like, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 16 What I'm just saying, though, is that their minds are made up. It's a fait accompli.

Speaker 16 On the other end,

Speaker 16 you know, I have never seen so many people who are so overrepresented in polling. And everyone's like, oh, we need to hear from the MAGA people.
What do they think? We hear from them all the time.

Speaker 16 Like every single hole that we get there, this is what MAGA thinks. Every single focus group that we do, this is every single

Speaker 16 group thing that we go to get opinions. It's always the MAGA people.
They're overrepresented. So how much more do we need to know about them? It tells you exactly how they feel.

Speaker 16 Whatever Donald Trump wants,

Speaker 16 that's what they do. Do you ever watch? You ever watch those little skits at the top of the Jimmy Kimmel show where they'll ask?

Speaker 15 People. I've seen the Jordan Clever versions of these.
I don't watch Jimmy Kimmel. Jordan Clepper does.

Speaker 16 Okay, there are different versions of these. But the ones I find the most effective is that they ask the people the same questions about Joe Biden.
Like, they'll use...

Speaker 16 what Donald Trump has done, right? They'll say, can you believe, you know, Joe Biden paid off a porn star and hid it from his wife while she was pregnant?

Speaker 15 They'll go, oh, my God, it's so horrible.

Speaker 16 And then they'll, you know, ask a couple of those questions and they go back and go, I'm sorry, I got my research wrong. I meant Donald Trump on all those questions.

Speaker 16 And then they'll ask Donald the question using Donald Trump and they will make an excuse for him. And so I just don't think it's a winnable situation right now.

Speaker 16 I think those people have made up their minds. It's very cult-like.

Speaker 15 It is. One more on this.
I'm also willing to go into the lion's den. And by the way, I know that there's some secret magnas that listen to this.
And so you can invite me. I'll go.

Speaker 15 I'll go and do, I'll go fight with

Speaker 15 these people. I'm happy to fight with a Daily Wire person or with

Speaker 15 poor Candace is going to need guests for her new show now that she's been canceled from the Daily Wire, right? So I'm happy to go talk with Candace.

Speaker 16 Free speech for me, but not for thee, Candace.

Speaker 15 John, in fairness, she did 57 anti-Semitic statements before Ben finally fired her. You know, he has a very strict rule.

Speaker 15 You know, you can only do blood libel against Jews like 82 times before he says no more.

Speaker 16 I will go in, but I find I don't mind going into the MAGA, to whatever. I just don't like, you know, it gets personal sometimes.
They start taking personal things like, oh, you know, you...

Speaker 15 You're gay.

Speaker 16 And you're like, what does that have to do with anything? You know what I mean?

Speaker 15 So I've been dying to, I'm curious your take on this, though. So then, is there a line to that too, going to Lions Den? So your old colleague Chris Cuomo went on Tucker.
I watched it.

Speaker 15 I have to say, I don't recommend anybody go to Tucker's platform that's not comfortable because he literally promotes white nationalist thought and surrogates. But it was a fascinating show.

Speaker 15 But I just, I was sitting there going, I don't know. It was different than you and the Elon thing because in the you and Elon thing, you're conducting the interview.

Speaker 15 And Chris went and did the interview with Tucker. I don't know.
What did you think about that?

Speaker 16 I didn't watch it. I have just a little bit texted with Tucker.
Look, I don't have anything against Tucker. I don't really know him that well.

Speaker 15 Well, the white nationalism, I assume, you don't like. Yes, yes.

Speaker 16 I was getting to that.

Speaker 16 The things that come out of his mouth I don't agree with. I find most of them reprehensible.

Speaker 16 I think the only communication that I've had with him is, you know, we got let go of the network on the same day. How odd that is, sort of ha ha ha, what an interesting, you know, how the world works.

Speaker 16 And he wanted me to come on the show. And I said, you know, let me figure out what I'm going to do.
I don't mind going into the lion's den. and what else.

Speaker 16 He said, welcome to X when I agreed to be a distribution partner with him. And that was about it, just a couple of times.
So, you know, I don't have anything against him.

Speaker 16 I don't agree with anything he says, pretty much.

Speaker 15 But you thought about it? You thought about going on the show? Are you still thinking about it?

Speaker 16 I did. I thought about going on the show.
I actually thought about doing things with him like, you know, sort of Buckley and Baldwin.

Speaker 16 And I was like, you know, that would be great for Tucker and I to do that if he could really do it from a place where we're trying to educate people instead of beating up on each other, where he's actually trying to learn about me and I'm trying to learn about him, which was my attitude going into the Elon thing.

Speaker 16 But I didn't watch the Tucker thing with Chris.

Speaker 16 I feel that when you have these sort of, let's say, meetings of the mind, or you have these sort of Titan clashes, whatever you want to call them, that's very generous to Tucker.

Speaker 16 There are things you have to get off your chest first.

Speaker 16 Because then you're not being honest with your audience, and you're not being honest with yourself, and you're not being honest with his audience and him.

Speaker 16 You said this, I found this offensive, or even if you just, you know, say, why would you say something like this? Why do you believe this?

Speaker 16 And I would expect the same thing from Tucker or whomever, even if Elon was interviewing me, I would expect that I would have to answer questions about what I've said, what I've done, what I've put out there.

Speaker 16 And if I can't defend myself in the moment for something that came out of my own mouth, then who am I? What am I? You know what I'm saying? It can't just be nicey nice. That's not real.

Speaker 15 That was my issue.

Speaker 16 Was it nicey nice?

Speaker 15 No, it was a little joshy. And I texted Chris about this.
I'm not doing anything that's illegal. I was like, yeah, I wish you would have gone at him a little more.

Speaker 15 And I think his perspective was like, well, I wanted to kind of draw it out and have a real conversation. And maybe that's just not my makeup.
I don't know.

Speaker 15 I'm happy to go into the lion's den, but I'm going to roar. Same.
Okay. Like, I'm not going into the lion's den and doing this.
Like, oh, well, we both have kids, and that's nice.

Speaker 15 And it's like, yeah, I guess we both have kids, but you're the one that is, you know, doing Apologia and promoting January 6th terrorists who attack the Capitol and white replacement theory.

Speaker 15 And so we're we're not friends, actually.

Speaker 16 Yeah, the great replacement theory. And you don't understand how the great replacement theory is really sort of a, it was a Jewish trope.

Speaker 16 And then you're using it now as for Democrats to say that the same thing are happening with what you call a Latino invasion or Hispanic invasion. Like it's like,

Speaker 16 but they can't answer for that. And

Speaker 16 even with Elon about Duke University and DEI, again, we'll get into that. But I would go on to Tucker.
I think. I would consider going on to Tucker.
And I would go into the lions then.

Speaker 16 I think we should all welcome that.

Speaker 15 I think Tucker might be too bad faith for it. I think he might be as demonstrated over time that he's not actually trying to have a genuine conversation.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 16 That would have to be the agreement for with me and with him. And if it turns out to not be that, then I think we would end it.

Speaker 16 But Kara Swisher, as you know, has the same feeling as you do about that. Kara and I have this conversation all the time.
We had it this summer when I was trying to figure it out.

Speaker 16 I said people trying to get me to work with Tucker. They wanted us to do events, a whole host of things.
And she said she doesn't believe.

Speaker 16 She believes it's bad faith and he's too toxic and that it would rub off on me. That's what she said.
He would get more purchase out of it than I would. That's what she says.

Speaker 15 I don't know if I agree with that about the Elon Conval. I might be on your side of it because of the nature of the conversation.

Speaker 15 But since you mentioned it, let's listen to your exchange with him about the Great Replacement Theory.

Speaker 16 The Great Replacement Theory is a neo-Nazi trope. It's in the neo-Nazi manifesto.
It's in the Turner Diaries.

Speaker 16 It's referenced by the Buffalo mass shooter and his manifesto where 10 people, black people were murdered in Buffalo. It's the actual title of the Christ Church Shooters Shooters Manifesto.

Speaker 16 51 people in the Muslim mosque were murdered. 23 people murdered in El Paso by a shooter who used the same language that you use in that manifesto when you say Hispanic invasion.
Is that not...

Speaker 18 I didn't say an Hispanic invasion.

Speaker 16 You quoted a tweet that said, that called it a Hispanic invasion.

Speaker 18 If I quote something, it doesn't mean I agree with anything every image.

Speaker 18 It's just something that I want, I think this is something worth people should consider.

Speaker 15 Oh. I just think we should consider that we're being invaded.
I don't actually agree.

Speaker 16 I'm just asking questions.

Speaker 15 Yeah, this was my, I thought it was a great interview. I think people should watch it.
You know, obviously, people, you catch the clips on Twitter. I saw on X, whatever.

Speaker 15 I went back and re-watched the whole thing last night. And as a full hour, I kind of recommend it because you can see him getting more and more agitated over time.

Speaker 15 And like, it was at that moment was the moment where I was the most wanting to yell through the computer. You know, when you're watching an interview, you're yelling through the computer.

Speaker 15 It's like, no, you're not just wanting people to consider it. You're promoting this.
Like, Like, you have the biggest platform in the world.

Speaker 15 And it would be insane to think that, like, the Sulzberger publisher would put something that he isn't sure is true that he just wants people to consider on the front page of the New York Times and just be like, consider we're being invaded.

Speaker 15 Arthur Sulzberger's idea at 3 a.m. when he's on ketamine.
Like, you have an obligation. And he just doesn't seem to take that obligation seriously at all.
And was that your takeaway, basically?

Speaker 16 He doesn't believe he has an obligation. He doesn't.
He thinks thinks that it's this weird sort of hybrid wild, wild west, but

Speaker 15 maybe we have some content moderation rules.

Speaker 16 I don't know.

Speaker 16 It was shocking to me that he, in my estimation, didn't think that he had any responsibility for the truth, any responsibility for facts, any responsibility for hate speech, any responsibility at all to sort of moderate the platform.

Speaker 16 And as you said, you talk about Sulzberger. And back to the Tucker conversation, Tucker's a big figure, but Elon Musk is a bigger figure.
He's really too big to ignore. He's too important to ignore.

Speaker 16 He's kind of Henry Ford meets Rupert Murdoch, meets Howard Hughes, meets John Rockefeller, and he's done some extremely impressive and innovative things, but he is also very, very, very dangerous.

Speaker 16 And I think unfortunately for him, when presented with the evidence of what he has done and what he's doing, it's shocking to him because he can't explain it.

Speaker 16 He's not very good in person with people who are holding him accountable.

Speaker 15 He couldn't look you in the eye.

Speaker 16 No, and he became increasingly uncomfortable and tense over the conversation because I was just, Tim, the questions were not hard. I mean, come on.

Speaker 15 No, I mean, honestly, I had a couple notes for you. I was sitting there watching.
I was like, come on, Don, like, get to him.

Speaker 16 But that was, before I get too far off, you know, off track of the point I was making, that was intentional. I wanted very simple questions.
I didn't want people to think I was attacking him.

Speaker 16 I wanted people to get to know about him and get to know about me. And the questions were: where's it with a piece of paper?

Speaker 16 Why did you say this? Quote, these are your own words. I didn't say that.
And you're like, yes, well, I mean, he didn't quite do it that way, but I never said they said, yes, you did.

Speaker 16 Where's the evidence of this?

Speaker 15 Well,

Speaker 16 people in the comment section will put it, and I was like, well, that's really not an answer. The point I was making is that

Speaker 16 man-to-man, he's this very important, you know, gazillionaire who talks shit about me all the time.

Speaker 16 But yet, face to face, when I was this far from him as I am to this camera, he could not tell me how he felt about me. He couldn't defend himself.
But afterwards, he goes on to Twitter and

Speaker 16 encourages his, you know, apologists to attack me.

Speaker 16 He is a keyboard warrior. He is an internet troll now.

Speaker 16 And he is afraid to confront me or talk to me man to man.

Speaker 16 He could have said whatever he wanted to say to me man to man instead of running away saying, oh, I have a meeting or going back behind his keyboard where he has keyboard courage and not courage in person to get people to attack me or to attack me myself or by saying, well, it turns out this isn't what I want.

Speaker 16 I'm taking my marbles and I'm going home.

Speaker 15 Wham.

Speaker 15 Right?

Speaker 16 If you are that strong of a person and you're that important, why not say, hey, man, I didn't agree with Don Lemon, but this is why I have him on the platform because we need to hear all voices.

Speaker 16 In that interview, if he felt that way, it wasn't. I felt like he was attacking me.

Speaker 16 Okay, that's how I came away from it, but still, we need to have these conversations.

Speaker 16 That he doesn't have the EQ for that and he doesn't like to be confronted. And I think it's very obvious.
I'm shocked that so many people are defending him.

Speaker 15 No, and he doesn't want to have conversations. He doesn't.

Speaker 16 Like, he doesn't.

Speaker 16 He wants to shit post and he doesn't want people to criticize him and and it's obvious that twitter is throttling criticisms of elon and tesla and all that he says he's for free speech and it's like well you know and it's obvious they're doing these things and they're what do you call it shadow banning people and throttling meaning they are suppressing content and i mean i just went on my thing like i have no evidence i could never prove it i'm sure if i looked at their analytics and maybe they could i'm sure they were throttling my stuff afterwards because he just probably didn't want to see it on his site my friend said that's what i would do why'd you stay on I'm still on, too.

Speaker 15 People get mad at me, but I want to know what you're on.

Speaker 16 Well, I'm on now because, again, I want people to, I'm not afraid to be on it. I don't have to promote it, you know, if I don't want to.

Speaker 15 You don't worry that it like lends your credibility to him or whatever, or that you're, by being on, you're helping him maintain some influence over this town square.

Speaker 15 And if we like put them into some MAGA ghetto of weirdos and freaks, then they wouldn't have as much influence if everybody left. Like, that would be the counter argument.

Speaker 16 Well, listen, listen, people can feel that way if they want. The reason I went into it is because it's a big platform and people are still on it like you and like me.

Speaker 16 Although I went back to it because of this, I had stopped posting or paying attention to it. But I think it's huge.
It is too big and too important of a platform to cede it to extremists.

Speaker 16 But it appears that's what it's becoming.

Speaker 16 And I think it's unless he changes course and unless he starts to listen to people like me and people like you and he he starts to you know not throttle our stuff and to really engage with people like us then it's just going to become a platform just for extremists and election deniers and MAGA and really it's just going to be and people who just pat Elon Musk on the on the back and you know go oh you're so great I love you so much so why am I on it I'm on it you know one because I want people to know that I lived up to my side of the bargain and I'm still living up to it I also think people don't understand there it's not as if it's not as black and white you know it's not like there's only people that are totally Elon minions or people that are repulsed by him.

Speaker 15 There are persuadable people out there, and it's important that they hear from other voices besides Elon's, you know, it just is.

Speaker 16 It's true.

Speaker 16 Listen, I don't, again, I have nothing against Elon Musk except the stuff that he puts out there and which I asked him about, which I questioned him about, and he couldn't answer for a lot of it or his answers were sort of nonsensical for much of it.

Speaker 16 But he also had some very good answers to things, and I understood him. You know, when he talked about why you use ketamine, okay, it's for depression.
People do it.

Speaker 16 I've had drug-guided therapy before. I have suffered from depression.
I am on SSRIs. So look, those things I thought were interesting, and that was a meeting of the minds.

Speaker 16 And there were other things that we discussed and other answers that he had that I thought were completely fine.

Speaker 16 And they may not have been what, you know, something that I agreed with, but okay, I get it. That's you're conservative.
You're libertarian or whatever it is you say you are. And that's how you feel.

Speaker 16 But I just think, Tim,

Speaker 16 when people people say they want us on those platforms and they want to hear from people with diverse opinions, I think that they're in such echo chambers, and this is kind of goes back to, you know, cable news or whatever.

Speaker 16 They're in such echo chambers that when they actually hear the other side and they hear truth and facts, it is just so anathema to them that they're like, wait, what?

Speaker 16 And they automatically think that you're lying or you have an agenda just because. And that's not necessarily so.

Speaker 16 It's just that they're used to people feeding them the line all the time and agreeing with their world perspective and their point of view so much that when they hear another one, it just freaks them out.

Speaker 16 And I think that's what happened with Elon.

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Speaker 15 All right. A few other just topics I just want to get your real quick thoughts on things that I've like I want to know what Don Lemon thinks about this.

Speaker 15 The data around the fact that Joe Biden and Democrats are losing altitude with black voters, that Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Speaker 15 is pulling pretty well with black voters, younger black voters are upset about God. What do you attribute it to?

Speaker 16 What do I attribute that to? I attribute it to that people feel that, again, that they're not being heard.

Speaker 16 They feel that people, and I'm speaking in general, not just for Joe Biden, and I'll get more specific in a second, that people say things when they are, you know, running for office.

Speaker 16 So they go into a black diner or whatever restaurant when they're running for office, and then I never really hear from you again.

Speaker 16 I'm not saying that's the case with Joe Biden or Kamala Harris because I actually think that they're doing things that do affect people of color and do help people of color, especially if you look at just household income and wealth, the inequality in this country.

Speaker 16 And it's usually minorities, especially people of color who are at the bottom. So I think they're helping with that when it comes to student loans, et cetera.

Speaker 16 But I just think that when you're in office and you know it's a limited amount of time,

Speaker 16 you know, even like President Obama, when you say, you know, I'm not the president of black America, I'm not the president of white America, I'm the president of America. That's true.
That is true.

Speaker 16 But you have to understand that not everyone has had a fair shake in America.

Speaker 16 And if you are in a position to help those in a very limited amount of time to help the people who are the underserved communities in this country, time is running out.

Speaker 16 Time's a wasting, then you need to do it and not, you know, try to be so, well, I'm not the president of black America, white America, Hispanic America, gay America, straight America. Yes.

Speaker 16 But in that America, you know what's up. And especially if you are a Democrat and you're a progressive, you know what's up when it comes to underserved communities.
So I really do think that's it.

Speaker 16 And I also think that the Democrats, just quite frankly,

Speaker 16 the economy is, we're doing well. We have the best economy in the world.

Speaker 16 Their messaging is just not good. They're not good at politicking.
Republicans are very good at picking slogans and messaging and politicking. They play the long game.
Look at what happened with Roe.

Speaker 16 Right? Look at what happened with the Supreme Court. If Democrats would just do that and not be so afraid of criticism and not be afraid, not allow

Speaker 16 their detractors and their opponents to define them. And that happened a lot for me when I was working in news, broadcast, and cable.

Speaker 16 Oh my gosh, people are going to think that we are conservative or liberal. People are going to, who gives a fuck?

Speaker 16 As long as you're doing the right thing, why do you care what your enemy or what someone who doesn't like you? Why do you care what they say about you?

Speaker 16 Why do you care what someone who is never going to write something or say something in the media kindly about you or in your favor, even if you're doing a good job?

Speaker 16 Why do you care about what they think and say? Just do you.

Speaker 16 So I wish Democrats, who I think at the moment is the only party who's really looking out for the country, I'm not saying they're doing everything right, but if you look at conservatives, look at what's happening with the House with Kevin McCarthy and, you know, Johnson, they're trying to oust him, they're in chaos and they're actually not trying to help people.

Speaker 16 So Democrats, continue on trying to keep democracy intact. Forget about what your opponents are thinking and saying about you, and just do your thing.
Have some guts like Republicans do.

Speaker 16 Go in, go hard, and just get it done. You're only in office for a limited amount of time and you're only in office at the will of the people.
And the people can vote you out at any moment.

Speaker 16 So while you're there, don't waste it.

Speaker 15 I totally agree with that. I want to throw one other thing because it's kind of across sexual identities on this question.

Speaker 15 Some people would say, I want to be careful about how I say this, but I think it's an important conversation to have.

Speaker 15 What I'm not saying is that like the black community is more more disproportionately homophobic or whatever.

Speaker 15 But some people, I think, point out that Donald Trump is doing better with young black men who maybe have less educational attainment, who don't really love kind of the femininization, the LGBTization of culture.

Speaker 15 They think that the Democratic Party

Speaker 15 doesn't really represent them as well. Do you think that there's a cultural

Speaker 15 element to this, that Donald Trump is kind of appealing to younger black men on that, on those grounds, or not really?

Speaker 16 I would say stay tuned to the Don Lemon Show for Monday because I spoke to D.L. Hughley and we talked about this, and he has a very good answer.
His answer is better than mine.

Speaker 15 This was an unintentional promo, by the way. And I've been trying to get D.L.
Hughley on, too. So great.
I'm excited to watch that.

Speaker 16 You should. D.L.
is great. You know, he sort of relates it to, especially about black men being attracted to Donald Trump and the MAGA movement.

Speaker 16 He said, you know, it's kind of like, it's kind of like rap music. You know, all that shit.
He goes, the airplanes and the money, you see in the rap rap videos, he says, rap videos.

Speaker 16 You know, it's not real. And it's the same thing for the MAGA people.
It's the same thing for Donald Trump. It's all a facade.
It's all a lie, and it's fake.

Speaker 16 So I think that's just the entertainment aspect of it. You know, he stands up for people.
He's a badass. He's got a lot of money.
He's got a plane. He's got gold, whatever.

Speaker 16 That's appealing to a certain demographic of black men.

Speaker 15 But I also think, honestly, there are black conservatives.

Speaker 16 You know, I think black people are conservative socially, at least where I, you know, grew up in Louisiana, and most black people are from the South.

Speaker 16 The majority of African Americans live in the South. The South is very red.
They're very church-going and religious, and I think that has a lot to do with it.

Speaker 16 But I really don't think that there is a big enough contingent of African-American men or black men that's going to change anything in the polling.

Speaker 16 So, you know, I think this polling about losing, you know, black men to MAGA, I think that's sort of, that's overstated.

Speaker 16 But I do think it's enough of a concern that Democrats should be worried about it and why they're not appealing to those people. Part of it is just, as I said, just messaging.

Speaker 16 And that's just, you know, it's great to, to be rich and do all those things. That's why they appeal to MAGA.

Speaker 16 But I think conservatives, in some sense, do appeal to the conservative nature of African Americans socially. And I think that Democrats should think about that.

Speaker 15 I do think so, too. This is something I say, like, if you look at polls, by the way, like 20% of Democrats, it's going down.

Speaker 15 Maybe it's like in the teens now are like pro-life religious a lot of them are black folks and like they do not exist in media like that person does not exist in the media at all and it's like a fifth of the democratic party so i do think that there are ways that democrats could speak to them okay also i have a book i have a book on religion coming out and i explain some of that stuff too oh really why does it another promo It's called I Once Was Lost, My Search for God in America.

Speaker 16 Did you find it? It came out after the election, and I think I actually did find it.

Speaker 15 Well, we're going to have to do that again next year. We can do all God.
We're just going to do God and Louisiana and gay stuff the next time, just sort of the intersection.

Speaker 15 But if we leave, there's some drops.

Speaker 16 No, no, I got it. God's gays and gumbo.
Go.

Speaker 15 God's gays and gumbo. Boom.

Speaker 15 2025. Hopefully, we still have a democracy then.
You can be back. We can do a whole episode on that.

Speaker 15 All right. But we have to leave.
So, Kim Mulkey, people don't know, she's the coach of the LSU women's basketball team. She went on a rant this week.

Speaker 15 There's apparently a Washington Post article coming out about her. And I want to know if you struggle with this like me, because in some ways, she's like a gay icon.
She's fabulous.

Speaker 15 Her outfits, you know like she's out there playing and and she's coaching these young black women and i was watching this press conference and it's like flange johnson and angel reese are like playing their singles for her and they seem to be having a good time so that's the one side of kim mulkey that that makes me and i know this kind of woman in louisiana you know sort of a older culturally conservative woman but it's still really in touch but still like likes gays and black you know what i mean so she doesn't seem to me like she's like a hateful person on the other hand seems like she was pretty mean to britney griner Griner.

Speaker 15 I don't know what's going to come out in the story. Seems like she obviously has some also some demons.
I don't know. Kim Mulkey.
I need to know what Don Lemon thinks about Kim Mulkey.

Speaker 16 Well, I don't know what's going to come out in the story, but she's threatening to sue the Washington Post, right?

Speaker 16 And so I just remember, and I'm sure you can relate, when I, you know, I came out, God,

Speaker 16 more than a decade ago, I think the only people who were out in media were Rachel Maddow and Thomas Roberts. At least, you know, people who were, who people knew are on television.

Speaker 15 You beat Anderson? I need to have a gay time.

Speaker 16 Yeah, yeah, I did. I mean, not long, not by much, but I think like a year or so.
Yeah. So I think,

Speaker 16 you know,

Speaker 16 they come from that era, as you said. And I'm not making any excuses because people told me, No, I wouldn't do it.
You're going to be known as the gay anchor.

Speaker 16 People don't need to know about your sexuality and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So there was a time when I understood why people were saying that, even though that wasn't my belief.

Speaker 16 And finally, I just said,

Speaker 16 as a journalist, I'll get back to Kim sports or whatever. As a journalist, I have to have the same standards for myself that I have for people.

Speaker 16 So I can't expect to question people and have them come on and say, you need to be transparent.

Speaker 16 You need to tell me the truth about what you're doing and what you're saying, whatever, when I was hiding something. Now, look, people can feel the way that they feel.

Speaker 16 You know, I think that if you are a person who has a platform now and you're not out, then you're not doing it right. I mean, why are you afraid and why are you hiding?

Speaker 16 And I know people say it's nobody's business, but I think there's deception and silence.

Speaker 15 Okay. Is it by far the best decision I ever made for my psychology? I ever made to say that to anybody that ever asked me.
Best decision I ever made. Yeah.

Speaker 15 And then my husband, then my people get, well, like, what about your kid? And I'm like, well, my kid happened because I did that thing first, right?

Speaker 15 Like, all the good stuff that happened for me came from that decision. So totally.

Speaker 16 People go through all these mental gymnastics in their head. They're like, why do people need to know? And I'm like, well, if someone said, do you have kids?

Speaker 16 So you go, well, that's none of your business. If someone says, do you have a wife?

Speaker 16 That's none of your business. I say, well, then the only reason you're hiding it is because you think there's wrong or it's going to hurt you in some way.
Amen.

Speaker 16 And so, anyways, so I can understand maybe years ago getting that

Speaker 16 advice from the coach.

Speaker 16 I can understand why she said it, but in this day and age, and especially in sports, it's a whole different thing.

Speaker 15 Just for context, she was telling Brittany Griner, who

Speaker 15 wanted to not to come out when she was coaching her at Baylor.

Speaker 16 Or not to talk about her sexuality or whatever.

Speaker 15 Not to talk about it.

Speaker 16 Again, I don't know the specifics behind what they're going to write, so I'll give her a little leeway right now.

Speaker 16 But I think in this day and age, to tell someone not to come out and not to talk about their sexuality is doing an injustice, not only to the world, which can benefit from that, but especially to the person who is gay or lesbian or bisexual or what have you.

Speaker 16 I think it doesn't help them and can ultimately lead to some really bad things by suppressing who and what they are.

Speaker 15 Amen. I agree with that.

Speaker 15 I don't know what will happen. I hope for the young women,

Speaker 15 for Angel and Flanger, I hope that those LSU tigers keep on winning and we'll see what happens at the Washington Post story.

Speaker 15 And if you have a name like Blanger, Blanjé, man, Flangette, fabulous. Just be here.

Speaker 15 She's my favorite. Okay.
Don Lemon, thanks so much. Go, Tigers, fellow Louisiana.
And I'm not really Louisiana and I'm adopted.

Speaker 15 Are you native? You're native? Where are you born?

Speaker 16 Baton Rouge? Hudat. Hudat.
I was born at Baton Rouge General Hospital.

Speaker 15 Baton Rouge General Hospital. Well, shout out to BR General.
And

Speaker 15 we'll do this next year. God's Gazing Gumbo.
Thank you, Don Lemon, for coming on the Bulwark podcast. We'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 16 Tim, it's a pleasure. And sorry about the comedy of errors errors in the beginning.

Speaker 15 No, baby, all good. All good.
See you later. Bye.

Speaker 15 Alimonyama. Get it from her mama.
She out with her shutters.

Speaker 15 She takes a bit and takes it as she wanna.

Speaker 15 it, and she wanna

Speaker 15 break it down

Speaker 15 the bone, money on the floor

Speaker 15 Come on over,

Speaker 15 come on over,

Speaker 15 When I'm in that pissy, I'm about the law.

Speaker 15 If I had the word, I still would end it all.

Speaker 15 Thousand new reasons not to get involved.

Speaker 15 I'ma call my ex and say I love her and the bastards. Drinking from a bottle, she removed me like a bastard.
Triple winged angel, but they turn me to a bastard.

Speaker 15 Got me doing favors that a nuke would never ask for. Break it down,

Speaker 15 bust it on the bone. Money on the floor.
Come on, own the car.

Speaker 15 come on, own the car

Speaker 15 Take it down and toss it on the floor Money on the floor and come on

Speaker 15 the car

Speaker 15 The Bullard podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown

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