Bill Kristol and Ben Wittes: A Subversive Enterprise

Speaker 1 California has millions of homes that could be damaged in a strong earthquake.

Speaker 7 Older homes are especially vulnerable to quake damage, so you may need to take steps to strengthen yours.

Speaker 3 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com to learn how to strengthen your home and help protect it from damage.

Speaker 14 The work may cost less than you think and can often be done in just a few days.

Speaker 16 Strengthen your home and help protect your family.

Speaker 17 Get prepared today and worry less tomorrow.

Speaker 20 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com.

Speaker 22 There's nothing like sinking into luxury. Anibay sofas combine ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price.

Speaker 22 Anibay has designed the only fully machine washable sofa from top to bottom. The stain-resistant performance fabric slip covers and cloud-like frame duvet can go straight into your wash.

Speaker 22 Perfect for anyone with kids, pets, or anyone who loves an easy-to-clean, spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slip covers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style.

Speaker 22 Whether you need a single chair, love seat, or a luxuriously large sectional, Annabe has you covered. Visit washable sofas.com to upgrade your home.

Speaker 22 Sofas start at just $699 and right now, get early access to Black Friday savings up to 60% off store-wide with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Shop now at washable sofas.com.

Speaker 21 Add a little

Speaker 22 to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 21 Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm Tim Miller.
We've got a big day today. On the back end, we'll have Ben Wittis just fresh off his being sanctioned by the Russian Federation.

Speaker 21 Very happy for Ben on that achievement. But first, we've got Bill Crystal.
Much to discuss. Bill, how are you doing? Not sanctioned, but congratulations to Ben.

Speaker 21 Yeah, unsanctioned, you're free to take a Tucker Carlson-esque trip to check out the local grocery chains and anywhere else that you want to go still in Russia. You hate to even joke about it, right?

Speaker 21 It's so horrible. And then people treating this election as if it were a real election.

Speaker 21 It is horrible. It is horrible.
And speaking of this election as if it was a real election, I don't know if you saw this over the weekend. Well, I know you saw it actually.

Speaker 21 So I don't want to pretend like I don't know. The former president had a pretty interesting introduction to his speech in Ohio.
Let's take a listen.

Speaker 23 Ladies and gentlemen, please rise for the horribly and unfairly treated January 6th hostages.

Speaker 21 Okay, that's enough. We had Trump saluting.
during that whole time like he was Gaddafi or something, like a weird, you know, Libyan dictator. I don't know.

Speaker 21 What were your thoughts about the hostages in that new intro with kind of the World Wrestling Federation mixed with Gaddafi, mixed with,

Speaker 21 you know, releasing General Raddock from Air Force One? You know, as I said in morning shots this morning, I thought I was inured to Trump and all of his horrors.

Speaker 21 And I've kind of told myself over and over, as you have too, I'm sure, you know, got to just

Speaker 21 blood pressure, keep calm, you know, keep calm and carry on and all that. And I felt physically sick, I gotta say, listening to that and watching that.

Speaker 21 I mean, these are the people who violently stormed the Capitol. Trump's responsible for it in large measure, but they obviously made the choice to do it.

Speaker 21 They've been convicted, duly convicted, and fair trials in courts of law. And they're now being called hostages, and the crowd is standing.

Speaker 21 And Trump is saluting them, saluting, something that our military does as a matter of protocol and order and demonstration of kind of respect for law, really, right?

Speaker 21 For what's the famous line, you salute the office,

Speaker 21 not the man, you know, I mean, it's precisely almost embodies what it means not to be in the service of a willful arbitrary dictator. And here Trump is saluting.

Speaker 21 I just, it really, it got to me, I've got to say. It did too, because it just, it also feels just so un-American.

Speaker 21 I mean, it is un-American directly in the sense, right, that we're saluting people that stormed the Capitol. But just the whole scene of it

Speaker 21 feels as if it is out of a bad movie or a third world country. You know, it just does not have the feel of somebody that has respect for the country and the traditions.

Speaker 21 Do you also get that sense? Totally. And I tweeted this a little over the top, probably

Speaker 21 about Horst Vessel, the Nazi song that was a tribute to this martyr, alleged martyr in Horst Vessel. I think he had written it actually, maybe.

Speaker 21 And which became a kind of co-national anthem of Nazi Germany, along with Deutschland du Berales. And that is what authoritarian and let's use the word fascist movements do, right?

Speaker 21 And this is a little complicated because it's sort of the national anthem, but it's sort of a garbled and mashed-up version of the national anthem being sung by this J6 choir.

Speaker 21 I mean, there is something about treating the song of your

Speaker 21 self-proclaimed martyrs, of your movement, as equal to the national anthem that's itself so at a big rally with the standing and the saluting. I don't try not to overuse the Nazi comparison.

Speaker 21 It is not really quite a Nazi comparison, obviously, but there's something genuinely deeply creepy about it. Yeah, creepy and fascistic.
I made the point that,

Speaker 21 you know, these were also the people that were very up in arms about Colin Kaepernick taking a knee during the national anthem.

Speaker 21 And I do think it puts a different light on this, on those sorts of critiques.

Speaker 21 I'm mad about the black national anthem also being sung at the Super Bowl, but also we have a new flag now that has a blue line on it. And now we also have a kind of sectarian national anthem.

Speaker 21 It kind of, I think, reveals a little bit about what was really underlying some of those critiques from the past. Absolutely.
There was another thing that happened at the speech.

Speaker 21 There was a little brouhaha over the weekend about, and it was Trump using the term bloodbath, which I have to say, I think that some of this was a little overwrought. I used the term bloodbath.

Speaker 21 I think I used it on this podcast last week talking about what happened at the RNC. So the question is about the context of this.

Speaker 21 And so, you know, for folks that missed it, that were actually enjoying their weekend and did not see the back and forth. Basically, what has happened is Trump.

Speaker 21 This is also the problem with dissecting these Trump speeches, is that a lot of times it's nonsense garbles speak.

Speaker 21 I mean, you know, he's like an Auro Boros, the snake, just kind of these sentences like goes out and comes back, and they don't follow a rational, logical verb, predicate, noun,

Speaker 21 predicate, sentence structure.

Speaker 21 But in short, basically, he's talking about the plants that are being built in China and how the auto industry in Ohio and in the Midwest is, you know, going to suffer and is suffering under Biden.

Speaker 21 And then he says, now, if I don't get elected, it's going to be a bloodbath for the country. That'll be the least of it, but they're not going to sell those cars.

Speaker 21 So, you know, if you want to call that a sentence or sentences, okay, you can dissect it if you want.

Speaker 21 Several people in the media were kind of claiming that he's saying that if he loses, there will be a bloodbath and kind of alluding to January 6th.

Speaker 21 Others were saying he's just talking about the car industry. Your colleague, our colleague, Andrew Egger,

Speaker 21 got some attention for saying, well, no, actually, he pretty clearly says it's going to be a bloodbath of the country, and that'll be the least of it.

Speaker 21 So how do you assess the kind of bloodbath brouhaha? I mean, I wouldn't obsess on the sentence. And as we said earlier, I was just kind of obsessed with the hostages and the, quote, hostages

Speaker 21 and that horrible part of the speech. But look, when you said the RNC was a bloodbath, you know what? You haven't called for killing people who worked at the RNC.

Speaker 21 You haven't called for beating them up. You haven't called for putting them in camps.

Speaker 21 You haven't said that there'll be retribution and vengeance against them in the future, except you might personally not choose to hire them for some enterprise that you're involved in, but that's a free country.

Speaker 21 I definitely would choose not to hire them for an enterprise I'm involved in.

Speaker 21 So you know what? No one thinks when you say bloodbath that you're calling for a bloodbath.

Speaker 21 When Donald Trump uses words like that, and he does so routinely, of course, it's not quite like a normal politician or a normal commentator using a colorful term.

Speaker 21 And people are entitled to be a little alarmed, though, as I say, I think there are even more alarming things in that speech and in every other speech.

Speaker 21 And in his, not just his speeches, but in his actual program for 2025. The pardon power, which I mentioned also in warning shots.

Speaker 21 So, of course, the context of the hostages, quote, hostages, I even hate to use that term.

Speaker 21 I mean, it's so offensive after when there were real Americans being held hostage and obviously in the Gaza Strip, but also in... Russia, to get back to that unpleasant topic.

Speaker 21 Anyway, so why does he talk about the hostages? Because he's going to pardon them. The pardon power, that is really dangerous in a Trump second term.

Speaker 21 When he says he's going to pardon people who've committed violence doing something he wanted them to do, what is he saying about the future? You do something that I want you to do.

Speaker 21 You're outside the government. The government can't quite get around to doing it.
You take the law into your own hands. Here's a pardon.
You're in the government. Someone tells you you can't do that.

Speaker 21 It's not really authorized by the law and the regulations. You do it anyway because you're furthering Trump's wishes.
Here's a pardon.

Speaker 21 The pardon power, the way Trump talks about it and glories in it in the context of all the rest of his rhetoric is an invitation to violence.

Speaker 21 So people are entitled to be a little more alarmed when Trump uses the term bloodbath than a normal commentator does. Yeah, I totally agree.

Speaker 21 You know, the MAGA defenders and the apologists and like the worst people in America who, you know, who are always looking for any excuse to be able to defend Trump because they can't defend him on the merits, you know, they come out and say, well, you have to look at the context.

Speaker 21 He's talking about the auto industry.

Speaker 21 And it's kind of like, well, no, actually, we could take the aperture back a little bit on that context and think about the broader context, which was there was maybe not a bloodbath, but there was blood shed after he last lost an election because he refused to accept defeat.

Speaker 21 Like that happened after his last loss.

Speaker 21 So when you support a nominee for president that incited a deadly riot at the Capitol after his last loss, then part of the baggage associated with that, when you nominate him again, unbelievably, is that when he talks about a bloodbath after the next election, that some people might take that literally.

Speaker 21 The pardon thing, Paul Manafort, there's a report out of the Washington Post today that Paul Manafort is back to advising Trump, at least informally and possibly formally again.

Speaker 21 I do think that it kind of got lost because of the timing. It was after Christmas, I believe, or maybe right before Christmas of 2020, that Paul Manafort was pardoned by Trump.

Speaker 21 So this is during the Stop the Steal. It was a couple of weeks before January 6th.

Speaker 21 And it was the type of pardon that in a different administration, in a more normal administration where there was not an insurrection a few weeks later, you know, would have, I think, just totally dominated coverage and would have been treated like Mark Rich on steroids, which is what it was.

Speaker 21 It was an absolutely treasonous pardon. I mean, Paul Manafort was colluding with the Russians, was dealing with Russian intelligence sources.

Speaker 21 Even the Republican Senate report that looked into the Russian interference in the election said that Paul Manafort was doing influence work for the Russian government and its interests.

Speaker 21 That's a direct quote from the Republican Senate report. And then he

Speaker 21 did not cooperate with federal officials that wanted to investigate his work, his influence work with the Russian government. He was jailed.

Speaker 21 Donald Trump pardoned him, all the while getting an assist from Russia, of course. And now,

Speaker 21 with everything that we've learned since and all the actions of Russia since, Donald Trump is now bringing this person that he pardoned back into the mix. It's really astounding.

Speaker 21 Yeah, and really dangerous. I mean, he also pardoned, I think, Flynn and Roger Stone and

Speaker 21 Steve Bannon between Election Day and January 6th, I think. He'd used the pardon power earlier and talked about using it earlier to attempt to thwart the course of justice.

Speaker 21 He really started to use it after when he was trying to overturn the election results.

Speaker 21 And he obviously learned, in a sense, maybe you already had the sense of it, but he really learned how powerful that could be, I think, in accomplishing his aims if he ever gets back into the presidency.

Speaker 21 And so, yeah, the Manafort re-emerging. And incidentally, all those Republicans you mentioned briefly before, senators, members of Congress, all these, they're reluctantly supporting Trump.

Speaker 21 Could one of them say a word about the propriety of Manafort or Steve Band, for that matter, being part of Trump's inner circle? I mean, it's just, why even bother? Why am I even asking this question?

Speaker 21 I don't know.

Speaker 21 But I mean, it is a subversive, if I could put it that way, enterprise that Trump is involved in, subversive of our Constitution, subversive of the Republic.

Speaker 21 And all these people are just, well, I don't prove some of the things he says. I wouldn't say it that way myself, you know, but nothing, they don't take it seriously.
Mike Pence takes it seriously.

Speaker 21 No one else seems to. He does.
And let's get into Mike Pence. I bet I wrote on to them.
I mean, you're saying subversive. When I wrote about the Manafort thing in 2020, I pulled back up that article.

Speaker 21 I called it treasonous at the time.

Speaker 21 I just, I don't know how to otherwise explain it. I mean, Russia engaged in an attack on our democratic elections.
Manafort was speaking to and colluding with Russian intelligence during that time.

Speaker 21 He lied and concealed this effort when the American government tried to investigate it in order to protect himself. And then Donald Trump pardoned him for it.

Speaker 21 So you don't need to split hairs about that.

Speaker 21 He was literally working with the people that are attacking America. So you define that however you want.
Okay, Mike Pence is somebody that does see this clearly.

Speaker 21 Over the weekend, he was asked about whether he would endorse Trump on Fox News and said no. He said he also is not going to vote for Joe Biden.

Speaker 21 He said he's not going to reveal who he's going to vote for.

Speaker 21 And he expressed dismay about on a range of issues, Donald Trump, but specifically, like you just did, mentioned his use of hostages and referring to January 6th hostages at a time when there are actual real-life American hostages.

Speaker 21 So what was your take on Mike Pence, hero of democracy, just barely passing the bar? Where do you stand? He's progressing.

Speaker 21 I mean, incidentally, the first time he said this was Thursday or Friday that he wouldn't support Trump, it was kind of because Trump's not a true conservative.

Speaker 21 He doesn't support the conservative agenda. And it's like, really? I mean, isn't there a little more?

Speaker 21 He mentioned abortion. Trump's a little too weak-kneed on abortion for him.
I'm like, is this helping him?

Speaker 21 You're kind of helping Donald Trump right now by saying that he's too moderate on abortion for him.

Speaker 21 And then, you know, he doesn't support, I don't know, what, you know, balanced budgets or something.

Speaker 21 I was glad to see Tense on Sunday did move a little further into mentioning January 6th, which incidentally seems to be basically forboden to be mentioned by any Republican, right?

Speaker 21 I mean, it's like the eye roll. If you're like, oh, you're going to talk about that whole thing again, the storming of the Capitol.

Speaker 21 And maybe it's good political advice that, you know, Democrats shouldn't talk about it all the time because you've got to talk about kitchen table issues and people don't understand democracy, quote unquote.

Speaker 21 I think they kind of do understand storming the Capitol, though. And I think January 6th has an actual issue in the fact that Trump is literally on the side of the insurrectionists.

Speaker 21 I mean, he incited them, but he could have said, and many people said right after, well, he kind of was an accident, didn't really expect him to storm the Capitol. And he could have said nothing.

Speaker 21 They're not even pretending that there's any, you know, regret or second thoughts or, you know, a little bit of distancing from the insurrection. I mean, the thing that was the Trump rally.

Speaker 21 This was not a, you know, what's that, Charlie Kirk organization, a turning point. This was not like some Trump-adjacent thing.
This was a rally for Trump.

Speaker 21 The announcer, who presumably was instructed by the Trump campaign as to what to say, please stand for these brave, for the hostages, Trump the salute. I mean, that is what the alternative is in 2024.

Speaker 25 Master distiller Jimmy Russell knew Wild Turkey Bourbon got it right the first time. So for over 70 years, he hasn't changed a damn thing.

Speaker 25 Our pre-prohibition style bourbons are aged longer and never watered down. So you know it's right too.

Speaker 25 For whatever you do with it, Wild Turkey 101 bourbon makes an old-fashioned or bold fashion for bold nights out or at home.

Speaker 25 Wild Turkey Bourbon, aged longer, never watered down to create one bold flavor. Copyright 2025 of Harry America, New York B, or never compromised drink responsibly.

Speaker 21 Ah,

Speaker 25 greetings from my bath, festive friends.

Speaker 24 The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money, getting 5% cash back when I pay in four.

Speaker 21 No fees, no interest.

Speaker 24 I used it to get this portable spa with jets.

Speaker 21 Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body.

Speaker 24 Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal.

Speaker 21 Save the offer and the app. NS1231, see paypal.com slash promo terms, points keep your renee for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval.
PayPal Inc. and MLS 910457.

Speaker 1 California has millions of homes that could be damaged in a strong earthquake.

Speaker 6 Older homes are especially vulnerable to quake damage, so you may need to take steps to strengthen yours.

Speaker 3 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com to learn how to strengthen your home and help protect it from damage.

Speaker 14 The work may cost less than you think and can often be done in just a few days.

Speaker 16 Strengthen your home and help protect your family.

Speaker 17 Get prepared today and worry less tomorrow.

Speaker 20 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com.

Speaker 22 Time for a sofa upgrade. Introducing Anibay sofas, where designer style meets budget-friendly prices.
Every Anibay sofa is modular, allowing you to rearrange your space effortlessly.

Speaker 22 Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anibay is the only machine-washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy.

Speaker 22 Liquids Liquids simply slide right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high-resilience foam lets you choose between a sink-in feel or a supportive memory foam blend.

Speaker 22 Plus, our pet-friendly, stain-resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price.
Visit washable sofas.com to upgrade your living space today.

Speaker 22 Sofas start at just $699 with no risk returns and a 30-day money-back guarantee. Get early access to Black Friday now.
The biggest sale of the year can save you up to 60% off.

Speaker 22 Plus, free shipping and free returns. Shop now at washable sofas.com.
Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 21 It was not just Pence among the senior Trump staffers that were speaking out.

Speaker 21 His former Defense Secretary Esper had some pretty alarming comments about his private conversations with Trump and what he would expect from a second Trump term. Let's take a listen.

Speaker 24 You know, eventually it culminated,

Speaker 24 the long break, simmering break between he and myself in June of 2020 when he wanted to to deploy active duty troops on the street of Washington, D.C., and suggested actually that we shoot

Speaker 24 Americans in the street. So, I mean, that's kind of more what you'll see, this very hyper-aggressive behavior and this, you know, willingness to flaunt norms and rules, if you will.

Speaker 21 I mean, sometimes, again, it's like the match between the tone and the words is a little off for me. It's like, you know, there might be some flaunting of norms, if you will, in the next term.

Speaker 21 Like, for example, he wanted to shoot Americans in the street, and we had to talk him down from that. So heroism medal for Mark Esper, maybe not, but the pairing of those things, right?

Speaker 21 Like to have Trump's own vice president this weekend say that he cannot support him because of January 6th, to have his own defense secretary say he cannot support him because he's concerned that he would want to put into place some of the some of the proposals that they discussed apparently in private and up to and including shooting Americans in the street.

Speaker 21 It's pretty remarkable to have both of them kind of speaking out that clearly. I mean, there's not really an analog for that.
Right. And Mark, I've known him a long time.

Speaker 21 He was a foreign policy staffer on the Hill for Fred Thompson and Bill Frist and sort of mainstream Republican.

Speaker 21 And when he went in there, I mean, he wasn't a famous guy like Jim Mattis, and he wasn't, you know, conspicuously, you might say, standing up to Trump.

Speaker 21 But I knew some people in the Defense Department. And I think he did his best to prevent really terrible things from happening and went along with some things as they all had to, in a sense.

Speaker 21 But I remember being in one of these, maybe we discussed this once, one of these exercises before November before the election day in 2020, what Trump could do.

Speaker 21 People were trying to prepare, I think, intelligently for worrying about the scenario that actually happened.

Speaker 21 And I remember I played Trump because I allegedly knew more about Trump, having been a Republican.

Speaker 21 And I said, well, of course, he'll fire Esper. This was on Zoom.
It was pandemic. There were like 50 of us on Zoom.
And so the chat thing is open, you know.

Speaker 21 And I remember getting a ton of chat things. Hey, that's great, Bill.
You're really getting the spirit of this game. It's important to make us really think outside the box.

Speaker 21 Of course, it'll never happen. When's that ever happened? A president firing Secretary of Defense right after losing an election.
It's like, yeah, I think it could happen.

Speaker 21 And he could probably fire Bill Barr, too, and he could try to take over the national security sectors,

Speaker 21 the something like that, the power agencies, I think the power ministries of the government to help advance his plans. And sure enough, he fired Esper, what, I think, four days after the election.

Speaker 21 And I think Esper's been pretty outspoken and pretty, you know, yes, there's a little mix of the tone and the words are a little maybe off.

Speaker 21 But I think he and other people I've talked to who served in the first Trump administration say if he's elected, he'll invoke the Insurrection Act on January 20th, 2025, when he's sworn in.

Speaker 21 And he'll say he's doing it for the border, because the border's been out of control. But of course, the Insurrection Act is very vague and general, and it does allow you to deploy U.S.

Speaker 21 troops on the soil of the United States, as Trump wanted us to do in June 20th when he got Esper and Milley to march across. Lafayette Square with him.
So, yeah,

Speaker 21 Esper should be promoted more as a sensible voice of alarm who has no personal stake in it. I mean, he really is trying to say what he believes to be true.

Speaker 21 The substance and the stakes of the threat for Esper, the Insurrection Act, et cetera, is super alarming. I have one more sentence on the politics of this.

Speaker 21 I do think that hopefully eventually this will accrue to Biden's benefit.

Speaker 21 Is it possible that we could live in a world where it doesn't sink in that Donald Trump's own vice president, multiple of his defense secretaries, multiple of his national security advisors, all are not supporting him?

Speaker 21 I mean, it's possible.

Speaker 21 Yeah, I hate to tell you this. That's got to sink in with some people, right?

Speaker 24 Is nobody just like, hey, I'm looking around.

Speaker 21 I'm like, well, I don't know. I'm trying to decide between these two guys.
And his own vice president and all of his top staff members say we should never give him power again.

Speaker 21 But my judgment from sitting here in coming Georgia is that, you know, I think that he's probably still better. Yeah.
No, I think it should sink in.

Speaker 21 I think honestly, some people say, well, Biden needs to talk more about that. I don't actually think that's right.

Speaker 21 I think it needs to be, frankly, you know, Sarah Longwell and Republican voters against Trump, but other groups, too, that aren't part of the Biden campaign.

Speaker 21 If it's Biden, then it's like, well, somehow they've sold out to Biden. It really should be an independent effort and many independent efforts.
And I encourage, much as I look, Valve with Sarah.

Speaker 21 And of course, we think we're the best of these efforts, but everyone should get involved in the finding Republicans who've spoken up against Trump and finding former Trump officials, especially who's spoken up against Trump.

Speaker 21 They saw him up close. They really understood what he was trying to do at the Defense Department and and the Justice Department.

Speaker 21 Cassidy Hutchinson and Sarah Matthews and others understood in the White House what was happening. Those people need to be very famous by Election Day 2024.
I agree.

Speaker 21 Okay, rapid fire, a couple of quick other things that are happening. Tom Emmer over in the House, who, as you might recall, he's part of the House leadership.

Speaker 21 He was one of the more supposedly establishment, whatever, Republicans, was castrated by Donald Trump when he attempted to run for Speaker. Apparently, that did not bother him.

Speaker 21 And there's a gathering in West Virginia over the weekend of House Republicans there.

Speaker 21 Apparently, he said that the State of the Union was so divisive that if Biden wins next year, he would not extend him an invitation.

Speaker 21 I just, I feel like I have to bring this up because, you know, if Hakeem Jeffries had suggested this, there would just be, you know, wall-to-wall pearl clutching from the norms crowd.

Speaker 21 You know, we'd have multiple New York Times op-eds about this, but it's kind of hard to break through with these sorts of things on the Republican side.

Speaker 21 But I do think it bears mentioning that Tom Emmer, who supported, you know, as we've been discussing, the man that spurred on an attack of the Capitol, feels like that Joe Biden's, frankly, pretty normal State of the Union address was too much for him.

Speaker 21 And we must now stop the historic practice of the State of the Union. Thoughts on that? Maybe he has ambitions to move up in leadership, you know, still and wants Trump to be okay with him next time.

Speaker 21 That's pretty dark. Okay, yeah.

Speaker 21 On the other side of the hill, there's been some kerfuffle about comments by Chuck Schumer. I've just been kind of wondering what Bill Kristol thinks about this.

Speaker 21 Chuck Schumer basically calling for a new government in Israel. A lot of more pro-Israel folks on the Republican side of the aisle creating a stink about this, talking about how inappropriate it was.

Speaker 21 You know, where do you fall on that?

Speaker 21 I'm sort of of two minds. I mean, I wish there were a new government in Israel.
I wish this and Yahweh would step aside the week after.

Speaker 21 And the custom in Israel has been in a way to stick with the government you have, get the war over with, and then make a change. That's happened two or three times.

Speaker 21 But he's so divisive, and there's so little trust in him that having a national unity government led by Gantz or someone else, I suppose, would have been so much healthier, I think.

Speaker 21 And that's probably still the case. So I think substantively, I agree with Schumer to a large degree.

Speaker 21 It's a little unusual for one of the leaders of one country to tell another country they should have elections, but he's not telling them.

Speaker 21 I guess he's suggesting them, and he's not making any of our aid contingent on that. And he is a genuine friend of Israel.
So as I say, I'm slightly ambivalent.

Speaker 21 As a true supporter of Israel, as I think Schumer is, I really wish Nassan Yahoo would step aside. I kind of agree with that.
That's sort of where I landed on this, too.

Speaker 21 But, you know, sometimes I feel like I'm out of my element on this stuff. Okay, finally, also a very important issue.
I just had to get your take on it after seeing your social media posts.

Speaker 21 Kate Middleton, I don't know if you've noticed she's still not seeing the sun.

Speaker 21 One of the tabloids in the United Kingdom has said that she was spotted this weekend, but there were no photos of it, which is actually weirder than putting up a photo or than saying nothing, I would think.

Speaker 21 But I'm just wondering if you have thoughts as, you know, I feel like we're two of the most prominent anti-monarchists in, you know, all of the West.

Speaker 21 And it seems like you might see an opening for, you know, finally toppling the monarchy somewhere here in the Kate Middleton saga.

Speaker 21 You would think, I didn't really watch the crown, but someone on social media put up the last, you know, one of the very last segments, I think, of the crown, where Prince Philip and Queen Elizabeth are saying, we're the last, we're the last who can keep this going, and it's not going to be sustainable once we leave.

Speaker 21 And I I think there's some truth to that. So yeah, it's time for Kay Middleton to, I hope she's well and she can emerge and then she can start an anti-monarchy party, you know, enough of the crown.

Speaker 21 That would be exciting.

Speaker 21 The Labor Party, I did eight seconds of research on this, the Labour Party has never been, I think as a way of making themselves seem less radical, has never been anti-crown, anti-monarchy.

Speaker 21 In fact, they've gone out of the way at different times. Clement Attlee, way back after World War II.
No, no, we're fine with the monarchy. But I think enough already, you know, and

Speaker 21 they can become a republic and follow in our footsteps 250 years later. Yeah, enough already.
To a constitutional republic led by, let's go even a step further.

Speaker 21 You know, Kate, I don't know, I can take or leave, Kate. Maybe it should be led by an American, Megan Markle.

Speaker 21 Maybe that, I think that is where the United Kingdom is sort of reaching its inevitable conclusion.

Speaker 21 You know, sort of the final battle of the revolution, if you will, is Meghan Markle acceding to the prime ministership. It can't be called the United Kingdom anymore, though.

Speaker 21 It'll have to be just Great Britain.

Speaker 21 Fair enough. Okay, Bill Kristol, we're up next with the recently sanctioned Ben Wittis.
I'm very excited to talk to him about what's happening in Russia as well as the Trump trials.

Speaker 21 Bill, we'll see you back here next Monday. See you on Monday.

Speaker 1 California has millions of homes that could be damaged in a strong earthquake.

Speaker 7 Older homes are especially vulnerable to quake damage, so you may need to take steps to strengthen yours.

Speaker 3 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com to learn how to strengthen your home and help protect it from damage.

Speaker 14 The The work may cost less than you think and can often be done in just a few days.

Speaker 16 Strengthen your home and help protect your family.

Speaker 17 Get prepared today and worry less tomorrow.

Speaker 20 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com.

Speaker 22 Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? Wash away your worries with Anibay. Anibay is the only machine-washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget-friendly prices.

Speaker 22 That's right, sofas start at just $699.

Speaker 22 Enjoy a no-risk experience with pet-friendly, stain-resistant, and changeable slip covers made with performance fabric.

Speaker 22 Experience cloud-like comfort with high-resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity, and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime.

Speaker 22 Shop washable sofas.com for early Black Friday savings up to 60% off site-wide, backed by a 30-day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund.

Speaker 22 No return shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back.
Upgrade now at washable sofas.com. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 1 California has millions of homes that could be damaged in a strong earthquake.

Speaker 7 Older homes are especially vulnerable to quake damage, so you may need to take steps to strengthen yours.

Speaker 3 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com to learn how to strengthen your home and help protect it from damage.

Speaker 14 The work may cost less than you think and can often be done in just a few days.

Speaker 16 Strengthen your home and help protect your family.

Speaker 17 Get prepared today and worry less tomorrow.

Speaker 20 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com.

Speaker 22 Life gets messy. Spills, stains, and kid chaos.
But with Anibay, cleaning up is easy. Our sofas are fully machine washable, inside and out, so you never have to stress about messes again.

Speaker 22 Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind.

Speaker 22 Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly.

Speaker 22 Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth-friendly and built to last.
That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch.

Speaker 22 Get early access to Black Friday pricing right now. Sofas started just $699.

Speaker 22 Visit washable sofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washable sofas.com.
Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 21 All right, we are back with Ben Wittis, editor-in-chief of law affairs, senior fellow in governance studies at the Brookings Institution, author of Dog Shirt Daily on Substack.

Speaker 21 But Ben, your most important recognition this week comes as you've been officially sanctioned by Russia.

Speaker 21 Well, technically, they sanctioned a guy named Ben Witz, a journalist, but we're going to assume that that was just, you know, maybe a translation error and give you the due congratulations that you deserve.

Speaker 21 How does it feel?

Speaker 24 It feels great. You know, I started these operations against the Russian embassy two years ago.
I've done 11 countries' projection operations.

Speaker 24 And as you know, they've been officially recognized by the President of Ukraine, all of which has been incredibly heartwarming. But there was a missing piece.

Speaker 24 It's like, you know, being frozen out of the Grammys for 30 years or something, and then you get a Lifetime Achievement Award. The Russians came through finally and, you know, gave me that Oscar.

Speaker 24 I projected my thanks to the ambassador on the wall of the embassy this weekend, along with a request that next time they do spell my name correctly. And, you know, all is right with the world now.

Speaker 21 Is there any bittersweet element to it to know that you're not going to be able to visit Vladivostok in winter or, you know, see the beautiful gleaming grocery marts of Volgograd?

Speaker 24 There has been an element of regret. But, you know, here are some things that I'm thinking of doing.
I'm thinking of applying for a visa just to get the letter. that says, no, you're sanctioned.

Speaker 24 You can't have a visa. And that would be like an awesome thing.

Speaker 24 I'm thinking of that, although there is this problem that I can't really set foot in that building because there are sort of Jamal Khashoggi-like concerns.

Speaker 24 Can I apply for a visa by mail? And will there be polonium on the letter that comes back? So there are like, you know, challenges associated with this project.

Speaker 24 But yeah, no, I have actually, all jokes aside, I've always wanted to go to Russia and I have a lot of Russian friends and I actually

Speaker 24 would under different circumstances like to go to Russia.

Speaker 21 But here is the thing.

Speaker 24 Any circumstances in which I would go would involve a different government that would rescind these sanctions anyway.

Speaker 24 So I don't think the marginal impact of not being able to visit the Hermitage under Vladimir Putin is pretty close to zero.

Speaker 21 Plenty of beautiful places to go in the world. I wouldn't sweat.

Speaker 21 Exactly. Before we get to the Trump trials, one other thing I want you to take on related.
Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk, we're liking this guy. Oh, yeah, he's great.

Speaker 21 Trolling Mike Johnson on social media over the weekend, saying, Look at Odessa. How many more arguments do you need to make a decision?

Speaker 21 There was maybe a little bit of movement at the Republican retreat that we discussed with Bill Crystal about potentially having a vote on Ukraine funding under suspension.

Speaker 21 What are your thoughts on the state of play there?

Speaker 24 So, the state of play in Congress is simultaneously, awesomely depressing and a bit encouraging. So, the depressing side is that we're having this conversation.

Speaker 24 There is literal rationing of artillery shells on frontline positions. The Russians took Ovdivka not so long ago.
This is a really costly bit of gamesmanship and bullshit.

Speaker 24 And it's costly, you know, in terms of actual Ukrainian lives and that we're that we're looking for hope in marginal discussions of

Speaker 24 the chicken entrails of Mike Johnson's

Speaker 24 one might say, is really depressing. And that said, the news late last week out of the Republican retreat was in that context encouraging.

Speaker 24 I do think it suggests that he's looking for a way to get this done and get you know, the monkey off his back. It's not, it's not playing well for, you know, Americans actually support Ukraine.

Speaker 24 And so this is, it's not like, you know, abortion, right, where you're adopting a view that very large numbers of people feel incredibly strongly about, but you are adopting a view that the average voter does not share.

Speaker 24 and that the administration's position is very close to that of the median voter. And so it's a bad position for them to be in.
And it does suggest that he's looking for a way out. And

Speaker 24 this is one where, as much as I want to take every little bit out of their hides, the administration and all people who care about Ukraine need to help them find a face-saving solution to just get this done because we actually really do need that money to free up as quickly quickly as possible.

Speaker 24 So thank you, Mike Johnson, for entertaining something approximating reality. And let's get this done.

Speaker 21 All right. Concur.

Speaker 21 Well, I don't know if I concur on the thanks.

Speaker 21 Even if it was a sarcastic thanks, I'm not sure I could get that out of my mouth for Mike Johnson.

Speaker 24 Let me rephrase, Mike Johnson, you are part of the way. toward stopping my campaign of giving $50 a day to trans rights organization in your home state.

Speaker 24 All you have to do is hold that vote or schedule that vote even.

Speaker 21 Fingers crossed. Okay, on to the Trump trials.

Speaker 21 On Friday, Fulton County Superior Court Judge Scott McAfee ruled that Fonnie Willis and Nathan Wade cannot continue to prosecute the electoral interference case against Donald Trump together.

Speaker 21 So Nathan Wade is withdrawing. What say you?

Speaker 21 And I think obviously this is going to cause a delay, but I don't know if a delay really mattered that much in this case, at least with regards to Donald Trump.

Speaker 21 I don't think there was a lot of hope that this was going to come to trial before the election anyway. What other kind of downstream ramifications are there of this?

Speaker 24 So I'm not sure it is going to cause a delay, actually.

Speaker 24 Fulton County to appeal this requires the permission of either Scott McAfee or the Georgia Court of Appeals.

Speaker 24 It's not clear to me that either of them is going to be eager to put this case on hold for 18 months in order to revisit Fonnie Willis's sex life in more detail.

Speaker 24 The opinion is sound and good, and it actually forced her to get rid of Nathan Wade, who had serious credibility problems at this point.

Speaker 24 And so I think it actually potentially frees up Judge McAfee to move this case forward. Now, as you say, the case is not going to move in time to be resolved before the election.

Speaker 24 It's among other things, the state estimates that the presentation of its side of the case alone will take four months.

Speaker 24 So even if you had a, you know, a reasonably prompt start time and there's still some more issues to resolve before you could have a trial, you know, four months is a long case, and I don't think this is likely to start before August.

Speaker 24 And so you're not going to get a verdict in Fulton County before the election. That said, you could have a trial begin.

Speaker 24 I mean, there are some obstacles, but I think you could have a trial begin sometime in the late summer or early fall.

Speaker 24 And I think one of the things that is attractive about Judge McAfee is that unlike Eileen Cannon in Florida, he is moving things along and he rules on motions pretty quickly.

Speaker 24 And I think he's got a pretty expeditious way of handling things. Now he also has

Speaker 24 15 defendants, which was Fonnie Willis's choice, not his.

Speaker 24 He actually has a hard job, unlike some of the other judges in these cases. But I think this case is put back in a position now where it can move.
And that is a healthy thing.

Speaker 21 I want to get to Island Cannon. Just one more thing on this.
I got to say, I'm still pretty annoyed at Fonnie Willis and Nathan Wade.

Speaker 24 Rightly so. Yeah.

Speaker 21 And just, it does feel like from the PR side of this, even if the legal element of it moves forward, it was just kind of like the way that

Speaker 21 they kind of responded to this relationship and was handing this club to Donald Trump to bat them over the head with in a case that is very serious where they've already they've already gotten guilty pleas, right?

Speaker 21 I mean, like there was, there was so much progress in this case and it was so encouraging that it is, you know, it's just annoying.

Speaker 21 It's annoying and disappointing, and it feels like it was preventable.

Speaker 24 I have thought about this a lot over the last few weeks as I watched the evidentiary hearings and the arguments.

Speaker 24 And I have to say, the person whom Fonnie Willis reminds me of most in the world is Bill Clinton. That is, she is.

Speaker 24 dripping with talent. I mean, she's one of the most electric courtroom presences I've ever seen.
She is incredibly bright, and watching her argue emotion is a genuine thing of beauty.

Speaker 24 And she's arrogant as hell

Speaker 24 and

Speaker 24 does not concede an inch ever, even when she can save herself, as you say, a clubbing by just not handing the club to the other side.

Speaker 24 And I do think it's very frustrating in exactly the same way that Bill Clinton was frustrating. You know, she could have gotten rid of Nathan Wade a long time ago and made this issue go away.

Speaker 24 And she just refused to because she was so wrapped up in the, you know, attack on her dignity and her integrity that she could not. see that there was a real problem here.

Speaker 24 And, you know, I do think she gets some real blame for that.

Speaker 21 The Bill Clinton comparison, not really a winner on the Bullware podcast. But I see what you're saying, though.
Talented. There was just unbelievable.

Speaker 21 Sometimes people are too talented for their own good at times. Okay, Eileen Cannon, briefly.
The delay is the theme of the podcast today.

Speaker 21 We also have a delay, another one, in the documents case over what your colleague Roger Parloff called a breathtakingly baseless claim of selective or vindictive prosecution by the former president.

Speaker 21 But despite it being breathtakingly baseless, Judge Eileen Cannon's like, yeah, we got to chew this over for a little while.

Speaker 24 Yeah, so there were two issues argued on Thursday, and

Speaker 24 without going into the

Speaker 24 details of them, one involves the Presidential Records Act. You know, these are arguments that a normal district judge would deal with in a very expeditious and I wouldn't say say disrespectful, but

Speaker 24 they're not arguments that require a great deal of time and energy to resolve. And she is treating each one like it is a major question that you have to hold a hearing about.

Speaker 24 And even when she denies a motion like she did on Thursday, she does it in this fashion that makes it sound like the issue has a lot more gravitas than it really does.

Speaker 24 And she does seem to be setting up a, perhaps an evidentiary hearing on the matter of selective prosecution, which is, frankly,

Speaker 24 somewhere between meritless and trivial. Whatever this is,

Speaker 24 Trump's handling of classified documents is so beyond what other presidents have done that the idea that you would prosecute this case but not others is intuitive, not merely defensible.

Speaker 21 Okay. Final delay in the Hush Money Stormy Daniels case.
We are looking to start that in March.

Speaker 21 You were planning on going up to New York for that, being our special correspondent here later this month.

Speaker 21 That's been kicked to at least mid-April after, I guess, there was a bunch of documents by the federal prosecutors and Southern District of New York, a bunch of, I guess, new material, new documents.

Speaker 21 Can you explain what the delay is in New York?

Speaker 24 Yeah, so this is one that I don't think is going to be a serious issue. It's just going to require a couple of weeks of additional time.

Speaker 24 The federal prosecutors, remember, this case arises out of the federal investigation of Michael Cohen. So the feds, both the Mueller investigation and the New York Attorney's Office, the U.S.

Speaker 24 Attorney's Office in New York, have a lot of documents from their own investigations of this matter and related matter.

Speaker 24 These were requested a long time ago, and they were finally turned over, you know, like, well, the other day, and more of them are coming.

Speaker 21 What was the delay on this from the feds? Where was Merrick Garland? Was Merrick Garland just shampooing his hair instead of turning these over?

Speaker 24 Not a Merrick Garland issue. It's a U.S.
Attorney's Office in New York issue. And I don't know the answer to that question.
I don't think anybody else does either, but it's basically indefensible.

Speaker 24 And so so the feds dumped this very large, I mean, it's tens of thousands of documents on the prosecutors, the New York state prosecutors, and they turned stuff over to the defense promptly.

Speaker 24 But the defense, of course, argues that therefore the case should be dismissed because these are discovery abuses. The prosecutors say, hey, shouldn't be dismissed.

Speaker 24 Come on, don't be ridiculous, but if you need an extra month to review material, we don't object to a month's delay. So the judge has ordered a delay.

Speaker 24 And on March 25th, the day that we were supposed to have the beginning of trial, we will find out how long that delay is. My guess is it'll be two to four weeks and not a lot more than that.

Speaker 21 All right. Lastly, biggest possible picture here.
I'm just looking at all this and

Speaker 21 You know, there was a moment, I guess maybe three months ago in December, where you looked out at the calendar and it looked like, man, like Donald Trump might be in trial a lot, you know, in courtrooms a lot during the general election.

Speaker 21 I'm starting to feel less like that is the case, you know, with the behavior of Cannon.

Speaker 21 You know, it seems like he will still be in court in New York at some point, just maybe a little later in spring. How do you kind of assess

Speaker 21 the broader legal calendar between now and Election Day?

Speaker 24 So I think there's one high probability event. That's New York.
I think that's going to happen in April or early May instead of in late March, but it's going to happen.

Speaker 24 The second is something that's not going to happen. I don't think anybody should plan on a trial in Eileen Cannon's courtroom between now and the election.

Speaker 24 And the third is a matter that might or might not happen. These are the wildcards.
One depends on the Supreme Court.

Speaker 24 That's the Washington trial, which I think everybody kind of agrees is the most important case. The judge in that case is clearly interested in getting things done in a quick fashion.

Speaker 24 Judge Chutkin has moved with alacrity, and I think will move as quickly as she can, subject to whatever the Supreme Court does. And the other one, of course, the other wildcard is Georgia.

Speaker 24 I think it is likely that neither of these cases will be complete by the time of the election, but both of them could be, or one of them, you can't do two trials at the same time, one of them could easily be ongoing at the time of the election.

Speaker 24 And so I still think

Speaker 24 we are likely to have

Speaker 24 one or more trials, but it may just be one

Speaker 24 trial complete and one ongoing at the time of the election. So I still think the premise is right, but

Speaker 24 it's different and it's unlikely that I think we're going to have, have, for those who want to say he's been convicted in two jurisdictions of X number of charges, I don't think we're going to be in a position to say that.

Speaker 21 All right. Ben Wittis, a bulwark salute to you, my friend,

Speaker 21 a defender of democracy. Salute.
You've officially been sanctioned by Russia. Our congratulations.
And we'll be talking to you once some of these trials finally start.

Speaker 24 I'm excited about it.

Speaker 21 Thank you to Ben Wittis. We'll be back here tomorrow and we'll look forward to seeing you all then.
Peace.

Speaker 21 Out with the whimper,

Speaker 21 it's not a place of glory.

Speaker 21 You look down from the temple, as people endeavor to make it a story

Speaker 21 and chisel a marble word. But all is lost, it's never heard.

Speaker 21 But damn my love and damn these friends that keep on holding back their smiles. I save my grace with half-assed guilt and lay down the quilt upon the lawn.

Speaker 21 Spread my arms and soak up congratulations.

Speaker 21 The Bullwork Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 21 Gas, groceries, eating out?

Speaker 22 It all adds up fast.

Speaker 26 With the Verizon Visa card, you get rewarded every time you spend. Get 4% in rewards on gas, dining, and at grocery stores.

Speaker 26 And you can put those rewards toward your Verizon bill or on new tech like a smartwatch and earbuds.

Speaker 22 Apply today at Verizon.

Speaker 26 Application required subject to credit approval must be a Verizon mobile account owner or manager or Fios account owner. See Verizon.com slash Verizon Visa card for terms or restrictions.

Speaker 26 The Verizon Visa Signature Card is issued by Synchrony Bank pursuant to a license from Visa USA Inc.

Speaker 21 This is Martha Stewart from the Martha Stewart podcast. Hi, darlings.
I have a little seasonal secret to share. It's the new Kahlua Duncan Caramel Swirl.

Speaker 21 Kahlua, the beloved coffee liqueur, and Duncan, the beloved coffee destination, paired up to create a treat that is perfect for the holidays. So, go ahead, treat yourself.
Cheers, my dears.

Speaker 27 Must be 21 or older to purchase. Drink responsibly.
Kahlua Caramel Swirl Cream Liqueur, 16% Alcohol by Volume, 32 Proof. Copyright 2025, imported by the Kahua Company, New York, New York.

Speaker 27 Duncan trademarks owned by DDIP Holder LLC, used under license. Copyright 2025, DDIP Holder LLC.

Speaker 1 California has millions of homes that could be damaged in a strong earthquake.

Speaker 7 Older homes are especially vulnerable to quake damage, so you may need to take steps to strengthen yours.

Speaker 3 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com to learn how to strengthen your home and help protect it from damage.

Speaker 14 The work may cost less than you think and can often be done in just a few days.

Speaker 16 Strengthen your home and help protect your family.

Speaker 17 Get prepared today and worry less tomorrow.

Speaker 20 Visit strengthenyourhouse.com.