Mark Hertling: Defending American Values

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovny, and Carise Van Houten.

Speaker 7 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny, infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 3 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 9 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 2 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 7 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 10 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 2 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

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Speaker 12 Welcome to the Bullwork Podcast. I'm Charlie Seyche.
It is January 10th, 2024. We have so much to talk about.
We need to talk about what's happening in the Mideast.

Speaker 12 We need to talk about what's happening in Ukraine, what's happening in Congress. We need to talk about what's going on with the Secretary of Defense.

Speaker 12 But first, we have to talk about a genuinely gob-smacking moment that took place in a DC courtroom yesterday.

Speaker 12 We're joined today by General Mark Hurtling, retired Lieutenant General and CNN military analyst, is a former commanding general of U.S. Army Europe and the 7th Army.

Speaker 12 General Hertling, welcome back to the podcast. Appreciate it very much.

Speaker 13 It is always going to be with you and happy new year to you.

Speaker 12 I hope it's a happy new year. So we have to start with the whole SEAL Team 6 presidency moment that took place yesterday in the D.C.
Court of Appeals.

Speaker 12 I'm guessing most people might have heard about this.

Speaker 12 A panel of federal appellate judges sounded very, very skeptical of Donald Trump's claims of absolute immunity from charges related to his efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

Speaker 12 And the basic gist of his arguments is he can't be be prosecuted for any official acts of the president without being first impeached and convicted under the Constitution.

Speaker 12 Now, what the Constitution actually says is: if you're impeached and convicted, you can still be charged criminally.

Speaker 12 It makes it very, very clear that you are not above the law, you are not immune from prosecution.

Speaker 12 Donald Trump's lawyers are actually asking the judges to turn that upside down and essentially say that if you are not convicted, you cannot be charged criminally.

Speaker 12 So the judges in the case began to drill down into what is it you're actually saying? And that's when we had the SEAL Team Six moment.

Speaker 12 This is Judge Florence Pan asking Trump's lawyer whether a president who ordered SEAL Team Six to kill, to assassinate a political rival, could be criminally prosecuted.

Speaker 12 Let's play a little bit of this audio.

Speaker 14 Could a president order SEAL Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? That's an official act in order to SEAL Team Six?

Speaker 15 He would have to be and would speedily be, you know,

Speaker 15 impeached and convicted before the criminal prosecution.

Speaker 14 But if he weren't, there would be no criminal prosecution, no criminal liability for that.

Speaker 15 Chief Justice's opinion and murder against Madison and

Speaker 15 our constitution

Speaker 15 and the plain language of the impeachment judgment clause all clearly presuppose that what the founders were concerned about was not I asked you a yes nor yes or no question.

Speaker 14 Easy question. Could a president who ordered SEAL Team 6 to assassinate a political rival who was not impeached,

Speaker 14 he be subject to criminal prosecution?

Speaker 15 If he were impeached and convicted first.

Speaker 14 So your answer is

Speaker 15 my answer is qualified yes.

Speaker 15 There's a political process that would have to occur under the structure of our Constitution, which would require impeachment and conviction by the Senate in these exceptional cases.

Speaker 12 Okay, that is a bizarre moment. That's probably the moment where everybody in that courtroom realized you're going to lose this case because it is truly bizarre.

Speaker 12 But General Hurley, your reaction to all of this, that you actually have the former president arguing in court that he should be absolutely immune from any crime unless he is convicted by the Senate.

Speaker 13 It is so upside down, Charlie. When I first heard the tape last night on the news, I just couldn't believe we had taken another step on the Uber ride to craziness with Trump and his lawyers.

Speaker 13 It's just ludicrous that he would even think that for not only the reasons of immunity, but also the misread of, as you stated, and I'm not a constitutional scholar, but I do know that's Article I, Section III of the Constitution about impeachment.

Speaker 13 And the other thing, I took it a little step further. I'm thinking to myself from the standpoint of the military folks who would be asked to do something like that.

Speaker 13 You're first of all asking SEAL Team Team 6 to commit a crime.

Speaker 13 It's an illegal order, which if their commanders are good, and they are, they wouldn't allow SEAL Team 6 to do that, even with the presidential directive, because SEAL Team 6 doesn't have immunity and they don't have the impeachment clause.

Speaker 13 So if they kill a fellow citizen at the orders of someone else, they're a hit squad as opposed to a military organization. Number one.
So they would go to jail for murder.

Speaker 12 Unless the president said, I will pardon you for this.

Speaker 13 Well, still, they're being pardoned for a crime, and they're still going to hold that felony conviction as part of the pardon. The second thing was, it just showed to me how much Mr.

Speaker 13 Trump does not understand, and his lawyers don't understand what the military does, but they're also willing to put soldiers, or in this case, sailors, SEAL Team 6 members, in a wedge of being held accountable for a crime, even though they think think they can get off scot-free.

Speaker 13 It was ludicrous on so many counts. And I agree with you after reading some of the transcripts of the court hearing yesterday, it's apparent to me that this has taken a turn for the horrible for Mr.

Speaker 13 Trump.

Speaker 13 The other thing I'd mentioned, Charlie, these are the kind of things, you know, having been in combat in Iraq and seen some things in Afghanistan, These are some of the things that leaders do in the early days of those countries as they were seeking democracy, non-judicial punishment to their political opponents.

Speaker 13 It's taking us to a level that just is counter to everything we swear to uphold in the Constitution.

Speaker 12 Now, I know that we'll be accused of taking extreme hypotheticals, but I do think it's important to put this into context that Donald Trump seems to have embraced the Nixon doctrine that when the president does it, it is not illegal.

Speaker 12 He seems to believe that under Article II, that his power is absolute. And he said this over and over and over again.

Speaker 12 He has said, you know, at various points that he would pardon people if they committed things that were considered to be criminal. He said that to certain border agents.

Speaker 12 He's made it very clear that he thinks the military will do whatever he tells them to do and has shown a willingness to pardon people who have committed war crimes.

Speaker 12 So Donald Trump's view of the military makes this, I think, a relevant hypothetical because in his mind, the military is his and is loyal to him and will have to do what. Do you remember back?

Speaker 12 I think it was during the 2016 campaign, he said that he would order the murder of the family of terrorists.

Speaker 12 And when people pushed back and said, Well, that would be a war crime, he basically says, Well, you know, I'm the commander-in-chief. They would do it.
If I told them to do it, they would do it.

Speaker 12 I mean, in his mind, you know, this is a possibility. Now, is he going to order SEAL Team Six to murder Joe Biden? Probably not.

Speaker 12 But if you're arguing you have immunity, the judges have taken this to its logical conclusion, haven't they?

Speaker 13 They have. And he not only said he was going to do that during the campaign, he did it in a couple of key cases with war criminals.

Speaker 13 You remember the case of the Navy SEAL, the Army captain, both of them. One of them had already been declared guilty.
The other one hadn't even gone to trial yet.

Speaker 13 And he pardoned both of them, as well as saying things like he was not only going to kill terrorist families, but he was also going to steal the oil from Iraq.

Speaker 13 I mean, all of those things are war crimes.

Speaker 13 So, again, if a lawyer says this in court and does it very nonchalantly and tries to argue with the judge on this account, it tells me there's a criminal mindset behind that argument, that that is a possibility.

Speaker 13 It certainly was an extreme example that the judge can use, but it's certainly an indicator of what he would do.

Speaker 12 Well, and speaking of extreme examples, you know, while the lawyer, and this is a lawyer named John Sauer, who's apparently a pretty well-known lawyer, while he said that the president would speedily be impeached in such a case, an AP reporter on Twitter noted that the same president could also order the killing of dissenting members of Congress, making impeachment impossible.

Speaker 12 I mean, once you go down this rabbit hole, there's really no

Speaker 12 way around all of this. So let's talk about some other things.
I'm going to spend more time on this tomorrow when I talk with Ben Wittis from Lawfare.

Speaker 13 Lawfair.

Speaker 12 I wanted to get your take on the whole story of the Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin. I understand that you were a classmate of his at West Point.
You know him.

Speaker 12 Tell me about your reaction to the fact that he has been hospitalized. Yesterday, we learned that he was diagnosed with prostate cancer in December.

Speaker 12 Had a minimally invasive procedure in December, but this latest hospitalization was kept secret from the White House for days. The public was informed late last Friday.

Speaker 13 I was not only a classmate of Secretary Austin, but I served under him in Iraq. He was my commander when I commanded a division there.
We are friends.

Speaker 13 I know his personality, and his personality is one of being an extremely private person.

Speaker 13 He also has the military mentality of whenever tough things are happening, you just ruck up and drive on, you know, as an expression we use. He is an introvert.

Speaker 13 I think he wanted to get this procedure done during his leave period. He took two days of leave, and then unfortunately there were complications.

Speaker 13 All of that said, there are many things that are part of the background of this story. I've said from the beginning, there are no excuses.
You tell your boss when you're going into the hospital.

Speaker 13 You let people know, even though you don't have to tell them the details of your procedures of what your injury or your mala is. But, you know, you do say, hey, I'm going to see a doctor.

Speaker 13 I'd rather not talk about it, but I'll be out of the net for a couple of days. He didn't do that.

Speaker 13 And I think it's all part of his psyche of wanting to get through something without bothering other people. That's how Secretary Austin Lloyd is.
That's the kind of person he is.

Speaker 13 And by the way, I admire him greatly. I think he's done a masterful job as a Secretary of Defense.
And whereas this was a blunder, there's no doubt about it.

Speaker 13 The people calling for resignation or for him to be fired over this, I think that's a little bit over the top personally.

Speaker 12 Well, and of course, the Biden White House has to be tremendously frustrated, but they also know that replacing him would be fraught, particularly in this election year, and given what the Republican stance is.

Speaker 12 We've had Tommy Tubberville hold up promotions for most of the last year, the kind of games that they might play with confirmation of a Secretary of Defense, even though, you know, obviously this is at a dangerous time.

Speaker 12 The downside of this is that, and he didn't mean to, but he clearly, you know, provided ammunition to Biden critics who would accuse him of not being in control of his own administration.

Speaker 12 You know, how could you not know that perhaps your most critical member of your cabinet, Secretary of Defense, is off the grid? How could you not know this?

Speaker 12 And that's a tough spot to put your boss in.

Speaker 12 And my guess is that in the military thing, the one thing you don't want to do is you don't want to do something that puts your boss, somebody higher in the chain of command, in an embarrassing position like this.

Speaker 13 Yeah, you're always trying to support your boss. as best you can or tell him where he's going to strive.
And Secretary Austin didn't do that. And that's the unfortunate part of this.
this.

Speaker 13 You know, I can't personally figure out why he did this, other than that he thought he'd do it quickly and get in and out, and all things would be done, and no harm, no foul. But things went south.

Speaker 13 So he's now being held accountable. And unfortunately, it's causing a lot of arrows to be shot at the entire administration, as you mentioned.

Speaker 12 You actually made a very insightful point on CNN that had not occurred to me until I heard you say it. You know, that, okay, he's a private person.
He has got that military, you know, just buck up.

Speaker 12 And, you know, maybe he thought it was no, no, arm, no file, but you also pointed out that prostate cancer is a particularly difficult illness for a lot of guys to talk about.

Speaker 12 And so it probably was all those planets aligned for him.

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Speaker 16 In a special segment of On Purpose, I share a story about a book that changed my life early in my journey and how I was able to find the exact same edition on eBay years later.

Speaker 16 There are certain books that don't just give you information, they shift the way you see the world. I remember reading one when I was younger that completely changed me.

Speaker 16 Years later, I found myself thinking about that book again. I wanted the same edition back.
Not a reprint, not a different cover, that exact one.

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Speaker 16 Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.

Speaker 12 eBay, things people love.

Speaker 16 Listen to on purpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 7 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 3 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 9 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 2 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 7 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 10 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 2 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 12 Okay, so let's move on because the world is, I won't say the world is burning, but there is so much going on all around the world. I wanted to get your take on it.

Speaker 12 I want to get to Ukraine in a moment.

Speaker 12 Well, let's get to Ukraine right now because, you know, as I was preparing for this, I was thinking that one of the most dangerous things in 2024 has been the fact that Ukraine is kind of feels like it's on the brink, and there's a real danger that we're going to forget about it, that it is no longer at the top of the agenda.

Speaker 12 Congress continues to play games. The Republicans in Congress, Republicans in the House continue to play games.
And the Mideast and other things have shifted it. We have limited attention spans.

Speaker 12 So let's talk about what happened in Ukraine because

Speaker 12 while Republicans are stalling their negotiations over support for Ukraine, I mean, Russia sees an opening. Two things.
Number one, they see Ukraine running low or out of equipment and ammunition.

Speaker 12 And they also see the clock running, knowing what might happen in the November election. So give me your assessment right now of the

Speaker 12 state of play in Ukraine.

Speaker 13 Well,

Speaker 13 first, Charlotte, what I talk about is the conditions of the battlefield.

Speaker 13 It is not a stalemate, as many people think. I think what you're seeing,

Speaker 13 and I'll use a theoretical term, a doctrinal term, of culmination. Both sides have culminated.

Speaker 13 Ukraine has culminated to a degree on the offense that they were trying to execute during the summer and the spring and into the fall.

Speaker 13 Russia has culminated on the defense, and that's a different type of culmination because when you don't think you can gain any strength from the defense, you go on the offense.

Speaker 13 The problem with that and Russia is they are horrible at offensive operations. They have proven that in multiple occasions.
So they are throwing newly mobilized forces, new equipment into the fray.

Speaker 13 But on the daily reports that I get from friends and colleagues, both in Ukraine and from the military, Ukraine Ukraine is continuing to hold their own on the front line.

Speaker 13 They are not losing ground and in fact they are decimating Russian forces, newly mobilized troops that are coming after them. Now Ukraine is of course losing people too.
That's the bad thing.

Speaker 13 And the other thing, as you mentioned, is they are beginning to see and experience a supply disruption.

Speaker 13 from the United States over this couple of weeks moratorium that Congress delayed weapons shipment and monetary shipment to them.

Speaker 13 Having said that, when you're talking about two forces that are tactically at culminating points and are trying to switch either from the offense to the defense or the defense to the offense, it's going to appear like there's a stalemate.

Speaker 13 It is not. Russia is reverting back to their strategy and their operations of hitting infrastructure targets.
They have received a whole lot of equipment.

Speaker 13 from their new allies of North Korea and Iran.

Speaker 13 It was reported yesterday that Iran is now providing Shaheed-107 drones, which is a distinction that says these drones can go up to 1,500 kilometers to strike targets.

Speaker 13 And they're aiming more toward not just infrastructure targets in Ukraine, but the potential for Ukraine to build military capacity. What do I mean by that?

Speaker 13 Well, there have been many NATO nations, a few in particular, who have said, we are going to move our capabilities into Ukraine and help you develop your own resources.

Speaker 13 Those are becoming part of the target package that Russia is attacking.

Speaker 13 So a combination of both heating, water facilities, and now infrastructure, military infrastructure is going to cause significant challenges for Ukraine to overcome.

Speaker 13 Russia, on the other hand, has been struck with a lot of Ukraine rockets too.

Speaker 13 Some of the drones and rocket systems that various countries have given them, to include us, have hit very good targeting packages.

Speaker 13 And what I say by that is Ukraine has learned a significant amount in this two years of war of how to do precise targeting of key military targets.

Speaker 13 So they are doing a pretty good job in hitting behind the lines in places like it's been reported Belgorod and in other areas closer to Moscow, which is scaring the heck out of the Russian people.

Speaker 13 At the same time, I think it's been recorded in a lot of business journals and economic forums, Russia is in bad shape from feeding their people to providing heat and water and the kinds of things that are necessary for citizens.

Speaker 13 But unfortunately, Russian citizens are used to that. So it's just more problems for them.

Speaker 13 Now taking it from the battlefield to the more strategic approach, you know, yesterday the United States was able to produce 47 supporting nations in the UN that would condemn North Korean for the arms shipment to Russia.

Speaker 13 That's a big deal. A few weeks ago, and it went under the radar, there was a lot of work by the administration on supporting long-term viability of Ukraine's industrial base.

Speaker 13 There were 100 Ukrainians, about NATO armament directors, and over a thousand industrial reps that met together and started working across spaces on things like electronic warfare to affect Russian missiles, logistics support, which is something that Ukraine is in dire need of, training of maintainers and of senior level officials in the Ukrainian military, which they have kind of faltered, truthfully, contract maintenance team.

Speaker 13 So all of those things are happening. When you're looking to the future, you know, the 75th NATO summit is going to be in DC this summer.
And we're already starting to see indicators of key countries.

Speaker 13 I saw a report on Chancellor Schultz in Germany this morning talking about how he wanted to persuade his fellow Europeans to provide more to Ukraine for as long as it took.

Speaker 13 Wow, what a change for Germany from their stand on the war.

Speaker 13 So all of these things are critically important, but I think the most important thing that's received the most attention is Congress dillying with support for both Ukraine and Israel in times when democratic institutions are being threatened, the sovereignty of people are being threatened, and yet our opponents, in this case, Russia, is having support generated from nations like Iran, North Korea, and China.

Speaker 12 You have said that Ukraine is going to have to back off the offensive, that they will have to adjust their ways and means on the battlefield.

Speaker 12 So without saying that the offensive has not succeeded, you are saying that they're going to have to back off, that they're going to have to shift to a different way.

Speaker 12 Describe what that will look like.

Speaker 13 Yeah, temporarily. I mean, this is something that every commander faces.
When do I go on the offense? When do I go on the defense? How do I husband resources to attack on another day later on?

Speaker 13 You know, tempo, as I was once told by a great mentor of mine, General Fred Franks, you know, tempo isn't always fast and it always isn't going after someone.

Speaker 13 You have to know when to go slow and when to go fast and when to you know husband your resources to attack another day. And I think that's what Ukraine is going to do.

Speaker 13 They are adamant that they are not going to allow Russia to take take over their land. I wish we were as adamant on that in our Congress today.

Speaker 12 As you point out, Russia's getting arms from Iran. They're also getting missiles from Korea.
And yet, we have a Congress of the United States that cannot get out of its own way.

Speaker 12 The Republican Party becomes increasingly isolationist, particularly as Trump reasserts his control.

Speaker 12 We kind of know where, I mean, we know where Donald Trump stands, how he is going to approach this particular issue.

Speaker 12 Your reaction, watching this all play out to see Republicans in Congress essentially willing to abandon Ukraine at this point?

Speaker 13 It's a hard thing for me to talk about, Charlie, because I've experienced it to a degree in combat myself.

Speaker 13 When politicians are debating issues, when there are individuals being killed on the battlefield while we're waiting for decisions, is a hard thing to take.

Speaker 13 And the only people that realize that are soldiers and their families.

Speaker 13 I mean, all I can say is we have a system where there's checks and balances and Congress approves the purse strings and they determine when we go to war and when we support other nations while an administration, a president and his or her administration are attempting to conduct foreign policy and there's a strategic tension there.

Speaker 13 That's our system. Sometimes it works very well.
Sometimes it's unfortunate.

Speaker 13 It's unfortunate when you have people who don't see the importance of the policy and the strategy that a nation is trying to exhibit.

Speaker 13 And I think that's the main thing that we're seeing now in our Congress, that we have a strategy to help a like-minded nation regain its sovereignty and territory.

Speaker 13 And yet we're playing around with power plays and people who are saying things either about the nation or the military or the institutions that just aren't true.

Speaker 13 I don't personally know as a soldier what you can do about that when you just have individuals who don't get it. That's the part that's infuriating.

Speaker 13 If we were to put Lauren Boebert or Matt Gates on the battlefield in Ukraine for about 20 minutes, they might get it. But right now, they're just playing with power.

Speaker 13 And I hate to use those two names, but it's true.

Speaker 16 Some moments in your life stay with you forever.

Speaker 16 In a special segment of On Purpose, I share a story about a book that changed my life early in my journey and how I was able to find the exact same edition on eBay years later.

Speaker 16 There are certain books that don't just give you information, they shift the way you see the world. I remember reading one when I was younger that completely changed me.

Speaker 16 Years later, I found myself thinking about that book again. I wanted the same edition back.
Not a reprint, not a different cover, that exact one. So I started searching.

Speaker 16 And that's when I found it on eBay. That's what I love about eBay.
It's not just a marketplace, it's a place where stories live. Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.

Speaker 12 eBay, things people love.

Speaker 16 Listen to on purpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 4 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 7 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 3 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 9 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 2 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 7 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 10 One thing's for sure: the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 2 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 12 All right, let's switch gears and talk about what's going on in the Middle East. You have been discussing this on CNN.
Obviously, the region is a Tinderbox.

Speaker 12 How worried are you about an escalation of that conflict that started back in October? We have Israel in Gaza.

Speaker 12 We'll talk about how they're handling that, but the danger of a wider war, particularly with the attacks on Hezbollah in Lebanon. How worried are you?

Speaker 13 I'm extremely worried about it. It could happen at any time.

Speaker 13 And I think Hezbollah is waiting for the right time to go full force.

Speaker 13 While I think most of the media is focused on Israeli actions in Gaza and the results on innocent Palestinians, citizens who are unfortunately put up as shields in every operation.

Speaker 13 And I'm seeing some of the reports from the Israeli army and the kinds kinds of things they are facing in Gaza

Speaker 13 are exponentially more difficult than anything I ever faced in Iraq in multiple tours there, or any of our forces ever faced in Afghanistan.

Speaker 12 Specifically, what? Like, what kinds of things are you talking about here?

Speaker 13 Just the kinds of locations that Israeli forces are finding weapons manufacturing and tunnels that are underneath schools and mosques and UN headquarters and hospitals and in children's rooms and in kindergartens.

Speaker 13 I mean, those kinds of targeting requirements would drive a commander, and I've experienced this, crazy because you have to then weigh, do you hit that target or not? And what are the repercussions?

Speaker 13 Israel is being held accountable for all these things and people are asking them to soften their approach, but there are just a boatload.

Speaker 13 of arms facilities and caches throughout Gaza underneath key civilian facilities. So they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Speaker 13 If they don't go after these targets, they're going to continue to have a terrorist threat. And we see that every day, don't we?

Speaker 13 We see every time there's a lull or a pause, or even when there's not a lull or a pause, there are still dozens of rockets being fired by Hamas from Gaza into Israel.

Speaker 13 So it helps them speed up their operations.

Speaker 13 What you've mentioned, and I'll kind of address now, is what about the other threats? Lebanon alone, I'm seeing reports on a daily basis.

Speaker 13 It almost appears to me that the actions in southern Lebanon against Israeli forces and Israeli forces back are almost as kinetically intense as anything you're seeing in Gaza.

Speaker 13 Perhaps not the same kind of reporting. But then you had yesterday 21 drones and missiles and cruise missiles fired out of Yemen toward the Red Sea that were intercepted by U.S.
ships.

Speaker 13 I mean, all of these missiles or rockets or drones or cruises could cause extensive death and casualties, much like we're seeing in Ukraine. So it's a constant warfare.

Speaker 13 Israel is being blamed for everything, and yet they are continuing to be attacked on three different sides.

Speaker 12 Yeah, three different sides. So we have Gaza, we have Hezbollah in Lebanon, and then we have this attempt to close the Red Sea by the rebels.
And let's talk about this.

Speaker 12 You know, this is the disruption of global shipping lanes in the Red Sea. And there have been calls for strikes in Yemen to address the Houthi attack.
What do you think that we ought to do?

Speaker 12 How aggressive should the Biden administration be in going after these? Now, by the way, the Houthi rebels are Iranian-backed.

Speaker 13 They are.

Speaker 12 Right? So is this Iran basically giving the green light to this? I mean, is Iran playing into this in an overt way?

Speaker 13 It's them playing in a covert way, and they are certainly playing in it.

Speaker 13 We have evidence of that, that they are backing the hoodies just like they are backing uh the pmf forces in iraq the the kind that had a cruise missile in an iranian cruise missile in babel in southern iraq near the gates of babylon just like they have in syria just like they have in northwestern iraq so yeah it's it's all iranian backing and i think your

Speaker 13 your innuendo there is do we go after iran There is a plausible deniability by Iran saying, hey, we can't control what these guys are doing.

Speaker 13 But then the next question is, do you hit targets inside of Yemen? Then there's more complexity because where are those targets?

Speaker 13 We don't have accurate targeting data other than from satellites and spy planes. I mean, things above ground.
They're in the middle of a civil war with Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 13 Are we then supporting Saudi Arabia? Do we have the right kind of targeting data? Do we draw ourselves in by striking multiple targets and suddenly people want to strike more?

Speaker 13 And does it then become warfare? Anytime you attack inside of another country, you've basically declared war.

Speaker 13 There is the preponderance of how do we conduct a preemptive strike versus an offensive strike. There are two very different things that have different repercussions.

Speaker 12 Well, I mean, and this is escalating. I mean, just on Tuesday, they launched their biggest assault on merchant vessels so far.

Speaker 12 And there, you know, rocket fire, there's drones, warships are deployed, but no vessels reported damage out there so talk to me a little bit about what we did in in december when we announced operation prosperity guardian this u.s-led coalition to end the houthi blockade in the the red sea we we have about there are about 20 members in this coalition i mean once again this is kind of below the radar screen that once again we have pulled together a coalition of the willing to do this because this is this has global implications if we do not shut this down yeah it does.

Speaker 13 It certainly does. And I think, again, we'll go back to Secretary Austin.

Speaker 13 He was the one that started putting that coalition together as only he could as the Secretary of Defense and as a former soldier. He understands the implications of that.

Speaker 13 And this isn't the first time that kind of coalition has been in the Red Sea and the Arabian Gulf and the Gulf of Aden.

Speaker 13 I remember during my time as a commander in Europe in 2012, that there was an anti-piracy coalition going on that was way below the entire noise level of anybody in the United States.

Speaker 13 Nobody knew it was happening, even though there was a film about Captain Phillips and his ships being captured. Piracy was a big deal back in the 2011-12 standpoint.

Speaker 13 What you basically have is a kinetic piracy by the Houthi rebels trying to interfere with shipping, not taking over the ships, but trying to destroy them and threatening shipping companies from sending vessels through this waterway, which is going to affect the global economy.

Speaker 12 And complicating all of this,

Speaker 12 there are the military problems and the military threats. There's also the political problem of having our closest ally in the region headed by somebody who is as,

Speaker 12 shall we say, politically and ethically challenged as Benjamin Netanyahu. Joe Biden made the decision to embrace Netanyahu in the early days

Speaker 12 after the Hamas attack after October 7th. He actually flew there, basically pledged complete solidarity.

Speaker 12 It's one thing to have complete solidarity with Israel and the Israeli people, but the government of Benjamin Netanyahu is deeply unpopular.

Speaker 12 His right-wing politics have alienated much of the nation, including much of the military. And it's certainly not clear whether or not he even has the support of the Israeli population.

Speaker 12 And he's proven himself to be a rather erratic ally.

Speaker 12 That seems to be a real difficult problem for Joe Biden. You want to support Israel, but Israel's government is in many ways inherently untrustworthy.
How do you navigate something like that?

Speaker 13 Well, the first thing I'd say is Israel's government has been having these problems for many years, and we have noticed it. And you know that.
That's why you're laughing.

Speaker 13 And do you take the time when Israel is threatened by enemies on three different fronts to really go hard after Netanyahu?

Speaker 13 Or is there, as you said, the very complexities of how do you maneuver through a government that you know is tainted and is just not doing right for all of the Israeli people, but is supported by the right to the extreme?

Speaker 13 Sound familiar, doesn't it? And how do you support an ally that's under threat while at the same time telling their

Speaker 13 lead official, hey, you've got to do things a little bit differently.

Speaker 13 I think any nation in the world would rebel, or any national leader would rebel if someone from the outside came in and said, you need to clean up your act, buddy.

Speaker 13 The only difference is that we are providing quite a bit of arms to Israel right now in their time of need.

Speaker 13 So there is a manner of influence, but you know, the only thing I can say is, you know, I'm just a simple soldier.

Speaker 13 This is way beyond my capability to understand the complexities of these kind of issues that go before the President of the United States

Speaker 13 who only deals with the toughest of issues. He doesn't deal with the simple problems.
And that's what he's dealing with in Netanyahu right now.

Speaker 12 Well, speaking of complexity, I'm embarrassed to tell you that, you know, as we, right before we began recording this podcast, we were running through the things we want to talk about.

Speaker 12 And you mentioned, and we should talk about what's going on in Ecuador. And frankly, General,

Speaker 12 this is where I sort of paused and went, okay,

Speaker 12 I'm not sure I know what's going on in Ecuador. And what we should be paying attention to it.
So bringing me up to speed, please.

Speaker 13 Well,

Speaker 13 there is significant civil unrest. There is certainly a little bit of authoritarian rule right now in terms of putting down that civilian unrest and demonstrations.

Speaker 13 So it is another issue of what might be contributing to what is happening on our southern border. All of these things are interconnected.
There are no simple problems.

Speaker 13 And when you're talking about the kinds of things that are going on in Ecuador, Venezuela, you can name three or four other countries in South and Latin America, and the effects that they have on the migrant flow.

Speaker 13 It's certainly not something we can not look at and say, what are our capabilities to contribute to a better life for people?

Speaker 13 Because if they don't get a better life in their own country, they're going to want to try and get a better life in our

Speaker 13 I think we're seeing such significant increases in immigrants coming to our southern border.

Speaker 12 Do we have any capability of making things better in Ecuador? I mean, hasn't this been a long trail of futility trying to deal with many of these problems?

Speaker 12 I mean, there are some things that are outside America's control. Is this one of them?

Speaker 13 Yeah, and Tony, what I'd say is one of the examples I use whenever anyone says it's outside our control and we can't do anything about it, is I go back to the Columbia of the 1980s and 1990s when they had such massive drug problems and killing of judges and political officials.

Speaker 13 And there was significant effort by the United States to help them work through that.

Speaker 13 And now Colombia, even though they're not completely clean, they have turned into a much more democratic and safe nation than they were during those periods of the Pablo Escobars. It just takes work.

Speaker 12 This is a great point because that seemed hopeless back then. I mean, it seemed like it was completely hopeless, that there was nothing.

Speaker 12 I mean, I remember back then, you know, when you, anytime you had, you know, an honest judge or an honest prosecutor, the attorney general, they were, they were being murdered, how do you push back against them?

Speaker 12 And you had a sense that this was in a complete death spiral. And as you point out, you know, you know, for the people who counsel despair, you can make some progress.

Speaker 12 You don't fix everything, but you can make progress.

Speaker 13 You can, as a smart guy once told me, you can't wring your hands and roll up your sleeves at the same time. So you got to do one or the other.

Speaker 13 And I think around the world, we've got a lot of rolling up our sleeves to do.

Speaker 13 And that's why, going back to the very first question you asked me about what happened in court yesterday, you got to have people who sort of understand the world and how it works and not be so intent on making their own power greater at the expense of others.

Speaker 12 Well, let's loop back to that because there's one other question that's been hanging out that you've talked about and has been written about extensively.

Speaker 12 How serious is the problem of political extremism in the military? And I'm not talking about at the highest ranks, but the number of people in the military.

Speaker 12 We've seen the radicalization of so many segments of our society.

Speaker 12 And I have to be honest with you, I think that Donald Trump is counting upon the radicalization of elements in the military at some point. And I don't think that's paranoid.

Speaker 12 I think he's made it very clear. You know, he said the people with the guns are on our side.
He's actually said this explicitly. So give me your take on all of this.

Speaker 12 How concerned are you about extremism in the military? And how serious a problem is this? How worried should we be? How worried are you?

Speaker 13 You know, if you would have asked me that six months ago, I would have said very worried. I just recently read the report done by the Defense Department on extremism in the military.

Speaker 13 And what that report says, surprisingly, is yes, there is extremism in the veteran population, which is significantly worse than it is in the active population.

Speaker 13 The details of that report were fascinating. There is, admittedly, some extremist in the military.
It's understandable because the military recruits, the professional U.S.

Speaker 13 military recruits from the population. So you're going to have different segments of the population represented.

Speaker 13 And in many cases, you're going to have the more quote patriotic young people coming in. And sometimes they bring a little bit of baggage.

Speaker 13 But what I'll tell you, Charlie, I mean, this is almost never mentioned when people introduce me, but right before I took command of the U.S. Army in Europe, I was a commander of all of the U.S.

Speaker 13 Army basic training units, 27 different bases throughout the country.

Speaker 13 One of the things my boss asked me to do when I took command of that organization was recheck how we were training military values, our seven Army values of loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage.

Speaker 12 None of those things sound like wokeness.

Speaker 13 Yeah, don't get me started on that.

Speaker 13 But it has to do with how do we train a young person who's grown up in a society that may be tainted depending on where they come from into bringing about camaraderie, teamwork, and a dedication to something bigger than themselves.

Speaker 13 And when we do that, we have to train them in certain values that guide their way, that help them make decisions.

Speaker 13 It was always a part of basic training, but during our war years of 2002 to 2012 or so, it started to dissipate. So my boss wanted me to reinstitute that as well as a couple other things.

Speaker 13 What we found was that was the most effective training we had, that it really set a guiding light for our young people in the military. Now I don't know what the status of that is right now.

Speaker 13 We have a son who's an active duty military member and he says it's strong. But what I'll tell you is we do focus on inserting values.
the military values, the national values.

Speaker 13 And I don't see that truthfully, and I'll say this openly, I don't see the insertion of values in any other segments of society.

Speaker 13 We have a whole lot of companies that say, here are our companies' values, but if you ask employees of those companies, they probably can't tell you what they are.

Speaker 13 So I think it's a return to behaviors and norms that contribute to the greater good.

Speaker 13 And I think we as a nation, and this is a personal soapbox now online, we've kind of gone away from understanding key professional and personal values that contribute to our nation.

Speaker 12 Not to mention civics education.

Speaker 13 Yeah, well, and we have congressmen and senators who say, hey, I stand for America's values. Really? What are they? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 13 And they are found in things like the speeches of Lincoln and Martin Luther King and Kennedy's inaugural and Roosevelt's Four Freedoms and the Declaration and the Constitution.

Speaker 13 But ask a congressman sometimes, what are American values?

Speaker 13 And if they don't say respect and integrity and some of the things that really emanate from some of those speeches and documents, because you know what?

Speaker 12 You would not normally think that a question like that would be a gotcha question.

Speaker 12 But now you've got me really fascinated, you know, on Meet the Press or on CNN or, you know, to get a Republican congressman, you know, tell me about what you think are American values.

Speaker 12 I would really be fascinated to hear the word salary that comes out of some of those folks. And then, of course, the follow-up questions and how do you reconcile those values with X, Y, and Z?

Speaker 12 And those are sort of fundamental questions, but I think you're right. I think they would be extremely difficult for many of the politicians to do.

Speaker 13 What some of them would probably do was immediately apply it to wokeness, as you said before.

Speaker 12 Yeah.

Speaker 13 We don't need that. We just need guns.

Speaker 12 Or go back to some sort of boilerplate type thing, you know, but you are absolutely right.

Speaker 12 General Mark Hurtling, retired Lieutenant General Mark Hurtling, is a CNN military analyst, former commanding general of U.S. Army, Europe, and the 7th Army.

Speaker 12 Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast today, General.

Speaker 13 It's a pleasure, Charlie, and I apologize for pontificating a little bit about values, but I think it's an important subject.

Speaker 12 No, I think that was the best part of the whole discussion, honestly. It leaves me with a hopeful note, which we don't always do.
Thank you all for listening to today's Bull Work Podcast.

Speaker 12 I'm Charlie Seitz. We will be back tomorrow, and we'll do this all over again.

Speaker 12 The Bullwork Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper and engineered and edited by Jason Brown.

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