Will Saletan: Punish the Vermin

Speaker 3 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovny, and Carise Van Houten.

Speaker 6 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny, infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 8 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 10 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 2 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 7 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 6 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 1 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

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Speaker 12 Welcome to the Bullwork podcast. Happy Monday.
I'm Charlie Sykes. First thing we have to do is we have to check in with my good friend Will Salatan.
How are you taking the Tim Scott news? You okay?

Speaker 12 Are you okay with this?

Speaker 13 It's been rough. Been rough.

Speaker 12 We're going to miss him. Kind of a shock.

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 12 Yo, who would have imagined that Tim Scott's sunny optimistic message wouldn't play, wouldn't get a lot of traction in the current Republican primary, in the age of Trump.

Speaker 15 Huh?

Speaker 12 I don't know. Well, at least he got a new girlfriend out of it.
Right. Do you have any comment on all of this? I mean, it's good for Nikki Haley, but...

Speaker 16 What I have, Charlie, is a confession.

Speaker 19 So a couple of months ago, three months ago, I was the idiot who, in the Bulwark Slack, suggested that Tim Scott was going to be the Republican nominee for president.

Speaker 22 And of course, the reason why I said...

Speaker 24 The reason why I said this was, Charlie, among all of the Bulwark people, I have the least experience in the Republican Party.

Speaker 27 So I naively thought that Tim Scott, because he was really good at doing town halls and talking with people and sounding like a real guy,

Speaker 29 that that was the guy they were going to choose.

Speaker 20 So I had a very warped understanding.

Speaker 12 It's a brutal start to the week.

Speaker 12 So we're going to have to have that caveat every time you express an opinion about Republican politics.

Speaker 12 We'll say, this is Will Salatan, who actually believed that Tim Scott was going to be the Republican nominee.

Speaker 14 Okay. Yes.
Yes.

Speaker 12 I admire your candor that you brought that up. Okay, so that's not really why I wanted to begin today with the podcast, because there's so much going on here.

Speaker 12 First thing is, happy Monday, fellow Vermin.

Speaker 12 Vermin. Remember back in 2020, it was scum, human scum.
Donald Trump has said this stuff before.

Speaker 12 And I know we'll be accused of the Trump derangement syndrome, but I think it's interesting that Trump once again gives a speech where he says, hey, the real enemies are right next to you.

Speaker 12 The real enemies are your fellow Americans and we're coming for them. They are vermin.

Speaker 12 So I don't think you need to really torture the he's sounding like Adolf Hitler type thing to say this is rather extraordinary rhetoric for a man that wants to be the leader of the free world to on Veterans Day say that we are going to hunt out and root out you leftist vermin.

Speaker 14 Right.

Speaker 12 Will talk to me about because obviously he had you in mind and me in mind when he's talking about the vermin. So let's have a vermin chat here.

Speaker 32 Okay, there's a lot to say about this Veterans Day message.

Speaker 16 So I'm just going to start with one thing, which is Veterans Day is supposed to be about patriotism, people who served the United States of America, you know, the country that you and I belong to, of which we're citizens.

Speaker 22 And Trump's whole message here, his whole message is that the enemy is not Russia, it's not China, it's not Putin, it's not Xi, it's not North Korea, it's not Iran, it's Americans.

Speaker 32 It's your fellow citizens.

Speaker 16 Turn against them.

Speaker 13 They are the threat.

Speaker 36 A horrifying message, particularly on this day.

Speaker 12 Well, it is. And yet, in one way, he's right when he says the greatest threat to American democracy is coming from within.
But it's like look in the mirror, man.

Speaker 12 Okay, just to reiterate your point here, here's President Biden's Veterans Day. statement.
Today we honor the story of our veterans, the story of our nation at its best.

Speaker 12 On Veterans Day, let us commit to fulfilling our one sacred obligation as a nation, to prepare those we send into harm's way and care for them and their families when they come home.

Speaker 14 Nice.

Speaker 12 Here's Donald Trump's statement.

Speaker 14 Okay.

Speaker 12 In honor of our great veterans on Veterans Day, we pledge to you that we will root out the communist, Marxist, fascists, and radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country, lie, steal, and cheat on elections, and will do anything possible, whether legally or illegally, this is all one run-on sentence, to destroy america and the american dream the threat from outside forces is far less sinister dangerous and grave than the threat from within despite the hatred and anger of the radical left lunatics who want to destroy our country we will make america great again apparently by i don't know what uh weaponizing the federal government and

Speaker 12 so let's just play a couple of cuts from the president because i i want to make a point that i made on morning joe this morning about the verbal gas donald trump has a fetish for proto-fascist strongmen like Viktor Orban from Hungary.

Speaker 12 Increasingly, he's bringing up Orban's name. Listen to this context, though.

Speaker 38 You know, we were respected when I was president. We were respected by China.
You know, one story, a quick story. You don't mind if I go off teleprompter like a lot, do you?

Speaker 38 So much more exciting.

Speaker 38 So much more.

Speaker 40 But the head of Hungary,

Speaker 38 a very tough, strong guy, Victor Orban, did anybody ever hear of him? Probably

Speaker 38 considered very powerful, very powerful within his country and outside of his country. Not exactly loved by some of the European nations because he does his thing.

Speaker 38 He didn't allow millions of people to invade his country. He allowed nobody to invade.
The zero, the zero. He had nobody.

Speaker 38 So he doesn't have crime and he doesn't have the problems that they're having in other countries where millions of people are allowed to go in.

Speaker 38 But they were interviewing him two weeks ago and they said, what would you advise President Obama? The whole world seems to be exploding and imploding.

Speaker 38 And he said, it's very simple,

Speaker 38 he should immediately resign and they should replace him with President Trump who kept the world safe. And I'm not just talking the United States.

Speaker 30 Okay, so

Speaker 12 this, by the way, does seem to be a sort of a reflex now lately with Trump that he keeps forgetting that Biden is the president.

Speaker 12 I think this is like the seventh time in the last several weeks, somebody's Somebody's been counting up that he refers to President Obama, that he thinks that Obama is still in office.

Speaker 12 He thinks that he beat President Obama. So your thoughts.

Speaker 44 So the Obama part is special because the Obama part, of course, is Trump doing what he accuses Biden of doing.

Speaker 45 Now, there is a difference between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, and that is that when Joe Biden screws up, he catches himself.

Speaker 32 You know, he'll go back and try to get the sentence right.

Speaker 48 Donald Trump doesn't want to show anyone that he just screwed up.

Speaker 32 So he just rolls right on as though Obama's the president, right?

Speaker 19 We're going to, obviously, this is sort of a selective application of the claims of aging and senility, which is there's like three years apart between these two guys, right?

Speaker 13 Between Biden and Trump.

Speaker 15 Yeah.

Speaker 13 So yeah, there's that part.

Speaker 27 But there's also this love of dictators that you hear in the speech.

Speaker 41 So there's Orban. That's real.

Speaker 18 Right. That's sincere.

Speaker 19 He's praising Orban for his immigration policy, but he's praised Orban for a lot of other things. Orban is an authoritarian operating in Hungary.

Speaker 12 Yeah, but he does this on a regular basis, you know, that he really admires the fact that Chinese, the Chinese leaders are strong, like Mao and Ji, and they and they have the death penalty, and therefore they have no problems.

Speaker 12 This, by the way, is something he brings up all the time. How much he wants America to be more like red China in terms of killing criminals.

Speaker 14 Okay.

Speaker 14 Right. That's real.

Speaker 16 Right. And you heard him use the phrase very powerful, describing.

Speaker 20 But it's true.

Speaker 52 He also in this speech, so he praised Xi, he also praised Kim Jong-un, said he was, you know, very smart.

Speaker 16 And what he always praises is that these guys are in charge and they maintain order.

Speaker 20 Now, what they don't have, of course, is civil liberties. And that's what he praises President Xi's drug policy, which is one day trial, immediate execution, right?

Speaker 32 We're going to get rid of that civil liberties stuff.

Speaker 46 Meanwhile, of course, in that Veterans Day message, Charlie, what was that line?

Speaker 31 We will root out the communists, Marxists, fascists, and radical left thugs.

Speaker 29 Who is Donald Trump praising in this speech?

Speaker 18 Communists, Marxists, and fascists.

Speaker 54 That's who he's praising, but not Americans, foreign Marxists, communists, and fascists.

Speaker 12 That would be ironic if irony wasn't dead when you think about it.

Speaker 15 Right?

Speaker 19 And of course, you and I know this is his favorite line, communists, Marxists, and fascists.

Speaker 32 But he's talking about himself.

Speaker 29 He's talking about the dictators that he admires.

Speaker 12 Projection is a thing. See, I think that, you know, it is very, very tempting to go down the rabbit hole of all of his gaffes and his stumbles and his blunders and all of that.

Speaker 12 And, you know, and I'm not criticizing people who are holding his, you know, clear decomposition up against Joe Biden's.

Speaker 12 But I also think it's like this is one of those moments where we need to separate the white noise from the substance because when you sweep out the actual gaffes, he is telling us who he is and what he intends to do.

Speaker 12 And the admiration for Victor Arbon is sincere. The admiration for the lack of civil liberties in China is very, very real.

Speaker 12 So, you know, he will try to make a joke out of the near-fatal hammer attack on Nancy Pelosi's husband. I mean, how sick is that?

Speaker 12 But is that a gap or is that just another indication that he's excited by violence? And the violence and the brutality, and we keep talking about this, is very much, you know, on brand here.

Speaker 12 Again, the reason I wrote my newsletter this morning saying it's not the gaps, it's the plans. Almost on a daily basis, We hear, or he tells us, exactly what he intends to do as president.

Speaker 12 And so last week we got that big Washington Post deep dive, how he's going to weaponize the Department of Justice.

Speaker 12 He's going to use the Department of Justice to go after his critics, his opponents, staffers who criticized him. Okay.
And then he confirms that.

Speaker 12 Then this weekend, we get the New York Times story that says his immigration plan includes mass arrests, huge deportations, and

Speaker 14 camps.

Speaker 34 Okay, camps.

Speaker 12 He plans to scour the country for immigrants living here without legal permission and deport them by the millions.

Speaker 12 Okay, following the Eisenhower model, we will carry out the largest domestic deportation operation in American history.

Speaker 12 To help speed up the mass deportations, Trump is preparing an enormous expansion of a form of removal that does not require due process hearings because due processes are so cucks.

Speaker 12 Trump wants to build huge camps to detain people while their cases are processed and they await deportation flights.

Speaker 12 And Trump, in order to pay for this, you know, he doesn't need no stinking congressional authorization.

Speaker 12 He will redirect money from the military budget, as he did in his first term, to spend more on a border wall than Congress had authorized. And the point is, he fully intends to do this.

Speaker 12 And his team is working overtime. They're making no secret of this plan 2025, the Heritage Foundation is cooking up to vet

Speaker 12 only the craziest, most, you know, avid, rabid loyalists to be in the government.

Speaker 12 And it's like, okay, we can make fun of the clown, but I'm sorry to repeat myself, a clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.

Speaker 12 And we could focus on the clown car, but we ought to focus on the fact that he's got a, he's got a fucking neutron bomb in the trunk. So.

Speaker 14 Right.

Speaker 20 And part of what he bragged about, this immigration plan, there are actually elements of the Trump immigration plan that I agree with, but the ones I don't agree with are nuts.

Speaker 24 They're just nuts.

Speaker 12 The concentration camps?

Speaker 12 No.

Speaker 53 Yeah. No, he doesn't say actually concentration.

Speaker 32 No, but we're trying to end run due process, right?

Speaker 49 That's one thing.

Speaker 37 We're also trying to end run the Constitution because this funding mechanism, the whole idea, remember, is he doesn't want to have to go through anybody else, like the people's representatives.

Speaker 31 Right.

Speaker 14 Right.

Speaker 15 I alone. I alone.

Speaker 23 I alone will fix it.

Speaker 19 So it's an authoritarian model.

Speaker 49 Now, the Constitution explicitly says, as you and I have discussed, that funds have to to be appropriated by Congress.

Speaker 33 The president can't appropriate funds.

Speaker 13 He doesn't care.

Speaker 19 We're going to go right around that.

Speaker 16 We're going to take money from something else that Congress appropriated from the military budget.

Speaker 49 We're going to use it for this immigration plan.

Speaker 31 Now, any other president, Charlie, would go through Congress, would say, Here's my plan.

Speaker 44 I'm going to get Congress to pass it.

Speaker 19 And this is what we're going to do.

Speaker 12 You would hope so.

Speaker 23 So he's going to circumvent that.

Speaker 32 He's going to circumvent due process.

Speaker 33 And now, how many million people do we think are in this country without illegally or without authorization?

Speaker 12 10, 11?

Speaker 23 Maybe 10, 11.

Speaker 36 I've heard estimates of 15 million.

Speaker 35 The point is.

Speaker 12 A lot of boxcars filled up.

Speaker 55 Sorry. Okay.
No boxcar chokes today, but

Speaker 45 imagine, imagine how many, I don't want to say jackbooted thugs, but imagine how many law enforcement or military or National Guard he would have to assign to do this and where they would have to go.

Speaker 13 Imagine the invasiveness and the prevalence of this force that he would be sending all over the country.

Speaker 19 I mean, from the standpoint of a country that believes in freedom, this is pretty crazy.

Speaker 27 It's pretty crazy.

Speaker 12 Well, okay, but there's a constituency for this, and there are millions of Americans that this is going to resonate with.

Speaker 12 And I say this because I remember having this discussion about mass deportations back in 2016, where I was making pretty much the exact same point you just made about what it would take to deport more than 10 million people.

Speaker 12 And the reaction of, let's face it, his base was, yeah, we kind of like that. We kind of like the idea of the wall, even if we don't believe Mexico is going to pay for it.

Speaker 12 We like the idea of at least saying that we're going to throw out all the illegal immigrants. It gives us that dopamine hit.
And so he has really cultivated this. We need to be strong.

Speaker 12 We need to be tough. We don't need to be bound by due process or the law.
We need to be courageous, by which he means ignoring the constitutional provisions.

Speaker 12 And we need to actually fear the people who are living next door to us, because it's one thing to say, you know, you're taking away the rights of law-abiding Americans.

Speaker 12 It's quite another thing to say, you elect me, and I'm going to clear the vermin out of the house. I am going to exterminate the vermin.

Speaker 12 And this is the way he's rhetorically doing it. These are the people who are rotting the country from the inside.

Speaker 12 And you need someone strong and tough who's going to do something about it and solve these problems, which is why he admires these authoritarian dictators around the world.

Speaker 12 I'm bringing this up because we've been doing this for so long that it's easy to go, same old, same old. Yeah, tell me something new.
Oh, the guy's such a joke.

Speaker 12 Well, there's a reason why he didn't give a speech praising democratic leaders in Sweden. why he doesn't talk about how wonderful the

Speaker 12 democracy of Great Britain is, which had, by the way, a very, very interesting cabinet shuffle today. He doesn't talk about the French system.

Speaker 12 He doesn't talk about Greece being the cradle of democracy. No, it's always North Korea, Hungary, and all of these other countries where, in fact, those civil liberties are eroded.

Speaker 12 So I guess this is one of those moments where it's like, guys, there's no secret or subtlety here about what he is saying.

Speaker 12 And do you noted the number of Republicans who came out today, Will, and said, okay, I'm sorry. I want a Republican president, but this shit about Berman.
No, no. Did you notice that?

Speaker 14 Do we have some sound?

Speaker 12 We have sound of it.

Speaker 40 No, none.

Speaker 15 There's actually none.

Speaker 37 Nobody.

Speaker 33 Okay, so I can see some folks responding to this thinking, well, Trump, of course, doesn't like the Europeans.

Speaker 13 They're a bunch of liberals.

Speaker 22 But remember, this isn't just about left and right.

Speaker 43 This is about freedom, right?

Speaker 31 None of what Trump is praising here is freedom.

Speaker 19 He's trying to erode freedom.

Speaker 29 He wants a giant police force to go in and do this immigration crackdown.

Speaker 54 He wants, you know, in the name of controlling crime, to suspend civil liberties.

Speaker 46 So Trump isn't about freedom.

Speaker 14 Trump is about order, right?

Speaker 13 And what I'm concerned about, Charlie, is one of the things that we may find out in the process of this Republican presidential primary and possibly the 2024 election is how many of the Republicans, how many of the conservatives who claim to believe in freedom really do?

Speaker 12 I think we've already found that out.

Speaker 15 Well,

Speaker 12 I believe the answers are in.

Speaker 55 But I mean, to be fair, these are people who say, I don't want the government taking my guns.

Speaker 23 We have a Second Amendment. These people don't even like speed cameras, right?

Speaker 57 We don't want a police state.

Speaker 40 But what if they do?

Speaker 17 What if Trump's bet is that they do?

Speaker 49 And in fact, they nominate this guy and they elect this guy, essentially saying, we don't really care about all that stuff in the Constitution.

Speaker 57 We don't care about all the stuff Ronald Reagan said about freedom.

Speaker 29 All we want is order and punishing the vermin.

Speaker 12 You mean they might actually be hypocrites about this?

Speaker 43 Really?

Speaker 12 Hypocrisy?

Speaker 12 I, for one, am shocked to find this out. Well, you know, part of it is the freedom for us to be able to punish them is our freedom becomes, why do I want the gun?

Speaker 12 Well, I want to be free, but I also want to be able to shoot the vermin next door. Right.
Or to protect myself from the vermin.

Speaker 52 Right.

Speaker 19 Can I come back to the Pelosi thing for a minute? So he brings up the hammer attack, right?

Speaker 12 Let's play the audio of this because I don't want people to think that we're exaggerating.

Speaker 12 This is the former president of the United States joking about a hammer attack on an 80-plus-year-old man in his home. Easily could have been a murder.

Speaker 31 Let's just play that.

Speaker 38 We had no terror during my administration. The only terror we had was Nancy Pelosi, who's a crazed lunatic.

Speaker 38 She's a lunatic.

Speaker 38 She is a crazed lunatic. What the hell was going on with her husband? Let's not ask.
Let's not ask.

Speaker 38 I'll withdraw that statement.

Speaker 38 By the way, she's got a wall around her house. Obviously, in that case, it didn't work very well, did it? It didn't work.

Speaker 12 Hilarious. So is he for walls or against walls? I am unclear there.

Speaker 30 Okay, sorry.

Speaker 44 So among the hypocrisy that we're talking about here is crime, right?

Speaker 22 Trump's message is, okay, the hell with civil liberties.

Speaker 33 We need to crack down.

Speaker 29 We need law and order because we need to control crime.

Speaker 43 But only some crime, right?

Speaker 19 And this comes back to your point about us and them.

Speaker 43 Crime against them is okay.

Speaker 19 Crime against the Pelosi's.

Speaker 22 And in fact, that line where Trump says what was really going on there at the Pelosis, that's, of course, a not very subtle reference to the lie that Paul Pelosi and the attacker had some gay affair going on, right?

Speaker 16 This is just a complete fabrication of fantasy.

Speaker 22 But what he's essentially saying, what Trump is saying is that Paul Pelosi and Nancy Pelosi basically asked for it.

Speaker 16 The crime against them is okay.

Speaker 12 It's their fault, right?

Speaker 29 And that's a way of basically conveying that none of this is really about controlling crime, about protecting the general public.

Speaker 51 It's about the vermin. Pelosi and her husband are the vermin.

Speaker 20 So crime against them is okay and we can all laugh about it.

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Speaker 3 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovney, and Carice Van Houten.

Speaker 6 Jack Whitehall plays Adam, a charming manny infiltrates the wealthy Tanner family with a hidden motive to destroy them.

Speaker 8 This edge-of-your-seat revenge thriller unravels a deliciously dark mystery in a world full of wealth, secrets, and betrayal.

Speaker 10 Malice will constantly keep you on your toes.

Speaker 2 Why is Adam after the Tanner family?

Speaker 7 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 1 One thing's for sure.

Speaker 6 The past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

Speaker 1 Watch Malice, all episodes now streaming exclusively on Prime Video.

Speaker 12 One last sound bite before we move on because I want to play this really interesting exchange from our colleague Tim Miller and Carrie Lake, which if people haven't seen, and I'm guessing most people haven't, you know, he was working with the folks from the circus this weekend.

Speaker 12 It's pretty amazing. Before we do that, though, Jonathan Carl is out with a new book about the Trump years, and he has a lot of stories that reflect how crazy they almost were.

Speaker 12 Crazy they were, but the crazy things that almost happened. For those of you that wonder, how separated from reality can Donald Trump actually get? And there's an interesting debate.

Speaker 12 Does he believe this? Does he not believe this? Does he know he lost? The story of Mo Brooks is awfully interesting, isn't it? Remember Mo Brooks?

Speaker 12 Mo Brooks being a, is it fair to say super ultra MAGA congressman, you know, all in for Donald Trump?

Speaker 12 I mean, really kind of on the, on the real kind of the the fringes of this, and he's running for U.S. Senate in Alabama.
They had a falling out. And he's told this story before,

Speaker 12 but it's worth remembering. And again, I want to just underline the fact that Mo Brooks is not a normie.
Mo Brooks is not a rhino, a squish, a moderate by any means, right?

Speaker 14 Well, okay.

Speaker 12 How would you characterize him? I feel like I'm being unfair.

Speaker 13 He was hardcore, hardcore MAGA.

Speaker 15 There was no question about it.

Speaker 12 So listen to Jonathan Carl talking about Mo Brooks.

Speaker 58 In March of 2022, Trump called him with an extraordinary series of demands.

Speaker 42 Among them...

Speaker 59 He asked me to publicly state that Donald Trump should be allowed to move back into the White House, reinstated as president.

Speaker 58 Brooks says he refused, telling the former president his demand was blatantly unconstitutional, and that then Trump retaliated, pulling his endorsement. Brooks went on to lose the Republican primary.

Speaker 59 Do you think he really believed that he could be reinstated?

Speaker 59 I sure hope not, because if he truly believed that, then he was

Speaker 59 way

Speaker 59 outside the bounds of reality.

Speaker 12 That's the very diplomatic way of putting it, I think, don't you?

Speaker 55 Totally.

Speaker 52 So the word there was reinstatement, right?

Speaker 23 Trump was demanding, and let's go back to the timing here.

Speaker 20 Carl's story here is that Trump made this demand of Brooks in March of 2022.

Speaker 12 2022.

Speaker 55 He's been out of office for more than a year.

Speaker 16 But let's go back to earlier in 2021.

Speaker 57 Trump was talking from the day he left office about being, quote, reinstated, right?

Speaker 16 And many, many people, including Jenna Ellis, another Trump lackey who has since, you know, begun to do some reform and repentance.

Speaker 57 God knows what's sincere or not.

Speaker 19 But the point is, in the summer of 2021, Jenna Ellis, who was was basically functioning as a lawyer for Trump and some others, said to Donald Trump, you can't be reinstated.

Speaker 53 There's no reinstatement in the Constitution. There's one way to get a president, Joe Biden, out of office.

Speaker 17 That is impeachment. That is the Constitution.
There's nothing else constitutional, right?

Speaker 53 So the reinstatement demand is essentially a demand for a coup, right?

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 53 So he's told this in 2021.

Speaker 48 In 2022, he's still at it and he's threatening Mo Brooks that he's got to support, quote, reinstating Donald Trump.

Speaker 17 He's demanding a coup and if you don't support it, he's going to oust you from the primary.

Speaker 13 Well, Brooks lost the primary.

Speaker 47 But clearly, the point is, no matter what people say to Donald Trump, he continues to try to undermine the Constitution and try to overturn the government.

Speaker 12 And that he will latch onto the most extreme, insane proposal.

Speaker 12 I mean, you know, this has happened again and again. You'll hear that, well, you know, Donald Trump is going to try to get Mike Pence to not count the votes on January 6th.

Speaker 12 Remember the first time you heard that? I remember the first time I heard that. I think it was when Paul Gosar in Arizona was talking about filing a suit.

Speaker 12 And it's like, Paul Gosar, right, that's not going to happen. And of course, we now know that Donald Trump took that very, very seriously and was prepared to take a lot of various steps.

Speaker 12 You know, you hear, well, maybe Donald Trump thinks he can be restored to the presidency, which is just bat shit, crazy stuff.

Speaker 12 And the former president of the United States, States, apparently, was kind of fixated on this and fixated to the point where he actually

Speaker 12 wanted to make this a litmus test for a loyalist. I suppose the good news in that story, or I don't know what it is, is that Mo Brooks, who is hardcore MAGA, even he wouldn't go along with that.

Speaker 12 Even he said, no, okay, I am with you. I'm prepared to do all this other shit.

Speaker 30 But I am not going to say that.

Speaker 12 So I suppose, I don't know. Is there a pony underneath that?

Speaker 54 Well, I'm going to try to come up with one.

Speaker 19 But before I get to the pony, let's go back and remember

Speaker 34 the various points at which Trump lackeys have said to the rest of us, he'll get over it.

Speaker 46 He'll stop.

Speaker 32 There's this point, there's this point at which he'll stop. So the first one was, who was it, Mick Mulvaney?

Speaker 20 Who was it who said, what's the point in humoring him or just unnamed Trump official?

Speaker 12 We don't know who it was. It may have been.
That was that famous anonymous quote in the Washington Post right after the election. What's the downside of humoring him, right?

Speaker 35 So every other president concedes the defeat, not Donald Trump.

Speaker 45 But what's the point of humoring him?

Speaker 29 We'll just go until what?

Speaker 32 The Electoral College?

Speaker 41 Mike Johnson says to Liz Cheney, you know what?

Speaker 44 I'm going to support this crazy Texas lawsuit to try to overturn the election result.

Speaker 20 But we're going to do this because

Speaker 48 right. This will get him over it.

Speaker 20 Trump will be done with it.

Speaker 45 Then we're going up to January 6th.

Speaker 22 We're just going to have this proceeding at January 6th, then he'll be over it, right?

Speaker 29 No, he tries to overturn the election.

Speaker 13 He's still all the way through the time that he's in office, January 20th, trying to overturn it.

Speaker 46 And then after, afterwards, he's out and he's still trying to overturn the election.

Speaker 29 He's still trying to engineer pull strings to get people like Mo Brooks to help him overturn the election.

Speaker 19 There is no point at which Donald Trump will stop.

Speaker 12 Well, and this weekend, he's quoting Hungary's Victor Orban saying he should be reinstated, which is like, oh, wow.

Speaker 40 Right.

Speaker 12 I mean, this is like cartoon stuff.

Speaker 12 Okay, but this is really, really a great point because this rationalization, oh, we will just go this far and we won't go any further and then they keep doing it or whatever.

Speaker 12 Watch that's going to happen over and over and over again in 2024 as Republicans go, okay, so if he just gets past the indictments or if he just gets the nomination or, okay, if he becomes president again, you know, then we'll put those guardrails back up or maybe he will grow into office this time.

Speaker 12 Every illusion they've ever had about him has been destroyed and yet they cling to the illusions. This requires, I believe, a psychologist, not two political guys like you and and me, to figure out.

Speaker 12 It's like you have these illusions, you cling to these illusions. You know, you tell yourself a certain story that you go so far and no further.

Speaker 12 And every single time they'll go along, they'll go beyond that.

Speaker 22 No, no, absolutely.

Speaker 16 And just to be clear, the next stage of this is anytime that you or I think, well, it can't get worse, we need to remember that.

Speaker 49 We need to remember this point because my version of it can't get worse has been, well, he's already been president for one term.

Speaker 19 If he got in, he'd only have one more term and then he'd have to leave.

Speaker 34 Why? Why?

Speaker 14 Why?

Speaker 52 That's just what's in the Constitution.

Speaker 29 And I think that's just another reassurance that either people like me tell ourselves or that we've been told that we shouldn't count on.

Speaker 52 We shouldn't count on anything with this guy.

Speaker 12 I think that's true. I actually said something on another podcast, and I'm hesitating to say it again.
You know, if he loses this time, you know that he'll never graciously concede losing.

Speaker 12 He will never acknowledge his loss. Oh, yeah.
And he'll run in 2028.

Speaker 23 I mean, he'll be old, but this isn't going to stop him.

Speaker 12 So it's like, this never comes to an end. And so, look, Will, I'm just going to push back a little bit here.

Speaker 12 When I inserted the word, he's going to create concentration camps, you said, well, no, not concentration camps.

Speaker 12 Give it five minutes. He's going to say, okay, they're accusing me of wanting to have concentration camps for illegal immigrants for the vermin.
Damn right, they're concentration camps for the vermin.

Speaker 12 The window will keep moving. And then you'll start to see normies who will go, well, no, the camps seem going too far.

Speaker 12 But, well, Lindsey Graham will explain what he really means by camps are just temporary settlements. And then it'll keep moving and moving and moving until it will be a litmus test.

Speaker 12 And if any Republican says, I am against concentration camps for illegal immigrants, they'll get primarily. I'm sorry.
I'm so cynical.

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Speaker 12 Speaking of somebody who has gone all the way, who has never hit a speed bump ever, ever, ever, Carrie Lake. Is she still claiming she's the governor of Arizona?

Speaker 12 I'm not sure because that would be awkward for her, but she's going to be the Republican candidate for U.S. Senate in Arizona.

Speaker 12 It is not an insane idea that she would be Donald Trump's running mate, except since she's running for U.S. Senate.
Our colleague Tim Miller caught up with her.

Speaker 12 And Tim is doing this thing with the circus, Showtime Circus. And he actually sat down with Steve Bannon and Carrie Lake, and they had very, very interesting exchanges.

Speaker 12 And I think there's some chemistry between Tim and Carrie.

Speaker 30 I'm just saying, well, there's some touching that goes on.

Speaker 12 Did you catch that part?

Speaker 14 And all of this? Yes.

Speaker 12 Where Tim's going, why are you touching me? And she goes, well, I'm a mom. I said, well, I don't know.

Speaker 12 It's one thing to have an interview. Say, I guess this is something we learned about Tim is that when he's interviewing somebody, he doesn't want them to be touching him.

Speaker 12 Which, okay, I agree with him on that. This is one of the great things about doing this on Zoom: there's no touching, Will.
There's just no.

Speaker 15 I don't know about Thursday now.

Speaker 12 I don't know about Thursday night when we're in D.C., but I just don't think there's going to be a lot of touch. Anyway, I want to play this, and I'd like to credit it.

Speaker 12 I think it's Ron Filipowski posted this on what used to be known as Twitter. But here's a short two minutes.
Tim Miller actually having a conversation with Carrie Lake.

Speaker 34 Let's listen.

Speaker 60 Whatever you guys say on the circus, I want to be able to have conservative students not being shamed on our side.

Speaker 62 This is like a golden age for conservative student speech. It's like it's the best time ever.
If you're a conservative student, you want to talk, you have huge platforms.

Speaker 62 I went to watch you speak at Turning Point USA. All these kids have huge audiences that come to see them, and that's great.
That's fine. They're all speaking.
Their speech isn't as a threat.

Speaker 62 There weren't any cops coming to shut down the Turning Point USA thing. But here, here's the thing.

Speaker 40 True.

Speaker 62 You say you care about the fentanyl crisis and our kids.

Speaker 60 I deep, care deeply.

Speaker 15 So if you care so deeply about this,

Speaker 62 couldn't you actually do something about it if you stopped the bullshit about the last election? If you had just acknowledged that Trump had lost and acknowledged that you had lost,

Speaker 62 you'd probably be in good shape to do something. You probably would have won your governor's race.

Speaker 62 Had you just talked about things people cared about instead of the election fraud.

Speaker 62 So sometimes don't you ever think to yourself, I wish I could just stop talking about this fake thing that Donald Trump made me make up so that I could actually talk about the stuff that's important?

Speaker 62 Because we agree about fentanyl. I agree.
I wish we could deal with that.

Speaker 60 I talked about that all the time of the campaign, Trump. I'm sorry you weren't with me.

Speaker 60 I'm sorry you weren't with me every step of the way. The people of Arizona understand me and they know me and they care about me and I care about them.

Speaker 60 And I care about them. Getting them better.

Speaker 61 Freeing the people who are held

Speaker 61 political prisoners.

Speaker 60 Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 62 I think you are still a little extreme. That's okay, though.

Speaker 15 It's good to see you again. A little extreme.
It's wonderful. I'd like to agree on this.

Speaker 62 That's right. I'd love to.
We agree on this. We have some areas of agreement.
I'd love to. We agree on the fentanyl thing.
But then you get into the other stuff.

Speaker 62 But the other stuff is going to be a lot of fun.

Speaker 62 Sorry I'm not making you happy. The other stuff is what you, I don't know why you're touching me.
The other stuff is what you have to do to win.

Speaker 30 This is touching too much.

Speaker 62 Sorry, I'm a mom.

Speaker 62 I'm sorry. I'm not a mom.

Speaker 40 I like to touch too.

Speaker 62 But, you know, in an interview setting, it's a little uncomfortable.

Speaker 60 I'm sorry that we don't agree on everything. But what I am not sorry about is that I think that you, I do believe that we can agree that we both love America.

Speaker 40 We do.

Speaker 62 Well, I know that I love America. I do think that you were okay with Donald Trump trying to end the American experiment last time.
So that makes me wonder how sincere your love is.

Speaker 60 But I do appreciate that. Thank you for your time.
Good.

Speaker 12 Thank you.

Speaker 12 And thank you for your time.

Speaker 14 Okay.

Speaker 12 Masterclass, got to say, despite the touching, it was very interesting.

Speaker 14 What do you think?

Speaker 18 God bless Tim.

Speaker 54 I so admire Tim's ability to think on his feet and to have a conf, it's not a confrontational interview.

Speaker 17 He's talking to a crazy person, I think is a crazy person, but

Speaker 45 he manages to sort of...

Speaker 12 Without saying, you're an effing crazy person. Why am I talking to this crazy person? Give up the crazy.
Right.

Speaker 52 But, okay, can we pause on that for a second, Charlie? Yeah. Give up.

Speaker 20 The phrase give up the crazy is really good.

Speaker 32 That really crystallizes this thing.

Speaker 49 Is Carrie Lake, and are people like Carrie Lake and the Republican Party, are they nuts or are they just pathologically dishonest?

Speaker 25 Like, does Carrie Lake actually believe that she won the governor's race and that Donald Trump won the presidential race?

Speaker 16 In which case, why is Tim trying to reason with her because you can't reason with her? Or is Tim basically betting that she knows, because it sounds like he's betting that she knows it's all bullshit.

Speaker 12 I'm going to go in her case with the pathological liar, understanding that the crazy is a rational choice in this Republican field.

Speaker 12 Does that make sense? Okay.

Speaker 54 Sounding crazy.

Speaker 13 Not being crazy. Yes.

Speaker 12 Right. Because playing to the crazy, never admitting you lost, never saying it, it's a tactic.
It's a choice.

Speaker 12 And let's face it, you know, you could say that it's kind of worked for Donald Trump to a certain extent.

Speaker 21 Right.

Speaker 12 Right. And you're looking around.

Speaker 19 Now I got to bring out my pony, okay?

Speaker 54 Pony from Holly Berkeley Fletcher.

Speaker 12 40 minutes in. We had to wait 40 minutes for the pony.

Speaker 20 Okay. And folks, this pony sucks.

Speaker 29 But here's the, but the pony is.

Speaker 36 The pony is that I hope, Charlie, that you're right.

Speaker 20 I hope that all of these Republicans, most of them, know that it's bullshit.

Speaker 36 Because if they don't know it's bullshit, we're in a hell of a lot more trouble, right?

Speaker 25 If they're really deluded.

Speaker 36 I mean, I think that Donald Trump is actually deluded about having won the 2020 election.

Speaker 27 And that's part of why I'm even more scared of Trump.

Speaker 47 But if they know it's bullshit, if Kerry Lake knows it's bullshit, then imagine Kerry Lake getting elected, which could happen, right?

Speaker 36 You would certainly like prefer to have a shameless liar elected who can be reasoned with like Tim Miller is trying to do in that interview on other issues on fentanyl or other things than to have someone who's genuinely nuts, wouldn't you?

Speaker 21 Really?

Speaker 12 I think we need to think this through. I mean, I have some quick answers to that, but

Speaker 12 and here we are in late 2023 debating what would you rather have, a deeply committed pathological lying fascist or someone who's actually insane?

Speaker 15 Oh, huh.

Speaker 12 Those are our choices. Death by arsenic or death by woodchurch.

Speaker 12 I don't know.

Speaker 34 I don't know.

Speaker 12 All right, so what else did you hear on the Sunday morning shows that you want to talk about?

Speaker 32 There was a lot of stuff about Gaza, a lot of stuff about Israel and Gaza.

Speaker 46 Benjamin Detanyahu did two interviews, one on Meet the Press, one on CNN.

Speaker 13 And it was interesting.

Speaker 49 He made actually a lot of interesting points, many of which were worthwhile.

Speaker 16 So one of them is that he wants to set up field hospitals.

Speaker 20 And this is a really big deal that's going to be happening in Gaza.

Speaker 45 The IDF, the Israeli Defense Forces, have gone into Gaza and they've surrounded, they've already moved people, begun to move people out of two hospitals in Gaza.

Speaker 19 There's a third hospital, the big one, Al-Shifa, and the IDF has surrounded that. And there's a lot of people in there.

Speaker 29 But basically, the Israelis have alleged, and American intelligence agrees with them, we don't have the details yet, that there are massive Hamas networks under these hospitals.

Speaker 12 Would be consistent with their pattern and practice.

Speaker 14 Right.

Speaker 49 And the United States government, in the form of Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor, was on TV saying, we don't want to have firefights in hospitals.

Speaker 20 So we don't want the Israelis to go in there.

Speaker 57 But it's really hard to know how you're going to get at the Hamas tunnels unless you can get the patients and the staff out of the hospitals.

Speaker 49 So Netanyahu is trying to get France, he's trying to get Qatar and others, or the UAE, I think it was, to set up other places where these patients and these doctors can go.

Speaker 44 And some of them have moved out.

Speaker 56 A couple of the hospitals, people have begun to move out.

Speaker 20 If they can do this and the Israelis can go in, then Charlie, we're going to get a moment of truth.

Speaker 17 Because if we can get under the hospitals, we will get an answer.

Speaker 56 And there will be video, there will be evidence of the Hamas networks.

Speaker 35 And if this is true, this is horrific, right?

Speaker 16 Because above ground, we have normal human beings, normal Israeli parents, normal Palestinian parents trying to protect their children, parents who lie on top of their children to protect them.

Speaker 45 Meanwhile, underground, we have these Hamas murderers literally lying under children, under them, under patients, under sick people, under doctors, so that they, the Hamas people, the combatants, will be protected and the innocent people will be killed.

Speaker 13 It is a complete inversion of everything we believe morally. And this is not about Jews versus Muslims or Arabs versus Israelis, right?

Speaker 29 This is about civilized people, whether Arab or Israeli, doing those people versus these pathological murderers, Hamas.

Speaker 12 Do you have any doubt that that's what we're going to find?

Speaker 19 I'm not going to say it until we find it.

Speaker 20 The Israelis have produced some evidence.

Speaker 29 They have some intercepts.

Speaker 32 They have some audio of the Palestinian, of the Hamas guys talking about this.

Speaker 12 Will the truth matter? Will the truth matter and to whom? I mean, we live in an age right now where there is so much disinformation, there is so much skepticism, there will be so much pushback.

Speaker 14 Right.

Speaker 12 Will the truth actually make a difference?

Speaker 12 I mean, you're suggesting that when they go down there with the cameras and they map it and we see the tunnels, that, what, the rest of the world, the Columbia humanities faculty will go, wow, okay, so maybe it's not, you know, genocide.

Speaker 54 So Charlie, my answer is, I probably am being a little bit naive here, but I think if I ask myself, in what way am I being naive, the answer is, what if we never get the answer?

Speaker 13 What if we never get it?

Speaker 32 And the reason is, what do the Hamas guys have in those tunnels under the hospitals, assuming this is true?

Speaker 26 They have a lot of rockets, they have fuel, they have explosives.

Speaker 36 Why should they allow the world to see this if they don't care about the life above them, which they've already demonstrated by putting themselves under the hospital?

Speaker 40 Right, I think they'll blow it up.

Speaker 49 I mean, we already have a hospital where there was a tragedy because you know, an Islamic jihad rocket blew up, they will blow it up, right?

Speaker 12 And so they'll blow it up, and then they will blame Israel for that exactly, and in the process, trying to destroy the evidence, and they will have destroyed a lot of the evidence.

Speaker 36 So, that's my nightmare scenario.

Speaker 12 Oh, there are so many nightmare scenarios here. Usually, we leave when you found the pony.

Speaker 30 You've not given me the nightmare scenario.

Speaker 55 I'm sorry.

Speaker 23 I don't have a good answer for this, but I will say this.

Speaker 25 I don't think they'll be able to destroy all the evidence.

Speaker 57 If this is true, I do think that the Israelis or the Americans or somebody will be able to find enough forensic evidence.

Speaker 36 Whether it will convince the world, I don't know.

Speaker 34 And Charlie, even if they do, even if they do, think of the people in Al-Shifa hospital who don't leave.

Speaker 36 People who can't, you know, if they get blown up,

Speaker 51 they're dead anyway.

Speaker 19 And that's a horrific tragedy, regardless of how you look at it.

Speaker 12 It is horrific. It is such a tragedy on top of tragedy, and it's more than we can bear.
Over the weekend, we had these massive rallies around the world and Western Europe.

Speaker 12 Many of them took on a really disturbing pro-Hamas feeling.

Speaker 12 And I have not had a chance to read in depth what's happened with a cabinet shake-up in Great Britain where the Conservative government has sacked the Home Secretary. They're moving folks around.

Speaker 12 The Conservative government in Britain seems to be very, very divided. But the country seems to have been really shocked by the intensity of the protests on there.
What do they call it?

Speaker 12 Commemoration Day. And of course, in New York, we had those widely disseminated scenes of pro-Hamas demonstrators tearing down American flags on Veterans Day.

Speaker 12 The wounds from this conflict, I think, are very deep, and I think they're going to be long-lasting.

Speaker 16 Yeah, they are.

Speaker 29 And speaking of long-lasting, so one thing I think we do have is Netanyahu talking about the future of Gaza.

Speaker 19 I think we have the clip from CNN where he talks about what's going to happen after this.

Speaker 57 And maybe we'll play that and then listen, talk about that.

Speaker 63 The EUS also says that any post-war plan for Gaza must include Palestinian-led governance and Gaza unified with the West Bank under the Palestinian Authority. You appeared to reject that yesterday.

Speaker 63 You said Israel will not accept a, quote, civilian authority there that educates its children to hate Israel. So I just want to be clear.

Speaker 63 Are you saying that Israel would not accept giving control of Gaza over to the Palestinian Authority after the war?

Speaker 42 The first thing we have to do is destroy Hamas because otherwise they'll do it again and again and again, and they've said so. So we'll destroy Hamas.

Speaker 42 The second thing we have to understand is that there has to be an overriding and overreaching Israeli military envelope because we've seen any place that we leave, we just

Speaker 42 exit, give it to some other force. Very soon terrorism resurges, so we've achieved nothing.
The third thing we have to understand is that a civilian authority has to cooperate in two goals.

Speaker 42 One is to demilitarize Gaza, and the second is to de-radicalize Gaza. And I have to say that the Palestinian Authority has unfortunately failed on both counts.

Speaker 42 They don't demilitarize the West Bank, Judea and Samaria. We have to do it.
We have to go in and fight the terrorists. They don't de-radicalize.
They teach our children the hatred of Israel.

Speaker 42 They do pay for for slay. They pay for terrorist murderers and their families.
The more Jews they kill, the more they pay.

Speaker 42 They refuse to this day, 36 days after this savagery, to condemn

Speaker 42 Hamas did on November 7th.

Speaker 15 Sorry?

Speaker 42 If not the PA. Well,

Speaker 42 there has to be a reconstructed civilian authority. There has to be something else.
Otherwise, we're just falling into that same rabbit hole. And we're going to have the same result.

Speaker 42 Remember, the PA was already in Gaza. When Israel left Gaza, it handed the teas over to the PA.
And what happened? Within a very short time, Hamas took over, kicked them out.

Speaker 42 They weren't willing to fight Hamas. They're still not willing to fight Hamas.

Speaker 42 So you have to have some kind of authority, civilian Palestinian authority that is willing to fight the terrorists and educating, and importantly, must educate their children for a future of peace, peace, cooperation, prosperity, cooperation with Israel, not the annihilation of Israel.

Speaker 42 And so far, that hasn't happened. The burden of proof is on the PA and they've failed every single country.

Speaker 12 Okay, so who? You know, going down the rabbit hole, I'm listening to that and going, okay, he's not wrong, but I don't hear an answer. I don't know what happens the day after.

Speaker 12 It doesn't sound like this cycle is going to end anytime soon. Will, what did you hear there?

Speaker 52 Yeah, the same thing.

Speaker 35 And Charlie, the problem is both are true. Exactly what you said.

Speaker 43 He's not wrong.

Speaker 19 He's not wrong about what's failed.

Speaker 16 And yet the upshot is there is no exit from this, right?

Speaker 37 He says, first of all, he talks about the military envelope.

Speaker 19 Now, that alone in any negotiation with a Palestinian,

Speaker 22 right?

Speaker 20 That's Israel.

Speaker 17 And this has happened before in peace talks between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

Speaker 16 The Israelis have said, we don't trust you.

Speaker 19 We want to have our military in charge of security.

Speaker 17 And the Palestinians said, no, no, we want our own security forces, right?

Speaker 32 Now, Netanyahu is talking about history.

Speaker 17 and the failure of, you know, Hamas has obviously betrayed and attacked Israel and just murdered a bunch of people.

Speaker 56 The PA has failed to control Hamas.

Speaker 49 They've failed before and they're, you know, they to this day will not condemn the October 7th attack as they should.

Speaker 20 But what he's talked himself into is he's just eliminated everybody, right?

Speaker 19 Hamas can't run Gaza.

Speaker 36 The PA can't run Gaza, according to him. Who?

Speaker 43 Something else?

Speaker 16 And the problem here is that it's not just that Netanyahu has described a future where there is no solution.

Speaker 30 It's that he's in the middle of a war right now.

Speaker 45 And public support for the war around the world, to the extent there is any depends on some kind of exit strategy and some kind of statehood something positive in Gaza and Palestine and he's not offering that the United States is trying to bridge that is trying to tell the Palestinians there's a way out of here but you're not going to have the world tolerating what's going on the next the ground stage of the war and there's just no way out without some kind of positive offer at the end of it.

Speaker 12 You know, I'm just trying to think what a solution would even look like. And it would have to be some sort of a two-state solution with a real commitment to somehow de-radicalizing the situation.

Speaker 12 And it's like, okay, that's where you're kind of reaching for the unicorn. How you do that?

Speaker 12 It would take the Arab world coming together and saying, okay, we're going to put our support behind this solution. But in return, we have to dial down the kill all the Jews rhetoric.

Speaker 23 Right.

Speaker 47 You know, in the other interview that Netanyahu did on Meet the Press, Kristen Welker asked him, what about an international force, right?

Speaker 19 People are reaching.

Speaker 53 People are trying to offer Netanyahu something other than Israel reoccupying Gaza.

Speaker 45 And he's rejecting all of that.

Speaker 48 He's saying none of that will work, but they're going to need something.

Speaker 12 What is your read? I mean, does he survive after this? Because, I mean, he screwed this up so badly. He has divided the country.
He's weakened the country.

Speaker 12 He has embraced the most extreme, destabilizing elements. Normally, there's a rallying around the flag effect.
I don't sense that's happening in Israel because October 7th was such a complete failure.

Speaker 12 Like, he survived a lot in the past. Do you think he's going to survive?

Speaker 14 Will it be Netanyahu?

Speaker 12 Will it be his government that will decide what happens in the future?

Speaker 45 At the minute that Israel can get past this retribution deterrence, go into Gaza phase, right?

Speaker 44 This guy had one job, which was security.

Speaker 26 He spectacularly failed.

Speaker 19 He will absolutely be gone out of there.

Speaker 32 There were other reasons to get rid of him besides that.

Speaker 29 Israel will be able to get rid of Netanyahu.

Speaker 47 The problem is the palestinians because nobody's been able they've got to replace hamas they've got to put but they have in in mahmoud abbas a like a very old guy who like there's a lot of corruption in the pa that netanyahu is not wrong about that and there's got to be a palestinian government that's better than the one that they have now and charlie i have no idea how the palestinians are going to get there none No.

Speaker 12 So this story is not likely to have a pretty ending. Will Salatan, it is always great to start the week with you.

Speaker 12 Looking forward to seeing you in person this Thursday night when we have our live show in Washington, D.C. And we'll be back next Monday and we'll do this all over again.

Speaker 28 Thanks, Charlie.

Speaker 12 The Bulwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper and engineered and edited by Jason Brown.

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