A.B. Stoddard: A Completely Pointless Debate

Welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes.
It is September 28th, 2023. Oh my God, what a shit show last night.
I'm sorry, let's cut right to this. We have a lot to talk about.
We have Bob Menendez meeting with his fellow Democrats. We're going to try to talk him into walking off the cliff.
We have a government shutdown coming. We have Donald Trump pretending to be the every man talking to a non-union audience up in Michigan.
What am I leaving out here? We have a great piece by my colleague A.B. Stoddard on abortion.
And of course, we had the kids table debate last night. First of all, hey, welcome A.B.
to the podcast, our morning hangover debate podcast. So, Charlie, we were together the morning after the last debate.
We had to do it again. But we didn't have camera.
So this is like a whole new horizon. For people who don't know, yes, this is a YouTube video.
You can see the very different backdrops that, you know, AB, sunny and bright. I'm kind of in the cave, a little bit darker here.
So we're also, by the way, doing morning shots as a YouTube video. And the theme of that is you are not the crazy ones.
But I mean, watching that debate last night, where do you start? I mean, I had low expectations for this debate, but it was ridiculous. I mean, first of all, you realize Donald Trump's not there.
This debate is a non-event that had the advantage of also being

completely pointless. And a lot of the time, the single digit folks were just yelling at each other

and interrupting one another. This is the we're about to take a commercial break.
Pulling the car over. We'll have more of the second Republican debate live from the Reagan Presidential Library.
Yeah, that's a... Hey, kids, if you don't stop that, I'm pulling the car over.
Don me come back there i mean it was like that it was wow now there was one memorable zinger here i mean i and i know that everybody else is going to be citing it nikki haley did have one good shot but it was a bit warmed over because she borrowed it ripped it off from one of my favorite movie scenes of all time. A.B., are you an Adam Sandler fan? Do you know Billy Madison? I did not know that she ripped it off from Adam Sandler.
Okay. So I knew this immediately because in a previous life in the before times, when we would have callers to the show who were particularly awful, I would always play the Billy Madison clip.
I didn't have to respond. So it was sort of like, this was my canned response to the dumbest things that people would say on my show.
So I go way back with Billy Madison. So here's Nikki Haley with the original.
This is infuriating because TikTok is one of the most dangerous social media apps that we could have.

And what you've got, I honestly, every time I hear you, I feel a little bit dumber for what you say. Because I can't believe they hear you've got a TikTok situation.
Mr. Madison, what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard.
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
All right. So you played that on your show after callers?

Oh, yes.

In fact, I did it long enough that people would be,

the chant would go up when there'd be a certain caller.

You know, people on social media would go,

Billy Madison, you've got to do a Billy Madison.

There was kind of like, you know, people began to demand it.

It was very good.

So do we have to do this?

Do we have to pretend that there was a winner and loser?

Do we have to do that kind of punditry?

No, I forbid that. Okay, but we have a great piece in the bulwark today by Nicholas Grossman, who said, this felt like a broadcast from an alternate dimension, one where the Senate had convicted Donald Trump on the January 6th impeachment, barred him from office, freeing Republicans up to debate about other substantive things.
And because it was a Fox Business debate, of course, they didn't ask about Donald Trump's suggestion that Mark Milley be executed. They didn't ask about the big fraud judgment.
It was, I mean, there were some shots, but they were kind of felt like kind of slap fighting shots, you know, I mean, not, not really hard. So let's pretend just for like 30 seconds, if this is like a normal pundit, you know, discussion.
Who won last night? So I won't revisit my response a month ago to last the first debate which feels like six months ago when i said what was the effing point yeah pretending that it is a before times event that we're supposed to take seriously and and we're back there we've time traveled it is fun to think oh you know nikki haley had this great like breakout event before the first debate Tim Scott was the the buzz he was the it guy a kid in the lineup then she wasn't all of a sudden he disappears in the first debate she has this great performance you and I talked about how all the donors could get on the phone with each other that by the end of that week rally behind her push out DeSantis consolidate the field and make something of their checks that they're writing and instead we get to this again single digit you know face off where everyone comes in on i hope red bull but maybe cocaine speaking so quickly it was really hard to understand them and she was i guess ostensibly the star because de santis's first debate was so bad she was really kind of obnoxious and frantic barking at everybody yeah she she had some good shots de santis lives to see another day he'll get some new checks in the mail charlie i don't think it matters. I think that Mike Pence and Tim Scott were very aware that they're unlikely to be at the third debate.
There was a sort of a wistful kind of sadness to them, particularly Pence, just knowing this was kind of the swan song. It was pitiful.
The time for choosing his past. Sound a little bit kinder about this.
I mean, I did think that, I mean, Nikki Haley had a solid night. I mean, to the extent that people

are looking for who's going to be the second place finisher, she didn't hurt herself.

Ron DeSantis, though, just cannot get out of the way of his cringeworthy awkwardness. I mean,

I'm sorry. It's distracting.
And I know I'm dumbing this down, but it is distracting,

you know, just watching that weird, fake, robotic smile he has. I mean, it's distracting and I know I'm dumbing this down but it's distracting you know just watching that weird fake robotic smile he has I mean it's just creepy you probably didn't watch the show The Boys right the character Homelander I'm sorry once you've seen Homelander side by side with Rhonda Sanders you can't unsee it that's that's part of the problem I'm gonna look that up today and and allow myself to never unsee it again for the rest of my life.

He was so cringe.

We're going to focus on Midland and not Moscow.

And he has all these lines and he memorized.

He made sure to always say he's with his wife.

But Luke, it was better.

It just was better than the first one.

Who?

Ron DeSantis.

It was better than his first debate.

You're just lowering your expectations. I know.
I mean, he just lives to see another day. But again, that doesn't matter.
Yeah. I mean, how many days is he going to see? I mean, how far does he have to fall? I mean, does he have to fall in the fifth place, in the sixth place? So by the way, thank you for reminding me of something that I'd actually forgotten about.
I'd forgotten that Mike Pence and Tim Scott were also there. I mean, I'm sorry.
But apparently they said some stuff. Okay.
So because we need just a little bit of, there was something substantive out of this. You know, I continue.
I have this lonely torch that I'm carrying for Chris Christie. Me too.
You know, we've had our issues. Okay.
I mean, we have some history, some F-bomb histories, but he made a point this morning. He was on Morning Joe and he said, you know, if I hadn't been on the stage, nobody would have mentioned Donald Trump.
I think he's right about that. I mean, there were some shots taken, but they were the deficit shots are not showing up, but here is his closing remark, and I don't know how it plays in New Hampshire, what I know about how it plays in New Hampshire, but here is Chris Christie, at least being Chris Christie, near the end of this debate.
Look, I think I've been the only one on this stage who's been clear about this. I vote Donald Trump off the island right now.
And the reason I vote him off the island. Any of the people on this stage? Every person on this stage has shown the respect for Republican voters to come here to express their views honestly, candidly and directly and to take your questions honestly.
I have respect for every man and woman on this stage because they've done it. Vivek, put your hand down for a second, would you? Chill out.
I still got time, dude. So chill out.
Here, look, this guy has not only divided our party, He's divided families all over this country. He's divided friends all over this country.
I've spoken to people and I know everyone else has who have sat at Thanksgiving dinner or at a birthday party and can't have a conversation anymore. If they disagree with Donald Trump, he needs to be voted off the island.

Yeah, he needs to be voted off the island.

So but unfortunately, and again, I'm sorry, because this feels like kind of, you know, rote punditry. I mean, the winner last night is the guy that didn't show up.
I mean, Donald Trump is paying no price for not showing up. He's undoubtedly watching this shit show and going, why should I show up? What is the point? You know, he can show almost an infinite amount of contempt for the Republican National Committee, for, you know, Fox News, Fox Business, and for Republican primary voters.
And they basically say, thank you, sir. May I have another one? So, right, I mean, he wins, nothing changes.
You're right. I mean, they need him.
Fox and Fox Business and the RNC. The RNC is rigged, you know, for his nomination.
He happens to be doing so well in the polling, but it was still never really a neutral setup. I found what Chris Christie said, and you said when you were listening to him, we've all been there.
I mean, it was so searing because, you know, even Trump supporters watching, you know, have this familiar feeling about how divisive he is. And of course, it was awful that we couldn't have more Chris Christie.
He, if he had more time, would have brought up General Milley. You know, we would have had more exposure to the poison of Trump.
But I'm so concerned, Charlie, about a debate without Chris Christie, even though they don't matter. Which may be the next one.
Right. Even though Donald Trump's never going to show up to them and he's still going to be the nominee unless, you know, something, something, something unicorn.
Meteor. It's just going to be hard to not have a truth teller there.
It was hard to not have Hutchinson there. So it's just so cringe to watch these things.
They're so pointless and they're so depressing. Speaking of Mark Miller, let's move on because I think we've already spent enough time on the debate, don't you think? I mean, the non-event debate that we're not going to go through the motions of pretending is actually going to make a lot.
I mean, I'm happy to be done. Yeah.
So Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, is interviewed by Nora O'Donnell on 60 Minutes. And she asked him about the very pointed suggestion from the former commander-in-chief that he be put to death for treason.
I just think that we have so normalized all of this, and as I've said, Donald Trump has succeeded in normalizing violent rhetoric, and the problem is that if you normalize the rhetoric of violence, you can normalize violence itself. This seems like one of those extraordinary moments for Captain Bonespurs to go after one of the most decorated officers in the U.S.
military and suggest that he be put to death. Nora O'Donnell asks Milley about that, and here's what Milley had to say.
President Trump recently said that your dealings with China were so egregious that in times gone by, the punishment would have been death. Normal.
That's right. He said that.
That's correct. He is suggesting that you be punished by death.
The former commander-in-chief to his former top military advisor. I'm a soldier.
I've been faithful and loyal to the Constitution of the United States 44 and a half years. And my family and I have sacrificed greatly for this country, my mother and father before them.
And, you know, as much as these comments are directed at me, it's also directed at the institution of the military. And there's 2.1 million of us in uniform.
And the American people can take it to the bank that all of us, every single one of us, from private to general, we're loyal to that constitution. It will never turn our back on it no matter what, no matter what the threats, no matter what the humiliation, no matter what.
If we're willing to die for that document, if we're willing to deploy to combat, if we're willing to lose an arm, a leg, an eye to protect and support and defend that document and protect the American people, then we're willing to live for it too. So I'm not going to comment directly on those things, but I can tell you that this military, this soldier, me, will never turn my back on that constitution.
But for the record, was there anything inappropriate or treasonous about the calls you made to China? Absolutely not. Zero.
None. It almost seems odd to ask this question because the former commander-in-chief seems to be calling for your execution.
Yeah. Are you worried about your safety? I've got this.
Safety precautions. I wish those comments had not been made, but they were, and we'll take appropriate measures to ensure my safety and the safety of my family.
So he'll be okay. But, you know, AB, as Mona Charon writes in The Bulwark today, you know, this whole climate of fear and intimidation can't be minimized.
This is part of the world that we live in now, where these threats cause people to live in fear. Now, Mark Milley is going to be okay.
He's surrounded by like lots of guys with guns, you know, burly guys. He's not, you know, that's probably not a problem, but I don't think we should be surprised that other people are frightened by it.
But I guess I'm listening to this and, you know, here's Captain Bones Burrs, a guy who evaded the draft, you know, who mocked John McCain's time as a POW, who apparently has said, you know, don't invite disabled veterans to come to these events because they're embarrassing to see. And I guess, fuck that guy.
You know what I'm saying? I mean, fully fuck that guy. There's so many people out there that think that Donald Trump is this super patriot who supports the military and he has the back of the people, you know, in blue and in green and everything.
But I mean, seriously, fuck this guy. I'm sorry.
I watched that last night and then I listened to it now and I never want to hear it again. It is so enraging to me that he has never paid a political price with his base for trashing the military and their commitment and their selflessness as they carry out an oath to the constitution and put their lives on the line for it, for us.
And the idea that you are right. Millie will be safe.
That anyone who steps out now from Cassidy Hutchinson to Senator Romney to anybody that steps out and tells the truth is actually at the very best poll workers very intimidated and then at the worst at risk of their physical safety and potentially their lives and it's I am just stunned of all the things that Trump supporters, his most devoted fans, can rationalize. The deep state, the 91 charges, his great relationship with Vladimir Putin, trusting him more than his own DNI.
whatever they suck up, chew and swallow, that he talks this way about those who serve, that he looks that way at those who serve and that he undermines and politicizes the military. It's so disgusting.
And he's never, ever, ever paid for it. And that's why I think in the context of the motion from Jack Smith to impose a protective order on him, I mean, the fact that the judges in this case, all the judges, including, you know, Judge Chutkin, I mean, have to take into account the fact that this guy has a long track record of intimidation and of threats and that it does take a toll.
Look, I mean, in that remarkable piece on Mitt Romney was in The Atlantic, talked about how, you know, he had to have, you know, spend $5,000 a week on security. There are members of Congress who have maybe, maybe rationalized, maybe they're full of it, but they're saying that they didn't vote against Donald Trump, vote for his impeachment, because they were afraid for their physical security.
Now, OK, maybe they are cowards. Maybe they should get out of office.
But the reality is the point you made is it goes all the way down. School board members, you know, people like Shea Moss, just workers.
And for a lot of those people, they will make the calculation. It's just not worth it.
And they will get out of politics. They will pull back, which again is part of this playbook.
You scare out the normies, the truth tellers, you drive them out. And what fills the vacuum? Whether or not this is a vast conspiracy or whether it's simply his thuggish reptilian instinct, the effect is the same.

Right. I think that people are going to get out of public service that we need, the kind of people with integrity and commitment that we need.
Like you mentioned, school nurses, school librarians, school board members. But what we're going to see next year is people who right now are hiding behind their support for Tim Scott, But we won't be able to protect them much longer because his candidacy won't last too long yeah or they're hiding behind no labels who are obviously very uncomfortable about the idea of faking their support next year for donald trump but they will they will they will do it because if they're not going to get out of politics, it will ruin their wife's life or their kid's life or their life with threats and the need for security to take.
You and I have this talk about the alignment of the planets. So it is Thursday, September 28th, 2023.
We've just had this pointless presidential debate. Donald Trump continues to lead in the polls.
The Republicans in the House of Representatives are beginning their first impeachment hearing today, despite basically admitting that they're a little bit shaky on the timelines, on the evidence and all that. and they're beginning the impeachment proceeding a couple of days before they're about to shut down the federal government over what? So let's just talk about the shutdown because I mean, it does feel as if, you know, this is like a big deal, but we've kind of become numb to it like so many other things.
They're going to shut down the government. I mean, how does this get resolved when you have a speaker who basically has you know given away his manhood you'll put it in a lockbox somewhere i mean he has to choose at some point right between keeping the government open keeping the lights on he has to choose the country over his speakership and kevin mccarthy has at every single turn chosen the speakership because he really must want to have that freaking portrait up on the hall, whatever.
So where are we at here? Well, it's so interesting. As you notice, we're shutting down the government.
We don't really know why or over what the impeachment hearing commences today, not with any new evidence, but some like pro-Trump lawyers or people who are going to, I don't know, talk about the danger of this if it were to be real. That type of thing.
And then, yeah, it's sad that it's normalized, but we have been anticipating the government shutdown since the debt deal was sealed in May. So, I mean, the hardliners were promised if they didn't lead us off the cliff of default that they at least would be able to have their fun by September 30th.
So this was kind of written into the script. And McCarthy's known that there's nothing he can do at this hour.
And that's why he literally straight face tells reporters that it's Joe Biden's fault, because he hasn't had a meeting with him after he's already said repeatedly and so is all of his colleagues oh we really shouldn't do this this is really pointless people in here like you noted the other day this whole new concept of burning it down this is just a new phenomenon in his rank and file anyway so it's really a disaster and then there's's kind of, like you said, on another planet, like before time, strange alignment. President Biden is going to Arizona today to talk about federal funding for a John McCain museum and the threat that MAGA Republicans pose to democracy, unfortunately, because there's impeachment and a government shutdown consuming the oxygen in Washington, I don't even know how much that will be covered.
But it is stunning. Okay, so here's a little nutshell.
And I'm going to try to read off these tweets or something that happened last night in the House of Representatives. So the first vote is the House votes 104 to 330.
The House defeats an amendment to the defense spending bill by MAGA representative Andy Biggs from Arizona to slash Ukraine security assistance. Overwhelmingly, the House votes against this.
They vote to support Ukraine. That's kind of the good news.
Then, a few hours later, the House Rules Committee, dominated by Republicans, votes to pull $300 million in security assistance out of Ukraine. Aaron Blake of The Washington Post says, this is Congress in a nutshell.
More than three-fourths of the House support something, aid to Ukraine, including a majority of the majority, but it is quickly stripped out of the bill late at night because a relatively

small amount of money is a red line for a tiny handful of vocal members.

The good news is overwhelming support for Ukraine.

The bad news is that you have this very tiny minority of burn it all down folks, Trumpist folks, who basically are holding the three quarters of the House hostage on this issue. And it's important to remember back in January, they secured seats on the Rules Committee.
Yes. The terrorists did as a part of their deal with Kevin McCarthy so that he could become Speaker.
What could go wrong? So if they weren't on the rules committee, right, that wouldn't have been able to happen. I've been told for weeks there were more than 300 votes in the House for Ukraine and there would be a majority of Republicans.
But as you point out, as long as McCarthy continues to make sure they have books of matches in their hands and he's giving them to them. This whole

thing is going to be a constant bonfire. In other news today, the Democrats in the Senate are having a caucus meeting and apparently New Jersey Senator Bob Menendez is going to make his case.
Like, what gold bars have been lying around my house? I mean, doesn't everybody have $480,000 in $100 bills stuffed into their underwear drawer.

Interesting reaction from John Fetterman, who is, I think for some time, been all out of bleeps to give on all this stuff. Do you see what his statement is? This is a Fetterman unplugged.
He said, unless Senator Menendez is coming today to resign, I am not interested in hearing his explanation for gold bars stashed in a mattress. We're past the point of his tough talk and defiance, given the scope and scale of his alleged corruption.
Now, this is one of his colleagues, and they're going to be in the same room. So your take, how are Senate Democrats dealing with Bob Menendez? I mean, he's their guy.
It's a clubby place. And yet he's got corruption jumping off him like, you know, you know, like like flees off a gorilla.
Tell me what's going on. Well, he learned from the Republican Party that these things are survivable.
So he's going full double down MAGA defiance mode. And he played the race card, too, saying that he was just being run out of his job because he's a Latino.
This is just spectacular in so many ways. I'm really glad that John Fetterman is sort of liberated.
I wish he would wear some nice clothing, but he's in nothing left to lose mode. And I appreciate how honest he's being.
What is so is so remarkable obviously is that democrats are policing their own that they do care about some standards of conduct when they were being a little hesitant at first i was like hi guys you know al franken's on line one you better step up and start saying this is bad yeah and then there was a permission structure and they all did it together. But yes, it's true, Charlie.
Like, it's really important for people to know that he obviously has done a lot of good as the senator and on foreign relations. He has a really impressive record in a lot of ways.
And these friendships are deep after all these decades. And it was really hard for Cory Booker to come out and say, yes, it's time.
And so- It shouldn't have been because, I mean, Bob Menendez is an old school crook. You know, the folks from Just Security just have- And talk about the national security implications of them.
And this is like not close to the line. They have a piece, which I would urge people to go look at, the ongoing security threats posed by Bob Menendez, disclosing United States staffing blueprint in the Egyptian embassy, providing advanced information on U.S.
military aid, ghostwriting a letter requesting U.S. military aid from the government of Egypt, providing a heads up on questions the U.S.
senator is intended to ask of Egyptian officials. I mean, the ongoing national threat posed by Menendez in his current role, this is in a class all by itself.
So I guess the question is, so what happens after today's meeting? I mean, there have been, what, how many senators? Not all of them. We haven't heard from Schumer.
We haven't heard from Joe Biden. I mean, yeah, a lot of Democrats are broken with him, but what happens after today? You know, I don't know because he's playing Donald Trump.
The people who have not yet said publicly he should resign are going to say in the meeting, like, dude, you're done here. You know, we're going to present a United Front.
It's really stupid of you to try to hang on. We love you, Bob, but that's what the meeting is, is going to be.
And we just don't know how defiant he remains. I mean, it's so funny when you read The just security bullet points.
Really?

Saudis are walking around mar-a-lago and they're just allowed to go into some random storage room where there's a copy machine and boxes of classified documents like only democrats care about threats to national security now i mean it, it is so terrifying. It's not that Bob Menendez is not threatening national security.
I am terrified. But they can't fully force him out, can they? I mean, they can't.
I mean, the moment he resigns, he becomes a little person, right? Nobody, we talked about this with Ben Wittes yesterday. Nobody returns his calls.
He's got no protection. You know, he's cold product.
He's going to prison. So what is his best play? Hang on to the job.
What? Become a Trumpist? Vote for a Donald Trump pardon? What? What? No, I can't get in the mind of people who don't have shame. And this is a very new part of our politics where you double down, you keep lying, and you say, come at me, bro.
I don't care. You guys cannot talk to me in the lunchroom.
I'm going to keep this job. And my wonderful new wife, who I met at IHOP, really likes gold bars and fancy cars.
And I beat the rap last time. So who cares? I mean, this is what Donald Trump has done to our politics.
He is the perfect mentor. If you have lost all sense of shame and you're willing to keep lying and you're not embarrassed, you keep coming to work every day and running down the halls with the scrums of reporters.
A lot of these people, they last through these scams. I think the journalism schools need to adapt.
Maybe you need to have a course in how do you deal with people who are utterly without shame, right? Because most of us are not prepared to do that. You know, it's like, okay, have a course.
What do you do when you're dealing with a pathological liar? How do you deal with that? How do you talk to that person? How do you cope with or cover somebody who has absolutely no shame and maybe not always then put the word defiant in the headline? Maybe we had to come up with different words for this. I think that being a political observer these days used to be you had to know history, write a little sociology.
Now I think we all need degrees in psychology or something. I agree.
Psychology and pharmacology. I agree, Charlie.
I mean, when I watch Vivek Ramaswamy, what I see is that he, and he's smart, he has watched Trump and he's realized from Trump and Tucker and others that you can keep saying things that aren't true. And it's a sign of toughness now.
It's a sign of strength. Remember,

facts are so 30 years ago in their mind. It's all about your feelings.
And when you're a Trump supporter watching Vivek, and you find out that he was fact checked, and he was contradicted,

they confront him on stage, you're like, oh, he might be sort of fudging some of this. And he

might have lied and written in a book that January 6th was bad. But like, I love the way he makes me feel.
And he just keeps saying what I want and lying. And I think lying is now macho.
There are also the insults and some of the most extreme positions, you know, I mean, there is that, you know, back and forth about who's more brutal, like, you know, I, I will build a wall on the on the border. Well, no, I will put razor blades on top of the wall.
I will shoot anyone who crosses the line stone cold dead. Then what's the next? No, no, no.
I will have them drawn and quartered. I mean, there is that brutality.
The other thing that Vivek has learned is have interesting hair or wild hair. You see him last night? I mean, he's like, it's up there and he figures, okay, this is one of the things.
I have to put on a show like Donald Trump. I have to have really wild hair like Donald Trump.
And I have to bullshit as fast as possible like Donald Trump. But you know what? Going back to that first debate, remember this was supposed to be the breakout for Vivek.
He did not capitalize on it. It did not happen for him because he was not really ready for that street.
He steps out of the bubble and he was exposed over and over again. This guy is a fabulous, he's a fake, he's a phony.
And so you look back at all of the first debate buzz about Vivek and the only one who came out better other than Donald Trump was, was Nikki Haley haley actually we're back to the debate so but

vivek in a post-trump world is a good replacement for trump i mean i don't think he goes away

if trump eats the poison cheeseburger so i think that again he knows what the base wants

and they don't want consistency and they they like that he stood up and said i would not give

birthright citizenship to myself they're in fuego when they listen to they love this shit

Let's go. and they they like that he stood up and said i would not give birthright citizenship to myself they're in fuego when they listen they love this shit and so i i think that there he has more shelf life later on and he was never running for president he wants a cabinet position and he started a podcast so the guy is really smart and it's like tucker it's like you can be inconsistent as long as you say it with your nostrils flaring and like really fast and really fired up.
Like people just love that shit. It's about feelings now.
Okay. So there's a video that's circulating of Donald Trump up in Michigan and he's mocking these candidates.
They're all running for a job. They want a position in the cabinet or they want to be vice president.
And then he has like a throwaway where he says, you see anybody up there that would be VP quality? I don't. So some people are interpreting that as basically saying, yeah, nobody on that stage is going to be vice president, which I think is worth mentioning because I think there was a time when you thought that maybe, you know, this was going to be kind of an audition.
Maybe Tim Scott still thinks that, but I think people are forgetting that Donald Trump still has a little bit of Mike Pence freak out. Let me explain that.
In 2016, one of the more conventional things he did was pick Mike Pence, the governor of Indiana, you know, heartthrob of the evangelicals to put on his ticket. Kind of a conventional political decision to balance himself out.
But what he realized in the last four years is the vice president is the one position in his administration he cannot fire. He can't get rid of his vice president.
And the moment he is elected, if he's elected in 2024, the moment he's elected, he becomes a lame duck president. Now, I don't think he thinks of it that way.
And I don't think he would intend to be a lame duck president. That's a different story, which means that the vice president, he has to be looking over his shoulder saying, do I want somebody really strong? Do I want somebody who's going to be an independent power source? Am I going to want somebody who immediately is going to be the heir apparent? Because you know how that goes, that once people decide that you are the lame duck, and this is the coming power.
So we haven't gotten into the whole Trump VP thing. But I think that, first of all, that anybody that ever ran against him, probably not.
But also, anyone who has their own independent appeal or constituency, or is a particularly strong person, would be a threat. And I don't think that Donald Trump's going to go that way this is a good point and i realized it last night and i was so happy because my biggest fear was he was going to pick nicky haley or tim scott and i believe if he did he would really win quite easily really and so i'm so happy that he's not going to because he does not want to be upstaged by her, which is very clear.
And I think Kristi Noem has really kept a low profile. And she has not tried to be on every Sunday show.
And she's not, you know, the it girl online. And now she's scandalized by her affair with Corey Lewandowski.
She's kind of perfect, right? She's like got the hair extensions. And's like super buff.
And she actually, I don't know. Do you think you think that that stripping Corey makes her perfect? It makes her more subdued.
And she's less of a threat that she'll try to stand out and have her own power center as you described. I think he's going to try to pick someone who's not a total joke and has some executive experience, but you can't pick Kim Reynolds now.
I don't know. It's interesting, but I am so relieved that he's talked himself out of Nikki Haley and Tim Scott, because I think it would be a huge electoral benefit.
You know who he wants to pick, don't you? And again, we're going into this weird world of Donald Trump's mind. I think, you know, maybe he's going to end up with Elise Stefanik, although I think he's going to look at her and go, can I really trust her? I think he would like somebody like a Carrie Lake, but you know, she's got her own thing.
You know who he'd really like though? Marjorie Taylor Greene. No, no.
In his mind, he wants Don Jr. or Ivanka.
He wants the dynasty. Yeah.
He knows that it's Trump forever. Perfect.
And if it's a member of his family, it will be Trump forever. That's what he wants.
Now, whether he's actually going to do that, I don't know. You're so right.
You're so right. So somebody is going to have to either talk him out of it, or he's going to say, look, whoever I pick immediately becomes the front runner in 2028.
I do not want to go off into the sunset. I need somebody who's going to have my back.
And by the way, I mean, in this context, Kennedy's, Bush's, Clinton's, you have this around the world. I mean, the Marcos's in the Philippines, it is not unknown to have these kind of family dynasties.
And so Donald Trump obviously is going to go through that thought process. This is genius, Charlie, because it's true that if you think about all he's been through and what everyone has worked for him has said about him, think about everyone around him in the final days, they've all trashed him except for Jeff Clark and Peter Navarro.

So I can't remember if Navarro was still working for the White House at that point.

Whatever.

He was insignificant.

He was like a fake advisor.

But he was like an instrumental coup person.

I mean, they've all said awful things.

And so really, you make a great point. Any vice president has the potential to go rogue.
Right. No one is to be trusted.
OK, I mean, I think one of the worst VP choices of all time in retrospect was Sarah Palin by the late lamented John McCain, who I'm sure came to regret that at a certain point. But remember how that was the game change and everything where suddenly all the focus was on, oh, she's the hot new thing, and there was all this attention.
Donald Trump could not stand to have the spotlight shifted. John McCain was okay with that.
He was okay. Let them look at Sarah Palin.
It was terrible and terrible. I cannot imagine him having the ego.
Okay, I want to talk about your piece, your piece today, because it is extremely interesting. And I have been associated with the pro-life movement for many, many years.
And it is really interesting watching their response now, the organized pro-life movement's response to Donald Trump, who's decided that they are a liability. I mean, he rode them to the presidency.
He can claim that he was the one who got Roe overturned, but he is now aggressively throwing them under the bus, saying that it's just terrible that they push for these six-week bans. So tell me about their reaction and why, with his attack, why they're just rolling over.
I think there was a time back in the winter after his initial comments about how all the midterm disappointment was a result of abortion. Of course, not the crazy candidates that he endorsed and who ran for significant positions like governors of swing state.
But he wasn't totally wrong about this, right? But he wasn't totally wrong. But they did not like that.

And they felt insulted because it was very direct. So they think Ron DeSantis is on the rise.
Tim Alberto writes this amazing piece in March in the Atlantic about how he had really fallen out of favor with evangelicals over this issue. He was on this podcast talking about that.
And literally by May, they're buckling by May because they saw what you and I saw in April, which was Donald Trump was inevitable. That was before Ron DeSantis was even a candidate.
So you can tell in their comments, they're trying to say, we're talking about the ban with him. They want a ban, federal legislation.
A national ban. He is basically, for all intents and purposes, to say we're talking about the ban with him they want to ban federal legislation a national day is basically for all intents purposes saying no and he's constantly basically saying i'm the most pro-life president ever without me you guys would be nowhere we got rid of roe to try to say to the voters you've got what you asked for and you've got enough right i know about winning elections and you're just going to have to take this from me.
And the leaders have basically said, and I quote some of them in the piece, yeah, like we're going to non-deal with this right now, because they know next spring when he's the presumptive nominee that they will be supporting him. And so there's really, there's no purchase in like trashing him now and picking a fight.
And he may come around. He may come around to a six-week ban at some point.
But I do think the Democrats ought to realize that with all the craziness going on, he is pivoting while DeSantis has decided, his theory was, I'm going to pivot as hard right as possible. Weirdly, and some people are going to be shocked by this,

Donald Trump is moderating his position

on issues like this. I don't think

he goes to a six-week ban. Yeah.

Ever. Even after he's

re-elected. I don't even think he'll care

then, Charlie. He doesn't care.

No, no, no, he doesn't care.

But the way he's intimidated them,

he actually said that

these pro-life groups are kind of like a business. He's basically, of course, his projection on his part because everything is a grift.
And instead of pushing back on that, these pro-life groups are going, okay, do not piss him off, right? They're going to fold 10, and they really kind of already have. I mean, you can see dating back a few months to things that they've said.
And so it's all out all out there i mean i thought last night more candidates would try to take advantage of this opening yeah and it was like like they know it's over yeah and that there was nothing to really there was nothing to drive a wedge between and so i think ronda santis will say it a few places you know but they didn't want to grab the mic last night and make that you know they weren't going to make that the hill to die on because also ronda santis is avoiding saying that he if he was president would back a 15-week ban he wants it both ways as well so it is really amazing but the pro-life leadership and i say this in the piece and I know I thought of you a lot when I was writing it, Charlie.

It's hard to dump on them this directly.

But if a national ban was the priority, they would have already endorsed Tim Scott or Mike Pence. This may sound like a digression, but leaving aside the six weeks versus 15 weeks, I think the more telling moment this week was when Republicans, you know, desperate to throw some spaghetti up against the wall on the budget, decided to cut one safety net program after another.
Okay, so pro-life ought to mean more than just abortion. It ought to mean being in favor of children, families, mothers, life.
There was a moment where when the dog caught the bus and they overturned Roe, was, okay, will the pro-life movement now pivot to supporting, making it easier for mothers to have children out of wedlock, low-income mothers to create an environment where children can thrive and families can thrive? Are we going to see that more seamless fabric of life approach? The answer is decisively no, since they're in the business of cutting one program after another. And I think this is one of the critiques of the pro-life movement that has been annoying to them for many years, that they were only pro-life up until the moment of birth.
They had 50 years to come up with a persuasive answer or a credible answer to that. They failed to do it.
And now it's like they're not even trying. They're not even making an effort.
I have heard you describe your work in this space. And I feel so naive that after the June 24th, 2022 decision comes out and a bomb goes off in this country, they had months until a midterm election that I guess they thought was in the bag.

I guess they thought it was going to be such a red tsunami.

They didn't need to deal with this.

But I was convinced that they would come up with pro-family, pro-child, pro-women measures to go and sell to try to counter the anger that was clearly coming from Democrats and independents and some pro-choice Republicans and that it was going to result in energy at the polls. I thought for sure they would protect themselves, even cynically, not even out of principle, nothing.
It was absolutely stunning. No one has come up.
I mean, I think, you know, Mitt Romney has some safety net, you know, programs that he's been championing for a while now. And child credits.
Yeah. And he gets no audience with this party for it.
No one was interested in coming up with a response about how they were going to ease this transition and welcome children into this world under very, very trying circumstances who might have been unwanted and make space in this country. It continues to amaze me.
Okay, one last question. I want to get your reaction.
Joe Biden on the picket line for the UAW strikers up in Michigan. First time a United States, sitting United States president's ever been on the picket line.
I mean, the political calculation is obvious. He is not ceding the ground of the working class to Donald Trump.
Donald Trump is up there. He is trying to go after the blue collar vote as well.
So give me your sense of the risk reward here. Joe Biden on the picket line.
It's a strike. Donald Trump trying to play his populist card there.
How do you see it playing out? I mean, I think that Biden, it was a bold move, but I think on balance he had to do it because he's bleeding support from working class voters and unions are not as powerful as they once were and the membership is largely supportive of Donald Trump when the leadership is not so it's all been diluted as an electoral force that could help Joe Biden next year then Then, you know, you have Donald Trump, who his supporters know, everyone in that room last night, and most of them were not striking. They knew that he was muddying the issue.
They knew that when he talks about, you know, the EV transition, he just pretends all their jobs are going to China and they're going to get screwed. He did say I support the strikers having increased wages, but he wasn't taking their side.
And so he was, again, trying to have it both ways and such and such filibuster, fudge, fudge, filibuster, which is his great gift and his supporters buy it. But it is a vulnerability for Joe Biden in that those jobs in the EV transition are going to be lost.
Union jobs. It's a tough issue for the Democratic coalition, even though the environmentalists are back.
There is tension there. Yeah.
And so I think that he in his situation, I feel like he kind of had no choice but to go do that. Well, it was a bold move.
And I agree with your take on all of this. I mean, there is the risk and it is there, you know, aligning himself with the union if the strike gets messy.
But on the other hand, I think it was a, an important announcement that I am going to fight for the working class vote. You know, I am not going to give that up, which by the way is also, maybe he didn't have a choice because if you don't fight for the working class vote, you're going to have a very, very hard time in Pennsylvania, in Michigan, in Wisconsin, all the states that are going to decide this.
So it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I also think that they have to double down on going after this fake populism of Donald Trump, the idea that Donald Trump, the guy who screws over his employees, doesn't pay his contractors, you know, is a tax cheat, et cetera, that that somehow he is a champion of the working man.
It's sort of like the absurdity of thinking that Donald Trump is a champion of the military, that he actually has respect for the men and women in the military. It's bullshit, as is the notion that somehow he is the law and order candidate, while he's also running with pledges to pardon many of the January 6th rioters who attacked and beat and tased cops.
So they need to go after those points. You know, bullshit that he supports the military, bullshit that he supports the police, and bullshit that he supports a blue collar worker.
So, hey, strap in for the next year and a half, AB. That's good advice, though, Charlie, and I hope they will take it.
They really are bleeding support from those people and they cannot win this election with college graduates alone. And I think that if Biden can't do it, there are plenty of people in the party that can talk about Trump's record with the auto workers.
You know, there are other people who can articulate that. So we'll see if they take their advice.
One more item of free advice. The moment that the Republicans shut down the government, Democratic surrogates need to be at the border saying, look what Republicans have done shutting down so many of these programs that are keeping our country secure.
Don't concede that issue as well. It's very clear that Kevin McCarthy and the Republicans are all in on this issue of immigration and border security, and yet they cannot be allowed to shut down the government at the same time claiming they are the party of border security.
So again, this is all free. Take it for what it's worth.
Even Mitch McConnell was trying to give him that advice on the Senate floor yesterday. Exactly.
And of course, he's the last person that they listened to. They listened to him less than they listened to Chuck Schumer, but he was making a salient point.
And I agree with you. I think immigration is really a terrible liability right now for the Democrats heading into next year.
And that is a good moment to sort of own it and say, look what they're doing. If they thought it was so important, they wouldn't be defunding at this moment.
And I don't expect them to take advice from me necessarily. A.B.
Stoddard, thank you so much for joining me. A.B., of course, is the newest member of the Bulwark staff.
Once again, welcome. Welcome to the team.
Thank you, Charlie. It's really fun to be with you again post-debate.