Bakari Sellers: The Danger of RFK Jr.

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Hello, and welcome to the Bullworks Podcast.

I'm your host, Tim Miller.

Delighted to welcome back.

It's been a minute.

He's a CNN political analyst and attorney.

He's written a bunch of books.

The latest one was The Moment: Thoughts on the Race Reckoning That Wasn't and How We All Can Move Forward Now.

That's a heavy question.

It's Bakari Sellers.

How you doing, man?

I'm doing well.

It's always good to be with you.

I hope you're doing well.

Man, in my little life here, you know, my family, New Orleans, life is good.

Outside of my, the bulwark is good.

Outside of my bubble, that's out of my control, man.

That's not nothing.

I'm going to be in New Orleans.

I'm going to be in New Orleans coming up.

I'm coming down to help out one of my good friends, Helena Morena, be the next.

Oh, you're helping out Helena.

You named after the last time on this podcast.

I got my man Royce Duplessis is also in the race state center.

Yeah, good guy.

We've got two good candidates for mayor down here.

Either one of them will be a big upgrade over our current mayor who just gave up on the job.

A fun woman.

Great.

I mean, if I want to go down to Frenchman Street, have a couple drinks and like get low with somebody, like Mayor Cantrell is towards the top of the list.

But like the mayoring job of mayor kind of

got kind of bored with that.

Mayor's a tough job.

Mayor is a very tough job.

And it's even tougher in a city like New Orleans.

But Elena's going to be good.

So I'm supporting her.

I'm going to come down there and particularly on election night, try to celebrate that race with her.

All right.

Well, holler at me.

Well, we'll see you in person, hopefully.

Let's get to the news.

I guess we got to start with.

I was thinking about this because it's such a competitive category, but I think that the press conference of the White House yesterday was actually the craziest press conference we've had in the first nine months of the administration.

A lot of competitive, you know, a lot of potential nominees there.

I mean, the press conference of Zelensky was maybe the most offensive to me, the most maddening, but just like pure, like Veepish, the most Veepish press conference we've had.

I think it was yesterday.

It was Donald Trump and RFK Jr.

and some others making some announcements about what they've discovered or they think they've discovered about autism.

They are pinning the blame on Tylenol.

And I want to play one clip in particular that just shows you

how seriously Donald Trump took the kind of research on this topic before the press conference came out.

Effective immediately, the FDA will be notifying physicians that the use of

acetyl, well, let's see how we say that.

Acetaminophen.

Acetaminophen.

Is that okay?

Which is basically commonly known as Tylenol.

Got no faith in medicine.

Acetaminophen.

There you go.

You'd think that if your whole press conference was about how we found this one ingredient that is causing autism, that you would have, like, I don't know, said it once before.

But that's not how our president rolls.

Not at all.

And I think that, you know,

part of the inherent danger of this administration has been the danger around RFK.

And, you know, RFK, his pseudoscience, his kind of lack of common sense, his past life, his life experiences, to sum it up, he's just a wild boy.

And I'm not sure that that's someone you want in that position of power that they're in, where they govern the health of millions of Americans, particularly our youngest and most vulnerable.

Tylenol came on the scene about 1955, thereabouts.

Somebody will correct me on that, I'm sure.

And autism was discovered in, you know, the 19 teens.

So

I'm interested if there are any notable legitimate studies about this correlation between the two.

But I do think that if you look at other things which cause serious deaths in this country, particularly those amongst youth, let's have a discussion about gun violence and,

you know,

what are causing those guns or or childhood suicides or teenage suicides to be specific i i just i find this and the the triumvirate for lack of a better term of rfk donald trump and dr oz is i want to laugh at it but it's inherently scary to have those three kind of over our medical devices in this country I like that you pretended like you didn't know the year there, 1955.

I Googled it.

You had it right.

You nailed it right on the top.

No false modesty on the board podcast.

I do wonder, you mentioned that RFK is a real danger here.

Do you have to take any responsibility for that?

I do get told a lot by commenters from time to time that I own all of this, even though I've been against Trump for 10 years, you know, because of my past, my Republican past.

But so by that, say, by the kind of transitive property, like, do you take any ownership over RFK, you know, trying to get rid of the vaccine schedule?

No, we traded that Kennedy a long time ago.

They're Kennedys we want.

Most of them we want.

Joey.

I don't know.

You guys are both Democratic trial attorneys, though.

You know,

there's something there.

Yeah.

Have you ever signed a brief with him?

I don't think so.

Jesus, let me pull that up and look and see.

I did not.

I have never ridden around with a bear in my trunk.

I've never,

never done

heroon.

It's called.

I haven't had any insects or parasites eating my brain or anything like that.

I just think that we've lived a different lifestyle.

Yeah.

Never did heroin either.

Scared of needles, thank God.

One of the great gifts the Lord gave me was fear of needles.

To your point about that, the studies here, just for the interest of public information.

Yale School of Public Health has said that frequent or prolonged use of acetaminophen has been associated with some disorders, but researchers have found no proof that it causes autism.

There was a recent Harvard study that found a slightly increased chance of autism for women who took down all right pregnant, but Harvard School of Public Health dean said it was possibly a causal relationship and more study was needed.

There have been other studies that have shown some other things with even more association that they didn't mention at the press conference.

One, I just want to throw out there for you is a study that shows that old sperm causes autism.

We've

had a lot of older men

having babies with younger women recently, and that that geriatric sperm might might not,

you know, might not be the healthiest.

I'm not saying that, but I do think it's interesting that RFK and Donald Trump, of all people,

didn't choose that.

You know, out of all the studies out there in the literature, that wasn't the one that they identified, I think.

Well, I mean, your producers didn't do a great job because of the simple fact that I'm not qualified to talk about this.

I'm on year seven of my sperm no longer working.

So, congratulations.

And I'm like

beyond the reverse.

God, that's got to be a level of freedom.

Seven years of knowing it doesn't work.

Listen, you go put your go put your legs up in the stirrups every now and then, those cold stirrups on your ankles.

I brought my wife in and they cauterized it.

So you had the smell of it.

But, you know, I am not qualified to talk on this topic topic because i went in i went and did my duty a few years ago next time i'll just start quizzing all guests on

whether they've gotten sick before i start bringing out topics there you go they're kind of i guess related just in the sense of where their mind is these men trump and rfk

one of the other things that came up again this press game was supposed to be about their alleged reveal, which we're joking about it, but it's also like scary and fucking actually cruel and mean.

When I was thinking about press conferences, though, we forgot the one that he was sitting across from the, I forget which president of the African country it was.

And he was in South Africa.

Was it South Africa?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

He just insulted the hell out of them while they were sitting there.

Yeah, he started blaming his people for like a murder, for murdering people.

Murdering white folk.

Yes,

yeah.

So, but yeah,

that goes up there with Zelensky, but please continue.

Yeah, no, I was just saying that it is, it's fucking cruel.

Like the mother, like imagine if you have a kid with autism and like you loving that kid and you want to make sure you did everything right.

And then you got the president up there being like, well, it was your fault, ma.

You couldn't deal with the pain of pregnancy.

You took a time.

It's just, it's sick.

Like, you know, not that these guys ever actually think about anything like that, but in addition to the irresponsibility, there's like a level of cruelty to it that is.

Yeah.

And the question was asked, you know, what should, what should pregnant mothers do?

And I mean, he was like, tough it out.

Yeah.

Like, dude,

like, you're one of the weakest men we know physically.

I mean, I don't understand.

Women, women giving birth is

probably the strongest strongest exercise of the human being that you'll ever have.

I mean, that is just some, I mean, they literally get an inch near death.

Like, I know, you know, the story of my wife.

She nearly died in childbirth.

She

lost seven units of blood when she was birthing the twins.

And so it's fascinating.

And to have, you know, these kind of old, old geriatric men up there, you know, telling women again.

what they can and can't do with their bodies is is beyond fascinating.

With their soft hands.

I always want to we'll do this just for the YouTube.

I like to give this to the YouTube viewers once every kind of quarter, which is Trump getting scared of the eagle.

That's the bald eagle.

That's one of my favorite little videos.

He's just, ah, it's like, Ellie's Ellie, he's going to get bit by the beak.

Anyway, one other thing on this, he went down a couple of other sidetracks, obviously.

And I'm not going to play all the audio.

I did something with Sam Stein yesterday.

Folks can listen to that.

But, you know, talking about the MMR vaccine.

He's talking about all this other stuff.

Trump also started riffing on the Hep B vaccine.

And he says this: he goes, Hep B is a sexually transmitted disease, so there's no reason to give that vacc to the baby.

Maybe we start giving it to the girls when they're 12.

Now, there are a couple problems with that.

Number one, the reason you give a baby the Hep B vaccine is in case the mother has Hep B and you're protecting the baby from the mother.

And number two is in his construct, he's like, you know, when we need to start giving it to the girls as an STD vaccine is at the age of 12.

You know, given all the Epstein chatter, I felt like that was an interesting year to choose, 12.

Yeah, no, between that and the New York Times story today on Elon Musk's father.

That's just a horrifying story, to be honest, Elon Musk's father's story.

I had to stop reading it.

It was so gross.

Yeah, I, you know, in the work that I do sometimes and in between, I don't really, it just, it, it kind of, it freaks me out, um, to say the least.

But there are some untoward things that that White House should probably stay away from.

And I, all of this this is a distraction from releasing the actual files.

I mean, I thought that your good friend Cash Patel was going to, for day one, he and Pam Bondi were going to,

weren't you at the White House holding up the notebook?

They didn't give you one of the notebooks?

No, I wasn't one of the influencers that gave that binder to.

Yeah, no, that was DC Draino, I think, and the Libs a TikTok lady.

It's not really my notebook.

They don't hang out with you.

Okay.

Yeah, no.

Well, anyway,

they should release where Trump has mentioned the Epstein files.

And I guess I'm not saying that

this is is evidence per se, but it is noteworthy that Trump thinks that 12 would be the age that girls should start getting vaccines for sexually transmitted diseases.

You know, the funny part about it is I missed that completely.

Covering Trump, and I don't want to say that, because when I say covering, people mistake that for journalism, and I'm not.

I have a huge respect for journalists.

I get paid for my opinion.

But even giving commentary during the era of Trump, I think I forgot how just

stupid this shit all is.

Like, you're drinking out of a fire hose just like every day.

I mean, I didn't even catch that part of the, you were so dumbfounded by the, by the sentence he said before.

And the whole press conference was crazy.

Yeah.

I mean, like, there was one where there was too much water in the vaccines.

The babies can't take it.

I mean, it was just totally, it was insane.

It's like, it was a total, it was like Cliff Clavin from Cheers.

We're going to, I'm going to do, you know, elder millennial reference.

That's probably five Gen X even.

You know, just at the end of the bar, but it's just, he's the president and he just starts popping out.

He's like, hey, hey, did you guys know?

You know, my old lady told me that you can't give the vaccine to the kids because the water.

There's too much water in the

yesterday.

He also went down a path

where he was talking about the Amish community and he was quoting like

Theo Vaughn's podcast.

I don't know.

Yeah, right.

And I was just like, about how the Amish jump kid ought to.

I was like, what?

Like, I don't think that's right.

What world are we living in?

And I'm pretty certain that's not right.

But like, what world are we living in?

And I love Theo Vaughn, by the way.

I want to go on his show one day.

Same.

I feel partially responsible for this because I've got a mutual buddy with Theo.

Shout out to him.

He's a listener.

And I sent him a text and I was like, you know, I watched the Amish kid podcast that Theo did.

Folks don't know what we're talking about here, Theo Vaughn is like one of these bro podcasters.

And he usually has hilarious.

Now

you have to be.

He usually has on comedians and stuff.

And then sometimes he just has weird stuff on it.

He had this Amish kid on.

He started asking him like, what was life like as an Amish kid?

And it was like really funny.

I said this to my friend, I was like, send this to Theo and tell him I want more of this, fewer interviews where he talks to JD Vance, right?

Because, like, this man is not equipped to interview JD Vance, right?

Because he'll ask him a question, and then JD will just lie through his fucking teeth.

And like, Theo doesn't know enough to push back, it was just fine, God love him.

I was like, He's very well equipped to ask an Amish kid whether they've got ADHD in Pennsylvania.

Like, that's that's like I was like, that's his wheelhouse.

Like, that's deep in him.

And that's true, that would be the president's wheelhouse, too, not telling women what to do during pregnancy.

You'd also don't expect that podcast to be picked up and being asked and quoted in a presidential press conference on a very, very landmark issue, such as autism in Talena.

You don't.

But here's, this is, this is the fucking real world that we're in.

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Speaking of that, Jimmy Kimmel, we got a lot of Jimmy Kimmel news since we last at the pod.

We got a moment yesterday where free speech was alive and well.

Bob Iger actually nutted up for once, a little better late than never, I guess, and said he's going to bring Jimmy back on the air.

That's great.

He's going to be on air tonight, folks who are interested in that.

What has probably happened since, though, has been a little more discouraging.

And I think that there are some things that have happened this morning that are going to really be where the rubber meets the road on this issue.

So Sinclair said last night that they're preempting Jimmy Kimmel now

unless he donates to Turning Point USA.

This is bad and ridiculous, but we've been living in this world where Sinclair does like local news Fox for quite a while now, and that's a real problem.

Next, though, we have this Next Star, which is the biggest of the ABC affiliates.

They just said right before we started taping that they are also going to continue to preempt the show and their 28 ABC affiliates, pending assurance that all parties are committed to fostering.

And I'm not even going to read their bullshit statement.

So like, here's the thing.

Next star wants to be able to merge with Tegna and have, you know, a market share that's bigger than what's allowed currently by the rules.

So they need the FCC to approve it.

And so what we have here is like a straight free speech issue where Jimmy is going to still be silenced on, if you had Sinclair plus Nextstar, about 60 of the ABC affiliates.

So there's a free speech issue there.

57, I think.

Yeah, but there's also on top of that, just this straight corruption issue that we're seeing across this Trump administration, you know, where these guys are like bullying companies to do what they want if they're going to get what,

you know, if they are going to get theirs from the government.

So I don't know.

What do you make of all this?

So, yeah, I mean, I think that there's always, with Donald Trump, one of the things that

We oftentimes don't see the forest for the trees.

Because as much as we want to see the hate and the cruelty, we oftentimes miss the business motive that is behind a lot of the decisions that he makes.

Most of them are for some, you know, purely profit.

You know, the $100,000 cart that they're selling now?

I mean, just those

H1B visas.

It would make Terry McCullough proud.

That was a long joke from a while ago.

That's that joke.

Yeah, we're a long way to the fucking Lincoln bedroom.

You know, the Lincoln bedroom scandal, which I was a Republican, I was a child then, actually, so whatever, but which I was against at the time.

Like, I don't think that makes it that much better, but they were donating this to the DNC, right?

They're donating it to the political organization.

Like, the Trump's kids, like, it's Trump's kids and Trump's family and Witcoff's family.

It's like, and Tom Oman's own himself.

Like, these guys are like just taking straight cash bribes.

Like, it's a third world banana republic.

It is a category difference a little bit from the Lincoln bedroom.

Huge, huge.

So, anyway, so I think the first thing is you have to look at the business motive.

You have to look at Brandon Brandon Carr being a little bit out of his depth.

But, you know, I would still bet dollars to don us today that he approves that merger because of the actions of Nexstar.

And so that's first.

The second thing is you have this issue of free speech.

And, you know, five years ago, Democrats were going down this path where people were getting canceled because of their ignorance.

And I, you know, I kind of hated that.

I mean, I don't think you can foster good dialogue or teach people anything if you're canceling them because of simply things they don't know or the ignorant statements they make um

but now you are having the the total inverse of that and republicans are taking pride megan kelly you know she sends out i think you got into it with her yesterday didn't you oh yeah oh yeah oh look at that i just

i'm to blame it's my my one of my people killed charlie i guess because uh we're both white and and thank trans kind of sorted though y'all do have a similar

look

yeah i need to go look at the stairway picture i mean he's a a lot younger than me, so I am keeping it.

I am keeping it tight.

You are.

I mean, you're

and then you are doing that.

Are you doing Botox?

Hell no.

No, man.

This is natural.

This is unnatural.

This is all natural.

This is on natural

drinking water.

If you're into that, you know, I've got a couple of friends who are Botox practitioners.

What do you say?

If you're selling Botox slanging, I've got a couple of old slang and Botox

in my life, so nothing is.

Not for me.

So anyway, free speech being under attack.

And then the last thing is, you know, Jimmy Kimmel, I thought that, you know,

I'm not sure what he said that was so like offensive.

I've missed that.

I've listened to the entire kind of rant and I missed the part where people took offense.

I mean, I've said this before on CNN.

I'm concerned where we lost the nuance that we can say that we are bore and any type of political violence or assassinations.

And you feel bad for Erica Kirk.

I was listening to T.D.

Jakes yesterday and you feel bad for his kids.

And we've gotten away from actually having that kind of heartbeat where you understand that he was a husband and a father.

But you can also, in the same, you know, sentence, be very critical about the way that he talked about black people or the very critical about the way that he talked about trans folk or the racism or bigotry or, you know, all of those things that were more than just innuendo or thoughts.

If you go back and listen to his show, and it's funny because you have this kind of generic framework tweets.

I don't know if you've seen them circulate where they're like, I sat for hours and watched all of Charlie Kerr's videos and he was not racist or bigot.

And it's like everybody's retweeting the same thing.

I just think as a country,

he was a complicated individual.

And we have to be able to have complex and complicated thoughts as we talk about folk.

And you just don't sanitize them because they die.

Yeah, I agree with that.

And the Jimmy thing, like...

It was technically not true, but like, okay.

Number one, he's a comedian.

Lots of people said technically not true things.

Going out and correcting would have been totally fine.

Saying if you you're whatever TPUSA or whatever JD Vance or the president wanted to be like, Jimmy said this joke, you know, it's not like the president's been above live tweeting TV and he loves doing that.

He could, he could have just done that.

That'd be totally appropriate in the discourse, you know, and those guys said way crazier shit than Kimmel said.

I mean, JD Vance was like, there was a secret cabal of people that funded the assassination.

I mean, like, that's a direct quote, but that was essentially what he said.

And his comment was way crazier than what Kimmel said.

And not only that, but you know, for me, I'm like old enough to remember like the list of Fox News hosts that repeatedly lied about the election.

I mean, they sent text messages out saying one thing and came on TV and repeatedly lied.

Or Paul Pelosi, or you could go down the list.

I mean, Donald Trump Jr.

had a picture of underwear and a hammer after Paul Pelosi was nearly murdered in his home.

Sick.

Sick.

So I don't, you know, I just think that the conversations we're having right now, I just, I probably shouldn't feel like this, but I just throw up my hands sometimes and just say, I don't, I don't know.

I can press it.

I did peers yesterday.

Why the fuck did you do that?

Here's why.

I'm about to tell you why, because I didn't want to do it.

I didn't want to.

And I say no most of the time.

But for this exact reason you said, I was like, I feel like people have been insane in the last week and a half.

And they don't broke any of nuance that what you're talking about.

And I knew that what he wanted was to have one of these shows where there are liberals.

They're like, Charlie Kirk is a transphobe and like you, what you put out in the world, you get back and all this kind of stuff, which I just feel very uncomfortable with I'm fine with saying what you just said like we should be honored honest about his views and he was against gay adoption doesn't think my family should exist so I don't like don't love Charlie Kirk's ideology but like

you know I mean like some of the some of the you know you know what they wanted they wanted that like kind of some version of he deserved it versus the you know the folks on the other side being like all the liberals are murderers and wanted they want them dead and the left has gone crazy and the left is responsible for this and I just like I felt like there's value to to put out into the world right now.

Actually, no, like there are a lot of bad pundits out there and a lot of people out there that give shitty views and say things that are overwrought or hyperbole or false.

And none of them are responsible for this.

Like,

we can't be in this place, man.

We have to be able to live in a world where we debate and fight and you deal with people that sometimes are bad faith and you do so in the public square and you don't get to a place where like people start to say, okay, well, your words are responsible for that assassination.

Because then we go down to a really dark place, man, because there are a lot of bad words out there.

We got a lot of guns in this country.

And I don't think you want to live in a country where, where people start to take that seriously.

And so anyway, that's why I went on and did it.

Probably in vain, but like.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's peers.

You're never going to change him.

Yeah.

And he's just a, you know, kind of weird cat.

No, they're all weird, no doubt.

Like I said, probably in vain, but I just was like, I don't know, man.

Somebody's got to, I don't know.

I felt compelled to get that out into the world.

I'm glad you did it.

I mean, I looked at the interview he did with my good friend Don Lemon the other day, and I was just like.

I couldn't even watch most of that.

I also turned that on.

I was like, this is too much to kill.

It just went off.

It went off the fucking rails.

Yeah, I don't watch.

I can't.

I'm going to give it

to.

We're giving him too much time.

I did that for his audience, not for mine.

I'm sorry, folks.

You should have fast-forwarded through all that.

Hey, everybody.

You've probably heard me mention that the bulwark is headed back on the road this fall, but we've got some big updates that I want you to hear.

First, most importantly, we are adding a show in Toronto.

I told you, Canadians, I was doing my best to make it happen.

I'm so thrilled by the response we've had from our Canadian friends and wanted to make sure if you wanted to be able to come, you could.

So, we added a matinee, a brunch show, whatever you want to call it.

Maybe a drag brunch.

Don't tell JD Vance the next day.

No promises on drag queens there, but you know, maybe the spirit of a drag brunch.

And so, that will be Saturday the 27th.

Go to thebulwark.com/slash events to get all the details and to get your tickets for that encore show in Toronto.

Also, New York, that's going to sell out here any minute.

So if you want to see us in New York on October 11th, get your tickets ASAP.

There's still a bunch of tickets left for DC on October 8th, but we've got some exciting guest announcements coming soon.

So if you're interested in coming to DC, get on that as well.

All of the information available at thebulwark.com slash events.

It's me, Sarah, and Sam up in Toronto.

Me, Sarah and JVL and some of our other Bulwark friends and a special guest in Washington, D.C.

Look forward to seeing you all out on the road.

We'll catch you soon.

Get those tickets now.

I want to get to Democrat stuff, but just two other things really quick on this administration.

The Homan thing, and we've been talking about corruption a little bit, but

I want you to put your legal hat on in addition to your politics hat on.

And Guy took 50 grand in a kava bag.

Press Secretary yesterday goes out and says he never took it.

That's a smear.

Then I was interesting to note that Tom Holman then went on Laura Ingram last night.

And when she asked him about it, he never said he didn't take it.

No, he said he didn't do anything illegal.

He didn't do anything illegal, which to me is an admission.

But you hear about this more than I do.

What do you think?

One, I love Kava.

Kava's a fucking great restaurant.

A little slot bowl.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'd love it.

I absolutely love it.

I mean, and I just, you know, I think that that's indicative of the neighborhood they were in where this guy decided to pay.

I also have a hard and fast

because kavas aren't everywhere.

So this deal didn't go down in the hood.

Okay.

I'm just

deducing all the things.

They got any comments in the Rio Grande Valley?

I'm sorry.

I don't know if I need to be smearing our good friends in Macau.

And I don't know if Kavas get it down there yet.

I have a rule against taking 50,000 in cash, like in a bag, a plastic bag or anything like that.

It was just, I mean,

you know, checks, you know, that's a lot cleaner than getting 50 grand in a bag of cash.

The other thing is, I'm not sure he did anything illegal.

Really?

I think it's very, very, very untoward and yeah, very untoward and unexpected.

I'm a pushbacking about this lawyer.

Did he

file it on his taxes, the 50 grand?

No, see, that is a question that we don't have any information or facts on, but that would be his most glaring liability.

In terms of, you know, some type of perpetrating some type of fraud or anything, he wasn't in a position.

He wasn't in a position to actually

ensure or give someone a job.

Saying that I can help you get a job, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, is one thing, but I'm not sure that in itself.

Like in theory, if it wasn't a sting, you can't criminalize stupidity, right?

Like if somebody wanted to give him 50 grand in the hopes that he would help them down the line, like that's not illegal until it happens.

In fact, I'm going to Cava today to see if there's anybody in there just offering 50

or anything.

But I just, and I have a hard time with him.

I watched that, was it Laurie Ingram?

Yeah.

I watched that Laurie Ingram interview yesterday, and it's indicative of the entire administration.

They just, they have this kind of thumb their nose at the system.

Ethics and rules don't apply.

Okay, even if it was illegal, Department of Justice ain't going to hold me accountable.

Like, I'm out here, I'm out here rounding up all the brown folk.

Like, that's what I'm doing.

And they don't like that I'm doing that.

And I'm like, that has nothing to do with the fact that you have no ethics.

Right.

And so I'm interested to hear if there was a sting, there has to be a DOJ or FBI agent who was involved in it.

I'm interested to hear the tapes or hear from that officer about what happened and provide more context.

Right now, I don't think he did anything illegal.

I think it's unethical as hell.

And I do like Cobb.

All right, Picardy, let's look at the Democrats.

Biggest picture.

What has you worried about the state of the party?

You know, what's keeping you up at night when you think about where the Democrats are right now?

What's got you sleeping with one eye open?

Leadership or lack thereof.

Chuck Schumer and King Jeffries,

they

don't provide me any ease in believing that the future of the party is strong.

Now, I will tell you that the kind of 180 to that is like Brandon Scott, the mayor of Baltimore, Andre Dickens, the mayor of Atlanta, Frank Scott, the mayor of Little Rock, Randall Wolfin, the mayor of Birmingham, my good friend Helena Moreno, who's on city council running for mayor down there.

We have a bench of people who are doing great work, whether or not you're talking about improving literacy rates in these cities or reducing Brandon Scott, Baltimore.

Baltimore has the lowest crime rate that they've had since 1970.

He's reduced their violent crime by 50%.

I mean, I just think that there are platforms that these individuals need to be on, they're messages that they need to be putting out.

And the other side is you have people like whenever there's an issue, you have Hakeem Jeffries putting out eight paragraphs on Twitter.

Don't nobody will have time to read all of that.

I don't want to read that.

What keeps one eye open at night is just the lack of leadership in Washington that we're displaying.

Just coming from the administration side of it, like, I don't know, man, the speed at which

they

have like acted on a lot of this stuff, I think has been pretty noteworthy to me, right?

Like there's nothing they've done that's like, oh, I'm surprised that they did that, right?

But like the speed at which they've kind of dismantled a lot of institutions and, you know, neutralized checks on their power, like that worries me.

And I just, I wonder, kind of putting the Democrats aside for a sec, like, will there even be time to like fight that back?

You know what I mean?

Like, how do you kind of look at that?

Like, when you think about, let's say Hocking and Jeffrey's got his shit together and the Democrats went back to the house.

It's like,

what worries you about what the administration is doing?

I still think what went back the house, but I've been thinking about this analogy a lot.

Donald Trump, the bull in the China shop, is a very real analogy.

And I think it has a lot to do with what you just said.

Because when you have a bull in a China shop, until that bull either runs out the shop or whatever, that China is forever broken, right?

Donald Trump has forever altered the very foundation of this country.

He has shook democracy at its core.

And I don't think people take that seriously enough, particularly my friends on the center right and far right.

And so I, though, understand political waves a lot like you do.

And so I honestly think he only has about another

13, 14 months of effectiveness.

Hopium Bakari is back.

I'm so excited about this because we're going to be able to get to talk about this a little bit more, but keep going.

Yeah, I think that after the midterms, there will be individuals like J.D.

Vance who will find ways to, you know, separate himself from Trump on certain issues.

You'll have people who are running for re-election who are going to separate themselves from Donald Trump on certain issues.

And you're going to have an, I mean, right now, people just say it's Vance versus Rubio, but you and I both know it's going to be at least 10 people in that primary.

I think my girl Megan Kelly might be running.

I don't understand what else would explain her behavior, Tucker.

One of those,

one of those podcast guys is going to be running.

The only person who puts more pros out around serious issues than Akeem Jeffries is Megan Kelly.

Like, I was like, I can't get into a Twitter fight with Megan Kelly because I'm not going to sit.

I don't have time to read.

I can't read all of that in response.

I love that.

I love Hopi and Bucari.

That's great.

Our audience could use that.

The pushback to that is,

what if their

power grab is not...

related to the political waves and the political kind of back and forth, right?

Like what if they lose in the midterms in the House and like decide not to seat people and just decide that they're going to start dismantling the government even more?

And right?

Like a lot of fucking damage could be done by 2028, even if they are politically weak,

if they act with impunity, if they act like they don't care about that.

I mean, I still believe in the courts to a certain extent.

That's qualified to a certain extent.

What we learned after 2016 and Donald Trump, And it also taught us that this country has a very, very short memory, is that people want it after four years of Donald Trump or whatever it was, they were really thirsting for it after two and a half, three.

People wanted some sense of sanity, which is what Joe Biden projected.

Like, I'm talking about 2020 Joe Biden.

And he projected that sense of sanity.

And I think people are going to be grasping for that again very soon because the chaos at which we are moving and people see the grift.

I think people, people really see the grift.

I mean, people are taken aback sometimes by the

fireworks and the the gold cards and the displays and the UFC fight on the front lawn.

I mean,

what is the White House becoming?

And I think that there's going to be some, the greater majority of our country just wants to be able to have days where we forget who the hell the president is.

All right, gentlemen, this is Emma Smith on behalf of Depend, and I've got the perfect play.

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All right, now we get to the juicy stuff.

Oh, your girl, our girl, the VP, Kamala, she's out there.

She's got a book.

She was out there last night.

She's on Mad Ow.

What do you think about this?

It's kind of a quasi-burn book.

It's kind of a soft burn book that she's doing a little bit on the 107 Days?

I just think that she is telling her truth and she doesn't have too many fucks to give.

And I'm with it.

I mean, I spoke to her last week about it and she's deeply concerned about the future of the country.

She does not like to lose.

She also realized that she was tired and she'd been in politics for a very long period of time, climbing that ladder, DA elections, attorney general elections, United States Senate elections, you know, running for vice president, president of the United States.

And she went through this process and she was disappointed with people.

I mean, I think that it's fair to say that the disappointment she had with the Obamas was palpable.

If you read the book and look at the difference in the response between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, you'll see that there's frustration there.

And the most damning of which is your buddy.

Which buddy?

Gavin Newsom.

That's my buddy.

He's been on every podcast in the world except mine.

You're welcome on the show, Gavin.

Now, I was on the Kamala side of this whole fight, as you remember but i do think you have respect given i it was pretty baller for gavin to apparently text her hiking when she like called him to uh to to get his endorsement officially and then they never

call later and then they never spoke to him the rest of the campaign i was like that's kind of an alpha move um even even though if you know gavin that that makes that makes sense in the context of the time i would have i would have appreciated everybody being on board for trying to stop fascism but you know just as a as a literary device it's it's it's an interesting story and i have a i have have a unique relationship with governors hiking, being from South Carolina.

Oh, yeah, that's true.

You know, my governor went on the Appalachian Trail and never came back.

So, you know, I understand that Gavin was hiking.

I got in trouble for saying this a while ago, but it's funny because it became true when the book was written.

But I said that, you know, they gave her her portfolio was trash when she got elected.

Voting rights and immigration, two things that we know

that we didn't have enough votes to pass.

We know Manchin and Sinema weren't voting for those things.

And so it just gave her, and she talked about the handcuffs that people like Anita Dunn and Jen O'Malley and Valerie Biden-Owens put on her when she was vice president of the United States.

And I just, you know, it's her truth.

I think Democrats, I think they're two books.

I think the Democrats need to learn from Jake's book, and I think Democrats need to learn from Thomas Book.

I'm here for the Biden talk because I think it is deserved.

And I wish she would have said it during the campaign, to be honest, because I think it probably would have helped her to get a little distance.

And everything that she said about Biden was true.

I guess I just like don't, and I hope to have a chance to ask her.

I guess I just don't understand like what the point is about some of the other stuff.

You know, like there isn't a lot of precedent for a book like this, right?

Like this, usually, this kind of material about like, oh, why did the VP pick so-and-so over so-and-so for VP?

Like, that's usually the kind of thing that would come out in John Heilman's book.

You know what I mean?

Not like, not the principal from her, right?

Yeah.

And so it's like, it is, it is different to have like the principal out there just, you know,

shooting a lot of daggers around all over the place.

And I guess I'm just wondering why.

Like, what, what do you think is the reason?

Like, why?

I mean, I don't think she has any fucks to give.

And I think that people still don't really know her.

I mean, she's been so, whether or not she put herself in a box or her consultants or people around her put her in a box, when you get beat, there is a certain, I mean, we didn't win any swing states.

There's a certain freedom to getting your ass kicked, right?

I mean, that just, that comes, that comes with it.

There's another version of this, though, that could be like, all right, you do a little bit of talk about the real story with the Biden thing and the Switch, which is neat.

And then the rest of this is about fighting, is about getting up off the mat.

Like, you can imagine a traditional politician book.

Maybe we don't want a traditional politician book, but it's worth kind of thinking through that exercise, right?

Like you can imagine that book, and that's not this, really.

Yeah, that's not what this is, really.

I mean, I think that, I mean, there's no space for,

what's my friend?

Allen and what that write the presidential books all the time.

John Allen and Amy Parnes.

Yeah, correct.

There's no space for that book because this is the definitive, like, this is it.

She's telling you everything.

She's telling you about the interviews they have for vice president.

She's telling you how it's a question that everybody has.

It's a question that I have on a daily basis about Pete Budigig, right?

I love Pete.

Pete's one of the smartest people I've ever met in my life.

I think Pete would be one of the best presidents this country's ever seen.

The question is looming: will America vote for a gay man with beautiful kids?

And, you know, as soon as the debate is over and he kisses his husband, what's the response?

I mean, and that for me is an unfortunate reality of where we are as a country, but one that I'm hoping that Pete's willing to take a swing at the fences and say that the country is better than that and we're better than that.

But those are conversations that people are having.

Or Josh Shapiro, how he couldn't really be a number two.

But how about I hear all that?

And again, I don't begrudge her writing that or having that conversation, but there's like the more relevant part of the conversation is

like, what could she have done to have won right like what would you what should she have done different to have won and maybe well i don't know why i think that's a short chapter because i don't think there's much i don't think there's anything come on i don't think any i don't think any democrat i think the economic headwinds were too strong that's crazy you don't believe there was any possible way a democrat could have beaten donald trump with all with his indictments and his weaknesses and i think he had a great deal of weaknesses but i think the country was in a place where we where democrats for far too long had put their head in the sand on issues like inflation and immigration and crime, issues that although the numbers may have been, because as soon as somebody says something about immigration or crime, we would pull out a statistic or crime chart.

Well, then there's your answer, though.

Why couldn't

Democrats go to run somebody who didn't have all the baggage on immigration and inflation and crime?

That would have been another idea.

That could have been something to do.

That's just an idea while we're spitballing.

I know it's your show, but let me ask you one question.

What name one Democrat that could have won?

And by the way, just understand, I think your viewers, your listeners know this and your viewers, like this didn't happen in a vacuum.

Like individuals in power around the world got beat.

Well, she didn't get killed.

I mean, it was not, it was not that far away.

So like, look, I start to think about, you look at this, and I asked Pete this question when he was on.

I was like, you get into DeLorean, what would you do different?

And it was all nibbling around the edges.

And I guess my point is like, I don't know, given the stakes, right?

Like,

if you did something totally crazy, Like, do you think Kamala and Cuban would have won?

Do you think that Cuban could have softened the bros enough?

I think maybe.

I would listen to that.

Do you think that like if you did the swing state thing with Shapiro and Whitmer, they would have done better?

Maybe, maybe not.

I don't know.

Maybe not.

But like, I think it's just worth talking through all that stuff.

If Kamala had like hard distanced herself from him on a couple things, might that have helped?

I don't know.

Yes, maybe.

Right?

Yeah, I don't know if that would have been enough.

I mean, she didn't get killed, correct?

I just don't think that with the economic climate, not just here, but throughout the world, I think the political headwinds were against us.

I do think that there are some interesting things.

Merrick Garland could have indicted Donald Trump a little early.

Now, that would have actually, if Merrick Garland would have done his job.

Running against Ron DeSanctimonius probably would have been easier.

Much easier.

I mean, she beats him, going away.

But

by the way, is he going to run for president?

I guess so.

I forgot.

It depends on how his wife does in the governance race, I think.

But I just think that Mark Cuban is an interesting person.

I will tell you that I will tell you that anybody, they didn't really ask me, but I told them that Tim Walls was my fourth choice of those listed for vice president.

Number one was Mark Kelly.

Number two was Pete Buttigic, and number three was Josh Apiro.

Yeah, I don't know if the VP would have really mattered.

I guess my point is like Cuban would have just shaken things up.

And this is not even really a particular endorsement of Cuban when he was on, we disagree on a bunch of stuff.

My point is, like, I don't know.

Sometimes I think that there's a failure of imagination.

People get into this rut.

So here's another example.

This is one of my list of things I wanted to ask you about on the failure of imagination question.

How does a Democrat win in South Carolina again?

Like the Democrats, in order to be able to actually govern, need to be able to win in places besides the 25 states that Joe Biden won.

How do they do it?

What would be a way to do it?

So are you asking about like South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama, or are you asking like North Carolina, Virginia, Georgia?

Because those are different.

I'm not asking about North Carolina, Virginia, Georgia because Joe Biden won those states.

Well, not North Carolina.

I'm asking about South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama, or Iowa, Ohio, Texas.

Democrats have to win in some of these places.

And like, I don't think that there's a lot of creative thinking.

I guess this is my point of critique of the Kamala thing.

There's not a lot of creative thinking about like, there's a lot of people being like, well, what do you expect, man?

This is just the nature.

It's a polarized time in the economy.

And I'm like, like, we're going in, we're running headlong into fascism here.

Can we like try, can we try some off-the-wall ideas?

I agree with you.

There is a NC Action, I believe, is North Carolina.

Damn, I can't think of the name of it, but they started with about eight, $25,000 donors.

And what it is, is it's an organization that has separate C3s and C4s.

One of them has consistently updated photo rolls.

The others do outreach, et cetera.

They provide grants.

But what they really have done in North Carolina is go outside of those research triangle, Charlotte, et cetera.

And they've gone into those communities, those rural communities, day in and day out, knocking on doors, informing voters.

And although you said something that I find to be like, we have to think outside the box, sometimes the fucking box is like where we need to be and we need to get back to those.

You start doing the box.

You got to start doing those fundamentals again.

In South Carolina, we have so many voters who have fallen off roles, who've been disinterested.

You know, we had an amazing opportunity with Jamie Harrison when he raised $110 million or something like that.

And I'm not sure.

It was a hitchhiker.

Might as well have just thrown it in the Atlantic Ocean.

Jamie.

did what he could do in that race, but there are some things that we can look back on it, and I think he would too in some hindsight and say that there is some infrastructure building and party building that we can do a better job of.

In South Carolina, though, we have to start by doing things like running people for dog catcher, city council, state house.

In states like South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama, you just have primaries,

right?

And people run unopposed for statehouse seats all the time.

I mean, it makes no sense.

They run unopposed for local city councils, and we have to do a better job of candidate recruitment, all of those things.

It takes money and resources, but if you give me $5 million in South Carolina,

we may not win the state, but instead of getting beat, you know, 60, 39, you're now in a 52, 46 type of place.

And that means that

you can have changes in the legislature, et cetera.

This was my problem with the Jamie Harrison thing.

It's not anything against him personally.

This is an indictment of the consultant culture.

It's just like, and everybody in the culture is like, nobody wants to shit talk each other.

This was a problem with the Biden thing.

This is where I did the one thing I disagree with the Kamala on.

I thought the Obama position was fine.

It was like, we're in unprecedented times.

Let's play it out.

Maybe there's a stronger candidate than you.

Probably not.

It'll probably be you.

But like, why are we, why can't we have a little bit of healthy disagreement?

Because when you don't have healthy disagreement, it leads to things like spending $100 million in South Carolina and have it go nothing.

I mean, like, what was the point of that money?

Like,

I don't want you, you know, sometimes there's like a culture of like, well, what else were you going to do?

I don't know.

Something else besides spending on TV ads and losing by 20 points?

You could have used it to ready to go.

My constructive criticism is about, yeah, like long, like when you look back at it,

what was created in the long

to benefit.

Yeah.

And so that's the concern that we have, and that's the same concern we have with

the billion dollars that Kamala raised.

I think your criticism is fair, more than fair.

I mean, it doesn't take a lot here in South Carolina, but it does take something.

Well, last thing I just want to go in South Carolina: what about, and maybe this is hopeless.

I had mentioned on last week, some listeners didn't like it.

What, like, should South Carolina try to like find some,

I don't know, some good old boy that like loves guns?

I'm talking about this now.

I mean, we, you know, I have a good friend, Jermaine Johnson, running for governor here.

Yeah.

But, you know, I don't know.

I mean, if he runs against Nancy Mace, I mean,

there are chances.

Do you think Nancy Wace is mentally well?

Like, do you think that she is mentally healthy?

I know Nancy very well.

I know.

That's why I'm asking.

Do you think she

is the same person that she was four, six, eight years ago?

But I will tell you that I think she's mentally fine.

You do?

Yeah.

You don't think she needs help?

Like, if outside of the context of politics, if you you guys were just friends, would you ask her if she might need to consider therapy?

I think she definitely needs therapy.

I think most of y'all need therapy, though.

I mean,

I'm in therapy for y'all motherfuckers who don't go to therapy.

That's why I'm in therapy.

So yeah, the answer is...

I'm sorry.

Okay, fair enough.

Jermaine Johnson, your point is if it's it's a tough race.

It's a tough race.

I mean, and to your, to your, to your credit, a good white male businessman.

I don't even know.

How about a black male businessman?

Like the whiteness would help, sure.

A sheriff's business.

But like a black sheriff that also like thinks the gun rights are really important and isn't like has maybe some second thoughts about trans kids and sports i don't like those aren't my positions i'm just trying to like come up with what what how do you model a person that wins there you know yeah i mean that would be that would be fascinating yeah nobody's trying yeah that would be fascinating but that's this still is south carolina right and nancy's and literally nancy's gonna have people who don't vote for because she's a woman i mean we still have we still have voters like that she probably is going to be your next governor of south carolina though oh my god okay all right has she come on your show yet have you sent her your invitation

nancy you're always welcome on the show would love to hear from you i got wes donahue waiting in the wings we'll do kind of like a thing where we spring your old staffers on you on the show kind of jerry springer style um all right final topic i will watch that

all right gentlemen this is emin smith on behalf of the pen and i've got the perfect play Run straight to your doctor's office for a life-changing catch because when prostate cancer is caught early, it's up to 99% treatable and one blood test might be all it takes.

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As mentioned at the top, thoughts on the race reckoning that wasn't.

This is just on the top of my mind right now because you mentioned earlier this idea of canceling people for their ignorance, and maybe that went a little overboard.

I had Tanahasi Coates on a couple months ago, and I was asking him about this, like about the backlash.

And he said this: He said, I think all movements had their excesses, and I think all movements have their fools.

And sometimes those fools, you know, have power, and sometimes those excessive people have power, and they do things that are not smart and not in service of the ideals that they claim to be serving.

And that's like where I just want, I'm just curious your just honest take on this.

Like when it comes to the kind of racial awakening stuff that you wrote about in the book, how much of that was in service of the ideals that folks were claiming to be serving?

And how much of that ended up being a little bit counterproductive to the service of the ideals that they were serving?

I mean, I think that there's a little quip that people say sometimes.

Sometimes people are in the movement for change and sometimes people are in the movement for change.

And I think that's a fair assessment.

We were very, very close to having another period of Reconstruction in this country.

And as oftentimes happens in the country, whenever you get close to having those periods or go through those periods for Reconstruction, it's oftentimes met with a fierce backlash.

I think we underestimated what that backlash would look like.

Now, were there steps too far that we took when it comes to maybe things like Black Girl Magic or maybe some of the stances we took on the LGBTQIA plus issues?

Were there stances that we took, you know, regarding monuments or painting roads or all of that other stuff that the monument stances were good, but gosh.

I mean, that's not my ministry.

I'm not going to be there in the middle of the night because substantively, I don't think that moves the ball down the road, taking down a statue or painting Black Lives Matter square, right?

I just don't think that moves the ball down.

And racism in the football field, you don't think that was the thing that was going to do it.

No, I mean, I thought Roger Goodell should have got the Nobel Peace Prize for that.

For that, just for that.

And so I hope people hear the sarcasm.

It's interesting that the same stadiums that had end racism on the end zone, like up till like last year, maybe even some of them this year, also had tributes to

hagiography to Charlie Kirk on the board.

You know what I mean?

It's kind of like the winds are hollow, I guess is my point.

And I would say that to the Charlie Kirk crowd, too.

These guys will turn back on you in a second.

We still have systemic issues in this country that have to be deconstructed.

And we still have issues such as, you know, people ask me all the time about systemic racism.

Give me an example.

What are you talking about?

And I'm telling them: black women are still three to four times more likely to die during childbirth than their white counterparts.

That's a fact.

I'm not talking about people calling you nigger.

I'm talking about the access to quality health care.

I'm talking about access to first-class education, making sure that people are drinking clean water, not breathing in unhealthy air, making sure you're not living in food deserts, these things that although the correlation with poverty is there, regardless of race, there is still is an issue of race when you, when you underline those things.

And we didn't, during COVID, we had an opportunity to peel back the layer of the onion.

And unfortunately, people got $1,600 to checks and

the fight was not had.

Yeah, I guess that's my, because I agree with you.

All those things that you mention,

like about healthcare and about access to clean drinking water and food.

It's like pretty separate from like the Robin DiAngelo, you know, kind of identity side of things.

I'll make a statement, you ton, if you you agree with it.

I think that in retrospect,

elevating of diverse voices was good.

Centering race like across all verticals to a degree that a lot of folks in the movement did

ended up

inevitably creating a backlash because it's still a white country.

It's still a majority white country, right?

And if you want to center identity to that degree where identity is the first thing people talk about, racial identity in every case, like the white folks are going to start to start centering identity too.

And that is not to excuse them for racist behavior.

That's not to do any of that.

It's just as a strategic matter, it's just, it's kind of against liberal democratic principles, but it also, I just think, is not in service of the ideals that you're serving and inevitably is going to lead to this place where there's like a real, a real backlash.

I just wonder if you think other folks in here are able to reflect on that.

I think you're right to a degree.

And I think that your, your point, if people reject it outwardly, they would be foolish because they need to hear that.

And I think that that has a great deal of value.

I think that there is a patent fear when you make that statement that people immediately begin to think like Bernie Sanders, right?

And they're like, you know, you have this purely economic message or message about poverty that eliminates the overtones or undertones of race.

Like we've never dealt with that in the country.

Where I think we need to go, and this is going to kind of weird people out, but if you go back and listen in 84 and 88, I think you'll be moved.

We need to go back to a party party of Jesse Jackson, who was able to effectively, not just his oratory, but effectively bring communities of color, bring immigrants, bring working class folk together around those issues that we just talked about, which are not just issues of differences, but they're literally killing us.

Jesse is somebody who, and by the way, you should get, you got to get Abby Phillip on the show.

She has a new book on Jesse Jackson.

I'm working on that.

If you're, well, if Republicans brought back Pat Buchanan, why not Democrats bring back Jesse Jackson?

Do you have a favorite Jesse Jackson speech you want to leave people with?

They want to go pick one?

You got one?

Oh, yes, actually.

His 84 DNC speech.

We start there.

I feel like I watched that 18 years ago when I was a Republican, so I'm going to go watch it after this.

I'll probably have new eyes on it.

I've had some changes in my life also that might give me some new perspective on that speech.

And so I will do that after this.

But Cari Sellers, man, I always appreciate the time, man.

Yeah, I love you, man.

Love your family.

Call me if you ever need anything.

I'll see you soon.

All right, back at you.

Hopefully, we'll get to see you on on your New Orleans.

Everybody else, we'll see you tomorrow for another edition of the podcast.

Peace.

Girl.

You have the fake medicine.

Oh, girl.

You have the fake medicine.

Just in a medium.

Just in a medicine.

Oh, girl.

Is there a way to find a cure for this implanted in a pill?

Just the name upon the bottle which determines if it will.

Is the problem you're allergic to a well-familiar name?

Do you have a problem with this one if the results are the same?

What's in the medicine?

Yes, in the medicine.

I'll give you

fake medicine.

I'll girl.

You have to make message of medicine.

Watch for the medicine.

Use for the medicine.

I'll go.

The Buller Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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