Symone Sanders-Townsend: The White House’s Goal Is Enacting Pain

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audio.

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast.

I'm your host, Tim Miller.

Delighted to welcome back my friend, the co-host of The Weeknight on MSNBC.

She was a top spokesperson and communications director and strategist for Bernie Sanders and Kamala Harris and I don't know, a million other people.

It's Simone Sanders.

How you doing, girl?

Greetings.

I'm well.

Simone Sanders Townsend and my, my little,

I don't even know what we're calling this, but my coiled situation are checking in.

You're looking good.

Simone Sanders Townsend.

Excuse me for not giving you your full, you know, your full name.

I just want to be able to go home at night.

I don't want to get in trouble with your man.

You know, I'm just throwing, I'm just going to throw back to where we first met.

We're going to talk about this at the end.

I just want to shout out on October 11th, MSNBC's hosting MSNBC Live 25 in New York.

Simone will tell you more about that at the end.

But if you're interested in that, the Bulwark also has a show that night, October 11th, but we sold out.

That's a smaller venue, you know, so we're more indie, right?

But if you can't make it to see us, you should go see Simone and some other people.

Come see us.

We're at the Hammerstein ball.

Oh, man, it's going to be good.

October 11th.

So check that out.

More at the end.

We got to talk shutdown politics.

So the government is shut down right now.

You were agitating back in whatever it was, March, that the Dems do what they're doing right now and go to the mat on this and so i'm wondering what you make of the strategy what we've seen so far you know now that we're what about a day and a half into this thing first of all i think that it is refreshing frankly to see the democratic elected officials on capitol hill coalescing around an issue, coalescing around health care and saying, we know what is about to happen to the American people in this country.

So we are going to use the tools that we have, the one tool, the one piece of leverage that we have as as the minority party in this Congress, and that is they need our votes.

We're not going to supply our votes unless we can do something for the healthcare of the American people.

I think that's amazing.

I think it makes sense, and I think it's great.

I was very frustrated back in March because

the whole argument, which was crazy, was about like, oh, you know, if we let them shut the government down, they're just going to.

fire people and run rough shot over

Congress.

We kept the government open and they were doing it anyway.

So it didn't seem like you know a good strategy.

On this one, I do think that Democrats are going to be able to exact some concessions from Republicans because that's the only way the government is going to get back open.

I think that it is refreshing that we're, what, about two days in as we're having this conversation that the Senate caucus has held for the most part.

The last time 10 Democrats voted with the Republicans in March to pass that spending bill, to pass the CR, four of those were folks in leadership, right?

We have not had the four in leadership leadership join the ranks of Captain Cortez-Masto, Fetterman, and Angus King.

So to me, that is important.

I'm watching John Ososoff, okay?

He's the most vulnerable Democrat in the United States Senate up for re-election next year.

And he right now believes that this is a fight worth having.

So fingers crossed, Sam, that these Democrats can pull it together.

So I have a couple questions for you.

What do you think is the end game here for the Democrats?

What's the exit plan?

I guess that's a main issue.

I've got two issues, I guess, with the strategy.

That's one of them.

What do you think it is?

Okay.

So one, I have asked, I said, well, what's the off-rep?

So, like, what is it going to take for y'all to say, okay, we are pleased here?

And they say, well, we want the subsidies that are going to expire, the Affordable Care Act, subsidies, the things from the Inflation Reduction Act.

We want those permanent.

And I'm like, okay, permanent for a year, permanent for two years.

They were like, we will take some form of permanent.

And then they want the Medicaid pieces from the One Big Beautiful bill, or as the Democrats like to call it the One Big Ugly Bill.

I just like to say the bill that was passed.

They want those restored because they don't want people kicked off their Medicaid next year.

I don't know if they're going to be able to get number two.

I don't know if they're going to be able to get number one.

Well, I think number one, I think that they're able to get number one, to be honest.

I mean, because people have had the help.

Like, I do think that the argument about people's prices going up 300%

when in an economy where they are already stretched thin, especially when it comes to health care, I think that that is a very solid argument.

And you can get Republicans across the board who say, look, I don't care about Obamacare.

I don't like the Affordable Care Act.

However, I cannot support raising prices of my constituents by 300%.

I think that they could get that.

But this Medicaid piece...

I think it's just a little bit tougher.

Even though you've got Republicans like Josh Hawley, who remember, after that bill was passed, he himself introduced some legislation to undo what they did on the Medicaid pieces.

I just think if they gave Democrats that, they would be acknowledging the thing that they have never wanted to acknowledge and that their bill like kicks people off Medicaid and cuts services for all these people.

And I don't think the Republican apparatus in Congress or the political apparatus is willing to do that.

So let's say that the Republicans hold the line and decide they don't give a fuck that people's health care prices are going up.

And the Democrats say, okay, we see this as a winning issue for us.

We're going to keep talking about this and focusing on this.

And if your health care premiums are going up, so we want you to know who's to blame.

That's kind of irrational on both sides.

And so then the question is, where does it end?

And I just, I harken back to, I guess I'll have to anonymize.

I had a conversation with a Democratic senator a while back, and they were like, you have no idea how weak-kneed some of my colleagues are.

And, you know, to me, I just think it ends up in a place where, you know, six more, seven more,

what does it need to be?

Four more?

They had three.

They need four.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Four more of these more old school, you know, traditional.

You know, I still think that I'm dealing with Tip O'Neill and Ronnie Reagan Democrats.

Like four more of them fold on this.

And then, you know, what you didn't have a lot to show for it.

I guess you drew attention to the health care issue would be the argument.

Drew attention to the health care issue.

That is still an issue, frankly, if they do not get what they are asking for in terms of the, like, people's premiums are going to go up 300 plus percent.

People are going to be kicked off their health care.

People are going to die.

Like, that's just the reality here.

People are going to die.

So, look, I think if the scenario that you are laying out happens, which is very plausible because you're right, folks are weak knee.

Catherine Cortez-Masto, you know, respect the lady very much.

She was the most vulnerable Democrat in the last cycle.

She won re-election.

Damn.

She's got six years.

The girl got six years.

Hold your dang gone vote.

But she proactively has been, again, it's her, Angus King, and John Fetterman.

So I think if somebody like Catherine Cortez-Masto, who has nothing to lose, is unwilling to, you know, go out on a limb on this one, I can foresee that.

That's my question is: well, how long?

I'm watching to see how long Senate Democrats hold and if they can pick off four more.

And if in fact they do, then I think that there are questions to be had to the Democratic senators.

There are questions to be had about Senate leadership on the Democratic side.

But when it comes to the House, Again,

there are people that are like, oh, the Senate might be in play next year.

Well, I got a bridge I want to sell you in the middle of the Antarctic.

Okay.

And I want to say that.

Really, you're that negative on it?

On the Senate?

Yeah.

Because I'm realistic.

Okay.

I'm realistic.

Like,

is there a universe where the Senate could potentially be in play?

Maybe.

But again, if we're talking in a scenario where Senate Democrats don't hold the line in the cave after a couple of days or maybe a couple of weeks, then that does not bolster the argument, frankly, to the American people about why these are the folks you should put back in charge of the United States Senate.

But on the House side, I think that their strategy is very sound.

First of all, it's good politics and it's good policy, Tim.

What they are doing is good politics, but what they are also doing is good policy.

It is right.

Healthcare is not an ancillary issue for folks.

And frankly, the clarity that I heard Hakeem Jeffries espouse during his weekly press conference this week where he said, Danks keep saying they're going to negotiate with us later.

Why should we trust these people?

Thank you, Leader Jeffries.

I've been waiting on y'all to, why should y'all trust them?

Because at every turn, they have demonstrated that they, their Republican counterparts in Congress, cannot be trusted, that they cannot be trusted to negotiate in good faith, to have good conversations, which is why Jeffries and Schumer pressed for a meeting with Donald Trump directly and the people at the White House, with the Senate, with the congressional leadership there, because that is where the ball game is.

So look, I'm very heartened by what I'm seeing from House Democrats.

Will they eventually get what they're asking for?

We don't know.

I will remind people, though, the last time the last shutdown really ended, it's because the airlines got involved.

Airline executives was calling folks up.

They were like, look, y'all going to have to figure this out.

We've let it go on long enough because when it starts affecting the businesses, the travel industry, the airlines, people are not going to stand for,

you know, letting this back and forth go.

I guess the last thing I'll note is the Republicans in Congress are not standing on like a good faith argument, right?

I could see if they were like, well, look, we had been negotiating with our Democratic counterparts and they're just trying to get us to acquiesce to all these things.

They had not been negotiating.

They were very clear that they were not going to talk to them and they're lying about health care.

They're lying about what this is about.

They're not coming at it from a good faith argument and they're using the very real crisis that is a government shutdown to fire people.

What are we doing?

Yeah, let's talk about that, them firing folks.

I agree with you.

The other thing, in addition to the fact that they're lying about what the Democrats are are pushing for on healthcare and the fact that they didn't negotiate, the other thing is they haven't let

any of these rules stop them so far from doing whatever they want.

Right.

And so like the idea that's like, oh, you know, we needed, like, we're doing this because the Democrats aren't giving us their votes.

Like, what are you talking about?

They did, they doged and they fired a bunch of people illegally as soon as they got in there.

The president is doing unilateral tariffs and essentially unilateral sales taxes on the American people without going through Congress, even though Congress has the power of the purse.

So, like, don't tell me that, oh, you can't, you're only doing this because you don't have the extra four Democratic votes.

That's just not how they've done business since they've been in there.

But on these firings, because substantively, this really matters.

We've got Russ Vote.

They say that they're cutting the, quote, what they call the Green New Scam projects.

There was no Green New Deal never actually passed.

So I don't even know what they're playing on here, but whatever.

They're cutting some of these environmental projects.

They're cutting some transportation projects in blue states.

My colleague Jonathan Cohen Cohen wrote a great article about this, about David Langlace and the Iron Workers, local 37.

He's a wind turbine guy, and he's like, his project is cut.

And these are like, these are supposedly the Trump coalition, blue-collar, working-class manufacturing guys.

They're being hurt by this, right?

So it's not just like, you know, the liberal HR person at the EPA or whatever in D.C.

that's being hurt.

Like everybody's being hurt.

When you cut these projects, you cut the people that are working on the projects.

It's a lot of working class folks.

To me, this strategy feels like they're overplaying their hand on this.

No, I think you're right.

I do think they're overplaying their hand.

But I would also, I mean, we have to understand that they are also being wildly consistent.

Russ Vogt has said from the beginning that his goal was to enact pain on the federal workforce and the administrative state, that they wanted to dismantle it.

They literally wrote it down in Project 2025.

And you got the president, like right before we're having this conversation today, he's posted on his social media site talking about Russ Vogt of Project 2025 fame fame and is essentially bragging about what his OMB director is doing and saying, look, if Democrats don't get it together, he's just going to keep doing this.

One, who is in charge of the government?

Is it Russ Vote?

Is it the president?

Is it Stephen Miller?

Like, what is there a power sharing agreement that the American people don't know about over here?

Why is the president acting like he's a bystander in this situation?

So that's first.

But secondly, in terms of these firings, I do think that narrative is a very powerful thing here.

Store data has never been the thing that moves people.

It's stories that do.

And you can bet just like the article you're talking about about the iron workers and like the folks that are talking about how you know this was a project it was creating jobs now we've lost it like we don't understand the rationale here there are going to be many more stories like that People are going to need to tell those stories loudly in many different venues because that is the thing that is going to move the needle here for folks.

Just like the farmers, you know, we talked about the tariffs.

Last time the farmers were all like, look, the president's doing what he needs to do.

We're with him.

We're going to stand up to China.

As long as we get our bail out.

As long as we get our bail out, and they got it.

This time, the soybean farmers are like, hold up, okay?

But the soybean farmers are pissed off.

The soybean farmers are pissed, okay?

Because China hasn't purchased not one American soybean ever since these tariffs popped off.

They done got their soybeans from elsewhere, honey.

The soybean farmers in Nebraska, where I'm from, they're like, what is good?

Minnesota,

they're ready to knuck a few bucks, for lack of a better term.

So I just, this is,

this is not a clear-cut strategy.

All right, everybody, we are sold out of tickets to all of our shows on the fall tour except for October 8th in Washington, D.C.

And was on a call yesterday planning out what we've got in store for you.

It's going to be fun.

Obviously, JVL will be there, so there'll be elements of darkness.

But we're also bringing in Sarah McBride for a conversation with Sarah Longwell that I'm super excited for.

Maybe we might get Will Summer up to talk about some of the crazy shit that's happening on the MAGA right.

I've got some other plans in store for you.

So it's not too late.

Get your tickets now.

Washington, D.C., October 8th.

Go to thebulwark.com slash events.

Thebulwark.com slash events.

I hope to see you all there.

It's at the Lincoln Theater.

Awesome venue.

Appreciate them for hosting us.

And so I hope to see you all in Washington, October 8th.

I want to read this to you.

This is the strangest thing about the Republican messaging.

I want to go, I have one other nitpick about the Democrats' messaging I want to get to in a second, but the Republicans don't, like, because they're so crazy, a lot of times people don't even like call them on just the level of depravity and insanity that's coming from the White House.

This is the White House press secretary today on Fox.

She says, if the Democrats don't want further harm on their constituents open to government, she talks about that in the context of Russ vote being unleashed on federal agencies that may need to be halted or permanently cut.

So there's, she's saying, like, we are harming people.

We are in charge.

We are harming people.

And if the Democrats don't want us to harm people, then they, they need to give in, right?

So they're hostage taking the American citizens.

And they're saying that they are.

Like that is crazy messaging.

Tim, they think that they are going to get the benefit of the doubt.

They think that the broad swath of the American people are not actually going to understand what is going on here.

That is the premise of this messaging.

This is what happens when you got non-comms professionals out here trying to put together the messaging.

Okay.

Well, they have a good reason for this, actually.

Let me, because this goes to on both sides.

They have good reason to think that people won't buy it.

Why?

I was on a plane to New York.

I'm about to tell you.

I was on a plane to New York and I do the thing that I do.

I don't subject my family to Fox News.

I think that's just fair.

You know, I just don't want it to be on the TV at my house.

So when I'm traveling, I watch it.

Just go see what's happening.

Spent an hour with Fox News on the plane yesterday.

And it's like a totally different universe right i mean like they i mean we can get into a bunch of the other stuff and they're mad about bad bunny yeah multiple segments about how great erica kirk is and tpusa and like that like the just hagiography of charlie kirk multiple segments about that but on the shutdown stuff like the only dissenting voice is rand paul like it's just it's just republicans talking about how this is all the democrats all this is all the democrats fault we can't do anything without them we're trying to do its best they only care about you know the crazy left they play elon Omar.

You know, they find the craziest thing that they can hear and play a clip of that.

There's no dissenting voice.

Like there's nobody on the network saying what you're saying.

That like, no, your healthcare premiums are going up.

The Democrats are doing this.

Then that's the problem.

That's the, I mean, Jessica Tarlov, bless her heart.

Yeah.

She was on the five making the same case the other day.

And the panel like essentially tried to shout her down.

And she's like, I'm just telling y'all the facts.

So I will say that I'm heartened by what I've seen from the Democrats.

But the other thing is you got to be everywhere all at once consistently.

That takes somebody standing up like a booking, like a coordinated booking apparatus.

Now I'm getting technical from my like campaign days.

Can somebody do that?

So let's before we before we get into the booking side of it.

So this is what I was thinking about as I was sitting there suffering through Fox News on the Southwest Airlines flight yesterday, just trying to survive.

I was like, I want to ask Simone, who could go onto this show?

Jared Moskowitz?

Yeah, Jared Moskowitz is pretty good, but he's like trolling half the time, which is good.

We appreciate a troll.

We love it.

it.

The Democrats could use a troll.

We love that.

We love that about Jared Moskowitz.

But, like, who could go out there and just succinctly make the point about what the Democrats' rationale is for this shutdown?

Pete Budig?

He's not even, he doesn't have a job.

He's just a dad.

He doesn't have a job.

He's just a guy with a dad.

I'm sure Pete should go on more.

That means he's available.

That's true.

He's available to be a bad man.

That's concerning, though, that you didn't say Hakeem Jeffries.

That we don't, that there's not a point person in Congress that you're like, you know, this person, this person has done a really great job.

I think Pete Aguilar is great on it.

I'd like to see Pete Aguilar.

I think Pete Aguilar would be great.

I think Catherine Clark has been really great on some of these pieces.

I just, the reason I say not leader Jeffries on this is just because I

think you got to send out, if it were me, if it were, you know, if I was the senior advisor for the House of Democratic Caucus, which I am not, baby, I have a job.

But if I was a senior prompt advisor,

well, you don't, and this has gotten, honestly.

Talk about it, Tim.

I would say, okay, I would try to identify like my best messengers

for the various mediums, right?

Like, I actually think Jasmine Crockett has been, we had her on our show the other day, she's been great on this.

I wouldn't put her on Fox News.

Greg Kassar was really great on the shutdown and what they were doing.

I wouldn't put him on Fox News per se.

Brendan Boyle, very good, but in person.

So I would send him up there with Brett Baer, right?

He's the ranking member.

He could talk about the things.

Like, I just think you have to get different voices for the medium and then say,

this is your home base and hammer it home.

There are folks that can do it.

But the problem here is the way it works in these, you know, I never actually worked on the Hill in Congress.

I was always hill adjacent.

I did campaigns and then obviously I worked in the White House, so on and so forth.

Same because we're not dweebs.

That's why.

You know, you know, the Hill people are going to hate us after this, but whatever.

We're the ones who are out on the campaign trail.

Correct.

We're out there in the trenches, honey.

Okay, in the trenches.

But you know, Tim, it's kind of crazy when you realize how the Hill people operate.

It is not a centralized situation like it is in a campaign apparatus or whatnot.

There's not somebody who's on staff regularly whose job is to track, like, what are the people's bookings?

Where are we from cable to podcast to radio to like, what is the social?

There's not a caucus wide on the Republican side or the Democratic side where that is a role that somebody has.

Like, this is a mini campaign, essentially.

Like, Democrats and frankly, Republicans are running a mini campaign around the shutdown.

And it is a messaging war at this point.

And you have to have a very strong campaign apparatus so you can aggressively get out there and win the messaging war.

And that requires some logistical backing.

I mean, just a very, very simple example.

The morning after the shutdown,

the vice president was out and about making the rounds.

The speaker of the house was out and about.

The head of the Republican conference, Lisa McClain, they were out everywhere.

Hell, they was on MSNBC.

Lisa McClain was on Morning Joe.

Yes.

And

the Democratic leadership and the top voices that the Democratic side of the aisle have, they weren't out that morning.

Hacking Jeffries' press conference wasn't until 2.

And then after 2 o'clock, they went out full force.

But the entire morning, the framing, you know, J.D.

Vance and the speaker were just out there spouting their stuff.

If it were me, we'd have had our press conference at 9.

That's a technical complaint, but it is related to my point.

It does matter.

It's related to my point, which is like, okay, I forget who I was on.

I was, you know, you know how it is, Nicole or Simone.

I'll say I'm calling you the wrong name.

It's a whirlwind.

I'm on all these shows.

I forget which fucking show I was on where I was talking about this, but whoever I was on with said something about like, this is a PR battle, right?

Like this is not real.

I mean, like, it's a policy battle to the stuff that you laid out.

correctly about health care.

But like for the Democrats to actually win, a win is to make sure the American people know that it's the Republicans that are the ones that are to blame for their increased health care premiums.

That's the fight they've picked.

You could have picked maybe tariffs or something else, but they picked the healthcare premium fight.

So now it's a PR battle.

And that is where I'm just like, okay, so the Democrats did a live stream.

That's good.

I don't want to nitpick them.

Like they're doing something.

Doing something's better than nothing.

Like they're out there.

They're, you know, in their kind of more left and center left kind of echo chambers, right?

But like to actually win this battle, you need a succinct message that is very clear, that makes the other side the bad guy, and that you can take into hostile territory.

And to your point, say what you want about fucking JD Vance.

And I've said plenty of nasty shit about J.D.

Vance, and I will continue to.

But J.D.

Vance will go on to the Sunday shows, goes on to CNN.

He won't come onto my show.

You're always welcome, Mr.

Vice President.

He's welcome on the weeknight as well.

We have yet to see him.

So there's certain places he won't go, but he's out there making the point.

He's lying.

He's lying, but just just like not grading on the merits of the argument, just saying like he has an argument.

It's clear.

It's about the illegal immigrants.

Now it's the Democrats' fault that they want to fund illegal immigrants.

He's willing to say it in any venue.

And that is going to win this battle if the Democrats don't have a messenger and a message that they can take and to Fox and elsewhere.

I guess I would argue they do have a message.

I heard it all day yesterday after 2 p.m.

And the message is that

health care is not a narrow

it's not a

get the makeup done after

baby if it were me

we'd have been up we'd have been up and out that morning okay i know it was a long night but we we gotta Gotta early work against the worm.

They do have a message and their message is that healthcare is not a side issue.

And frankly, we're happy to negotiate with anyone.

This is what they should be saying.

They're happy to negotiate with anyone, but these folks have not wanted to talk to them.

So like, come talk.

Mike Johnson, come talk but they have to take the message many places consistently everywhere i mean i do think it's breaking through i've been seeing folks madeline stansberry she did uh

she did a melanie pardon me madeline who i'm looking i'm looking at melanie on the screen she's good over here she's good get her out more she's excellent she had a video i saw the other day where she was like getting out of her car just like had her phone she's getting out of her car like i would be going to vote but like i i thought i've seen a lot of those is of late those are great and i think think that they matter because they break through for the people that are not watching the news.

But for the people that are watching the news, that are watching Fox, you got to go there too.

But you also got to get on your own socials and be consistent and organic and just answer people's questions.

I think they're doing that.

But I disagree with you when I'm when you say that, like, they're going to, that the Republican argument is one that, you know, it's simple, but it'll win.

It is a lie.

And every time they say it, anybody with

just an ounce of integrity has to say, that's not true.

And more and more we're starting to hear people do it.

It happened to Donald Trump in the Oval Office the other day.

He said his piece, and I believe a really great reporter from TBS News, Ouija, she says, undocumented people do not receive benefits.

It is not allowed.

So what are you talking about?

That is a very generous framing.

Okay.

I think we have to get to the place of, you all keep saying something that is literally not true.

Do you expect the American people to just believe what you say?

Like, we got to get there.

Even George Stephanopoulos pushed back on the speaker.

George Stephanopoulos was like, uh, Speaker Johnson,

and you know what Speaker Johnson said?

Well, that is incredulous.

And George is like, well, no.

I mean, like, they're not saying what you're saying.

They're saying.

So help me understand.

Caitlin Collins had this speaker on pushback.

I think when

the Republican elected officials are going out there, if they are lying, now, in some instances, on other things, they have an argument that is not an outright lie, right?

That like there's some nuance there.

And one could argue some of what they said makes sense.

This is not that.

On this, you've got Democrats saying your premiums are going to go up if we don't do something.

And by the way, we're also going to try to get all these people that are going to lose their health insurance not to lose their health insurance by asking them to roll back the stuff that they did.

And the Republicans are like, they want to give health care and undocumented people.

Okay, please, please, please, let's go.

Can we just come back to reality here?

And that is, I think, what's frustrating for me as a person that does this every single day.

I'm just like, well, how much longer are we just going to let the lies stand?

If somebody was like, this is a lie.

I'm with you on that part.

It's a lie.

They're full of shit.

They're lying all the time.

I guess my thing is you got to fight.

You got to fight on the field with the opponent you got.

And the opponent they got is an opponent that is well,

they lie, but they lie everywhere and they lie brazenly and they lie a lot and they lie loudly and they don't give a fuck.

They're shameless about it.

I'm not saying the Democrats need to be shameless about lying, but I'm saying that they need need to have a message that they can take you know to people that are like outside the little social media bubble that's that's all i'm saying i mean i think you're right and i also i mean we just want to be frank you know working at the white house is amazing because the white house is the biggest bully pulpit in america yeah they got a huge advantage with that correct and so you are the democratic elected officials are up against the fact that yeah if the vice president wants to call up you know any cable news outlet or any local, like they're going to take him because of course we're going to, we want the vice president, right?

Like the president wants to call a presser and then talk for 45 minutes about the healthcare situation and tell the lie about undocumented people.

He's a president of the United States.

And so, but that is the, you know, elections have consequences.

That is the situation they find themselves in.

So what are y'all going to do?

Kamala Harris on a book tour.

Hello?

Maybe y'all need to ask that lady to talk about the situation.

Go on, Fox.

That's what I'm saying.

Democrats, I know some of you are listening.

Go on, Fox.

Do it.

You know, make your message.

Show me.

Show me.

I'll clip it.

I'll push it around.

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One other thing on the actual policy on the Elections Have Consequences, back to vote.

One thing that they're doing that they're unabashed about is we're like, we're just going to target blue states.

Like, and obviously, we're going to send troops into blue cities, but like, now we're just going to say we're going to cut projects.

We're going to not, you know, we're going to cancel projects that are happening in blue states.

We're going to cancel projects that have whatever progressive goals behind them you know be it environmental or otherwise we're going to cancel transportation infrastructure projects in new york like russ vaults uh it's so crazy when the hurricane comes i don't think people think of the hurricanes as woke yet they want the you know what i'm saying yeah like they're doing that but here's my question for you like It's the opposite of what Biden did.

The Biden idea was, oh, we're going to build a lot of infrastructure.

We're going to build a lot of plants.

We're going to build chips plants.

We're going to do infrastructure in red states, and maybe that'll help the Democrats.

That obviously didn't work.

It didn't.

Democrats didn't gain any ground at those places.

I was on Jon Stewart's weekly podcast yesterday, and Jon Stewart was making the argument, and people can listen to the whole thing.

So I'm just going to paraphrase him to hear exactly what he was saying.

But he was basically saying, if the Democrats get power again, they need to govern like this.

Like, this is the new reality.

Democrats should punish red states, target red states, use, I mean, the blue states is where a lot of the tax money is coming from.

They're giver states.

Red states are taker states.

And it's time for the Democrats to play hardball when it comes to actual policy if they ever get in power again.

And the governors of those states should do so now.

That made me a little uncomfortable.

People can listen to our exchange.

Yes, it makes me very uncomfortable.

Yeah, so I was just wondering what you thought about that.

I disagree with that.

I think that there are a lot of lessons from the second Trump administration and this current iteration of the Republican Congress.

One of the lessons that I've taken away is that the next time I hear Democratic elected officials say, oh, well, you know, there's just some things we can't do.

No, no, you can do them.

You can do them.

And there's actually very, very little pushback that you will get if you just push the good thing through.

Like you could have done the build back better.

You could implement the care pieces.

You can pass an executive order.

Like I think the short-term, like good goals, whether or not it is lasting is another question.

But like do the thing now.

But this thing about, and I'm going to go and listen to the conversation, but like the targeting the red states.

I like to always remind people, I grew up in North Omaha, Nebraska.

My mother still lives there.

One of my brothers and my sisters still live there.

It has a community that I am from.

Yes, there are black people in Nebraska.

And Nebraska is a red state.

Omaha.

Oh, shout out to Omaha.

Shout out to the Blue Dot.

Okay.

I hate the frame red states, blue states, because it totally discounts the people that live in those communities across the country.

Heck, at one point, Michigan was a red state.

Hell, it could go red again if people ain't careful.

I think this idea that the goal should be to enact pain on the people is wrong.

I think the goal, if Democrats get back in power, is accountability.

Accountability for the businesses, the individuals, and the institutions, and the people and organizations that thought that they could get away with going along with Donald Trump and the Republicans' illegal power grabs.

So the businesses include like any of these people that cut deals with the Trump administration.

If the Democrats take back the House, I think that those people should expect more than just a strongly worded letter.

They should expect a freaking investigation to be hauled in front of Congress with the cameras out, like the Republicans did the leaders of Columbia and Penn and so on and so forth.

That's what these businesses should have to do for these lawyers that went along with the get-along and did these illegal things.

I think that they should expect to be hauled before Congress and then find some way to charge these people if they committed a crime.

That's what needs to happen.

But I don't believe in

another, if in Democrats ever get power back, that the goal should be to inflict pain on the people.

That is one un-American.

But two, again, as a person from a red state,

do the black people in Nebraska deserve to be defunded because the Republicans acted a fool?

That's what you're basically saying to me, folks out there with that argument.

And I just, I can't get down with that.

Yeah, people should listen to the whole thing.

I guess I think John would frame it as he was saying, no, we should actually reward, you know, whatever, take the money away from the stupid product, the ICE shed and use executive orders to, you know, fund, you know, whatever.

Agreed.

I think that the money, I think that the money from ICE should go away.

Why does ICE need all the money?

Right.

Anyway, listen to the whole thing.

I mean, I think that it's kind of something we're still kicking around.

There is an element of punishment to it, but I think the idea is that

Trump is being more

for all of his

craziness.

And I played the clip earlier about how they're like, fuck, we'll punish people if the Democrats don't do this.

We don't care.

There's like a responsiveness to it that comes from the executive order policy that's like, okay, you voted for me.

Here's my response.

Like, I'm going to do an executive order and we're going to bail out the farmers and we're going to stop funding New York City subways and we're going to give this to you.

And like there's a little bit of a to the winner go the spoils element of this.

I believe that those things are fine.

I mean, look, I worked for Joe Biden.

He did not believe in executive orders.

Okay.

He didn't.

He came from Congress and believes that one should not be governing by executive order, that in America, you have to work with the other side, get legislation passed, and that's how you get things done.

Okay.

Well, I think the next time there's a Democratic president, if there's a Democratic president, the next time.

Executive orders, I'm not saying don't try to get things through Congress.

Legislation is very important because it is lasting.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with an executive order, okay?

My first president I could vote for was for Barack Obama, baby, and he signed a lot of executive orders, much to the chagrin of a lot of folks in Congress and some of the people that worked for him.

But

the executive and you, yes, but the executive order.

So you and John ended up aligned on that one.

So yeah, you're on my side, I want one, his side, on the other.

That's okay.

Sucks.

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Two other things you just mentioned I wanted to get to before I let you go.

One is the universities, but first, let's just talk about that Red State Senate stuff.

You've mentioned a couple of times you're from Nebraska.

Dan Osborne's running there.

That's a different kind of model.

So he's independent running, but we had him on the show.

And obviously, he's got a lot of progressive views on economic issues in particular.

That's one model.

He ran way ahead of Kamala Harris last time, lost, but there's maybe something there.

There's just a lot of conversation that's been happening out there over the last couple of weeks, which I think is good that this is finally happening on the Democratic side, where it's like, okay,

what exactly do we need to do to win in some of these states, right?

Like, if the Democrats ever want to have more than 52 senators again, they need to have a senator from Nebraska.

It wasn't that long ago they had a senator from Nebraska.

It's not crazy.

Shout out to Ben Nelson.

Yeah, it's not great.

I mean, you know, he didn't vote the way everybody liked all the time, but

it was certainly better having him in there than, you know, having the Rick Pete Ricketts, whoever's doing Trump Lick Spittle stuff that they got in there now.

And so, you know,

that's one side.

There was, you know, obviously there's been kind of back and forth about Ezra Klein saying that maybe going more than that.

You don't want to have me on the

Ezra Klein tip, Tim.

Okay, I'm just saying there's a lot of your some-year-old Bernie pals, like the only path is to do Bernie-style candidates.

Like,

I'm open to any, but like, but people got to talk.

I didn't love when you earlier, you're like, well, it's, it's, you know, I'll sell you a bridge in Alaska and in Article before we the Democrats win the Senate.

It's like, shouldn't they try to win the Senate?

Shouldn't there be a plan?

Shouldn't they try new things?

I think they are trying, but like, there's a difference between trying and then, like, if I think it's actually going to happen this time.

You know, the vice president used to always say publicly, you got to see what can be and burdened by what has been.

But privately, she would always tell us, but you got to know what it is.

And

I

have a radical clarity of what it is, but that doesn't mean we we don't try because we can't get to the progress if people are not trying.

But

I'm not about to lie to people and say, oh, Democrats are going, they have a real good shot of taking the Senate next year.

No,

they could potentially be on track to make a dent.

And if all the stars align.

But what do they need to do?

What do you think they need to do?

What do you think?

You're a red state girl.

What do they need to do?

I mean, Iowa's right there.

Democrats are going to be a little bit more detailed.

I think that they're doing the right thing.

Candidate selection.

this is not a, I'm going to just tell people, you know, Tim, unlike a presidential, these state-based races, state legislative races are very different.

And I think that people like Azure Klein try to apply presidential metrics to Senate and House races and even state legislatures and governors races.

And it goes to show, I can tell the people that have actually worked on those kind of races, one and lost them and the folks that haven't.

Because

you can't be applying presidential metrics to what the freak is going on in North Carolina.

In North Carolina, Democrats have put up a candidate that makes sense, right?

Roy Cooper is a former governor.

He's a former attorney general.

He is somebody that folks have voted for before.

He's somebody that knows the state.

He makes sense.

He is somebody that Democrats and Republicans and maybe some people that find themselves being like independently minded could vote for.

In Iowa, Joni Ernst being out.

For whatever reason, she's out.

We're not going to get into it, but there's a lot going on in there.

For whatever reason, she's out.

Well, don't just leave me hanging.

I'm just saying, you know, they said that, you know, those reports about the inappropriate relationships, that they, they were threatening Joni Ernst with those.

And like, she didn't want to weather a campaign with that on top of the Pete Hex set stuff and everything else.

She didn't think

she could win a primary, let alone go and then go into a general bloodied if she did win, politically bloodied.

So that's why she bowed out.

That's what my Iowa streets tell me.

Okay, my next door neighbors just talking about it.

So now there is some movement in Iowa.

Again, the farmers in Iowa, they are pissed off about what is happening and the kind of candidates that are being put forward.

That is your neighbor.

What does a candidate look like that can win Iowa?

This is my problem.

I think that a lot of times the Democrats are like, okay, well, yeah, we need to win this and then we're going to put up.

I don't want to pick on Jamie Harrison, good guy.

I like Amy McGrath.

She's on MSNBC with me sometime, good person, but they were just generic Democrats.

Right.

But I mean, candidate selection matters.

Correct.

But

what do you think could work in Iowa?

Do you want a Dan Osborne type or a Joe Manchester?

Well, no, there are

three people.

There are three people right now running

who could all potentially win the Senate seat, to be clear in Iowa.

They all make sense.

These are sons and daughters.

Yes, I do think so.

I think that they could wage very competitive campaigns.

Rob Sand, who is right now the only Democrat elected statewide in Iowa, he is running for higher office.

He's saying he wants to be the governor now.

Now, Rob Sand is the only Democrat that people in Iowa have consistently voted for to be in statewide office.

So he has a shot.

Now, do I think Democrats are going to win the Senate seat in Iowa this cycle?

I don't think so.

But I think that the numbers are going to be a lot closer than they were in previous years.

And that means the next Senate seat and the Senate seat, maybe two Senate seats from now, we will see a Democratic senator from Iowa.

I hope we still have a country, though.

Well, same.

When is that?

When is that?

Same, but you asked me about the specific seat.

What year are we in?

Well, 2030, 2032.

Sam,

I think it's a valid concern.

But there are some people that have to be thinking about, okay,

how can we move the needle so that the next time, and I'll give a real example.

In Nebraska, Nebraska currently has a Republican in the second congressional district.

Don Bacon is the representative.

Prior to Don Bacon, a man named Brad Ashford was the representative.

He was a Democrat.

Prior to Brad Ashford, Lee Terry represented that seat since like I been alive.

And the prevailing thought was like, oh, Lee Terry's just always going to have this seat.

Well, a cycle before Brad Ashford ran, a man named John Ewing, who was the Douglas County treasurer, who now serves as the mayor of Omaha, Nebraska, the first African-American mayor who unseat a two-termed Republican, by the way.

He, when he was a county treasurer, ran for Congress.

against Lee Terry.

He got close, but he lost.

The next cycle, folks were like, John, you should think about running again.

And it was John Clyburn that said, Jim Clyburn that said, actually, you should now run again.

You need to get your bearings and come back stronger and see if this is really what you want to do.

Well, the next cycle, Brad Ashford ran.

And because of the groundwork that John Ewing's campaign laid, Brad Ashford beat Lee Terry.

He served in that seat.

But it didn't happen overnight, right?

It was, it was cycles and cycles of organizing and work, of running a candidate that made sense for the district

that had ties to the community, that people could get behind, that they knew that they weren't going to get everything.

Rat Ashford didn't always vote how Democrat, God rest his soul, how Democrats in the state always wanted him to vote, but they got him elected.

And so that is the mentality that folks that do electoral politics, not Ezra Klein that writes about it, okay?

But people that actually do electoral politics like yourself.

I'm going to defend Ezra's honor on this.

Go ahead.

His idea might not be exactly right, but like, it comes from a place of, this is an emergency.

Like, I just, sometimes I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

It's like, what is the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result?

The Democrats have been running the same types of candidates for the Senate in these red states for, you know, 100 years now, and they keep, you know, they keep losing and no progress is being made.

So this is why I'm like, when the populist lefty people get mad at me and they're like, oh, Tim, you just want a moderate like you.

I'm like, no, try it.

I'm okay.

Try, try your strategy.

That's fine with me.

I'm down with Graham Plattner, oyster farmer guy running in fucking Iowa.

They wouldn't be an oyster farmer, you know, soybean farmer or whatever, but like I'm down with that.

But like, let's try something.

And I think that the point that Ezra's making is like, the Democrats are never going to have power in the Senate again, ever, if they don't start trying to win in places like Ohio, Iowa, Texas, Florida that are all up this time.

Right.

But then that means you have to make investments.

And I think that there is a lot to, I mean, let's just be frank.

Again, I think that talking about it in broad strokes sounds lovely, but sure, Ezra is right.

And on that point, you're not going to win unless you try to win some of these seats.

Okay, well, how do you try to win some of these seats?

I go back to a couple cycles ago in North Carolina specifically, Sherry Beasley, who was the Supreme Court, Supreme Court justice in North Carolina.

And that matters because in North Carolina, state Supreme Court justices are elected.

She was elected to the state Supreme Court.

She was the Democrats candidate.

And you know what?

Could not get...

time, energy, or real funds from the Democratic Senatorial Congressional, from the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee.

Chuck Schumer was like, uh, ah, ah.

Okay.

Sherry Beasley, with some investment, with some support, could have won her race.

She would have been the senator from North Carolina.

Right.

And so, yes, I agree.

But when we drill down to it.

Ted Bud, I forget.

Was that race against Tillis or Bud?

Yes.

I forget.

Yeah.

Ted Bud.

But you have to drill down.

And so what my frustration is: people that have, not you, because

you like to give specifics and you've worked in the places so you understand how things work and you're not trying to be pie in the sky.

And when you don't know, you're like, I don't know.

But these other folks that have large microphones that people listen to are just out here spouting this BS that doesn't make any, like, yes, sure.

Democrats are never going to have the Senate again if they don't win some seats in some formerly red or red places or purple places.

But how do you win those seats?

Where is the onus on the Democratic leadership?

Where's the onus on Chuck Schumer?

Why has he never had the answer for why he didn't support Sherry Beasley?

I agree with that.

If we really want to get gully on North Carolina on South Carolina, people didn't want to tell Jim Clyburn no.

Yep.

It sounds very insider-y and inter-politick-y, but that's the reality of the situation.

So if you want to win, you got to understand the nature of electoral politics in all the places across this country, the infrastructure and what it takes to win.

You just don't get to sit on your little podcast and write your little article and say, this is what Democrats need to do.

Maybe they need to run pro-life Democrats.

Joe Biden was a pro-life Democrat.

He was the freaking president of the United States.

He just didn't believe that because he's pro-life, women shouldn't be able to get the health care they need.

Shut the F up.

That's how I feel.

Ish.

And Joe Biden didn't win any of those states.

I'm just saying, but he became the president.

Hold on.

He became the president.

Yeah, but he only won 25 states, Simone.

He only won 25 states.

So if the Democrats won,

this is fine.

It's fine.

But if the Democrats won, that's just the nature of the Senate.

If they won all the states Joe Biden won, they have 50 senators.

If the argument is we need more pro-life, if the argument that some people have made, Ezra Klein being one of them, and I also near tandem plus it and was like, yeah, I think this is right.

We need to open up the aperture for more pro-life Democrats.

It's like, well, hold on, let's back up.

What are we saying?

Because there are pro-life Democrats in the coalition where the, where the line that people have is, are you saying that what somebody personally believes can color the kind of policy that they and the access to health care that women in this country have?

Like, there are real ramifications for what people are talking about.

And if we need more pro-life Democrats, Joe Biden was a pro-life Democrat.

So like,

what are people saying?

Like, I am frustrated because there is a lack of intellectual depth sometimes to the arguments that folks are talking about when we talk about the electoral situation.

Because for somebody like me, a black woman in America, it has been an emergency for a while now.

Yeah, I hear that.

No doubt it's been an emergency for a while now.

Seems like I can't argue with black women in that.

I just keep feeling like, okay, let's act like it.

Let's act like it.

And I mean, mean, I hear you on the podcasters, but I just, this is my message for the strategists, too.

That's why I'm picking on them.

Strategists are good.

It went in some of these states, but like, I think there's a lot, there's a little bit of a lack of creative thinking.

It's just like we're going to go with the obvious candidate in a lot of these places.

And I don't know if we're in a time that we're looking for the obvious candidate.

And I'm putting abortion separate from them.

I mean, I agree with you, but I think that there is, again, candidate selection matters.

But when you have the apparatus, like, let's just be very clear.

If you are a Democrat running for Senate specifically, you you need the support of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee.

You do.

And Chuck Schumer is deciding, really, like in concert with old Brown.

I want Chuck Schumer kind of involved, actually, at all.

Well,

then people need to talk about that.

People have to talk about that, though.

He didn't support Sherry Beasley.

And maybe if he did, Democrats would have another seat in the United States Senate.

But that is the reality of what we are talking about.

There are specifics here.

There are mechanics and logistics and like internal workings that go to how these candidates get picked.

So if folks don't like how the candidates are being picked, we got to call out the structural infrastructure barriers to the kind of people that are getting elevated.

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All right, before I lose you, you mentioned the universities.

We have to mention this because it's so fucking insane.

Right before we got on the New York Times story, nine universities, the Trump administration is shaking them down.

Linda McMahon, the former fake wrestling executive, is shaking down the best universities in the country, and she's dictating to them what they need to be doing.

That's where we're at in this country right now.

I just want to read you a little bit what the deal is that they're pushing.

Deal, quote unquote.

The compact, they call it a compact, actually, excuse me.

What's a more fancy term?

The compact would require colleges to freeze tuition for five years.

Okay, that's all right.

Cap the enrollment of international students, commit to strict definitions of gender, and they would also be required to change their governance structures to prohibit anything that would, and I'm going to quote this, anything that would punish, belittle,

or spark violence against conservative ideas.

Belittle.

These fucking little babies, they want it to be put into the law.

that universities don't get life-saving research grants.

If there is anything that happens on campus that belittles the feelings of the conservative snowflakes,

it is mind-boggling that that is what they're doing.

It is fucking so outrageous.

Anyway, you just get the floor.

I agree.

It's very crazy.

It's also illegal.

I think first and foremost, it's illegal.

And so all of these universities that are being threatened with this, they should sue.

And if past is prologue, they will be rewarded by the courts because it is brazenly illegal what the government is doing.

I, at one point, was a professional fellow.

You know, I've done the Harvard

Institute of Politics program.

I was a fellow there.

I was a fellow at Georgetown last semester.

I was a fellow at USC.

Like, I'm a fellow.

You know, professional fellow.

There has not been a, and I used to do a lot of speaking on college campuses.

There is not a college campus I've been a fellow at, that I've spoken at, university presidents that I have in my previous life consulted with and consulted for, done work for, where the university is not thinking about their,

how to ensure that the students on their campus that are conservative, right, that have a more conservative leaning and bent, ideological bent, that they are not adequately accommodated.

Matter of fact, my experience has been that the administrations, these administrative bodies of these various schools, they actually try to over-index on the conservative students.

They try to

bend over backwards.

And so the idea that on our college campuses across this country, our institutions of higher learning, that conservative students are being ostracized in the classrooms and

by the by the mechanics of the administration of these various entities is laughable.

It is absolutely laughable because it's not happening.

But the narrative, the narrative, narrative is a very powerful thing, as we said earlier.

And I just think that it is easy to say that in the age of like cancel culture and like asking people to use different words, so on and so forth, that people who

maybe have a quote-unquote contrarian view, but nowadays, I guess the contrarian view is is that slavery wasn't all bad, which, in my opinion, I just, I'm not with it, but guess I'm supposed to make space for that.

That the contrarian views are under attack.

And it's like, that's not happening.

And so, because it's not happening, these, these, these administrations, these schools all across the country, they have to stand up and fight back against this administration in the courts because the courts will be on their side.

And I point you to the president of, what is it, George Mason, who is like, I'm not taking it.

No, no, no.

I'm going to take you to court.

No, no, no, no, no.

I point you to the other schools that have decided to fight.

The only way, the only way to win against this administration, the only way to potentially safeguard the protections for the people that you serve, whether you're elected official or the students and the parents that you serve, if you are an institution of higher learning, an organization or a law firm, the clients that you have, the people that work for you, the only way to protect your interests is to push back.

Because this administration, this president, his greatest superpower is actually exhaustion.

And the idea that because so much is coming at you, that you will just get tired and roll over, that you will anticipate,

you anticipate what the fight requires and decide not to do it.

The only way to potentially win is to fight.

That's the only chance we have.

Don't take it, folks.

All right.

We're doing a home at home.

I'm on the weeknight tonight, so people can check me out at msnbc 7 p.m eastern i can check uh simone there every night october 11th we said it you go to msnbc.com slash live 25.

like they got like a dozen msnbc hosts it's the hammerstein ballroom uh it's gonna be fun

it's a weekend so you can come to new york come to new york and just kind of hang out there's i mean looks like i guess even if you have tickets to our event looks like that's a day-long thing that you guys are doing so you could do you could do kind of a day night doubleheader kind of thing correct go see the bulwark in the evening See MSNBC, MS Live in the morning throughout the afternoon.

You might even want to stay until the evening and be a little late to the bulwark, but that's just me.

It'll be a great time.

We've got everybody, as I like to say, the cat.

That evening session is over at 7.30.

You could do both, baby.

You could do both.

I'm trying to tell you.

You're out here.

Weekend in New York City.

That'll be good.

MSNBC.com slash live25.

Go get there.

Get some tickets.

Simone Sanders.

I'll see you in a couple hours.

All right, go.

Thank you.

I always hold space for you.

I always make space space for you

on this podcast.

All right, we'll see you soon.

Girl,

baby, left in Omaha.

She's got too much just going on.

All these options forcing me to find myself.

Why on earth would I ask you for any help?

I was thinking wrong,

yeah.

Already gone,

baby.

I was thinking wrong,

yeah.

Already gone.

Who said it's forever?

You've got to set your free.

I don't have time for this weather.

I let it pour over me.

Cause you're thinking wrong,

yeah.

We're already gone,

baby.

Cause you're thinking wrong,

yeah.

You're already gone.

Just better watch her,

yeah.

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing Jason Brown.

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