Olivia Nuzzi Breaks Her Silence

Enterprise AI is redefining business operations and voice technology leads this transformation.

While Alexis showcases consumer applications, AWS AI delivers enterprise-scale voice solutions that are reshaping customer engagement across industries.

Leverage Amazon's proven AI innovation to transform your customer experience and drive operational excellence. AWS AI, the voice of innovation.

Discover the Alexa story at aws.com/slash slash our dash story.

This week on a very special episode of Health Discovered, we take a closer look at MS.

Every week in the U.S., approximately 200 people are diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.

I grew up with parents that were divorced, and so when it was time for me to find care for these symptoms, it kind of just fell on me.

We'll also address the deeper challenges patients face, like health disparities that delay diagnosis in underserved communities.

Listen to Health Discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

Hello and welcome to a bonus edition of the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
You might have heard of her.

She was Washington correspondent for New York Magazine for a while, and she has a new book out today titled American Kanto. It's Olivia Nootsi.
How are you doing, girl? I'm good. How are you?

Well, I'm doing pretty good. I didn't have to publish a newsletter today where I discussed all the ways my book rollout was going awry,

highlighting the fact that Monica Lewinsky keeps checking in on me. So, I don't know.
She's so nice. She's so nice.

She's... incredibly kind.

But yeah,

that's a good indicator that the public, it's sort of the Lewinsky scale of kindness. It's like the Richter scale for public shaming,

I think.

So,

yeah, that,

if your agent tells you, I love you, doesn't explain why they're texting you that. That doesn't seem like a victory text.
Has Monica offered any particular nuggets of wisdom from her experience?

I don't want to violate her any more than the country has

done for so long, but she's been really, really, really kind, And I'm very appreciative. In some ways, she benefited from being pre-internet, really.

A little bit of a different animal. Well, but it was sort of the first internet-based shaming, right? When you think about it, probably.
I think I wasn't cognizant at the time, but.

Yeah, so I guess it was drudge. It's a little different than the minute-by-minute, the second-by-second, blow-by-blow, that you're into.

Yeah.

I want to

start

saying to you,

when we decide to do this, I just kind kind of want to like pretend like I just bumped into you at a hotel and ask like all the burning questions I have about how this came to pass because we haven't like talked all that much.

I was a little bit from time to time texting over the past year.

And I think my first question would just be like,

why did you decide to do this, right? Like, why did you write this? You could have just, I don't know. I mean, you did kind of disappear for a year.

You could have wrote under a nom de plume, could have done anything. You decided to do this.
What was the, why did you do it?

Well, I just, I was writing.

I'm always writing. Like, I remember when my dad died, I came home and that night I sat there and I wrote his obituary.
And like, for me, I think it's just a way of establishing sort of

the contours of reality, you know, to

get down

everything that can be stated for certain and have a better idea that way of what cannot be stated for certain. And so I guess it's just what I'm always

doing.

And

then

what I was writing started to take on this kind of shape, and I had a sense of what I thought maybe

it was becoming or revealing. And I sent some of it to my editor,

Joffy, at Avid Reader Press, and he just responded, I get it. And that was sort of all I needed to hear.
And

I'm not much of a planner, if you can believe it.

And

there was no like sitting down, like, oh, what do I, what do I do? Right. There were a lot of people telling me, oh, just, just keep going, right?

Cover the end of the election, take some other assignment. Like, be shameless, because everyone else involved is shameless and you should be shameless too.
But I think shame is really important.

And I had fucked up, right? I did something wrong. Like those ethics rules exist for a reason.
They're really good rules. And I had violated that.

And it struck me that like, it's not like you just wake up one day and you make a big mistake, right?

It had to have been

many imperceptible errors that like contributed to really just a a malformed perspective that led to that type of mistake.

And I took it really seriously, you you know, and I thought it was like this big, important

spiritual event in my life that I didn't want to just pretend that it didn't happen. I didn't,

at first, it's like an intoxicating thought, you know, like, oh, could I just do that? And then immediately it's just, no, of course I can't do that and live out myself. And so I just sort of

wrote and thought and tried to like stay out of

trouble and stay out of trouble.

I don't know if you achieved that part.

Well, but I did, but that's the thing. It's like I don't want to allow

someone else's

chaos that they're stirring up to be put on me. You know, I did, right? I wrote this book.
It's about

America. It's about ideas.
It's about the last 10 years in America and reality distorting.

What other people are talking about opportunistically in this discourse is not what this book is about. And so

that's someone else's trouble. I mean,

there's so much there. I have like 18 follow-up questions, so I'll just kind of take them one at a time.
I think you're kind of pitching the, there's this, let's look at Letters to a Young Poet.

It's Rilke, where he says, I write because I must. Like, there's that kind of element.
I write, that's just because that's what I do.

You're not pitching it. Yeah, pitching it.
No, not pitching it. And there's that kind of reasoning for doing this, which I makes sense.

In the book, you write about the editor that you had told you that you should try to write your way out of at near magazine problem write your way at New York magazine that was presented to me as sort of um

a way to keep my job right rather than what happened that I if I wrote some sort of tell-all yeah yeah but this doesn't really feel like that right and this like in some ways you you tell some stuff about um rfk which we'll get into and you tell some stuff about your life and and you reflect but it doesn't feel like you're trying to write your way out of trouble no i mean

in some way, I think I wrote myself further into it, right?

Because I revealed things that people didn't even know I did wrong, but that it felt to me like important if I was going to write a book like this.

I wanted people to, I guess, know what they were dealing with.

Or I didn't see any value in trying to like spin it in some way to make me look good. There was no me looking good

in that situation, right?

And

I think I'm always trying to just talk to the smartest person

in the room, right? To talk to

the person reading who is,

to me, smartest means the most open-minded, right? The most interested in or capable of holding nuance,

the most curious.

And

I knew that there would be like a tabloid cannibalization and a media like navel-gazing

interpretation, and that all of that would probably be, you know, like it typically is.

But I was just writing the book that,

but I felt I had a responsibility to write creatively and spiritually and like with my time here. And I took really seriously, I got very upset at a certain point when they sent the books to print.

It occurred to me just

how

serious it is to

kill so many trees to print your book. And I got very upset.
And every time I would ask Simon ⁇ Schuster about,

well, how many trees exactly is that?

They would send me this propaganda back about how many trees Simon ⁇ Schuster plants every year. And I was like, well, I didn't ask how many you planted.
I asked how many you killed.

But

I just, I didn't want to waste waste anybody's time or waste any trees.

And I took that really seriously. And like, I, it's not an effort to

like

brand myself in any particular way, you know?

I went back and rewatched. You interviewed me after I wrote my book, which was a big kind of reflection on

my failings. I love that book.
Thank you. And I rewatched the interview just to kind of see what we talked about, like refresh my memory.

And you were kind of struck by by how bleak i was like and about the state of affairs like bleak about you know politics about washington like kind of bleak about myself and um

your book wasn't really that bleak like really i mean like there are bleak parts you know but like you really try it feels like to to

you know talk about what you got out of this and like you talk about god and spirituality way more than i remember you talking about it.

Maybe you just don't talk about it with me because I'm a heathen gay. I don't know.
But

I don't know. I guess my question is going through this whole like terribleness, you've now mentioned spirituality twice in this podcast.
Like, do you feel like

you've found something?

Yeah, I'm going to rebrand to like be a trad wife for somebody.

I don't know. There's a lot of God.
You're capitalizing God in the book. You'll catch me in Etsy Pack.
No, I mean,

I never had really written anything personal before. You know,

the work was always subjective, right? Because that type of work is subjective.

But it was it was rarely personal. Like occasionally I would write in, like something would happen, right? My mom happened to die when I was with Joe Biden at a hospital, not the right hospital.

And, you know, I worked that into the piece. There's a little bit there.

But typically when I,

I always thought that if I was really in a piece, it was a process failure. And I guess this has been the ultimate process failure.
And so I'm in the book a lot, right?

But I had never

really

written about those things. And I guess I'm trying to think of how to explain it.
I guess I felt like

with the rapturous events of last year and with the big crash out,

there

was an enormous opportunity before me that I shouldn't waste. And that opportunity was about

figuring out

what I had done wrong and how it had come to be that I had made this mistake and assessing what had gone wrong and

taking it seriously. And if I did that right and if I made it through this dishonor in an honorable way, if I didn't try to use anyone as a human shield,

if I didn't try to say, oh, you know, it wasn't so bad or it wasn't a big deal,

then hopefully I'd be able to proceed

better than I was living before and that I had led me to failure. Right.

And so I guess that's where that comes from.

Like, how hard did you find it to do that, to insert yourself into this and to write about yourself? And when you, I'm struck, like, look, every.

I guess maybe not every single person, but many of us, myself included, loved your like political profiles.

And there's always this kind of irreverence to them and kind of a wry, dispassionate assessment of the silliness and the vepishness of it all. Veepishness.
And yeah, right.

And that's hard to do when you're like looking at yourself and assessing your own mistakes. And you want to take that seriously.

I'm wondering, as you've seen some of the reviews of the book and stuff, like some people's criticism is that that's kind of hard to bridge, right?

That if you're going to look at everybody else kind of like a mocking, irreverent lens, and then look at yourself very seriously, like it's hard to bridge those two. Did you struggle with that?

I don't think I'm looking at, well, I think I mock myself rather a lot, right? I mean, I published a list today, a day of publication of my book about

everything that's gone wrong with publication of this book, right?

But I don't think that I look at people in

the way that you describe. I mean, maybe mocking was probably unfair, but irreverent.
Like there was a there was a puckishness to it.

There's a puckishness to your writing about other people, you know? Yeah, I suppose. I mean, I don't know.
I don't,

that's kind of sounds like not my business if people feel that way about the book. You know, I wasn't really trying to do anything in this book other than write something honest

and be honest about my experiences and how it felt and

what had happened and how

I was kind of putting it in context. And I didn't see a way around it, right?

Like it's a necessary context from my perspective this last year and from the perspective and the vantage point from which I was writing this book was on the periphery pretty far from the story I've been covering geographically and in every other way.

And it was that perspective that allowed me to

complete this thought that I had begun forming when I first started writing about Donald Trump 10 years earlier.

And it was also that perspective that allowed me, I felt like, I don't know if you felt like this, but I felt like I was

covering this world

and associating with people in this world for a really long time. And I

had just ceased to be able to see it clearly in some ways.

Like I just was

too,

it was too familiar. And I write about

that, about how something can become, you know, so familiar that it's foreign. And it really wasn't until I

fled and

ended up

on the wrong side of the country at the end of the election

that I felt like I could get a hold of it.

Yeah, I mean, I obviously felt that way. And

I don't know, like, one way out of it for me

was

I just decided that, like, the only way to deal with all of the

bullshitting and all of the unreality of this kind of world that Donald Trump has created was to just

be like completely myself and just be totally radically candid about what I think about it and fuck it, like, whatever, and the world be damned. And it's kind of hard to do that as a journalist.

I'm not a journalist, right? So we had a different challenge. And I felt like that was freeing for me.

And I wonder, you know, for you, as you kind of looked at this process, like whether like you felt like you were able to do that. Like you were able to like be.
It sounds like you think I wasn't.

Well,

it's okay. I guess here's what I'd say.

I don't know if you were, if you weren't, I guess would be my answer to the question, because I think that like the way that the book is written, there are parts of it that are like so beautiful and elegant and interesting.

And they are, you know, it piques curiosity in various ways. You know, you write it so like the politicians don't have names.

You know, at times like you write about the politician and the MAGA general and stuff. And so there is this element to it that's still a little like mysterious, right?

And there are parts where you're like, I mean, just unbelievably vulnerable, like talking about your parents' death and talking about RFK.

But yet, like at the end of it, I still kind of felt like,

I don't know what she really thinks about all of this that has happened that she's covered for the last 10 years. Maybe she's trying to tell me and I just can't, I can't quite grasp it.

I think, you know, there's that cliché to show and not tell when you write. And I have always tried to abide by that.

And I felt here,

I mean, I think that my worldview is reflected in all manner of ways that I write about,

you know, immigration, the border, or that I write about January 6th. I mean, so much of the book really comes back to January 6th.
I don't think it's like a mystery.

And I think the details that I include and the kind of

that form this portraiture of the characters that

you refer to,

I think

however you feel about it as a reader at the end is correct.

You know, I can't tell you how to feel and I wouldn't, but I can tell you what I experienced and what I saw and what I heard and what it felt like.

Yeah, and I guess that is what I was sort of trying to get back to with the question about Rilke

kind of writing because you must versus like trying to write out of this, right? Because that was a choice, right? Like you...

you could write a book that was that had these various pastis and and that that you you kind of expressed how you felt about the moments and leave people still a little bit,

the mystery that comes with that kind of writing, right? Like, or you could have ripped the band-aid off and said, no, you've done a real tell-all, right?

You could have ripped the band-aid off and said, no, this is what really happened. This is what I think about

this is what I'm saying. But I did.
I did rip the band-aid off emotionally, right?

I don't think that there was any real value in sharing my opinions about things, right? But my assessments and my descriptions and

the way that I reveal character, I do think is valuable, right? That's the sort of privilege afforded to people who cover this sort of stuff in general,

or the kind of cursed privilege, I suppose, of having been as stupid as I was and getting admired in a situation which my vantage point was different than it should have been, right?

Is that I

have a perspective informed in ways that other people could not possibly be informed. And I have a responsibility to share about that.
I thought there was value in that.

I didn't think that there was value

for anything other than the immediate discourse, right? The 24-hour discourse in making big judgments. I think that the details I include and the portraits that I paint are the judgment, you know?

Right, guys, I'm not a big wallet purchaser. I've probably had, I don't know, three wallets my entire adult life.

And I had a little while where I had a Costanza wallet going. Then I decided to keep nothing in my wallet.
You know, I've just, I've been all over the map.

And when we got this new sponsor, Ridge, I have to admit, I'm just going to admit right off. I was a little skeptical.
It's a little different than my other wallets. It's sleek.

It has a little bit of heft to it. It's a little more masculine than I self-identify.
As it turns out, my skepticism was unwarranted.

And now you can join me and you can say hello to Ridge 2.0, the most refined version of the Ridge wallet. Everything's better on 2.0.
It's 10% lighter.

They found the perfect balance between, you know, sturdiness and it's in like the boxing category. It's like a feather weight.
Strong and sturdy, but also featherish.

They made it more modular with improved catch straps, money clips, and the air tag attachment because you're a loser. I'm also a loser of things.

So you can ensure that you're going to find your wallet if you, you know, leave it on the table at the bar for one example. That definitely didn't happen to me.

But it's got over 50 colors and styles to choose from. You can even get a wallet that features every NFL, MLB, or college team.

You know, we can now wear our Tigers stuff proudly now that Brian Kelly's gone and we got Lane Kiffen. Plus all Ridge wallets have a new industry leading built-for-life warranty.

So for a limited time, Ridge is having their huge holiday sale. Head to ridge.com to get up to 47% off your order.
This is by far the biggest discount they've given all year.

That's ridge.com for up to 47% off your order during their biggest sale of the year. After your purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them.

Please support our show and tell them we sent you.

I think that what some folks would say, particularly with from like the journalism lens, the questions would be like not like, oh,

I'm looking for Olivia Nitzi's punditry on every single thing that HHS has done, right? But more like,

do we exactly know like the extent of what happened, right? Like one of the stories that's come up, for example, that's in the book, you write about

when I forget if what magazine, it was either New York or New York magazine, who was going to write about the bear story, where Bobby had

taken a bear off the side of the road and left it in Central Park, I guess. And you said that you had like kind of

yeah, as you do, right? I had a lot of follow-up questions about that, like when he washed his hands and stuff, but like that's kind of for another podcast, but

because he he says he gets on a plane after, and I'm like, but poor person sitting next to him.

But you talk about how you kind of like figured out for him that like that story was going to run and you talked to him about it and then gave him some advice on how to handle it.

Then you didn't take the advice. And like

that all was happening when you were still covering the campaign. Right.

And so like that question of like, you know, for people, and you're talking about telling, like, how much like, were you giving him advice on how to, you know, were you helping him?

I write about that in the book, about, you know when he would ask my opinion or ask for advice my approach was socratic mostly right and i would just help him talk it out um but and that anytime i gave prescriptive advice he never took it right um but i i didn't really i didn't view my role as telling him what to do

like i as unbelievable as it is uh i loved him right and i cared about him um and

i didn't

you know, I didn't think that,

I just didn't think it was my place to tell him what to do.

And I wouldn't have wanted to tell him what to do anyhow.

But I also, I think I was just operating under this delusion that because he was so on the periphery, right? Because what he was doing seemed so irrelevant.

And he was, his polling was so low and it was getting lower, right?

In the time from when I had written about him um i think the polling went from like a one-off 20 poll down to like three percent on average um and

so i it didn't feel like you know the one time for whatever it's worth the one time it came up at new york magazine as you know someone was working on something and how was i you know could i help them like I sent them to the campaign.

I also sent them to the DNC, to Liz Smith, right, who was running the campaign against him.

I gave insight that was not helpful at all. And

on balance affected it neutrally or negatively.

But I didn't, it didn't come up really otherwise because nobody really cared that other than when it would reach the level of meme that he that he was running.

And so I think I was able to kind of keep this deluded perspective that it was like just this private thing that was so irrelevant that it wasn't going to pose any sort of problem. And And then,

lo and behold, it unfurled in this way where it just directly collided with the main event that I was covering. Right.
And

I think that's like, again, where this is long after you profile them, but you're still, as you say, you're covering the race.

Like you get to the point you talk about in the book where he's like deciding who to endorse. And you're kind of like, you're talking back and forth about this.

And I think he says it makes him feel nauseous to endorse Biden, nauseous to endorse Trump.

And I think when you're, I think when you're you're in the, you know, it was

the sort of revelation of him

to me as the person that I would come to think of as the politician really starts there where

when you've been in the wilderness for so long, right, when you have been irrelevant and you have not

been invited

to any inner circle

and you have to fight to be heard or you're kind of you're disinvited from things or deplatformed or whatever when you are suddenly

invited in

when you're suddenly being cheered for I don't it seemed to me that it activated this

part of the personality that just it didn't matter where the cheering was coming from it it just mattered

that it felt good to be cheered. And

it was kind of, it was astonishing to watch. And it has remained so.
But in some ways, you're like wrapped up in that.

And there is this, you talk about like the reality distortion field, but like you were writing at some point about how like, I think you wrote, I was proud of him because I believed he believed the decision was the best means to be of service to others.

Like the decision was going to endorse Trump. And like you'd covered Trump for nine years.
Like

some of you had to know that that was not going to be a way for him to serve others by going to work for Donald Trump.

I also wrote about how

in helping him talk through the decision, right, I wrote about how,

in my view, all of the perils of endorsing Trump, right?

All of the perils of trying to work with Trump. That was all the case, obviously.
It was also the case that because he has no beliefs, Trump, right?

And because he has no principles, and because he really just orients himself around power, around celebrity,

it is a malleable situation, or it's porous, rather, right?

And the best example that I could think of was what Kim Kardashian did with criminal justice reform, right?

And so I, in talking it through,

you know, that was the sort of like, sure, she stood next to him, right? She risked ridicule and being made a fool of, but she did manage to

get a nonviolent offender's prison term commuted. She did manage to

help enact the First Step Act. She did manage to at least elevate this conversation at the federal level about something that I think was good.

So the idea that there's never an opportunity, I think Trump's lack of any belief system can be for someone with the correct motivations and who knows what they are doing, can be an opportunity.

But do you think he had the correct motivation for that? In that instance, right? But it didn't work out that way. No.

Right. No, absolutely not.
In retrospect. At the time, though, at the time, though, like, I write, I believed in him and I believed him.
And that's not,

there's no, it's not a positive thing for me to reveal, right? It's, it's just the truth. Right.
So this is the part I'm trying to process. Yeah.
So like you keep thinking the love part.

And I hate to do this like a high school thing, but I just, I'm like trying to understand it. It's like, did, did you, were you, did you kiss him?

Did you kiss him? I'm not doing this type of thing. Like,

I write about it in the book. And like, I, I just say, just no.
I'm just trying to understand. Look, we all

write that type of book, right? I didn't.

I'm not looking for, I don't, I don't want to like a list of the, like, all the, anything that you did with Bobby. I'm just trying to understand, like, you say you loved him.

But, like, we all, I deal with this.

Like, I'm, this is not with somebody that was trying to be Secretary of Health and Human Services, but I could, I can think back in the day when I was kissing boys and I'd like to think that I was in love with somebody,

and then you would go and you'd have a night, and you'd wake up the next morning and you're like, this was crazy. I thought I was falling in love with this person.
This person's insane, actually.

Like, I didn't, I didn't know what I was talking about. I was infatuated.
It's like, that's what I'm trying to understand.

Like, looking back on it, like, do you feel like you really were in love with him or like you just were infatuated and caught up in it?

I,

you know, I think we were, we were both alone a lot, right? We were both on the road a lot. I was avoiding

trying to figure out what I was doing in my personal life. I wasn't happy.
I was being a coward about it, right?

And,

you know, I think he didn't really have anyone who wasn't working for him that he could talk to about what he was dealing with. And I guess it was kind of formed of

that mutual isolation.

The question that I,

it's like, were my feelings real if he was not real? Right. Right.
If I, if I, and no, I don't think so. Yeah.

And so that's like the part that I'm trying to do. But at the time, but I'm writing about the, at the time, right? I'm writing about these things at the time.

And so it was important to me, like my perspective is, is different now, right? And I also, I know things now that I did not know then. And I have, I just have more information now.

But it was important to me to be honest about what I was feeling then and what it felt like then and to not rewrite that based on my present interpretation of it.

When I'm writing about those events at that time during that campaign,

I'm just writing about what happened and what it felt like.

I'm not rendering a judgment about that. And I'm not either.
What I'm trying to get to is I'm trying to tie it into like, you're also writing about what happened after, right?

Like after he betrays you, after he leaks about you, after he ghosts you.

And at that point, like if you look back on a campaign where at some points you were like giving him advice and

running down information for him, like, was it just he was using you? Possibly. Possibly, but

I reveal those things, right? Like that's, I guess, maybe we just have different styles. Like that's my way of

telling you what I think. Yeah, we certainly have different styles and that's good because we're supposed to be different.
But I'm like mad. I'm madder at him than you are.
I'm like, I'm mad at him.

I'm like, fuck you, RFK, fuck the way you treated Olivia, and fuck you what you're doing right now, honestly.

And like, when I'm in the book, like, you are hard on yourself, you're hard on some other people.

I, there are more things that I think you could reveal about him, I would assume, that you've chosen not to. And if he betrayed you,

why not reveal the truth about him? I think I did. I mean, the fact that you had that reaction tells me that

I gave you enough information. But have you given us enough information that is in the public interest, I guess, is my question, right? Like,

and the New York Times asked you if he had texted you, if you had released them, like, shouldn't you like, shouldn't you just empty the clip? Is what I'm saying?

Like, shouldn't you give people everything that you have so that we're not left to kind of like

wonder? I think people have taken from me quite a lot over this process, right? It's like, how much more do I have to violate myself?

Right. And this book is not about him.

No, no, no, but you are. You are, actually.
Right. And I had to weigh

what can I tell you and what should I tell you, right?

That is in the public interest, that is not about the immediate discourse.

What is important for people to understand about this?

that

is not coming from my fear, from my ego, right? But that's also responsible. And

I talked about what I felt like only I could talk about, right? As it relates to

anything else, it's like a complicated question where you get into what's the responsible way to handle information that you might be privy to when your conflict might

render it discredited, right? Sure. And it's a complicated question and like one I have a lot to say to you privately, but like, you know.

And he's the Secretary of Health and Human Services. Like, I would, I guess my point is, I'm not, this is what I'm not trying to take from you.

Like, I don't, I don't care about your love life with any person in the private or otherwise. And if you want to gossip with me over brunch, I'm happy to do that.

Like in this case, we can do that.

Yeah, sure. Over dinner, over whatever, happy hour, late night.
I'm open. I'm not a big brunch fan anymore either, myself.
I just like to fit into stereotypes. But like,

he's now the Secretary of Health and Human Services. Like, you kind of allude in the book that he's doing drugs.
Like, is he doing drugs?

I mean, I tell you what I felt like if I could tell you responsibly in the book about that, right? I talk about him telling me that he

is doing some drugs.

You know, I didn't administer any drugs, so

I can only tell you so much.

But I tell you what I, you know, what I think you should know about that.

That's the information that I had about that, right? Him telling me that,

this person who says that he's sober, right?

And

he was telling me privately that, in fact, he was not sober and he was hiding it not just from the public, but from his own wife, among other things.

And

I write that in the book because I think it was in the public interest to do so. Right.
Right. You mentioned TMT, but like, is he doing other drugs? Is he doing ketamine? Is he doing...

I mean, I think I write in the book that I had asked him about another drug I heard that he was doing and he had, you know, emphatically denied it.

But I can't say that I make much of his emphatic denial of anything. Sure.
You also say at a time, like, you're afraid of him? Were you actually afraid? Like, feeling a threat.

Well,

you were told that his bodyguard

was a dangerous person and that there were

threats and

he had a temper and

during the key period where after he'd endorsed Trump, where this all comes out, obviously he's menacing you. He doesn't want you to come public with information.

That's pretty alarming for somebody that's the secretary, again, of Health and Human Services.

I mean, I've wrote about my experience as honestly as possible

in a way that I thought served the public interest and just would be of use, maybe, right? But it's not for this immediate discourse.

And I think that there's like a lot of, there's this enormous appetite for this tell-all, right? And for

something that would

would be satisfying, I guess, to people who

want to watch others get torn to shreds. But I just, I didn't have any interest in, I didn't think that was going to be worth anyone's time.

And I never would have, I would just never do something like that, right? Like, I wrote something that is about all of this is relevant insofar as it's the necessary context for a reader, right?

About who they're dealing with here as their narrator, right? I have the responsibility to be honest about that. And it also

factors in to my broader understanding of this 10-year period of Trump's rise rise to dominance, right?

Where reality just seems to be distorting, kind of sprawling out from the center around Trump. And my job was to talk to monstrous people, including Donald Trump, right?

And to make sense of them and translate for people who would never or could never do that. And

a lot got blurred.

And so that experience

with him that we're talking about, I think is just an important,

it's important context. And it was an important event in my life.

And it was important for me to be honest about it in this book. And it factored into this broader story about the distortion of reality.

The holiday season can be pretty stressful. How's it the holiday season already? I don't know.
But if you're like me, you're traveling, you're working your ass off, you also have got to,

you know, purchase presents, especially if you have kids and you've got to purchase extra presents. We're not going to say why.

And so when you need to slow down at night and actually relax, but not have a hangover the next day, you can turn to Souls Out of Office Gummies.

It's a perfect balance of CBD and THC that helps me and my husband and other people in my life find calm and peace of mind. Souls Wellness brand that believes feeling good should be fun and easy.

It specializes in delicious hemp drive THC and CBD products designed to boost your mood and help you unwind.

Their best-selling out-of-office gummies were designed to prove a mild, relaxing buzz, boost your mood, and enhance creativity and relaxation.

And if you like their out-of-office gummies, go to what I actually prefer, which is the out-of-office beverage, a refreshing, alcohol-free alternative that's perfect for winding down on the couch or socializing with friends or...

Spacing out for a little while, if that's something that you need in your life. So take advantage of Soul's Black Friday to Cyber Monday deal right now.

For a limited time, get 40% off your entire order. Go to get soul.com and use the code thebulwark.
That's getsoul.com. Promo code TheBulwark for 40% off.

Don't miss their best deal of the year right now.

I want to get to the broad story about the distortion of reality.

I just want to make this one more point about RFK just in the hopes that you can maybe provide perspective on this because I can understand like being in your shoes.

I've been in your, not your shoes, Lord knows, but, you know, know, if you want, you can burn,

I could, I might, uh, but firestorms, you know, and and it becomes that is reality distorting, right?

People are shitting on you, and like, and I think that there are people out there that just want to hear every prurient detail of your life, there are people out there that like want to see you fail, there are people out there that like are mad at you for various things, and and and I and I can understand how one might jumble that with like, I think that there are people out there that have that are legitimately enraged about Bobby because he has, like, you know, they view his views on vaccine as resulting in childhood deaths.

We have, since he's been in there, we've gotten rid of USAID. He's canceled funding for MNRA research.
He's purged expert scientists from the government, massive cuts to NIH research.

I mean, like, there are people that look at him and see him as a monster. And so

I'm trying to channel the frustration that they might have that you would say, well, I have other information, you know, that I'm not going to do a tell-all tell-all about everything about him.

It's like, why not?

Well, but I shared everything that I felt I responsibly could share, right? And I also,

in this book, right, in this context,

I told

the most honest story that I could possibly tell.

And

I don't think

it's hard to have this conversation in public. It's like I, because it's just

Yeah.

I'm trying to think of how to phrase this. For instance,

the person I write about is the man I did not marry, right?

He...

Can we just say how it is for people? Do you want me just to say it? Or

should we just leave it like that? It's your show.

I think we're talking about Ryan.

She's referring, for folks who are trying to follow the character, she's referring to Ryan Lizza, who's written about this. But

he has presented his harassment of me, right, in this humiliation campaign as some sort of crusade that's in the public interest, right? That somehow the country will be saved

by him

writing some combination of fan fiction and revenge porn, right?

And

he

alluded to or claimed that he was in possession of some explosive information somehow from me, unclear,

that related to the assassination attempt on Donald Trump.

Right. And I was just thinking, let's say if that were true, it's not true, by the way, but if that were true,

the only responsible way for him to handle that information as a journalist, he would know this, would be to quietly pass it off to an organization that does not have his conflicts, right?

Because his conflicts make it so that that information could be readily dismissed, right?

Or that it is tainted by the context that that information would appear in, which would be this campaign of vengeance, right? This kind of suicide bombers manifesto that he's been publishing.

That, to me, tells you all you need to know about whether or not there is serious information in the public interest that he is in possession of that's going to be explosive, right?

Because

it would not be responsible to reveal it that way, right? And so I think it's just, it's tough to talk about because you've got to make different calculations about different types of information.

I shared in this book what I thought was mine to share,

what related to my experience, what I

felt that I could state for certain.

and what I felt related to this broader story about the distortion of reality

amid Trump's rise

and the distortion of my reality, right?

And

I think it's worth people's time.

If people want to talk about their ideas about the book or

what their ideas about the author or their ideas about what the book should have been instead, that's up to anyone who wants to do that.

whatever you know i i'm not um gonna tell anyone how to think or feel about anything but

that's not, you know,

my hope is that the actual book that I wrote

will be assessed on its merits.

Yeah. I,

just for the record, found what he did by trying to tease for subscriptions the notion that you had some secret information about a conspiracy related to the Butler shooting in order to get Beluinon people to sign up to be really, really gross.

Among other grotesque things. Yeah.

There have been others, but yeah, that one in particular got my goat. The point, though, that you make, though,

is like, why doesn't he hand over information to a neutral reporter?

I think that that would be a fair question people to ask of you, like, particularly not less now about the book, but like during that period between when he, RFK endorsed Trump and the election.

Like, in theory, there could have been time you could have.

Well, you have no idea what I did or didn't do, first of all, but

in that, but in that period, I

that period, that was at the end of August, right, of 2024.

By this next month is sort of, I mean, I write about it in the book, but the next month is sort of spent

with

my

world cracking up, right? And then with this scandal breaking out in public, and then with me

fearing for my life, my

privacy,

and

fleeing and

then ending up out here and spending this year

trying to

lay low and think and write. I hear you,

Olivia. And I just like, this is just with love that like the guy ends up getting nominated to be HHS secretary.
You've seen uphand how like how he how he lies and manipulates people.

You've seen it firsthand. You have evidence.
He's getting nominated. And you write in the book that like you were you were praying that God would use him as a force for good.
It's like,

I mean, by that point, it was pretty obvious that God was not going to use him as a force for good, was it not?

You still pray.

Well, but there was no indication.

It wasn't like I was praying that he was going to use him for a force for good, dot, dot, dot, parentheses, but I knew he was not because he's a lying son of a bitch who, who is like perpetrating a fraud on the public.

Like, that wasn't in there.

That part wasn't in there. So, like,

do you see it clearly? But, like, so you could have done something to turn maybe we pray differently. But, but, could you have tried, could you have prayed for good, but also tried to stop it?

You could have tried to stop it.

What do you, what are you asking me exactly?

He was trashing you. He's being nominated to be HHS secretary.
His reign, I think, as you said in the newsletter today, you agree with, has not been good.

Like, you had information that you could have shared. Like, look, Matt Gates got denied.
Like,

it's possible RFK wasn't even a Republican. It's possible that these senators could have not

confirmed him and you didn't share anything about him. Why? Like, why? Did you still love him?

You're just, I don't know how to responsibly handle this on camera camera with you here.

You're just,

I'm writing in that scene that you're talking about about how I felt privately,

about my private reaction, how I felt privately.

Right? So, but you had acted public, you'd acted to help him. Like you admit in the book, you'd acted to help him over the course of the campaign.

And so, like, once you realized that he was screwing you over,

you didn't take any counteraction. You just let him, right, walk over you.

You're reading about it now.

I also, you know, I lost my job. Well, but now he's been, now he's in there and he's doing a lot of bad stuff.
Like, don't you look at that and think, like, do you look at that?

I guess when you're saying that you have the distance now that have clarity, like, do you see, do you see clearly what he's doing now? Yeah, I agree with you. It's, what was your phrasing?

It hasn't been good. I agree with that.
I think

that's the correct assessment. But i um

i don't really know how to what to do with the question that you're asking me because it's making a lot of assumptions um

and and i i just well it's not it's just it's not making assumptions it's just like you said you helped them right during the campaign

am i right about it i write about yeah about what i did wrong yeah

And so like once you've done that, like you didn't,

you know, there,

like you, you cease to be, have, to have become like a journalistic actor.

That was my job, right? I was fired. I was fired and I was in hiding and I was afraid.

I was terrified. Right.
Yeah.

Of what?

I mean, I write in the book of about,

you know, I was terrified of

the man I did not marry. And I was very worried about people knowing where I was.
And

can we pause this?

Yeah, we can pause it.

Sorry.

Hey, y'all, at this point in the conversation, we took a beat, gathered ourselves, and

got back together for the rest of the convo. So please stick around for Olivia Nootsi on her new book, American Canton.

Hi, I'm Martine Hackett, host of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a production from Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenix.

This season, we're sharing powerful stories of resilience from people living with MG and CIDP.

Our hope is to inspire, educate, and remind each other that even in the toughest moments, we're not alone. We'll hear from people like Corbin Whittington.

After being diagnosed with both CIDP and dilated cardiomyopathy, he found incredible strength through community.

So when we talk community, we're talking about an entire ecosystem surrounding this condition, including, of course, the patients at the center that are all trying to live life in the moment, live life for the future, but then also create a new future.

Listen to Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You really want to be better with your finances.

You try to put money away in savings. You look for deals.
You wrote out a budget once a long time ago. yet you still overdraft from time to time and you still have debt.

The truth is, managing money is not easy, but Rocket Money can help. Rocket Money shows you exactly what you're spending every month.

From there, the app helps you make a budget that meets your financial goals. The app even gives you real-time alerts when you're about to go over your budget so you don't spend too much.

With Rocket Money, you can also see all of your subscriptions at a glance and cancel the ones you don't want right from the app.

Rocket Money can even try to get you a refund for some of the money you wasted. Plus, you can use the Smart savings feature to start putting more money away.

Rocket Money analyzes your accounts to determine the optimal time to stow away cash without going over your budget. Our members report that the Rocket Money app saved them more than $700 a year.

Getting better with money doesn't have to be a pipe dream. Rocket Money can make it a reality.
Go to rocketmoney.com/slash cancel or download the app from the Apple app or Google Play Stores.

I mean, a lot of my whole,

you know, the last year was just

my whole life was destabilized, right?

And it also just, there was,

I was not in motion for the first time in really since I was like 18, right? Because I'd been working my whole life and I had been,

you know, one of the things about being a political reporter that's so great is that you don't have to justify

the stakes are always apparent, right? Like you never have to think, like, is what I'm doing important? Like, am I, am I, uh, you know, do I have purpose? Right?

It's inherent to the task, and that's an enormous burden lifted, I think. Um, and then all of a sudden, I'm

still, and I'm dealing also just with like

a lot of things and people I thought that I knew

who

were, it turned out

not who I thought that they were. And I could not predict behavior successfully.

And I was just

scared. Yeah.
I hear you. And I don't, I'm trying, I'm sorry.
Because of the stakes is why. No, no, no, no.

It's because of the stakes of what you're talking about that I'm like,

I'm sticking with this. That's why I, you can ask whatever.
Anyway, and so I just like,

you said you left,

you're in hiding, you're scared.

Again, he's a man of important huge responsibility right now. Like, if there's another public health crisis, he's in charge.
I'm just trying to just ask directly, like, were you scared of him?

Like, were you scared of Bobby? I mean,

it's dangerous for a woman to keep any kind of diary, generally speaking.

I think history has shown that.

But,

you know, I Kennedy history has shown that also.

I was just scared in general, and I felt like I felt very vulnerable in general. And,

you know, it was very clear to me by

the time I made it out here

that

no one was going to protect me, right? That

it seemed as though no one really had any boundaries. as it related to

utilizing me or brutalizing me um for their own benefit um and it seems uh recent events suggests that it that's still the case um

and so i was i was scared in in general and um

i um

it was uh a strange time you know

but i also think i take it you know that's your criticism that i that i don't come out you know guns blazing um in this book is fair and you know, that's totally legitimate that that's your reaction.

But writing about this at all is an enormous risk that I've assumed.

And

you know, I realized that there's a certain faction or many factions of people who are just never going to be happy with anything that I do, right?

And that's fine.

And,

but

I could have just not said anything, right? I could have not told you about my experience here.

Hi, I'm Martine Hackett, host of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a production from Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenix.

This season, we're sharing powerful stories of resilience from people living with MG and CIDP.

Our hope is to inspire, educate, and remind each other that even in the toughest moments, we're not alone. We'll hear from people like Corbin Whittington.

After being diagnosed with both CIDP and dilated cardiomyopathy, he found incredible strength through community.

So when we talk community, we're talking about an entire ecosystem surrounding this condition, including, of course, the patients at the center, that are all trying to live life in the moment, live life for the future, but then also create a new future.

Listen to Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You really want to be better with your finances.

You try to put money away in savings. You look for deals.
You wrote out a budget once a long time ago, yet you still overdraft from time to time and you still have debt.

The truth is, managing money is not easy, but Rocket Money can help. Rocket Money shows you exactly what you're spending every month.

From there, the app helps you make a budget that meets your financial goals. The app even gives you real-time alerts when you're about to go over your budget so you don't spend too much.

With Rocket Money, you can also see all of your subscriptions at a glance and cancel the ones you don't want right from the app.

Rocket Money can even try to get you a refund for some of the money you wasted. Plus, you can use the smart savings feature to start putting more money away.

Rocket Money analyzes your accounts to determine the optimal time to stow away cash without going over your budget. Our members report that the Rocket Money app saved them more than $700 a year.

Getting better with money doesn't have to be a pipe dream. Rocket Money can make it a reality.
Go to rocketmoney.com/slash cancel or download the app from the Apple app or Google Play Stores.

There was a Goodfellows element in the book at points where you feel like, did you ever watch the movie Goodfellows? You did. You're a talent.
Yeah,

I thought you and I referenced it. Oh, no.
No, like, you know, the helicopters are following them, he thinks, and then the helicopter ends up following them.

There's throughout the book, you're like, you think the drones are following you? Was a drone following you? That was another thing that never satisfied me. Hope not.
Hope not. I don't know.

Did you have a Ray Liotta feel to yourself at times? Like, who did you think was manning the drone?

De Niro.

No, I, well, I often feel like Ray Liota in the second half of Goodfellas.

And I do root for bad guys in movies. Okay.
A couple other just silly things that are just, you know, that I can't, I have to get off my chest before I lose you.

Wait, have you ever read the Nick Pelagi book that Goodfellows is based on?

I should. It's really good.
You should read it. I mean, it adheres, the script to Goodfellas adheres so strictly to the book that it's astonishing.
It's called Wise Guys. It's really good.
I should.

I never go backwards, kind of. Like, if I've seen a movie, I don't do the book, which is stupid, but that's just, you know,

I typically don't either.

But I love Nick Peleggy.

Okay.

You said you wrote this walking through the, you know, through the hills there in Malibu on your phone. and i just have to

you're not pulling some of these history you're doing history facts you're doing science facts there's microplastics there's old quotes i write everything on my phone yeah so you're googling it while you're writing like are you doing this from memory how's like how are you handling that well how do i do it i'm trying to think how do i do it um like if you start you start to reference play-doh well depends on

members

if i i don't think i reference play-doh

if i

i've got it right here i'll start i'll start looking for the weirdest reference reference while you message.

No, but I mean, if I, I mean, if I have to come back home and go to a book or go to like my dictionary of etymology or something, that I'm not going to, I'll just TK it, you know, in the moment.

Or, or I just write, a lot of times I write, but Tim, a lot of times I write like half sentences while I'm, you know, in the night or just half form thoughts, and then I go back to it later.

Or I, it's important to me to not let ideas

flutter away. And so that process of pacing and

writing or hiking and writing is very good for that, I find, you know, but I know I go back and I, you know, fact check it or edit it later, but also on a fan. The Dante?

You had Dante and Viridas, obviously the canto is a reference to Dante. What was talk to me about that? Talk to me about Dante.

I just was reading it.

And,

you know, also, I arrived out here and like the,

it's like I go from the fire fire of my own life and then I arrive out here and

the world is literally on fire here. Right.
And

it

was hard not to grow pretty attached

because of that. I mean, I like broken things.
That's no surprise.

And Dante,

as I recall, it's been a minute. I think it was probably 1998.
It made me want to reread it again. But I think that you go down into hell and then there's redemption on the other side.

Do you feel like you, are we paralleling Dante or just inspired by him?

I wasn't trying to,

you know, write structurally in the same way. I just,

I, I couldn't help but, you know,

relate to the story of, you know, walking into hell.

And

there's a very funny illustration in

one of the translations that I have. It's like a chart of hell.
And it's like

there's an arrow by like the gate to hell that there's a vestibule. And it just says like opportunists.

Who do you imagine is in that vestibule?

Everybody that we dealt with over the last 10 years? It's crowded at the gate. Yeah.

The repetition in the book,

are we incanting? Is it incantation, the repetition? Or

is that just your internal monologue?

The etymology of incantation, I don't know, but I'm going to look it up when we finish here, and I can step into the next room.

But no, I mean, canto, it's a division of poetry. And

I,

you know, it's an elliptical structure, the book, right? There are no chapters or no index.

I didn't do acknowledgements because I felt like it would, the kindest thing I could do to anyone who I should thank would be to not

put them in this book by name.

It's not that bad.

People would have appreciated this.

I was sending notes privately. I just, you know, I felt like I didn't need to

contribute to anyone's harassment, you know.

But the elliptical structure, the sort of

the, you know, the idea, this idea that I returned to a few times of the snake eating its tail, right? And this feeling of the last 10 years being circular, right? And

being at the trial with Donald Trump and thinking back to being at the White House or being further uptown at the start of his campaign.

It all felt, I was trying to

render

an experience for the reader that would feel something of what it felt like to live through all that and to watch it.

Which is a disoriented feeling.

We live through that. To that point, I think your best line,

that's rude to say best line. One of my favorites was

when you talk about how Donald Trump fits in Las Vegas and he fits in all these places. But in the Oval Office, when you'd sit with him, the set of the White House seemed in doubt.

And then later you talk about how you interviewed Trump after the Butler assassination and how he said to you it didn't feel at all surreal.

And I don't, speaking for myself, the Butler assassination and you describing him in the Oval Office,

it all makes me feel like we're in a simulation and that this isn't real at all. And I just wonder,

you know, if you have a reflection on that, having been navigating this unreality throughout the book and throughout your last decade.

I think it's obvious I've been doing a good job, right? Navigating it? No. Feels like it's

engulfed you.

But I'm happy to be here. Yeah.

Alive.

It ends with a raven,

the book? It ends with a hawk. Red-tailed hawk.
The hawk? Oh, shit.

That was a total flub on my part. The worst bird for me to pick, for me to get that wrong.
It ends with the hawk. Yeah.

And

you weren't sure if the hawk is cutting through the sky, and you weren't sure if it was a reassurance or a warning. Well, it ends with a drone.

Do you want to

pull it up?

I mean, I read it. I finished it a second time last night at 1 a.m.

You know,

here it is. It's a reminder.
There's a hawk. There's a hawk and a drone.
There's a hawk and a drone. Okay, there's a hawk and a drone.

And the question is whether they're offering you reassurance or whether it's a threat.

And I'm wondering if you feel now, after having finished it and having gone through this rollout, whether you feel like maybe it was a threat. I feel more reassured than ever.
Really? Yeah, I mean,

I'm an optimist, but

I also just, thoughtful people

are quiet.

They're not, you know, I just, I don't, I find it quite easy to not take personally

the

digital stoning

and

and often I find value in it. Sometimes people are very funny or have something useful to say by way of criticism.
But it has still been a shock and disturbing to

see people engage

with this

harassment, right? And

to not call it that,

to not observe it for what it is, just because I am perceived

in

a lot of ways because of that harassment campaign as having this sort of politics that the people who might

support and defend women don't want to defend, right? That's what it feels like. And

I think

it's

a lot of fun.

People that came at you and they're like, though, this was some political thing because of the Biden article.

It's like the Biden article could have been written by anybody with eyes, just not as well, just not as well crafted as you did.

I don't want to steal valor, right? Like Alex Thompson, Annie Lynchy,

the Wall Street Journal, Axios, they did real reporting for which there was nothing but social penalty, right? At a time when it was very difficult.

And those reporters deserve credit for that. What I wrote about President Biden

came

after the first debate, right? Like

there was no great revelation. It was about the fact that there had been this conspiracy of silence.

All right. I want to end with something nice.

I don't know if you'll find it nice. I hope so.
The men that you've been talking about that have been doing the harassment campaign and the

politician, the secretary. Yeah, yeah, we're going to get to it.
It's coming. The politician, the fucking secretary that

I have nothing but contempt for, all these, all of them, everybody in these books pale in these in this book rather pales in comparison to your dad who is in the book and um i just

i wish that he was still here so that i could have met him and talked to him and so you would have had him do this process because i think you do you write about him so beautifully and um

anyway um i know my mother lost her her parents when she was young like you and it was just so tough for her and they were also great and her dad was great and and it was it really kind of i it reminded me of that um how tough that was for her but how how also how she kind of held him with her you know in ways that strengthened her and i hope that you have that thank you no i mean i write in the book that i it was the first time i was happy that he wasn't here with was during all this and it's like well at least at least i don't have to he doesn't have to see this you know um probably wrong though but um but yeah i don't know i'd rather have had him for a short time than someone else for a long time you know all right i appreciate you girl hang in there um if uh tell monica hi for me all right

i'm gonna add to my uh my list of signs that your book rollout has gone awry uh tim miller says i appreciate you girl hang in there

i i

we're just gonna leave it there um that was a podcast um you didn't tell me to fuck off i told you a good podcast would be if you told me to fuck off so i can't say that to you all right every word casts a spell tim

words are powerful That is true.

We'll leave it with that. It's American Kanto.
Go get it. Go get it.
It's American Kanto. Don't listen to the haters.

Everybody else, we'll see you later today with another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. Oh, no, tomorrow.
We'll see you tomorrow. I'm lost.
It's been a week.

We'll see you tomorrow with another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. Peace.

I wanna know

Tell me how it feels

Nostica

Nosta

I

wanna know

you

Tell me how it feels

Dish of pain

Waltzing from the side

can't smoke here,

running of the blue,

I'm feeling well,

spinning of the wheel,

I'm feeling for a pipe to go down.

Love will be

oh,

I wanna know

Tell me how it feels

Someone's here

Someone knows I'm here

Running up the path

Feeling alright

Tell me how it feels

Love will be

The Bullard Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

There are two types of fishing. The kind you do out here and the kind of fishing hackers do online.

They bait their hooks, stealing passwords, spamming emails and fake login screens, hoping to get a bite.

But Cisco Duo delivers end-to-end phishing resistance, all at half the cost of traditional solutions. So when hackers cast their lines, they never get a bite.
Cisco Duo fishing season is over.

Learn more at duo.com.

Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work? If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved so you know what's working and what to fix.

Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash podcast. That's pendo.io/slash podcast.

Get your mother-loving ears on because your big-time radio DJs got news. PayPal lets you choose how you want to pay for all the stuff.

With PayPal, I can pay in store, pay online, or pay overtime. What's that? You want this translated into song? I hope you're sitting down.
You can pay your own way.

You keep those ears on, you hear? Don't just pay, baby. PayPal.
Learn more at paypal.com.