Late-breaking evidence on Erin's gastric bypass claims

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We've heard some enriching evidence presented to court this afternoon.

I'm ABC Investigative Reporter Rachel Brown.

And I'm Stephen Stockwell.

It is Wednesday, the 11th of June, and we've just finished the 29th day of this trial.

Welcome to Mushroom Case Daily.

The small-town mystery that's gripped the nation and made headlines around the world.

On the menu was Beef Wellington, a pastry filled with beef and a pate made of mushrooms.

At the heart of this case will be the jury's interpretation of Erin Patterson's intentions.

Erin Patterson has strongly maintained her innocence.

It's the tragedy what happened.

I love them.

Rach, we are into the seventh week of this trial.

Everyone's starting to get to know each other really well.

And something we've spoken about on the pod before is these moments of legal argument where the jury leaves the room while something is discussed in their absence.

And today, we started to sense an almost telepathic connection in the courtroom.

I think there was a moment where Justice Beale was thinking about whether he should send the jury out.

He looked at them, looked quizzically, didn't say anything.

And one of the jurors just stood up as if to say, it's okay, we know what to do.

We'll show ourselves out.

There was a laugh.

They left the room.

Can you talk us through what else we saw in court today?

Sure.

We started the day with the prosecution alleging that Erin Patterson took the health department on a wild goose chase.

Dr.

Nanette Rogers told the court there was no Asian grocer.

We moved on to the leftovers, why the children ate these leftovers, whether they were leftovers from the lunch.

Then we went back to the cell tower evidence and whether or not Erin Patterson made visits to Loch and Outram where death cat mushrooms were said to be growing.

We've heard about foraging, whether she ever did forage and who she told.

And finally, closing out the day, we've learned more about the Enrich Clinic.

It's the clinic in Melbourne where Erin Patterson says she was booked in for pre-assessment for gastric bypass surgery.

Thank you, Rach.

I want to start kind of where you finished there, the Enrich Clinic, this pre-assessment for gastric bypass surgery that we've heard about over the last week as Erin Patterson has given evidence in her own triple murder trial.

This is relevant because at the lunch, the lunch guest, the surviving lunch guest, Ian Wilkinson, said Erin Patterson brought them there to tell them about a cancer diagnosis.

In Erin Patterson's evidence, she said

she's admitted she didn't have cancer and said that the reason that she had said that was to cover for another medical procedure that she needed, a gastric bypass surgery,

that she was planning to have at some time in the near future.

The first time we had heard about this was in the last week, as Erin Patterson has been giving evidence.

It was a surprise to the prosecution as well when it came up.

Today, they have been going to work, as I like to say.

They have indeed over the weekend.

You and I wondered whether there would be some frantic investigation being done at the Enrich Clinic over the weekend.

They have managed to get a statement from the practice manager dated yesterday, Stocky.

Yeah, so this is very fresh.

You know, we were making an episode yesterday.

This trial was continuing yesterday.

This was underway.

This is happening in the background.

So So they've got this statement that was presented to the court today and it was put to Erin, do you accept that the Enrich Clinic doesn't and has never offered gastric bypass surgery?

And she said she understands that.

You know, does it do pre-assessments regarding gastric bypass surgery?

And she said she understands that it doesn't.

She's reading this practice manager's statement.

This is a statement that Erin Patterson had in the in the witness box today.

That's right.

And the other bit that she was asked to attest to was that this clinic only does procedures regarding skin and appendages.

So it does not do, for the record, gastric bypass surgery.

Now we didn't really hear any more about the clinic, but we did hear that there's been no mention, according to the prosecution, of gastric bypass surgery or inquiries about it in her full medical records that have been studied by Stephen Eppenstall, the informant.

I noticed when Erin Patterson started to be questioned about this, I can't remember if we'd just come back from a break or something at the time,

but Dr.

Nanette Rogers was putting these questions to Aaron Patterson.

And she was asking very direct questions.

You know, she's sort of asking, you know, do you agree that this clinic didn't do X?

And Aaron Patterson sort of said, oh, hang on, well, I'm just confused about this and started to kind of question it.

And then Justice Beale jumped in and said, no, you've been asked this question.

And she sort of, you know, didn't step back.

But yeah, but yeah, have you read the statement, yes or no?

And then she said yes, answered yes, and yeah, kind of like basically was you know much more direct in her answers to Dr.

Rogers after that point.

Yeah, because we didn't hear much more about it, did we, Stocky?

It was just simply, yes, I understand that.

No reason of

why Enrich came up in the first place or anything like that.

There was no further extrapolation on that topic.

Yeah, this was something we spoke about in yesterday's pod.

So if you want to get a bit more detail on where this went yesterday,

only short blocks in both yesterday and today's questioning of Aaron Patterson.

You know what yesterday was like I think five minutes if that at the start of the day.

Dr.

Nanette Rogers kind of asking Aaron Patterson you know does this place do these procedures then following it up today with these questions and again maybe 10 minutes maybe 15.

Yeah and I mean it's the trials evolving as it's happening, which I mean a lot of lawyers, if you're listening, you might pick me up on this, but I haven't seen that that often in the trials that I've covered.

All the work's been done in advance.

Yeah, you're not often seeing a statement that has been collected the day before it's presented in court.

I can't imagine.

The only other thing I should mention on weight loss is that they also looked at her medical records from, I think, December 2013 up until July 2023 to see if there was any mention of weight loss.

And apparently there wasn't, apart from Erin says, her talking to her doctor about being ashamed and embarrassed about her weight.

Yep, yep.

Rach, the start of the day, we were getting into the ingredients and the preparation of beef wellington.

We've discussed on the pot a number of times the way that a beef wellington is usually prepared, the way it's prepared in the recipe book that Erin Patterson says she used is in a large log.

She prepared for the lunch individual Wellingtons.

And today it was put to her by Dr.

Rogers that she could have purchased a full loin if she had wanted to from one of the butchers or another shop in Leangatha.

And Aaron Patterson said, well, I didn't know that.

I didn't do that.

And then was asked about the amount of mushrooms she had purchased generally, because it was something like 1.7 kilos of mushrooms in the week leading up.

And she was asked, what happened to the other kilo of mushrooms that you required outside of the 700 grams in the recipe?

Yeah, because the recipe only dictates that.

And so she was pressed on this missing kilo.

And Erin Patterson said, well, I ate them.

Yep.

And Dr.

Rogers said, what, between the 23rd and 27th of July, so four days.

And Erin Patterson said, correct?

Yep.

Speaking of mushrooms, further questioning around the source of the mushrooms in the meal.

A lot of questions about the Asian grocers.

And this was a different style of questioning from Dr.

Nanette Rogers than we've seen over the last couple of days.

She was kind of going through, like, I think it was half a dozen witnesses, basically, sort of going, you know, asking, you know, do you agree with this statement?

And then kind of presenting, but, you know, you never went to an Asian grocer as this kind of presentation, which is, which is a bit of a change of what we've seen, right?

Yeah, you're right.

I've five I can remember off the top of my head.

There was Simon Patterson's brother, a paramedic, two healthcare workers and a child safety worker.

And she went through what Erin Patterson told these people in regards to the Asian grocer, where she thought it might have been located, what the packaging was like, you know, when she might have gone there.

But Stocky, for each of those people, it ended on the same premise.

Dr.

Rogers said the story about the Asian grocer is a lie.

And Erin Patterson would disagree.

Said, no, it was not.

And then she'd move on.

And again, same thing again and again.

Speaking of Asian grocers,

I have personally tied myself up in knots over Glen Waverly and Mount Waverly as two of the suburbs that Aaron Patterson says she may have bought the mushrooms for an Asian grocery in.

The other ones were Oakley and Clayton, two suburbs that I really nailed down today because we spent a bit of time on it.

But it was, again, interesting in how Dr.

Deanette Rogers questioned her about the location of where she had bought these mushrooms from, kind of

pointing Erin to the fact that she had worked at the Monast City Council, which is the suburb, the kind of council which all these suburbs are in.

And she owned a house in the area as well.

So she owned a house in Mount Waverley.

And remember at the start, Stockie, people were told to look at Asian grocers in Oakley, Clayton.

And here's where it gets tricky.

So Erin Patterson says that she remembers telling people Glen Glen Waverly.

Yep.

But if you ask the Department of Health, Sally Ann Atkinson, she was chasing down Asian grocers in Mount Waverly.

Right.

Mount Waverly is where Erin Patterson's house is or was at the time.

So that's all happening.

They're foraging the suburbs for Asian grocers in these three suburbs.

And then it gets to a couple of days into that search.

And Erin Patterson hears Sally Ann Atkinson from the health department say to her something about Mount Waverly.

And Erin Patterson says, no, Glen Waverly.

I said Glen Waverly.

So the prosecutor, Dr.

Nanette Rogers, is using this to say, you've changed your story.

You know, you've sent people on a wild goose chase and you have changed your story.

And Erin Patterson's reply was, it was a clarification, not an addition,

because she said Mount Waverly and that's wrong.

I've said Glen Waverly from the start.

She was also talking about, Dr.

Nanette Rogers, I should say, was talking about the packaging.

The way that Erin described this was really specific.

It was an unmarked bag, it was a plain label, and really made a point of highlighting that today.

She did.

We heard all about that packaging again.

I imagine mushrooms in a punnet.

This is not the case for these mushrooms.

So they were in what sounds like a sandwich bag or a Ziploc bag, but couldn't be resealed, had a white sticker on it,

not a commercial label, no printing on it, just handwritten what the mushrooms were.

Erin thinks that they were shiitake or puccini.

There was a day, there was a weight listed.

So Nanette Rogers was saying to her, Well,

yep, great.

You remember all that, but why don't you remember the shop?

You know, and why didn't you help people when they were running through a list of names of what the shop might be?

And Erin said she just couldn't remember what shop she bought it from.

She seemed to recall buying it from a shopping strip, not a shopping centre.

So at some stage, she told the health department it perhaps could be Kingsway in Glen Waverley.

But then again, Stocky, some potential confusion there because I think Sally Ann Atkinson remembers Erin mentioning the Glen shopping centre as in an actual physical shopping centre.

And Erin Patterson told the court today, I hate shopping centers.

wouldn't have shopped there.

Yeah.

Continuing the theme of mushrooms, friend of the pod, Dr.

Tom May, Funky Tom.

Funky Tom.

We heard a reference back to some of his evidence today.

This is, God, I feel like I'm going back quite a long way at this point.

This was weeks ago when he was talking through death cat mushrooms, different identifications of them,

and at one point was asked about the smell of death cat mushrooms when they were drying.

And he mentioned they had quite a strong odour, quite an unpleasant odour, I believe.

And Dr.

Nanette Rogers brought Erin Patterson back to that today,

kind of asking her if maybe that was the smell of the strong mushrooms that

she had.

Yeah, Erin says she remembers this evidence from Tom May about death caps smelling unpleasant when they're dried.

She remembers him giving that evidence.

But she disputes the word funny, smelled funny, that Sally Ann Atkinson from the health department says that Erin said about drying mushrooms.

So

Sally Ann Atkinson's evidence was, you know, they smelled funny and Erin was worried that they would overpower the dish that she intended to use them for.

This is the dried mushrooms from the Asian grocer.

And Erin said today, I don't think I said they smelled funny.

It was a strong or a pungent smell.

And she said, no, I wasn't worried about them overpowering the beef Wellington because I actually thought.

they'd be perfect for that dish.

Yeah, and you get questions about, you know, the smell in the container and some things like that as well, I recall.

There's a fair bit going on today, so I couldn't be exact on those details.

But speaking of Dr.

Tom May,

also heard reference to one of his off-siders, Dr.

Camille Truon.

Now, we heard from Dr.

Camille Trouan earlier in this trial, again, not long after we heard from Dr.

Tom May.

Dr.

Truan was the woman who initially investigated the remains of the Beef Wellington for Deathcat Mushroom.

She used a microscope to look for Death Cat Mushroom remains in there, and she couldn't find any.

At At her home, remember, this is what always reminds me about her, that she literally took work home with her.

Like the bag was sent to her and I thought, I know that feeling, you know, work never leaves you, but she was doing microscopic testing of the leftover remains in a bag that was sent to her.

Remember, she gave the court evidence that she couldn't see any evidence of death cat mushrooms through the microscope.

Yeah, yeah.

So we heard more about that today.

The prosecutor, Dr.

Rogers, said, well, I put to you, Ms.

Patterson, that she wouldn't have seen them, would she?

Because you blitzed them into a powder, like we've heard that you've done before with mushrooms to hide them from your daughter when you put them in muffins and whatnot.

And, you know, Erin Patterson denying that she blitzed death cat mushrooms into a powder, but admitting that she had blitzed the mushrooms into a powder that she put in to muffins that she prepared for her daughter.

I was thinking today, as this evidence was presented that we heard yesterday from Dr.

Geros de Moulos who did the analysis of the Wellington remains and found traces of a mannetin.

That was a question that was put to Aaron Patterson yesterday.

It was that Dr.

Geros de Moulos had found

death cat mushrooms in the Wellington and Aaron Patterson actually clarified at that moment and said, oh no, I thought he found a mannetin in them.

And Dr.

Rogers said, oh yes, that's right.

So just something I noticed, kind of moments in the the prosecution's case that are kind of linking up over the course of several days that we're seeing, you know, Dr.

Rogers moving on to different topics at different times.

Yeah, and how important nuance is in this case, too.

Exactly.

Yeah, there's so much detail, very minute detail and so many different moments.

So,

yeah, it was interesting just to kind of see some of that kind of coming back together at this moment.

Speaking of coming back together, we were brought back together with Dr.

Matthew Sorrell,

our phone tower expert.

Not ours.

I shouldn't claim ownership over Dr.

Sorrell.

Australia's.

He's clearly nobody's man.

A station guru.

He is the guy that can kind of, was presenting evidence showing the movements of devices belonging to Aaron Patterson.

So Aaron Patterson's phones pinging off of certain towers.

These were around travels to sort of like locations sort of near-ish to, you know, Lee and Gather and the like, a place called Lock and a place called Outram.

What was put to Aaron Patterson today?

So two days days are really important in this discussion, Stocky, that I want you to remember.

There's a date in April and another in May.

So first we heard about the 28th of April 2023.

Dr.

Sorrell's reading of Erin Patterson's phone suggested that she might have travelled to Locke.

Erin Patterson said, I don't know.

Now, Locke's important because the prosecution is alleging that Erin Patterson travelled to Locke Reserve, where a woman called Christine Mackenzie, who loves her mushrooms, remember?

She thinks they're very beautiful.

she had sighted death cat mushrooms there, took photos of them, posted them to the iNaturalist page.

That post was made on the 18th of April, and it was of death caps under oak trees.

Now,

the prosecution is alleging that 10 days later, on the 28th of April, Erin Patterson drove to Locke and that she remained there for an hour.

So Erin Patterson says, no, I don't know.

I don't.

know if I travelled to Locke.

She disagreed, however, with Dr.

Rogers' main premise was that she travelled there to collect death cat mushrooms.

Right, yep.

But she did agree that later that day she bought a dehydrator.

Okay, yep, yep.

Which we've heard a lot about in this trial.

Yep, we have heard a lot about the dehydrator in this trial.

And the visits to Outram?

So on the 22nd of May, so Dr.

Sorrell says there's another possible visit to Locke.

This is in the morning.

This is like between 9.30 and 10.

Yeah, right.

The prosecutor said, you went to Loch Reserve.

Erin Patterson said she disagreed.

Dr.

Rogers was arguing that Erin thought there might be more death caps growing there.

Okay.

Yep.

And that's why she went back.

Erin disagreed.

She said, you were there for well over an hour.

And here's another

time that Erin Patterson and pretty good memory has picked up the prosecutor

because the time given to her was 34 minutes.

And so Erin Patterson pointed that out.

She said, I thought...

you said it was 34 minutes.

So Dr.

Rogers reframed her question.

And Erin's answer was, you know, it looks like I stayed in an area covered by that antenna, or at least reception of that antenna.

So that's a possible visit to Locke the morning of the 22nd of May.

Now, later that morning, it's alleged that she then had a possible visit to Nielsen Street in Outram.

Okay.

And that's between

11.24 and 11.41.

Erin says no, that she didn't travel to Outram.

And the prosecution put this to her because of another iNaturalist post by Tom May, Dr.

Tom May, Funky Tom, about his sighting

earlier that month of death cat mushrooms in Nielsen Street in Outram.

So Dr.

Rogers is like, that's why you've travelled there.

Erin Patterson said, I disagree.

She said she might have passed through Outram because that's a possibility if you were on your way to Wonthaggi or Phillip Island.

But she said, no, I didn't go there to collect death cat mushrooms.

Thank you, Rach.

For the uninitiated, we're not making fun of Dr.

Tom May when we say funky Tom.

He has a profile on the iNaturalist website, which is the

citizen science website, where people can

tag different flora and fauna.

They can geotag them.

They can sort of say, look, I've seen this mushroom, I've seen this bird, I've seen this tree in this location.

Dr.

Tom May is very active on this website.

He has the username Funky Tom.

As we've discussed in the pod as well, he's also, you know, the term funky actually comes from a key of identifying fungi as well, which is a book, I think, or maybe a program he had developed that one keen-eared Mushroom Case Daily listener alerted us to.

So that's a bit of,

I guess, Tom Made Law, if you will.

Rach, just on

some of the moments today

where Erin Patterson was very keenly listening to the questions being put to her by Dr.

Nanette Rogers, you were talking about the 28th of April 2023.

There was a moment where, I can't remember the day that Dr.

Nanette Rogers said that date was, but Aaron Patterson kind of like, you know, sat there thoughtfully and said, hang on, I think the 28th of April was a Friday.

And my first thought was, how do you know what day of the week a date from two years ago is?

And like a photographic memory, it sounded like of a calendar.

You're right.

It was first put to her, I think that it was a Monday, this first visit to Locke.

And Erin Patterson said, no, it couldn't have been

because my daughter had a ballet concert concert that weekend or something.

It must have been a Friday.

So that was explaining how she knew this date,

the alleged lock visit date, was a Friday.

It was a really interesting, like a puzzling moment.

I was like, wow, what a memory.

But it was, yeah, that was like, I know the ballet, there was a ballet concert, and it was a Saturday and a Sunday, and it was the 29th and the 30th or something like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, it goes back to, we've talked about specifics a lot.

Erin Patterson seems keen to make sure that the prosecutor words things in a particular way, doesn't use double negatives,

doesn't load up sentences with propositions that she hasn't agreed to yet, things like that.

But we did notice, Stocky, that when Dr.

Rogers started talking about the next visit on the 22nd of May, Dr.

Rogers said that was a Monday.

And everyone just kind of went, I think people missed the joke because they weren't expecting Dr.

Rogers to make one at that point.

She did have to highlight, oh, that was a joke.

At which point, again, a very little reaction.

And we all carried on with what we were doing.

Speaking of carrying on with what we're doing, Rach, we have had a huge number of questions sent to the Mushroom Case Daily inbox.

Mushroomcase Daily at abc.net.au is where you can find us.

If you have a question about what is happening in this trial, about some of the evidence, please get in touch.

We love getting your emails.

Some of the things that we haven't thought about, which I really appreciate and really, really enjoy.

And there's things we can kind of help clarify and make sense of in your mind.

It's, you know, it's our pleasure to do that.

That's all we're here for, basically.

Rach, the first question I've got for today is from Wally.

Wally says, love what you're doing.

Thank you, Wally.

We enjoy doing it.

He says, my wife and I have been engrossed in this story since it broke.

Can you please give a date stamp on when Erin first learnt her guests run well following the meal and when she fed the leftovers to her children?

Perfect day for that question, Wally.

We heard a lot about this today, actually, because the leftovers were discussed.

So Erin says that her estranged husband, Simon Patterson, told her on the Sunday, so that's the day after the lunch, that Don and Gail, his parents, were sick.

We've also been reminded of evidence today from Erin's son in his interview with police.

He seemed to recall Erin telling him that his grandparents were sick also on that Sunday.

So

then we go to Sunday night and yes, that is the same night that Erin says that she fed the lunch leftovers to her son and daughter.

Now, with the caveat, she said, I scraped off the mushrooms because they don't like them, they're fussy eaters, and I also scraped off the pastry.

But there was much made today, Stocky, of these leftovers, whether that was a lie, because if they did eat them, the prosecutor was trying to put to Erin, you would have been more worried.

You would have brought them in straight away.

You know, you didn't seem to want to disturb them or pull them out of school.

So, we heard more about that today.

Erin was also asked, why did you and the children eat it if it made you sick?

Because remember, Stocky, that Erin Patterson herself started feeling sick overnight

on that Saturday night, and she was sick into the Sunday, she says.

And so, that was put to her today.

And we have had a lot of questions about that.

So, it was interesting to hear the answer today.

And the jury jury heard that Erin said she thought it was gastro at that point, not food poisoning.

She just said, I thought I had gastro.

So hopefully, Wally, that answers your question.

The prosecutor said, well, you know, that's a lie.

That's a lie you've told to well over a dozen people about feeding leftovers to your children.

You know, and she put to Erin that you've told this lie to give you some distance.

from a deliberate poisoning.

And Erin replied, look, I don't see how it could, but but I disagree.

Yep.

Thank you, Rach.

Thank you, Wally.

Wonderful question.

Another question here from Nikki from Adelaide.

Nikki says, Hi, Rachel and Stocky.

Really enjoying your daily summaries.

I'm hooked.

Oh, thanks, Nikki.

Nikki wonders and suspects lots of others maybe also, how does Erin come across giving her answers to the prosecution's questions?

I know it's subjective, but would love hearing your take.

Is there an emotion or inflection in the way Erin's I disagrees or I can't remembers come across?

Thanks, Nikki.

I have to be a bit careful here here about subjectivity, and I can't impose my thoughts or assumptions onto Erin.

But what we're seeing, I think, is we've talked about specificity before.

She looks quite intently at the prosecutor to make sure she understands the question.

Her voice is quite neutral in her answers, quite measured.

Sometimes I notice a furrowed brow.

And at other times, I've watched her kind of twiddling her glasses between her fingertips.

She's not like getting frustrated or, you know, she's not seeing a rise or a fall in the tone of her voice when she's, you know, she's answering questions from Dr.

Rogers.

It has been pretty constant.

Okay.

Yeah.

Thank you, Rach.

Thank you for the wonderful question.

Nikki, hopefully that's answered it.

We'll keep a keen eye on kind of how everyone is sort of acting and moving in court.

You know, we know we can give you the kind of daily update of what's been discussed, but I think

giving you that insight in you know how dr dynette rogers is questioning and pattern how she's answering is something that we can we can try and help with and and bring to you so if there's questions you've got about that please get in touch mushroomcase daily at abc.net.au and rach our final question for today is from benita um bonita says hello we're out at sea on research vessel tangora continuing our work servicing new zealand tsunami detection network uh they're very keen listeners of Mushroom Case Daily.

The podcast is a daily talking point to be discussed and debriefed over lunch.

They have a question that we're hoping we may be able to answer on the pod.

When it comes to jury deliberations and delivering a verdict, does the decision have to be unanimous in Australia?

Or can it be a majority decision like 11-1 or 10-2?

Fingers crossed for a shout-out and thanks again for making such a gripping and well-produced series.

Thanks, Bernina, and very important work you guys are doing out there too.

My brother's a geomaticist, so I know all about how important this kind of tracking is.

To answer your question, yes, it needs to be unanimous.

And that's either way.

Whether it's guilty to murder or attempted murder in Ian Wilkinson's case, or whether it's not guilty to murder or attempted murder.

It needs to be a unanimous verdict.

Now, interestingly, we heard this at the very start that their reasons don't have to be the same.

So they could have different reasons for landing on the verdict that they do.

You know, they might have got there different ways, but the actual decision needs to be unanimous.

Does that make sense?

It does.

Yeah.

Thank you, Rach.

And thank you, Bernita.

Continue the great work you're doing out there servicing New Zealand Tsunami Detection Network.

Rach, I am almost loath to ask.

What are we getting to tomorrow?

Have a guess.

We are back in the witness box with further cross-examination of Aaron Patterson.

Make sure you grab yourself the ABC listen app.

There will be, I'm sure, still lots to unpack with the evidence of Aaron Patterson.

It's been very interesting over the last couple of days.

You know, it's likely that we will hear more.

Well, it's not likely, we will hear more from Aaron Patterson.

So grab yourself the ABC listen app and you can catch the latest episode of Mushroom Case Daily there when it appears.

If you continue, against my advice, to use a different app, please just leave us a rating and review on that.

I will forgive you in that case.

It does help other people find us and enjoy Mushroom Case Daily in the same way that you are.

Mushroom Case Daily is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News.

It's presented by me, Rachel Brown, and producer Stephen Stockwell.

Our executive producer is Claire Rawlinson, and huge thanks to our true, kind colleagues who continue to help us out.

Our commissioning executive producer Tim Roxborough and supervising producer Yasmin Parry.

This episode was produced on the land of the Gunai-Konai people.

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