Sunday Special: The Books We Read in School

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Hi, everyone.

It's Rachel.

I'm here with just a friendly reminder reminder that today and every Sunday through the end of the year, my colleague Gilbert Cruz is going to be here.

He's talking arts and culture with a rotating cast of critics, editors, reporters, and writers.

This week, with kids back in the classroom, Gilbert and his guests talk classic books, the ones that you may have loved reading in school, or maybe the ones you didn't really love reading in school, but kind of love now.

You'll also hear about books that could help kids fall in love with reading.

Hope you'll take a listen.

Welcome everyone to the Sunday Special.

I'm Gilbert Cruz, the book review editor here at the Times.

All across America, kids are back in school.

Here in New York City, school has just started, but some kids, this is always surprising to me, have been back for weeks.

Regardless of where you're located, children are eventually going to be assigned some books to read, and those kids will look at that list and maybe they'll think,

what the heck are these?

And maybe their parents will look at that list and they will think, what the heck are these?

Are we still reading of mice and men?

And so today we're talking about books, especially the books we read in school and the books we continue to read in school.

Here with me to talk about all this is my colleague from the book review, Sadie Stein.

Whenever I think I am a well-read person, All I have to do is look at Sadie, who sits right next to me in the office.

She's read an astonishing number of books, and I'm immediately put in my place.

Sadie, welcome.

Thank you.

No pressure.

I mean you're going to find a lot of glaring holes I think in my early reading.

Okay.

And joining us from California, this is very exciting.

The author of several beloved books for young people, including the famous Wayside School Books, which I think might capture better than almost any other series, just how weird school can be sometimes.

He's also the author of the classic young adult novel Holes, and he has just released his first book for adults, The Magician of Tiger Castle.

Lewis Sacker, welcome.

Thank you.

It's great to be here.

Given that we are an author and two editors, I think it's fair to say that we're all book lovers now as adults, as grown-ups.

But, you know, Sadie and Lewis, did you always love books from the beginning, from the time that you were a young child?

I read a lot as a child.

You know, the scholastic book fairs would come through and I'd always order two or three books.

I don't know that

I loved reading.

The one book that stands out was actually our teacher read to us out loud when I was in fourth grade, which surprised me.

I didn't know teachers still read books aloud in fourth grade, but she read Charlotte's Webb.

And I just loved it.

You know, the bad part was I cried in class at the end, but it was funny.

It was emotional.

I was completely caught up in the story.

You know, I wanted to find out what happened next.

That's really what I think started my love of reading.

I think it's so important for people to read to kids.

Because, you know, I remember nothing else about fourth grade except our teacher reading that book.

I think the same thing is true of me and fourth grade.

I think I remember a teacher reading maybe Island of the Lost, Island of the Lost.

Blue Dolphins.

Island of the Blue Dolphins or The Secret Garden.

I just remember sitting and having a teacher read to me, which can be like a magical experience when...

your teacher is just holding an entire class wrapped with a story.

Well, it's funny that you both brought up fourth grade because

when I was thinking about this subject, I realized that was the year that was most magical, both reading to myself and having the teacher read.

And my teacher, Mary Neal, was a really gifted reader.

And I remember she read from the mixed-up files of Mrs.

Basile Frankweiler.

And she read aloud to us every day.

And we would knit and do the various handicrafts we did in elementary school.

And it was just incredible.

I should say, I was not an early reader.

And I think what really started me loving it was the first Betsy Tacey book.

Then I was just kind of off to the races.

And I remember kind of the ages of eight to 11 as just incessant, indiscriminate,

immersive reading all the time, constantly.

Sorry, before we go any further, what are the Betsy Tacey books?

The Betsy Tacey books were written by Modhart Lovelace.

I think she wrote them in the 1940s.

She

started by telling her young daughter, Marian Lovelace, about her childhood growing up in Mankato, Minnesota, and turned them into this series of children's books, which start when she's five, her fifth birthday, and end when she is married.

And the level of the writing ages as she ages, and

they're magical.

You see, when I said at the beginning about how well read Sadie Stein is, this is exactly what I was talking about.

Oh, I think you'll find if you bring this up, people who love these books are passionate about them.

Lewis, had you ever heard of these books?

I never have.

The mooch is amazing.

I

became

a sort of an obsessive reader,

I feel like right around 10 or 11.

And it, unfortunately, was because of um movies.

I would watch a movie and then I would want to read the book on which it was based.

And so, Stephen King, who I continued to maintain an obsession with, Tom Plancy, John Grisham, Michael Crichton, Ann Rice, all these people, I would see Jurassic Park or Interview with a Vampire or The Firm,

and I would read the book.

And I became obsessed with these popular fiction authors.

And then that led into just wanting to read all the time.

I always had a book in my hands.

Lewis, I feel like I read somewhere that you didn't become a big reader until high school.

Right.

You know, I was in high school in the

early 1970s.

And, you know, people, when people

talk about those times, they focus on the counterculture and the drugs and the music.

But people forget where some of the leaders of that, or at least among me and my friends, some of the people we most admired were people like Kurt Vonnegut and Ken Kesey and J.D.

Salinger.

And that's when I really started loving books.

I remember a friend of mine and I, I don't remember how we started on this, but we each had a copy of nine stories by J.D.

Salinger.

This wasn't through any class.

We'd each just read a story a night and then talk about it the next day there was so much to try to understand in those stories that just, I mean, like one story ended about with a person having kept a chicken sandwich in his pocket for two weeks or something.

And it's like, what did that have to do with the story?

And, you know, things like that.

And

I just loved it.

I'm curious, Lewis, as someone who.

writes for young people or has written for young people, have you been able to develop over these many decades a theory about

what hooks a kid?

Like what makes a book or a story particularly appealing for a young person?

I think it has to hook me first.

And so I write what I like and I don't talk down to the kids and I respect the reader's intelligence and humanity, even if it's a nine-year-old.

They like the same things I like and

don't feel like they're being preached to.

Yeah, you know, I have a young kid just starting kindergarten this week, in fact.

And so I'm very deep in kids' literature right now.

And

so many of these books just hold up so well.

I mean, you mentioned E.B.

White, which has been a huge hit in our house.

And those weren't books I was that involved with as a kid because I never, I had this idea that I didn't like animal stories.

And I

didn't like horse books.

Like if a kid met a horse, I was, I was out.

But, um,

but reading them now, they, he's a genius.

I mean, those books are great.

And

like, I've been rereading Natalie Babbitt.

Amazing.

I mean, these are

fantastic writers.

I think you have to be so skilled to appeal to children and to treat, give them credit for humor and dignity and deep feelings and a capacity for menace like Rawl Dahl does.

I mean, it is the thing that people tell you maybe before you become a parent when you are perhaps a little bit unclear about how to interact with a child or talk to a child.

It's just like, just talk to them.

They're a person.

Just because they're younger doesn't mean you have to, you know, speak down to them or, you know, use a certain type of language.

It's just like, talk to them and they'll talk back.

And I feel like, Lewis, what you're saying is just, you know, write for them, try to inhabit their perspective, you know, and they will respond to it, which I think they have with your books.

Yeah.

So that's, you know, I think that's us as young readers.

I want to talk a little bit about being, you know, a reader in school, because recently a study came out that, in addition to many other things, compare the books that are taught now in 2025 to middle and high school students with

the books that were taught to middle and high school students in 1989, which was the last time

sort of a study of this type was undertaken.

And six of the ten books were exactly the same.

I'd love to quickly run through that list and get your thoughts on it.

So let me go through all 10 here.

Romeo and Juliet by William Shakespeare.

The Great Gatsby by F.

Scott Fitzgerald.

The Crucible by Arthur Miller.

Macbeth by William Shakespeare.

Sadie's putting up very, she's like, yes, Shakespeare, thumbs up.

Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck, To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee, Night by Ellie Weisel, Hamlet by Shakespeare, Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury, and Frankenstein by Mary Shelley.

So what do we think about these 10 books?

Three of them being Shakespeare plays, being the books that are most commonly taught to middle and high schoolers as like the backbone of an English literature education, are these books that you remember reading?

Some of them in middle and high school?

I

found Shakespeare very difficult to read.

The best way to I found to read Shakespeare was actually, I mean, this was

before computers and everything we've got now.

I had go into the library where you could get records and sit in one of these rooms and play a Shakespeare recording of a play as I read it.

And then it made it made some sense to me, but otherwise I couldn't get through them.

See, I loved the Shakespeare section every year.

And I think it really depends on having a very good teacher.

And I had a couple.

And I remember those, not all of them, but a couple of those experiences, especially Romeo and Juliet, being

a way that, you know, first of all, we acted them out.

People got very into it.

And then at the end of each unit, we would get to watch the movie adaptation, whether that be the Zapharelli or the Roman Polanski Macbeth or.

So they showed you the most inappropriate versions of these stories.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that maybe this is part of why I have such positive memories.

But I got to play like the nurse when we read Romeo and Juliet, got very into it.

I mean, Sadie, I feel like you're saying a version of what Lewis is saying, which is like, you also have to sort of see this performed, whether it's or hear it performed, whether it's listening to a record or seeing Leonardo DiCaprio play Romeo.

Shakespeare is hard, particularly with this heightened language, which is both beautiful and difficult, I feel like, for many kids of all ages.

It is something that is the, in many ways, the backbone of a, you know, Western civilization literature education, and it is also extremely difficult to get into.

So I feel like I fall in between the two of you, which is where

I sort of grew to appreciate it.

But I also,

on first sort of experience, it put me off.

It is hard to get into.

But I can understand why many kids would be like, this is not for me.

Chat GPT, please summarize the plots of Julius Caesar.

I'm curious about some of the other books on this list and whether or not either of you recall reading them in class.

You know, John Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men, for example, you have, I remember reading Grapes of Wrath, but I feel like Of Mice and Men is one that is so commonly read that when you talk about George and Lenny, people get the reference.

I remember reading of Mice and Men, and I liked it.

Steinbeck is still one of my favorite writers.

Grapes of Wrath, East of Eden.

Yeah, I just think one of the things I love about writing, reading as well, I mean, is the connection I feel with the author, that you're getting inside this author's mind,

you're appreciating his wit and his outlook on life.

And I feel that's lost a little bit if you're just focusing on the plot.

And

I think that's what also bothers me about

Shakespeare, for example, is it's so hard to relate to him as a person because the language is so foreign to us that you lose that.

And now it's just about the plot.

Sadie, did you feel that way about some of these books here?

I mean, there is,

you know, we had Cliff's notes then.

We didn't have Wikipedia, right?

But you feel like there was a way to cheat class by saying, oh, I know what that book is about.

But really, your teachers try to get you to engage with the themes and the language.

Of course.

The thing about Cliff's Notes is they,

by today's standards, actually took quite a bit of time and effort.

Like you still had to read the summaries and the,

because I remember I did it once actually in college.

I'm not not proud to say, with

the leather stocking tails, which I just, I just, I don't know, for whatever reason, I didn't want to do it or hadn't made the time.

So I tried to read Eclipse notes, and it really wasn't that much of a time saver, but they made them look so enticingly forbidden with those yellow and black covers.

I guess the teachers could see them.

I do remember reading of Mice and Men, and it made, I found it almost traumatic.

I remember that.

I think we were only freshmen, but I

have not really read Steinbeck since.

We read that and The Pearl, and I found them so incredibly upsetting that I have never read them again.

And I think anytime you feel a strong emotion is not a bad thing.

And that one in particular was easy to read.

I remember it was one of the books that everyone in the class kind of got involved with, which wasn't by any means always the case.

And I'm thinking here of a farewell to arms, which was a particular dud in my freshman English class.

On that note, let's take a quick break.

And when we come back, I want to talk a little bit more specifically about the books we loved and maybe the ones we didn't love so much when we were in school.

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So, Sadie, was there a book that you read in school that you just remember really, really loving?

Oh,

seventh grade, we read Catcher in the Rye, and I absolutely loved it.

I mean, you mentioned nine stories.

We read that later on.

And that was another gut punch, The Laughing Man, in particular.

And I mean, banana fish, as may every single one of those.

Tell me about Catcher in the Rye.

Why?

Because I feel like that is sort of

a prototypical high school text.

I don't know.

I remember reading it when I was in high school, and it was one that resonated.

And then now, if you try to talk about it as an adult, I feel like

there are many people that look down upon it.

But why did it sort of resonate with you at the time?

I think, I think it's, it's, I don't love all of Salinger's work, is the truth, but Catcher and the Rye, I think, really holds up.

And I think it, it does the book a real disservice to

treat it as something kind of immature or jijun because

you know he was an adult man, a war veteran writing this book, and he managed to capture something so real and so essential about being an alienated teenager.

And

when we read it in class, we also did kind of a nifty thing where we were each given maps of New York City and we would trace his path around, which made it really immersive and fun.

Lewis, Lewis, did you read Catcher in the Rye in school?

Again, I don't know that it was assigned in a classroom.

It might have been too controversial, but yeah, it's one of my favorite books.

And that, you know, that along with nine stories and all of Salinger's work, actually, is why I became a writer, him and Kurt Vonnegut.

You know, he, he, he, how unpretentious he was,

and how

when you read J.D.

Salinger, you have a sense of who he is

and the way he sees the world saw the world.

And it was very relatable and funny and poignant.

And that's what I tried to emulate with my books.

Gilbert, what were the books that you loved in high school?

There was a lot that I didn't love, but there was one book in particular that I loved.

It is the most basic book, and I apologize for admitting it.

The book was The Great Gatsby

by Fitzgerald, which I have read possibly more than any other book.

It helps that it's pretty short.

I first read it in high school.

And I remember the edition, the Scribner, you know, sort of trade paperback edition

with those.

The blue and white one?

The blue and white one.

But then it had the eyes on the cover of the original edition.

And I just, I fell in love with it.

I don't, why would you ever be embarrassed about loving the Great Gatsby, which is so good?

If you actually reread it, I would say anyone who is critical of that, have they reread it in the last 10 years?

And the movies don't count because it is unadaptable, in my opinion.

I think it's because the language is too, it's too beautiful.

I don't know, but yeah, that one touched me a lot.

I had read so many books up to that point, but I didn't know that I'd read a book that

was just beautiful.

It was just beautifully written.

I definitely read books with better plots, but the lyricism of Fitzgerald, which some people would say is an over-sentimentality, I would not.

I was just like, oh, this is how you can write as well.

You can write a book that

has memorable characters, a memorable setting, and also has passages that make you swoon as a young person.

That's how I felt about that book.

And I continue to think.

That book holds up.

It's gorgeous.

That's one of the things I think that being forced to, maybe force is not the right word.

That's so negative.

Being made to read books in school can do

sometimes you fall in love with a book even if there are a ton of other things that you that don't resonate with you or that you sort of hold at an arm's distance and i would love to talk about some of those books as well uh lewis is there a book that sticks out in your mind as one that you really struggled with in school

one of the books i remembered not liking was sound the sound and the fury

by william i'm pointing at my screen right now please talk about Faulkner.

So,

you know, now that I'm an adult and well-read, I thought, well, maybe I'll try,

you know, prior to the podcast, I'm going to try to read

the Sound and the Fury again.

And boy, that is very difficult reading.

It's the first like, I don't know, 60 pages are written by someone who

is mentally challenged.

And,

you know, you just have this vague sense of who all the characters are, but you're not sure.

And, you know, and there's like, I think there's two people named Quentin, one of them female, one male.

And the characters named

somewhere in the middle has changed from Maurice to Benjamin.

It's a long, it's a lot to read without knowing what's going on.

So I've just finished that part.

I could never, that's as far as I got, but I can't understand why that would be

if you're trying to get people to turn them on to reading and to authors,

I don't understand why they'd ever assign that book.

Sadie, were you at all into Faulkner in school?

I actually was kind of put off by my high school experiences with Faulkner.

I mean, I persevered in college, and the only way I got through it was by taking college seminars where, you know, it was

really broken down for us and done in very digestible chunks.

I couldn't have done it alone.

I have a similar Faulkner experience.

Being made to read it in a high school English class as I lay dying as well.

And just,

I was like, I have no idea what's happening.

And it's possible that I never want to read this gentleman again.

I was made to read it before I was ready to understand it or to engage with it.

Sort of the opposite of the Great Gatsby.

Like I or others were primed at that age or the catcher in the rye to receive and understand this book.

Faulkner maybe is not the guy for high school.

But there are so many engaging stories and so many,

you know, there's so many authors that I think if it was taught in high school, that students would relate to.

And

like we read The Idiot in High School by Dostoevsky, which is this, you know, difficult Russian literature, but I just remember loving it.

It was engaging and gripping.

And I've, you know, since gone on and read lots of books by Dostoevsky, just like I've read lots of books by Steinbeck after reading probably The Mice and Men or maybe Tortilla Flats.

But like you said, with Faulkner, it just

turned off any interest I had in reading.

Oh, I thought of kind of an opposite situation.

I remember reading,

we read quite a bit of,

it was Beloved that we first read in high school, Toni Morrison.

And that was such a good high school book i think we were juniors and we weren't too young it was it was adult themes but

it was it was electrifying to read but my brother always found it a lot easier to to listen to books than to read them especially long ones and

so we also had um

the audiobook of I think Song of Solomon in his case.

And that was fantastic.

I think one thing I'm coming around to in this conversation is that more audiobooks should be worked into the school curriculum for people who find that easier.

And I think for certain books, it might be the way to go.

I thought about my brother a lot in this context because he wasn't someone who really liked to read.

I only remember him really reading the Muggsy Bogues memoir in the land of giants from his

Charlotte Hornet Sera.

He also liked Matt Christopher baseball books, which I'd read them a lot.

I read those.

Yeah,

I think getting kids who don't think they like to read to read things that are adjacent to their interests,

I think it's great.

I think whatever

shows you that there's additional lore and secret knowledge and a different kind of experience of something you love

is terrific.

But yeah, audiobooks, definitely.

Yeah, I agree.

I mean, to me, whether I listen to it or read it, it's the same, it engages in the same way to me.

Although it's funny because I can never listen to the audio readings of my books because

every sentence is accentuated just a little differently than the way I had in mind when I wrote it.

And so it's constantly...

jarring me when I'm listening to my audio books.

Have you ever gotten through a full audio book of one of your own works?

No.

I've never even got, I mean, there are some that

sorry narrators of old Lewis Sacker books.

And people tell me they love the audio version.

So it's, you know, it's just my own idiosyncrasy.

Brief digression here, just to underscore, Sadie, what you said, which is the importance of audiobooks, which I feel like is

something that for many readers is a big part of their lives and still continues to have a bit of a stigma to it.

You know, if you're listening to a book, you're not really reading it.

I think you agree.

Anything that engages the literary mind, whether you're reading with your eyes or listening with your ears, is valid.

And so

audiobooks are great.

I listen to them all the time.

I do think, to your bigger point, the thing that you're talking about is this push-pull that every lifelong reader experiences, right?

Which is between what they are told to read, what they are made to read, what they are forced to read, whether it's in school or by your parents, and what you actually end up loving and how sometimes those things work together.

And sometimes those two things can be in opposition, right?

The scariest thing is the idea that if you are made to read too many books that you don't like, you will just, it will turn you off from reading altogether.

This is the kind of thing that as a kid, you're never going to feel or believe and you'd hate hearing.

But I'm so glad.

to have, I won't say crossed off my list, to have read certain books in school, been forced to read them,

which I then didn't feel were glaring omissions in my reading list later.

I just wouldn't have had the discipline to take up

Faulkner or Joyce as an adult.

I think there is a lot to be said for being made to do things in school.

Like, I'm not doing math on my own.

I'm glad I was forced to learn it.

Yeah, I think reading has enriched my life tremendously.

And so

I think it's important to try to pass that along.

And that's partly of what I do with my writing is just try to, especially when I write for young people, is to try to turn them on to reading and show them that reading can be fun and engaging and thought-provoking and all that.

You know, you can only do so much, but I think you want to try to reach as many people as you can.

Say, yeah, reading is worth doing.

Lewis, you're just back from a tour for your new book, The Magician of Tiger Castle.

And I have to imagine that you've had a lot of fans, a lot of adult fans, talking to you about reading your books when they were young.

Yeah, I've I've just come back from a book tour with the new book.

And

one of the things that's been really

heartwarming about it was

I've heard from many adults who told me that mine were the books that got them to start reading.

And now they're reading those those same books to their kids or to their students.

And it's been just to hear them talk about what the books meant to them is humbling.

One thing I remember really loving about Wayside in particular was that it was a series.

And I think kids love a series.

And I think it's immersive and propulsive in a way that standalone books aren't always.

I think it creates a sense of community.

I think it creates a sense of anticipation.

Kids who think they don't like to read, I think series are sometimes a good device.

My own little boy happens to be a reader, but

he got really into these books, you know, Dogman.

And I see the same thing as happening.

Every time we're in a bookstore, he's kind of going into a corner and like mainlining as much dogman as he can get in.

And

now they're considered a treat to him.

And so there's something to be said for that, too.

I agree.

I think series books are sort of an entry point, you know, in many ways.

Like it used

my kid never read the Dogman books.

He never read the Diary of a Wimpy Kid books, which are also incredibly popular.

But he

was into the Mysterious Benedict Society books.

He is into the Last Kids on Earth books, which is sort of these sort of post-apocalyptic zombie young reader books that also have images in them, although they're not graphic novels.

Desmond Cole Ghost Patrol is a series that he was also super intrue.

So I think that idea, as you say, Sadie, of anticipation is something that

helps.

Kids, you know, they want something to look forward to.

They want to look forward to the next Marvel movie.

They also want to look forward to the next Percy Jackson book, you know.

I'm very curious before we get into some recommendations not to go super dark, but there was just another report released a few weeks ago that talked about how pleasure reading in America has dropped to

just a frightening low over the past many decades.

So something like only 16% of Americans

now read for pleasure over the course of any given year.

That's a combination of books, magazines, et cetera.

was both surprise and not surprise.

I was both depressed and also I took it as a given that that's maybe where we were in this country at this point.

I wonder if either of you had similar or different reactions.

Yeah, again, that goes to what I've been saying that, you know, in school, you just give them books that they can see the

and it's different for different people,

obviously.

books that you relate to and realize, well, this is really special to connect with this writer and be a part of this world.

I think that's important that we continue to do that.

I do feel like when you find that gateway,

there's sort of no going back.

I think if kids are reading, that's important because it shows them that it's accessible and fun.

I think the kind of addictive laboo boo quality of certain series, which maybe are like weirdly short and seem very commercialized and seem to be kind of cranked cranked out by factories rather than thoughtful writers.

I don't believe in guilty pleasures.

And I think

the more

we can remove certain things that, as you say, have stigmas around them, the better.

I think reading, period, is good.

I know it's not always possible, but I think if they can see you reading physical books, I think

if that is normalized around them, I think that's important.

And also

being read to.

Being read to, I think, is the most important thing.

And, you know,

it's good for parents and caretakers too, quite frankly.

We read aloud every night.

I am reading books about animals for the first time in my life.

It's not what I would choose, but you know what?

I'm learning a lot.

I know so much more about dinosaurs than I ever did.

I've come to finally appreciate Charlotte's Webb, Trumpet of the Swan.

I mean,

so we all can learn from this process.

I love the idea, Sadie, that it's going to be your child that finally gets you into horsebooks.

Don't tempt fate.

Okay, well, let's move away from the dark towards the light.

I'd love to ask each of you for one or two book recommendations.

I'm looking for books that you think would be worth a young reader's time, something that they'd really connect to.

Lewis?

I should preface this by saying

my own daughter is 38.

I used to go to do a lot of school visits as a visiting author, but I haven't done that for like 20 years.

So the authors I know are the ones who wrote between 20 and 30 or 40 years ago.

And the ones I really liked were Lois Lowry, who did the give her,

and Catherine Patterson,

Bridge to Terabithia.

Terabithia.

And also

The Great Gillie Hopkins.

Both those books I found very moving.

Great Gillie Hopkins, I'm so glad you mentioned it.

I feel like it doesn't get mentioned enough, but that is, was a formative book for me, too.

And for those who don't know, it's about a girl who's in the foster care system

and isn't necessarily

an immediately likable heroine,

but it deals with adult themes and themes of alienation and certain social things, which I haven't read it lately, but you can tell me if it's dated.

But

I remember

loving is the wrong word because it was in some ways a hard read, but finding it incredibly impactful at about 10.

Okay, so Sadie, what are your recommendations?

I mean, where to begin?

You've got Where the Red Fern Grows, Red Shaterabithia, Witch of Blackbird Pond, Sounder, Number the Stars, Mix Up Files of Mrs.

Besley, Frank Weiler, Jennifer, Hackney, Macbeth, William, McKinley, and me, Elizabeth.

But if I had to give it to one, it has got to be Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark by Alan Schwartz, which is a book I know Gilbert also enjoyed as a child.

I

think it is

short format.

It's spooky.

It's fun.

If you are drawn at all to the supernatural and we're entering that time of year,

nothing better.

And you will have made In Ghosts a friend for life.

I obviously could not love this recommendation more, Sadie.

This book scared the crap out of me when I was a kid, particularly the illustrations.

I don't even know if they use the illustrations anymore.

That's how scary they were.

I love them.

I want to throw in the mix a book that I read with my son a couple of years ago and which we both loved.

It's another classic.

This is the Phantom Toll Booth by Norton Juster.

And the reason I bring this up is because I had never read it before.

It was not read to me when I was a child, and it was not one that I had read on my own.

And it is so clever.

And the wordplay is incredibly amusing.

The illustrations by Jules Pfeiffer are,

I think, iconic in the right use of that word, not in the way that everyone seems to use it these days, which is incorrectly.

I can't wait to read it again.

And I would actually like to read it my son, who's a little bit older,

again, because it was such a delightful one.

so the phantom toll booth i love the phantom toll booth as well did you read it when you were when i read it in high school

and he has another book that's very fun called just called the dot and the line and it's just this picture book about a

it's about a line being in love with a dot and the dot ends up falling for a squiggle and it's all about you know how

the line can do so much more than a squiggle and it starts doing all these elaborate

geometric shapes where all the squiggle could do is squiggle.

I've never heard of that one, and I'm going to rush home and pick that one up.

Me too.

I would love to mention one more book just to

sort of echo your early recommendations of scary stories to tell in the dark.

This is for kids that are slightly older.

It is a series written by Catherine Arden that begins with a book called Small Spaces.

It stars an 11-year-old girl.

Her name is Ollie.

She develops a group of friends, and they have to deal with creepy stuff over four books, some very creepy stuff.

In the first one, there's a character named the quote smiling man,

which I feel like that's all I have to say.

And you'll know whether or not your child is prepared to read a book like that.

Mine, who is again now 11, read these when he was nine or so, but he really sort of read them several times and they're quite well written.

I mean, I have all this to look forward to.

I was thinking about good back to school books, too, and we're starting kindergarten, so we just read Ramona the pest to him and he loved it.

And that book is so good.

If you haven't read that one specifically in a long time, the way she gets in a small child's head and the

pain Ramona feels at being misunderstood is

is so well done, so sensitively, and it's so incredibly funny.

That's one of the Ramona books by Beverly Cleary.

By Beverly Cleary, yeah.

And

another good back-to-school pick is Miss Nelson is Missing with the iconic James Marshall illustrations.

It's by Harry Allard and just makes school seem kind of fun and mysterious and prone to magical happenings,

even for very young children.

So recommended.

I knew you were going to sneak in one more.

Good one, Sadie.

Okay, let's take another quick break.

And when we get back, we're going to play a little game involving some classic books and some people who really don't like those classic books.

We'll be right back.

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I'm Gilbert Cruz.

This is the Sunday Special, and I'm here with Sadie Stein and author Lewis Sacker.

And we are talking back to school.

We're talking what books we loved in middle school and high school.

And as kids, we had some book recommendations and now we have a game for our guests.

Here in front of me, I've got some reviews that have been submitted by real actual readers on Amazon of some classic books that you may have read in high school.

I'm going to start with Lewis.

What I'm going to do is I'm going to read a review.

You're going to try to guess the book.

And if you get it right, you get a point.

If you get it wrong, I will go to Sadie with another review of that same book and she'll have a chance to guess.

We'll go back and forth like that.

And the most points wins a prize.

These are all books that both of you know.

These are books you most likely read in high school.

All right, let's play.

Lewis, I'm going to start with you.

I'm going to read a review, and then you guess what the book is.

This book has been rated by generations of American high school students as, quote, the great American novel.

I believe this is because the book is mercifully short, lending itself to a quick read with time left over for plenty of football practice.

Lewis, what might this book be?

Of mice and men?

It's not of mice and men.

Sadie, I'm going to read you another review of this same book.

This is a classic about the 20s, and it looks like it was a sad time.

I hadn't thought of it as short, but you mentioned earlier that Great Gatsby is not too long, so I am going to go with that.

It is.

It is.

I mistakenly seated the ground.

I'm sorry, Lewis.

I'm sorry.

Sadie, we're going to go to you for the next book.

This is the review.

The characters were just as lovable and humorous as in the first book, but often it was like they were over-the-top caricatures of themselves.

Okay.

Series.

Classic.

First thought.

First thought, best thought.

Um.

Fine, pass.

We're going to go to Lewis.

It begins as a road trip with two runaways, which quickly devolves to aimless and seemingly endless wandering.

Lewis, what might this book be?

Oh boy, I can tell Sadie knows it.

Um,

Huckleberry Finn?

Huckleberry Finn!

Mark Twain's Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

You're tied at what each.

Lewis,

literally, the last chapter just describes what happened to all the characters, animal house style, and nearly every one of them randomly died.

Wow, what a deeply brilliant ending.

He must have let his dog write the last chapter.

A book where everyone dies at the end.

It's not Hamlet.

It is not Hamlet, although almost everyone dies at the end of Hamlet.

We're going to go to Sadie with another review of the same book.

Postmodern society does not really care about, quote, baby daddies, and the revelation which is made at the end and beginning of this novel is reproduced daily on morning television a la mori.

Which seems like an outdated reference, but what book might that be, Sadie?

Revelation of Paternity and Everyone Dies?

Can I ask, would you have gotten it?

I would not, how's that going to help you?

No, I would not have gotten it.

I'm trying to get in your head.

Let's do

the farewell to arms.

It is not a farewell to arms, Sadie, although that is a book I also had to read in high school.

We're going back to Lewis for the third clue.

It addresses Christian values in early colonial America and promotes the idea that, quote, sins should be judged by society as a whole, which did not engage my attention.

I don't know, the crucible.

Same time period, as far as I can tell, very close.

Neither of you got it.

Scarlet letter.

Scarlet letter.

Scarlet letter.

Sorry,

you missed out, Sadie.

It is the scarlet letter.

So you're still both tied at one.

I'm going to go to the next one.

Sadie.

Okay.

I don't understand why this is classic literature.

It is true to the time period, but pretty depressing to read.

Did not like the ending at all.

Oh, I'm sorry.

This is a hard one, Sadie.

Okay.

What's depressing set in another time?

Honestly, that sounds like everything we had to read in high school.

Yeah, right?

I don't know, maybe of Meissen Men.

Oh my God, you got it.

It's of Meissen Men.

What?

It's because

Lewis had seated it earlier as

a good guess.

All right, Lewis.

The only thing I can say is you watch the boy grow through the book and become a man.

I'm just trying to.

I have no clue.

Let's go over to Sadie.

This story was essentially a Victorian soap opera.

There's all sorts of unknown parents, secret conniving, mysterious benefactors, and worst of all, many unrealistic characters.

David Copperfield?

Oh, oh, oh.

Good guess, good guess, good guess.

I know, I know it.

I know it.

I know it.

No, you have one guess.

Darn it.

You have one guess, Sadie.

Third clue, Lewis.

Who cares about a freak that has a decomposing wedding cake in her house?

Who cares about a maniacal convict who develops an unnaturally strong bond to a young boy with an obnoxious name?

Well, this person looks like...

Great expectations.

Great expectations.

Good job.

Lewis, we're going to come to our final clue here.

All right, Sadie, what book is this a review of?

The character was a mess all around.

He had a very unrealistic outlook on life, and it was depressing.

I kept waiting for something to happen, and it didn't.

I have no idea why serial killers are drawn to this book.

It starts and ends nowhere.

Our favorite book, Catcher in the Rye?

Catcher in the Rye.

Your favorite book, Lewis's favorite book, my favorite book, Catcher in the Rye.

That is a good one to end on, I think.

Sadie,

I'm happy to tell you that you have won this round.

Sadie, you have won something.

You have won something physical.

And listeners to last week's episode know that I'm going to award you something.

It is something that we are going to call the Gilby.

Okay, I.

It is a trophy with my face on it.

I did not design this.

It's slightly embarrassing, but we're running with it.

I'm honored to have received this trophy.

I will treasure it and it will occupy a place of honor on my bookshelf.

Sadie Stein, fellow editor at the New York Times Book Review, thank you for joining.

Thank you for having me.

That game was nightmarish.

Lewis Sacker, beloved author of many children's and young adult books, thank you for joining us here on the Sunday special.

Thanks.

It's been fun.

Before we go, in a couple of weeks, I'll be chatting with some of my colleagues about fashion, about what we choose to wear and why.

And we want to hear from you, our listeners.

Do you have burning questions about personal style?

I do.

For example, is it okay to wear shorts while getting engaged?

I'm going to say no.

The answer is no.

Sorry, Travis Kelsey.

But you might have some other questions like, how baggy is too baggy in a pair of pants?

Or here's an actual question from me, and I think one that many of you share.

How do I not wear the same thing every day?

Maybe you're struggling with, how do I buy clothes on a budget?

You have questions.

Hopefully we have answers.

Email those questions, dilemmas, arguments, debates, etc., to Sundayspecial at nytimes.com along with your name and where you're based.

And our our experts will answer a few of your questions on the show.

This episode was produced by Alex Barron with help from Tina Antellini, Kate Lepresti, and Luke Vanderplug.

We had production assistance from Franny Kartoth and Dahlia Haddad.

It was edited by Wendy Dorr.

The Sunday special is engineered by Sophia Landman.

Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Diane Wang, and Alicia Bae Tu.

Special thanks to Paula Schumann.

Thanks for listening.

See you next week.

And now, a next level moment from AT ⁇ T Business.

Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows, and they need to be there in time for International Sleep Day.

You've got AT ⁇ T 5G, so you're fully confident, but the vendor isn't responding.

And International Sleep Day is tomorrow.

Luckily, ATT 5G lets you deal with any issues with ease, so the pillows will get delivered and everyone can sleep soundly, especially you.

ATT 5G requires a compatible plan and device, coverage not available everywhere.

Learn more at att.com/slash 5G network.