Roger "Unkle Rog" McCall (2 of Spades, New York)

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Our card this week is Roger McCall, the two of spades from New York.

If you lived in the Rochester area back in the you might recognize the smooth voice of Uncle Rodge.

The 90s rock you need, the classic rock you love, 96 told you CMF here at the All-Night Rocket Old Camp.

As a late-night radio host and DJ at WCMF, for almost 30 years, perhaps he kept you company past midnight, maybe helped you stay awake during a third shift.

Also, we heard from Rush told the Wetz Rocket not to be confused with the Todies, who are coming up in just a little bit.

Also, by 52, Roger had already survived a terminal cancer diagnosis, only to to be gunned down on December 12, 2003, in what at first seemed to be a random act of violence.

But a potential witness in the case has raised the possibility that his murder may have been more personal than previously assumed.

I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is the deck.

911 Sona.

Hey, we're at 39 Madison Street off of West Main Street.

I saw him just in shot.

Where?

Right here in front of the house.

Let me get some information from you.

Did you see the shooter?

No.

Is it a male or female that's shot?

What's your name?

Jason.

Are you out there with the victim?

No, I'm not.

I'm upstairs in the apartment.

Okay.

You see him out there?

Is he laying?

He's laying down?

I'm afraid to look out.

He just got shot.

I don't know what's going on out there.

Rochester local Jason McCall phoned 911 from his apartment, where he dropped to the floor after hearing gunshots fired outside.

Parts of this call call have been cut for time.

I think it might be my father.

I think he said Roger, and it sounded like my father.

We need somebody over here immediately.

I think it might be your father.

It sounded like he said Roger.

I'm not completely sure.

My father's name is Roger, and he's one of the owners of the building.

Okay, can you look out the window and look and see if somebody is with him?

If not, if you have a portable phone, I want you to go down there and try to help me out if you can.

I've got a portable phone.

His truck is out there.

I think it is my father's truck.

Okay.

You think your father's been shot?

I think so.

Did you see or hear anybody else running or see what type of truck?

Okay, hold on.

Is there someone on the way yet?

Yes, they are.

The officers are on route, and so is an ambulance and a fire department.

All right.

Any information you could give me about the type of wounds that he has

will greatly help the people that are responding.

I don't want you to put yourself in any danger.

But even if you could see if there's footsteps in the snow going in a certain direction or whatnot.

Okay.

Hold on.

It is my father.

Okay, it is your dad, Luke.

Okay, how old is your father?

Okay, listen.

Where is he shot?

Do not move.

Dad.

Sir, don't move.

Is he?

Dad, don't move.

Sir,

is he breathing?

What?

Is he breathing?

Yes, he is.

Dad, stay with me, Dad.

Stay with me, Dad.

Can you breathe, Dad?

Can you breathe okay?

Yes.

Yes?

Okay.

Here I'm talking.

You can breathe okay.

Let him know that you're on with me, okay?

Okay, well, I'm on the phone with everyone right now.

There are only one room.

Oh, okay.

On the side?

Where are you shot?

He's in the in the in the left side, he thinks.

Okay.

He thinks in the left side.

Okay.

That's a little too much dead.

Okay, look, I can hear that they're there.

Okay.

Can you ask him a question?

What, what, what?

Don't worry about it.

Don't get it.

Don't get up.

Lay down.

Lay down.

Ask your father.

Lay down.

What?

Ask your father if he knows what type of gun it worked or

he shot him.

He has no clue.

Does he know the person that shot him?

Do you know the Dino shot you?

No, you don't know who it was?

Okay.

He doesn't know who it was.

Okay, you're doing a great job helping your dad, sir.

It sounds like the paramedics are there.

It was bitterly cold, below freezing when first responders arrived just before 6 p.m.

to find Roger lying in the driveway, fading in and out of consciousness.

A PlayStation game on the ground nearby led police and Jason to believe that Roger had come by to play video games with his son.

But there was something else next to Roger that you wouldn't normally need for a night of hanging out.

A stainless steel.45 caliber gun.

Investigators quickly determined this wasn't the smoking gun miraculously left behind by the mysterious shooter, but rather Roger's own weapon that he was known to keep on him for protection.

But there was no round in the chamber.

So really, Roger never stood a chance in a surprise attack.

He was actually, at some point during the confrontation, able to draw the weapon.

He got the weapon out, but never got a shot off.

That's retired Rochester police investigator Gary Galetta, who was one of the officers called out to the scene and heard about Roger's account of the attack.

Because even as Roger fought for his life, he was already trying to help solve his own case.

He was able to tell the first couple people there, you know, some tidbits.

He's the one who suggested it was a robbery.

According to a brief secondhand summary from a responding officer, Roger told them that he had been robbed, but the exact quote of what he said or if he was able to tell them what the robber took, if anything, has been lost to time.

But we know that the assailant didn't take Roger's wallet because investigator Goletta told us that was found still on him.

Now, you heard on the 911 call, Roger himself said that the shooter wasn't someone he recognized.

But at some point after the call, he was actually able to give a very vague description to first responders, saying that the shooter was a young black man wearing a dark hoodie.

With Roger alert enough at times to reveal even those fragments of information, I imagine that hopes were high that he would pull through.

I mean, at one point, Roger even told his son that he didn't feel too bad.

But the single gunshot to his torso had done serious damage that doctors weren't able to fix, and he died on the operating table a short while after being taken to the hospital.

That left only the crime scene to tell detectives the story of what happened and who was behind it.

But the circumstances were far from ideal.

In between the time that the incident happened and the time that first responders arrived, we experienced what's known as a burst of lake effect snow, which is common in this area.

And when you get a squall like that, it helps to cover up footprints.

So the guys that found the footprints are trying to do all they can to preserve and to follow them.

So you don't really get to do that up close and personal kind of crime scene search when it's blanketed by snow.

It really hampers things.

While the blanket of snow stopped investigators from being able to successfully collect any impressions of those shoe prints, a canine named Joey was deployed to try and track the scent of the shooter.

Joey picked something up at first, but then lost it just a few minutes later, suggesting that the suspect could have hopped into a getaway car.

They weren't having much luck with physical evidence either.

Though two 9mm casings were found in the street near the driveway entrance, one of them appeared to have been run over by a firetruck before police could get to it, and neither ended up providing anything useful after later ballistics testing.

Now, many of the neighbors that detectives spoke to knew Roger, or at least knew of him.

He not only previously co-owned a few rental properties in the area, but he was also a local radio personality.

He was actually known in some exclusive, if you will, circles because he had an overnight radio show where he highlighted little-known artists, or I guess they refer to them sometimes as garage bands and whatever.

And some of these people got to have their artistry played and highlighted really in the local community.

And he was known for that.

And because of that, you know, he was beloved by local musicians, etc.

So for that reason, you know, he was pretty well known in that realm.

And he had been in the radio radio industry for quite a long time.

The problem was on this snowy night, most people they spoke with in the area claimed to be inside when Roger was shot.

But plenty of people heard the gunfire, including one woman who said that she'd actually spoken to Roger just minutes before the shooting.

And this is a neighbor who police have asked us to call Kate in order to protect her as a witness.

Kate seemed to at least be acquainted with Roger because the house that she lived in for the last year with her husband was one of the ones that Roger used to co-own.

And he would still help out his old business partner every once in a while by collecting rent from tenants on Fridays.

And Kate told police that is exactly why Roger had stopped by her place that night.

Except she didn't have the money to pay him that week.

Here is Goletta reading from the report.

She went on to tell us that the victim collected rent at around the same time every week and felt his routine was well known.

She theorized someone that knew his routine might have attacked the victim.

Her husband, who we're going to call Michael, wasn't there that night to corroborate Kate's account.

But there were other neighbors on the block who agreed that Roger was known to collect rent.

Most of the time, it was in cash, which bolstered Roger's own theory that this could have been a robbery gone bad.

Kate told police that Roger left her house and drove to his son's house right down the road.

She said that she watched him from her window as he got out of his truck and started to walk walk up the driveway.

Here is more from the report.

She said she walked away from the window and within a couple of seconds heard two gunshots.

She grabbed her son and got down on the floor.

She insisted she didn't see anyone out or around the victim as he walked to the driveway.

Records don't explicitly say if Kate called police.

From our review of the 911 calls that night, it sounded like there were at least two women who called in but didn't identify themselves.

So it's difficult to know if they were or weren't Kate.

Her account to police didn't mention it.

Although it did mention another thing of note, that about 10 minutes or so after the shooting, Kate saw something else.

And now that she was aware of what had happened to Roger, she thought that it must be connected.

The twisted tale of Amanda Knox is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus.

In 2007, Amanda Knox was halfway around the world studying abroad in Italy.

She had no idea that her dream would turn into a nightmare.

This limited series is inspired by the actual events of her wrongful conviction and 15-year fight for freedom.

Watch the Hulu original series, The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers.

Terms apply.

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Gate told officers she saw two men leave a nearby house, a known drug spot, right after Roger was shot.

Kate said they were smiling and that she could hear them saying something along the lines of, looks like someone got shot.

The insinuation being that something about the way they said this felt off-putting to her.

Then they got into a white car and they took off before police started their rounds canvassing the neighborhood.

And even better than seeing this, Kate said she recognized these two.

One was a guy who everyone called Ori.

Investigator Goletta couldn't find any record of his real name.

And the other guy, we do know his real name, but we're going to call him Sam because he's never been publicly named in this case.

So Ori and Sam were known for holding people up and robbing them.

And it sounds like this was part of the reason why Kate thought it was possible they may have been responsible for what happened to Roger.

Back when officers had first arrived at the crime scene, they had noted all the license plates on the cars parked nearby, just in case any of them turned out to be significant.

And they soon realized that one of them, a white Kia, had been reported as stolen.

The next day, when detectives were back on Madison Street, they spotted that same car.

This time, it was parked in the driveway of the same house that Kate said Ori and Sam were seen fleeing from in a white car just after Roger was shot.

So there were just too many coincidences.

And most experienced investigators I know don't believe in coincidences.

So this prompted detectives to start undercover surveillance of the house.

Eventually, two men came out, presumably Ori and Sam, but they weren't able to make a definitive ID on either.

One of the men took off in the stolen white Kia, so officers followed closely behind.

And they noted in their report that the driver seemed to be catching on.

So much so, supervisors eventually decided it was safest to call off what was turning into a bit of a chase.

Now that car didn't come back to the house and eventually it was found abandoned.

But besides some weed and a cell phone, there was nothing to help with their homicide investigation inside the car.

Nothing that belonged to Roger, no weapon seemingly connected to his murder.

And although the car was technically stolen, they learned that Ori frequently drove it.

According to a note in the police report, the owner had a history of loaning it out to drug dealers.

So perhaps Ori had borrowed it for too long without checking in or something.

And that maybe prompted the owner to officially report it as stolen.

Since detectives couldn't say with certainty that either Ori or Sam was involved in the car theft, they didn't have enough to make an arrest there.

And they had even less connecting them to Rogers' case.

Just people from the neighborhood saying that those two were probably involved because of their bad reputations and proximity to the crime.

Now, it sounds like they both would have Fit Rogers' extremely loose description of a young black man.

And Kate had also mentioned that Sam was wearing a dark pullover, possibly a hoodie.

And Goletta doesn't think that Roger would have necessarily recognized them.

So some of this stuff is fitting, but Investigator Goletta couldn't remember if detectives were ever able to confront either of them about Roger's murder.

And we couldn't find anything in the case file that we have.

But Goletta said that it's possible they didn't.

The tactic being they wouldn't have wanted to blow their only shot at interrogating them without substantial evidence or facts to hold them to.

So instead of focusing on the who, investigators turned to the why, with robbery still being their strongest theory.

The question now, though, is, is what they were hearing about Roger collecting rent on Fridays true?

Would he have had a lot of cash on him that night?

Well, this is where things get weird.

When detectives spoke to Roger's close friend and business partner, the one that he previously co-owned properties with, this guy told investigators something that left them with far more questions than answers.

You see, several years before he was killed, Roger had been diagnosed with terminal cancer.

Although he'd outlived his initial prognosis and was in remission, His buddy told police that he still chose to slow down a bit when it came to work.

The partner kind of gave us this indication that Roger stepped back from collecting the rent as of recent.

So it really clouded the purpose of him being there.

Why had Kate told police that Roger was in the neighborhood collecting rent if supposedly he'd stopped doing that?

And to further that, from what detectives could tell outside of Kate, Roger hadn't made any other stops to collect rent that day.

And we know Kate herself had even said she hadn't been able to pay up that evening.

So it doesn't seem like Roger actually would have had any major cash on him.

Though the shooter wouldn't have necessarily known that, I guess.

It sounds like detectives didn't doubt Kate's account, but rather maybe just chalked the whole thing up to some kind of misunderstanding.

After all, according to the business partner, halting the rent collection had only been a recent thing.

Perhaps Roger had just stopped by Kate's to try and collect a final late payment.

But they still had some follow-up questions for her husband, Michael, who remember hadn't been home during their initial canvas.

When they were able to speak with him, Michael said that he hadn't been there when Roger came by or when investigators were first canvassing because he'd been out paying a utility bill at night in bad weather after business hours.

I don't know if it was just this detail alone or Michael's overall energy while they were speaking with him, but to investigator Goletta, the whole thing just felt strange.

Sort of like he was trying to create an alibi for himself.

Investigator Goletta said that years ago, he tried to verify whether or not Michael had actually paid this bill.

But today, he doesn't remember how that panned out, and he couldn't find any record of what it was he found back then.

But it wasn't just Michael's story that had detectives raising their eyebrows.

He was still on our radar just because of his criminal background.

A pretty serious one at that.

Detectives noted that Michael was a registered sex offender who had been convicted of an assault that involved cutting someone's throat and grand larceny.

He had been released from parole about two months prior to Roger's homicide, and he also fit Roger's own loose description of his shooter.

But, and I again cannot stress this enough, so did many people in the neighborhood.

Now, Roger maybe would have recognized Michael if he had gotten a good look at him.

But other than stopping by to collect his rent in the past, which we know was at least sometimes paid by Kate, it doesn't seem like the men had any other connection, which didn't give much motive for Michael to want to kill Roger, but they still kept him on their short lists of persons of interest, which as of that moment was just Michael, Ori, and Sam.

But anyway they cut it, they were still missing a piece of the puzzle.

For Ori and Sam, the motive was there, but the M.O.

wasn't.

They were known for sticking people up and stealing.

but not killing them in the process.

And for Michael, the violent criminal record was there, but not the motive.

So that's the point where the investigation hit a brick wall.

And it would take five years before the right person would come forward with more information, revealing never-before-heard allegations surrounding Michael and that fateful day.

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It's interesting how in a case, the passage of time is the worst thing until it's the best thing.

You see, this informant that came forward was someone that police had actually already spoken to back in 2003 when the shooting occurred.

The guy lived nearby within view of the scene, so he was part of the original canvas.

But back then, he had nothing to say.

Five years later, though, in 2008, that man, who we've been asked to call Dan, was changing his tune.

I realize I should have come forward a long time ago, but I was scared.

I had testified in the past on a case and some promises were made to me that were not fulfilled.

I fear for my safety and that of my families.

That's a voice actor reading from Dan's statement.

We've edited it only for time, clarity, and to avoid revealing any identifying information, as advised by investigator Goletta.

Dan said that he happened to be looking out his window the evening of December 12th, 2003, when he saw Roger leave Kate's house.

He noted Roger had been there for about 10 minutes or so and that he had stopped there as well as other places in the neighborhood to collect rent.

He watched as Roger got to his pickup truck and pulled away.

And that's when he claimed he noticed Kate's husband, Michael, walk to the corner by Roger's son's place, stop, and pull up his hoodie.

Dan watched as Roger made his way up his son's driveway.

And then he said he saw Michael lift his hand and fire a gun several times down the driveway.

I was shocked and couldn't believe what I was seeing.

The guy ran northbound on Madison Street, then westbound along a house towards an alley in the back.

I started to go out the back of my house to see where he went, but I thought better of it.

I stayed inside my house and the police came almost immediately.

When they arrived, I went outside and found out that someone had been shot.

There were several people outside standing near me, including the lady whose house Uncle Rog had been at earlier.

She was very upset and crying hysterically.

I thought perhaps she may have had had feelings for Roger.

A few minutes later, I saw the guy, the one who shot and the one who lives in the house with the woman, come from around the corner.

His girlfriend ran over to him, yelling that Uncle Rog had been shot.

I noticed that he had on the same exact clothing he was wearing, the dark pants and dark jacket, but he got rid of the hoodie he had pulled up over his head.

I saw him shrug his shoulders when she told him, as if he didn't care.

Though he doesn't refer to them by name for some reason in that section, Investigator Goletta assured us that Dan was talking about Michael and Kate.

Dan was even able to identify Michael in a photo lineup.

Investigator Goletta told us that in that past case where Dan had testified, the one where he felt like promises were made to him and not fulfilled, Dan had some credibility issues.

But despite those, Goletta felt like there were parts of his story, this story, that felt believable.

I mean, for one, Dan described what we know were Roger's final movements that night.

Kate's house to collect rent, then over to his son's place.

Additionally, he specifically brought up that the shooter was wearing a hoodie, information that doesn't seem to have been in any public reporting from before that we could find.

Plus, and I think this might be the most damning thing, Dan's description of the path he says Michael took when he fled that night matched up with the shoe prints officers found when they arrived on the scene, the path they believe the gunman took to get out of Dodge.

As you heard, Dan described Kate as as appearing very upset, crying hysterically when she found out Roger had been shot, and that he thought perhaps she may have had feelings for Roger.

So, albeit tremendously speculative, Dan raised the idea to police that it was possible Michael may have had some anger or jealousy toward Roger.

And that is something they didn't have until now.

Or, as investigator Goletta put it,

the possibility of a personal relationship gone bad.

Police haven't been able to corroborate Dan's story.

And due to his track record, if they were ever able to take this case further, Goleta said it's just not the type of thing that would hold up in court.

Now that it was years after Roger's murder, investigators didn't have any luck verifying this with Kate.

It sounds like she wouldn't talk with them at this point.

And ever since their initial chat with Michael early on, it seems like he refused to engage with them too.

Here's the thing.

When you're dealing with a hardcore criminal, somebody who has experience in the system, you got to be ready to charge somebody before you take a run at them in an interview.

You got to have things that you can confront him on, that you can prove and that he can't explain.

So to do really a cold interview where, you know, there's not a lot that you can really confront him on, he knows you, A, got nothing, and B, he's not going to willfully talk to you.

If you don't have that level of proof to go through with the prosecution, it makes it almost impossible to try and do any type of a controlled interview with a guy.

It's the same thing with Ori and Sam.

Police don't have proof to connect any of these guys to Roger's murder, and they can't make them talk.

And sadly, the silence from people who potentially know more means there is nothing substantial to report back to Roger's loved ones.

Our reporter Nina connected with Roger's wife, Denise McCall, by phone.

And ultimately, she and her son Jason opted not to participate in this episode.

It was just too hard to dredge it all back up again.

Investigator Goletta said it's their pain that drives police to keep pushing for answers in Roger's death.

You walk that walk with them of grief while trying to do your best to try and bring the case a closure.

And, you know, not every case gets solved, so it's a lot of responsibility and it's tough when you can't give them that closure that they so desperately need and deserve.

It's not just Roger's immediate family that has felt his loss so profoundly.

He used his radio platform to give other people a voice.

Investigator Goletta told us how Roger supported lesser-known local artists when they were first starting out by listening to their tapes, inviting them on his talk show and airing their music for the first time ever, often when no one else would take a chance on them.

In a 2003 article in the Democrat and Chronicle, Denise described Roger as, quote, the kindest, sweetest, most generous, loving man I have ever known.

End quote.

The piece mentioned that Roger would rent houses and donate clothing and other necessities to to his tenants in need.

Whether it was for those less fortunate or in the artists, for so long, Roger was a resounding voice in Rochester.

Always says please and thank you.

That's very nice.

Here on 96WCMF, what a nice man.

Here on 96WCMF at the All Net Rock at World Cafe.

With a 90s rock you need and the classic rock you love.

Now, Roger can no longer speak for himself.

It is up to you to speak up.

It goes back to what you believe in your faith.

Either you cleanse your soul and you answer for it now or you answer for it later.

You can help bring some sort of closure or relief to a grieving family.

You can help answer questions that need to be answered and advance justice.

Whether it was a robbery or something more personal than that, If you can provide any insight as to why someone shot and killed Roger McCall on December 12, 2003, detectives want to hear from you.

Although we were asked to use pseudonyms for persons of interest in this episode, if any of the details or storylines sound familiar to you, or if you can corroborate Dan's statement about what he said he saw that night, please reach out.

You can remain anonymous by contacting Rochester Crime Stoppers at 585-423-9300 or by visiting them online.

We're going to have all the ways that you can contact Crime Stoppers and law enforcement directly in the show notes and the blog post for this episode.

The Deck is an audio chuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis.

To learn more about the deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com.

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