Buddhist Teacher: No One Is Talking About This Hidden Epidemic! The Western Lie Behind Depression and Anxiety

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We're all at the mercy of our own minds.

But the problem is, is that in modern life, we're constantly made to feel we're not good enough.

Something's always missing, and I will be happy or unhappy if this or that happens to me.

So we become prisoners of life.

And you learn this the hard way.

Yes, when I was in a long retreat, cut off from the world for four years.

And memories were coming up from the past that would build into horrific amounts of depression, anxiety, pain.

And I jumped over the wall and tried to escape because of what happened to me when I was 14.

Are you comfortable talking about this?

Yer Long Tupton is a Buddhist monk who spent over 30 years helping Hollywood stars, CEOs, and corporations stay in control within a world overloaded with stress, addiction, anxiety, and burnout.

Here we go.

I became controlled by distraction, controlled by negative thinking.

What is life going to do to me next?

How will I handle it?

And things only changed when I hit rock bottom.

I had spent so much effort trying to push that suffering away because it's so disgusting and so shameful, but it was just making it worse.

So many of us run away from pain, though.

But the reality is, you can run to the end of the earth, and that thing that has been tormenting you will always trip you up.

And so, I went back into that retreat knowing the methods are there, I just need to know how to use them, and I could learn to conquer this.

And that's where meditation comes in.

Do you think you can teach me?

Because I very much feel like I'm on the receiving end of life.

First of all, chuck all those things away.

There's a lot of spiritual tat, isn't there?

I mean, you just said it.

I actually hated meditation when I first did it because there's a lot of misconceptions.

And actually, all you're doing is these three things.

To be less controlled by negative thinking.

And the beauty of this is that they can show in brain scans.

There'll be visible changes in your brain.

So let's try this.

Quick one before we get back to this episode.

Just give me 30 seconds of your time.

Two things I wanted to say.

The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.

It means the world to all of us.

And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.

But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.

And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app.

Here's a promise I'm going to make to you: I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future.

We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.

Thank you, thank you so much.

Back to the episode.

Galong Tupton.

Why is your work more important now than ever before?

Why is your message more important now than ever before?

I think

because we're now living in times where we need meditation more than ever because of the speeding up of life, obviously with technology and the way we live.

And also, I think because meditation has become more widespread, there are loads of misconceptions about it.

So I do try to put some effort into kind of clarifying some of those misconceptions.

When you look out into the world

and you perform your sort of own analysis on what the world, the Western world, is getting right and getting wrong, what are some of your sort of big picture feelings, thoughts and concerns?

Well the way we are all buried in our phones is quite something isn't it?

And the way we interact with information has changed so much.

So we are

kind of bombarded or invaded by constant flow of information which has a lot of persuasive undercurrents to it, and this is affecting our stress levels and also affecting our confidence levels.

We're constantly made to feel something's missing, something's always missing, we're not good enough.

If you get this, you'll be okay.

If, if, and when this happens to you, then and only then can you be happy.

So, we've kind of lost our power.

We talked a little bit about the word purpose as well.

What is your perspective on the state of human purposefulness?

So, I think

this issue around purpose, I think it is connected to

the breakdown of religion

in that I would say, well, I think we'd all say that religion used to be very much the centre of the table, and it sort of gave everybody a sense of their place in the universe.

And the question of purpose was never such an issue because

everything was

in context according to one's religious belief.

And of course, now we're in a post-religious culture, and it's much more about the individual.

And there are good things about that, of course.

But what happens then is we become very obsessed with our purpose.

And the word purpose itself suggests, I want something.

I want something.

What do I want?

And in Buddhism, we look at that wanting mind and see how insatiable it is, and how the more you want, the more you're going to want.

And so, from a Buddhist perspective, we're all looking for purpose, but maybe

externally, because we get what we want and then want something else.

And maybe

what we're actually looking for is something deeper within, but we don't know how to access it.

So is it wrong then to be in search of purpose?

Is it a misguided pursuit?

No, I wouldn't say that, but I would say what's misguided for us is that we are obsessed with the idea that happiness

comes from the outside.

And on the other side of the coin, suffering too.

So I will be happy if I get this or get that or this situation or that situation.

And I will be unhappy if this or that happens to me.

So we become at the sort of receiving end of life.

What life is going to do to me next?

How will I handle it?

So

there's not much strength there.

And

I think the message of meditation is that you become your own purpose and you become the generator of your own experiences because you learn how to take hold of your own mind.

In this conversation, do you think you can teach me how to do that?

Because I very much feel like in my life I'm on the receiving end of life.

Well, I'd love to show you how, maybe help you to see that meditation is easier than you thought

or more applicable to daily situations than you thought.

When we think about the state of well-being in the Western world, everybody knows these stats around suicidality.

If we look at the US, for example, they've slipped further in the unhappiness rankings than ever before.

The US fell to 24th place in 2025 in global happiness rankings.

In 2011, the US had been 11th place, and now they're 24th.

And the UK followed the same pattern.

The UK dropped to 23rd in global happiness rankings, which is its lowest position in a long time.

But then more sort of horrifically, the suicide numbers in the UK, the US are tremendously alarming.

In the UK, suicide has reached its highest level in many, many decades.

Something is going on here.

Absolutely.

So we have developed the most

materially comfortable culture.

in history.

We are materially more comfortable than ever and yet emotionally more uncomfortable.

So something hasn't added up.

You know, we've created a comfortable, to a certain extent,

outer world for ourselves, and we can achieve high levels of material comfort.

And somehow, the more of that we have, the more emotionally uncomfortable.

And I think this is all to do with the mechanisms of desire.

So when we are in a culture that is constantly promising us the next piece of enjoyment, the next hit, the next buzz, the next thing,

we're caught in a sort of cycle of wanting more.

I always describe the search for happiness, that the problem in that is the search itself.

Because searching is a habit that will lead to more searching.

So we're always looking for the next thing.

So we get what we want, not always, but sometimes, and then very soon we want something else.

So the more we're wanting, the more we're feeling we don't have.

So we end up possibly with a lot, but feeling quite empty inside.

And then we're back to this question, what is my purpose?

What's it all for?

I've reached the goal I wanted to reach, but I still feel empty.

I still feel something is missing.

We're told something is missing all the time.

Because to keep a consumer message going, you have to tell people they're lacking in something.

And the insistency with which that message is fed to us, through our phones, basically, and through the media that we consume, is going to affect us.

I think 90% of people listening right now would say that their meaning in life comes comes from the pursuit of something,

the journey towards something.

It might not come from the attainment of it, being successful, being on the podium, but they would say that the meaning they experience, the joy, the thing that gets them out of bed is in the pursuit of something, whether it's building a business or, I don't know, becoming an athlete or building a charity.

Are they misguided in that thought?

No, it's just that we could look deeper into our own internal psychology and see how, well, the word pursuit is everything.

So we're always in pursuit of something.

And

the chemistry of our body in the state of pursuit is that chemical dopamine.

The interesting thing about dopamine is it falls away just before you get what you want.

So the chase is much more exciting than the having or the getting.

And so we're locked into this constant chase.

And what is the next thing?

When will I get the next thing?

And I think the reason why we feel so sort of empty or disappointed is because what we get is never enough.

And meditation comes into this conversation to show us that actually what we were looking for was already there inside.

That's the key point.

What were we looking for?

We were looking for freedom.

If you think about how it feels

when you get what you want,

you know, there's the chasing, the the wanting, and then there's the getting.

There's a kind of relief, isn't there?

It's a feeling of, oh, the wanting's gone away.

It's like hunger.

You feel hungry, you eat a sandwich, the hunger's gone away.

I mean, that's a metaphor for everything, and that when you get what you want, there's this relief,

the wanting,

the needy feeling, the, oh, when will I get it has gone, and there's a relief.

So, actually, what we're looking for,

momentarily, and then it kicks in again.

We're looking for the next thing, but what we're looking for is the absence of wanting.

That's the happiness we achieve when we get what we want is a kind of freedom from wanting.

So the problem is, is that we're caught in a cycle where we then just want something else.

So I'm not suggesting let's all go and sit on a mountaintop and meditate and not have lives and not have careers.

Not at all.

I'm simply suggesting that we've put our focus very strongly on material things.

And I think there needs to be also a focus on the mind.

And I think that's how we can learn to free ourselves.

You learned this the hard way, through your own experiences.

Can you talk to me about how you learned these lessons?

Well,

I definitely became a monk through extreme suffering.

I wouldn't describe myself as having been a kind of, you know, a spiritual seeker.

And I went to a monastery with a kind of...

open glowing heart wanting to find the answers.

I went to a monastery in a completely broken state because I had been living

in this kind of ambition cycle, wanting, wanting, wanting, and

really not looking after myself.

I had a very self-loathing and unhappy mind, a lot of depression, a lot of anxiety, and

I went to that monastery feeling completely at rock bottom.

And I didn't go to a monastery to live there forever.

I just kind of dipped my toe in, but, you know, I stayed.

If I was a fly on the wall in your life on that day when you showed up at that monastery, what would I have seen?

So I was very ill.

And I arrived at the monastery

really needing help.

So I was living in London and New York.

I was trying to become an actor.

My mother's an actor, so I sort of wanted to follow in her footsteps.

And I got into a really kind of dangerous, kind of party lifestyle, really wild and burning the candle at both ends.

I basically made myself ill.

I had a very, very dramatic burnout living in Brooklyn and waking up one morning in my apartment thinking I was having a heart attack.

I went to, I didn't have medical insurance, but I managed to find some kind of like cheap ECG place.

And they checked my heart out and they said, you have a heart condition.

What have you been doing?

And, you know, I really

had to stop in my tracks.

And I was very, very ill after that for a few months.

What age was this?

21.

Wow.

And during that time of being horrendously ill, I had to question everything I was doing with my life.

But that illness is a symptom.

It's a symptom of

unhealthy living, but also an unhealthy relationship with my own mind.

And where did that unhealthy relationship with your own mind stem from?

So I think things that

happened in my early life,

traumatic things, difficult things, and then me not knowing how to deal with those and just bottling them up and pushing through, pushing forward and not looking at myself.

I had this very sort of escapist way about myself.

I think that's what all the partying was about, to kind of get out of my head.

And so

when I had that burnout, I think it was a combination of physical stress and mental stress that just exploded very, very suddenly, literally overnight.

Did you have an abusive childhood?

Because I was reading some of the things that you had said and it suggested to me that there was things that happened when you were young that left

imprints on you that you had to work through.

Yeah,

I would say things happened in my teens that were troubling.

You know,

when I was quite like 13, 14, I started to run with a much older crowd.

So I had a kind of double life.

I was at school and very studious and very quiet.

And then outside school, I was in a rock band with much older people.

When I was 14, I started to actually work as a jazz pianist in wine bars across London, pretending I was 21.

And the people I was running with at that time were much, much older than me.

And

yeah,

there were some situations where the relationships turned, I would say, abusive.

And I would say I was a victim of, at the time, maybe I thought I knew what I was doing, but looking back, definitely not and I think that left imprints and I think it made me frightened of myself and frightened of other people

are you comfortable talking about this yeah was this sexual abuse

yeah from from from one of the people I was in a band with yeah

and when you think when you sort of trace the steps of the behavior that you then saw in your early 20s the sort of escapist behavior the sort of self-medicating behaviour yeah is is that the content Is that where that originated from?

The sort of processing of that and the dealing with this?

It's really hard to make a very specific direct connection, isn't it?

And that's what we always want to do.

We want to say this happened because of this.

And there's this, you know, this happened, and therefore, I went off the rails.

In a way, that's too easy, because I think there's a mixture of many, many elements that can send one off the rails.

You know, my parents are incredibly loving people.

I mean, they really loved me and brought me up very well, but they split up very, very suddenly when I was 17.

My my dad literally ran off with one of my mum's friends and it was a very huge explosion in the family and we were all very broken by it.

And so there are many many things, many factors that came together in my teenage years that I think sent me off the rails.

I got into Oxford University and that was a big prestigious thing but I fell apart in Oxford.

I started to get horrendously depressed and I actually got expelled.

It's actually quite hard to get expelled from Oxford.

I didn't, I've never met anyone that got expelled from Oxford.

Exactly.

My mother was delighted.

She said, oh, that's like Lord Byron, Shelley.

Those are, you know, very hard to get thrown out of Oxford.

You have to, you know, do something pretty horrendous.

But I think in my case, they

threw me out because I was just not functional.

And that then just

led to my demise.

And then on the one hand, I was started acting and being in plays and having this kind of

almost like sort of glamorous persona.

And on the other hand, crumbling inside, I had this incredibly persistent monologue of self-disgust.

You know, like a voice in the head that says, you are disgusting.

You are no good.

You are a failure.

I used to call it my devil voice, but it's obviously part of me.

And that's something that later on, when I started to do retreats, became incredibly loud.

in my head and I had to work hard on meditation to help not to get rid of that but to integrate it and learn to be at peace with it.

It's definitely, you know, it's gone away now.

Where does that voice originate from?

You're not the first person that I've sat with here who's talked to me about a similar voice in their mind.

And I'm wondering,

is that something from we inherit from our environment, something that happens, a culmination of things that happen?

Is it genetic or is it all of the above?

It's many things.

Because that's very specific.

It's many things.

And it's, I think, in my case, it was

because I became very good at suppressing my suffering,

because I became very proficient at pushing things down and just going to as many parties as possible and trying not to suffer.

I think when you push something down, the kind of volcano effect happens, and then this sort of angry voice comes up.

This pressure leads to a kind of backlash inside yourself.

And it's an internalized anger that also is fed to us from our environment absolutely

so you arrive at the monastery yeah who told you to go to a monastery so my oldest childhood friend Tara we grew up together and

when I was completely falling apart with this heart condition at 21 she basically scooped me up and took me to the monastery she's the one who told me She said, oh, there's a monastery in Scotland, which it's called Samueling.

It's a Tibetan Buddhist monastery.

And for the first time ever, they've opened their doors to people who wanting to be monks for a year,

one year.

And so she said, let's go and do it.

She wanted to do it too, but she said, this could really help you.

So she basically pretty much carried me there.

What were you saying to her?

When she asked you how you were doing or what your symptoms were?

I was lying in bed with horrendous heart palpitations and any move I made, my body would be bathed in sweat.

I mean on we we were in California because I got sick in New York.

I managed to get to California where my mother was living and Tara was there and they looked after me and then literally flying back to the UK I had to lie down on the plane.

She was almost carrying me.

It was really, really heavy.

But

she said, look, this place could help you.

It's just a year.

It's just a year out of your life.

I thought, okay, I'm going to do that and then I'll go back to New York.

I almost sublet my apartment in New York, but I didn't in the end.

But there definitely was a feeling in me of, okay, I'm going to go to this Buddhist retreat, get myself straightened out, and then go back to what I was doing before.

So it didn't feel too outrageous because it was only a year.

Of course, it wasn't a year.

This is 30 years later.

I'm still there.

Wow.

And to give people like me who don't understand what happens in a monastery a picture into the what I would describe as incredible dedication and sacrifice that you've gone through over those 30 years.

Can you share some of the practical things that you've done in those 30 years that most people would think of as being just outrageous?

But do you know what?

You say sacrifice, but to me it didn't feel like a sacrifice.

It felt like immediate relief because I, yes, when you become a monk, you take vows to give up things, certain things.

But the things I was giving up were the things that made me ill.

So you're giving up intoxicants and you become celibate.

And you, I mean, there are also kind of moral vows, such as you give up telling lies and stealing and harming others.

These are all, you know, good principles to follow.

But I suppose the two major things are no intoxicants and celibacy.

And to me, that was such a relief to just kind of give all of that up and be in almost like a kind of like a rehab situation.

And

but I have to emphasize, it didn't feel too heavy because I thought it was only going to be for a year.

So celibacy is sex.

Yes, yeah.

And

what I found is that you actually develop stronger relationships.

So people often think monks must be very lonely, but what I found was that then you were in a community of people where

the sexual

chemistry is off the agenda.

So you start having friendships that really are so heart-based and you meet lots of people who are on the same path as you.

So I didn't feel lonely at all.

What is it about sex that is

maybe a distraction?

What is it that puts it on the list?

It's not to say that sex is wrong or evil or bad.

It's not a sort of weird, sort of moralistic, anti-sex thing at all.

It's simply about where you're putting your focus.

So

when you're a monk, you're giving up family life, you're giving up sexual relationships, you're giving up romance, you're giving up all of that so that you can focus very intent.

intensely on meditation practice with the purpose that you can eventually help others.

It's not a selfish thing, as you're doing this so that you can be of more benefit to others, but you want no distractions.

And also,

at a deeper level, you want to start to experiment with what happens

when you don't immediately run after a desire.

You start to experiment with

trying to

not suppress your desire, because that's incredibly unhealthy, but watch your desire and observe it and find out that you are more than your desire.

And so celibacy is an amazing environment to start doing that work.

And that also means no masturbation and those kinds of things.

Yeah, I mean, it's really about working with desire rather than just, when I say working with, I mean

observing it and learning ways to transform it rather than just giving into it or suppressing it.

And

I wouldn't say celibacy is for everybody, but it suits a certain type of person.

And, you know, in Buddhism in general,

in the UK or America, there's thousands and thousands and thousands of Buddhists, but maybe a small handful of monks who become celibate.

It's a very specific, particular way to practice Buddhism.

It's not the only way.

I'm inquiring about this subject because it's actually because of a conversation I was having with a really good friend of mine over New Year's who's had some troubles in his life,

has struggled in relationships, has struggled professionally, has also struggled a little bit with purpose and meaning, and has now sort of started to investigate religion.

And one of the things he said to me, because there's a particular stranglehold that his sexual desires has over him, is that he was thinking about abstaining from masturbation and sex just for a short period of time.

And I think actually the reason for that is kind of what you've described there, which is just to try and separate, get back control from desire.

He'll need to meditate.

Because just abstaining from the thing you want to, the thing you're desperate to do and you're abstaining, almost like locking yourself in a cage and saying,

I won't do that thing, then what are you replacing it with?

So, for example, when I work in, you know, I often teach meditation in drug rehab centers.

I talk a lot about how, okay, yes, you've had to give up the drug that was making you ill, but that's not the whole story.

The rest of the story is,

what are you going to do about the mind that is addicted to that substance?

And how are you going to resolve that?

How are you going to fill the hole inside that was craving something?

Okay.

So with the meditation, you're not just giving up something, you're learning to

fill your own

spirit with something more positive for yourself.

Almost to heal from the thing that was having desire.

Yeah, yeah.

Desire is such an interesting thing because

we think we want something,

but what's going on under the desire is a feeling of lack, a feeling of hopelessness, a feeling I don't have, there's something missing.

And so meditation is about filling that with light and with love.

You know, the deepest addiction we all have is the addiction to our own thoughts.

That's really the root of it all, is that a wanting thought arises in my mind, and then I jump on it and I want to get something to kind of alleviate that.

But it's that internal attachment.

Buddhism talks a lot about non-attachment, and I think this is widely misunderstood.

People think it means you're supposed to be, you know, detached and have no friends and be unattached.

It doesn't mean that at all.

It means how we're so attached to our thoughts and our emotions, and they get into the driving seat and send our life in all kinds of directions we don't want it to go in.

How do we learn to transform that inner attachment to the thought itself?

And that's obviously where meditation comes in.

Let's talk about Buddhism then.

So I said to you before we started recording that in the last sort of 12 months or so, I've got really interested in Buddhism.

I started reading some books about Buddhism and I find it to be most aligned with

it sounds like a strange thing to say, but I'm going to say it anyway,

with almost like the medication that I need.

And I know it's not a medication, but

it is a deep medicine.

It's a medicine, it's a science.

To me, it's not so much a religion.

It is more of a medicine or a science.

Yeah, I've struggled with the religions.

I was Christian growing up, but I've struggled with like deities and gods and these kinds of things because there's like 5,000 different gods through history.

So I don't really know which one's real.

And there's lots of books.

And I'm still on that journey.

But when I found Buddhism, it wasn't framed like the other religions.

I thought it was much more compelling.

What is Buddhism?

Can you tell me where it's come from?

Is it a religion?

Is there a God?

Do I have to worship?

Do I go to hell, heaven?

There's nothing to worship at all.

Buddhism is a path to

inner internal understanding.

The word Buddha means awake.

And yes, Buddhism has a history in that there was somebody called the Buddha in India 2,500 years ago who attained awakening and gave teachings.

Buddh-ism, you could call it that, has come from there.

But actually, this word Buddhism is a modern word, ism, it's a modern word.

In the original languages of Buddhism, such as Sanskrit and Tibetan,

you find terms that are so different from religion.

You find terms such as the science of awareness or

the examination of awakening, the

inner awareness.

It's a path of mental discovery.

It's a science.

So it's not a religion, per se?

Technically, it is.

If you define a religion as a group spiritual purpose, and there are monasteries, there are organizations within Buddhism but it also defies most categorizations around

religion

because it doesn't believe in a creator it doesn't believe in somebody somebody to worship it but it's really about the power of your own mind

and is there a hell and a heaven in Buddhism they talk about hell and heaven as

states of mind they talk about everything as a state of mind they say this is a state of mind Buddhism is very much about exploring the fabric of reality.

This table, this body, this so-called self,

ideas of hell, heaven.

They say these are all mental experiences.

Everything is mind, according to Buddhism.

So you get to the monastery.

Yeah.

Talk to me about your journey of healing.

So I was quite ill for a while in the monastery, and they kind of left me alone.

They let me rest a lot.

I did

little bits of light work around the monastery, started to meditate.

You know, I actually hated meditation when I first did it.

This was a problem.

You know, I believed in it.

I grew up in a Buddhist family.

There's been this kind of faith in Buddhism as I grew up, but I never actually did anything.

I never meditated.

Then I get to a monastery, I become a monk.

and then I read the small print, you know, you've got to meditate.

And I hated it.

I really, really hated it.

And I thought, oh,

what am I going to do?

I really don't enjoy this at all.

I find it an enormous struggle.

So I struggled a lot with meditation in those early days, days, weeks, months even.

Why did you hate it?

I hated it because

I was doing it in a way that was making me more stressed.

I would sit down.

I thought that meditation is about clearing the mind.

I'd heard this phrase, clear your mind.

I thought, that's what you do.

So I sat there trying to clear my mind.

And the more I tried to clear my mind, the louder it was shouting.

And that, particularly, that negative voice I told you about, that you are no good, you're rubbish,

you're awful, you'll fail, that became louder and louder.

And so the meditation became incredibly stressful because I thought, I can't do this.

I can't get rid of my thoughts.

Of course, now since now I've discovered it's nothing to do with clearing the mind, but because I thought it was, I struggled enormously.

What is it then?

It's nothing to do with clearing the mind.

It's not about putting yourself in an unconscious state at all.

It's about working with your mind.

So it's about learning how to be less controlled by your mind,

but it's not about getting rid of the thoughts.

In fact, the thoughts are quite helpful.

You know, they actually help you to meditate.

You see, what I was doing in those early days was I thought, okay, just sit down and just

push everything away and go into the kind of Zen state.

And of course, that's just like suppression, isn't it?

You're just trying to suppress, you're trying to push.

It's like trying to get a small child to sit still in their high chair while you're feeding them.

They're going to want to move around.

So

it's not about that pushing away of thoughts.

I mean, you've got to ask yourself if that was the aim, well, why would it be the aim?

Imagine if you could clear your mind.

So what?

You have 10 minutes of just being blank

and then you carry on with your day.

Where's the journey?

What journey is that?

You just passed out on the floor for 10 minutes.

Might as well asleep or something.

Yeah, yeah.

And I can fully understand that if you're

if you're really stirred up and miserable and stressed, the idea of 10 minutes of switching it off would be great, but it's not the solution.

It doesn't work.

What is the solution?

So it is definitely about changing your relationship with your thoughts.

So,

okay, so a typical meditation practice is you sit and you focus on your breathing.

It's different from breath work.

You're not breathing in a particular way.

You're not trying to breathe slowly, deeply, or anything.

You're just breathing normally.

You know, just let the breath do its own thing and you're focused on it.

So on paper, paper that sounds really clear and clean and simple, focus on your breath.

The reality is it's really messy because you focus on your breath and within a few seconds you're thinking about shopping lists or food or sex or anything.

You know, the mind just goes.

That's when the work starts because at some point you realize your mind has wandered.

Okay, that's when many people think they've failed.

You know, they were meditating, they were with the breath, and then they realize they're thinking thinking about emails they need to write or shopping or whatever.

And then they think, oh,

I'm a failure, and they very angrily bring themselves back to the breath.

That's just going to make you more stressed because you're actually training in feeling like a failure.

You know what I mean?

I can relate.

I mean, it takes me seven seconds to drift off when I'm trying to meditate.

So it's not that at all.

It's that

you're with the breath.

And then your mind wanders.

It's not even that you see your mind wandering.

You kind of find out afterwards, don't don't you?

It's not like I'm with the breath and I can see my mind step away from the breath and then go to a thought.

It's more that I'm with my breath.

I pass out and I wake up the other side of town.

That is the meditation, waking up inside your thoughts.

That is the definition of meditation.

So you haven't failed at all.

You are meditating because what happened was you were with the breath, you got lost, you lost your mind, and then you found your mind again.

Because you're back.

You suddenly realize, oh, where was I I'm supposed to be meditating so that is meditation you're back with your awareness and then you gently bring yourself back to the breath and actually all you're doing is those three things throughout the session either you're with the breath or you're noticing that you got lost or you're returning

and it's that that returning that makes you strong

Every time you return to the breath, you are making a very powerful decision.

That's the attachment or the addiction to the thoughts.

The mind was lost in those thoughts, and you are recapturing your attention and bringing it back.

So you are choosing where to send your mind.

And if you do this like an exercise, almost like going to the gym and getting strong day after day, week after week,

you're teaching yourself how to choose to be happy and how to choose not to suffer.

So, such a simple technique on paper, you know, focus on your breath, come back when you get lost,

is actually

profoundly transformative psychologically.

Because I think most people listening to this assume that they're kind of strapped to their thoughts, and their thoughts are the car driving wherever it wants to go, and we're just strapped to the back of it, our ankles tied to the back of it with a piece of rope.

Yeah, absolutely.

And we just kind of suffer consequences of hijacked by our thoughts.

Yeah, hijacked is a great, great, you know, it's stormed the like pilot's cabin and it's flying us

wherever it wants to go.

Exactly.

That's kind of the experience we have.

So then meditation puts you behind the wheel of the car.

Most people haven't had the experience you've had training yourself to sort of disassociate or realize that you're not your thoughts.

So as someone that's on the other side of this practice,

how can you persuade me that My life will be better if I listen to this?

Like, what's the before and after, I guess, for you?

So I don't think everybody everybody has to join a monastery and do extreme retreats and the kind of things I do.

Maybe that's

my kind of extreme nature.

I have so many friends who meditate while they have families and busy jobs and they do 15 minutes a day or twice a day or whatever.

It can absolutely be done in anybody's lifestyle.

But the whole point is that you are learning to find your own inner freedom.

You're learning how to discover that you are bigger than the pain and suffering that seems to drive your life.

Because what I described earlier with the coming back to the breath is that first stage of learning to gain a bit more power around what your mind is doing.

And then what is so interesting is when you start to think about,

okay, when I'm unhappy or when I'm angry or whatever,

If I am observing myself being unhappy, is the observer unhappy?

Is the observer angry?

And if I feel angry and I know I'm angry, the part of my mind that's looking at the anger cannot be angry because it's seeing the anger.

So in Buddhism, they use a metaphor to describe this, which is the sky and the clouds.

The clouds can be heavy and rainy and all of that, but the sky is always bigger than the clouds.

So our awareness of our minds, that's where we can find...

our freedom.

And when we talk about seeking purpose and seeking what are we looking for in life, I think that's what we're looking for all the time in everything we do, whether it be big life goals or, you know, drinking a cup of coffee or water, small moments.

In every moment, we're looking for release or freedom.

We think we're looking to feel happy or we think we're looking for love or sex or whatever it is.

But I think what we're really looking for is to free ourselves.

from suffering and to free ourselves from need and to be free, to be more in touch with who we really are.

I think that's what we're looking for.

And when you meditate and you step back and look at your mind, that observational

aspect is key.

To become the sky.

Yeah, to become the sky rather than the clouds.

And then I think it can change your life because

you...

You know, when I first met my teacher, he was quite a straight-talking person.

He wouldn't,

say much and what he said was often could sound a little bit harsh, but he said it with love.

And when I first met him, I'd go on about all the stuff that was happening with me or had happened with me or to me.

And he just said, stop taking yourself so seriously.

And initially, that could sound like a slap in the face.

I mean, imagine if you went to a therapist and they said,

what you've been through is peanuts, stop taking yourself seriously.

But he didn't mean it like that.

What he meant was, stop clinging to a kind of solidity.

Stop making your thoughts and feelings and your past and make it so solid.

Try to be the sky instead of the clouds.

Try to step back and be less solid about everything.

Buddhism is very much into this

notion that they call emptiness, which isn't emptiness in terms of a kind of vacuous void, but more

that things are illusory, things aren't as real and solid and heavy as we think they are.

And I think meditation can help us to think more in that way and find more happiness, real happiness, not the happiness that depends on, I will be happy if,

I will be happy when, I can only be happy because.

That's a very limited happiness.

But imagine if you could be happy no matter what.

Is that what Buddhism helps us to do?

I think Buddhism is about freedom, and I think freedom is happy no matter what.

And I think more than that, I think it's also about compassion.

The way I'm describing it could sound like this is all just about one's own personal development and freeing oneself oneself and becoming happier but the key point is we're living in a connection a world of connection and how can we genuinely help others I think through freeing our minds and helping others to do the same can I be in that state of mind where I am the sky while also being incredibly effective in my job as a CEO yeah I think this is this is possibly one of the misconceptions you know this is something I came across quite early on in when I was teaching meditation I started to give talks about meditation in the workplace like 25 years ago.

So before it became very popular, now mindfulness is everywhere in the corporate world.

But when I started, it was quite unusual.

And I did come across a lot of misconceptions.

The funniest one was before I went into a boardroom to talk to the people in there about meditation, their

CEO took me to the side and he said,

please don't make them too relaxed.

I said, what do you mean?

He said, well, I like what you do, but I don't want them to become too relaxed.

I said, I'm not some kind of like stage hypnotist.

I'm not going to walk into there and sort of, you know, put everyone into a trance.

That's not what I do.

But it was such an interesting conversation because it made me see that his

view of meditation is that you would become this kind of spaced out, happy with everything, don't care, and you'd lose your drive.

And it's absolutely not that at all, because it's about precision, it's about being present, it's about being less controlled by distraction, be less controlled by negative thinking.

And if you can do that, you can achieve more.

So if you are a CEO, if you are

trying to achieve something in your work and you meditate, it can make you can work much, much harder and get less tired.

And then also, you can start to think more deeply about why am I doing the things I'm doing?

And what am I really trying to achieve here?

Some of the most famous CEOs in the world talk about their meditation practice, and this is why I've also been slightly compelled into it.

I think for me, I'm the type of person that's very influenced by other people that I kind of look up to.

And so someone like Steve Jobs, who I think had a deep sort of spiritual practice which involved meditation, which I also think he cites as being much of the reason he was able to see around the corner and be more of a visionary,

was one of the big points of inspiration for me to get more curious about Buddhism and meditation.

Do you have any examples of like very high productive, very successful people that have had tremendous benefits from meditation as it relates to them being more successful in their missions, their professional missions?

I mean, I can't think of specific individual names, but it's just generally very well known that if you meditate, it makes you more effective in your life because you are becoming your own boss.

I mean, we talk about being your own boss, but how many of us are really, really our own boss?

You know, we can be the boss of other people, we can be the boss of our environment to a certain extent, but to be the CEO of your own mind,

very,

very difficult.

And so, people who can do that definitely become more effective in the world.

But I think what also happens is they start to think about how they could be really successful and then do some good with that success.

because they

They start to think about well is it all just about the success and the wealth or is there something I could do with that success and wealth because meditation makes you more compassionate Meditation makes you more ethical it makes you and not ethical in a kind of you know the word ethics sounds so kind of Victorian and so kind of restrictive, but I mean

trying to make the world a better place.

And I think there are many examples of people who've become enormously successful and used that success for the good of the world.

And I think meditation is something key in their success.

I was just looking for a couple of examples.

And Ray Dalio, who a lot of people know is one of the best investors in the world, who wrote the book Principles, said, meditation more than anything in my life is the biggest ingredient of whatever success I've had.

And Mark Benioff, who's the CEO of Salesforce, a tremendously large company, said, meditation is the most important thing I do each day.

Oprah Winfrey, Jack Dorsey, let's say, who's a co-founder of Twitter and Square, said, there's nothing more impactful on my work than meditation.

And Steve Jobs said, if you just sit and observe, you will see how restless your mind is.

If you try to calm it, it only makes it worse, but over time, it does calm.

And he practiced Zen Buddhism and was a regular meditator.

And he says that his minimalist design philosophy and focus were strongly influenced by his spiritual and meditative practices.

You see, I think that the

thing that trips people up when they think about how meditation could make you more effective is the word calm

because they think well if I become calm I'm gonna be I'm gonna miss

I'm not gonna be workaholic I'm gonna drop the ball yeah if I'm too calm

but I don't think of calm in that way at all as almost like a tranquilized calm I think of calm as being able to keep a cool head under fire and be really precise and really on the focus on in the now

and really hold on to your purpose and know why you're doing what you're doing and be less influenced by the areas of your psychology that trip you up.

I'm hearing like clarity and

emotional control.

Yeah, optimizing how your brain performs.

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Earlier on you said that in Buddhism they talk about an emptiness, which is kind of this realizing that life isn't so solid and your identity is a mirage and all these kinds of things.

It almost sounded like that's the opposite of like victimhood.

Because when we think about victimhood, it is i create an identity for myself and then i create a story around that identity which has suffered some kind of injustice and then i kind of live out that injustice how does buddhism think about victimhood and identity and trauma i guess so of course we identify incredibly strongly with our past and we in so many ways are prisoners of what has happened to us in our past and it It's totally understandable, of course.

But Buddhism brings in a whole fresh perspective, which is that you are not your past.

I mean, even on a physical level, every cell in your body has changed and your mind has changed.

You are right now in the present.

The past is an illusion, as is the future.

And we spend so much time in the past and future or trying to manipulate the present.

Whereas with meditation, you're learning to be in the now and not be

it doesn't mean you don't plan or don't remember, but you're learning to cling less to to the past and future.

And you're learning to cling less to or hold less to the idea that things are really as solid as you think they are.

I mean, it's very scientific.

There's a Buddhist meditation, which literally is about a table.

Like, you know, here we are with this table.

And they say, if you take apart this table, you'll find it doesn't exist.

Because the table, as it seems right now,

is a top with legs.

You take the bits apart.

And now, where is your notion of table?

You've got these bits of wood or metal or whatever it is, and you start kind of dissecting that further and further and further.

This is where Buddhism and particle physics become, you know, talking a lot.

There's a lot of conversation there, in that the smaller and smaller you go into these

wood shavings and then particles.

And can you find the smallest part that makes up all of reality?

And Buddhists would say no, because if it's a part, it has parts.

There is no such thing as the partless particle, because if it's a particle, it can be further subdivided.

So

we can't find the smallest base that makes up all of matter.

What we're experiencing is more like a dream or an illusion.

And the reality we live in, of course, it feels very solid.

You know,

if I throw this cup at somebody, it's going to hit their head and hurt them.

There's no point saying, well, it's all empty, don't worry about it.

But the idea behind this philosophy of understanding understanding things not to be as solid as they are is that we can learn to suffer less because we spend so much of our energy constantly reacting to things as if they're really solid and really real and there's nothing that can be done about them, whether that be people or objects in the world around us or our mind itself.

And if we can desolidify some of that, we could become more free.

We all carry so many burdens in this regard.

You know, it could be grief, it could be heartbreak, it could be a colleague at work that doesn't dislike us, a comment in our Instagram page of

something someone said about us.

How does one go about

alleviating ourselves from this kind of burden?

Yeah, so I, for me, it's very much about

dropping the story

and looking at the feeling.

Okay, explain that to me.

So

for me, this became a very,

very

important practice for me when I was in a long retreat.

So I went into a very long retreat for four years.

I became a monk for a year, and I stayed a bit longer, stayed a bit longer.

It was after about four years that I decided to do this for life, and I took lifelong vows.

And then I knew about these long retreats.

I did some short retreats, but I knew about these long retreats.

But it wasn't until 12 years later that the opportunity came up to go into a long retreat,

four years long, where you are really just cut off from the world for that length of time.

Nobody goes in or out, and you are meditating many, many hours a day.

And it was the most frightening experience of my life because I was in there alone with my own thoughts and emotions.

It's not a completely solitary retreat.

There are other monks there all doing their own meditation in their rooms.

So there is a kind of group, but you are very much alone as well.

And for me, the whole thing was, for the first two years,

was was just horrific amounts of depression, misery, pain, anguish, anxiety that would build into panic attacks.

I was really, really shocked by what happened to me in there

because I think I thought I'd, you know, I'd been a monk for 12 years and I'd already started to,

you know, give a few talks about meditation and

maybe I thought I was quite sorted, but I wasn't.

And I got in there and really fell apart.

But it was an amazing thing that happened to me because that falling apart forced me after a while to learn how to engage with what I'm talking about, which is looking at the suffering and working with that with meditation.

Looking at the suffering.

So, for me, during those first two years of the retreat,

I was completely obsessed with the story because I was experiencing these horrendous feelings of heartbreak

and feelings of depression, anxiety, just kind of a whole

mass of suffering inside myself.

And I was trying to almost do therapy on myself and think, okay, let's, you know, thinking that memories were coming up from the past and thinking about things that had happened in my past.

And is this why I'm suffering now?

And how do I resolve that?

And the more I went down that road, the worse it got.

And I found myself really disconnected from Buddhism.

And it was a really frightening experience because I'm there in a four-year retreat, I'm a monk, and I was feeling completely alienated from the whole thing.

I kind of wanted to just get away from it.

I wanted to run away.

And things only changed when I hit rock bottom, like

hugely, in that I actually

climbed over the wall of the retreat to run away.

I couldn't take it anymore.

At one morning, I had the most immense panic attack I've ever had, and I just

saw red and just ran.

I legged it out of the retreat, which is unthinkable.

You know, in a four-year retreat, you're not supposed to leave.

But I jumped over the wall and tried to escape.

I say tried to escape as if I was in some kind of prison or cult.

It's not like that.

People do leave retreats, but for me, it was this kind of dramatic get out of there and run away.

And

I remember

like freaking out and running and running and running down this road in the rain.

This was on a very, you know, remote area of a Scottish island.

And then just stopping and thinking, what are you doing?

What has happened to you?

And I just stopped and then went back.

And I asked the leaders of the retreat if I could be let back in.

And they said, well, no, you've left.

But I really begged them because I had such clarity in that moment.

I wanted to go back in.

And they said, okay.

The abbot of my monastery said, okay,

stay in a little caravan on the edge of the retreat boundary for a week, for seven days, and think about what you're doing.

And then we'll see if you will let you back in.

And during that time,

I thought really deeply, and I really knew I wanted to go back in.

Because there was at that moment a thought of, shall I give up being a monk?

Shall I give up the whole thing?

I can't do this.

It's made me so miserable.

But I really knew in that moment what

my purpose was.

I knew I wanted to go back in and carry on.

But I also knew I'd been

tormenting myself with my past and that I hadn't worked out

how to heal myself.

I'd been sinking so badly.

And if I was to go back in there, I would have to try a completely new approach.

Why did you choose to go back in?

Because I really strongly believed that it was what I want to do with my life.

And a part of me thought, don't give something up when you're freaking out

because you will regret it.

If you're going to give this thing up, give it up from a place of clarity, knowing that there's something better for you out there.

Don't give up because you're having a panic attack and you can't take it.

That's the wrong kind of timing to make a life change.

Because

I really do believe in what I'm doing.

This is the life I've chosen for myself, and I want to do it.

But it got so difficult, I couldn't take it anymore.

Why did you want to do it?

If something is painful and causing you anxiety,

because I felt that this

pain I'm going through,

the methods are there.

I just need to know how to use them and I could learn to conquer this.

This pain could be the breakthrough.

Most people in their lives, when they think about the things that give them anxiety or pain or fear, you know, we live as sort of discomfort avoiding humans.

So we try and

run to comfort or pleasure.

Exactly.

So life is hard.

Let's run from it.

Exactly.

Let's get on a plane, fly to another country and try and just set up a new life somewhere else.

It doesn't work because you go to your new life, and the thing that has been haunting you like a shadow goes with you.

You can't run from yourself.

You can run to the end of the earth, and that thing

that has been tormenting you is part of you.

And until you learn to integrate that, it will always trip you up.

And so, I went back into that retreat knowing, okay, this is your last chance.

If you don't, if you, if you mess this up again, that's it.

You know, forget it.

So it was a real like make or break situation.

And I went back in and I

everything changed

because I found I

had to find a new, a different way of dealing with that suffering.

What was that?

Okay, so I'm back in there and it's coming up again.

The depression, the anxiety, the

pain.

To me, it felt like

it felt like

something that was piercing me.

It felt like there was like a knife constantly twisting, twisting and turning in my heart, or like in the middle of me.

It was really painful.

And what I'd been doing up until that point was just trying to get that knife out and also thinking why is it there?

Is it because of what happened to me when I was 14?

Is it what happened to me when I was 17?

Is it this?

Is it that?

Is it my family?

What is it?

That's the story.

I say story,

I'm not belittling people's stories.

I'm just saying it's the narrative, isn't it?

So I decided to use the knife as the meditation

to actually meditate on it.

And the whole thing starts to change when you do that.

Because

until that point, you've been trying to get rid of your suffering or get rid of your pain.

But if you turn your pain into your meditation, you're moving towards it.

And

how can it hurt you if you've decided to move towards it?

You've made that choice.

So what I started to do was just focus on the pain, but try to bypass the judgments.

I don't like this, this is so terrible, why am I depressed?

Why am I anxious?

And just feel the feeling, and it's a sensation in the body.

Because one of the key

instructions in meditation is when you focus your mind, you focus it with less judgment.

This is good, this is bad.

You just focus.

So you're focusing on that feeling without pushing it away, without saying, Why do I feel like this?

But just the feeling.

And

it starts to change.

It starts to change because

you're accepting it.

My teachers had always said to me, they'd always go on and on about acceptance, and I just wanted to hit them when they said it because it sounded so grim.

You know, you've got to accept yourself or you've got to accept your suffering.

To me, that sounded like you're going to, for the rest of your life, be dragging this bag of rocks up a hill.

You know, acceptance is so miserable and so boring.

I didn't realize that what they meant was

compassion and self-acceptance at a very, very deep level.

So I'm focusing on that feeling in my body and trying not to go into the stories about it or the hatred of it and just move towards it and kind of

become one with that pain.

And then you relax and something kind of releases.

And I mean, I think it works on a chemical level because basically

when you're trying to push pain away, you're creating enormous amounts of cortisol in your body, the stress hormone.

When you relax, the endorphins arise, you start to feel happy.

I mean, it's quite bizarre that the thing that has hurt you so much starts to turn into a kind of joyful feeling.

And you start to think, oh, wow, okay, so happiness is nothing to do with somebody being nice to me or this object or that thing.

Happiness is about being okay with your suffering

and

not just being okay with it, but actually sending love into the place in yourself that you hated so much.

So for me,

what started to change was

from having a feeling like a knife twisting inside me and hurting me and wanting to get rid of it,

I found ways to hold that with love.

And I started to have this image in my head of as if I had found a

like a frightened rabbit or a bird with a broken wing and I'm holding that in my my hand with tenderness.

I'd never been able to do that for myself.

I had never,

ever been able to be kind to myself.

Everything in my life up until that point had been so harsh and so

self-hating.

And I think, you know, in my teenage years when I was trying to become a successful actor, I think that was the drive:

I hate myself, so I better get loads of people to love me instead because I can't do it.

I'm not saying all actors are like that, by no means, but there is a kind of actor who is like that.

We know that, and that was me.

And then, you know, even as

a monk, and you become celibate, and you're, you know, having this kind of more like looking after yourself lifestyle, I develop all these incredibly strong attachments with friends where I'd want them to be nice to me, and I didn't want to be alone with myself.

I couldn't spend time alone with myself.

And then, in the first two years of that retreat, I'm hating myself and hating my pain, and jumping over the wall, and anything to kind of jump out of my own skin.

And when I learned how to do this kind of practice with sending compassion into that part of myself that I'd hated so much,

it was really transformative.

You said it felt like holding a scared rabbit or a bird with a broken wing.

How did you come to feel about that bird?

I felt I felt felt love for that part of myself.

And for me, that's only possible when you stop getting so distracted by all the history and

the details of your past, but you're just relating to the feeling in your body right now.

And I don't know if it's like this for everybody, but for me, feeling it in the body is a really easy way to start because,

yeah, it's depression, it's anxiety, it's trauma, whatever it is, that's quite kind of nebulous.

How do you find it?

And for me, it was so physical.

It was like this twisting of a knife in the heart or sinking feeling in the chest.

And just to relate to that sensation with kindness taught me how to love myself

in an accepting way, you know, not it's not about, you know,

becoming an egomaniac, like I love myself.

It's more have kindness for yourself.

How does this translate to things like grief?

Because grief is one of the hardest things to get to acceptance on, the sort of finality of life, losing someone you love.

You've been through this yourself.

You had a, I think, a best friend of yours who was...

Well, my teacher.

Oh, your teacher?

Well, he was my best friend as well as my teacher.

He was murdered.

So 11 years ago, my teacher, Akon Rinpoche, who had been my everything for all those years, you know, he was my teacher, my closest friend.

I spent a lot of time with him.

I became his kind of assistant.

So when he would travel, I was with him all the time.

So we were very close.

He was Tibetan and he was in charge of our monastery in Scotland.

And part of his work was he would run a charity called ROCPA, which has oh, that's him.

He would go to Tibet every year and

look after projects there, feeding orphans, looking after schools, hospitals, etc.

He was on his way to Tibet one year, and he was in Chengdu in China, and he was basically ambushed and stabbed, killed.

And

I mean, this completely rocked the Buddhist world.

It's like, you know, horrendous news.

But on a personal level for me,

I was one of the first people who found out.

I'd been on the phone to him every day until then.

I was his assistant and working very closely with him.

So

it completely blew me apart.

I mean, it blew me to pieces.

I cannot describe how badly it blew me to pieces.

But

the meditation I've described to you

saw me through.

Because I,

at some point during that grieving process, I remembered what to do.

At first, I didn't, because you know, when you're really really in it,

you can't think, but then

so there was the whole aftermath.

You know, he was killed, and it was in all the press, and then as his assistant, I was the one dealing with the media.

And in a way, that same busy, when you're grieving, it kind of helps you to, you know, stay focused.

But then the nights, the nights was nighttime, was when it started to hurt.

Because at night, I would just be tossing and turning and feeling like

feeling like I was on fire.

Because I had a mixture of grief, anger, despair.

There was a whole mixture of things.

We knew the killer.

The person who murdered him had been a monk, a Tibetan.

He had been a monk in our monastery.

We knew him.

He actually had the same name as me.

And we knew him quite well.

So there was all of that mixed in with what on earth happened to this person that he did this thing.

And

so all of of that is consuming me at night, and I'm just tossing and turning, feeling like I'm in flames.

And then at some point, it kicked in.

The meditation,

it just happened because I'd done it in retreat, it had seen me through it, had really, really helped me.

And at some point, I just

had to lie there and send love into the flames in me.

You know, I had to send that kindness into the place I was in despair.

I'm not saying that I then just became all right, no, but it absolutely calmed things, absolutely.

And

it is all about love.

It really is.

You are sending love into the pain you are experiencing.

And this helped me through the grief.

It helped me also with forgiveness, with the guy we knew who did it.

It helped me on so many levels.

And I'm not saying that, you know, it's all okay, but I have, I've made peace with his death.

And

I mean, he taught me this practice.

He taught me how to do that.

And then he died, and I had to do it.

I think of it as his last gift to me.

And

I will be forever grateful.

When you talk about sending love into the flames, what is the actual practice there?

Is it certain sentences you're saying?

No,

I'm glad you you asked this because it is so much about going beyond the words and going into an experience of oneness.

So, to make it really practical, you know,

you're feeling incredible trauma in your body.

Finding it physically is the easiest way to do it.

Like, your body's in flames, or you've got like a feeling of a knife twisting in your heart, whatever it is, there's this feeling in the body.

And first of all, you just focus on that feeling.

So, anybody who meditates knows how to focus on their breathing.

It's the same thing, it's just where you're focusing.

So, you're feeling the feeling,

and you're trying to bypass the thoughts of this is uncomfortable, I want this to go away, why did he die, what happened?

You're just feeling the feeling,

and then you pay attention to that feeling in a loving way.

You flood it with love.

And the reason this is possible, I mean, this is touching upon

a major belief in Buddhist philosophy, which is that our minds are naturally compassionate.

We are not

these fight-or-flight killing machines that some people like to think the human being is.

We are.

Our natural state is to be kind.

It is who we are naturally deep down.

So when you clear away all the words and the ideas and you just sit with the feeling and you send love into that feeling with your mind, you're just loving that feeling, holding it with compassion.

As if you were with a friend who was grieving,

if you were sitting with a friend who was freaking out or grieving or whatever,

you're not going to slap them around the face and say, snap out of it.

You will hold their hand.

And we all know how to do that.

The question is, can you do it for yourself?

And for me, that was a huge challenge because I hated myself so much for so many years.

I was my worst enemy.

So, to hold my own hand internally in that sense, that's what I mean by sending love into the feeling.

And what happens then is the feeling starts to change,

it starts to melt, the sharpness, the sharp

edges of it start to melt, and you start to be okay with being not okay.

And

it's almost as if a kind of happiness starts to arise, but it's not like a

kind of happiness you haven't tasted before,

it's a happiness of I can be okay with this.

It makes you immensely strong.

You talked about forgiveness.

Did you forgive the man that murdered your friend and teacher?

Yes,

quite quickly.

I mean, in a way, it was made easier because it became really clear that he was psychotic.

And of course, that's no excuse or condoning or anything like that, but somebody who is

really unable to control themselves, I mean, how can you hate them or whatever?

You know, it's

that's an extreme case, but there are

the practice of forgiveness is a hard one, isn't it?

Because we've all got people in our lives that we think might have wronged us or done something to us which has caused us pain constantly.

And almost the way that we

create our own perception of justice is by holding the grudge yeah now now why do we do that that's my that's the question is do we think

do we think that if we let go of the grudge we have let the other person get away with it that's how it kind of feels right

wouldn't you say that by holding the grudge they've got away with it

because you're the one suffering.

They've really won.

They're winning in each moment.

Because you're holding on to that.

In Buddhism, there's a teaching that says it's like holding onto a piece of hot metal or holding a hot coal in your hand.

And it's just burning you.

So if I'm holding the grudge, they have absolutely got away with it because they are the thing they did, which was one thing, maybe,

I am now constantly hurting.

And they are absolutely the winner.

So

I wonder if we assume, I think we do assume that forgiveness is a kind of giving up, even the word forgive, the give in the word.

So it sounds like we're taking a weaker position, we're giving up, we're sort of surrendering.

But I think forgiveness is a strength or a power.

And

it's actually nothing to do with the other person.

You're not going to necessarily write them a letter and say, I've forgiven you, but you're freeing yourself.

You're dropping your burden.

Because that rage is toxic and that hurt is toxic.

But it's so hard to let let go of it.

And people can say let go and you just want to slap them in the face because, what, okay, is it that easy?

I'm just going to let go.

You know, it's not that easy.

It's bloody hard.

But meditation gives you the tools.

Partly because meditation anyway is helping to loosen up that kind of glue that we have in our minds where we're glued into those feelings.

Even just a simple meditation, like coming back to the breath, is helping you to be less glued into those thoughts and reactions and feelings so the feeling of rage can start to be less heavy for you.

You've been through several sort of traumatic incidents.

You talked about being 14, being 17, sexual abuse, parental divorce, a little bit of neglect it sounds like as well.

Have you forgiven all of those people in your life?

I don't know.

I don't know if forgiveness is a big, huge, massive moment or if it's a process.

I'm friends with all those people,

very close friends with all those people.

And I think,

here's what I think.

I think I've learned how to forgive the feelings

that those incidents

gave rise to.

That to me is much more important than forgiving the people.

And I think what's also happened to me is I've started to find find that the suffering

that I experience has some use

because it is the thing that you're using for your mental transformation.

Rinpoche always used to say, suffering is like compost.

Compost is made of rotten vegetables.

People chuck it away, or they know how to make the field grow.

And I think it's like that.

So, with forgiveness,

I would say, yeah, meditation, but I would say also

thinking deeply about

the situation.

You know, what's really helped me

with my dad and with other people

is to think about the suffering they were going through that kind of like propelled them to behave the way they've behaved.

There's always something, isn't there, in somebody that has made them behave the way they behave.

And there's a part of us that gets very indignant and thinks, how dare they?

They should know better.

Whereas the Buddhist answer would be, well, what do you mean they should know better?

They know what they know.

They are driven by their own confusion and their own pain.

Why do you think they were out to get you?

Why do you think they were deliberately out to maliciously get you?

Weren't they just caught in their own suffering and you were there?

But it's not so much about you.

And I think that starts to lighten the burden a bit when you start to think about,

you know, there's a meditation I sometimes do where you swap places with the other person in your mind.

You sit and you think about being them and looking at the world out of their eyes.

The person that hurt you.

Yeah.

So many people will be thinking about that person in their life as you speak, and they'll be, the challenge I guess they'll face is they'll continually come back to this idea that this person is an asshole.

Yeah.

They, you know, it almost all are though.

We are too.

We all are.

I am.

We're all.

Because we're all just confused.

We're all at the mercy of our own minds.

If you meditate regularly, you realize how out of control you are.

Because you're trying to sit there with your breathing, and all you're thinking about is shopping lists.

And you think, wow, the human mind is really pretty messed up.

We can't make it do anything we want it to do.

So this person that you think they're so evil and so terrible, and how dare they do the thing they've done, I'm not saying that we're condoning it and saying, yeah, you can do what you want.

I'm just saying lighten up a bit because people are just doing their best and sometimes their best is really bad.

Then that doesn't have to become your problem.

It's not really about you.

We obviously take things personally.

If something is done to you, of course you're going to take it personally.

But meditation helps you look at the 360 degree view of a situation rather than just from your perspective.

And

very important here that we don't get into that kind of victim shaming reality where you think, oh, it's all about me and poor them.

It's not that at all.

It's simply that you think

we're all messed up in various ways and that's the human condition.

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Many of us live trapped in the life we have, or I guess maybe the word trapped isn't the right word, but held back in many ways because of fear.

And I wondered what Buddhism teaches us about fear in terms of fear of

taking risks or you know going and becoming a Buddhist monk, or starting a business, or pursuing a passion, or moving to Bali.

Many of us have these dreams, these callings, but we're trapped in fear.

And would you also agree that the fear can be about those bigger things, but also it's a moment-to-moment subtle anxiety that just like pervades everything?

Yeah, it's both.

To me, this became hugely

obvious when I came out of that four-year retreat

because I I came out that retreat was 2005 to 2009

when I came out of that retreat everybody had smartphones

during those four years the whole landscape of technology changed dramatically smartphones social media the whole thing happened during that time and you hadn't been on the internet

no no we had nothing before my retreat some people had blackberries and then that was it and then suddenly it's all different and i arrived in london and everybody's walking around with their face buried in phones.

And I'm walking, you know, going up the escalator and the tube in London and the little billboards of moving images, that made me feel dizzy.

But where I'm going with this is

maybe because I've been in this unusual environment and now I'm back in normal reality, I see it with more of a shock.

And I started to think, how much are we being made to feel afraid all the time?

When news media becomes digitalized and monetized, and then you have to keep the person reading, we know the tricks that people have to do.

We all know about clickbait, we all know about how the headline of an article has to be shocking enough to make you read the article and then you see the ads.

You don't actually find out the information until two-thirds of the way down.

You know, we know that.

And we're all wise to that on one level, and on the other level, we're completely influenced by it.

So, we're now walking around in a world where we're constantly being told we are in danger.

I'm not here to, you know, I'm not anti-technology.

It's great.

It can do so many good things, but it's like food.

You've got to eat it in the right way.

If you overeat, you get sick.

If you're not discerning about what you eat, you're going to get ill.

It's the same with technology.

And so,

yeah, fear is now used in every walk of life.

Fear is used more than ever in politics to make us afraid so that we vote for people because of fear.

Fear is used so much now to make us go shopping, hurry up while stocks last.

So, what do we do about that when we live in a world that is

commercially driven or driven by power dynamics?

That means that fear is just a great motivator and a great way to influence.

I think we have to protect our minds with meditation.

Does this mean like throw your phone away and don't go outside?

What does it mean?

No, don't throw your phone away.

Don't go and run away to the mountains.

Learn to face the fear.

Learn to be fearless in a frightened world.

And I think this is something very practical because I do this through practicing microscopic moments of meditation in busy situations.

What does that mean?

So I might be standing in a queue and I'll feel the ground under my feet.

I might be in an airport queuing up.

And instead of going into that impatience thing and the stressy mode or checking my phone,

I'll do a moment of meditation.

Something that's very important to me is to meditate every day, sitting down and doing it kind of formally, but also these micro moments throughout the day, tiny moments where you just become aware of yourself, become aware of the ground under your feet, become aware of your shoulders, drop your shoulders, be aware of them, become aware of your breathing.

And I find this if you do this in queues and traffic jams, it changes your entire reality.

Because what are you doing?

You're rewiring your own brain.

You know how whenever we're in a stuck situation, like a queue or a traffic jam, we are wired to respond with tension and impatience.

But if you do a micro moment of mindfulness, you're changing the wiring.

You're teaching yourself that you can meet stress.

in a calm way.

You can be okay with being stuck in the traffic.

So what that does is it then makes you more fearless because you're almost like looking forward to the next traffic jam.

Whereas most of us are just reacting to situations.

Instead of reacting, you're thinking, bring it on.

There is a gap, isn't there, between what happens and how we react.

That's the crucial gap, the gap between impulse and action.

Because so much is reaction.

So much,

I think we spend so much of our lives just reacting.

In the I feel hungry, so I eat, somebody says hello, I say hello, but even on a moment-to-moment basis, how much are we consciously living and how much are we just reacting?

And so, when we can find that gap between the impulse and the action and make a different choice,

I think it's almost like in every moment we're standing at a fork in the road.

In every moment, one road is the road of reaction, and the other road is the road of response.

Meditation helps you pause and see you could make a choice.

I don't have to get stressed out in traffic.

I could instead be mindful.

Or I don't have to get, I don't have to, my colleague at work is grumpy.

I don't have to bite their head off and then regret it.

I could, I could hold back.

So you say meditation is the solution to many of the things we've talked about today, including the response versus reaction fork in the road.

Yeah.

So if you were making a plan for me from this day onwards on how to implement meditation in my life,

what would that plan look like?

First of all, chuck all those things away.

Okay, all of this stuff on the desk.

Paraphernalia.

Okay, so on the desk, I have like a sound healing bowl, some incense, some rings, some little, I don't even know what these are.

Yeah.

So we're going to chuck all the paraphernalia away.

In the bin.

Okay, we're going to bin all of it.

Okay.

Let me.

You know, you don't need any equipment.

There's a lot of spiritual tat, isn't there?

I mean, you just said it.

You know, it's about you and your mind.

It's not about having

little symbols and incense, and you don't need it.

And okay, what is the plan?

The plan is to start with 10 minutes a day.

Okay, 10 minutes a day.

When?

Ideally, morning.

Okay.

Simply because you're starting your day right.

And your cortisol level is highest in the morning.

When you wake up, there's a spike of cortisol.

Bring it down with meditation.

So I get up, I check my emails, check my WhatsApp, then meditate.

I'm joking.

If you want.

No, no, tell me the optimal way you're going to be my.

Get up straight away and meditate.

Okay, get up straight away and meditate.

Because you're starting your day right.

And 10 minutes is enough to start with.

And the beauty of this is that, you know, they can show in brain scans that 10 minutes a day, after four days, there'll be visible changes in your brain.

So knowing that keeps you going because you think, okay, this literally is like weight training.

I'm going to get muscle.

And what do I do?

So I sit down somewhere.

You sit down.

And you're going to focus on your breathing.

But what I find really crucial is that you are not just launching yourself into it, you are introducing a bit of compassion into the process.

And this is what elevates the meditation from being just a kind of brain gym into being something that takes you to a much more kind of like spiritual realm of it.

And it connects in with what we were talking about earlier about learning to be more compassionate to yourself and others.

So you start with that intention.

So you start by just settling and sitting.

You know, some people sit cross-legged on the floor, but it's also okay on a chair.

But on the chair, there should be some sense of posture.

So you're sitting up straight.

And you would start with setting the intention.

And I don't mean an intention such as, oh, today I want this, I want that.

It's the bigger intention.

Why am I meditating?

I am meditating for not only myself, but for all living beings.

I'm doing this for me and the world.

And I'm not trying to fool myself by thinking if I do my meditation, somehow wars will end or whatever.

No, it's more that if I do this, this will help me become more effective in the world and spread more love and compassion.

So that's the reason.

So you're setting that intention with your thinking for a few moments,

and then you're going to start to be aware of yourself.

So, okay,

so let's just try this.

So take a moment to set the intention of compassion,

making the intention that you're doing the practice for yourself and others.

And now just become aware of your hands.

Maybe your hands are resting on your knees or your legs.

And feel that there's a lot of nerve endings in the fingers, so it's easy to start here.

where you just feel the contact between your skin and your clothing.

You're aware of your hands resting on your legs.

Bring the focus up to your shoulders.

Most of us have tense shoulders because we're on our phone or behind a desk.

So, as you're aware of your shoulders, the tension can just drop away.

Bring your focus to the front of your body.

Start to notice your breathing.

The trick here is not to try to breathe or go into deep breathing, but just let your breath be natural.

and focus on the rising and falling of your chest or your belly with each breath.

And when you realize your mind has wandered, gently come back to the breath.

Now you can make the focus more precise by feeling the air in your nose or your mouth.

If you can breathe through your nose, then do that.

Otherwise the mouth and you're sensing the air as it comes in and out of your nostrils or your lips.

You can feel the air brushing against the skin at the edge of your nose or your mouth.

And then you'll realize your mind has gone somewhere and you gently bring it back.

Okay, and to end the session, we'll just do a short one for now.

Take another moment to think about compassion.

You're dedicating your practice to freedom, compassion, and happiness for yourself and all beings.

And stop there.

I mean, that was short, but it gives you an idea of the process.

And one major warning

is

you trip yourself up if you try and think, well, did it go well?

Partly because of the culture we're in and how everything's about sensation.

I think we only think something's working if it makes us feel something.

And meditation is very different.

You know,

when I first started meditating, I described how I really hated it and found it, you know, really stressful.

One thing I remember that happened to me was I started to do quite a lot of it because I thought, okay, I'm going to get into this thing and do it and become like a pro.

And I was doing loads of it.

and finding it was making me feel more unhappy.

And I was feeling this kind of sense of like sinking feeling in my chest.

And I thought, you know, I'd struggled with depression anyway.

I thought it's making me more depressed.

And I went to Rinpoche, my teacher, and I said,

I'm doing loads of it.

It's making me depressed.

He said, it's nothing to do with the meditation.

It's how you are.

He said, you're a junkie.

You're using your meditation like a drug.

I said, what do you mean?

He said, well, I think you're sitting there waiting for it to kind of like come on.

You're waiting for it to give you a high.

And it's so true because I realized I'd been sitting there

like getting addicted to it and thinking, okay, I'm going to do my meditation,

right?

I've done five minutes.

Where's the bliss?

When am I going to feel good?

And what he was trying to tell me is that if I'm trying to make myself feel good, I'm already coming from a place of lack.

You know what I mean?

I'm already saying to myself, I don't feel good.

So I'm actually promoting

a sense of lack.

So how do we perceive the meditation then?

If it's not something just give up judgment, just do it, just do it, just do it, and it's not going well, going badly.

I like it, I don't like it.

You just do it and try to let go of quality control.

I really need to start doing it.

My partner, she's so great.

She does every morning for like 20, 20, 30 minutes.

So, why didn't you sit next to her?

She said this to me.

What stops you?

What stops me?

Hmm.

I mean, it's there on tap.

She's doing it every morning.

What's stopping you sitting next to her?

I think.

I think one of the things that comes to mind is how uncomfortable I feel in silence and

the idea of like silence and being

because she's there.

Would you be okay better on your own then?

No, it's just like silence with my own thoughts.

I spend a lot of time trying to kind of

not,

I spend a lot of time trying to distract myself.

Don't we all?

That's welcome to the modern world.

I'm pretty extreme.

Are you?

Yeah, I'm pretty extreme.

So like if I go into the shower, I have to have something playing, something talking, a podcast.

It could be the news, it could be YouTube.

If I'm, no matter where I am, I always, even when I go to sleep, I have to be listening to something.

So I've like almost wired my brain in the opposite way where there's always something.

Yeah, I went through a phase where I couldn't eat unless I was also watching something.

I mean, yeah, I mean, I do that.

I can't

do that.

Unless there's something playing.

But that's why meditation is perfect for you.

Yeah, I know.

Tell me about that.

Because this is giving you a way to find a different way to experience yourself.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, I'm sure you exercise.

Yeah.

So you go to the gym.

Yeah.

And that's challenging.

Yeah.

And you're pushing your muscles, and there's a kind of like there's an effort required.

Do you know what it is?

Same thing.

Same thing.

With the gym, I know that if I go, my muscles are going to grow.

I'm going to be stronger.

I'm going to be healthier, happier, all those things.

And because I've never done meditation, I don't actually have evidence of the upside.

Just have a brain scan after four days and you'll see.

That's why I asked you the question about you before and you after.

Yeah.

What is the difference?

And if whoever's listening to this right now,

can you give them a before and after picture of how their life will be practically different if they implement just 10 minutes a day meditating?

Okay, so I find it really inspiring to know that there are visible changes in the brain scan after four days.

You don't necessarily feel those changes, but knowing that gives you faith and confidence.

Just like you know if you eat healthy food,

your body will improve, your health will improve.

So knowing that is a good thing.

In terms of seeing the results, everybody's different.

There's no, you can't draw a graph.

You can't say if you do X amount of days, you will reach this level of calm or focus.

But what happens is, as you start to meditate, after a few days or weeks, you just start to feel you can handle stuff better.

So for me,

my main practice is very much connected to what I was talking about before with...

trying to sit with discomfort and stop pushing it away.

And that's a total revolution in my life.

I was always on the run, always.

I think we fail to realize that actually our entire

human experience is just

in our minds.

Does that make sense, what I'm trying to say there?

Because I'm there asking you about like what's the upside of this, whatever.

But it's falling into the trap of not realizing that everything I will experience today is actually formed in my own mind.

That's the whole reason for meditation, is to know that everything is dependent on your mind.

The good and the bad.

Everything.

So instead of being so obsessed with the details of what's going on, go to the source.

Yeah.

Go to the source, the projector rather than the movie.

Go to the source

and change that and transform that and work on that.

So, how has your projector changed in the last 30 years?

I'm definitely a happier person.

I'm definitely more at peace with myself.

That negative voice doesn't come up.

You know, that self-hatred has really kind of like,

what's the word, kind of like,

yeah, gone away.

And I'm happier.

And

I feel so, so lucky to have tools that I know I can use when I'm suffering.

You know, for the last few years, I've suffered quite a lot of ill health because I had really, really severe COVID right at the start of the pandemic, pandemic and it did something to my heart and my lungs.

And since then, I've had, you could call it long COVID, you could call it heart, lung damage, whatever.

So I live with kind of levels of illness that are hard to deal with.

But this practice is something I can do.

I can sit there with an ill body and send love into that body and feel kind of okay.

So it's made me stronger and I can function better.

than before.

But you know, the other thing is I don't really care.

I don't really care whether it's working or not because I trust it and I'm just going to keep going.

And I'm in for the long game.

I'm just going to keep going.

You signed a lifelong vow?

I did.

I have taken vows to be a monk for my life.

Why?

When I put the robes on,

I felt every cell in my body

click.

I mean, it sounds a bit weird, but it just felt like that.

I felt all my cells fall into place.

I just felt really

this is really right for me.

I think it's what I've been looking for all along when it is a way of working with my mind.

I'm not really interested in religion.

I'm not really interested in faith, but I'm really interested in the mind.

And being a monk has given me this opportunity to work on my mind, but also an opportunity to be of some use in the world, like some help to others.

So

let me challenge this a little bit in terms of how I imagine someone listening might respond.

They go, okay, so you went through this process, you worked on your mind, now you've worked on your mind.

No, no, working.

It's not over.

Okay.

Total work in progress.

And this is part of the misconception is someone will listen and say, well, you've worked on your mind now, so go live now.

No, it's an ongoing process.

I'm still a mess.

I'm still a mess, but I'm okay with being a mess.

That is a huge difference is that I still get stressed, I still get upset, but I'm really gentle with myself in a way that I never knew how to be.

I was always, you're so disgusting.

What's wrong with you?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

That's gone.

Now I'm okay with myself.

And that's such, that is happiness.

That really has made me happier.

So it's for me, it's not about, oh, you've done it.

And now,

it's ongoing.

What is the most important thing we didn't talk about that we should have talked about as it relates to the suffering that my viewers are probably experiencing in their own life?

You know, what's missing always is we can talk about this stuff, but but are we going to do it?

And what's really missing for so many people is they will listen to this episode or they will read a book about meditation or see a video and it all sounds great, but then we get busy and forget to do it.

What's missing for everybody is the doing it.

How do we jump from being interested in something to actually doing it?

I mean, there's a joke which is the definition of a Buddhist is somebody who's either meditating or feeling bad that they're not meditating.

And that is it, isn't it?

It's a bit like exercise.

We know we should be doing it.

So for me,

the missing link is

people try and force themselves to meditate because they know it's good for them.

And then it's a hopeless process.

They won't do it because it becomes another should

on the to-do list.

I think the only way to become really enthusiastic about doing it every day is to really think

about it and realize that it will give you what you were looking for anyway from

the coffee, the drugs, the alcohol, the sex, the whatever it is you're into.

Whatever we're looking for out there,

meditation, it was happiness, it was freedom, it was release.

The only place you can find that is in your mind because going down those roads is just taking you further into needing more.

So, so I think that the thinking process that helps people meditate every day is to think about how it will give you what you were looking for anyway.

And then you want to do it.

Then you, then you feel like, oh, okay.

We have no sense of exhaustion when it comes to chasing our addictions, do we?

So imagine if we could meditate with that kind of energy.

I often think maybe I need to go do some kind of

meditation retreat as well, just to get me sort of started and just have someone there with me who can

help me think through some of these things.

That can be a good thing.

Just to get started.

It doesn't have to be four years.

Yeah,

like a weekend, three days, five days, two days.

That can be a good thing.

And that's why Buddhist centers are good places because they offer that.

And there's never a kind of, you've got to sign along the dotted line and say, I'm now a Buddhist.

We're so not interested in...

converting people to Buddhism.

Yeah, go to a retreat.

Is Buddhism growing?

Yeah.

I imagine it is.

You know why it's growing?

It's because it doesn't try to attract followers.

and because of that it grows interesting and also because of everything else that's just going on in the world at the moment

with you know people feeling more isolated lonely purposeless depression suicidality all of these things we're seeing a lot especially in young men as well the stats around young men and their suicidal ideation and their feelings of purposelessness and their loneliness stats are worse than women's as well but i think yes the the way the world is with all of these challenges and negative things, at the same time, what's hugely growing in modern culture is people getting more interested in their own minds.

There are more and more people going for psychotherapy, counseling, meditation, any kind of discipline that helps us to understand our minds better.

That interest is growing.

So

we're in a really exciting phase in history where people are wanting to transform their minds, wanting to take control of consciousness.

It's because we've had something fail us.

Maybe we're waking up to realizing that the system hasn't worked for us.

We've created a kind of gilded cage for ourselves,

this beautiful material world that is also running out of resources, so it's not going to be able to serve us much longer if we carry on abusing the planet.

So we have created our own prison and now we're looking for the way out.

Turns out it wasn't the individualism and the materialism

after all.

maybe it was always there inside us.

That's what Buddhism would say: that

we are Buddha within.

We all have a sleeping Buddha within us.

And we have potential.

We have great capacity for awakening, great capacity to help others.

It's just like a crystal covered in layers and layers and layers of mud.

And we need to clear the mud away.

We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they've left it for.

And the question that has been left for you:

what are the ways that you express your love and appreciation for the people who matter to you in your personal or professional life?

I

don't do this very well all the time, but I try to be there for them when they're going through a hard time.

Because I used to find it really scary and I'd run away and I'd close down.

I try to, in the same way as I try to move towards my own discomfort, I try to be there with other people when they're uncomfortable and not judge.

I try that.

I'm sure I fail a lot, but I try.

A friend of mine described that as sitting in the mud with them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We often try and fix and correct and

yeah,

I see myself trying to do that, give advice, whatever.

It's not about that.

It's about being with the person.

Being with them without judging them.

Thank you so much for what you do.

You've got these incredible books, which I'm going to recommend everybody check out, both Sunday Times bestsellers, I believe.

And A Monk's Guide to Happiness, Meditation in the 21st Century.

And this book is called Handbook for Hard Times, A Monk's Guide to Fearless Living.

I think that your message is more important now than it's ever been because there's, I mean, much of the reason why I've probably stumbled across Buddhism is for the same reasons that many people are, which is it feels intuitively like the answers we've been given in the way of life that we're all living is failing us in some way.

And we know that we can feel it inside ourselves, but the answers that we see to

as antidotes to that feeling aren't much better all the time.

And they're again, often they're about self or it's about, you know, join this group of people that are doing this sort of thing over here.

Or there's this religious, you know, group that you can join.

But actually Buddhism offers us an alternative approach, which is to go inside ourselves and to

alleviate ourselves from the suffering that we've self-imposed by

understanding that maybe the answers we were looking for were inside the whole time.

And I'm so glad that people like you do podcasts like this because you're getting the message out there into the world and it's a message that I think is so unbelievably important.

And I think maybe, maybe, just maybe,

maybe you've persuaded me today to just give it a shot.

Yeah.

And that's the hard thing because it's good, it's good enough.

It's all well enough knowing about something.

But then what will I do tomorrow morning?

When you sit there tomorrow morning and your mind starts racing,

whatever you do, don't feel like you failed.

Just remind yourself that the thoughts actually make your meditation stronger.

Because if coming back to the breath is what you're trying to do, you have to have somewhere to come back from.

The thought that took you away is exactly what brings you back.

So bring it on.

The more thoughts, the better.

Okay.

Thank you.

I'm so appreciative of you.

And thank you for spreading spreading the words that you're spreading because, as I said, you're going to be

saving a lot of people from a lot of pain and suffering, but also giving them

an alternative approach to sitting with it with compassion.

So thank you.

Thank you.

It's really lovely to spend time with you.

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